Hi there,
I am new to this forum so I am unsure if I am allowed to mention brand names and mg so in case I am not allowed I won't. I was on a relatively low dose of estrogen and I was getting no breast growth. I increased by 1mg and my breasts started growing very rapidly (a little too rapidly) so I cut back down and the nodule completely diminished and went back to normal (I only descreased for about 2 months). I increased it again to the dosage I was on that caused the breast growth but nothing happened - was on that dosage for 1 year, nothing was happening. So I increased it by another mg - still nothing - it's as though no matter what I do I am now I am unable to get any breast growth.
I am not on anything else except estrogen and don't wish to be on any anti-angrogens. Does anyone know why this is happening and what I can do as I am completely confused. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
I'm guessing that you are self-medding - that is not something we discuss here. :police:
Knowing what your various levels are based on your blood work would be handy.
You are playing russian roulette with your health.
You need to get a medic and an endocrinologist to look after you. Playing with hormones is a very good way of permanently damaging your health.
Yeah, mikidiki, we don't condone or encourage self-med'ing on this site. It is a dangerous practice. We recently had one member develop a deep vein thrombosis, and now is off all HRT.
It is important, also, to have your hormone levels regularly checked by a lab, to make sure you are not ruining your liver, that your electrolyte levels are all within normal parameters, and to have competent medical supervision.
This is from the Terms of Service which you agreed to follow when you signed up. Please read the rest of them.
8. The discussion of hormone replacement therapy(HRT) and it's medications are permitted, with the following limitations:
A. You may not advocate for or against a specific medication or combinations of medication for personal gain. This is strictly prohibited.
B. You may not discuss the means to acquire HRT medications without a prescription. The discussion of self medication without a doctors supervision is prohibited.
C. The discussion of recommended or actual dosages is strongly discouraged to prevent information obtained on this site from being used to self medicate.
We can not in good conscience condone the self administering of these medications. Not only may self medication be illegal, but HRT medications can cause serious health problems, and many have the potential for life-threatening side effects that can only be detected and prevented with proper medical supervision.
I understand but I guess all I wanted was some advice if others might have experienced the same thing I have.
Quote from: mikidiki on January 14, 2013, 02:59:49 AM
I understand but I guess all I wanted was some advice if others might have experienced the same thing I have.
But honey the reason you are having strange boob growth cycles is that your hormone regime is totally wrong.
We are individuals, it took months to get me on the right mixture and doses. I had reactions to some forms of E and it took work to find the right ones for me. I'm sure you know the symptoms of E toxicity
You probably have not a clue what your SHBG levels are? Without that you are just playing. Do you know your resting T level? Has it dropped, has stayed the same? Do you need AAs? If so which ?
What is your GGT? what was it before you started E? If it has increased has AST gone up as well? What are your Vit D levels? Why is that important?
My endo has been practising gynaecological endocrinology for 30+ years. She had problems working me out.
What on earth good would it be to say others have or have not the same experiences? There is nothing you could do about it.
Find a medic to help you before you harm yourself.
Please.
Cindy
Quote from: Cindy James on January 14, 2013, 01:54:44 AM
You are playing russian roulette with your health.
You need to get a medic and an endocrinologist to look after you. Playing with hormones is a very good way of permanently damaging your health.
Quote from: Cindy James on January 14, 2013, 03:18:57 AM
But honey the reason you are having strange boob growth cycles is that your hormone regime is totally wrong.
We are individuals, it took months to get me on the right mixture and doses. I had reactions to some forms of E and it took work to find the right ones for me. I'm sure you know the symptoms of E toxicity
You probably have not a clue what your SHBG levels are? Without that you are just playing. Do you know your resting T level? Has it dropped, has stayed the same? Do you need AAs? If so which ?
What is your GGT? what was it before you started E? If it has increased has AST gone up as well? What are your Vit D levels? Why is that important?
My endo has been practising gynaecological endocrinology for 30+ years. She had problems working me out.
What on earth good would it be to say others have or have not the same experiences? There is nothing you could do about it.
Find a medic to help you before you harm yourself.
Please.
Cindy
^^^^^^^^ all of the above, please. For your own health and wellbeing.
Huggs
Catherine
Well, I have no idea how much estrogen you're taking, but hopefully you're not exceeding the guidelines most doctors are supposed to follow; they're there for a reason. If you want to get good hormone results, though, then I would suggest that you take spironolactone or another androgen blocker to supplement your estrogen - again, not exceeding guidelines. I know you said you don't want to take androgen blockers, but it's an essential part of HRT if you aren't castrated. It helps the feminizing process, and it effectively reduces the risks inherent in taking tons of estrogen alone.
If you have to self-medicate, it's important to get your blood tested. Raising your hormone intake blindly is an incredible risk to your health, as has been said multiple times in this thread already.
Honestly, you could probably get a doctor to help you out with all this. There might not be a knowledgeable doctor in your area, but they don't have to know much about HRT to make sure your blood tests look healthy enough. I'm in a bit of a similar situation, where all doctors within quite a large radius are relatively new at administrating HRT, but at least I know what I'm doing is safe.
Other than that, there's not much to say, besides saying that while guidelines are helpful to follow... with how individual everyone's response is to hormones, to follow them alone is only a guided shot into the dark.
I hope you'll ensure your safety. If this is a do-or-die thing for you, then I hope it doesn't come to the dying part, and if waiting to do things safely puts you at great risk of suicide, then I hope it all works out for you. If suicide isn't much of a concern, here, then you are recklessly endangering yourself for vanity's sake - and if that's so, then I hope you re-examine your motivation, and re-evaluate the risks and rewards of what you're doing. Vanity isn't worth playing with your life over.
You've reached the limit of how fast a blind man can run. Don't gamble on not hitting something as you quicken your pace further.
Quote from: mikidiki on January 14, 2013, 02:59:49 AM
I understand but I guess all I wanted was some advice if others might have experienced the same thing I have.
Well, we can't talk about self-medding here. Even if someone did have the same experience as you, they wouldn't be allowed to say anything. A person's health takes priority over all else, after all.
I appreciate everyone's responses and no, I am definitely not exceeding the guidelines, in fact I am considerably under. I do get my hormones prescribed but the doctor does not know anything about it. I have had my bloods tested not that long ago and everything was ok. It just bothers me that things were going ok and I chose to cut down but now when I go back to the original dosage (and even higher) my breasts just don't want to grow! It's as though my body is saying "You had your chance and you chose to cut down so I'm not letting your breasts grow no matter how much estrogen you take"
if your doctor does not know anything about it then how are you getting prescriptions?
The solution is simple, do it the proper way ... go to a endo. If you self med and die even life insurance wont pay out to your family, even if you get any bad effects insurance wont play because of what your doing.
Its simple stop risking your like and go find a endo.
Quote from: Annah on January 14, 2013, 12:35:31 PM
if your doctor does not know anything about it then how are you getting prescriptions?
He just prescribes the hormones I ask him to.
Yes, I will see an endo
I am happy to hear, mikidiki, that you are under some sort of medical care.
Getting your various hormone, enzyme, and blood chemistry levels checked regularly is very important. I do it every three months, but I have other medical issues going on.
With that said, regarding breast growth, there appears not to be a direct relationship between breast growth on HRT and your dosage. The old adage is - "Your mileage may vary." Things like that can go in spurts.
Which country are you in?
Well, as long as you are getting your blood tested, and you can confidently ensure your safety, you're good. Your dose should be tailored to put your E and T levels within appropriate ranges - the doses you take should not exceed guidelines, but as long as you are under them, the doses only matter for what they do to your levels.
If your levels are in the female-typical range, then you can't really expect more than you're getting. An endo might know a little more, or might see something you don't/can't, but I suppose that doesn't matter at this point. If you aren't in that range, then you'll need to up your estrogen within safe levels to get there - and you'll probably need to add spiro to get the appropriate result.
I can't say anything specific, of course, but there's no harm in reiterating common sense. I haven't had much breast growth to speak of at all in my two years, so I don't have much experience with your situation.
I feel I should add that great growth is also heavily dependant on factors other than just E level.. Oh, and without an anti-androgen you will always be fighting an uphill battle..
It's very awkward not being able to mention dosages. I find it frustrating that it's a forum yet you can't get advice if people don't know the full story. Is there any way I can at least mention the mg so I can make 100% I am not over the limit?
Anyway.......I live in Australia. The original doctor I spoke to who deals with gay/transgender health was not willing to even talk to me unless I'm living as a female 24/7 for a full year so he was no help whatsoever. I then went to my local GP who knew absolutely nothing about it said that I am a trial patient and he is happy to prescribe me what I want as long as I am aware that he knows nothing about it and the risks of taking estrogen. In all honesty, he didn't even know if there were any risks in estrogen for males. Originally I was "self medicating" but I wanted to do the right thing and see my GP but in a way I am still "self medicating" because he has no idea. He wrote out a referral to an endo for me but not long after when I increased to the dosage that caused my breasts to grow I did not bother following it up with an endo (my referall has since lapsed). I am going back to get another referral. However as previously mentioned I am now flat chested on the dosage I was on that originally caused my breasts to grow.
Going by lots of websites the recommended dosages do differ but by the majority of websites I am under the recommended dosage per day. I have tried anti-androgen in the past but I did not like the effects as it completely decreased by sex drive. Strangely though the estrogen has increased my sex drive - not sure if that's normal or not but that doesn't bother me lol.
So that's my story.
Quote from: mikidiki on January 15, 2013, 12:10:39 AM
It's very awkward not being able to mention dosages. I find it frustrating that it's a forum yet you can't get advice if people don't know the full story. Is there any way I can at least mention the mg so I can make 100% I am not over the limit?
Short answer: no.
Quote from: mikidiki on January 15, 2013, 12:10:39 AM
It's very awkward not being able to mention dosages. I find it frustrating that it's a forum yet you can't get advice if people don't know the full story. Is there any way I can at least mention the mg so I can make 100% I am not over the limit?
The restriction on dosage info is to prevent people from using that info to self med - something that can be very dangerous, something one of the members here recently discovered. DVT is no fun - and can mean the end of any hormones at all.
QuoteAnyway.......I live in Australia. The original doctor I spoke to who deals with gay/transgender health was not willing to even talk to me unless I'm living as a female 24/7 for a full year so he was no help whatsoever. I then went to my local GP who knew absolutely nothing about it said that I am a trial patient and he is happy to prescribe me what I want as long as I am aware that he knows nothing about it and the risks of taking estrogen. In all honesty, he didn't even know if there were any risks in estrogen for males. Originally I was "self medicating" but I wanted to do the right thing and see my GP but in a way I am still "self medicating" because he has no idea. He wrote out a referral to an endo for me but not long after when I increased to the dosage that caused my breasts to grow I did not bother following it up with an endo (my referall has since lapsed). I am going back to get another referral. However as previously mentioned I am now flat chested on the dosage I was on that originally caused my breasts to grow.
I'm not sure where in Australia you are, but there are plenty of therapists and doctors around who follow the WPATH Standards of Care.. There's really no excuse for self-medding here in Australia. Both my therapist and gyno are members of ANZPATH (Aus & NZ Professional Association of Trans Health) and are also members of WPATH (World Professional Association of Trans Health). I'm in Adelaide. I know of similar services being available in most states. Your GP is also acting in a manner that in contrary to AMA guidelines.. Heck, I know a gyno in Melbourne who is willing to treat me should I ever move back there.
Now, as far as breast growth is concerned.. I am under the care of an experienced medical professional. I've been on E for about 20 months and was on an anti-androgen for the first year - I had some issues with it and had to stop taking it. My E levels are within the norms for a woman. My T level is way below the norms for a woman. My gyno is generally happy with my other results - things like LFT, FSH, SHBG etc, etc.. And after all that, I still have less than a AA cup. The women in my family are generally large breasted. I've had plenty of other physical changes, just not much in the way of boobs. You may never get particularly large boobs - just like some natal women never have much.. Diet, genetics, hormone receptivity are all factors that come in to play.
QuoteGoing by lots of websites the recommended dosages do differ but by the majority of websites I am under the recommended dosage per day. I have tried anti-androgen in the past but I did not like the effects as it completely decreased by sex drive. Strangely though the estrogen has increased my sex drive - not sure if that's normal or not but that doesn't bother me lol.
So that's my story.
It's good that you have noticed the differences between the various websites.. There's a reason there is such variation - HRT is something that is highly dependant on the person. Some things work for some and not for others.. I was on oral E.. It started off fine, but then my E level started a slow, steady decline - which we caught before it got too low. I'm now on an alternate delivery method, which is working even better than the oral delivery - and no, it's not shots..
You really need to find a proper doctor/endo to look after you. There are plenty around. Where in Australia are you? I'm in Qld.
I'm in Adelaide and I am a member of ANZPATH so I can suggest a therapist for you.
Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on January 15, 2013, 12:44:21 AM
The restriction on dosage info is to prevent people from using that info to self med - something that can be very dangerous, something one of the members here recently discovered. DVT is no fun - and can mean the end of any hormones at all.
I'm not sure where in Australia you are, but there are plenty of therapists and doctors around who follow the WPATH Standards of Care.. There's really no excuse for self-medding here in Australia. Both my therapist and gyno are members of ANZPATH (Aus & NZ Professional Association of Trans Health) and are also members of WPATH (World Professional Association of Trans Health). I'm in Adelaide. I know of similar services being available in most states. Your GP is also acting in a manner that in contrary to AMA guidelines.. Heck, I know a gyno in Melbourne who is willing to treat me should I ever move back there.
Now, as far as breast growth is concerned.. I am under the care of an experienced medical professional. I've been on E for about 20 months and was on an anti-androgen for the first year - I had some issues with it and had to stop taking it. My E levels are within the norms for a woman. My T level is way below the norms for a woman. My gyno is generally happy with my other results - things like LFT, FSH, SHBG etc, etc.. And after all that, I still have less than a AA cup. The women in my family are generally large breasted. I've had plenty of other physical changes, just not much in the way of boobs. You may never get particularly large boobs - just like some natal women never have much.. Diet, genetics, hormone receptivity are all factors that come in to play.
It's good that you have noticed the differences between the various websites.. There's a reason there is such variation - HRT is something that is highly dependant on the person. Some things work for some and not for others.. I was on oral E.. It started off fine, but then my E level started a slow, steady decline - which we caught before it got too low. I'm now on an alternate delivery method, which is working even better than the oral delivery - and no, it's not shots..
Thanks for the info. Do you think it's a good idea that I make an appt to see an endo? Would any endo be able to assist me? I live in Melbourne.
Quote from: mikidiki on January 15, 2013, 12:51:37 AM
Thanks for the info. Do you think it's a good idea that I make an appt to see an endo? Would any endo be able to assist me? I live in Melbourne.
You are going to need to see a gender therapist first.
I know some of you reading are going to suggest that under the V7 SoC's, no therapy is required - go back and read them carefully..
Does anybody else use transdermal? My doctor says it reduces the chances of clots...
What our resident physician (Cindy) say about this?
Quote from: NotThereYet on January 15, 2013, 01:14:33 AM
Does anybody else use transdermal? My doctor says it reduces the chances of clots...
What our resident physician (Cindy) say about this?
Hee Heee
No specific medical advice from me.
Quote from: Cindy James on January 15, 2013, 01:26:24 AM
Hee Heee
No specific medical advice from me.
Come on, doctor, what should I do? It hurts when I do that...
:-)
Just came back from GP - got a referral to see an Endo - he wasn't sure if she will be able to assist me though as he believes she only sees biological females but he isn't sure. I will call up to find out if she sees transgender patients.
Also got a pathology request to check for: FBE, u & e, chol, F.gluc, lfts, testosterone, oestrogen
I believe that covers everything. In relation to ANZPATH - one of the doctors on there is the one that I originally contacted who to be honest was not very helpful and told me that he isn't going to help me as I would need to be living as a full time female for 1 year before he would even think of prescribing any female hormones etc. Hence why the reason I chose to self medicate.
Quote from: NotThereYet on January 15, 2013, 01:58:57 AM
Come on, doctor, what should I do? It hurts when I do that...
:-)
If I am not mistaken, Cindy is a pathologist, which is a very technical medical specialty. She is the best in Australia. The best.
Quote from: mikidiki on January 15, 2013, 02:08:42 AM
Just came back from GP - got a referral to see an Endo - he wasn't sure if she will be able to assist me though as he believes she only sees biological females but he isn't sure. I will call up to find out if she sees transgender patients.
Also got a pathology request to check for: FBE, u & e, chol, F.gluc, lfts, testosterone, oestrogen
I believe that covers everything. In relation to ANZPATH - one of the doctors on there is the one that I originally contacted who to be honest was not very helpful and told me that he isn't going to help me as I would need to be living as a full time female for 1 year before he would even think of prescribing any female hormones etc. Hence why the reason I chose to self medicate.
That requirement, to have 1-year RLE
before HRT was cruel. I understand the need for a psychological evaluation. I hope the new Standards of Care will eliminate that outdated relic of a regulation.
Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on January 15, 2013, 02:21:51 AM
That requirement, to have 1-year RLE before HRT was cruel. I understand the need for a psychological evaluation. I hope the new Standards of Care will eliminate that outdated relic of a regulation.
Well everytime I go to him for my regular STD check up he brushes it off when I mention being on estrogen - he tells me to speak to the doctor who prescribes it - he won't even check my blood work! Melbourne seems very archaic when it comes to trans assistance. Not many people are willing to assist you unless you walk in the room in "drag" everytime I see him and this person is one of the top doctors who deals with this sort of thing!
Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on January 15, 2013, 02:17:36 AM
If I am not mistaken, Cindy is a pathologist, which is a very technical medical specialty. She is the best in Australia. The best.
At what?
Quincindy
Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on January 15, 2013, 02:17:36 AM
If I am not mistaken, Cindy is a pathologist, which is a very technical medical specialty. She is the best in Australia. The best.
I believe you. The thing is that she was supposed to reply:" just don't do that!", but she didn't. So, either in Australia they don't have this very old joke about people seeking free medical advice from physicians at social events (like parties, etc), or she's heard it so many times that she simply ignores it when she hears it now. :-)
I did post but I didn't hit the reply button! I'm talking on skype at the same time and must have got distracted.
Last time I got a plumber she asked me for $250 for a ten minute tap correction. I told her that was more I charged as a pathologist! She said yes that's why I changed professions.
Quote from: Cindy James on January 15, 2013, 02:41:56 AM
I did post but I didn't hit the reply button! I'm talking on skype at the same time and must have got distracted.
Last time I got a plumber she asked me for $250 for a ten minute tap correction. I told her that was more I charged as a pathologist! She said yes that's why I changed professions.
Also funny! :-)
On that note, good night Cindy, and everybody else: I am going to bed.
Andrea :-)
Quote from: Cindy James on January 15, 2013, 02:41:56 AM
I did post but I didn't hit the reply button! I'm talking on skype at the same time and must have got distracted.
Last time I got a plumber she asked me for $250 for a ten minute tap correction. I told her that was more I charged as a pathologist! She said yes that's why I changed professions.
Cindy, I am unable to reply to the messages - I cannot locate a reply button ???
Sorry you need 15 posts.
I'll contact you with my email address
Quote from: NotThereYet on January 15, 2013, 01:58:57 AM
Come on, doctor, what should I do? It hurts when I do that...
:-)
Seriously?
You do what your own Dr has told you to do, unless you're a total fool.
Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on January 15, 2013, 02:21:51 AM
That requirement, to have 1-year RLE before HRT was cruel. I understand the need for a psychological evaluation. I hope the new Standards of Care will eliminate that outdated relic of a regulation.
The new SOC say very explicitly (page 25) that it is up to the patient when he/she is ready for hormones.
The 1-year RLE requirement was worse than cruel it was stupid and counterproductive. Trans people simply got do-it-yourself HRT on the Internet and destroyed their health. What was supposed to be protecting us was killing us.
Quote from: mikidiki on January 15, 2013, 02:08:42 AM
Just came back from GP - got a referral to see an Endo - he wasn't sure if she will be able to assist me though as he believes she only sees biological females but he isn't sure. I will call up to find out if she sees transgender patients.
Endo is unlikely to treat you without a referral from a therapist.. An assessment by a therapist is still needed under the new SoC's.
QuoteAlso got a pathology request to check for: FBE, u & e, chol, F.gluc, lfts, testosterone, oestrogen
Nope, missed a few of the things my gyno checks.. And unless you actually know how to read them, you are not getting any real benefit..
QuoteI believe that covers everything. In relation to ANZPATH - one of the doctors on there is the one that I originally contacted who to be honest was not very helpful and told me that he isn't going to help me as I would need to be living as a full time female for 1 year before he would even think of prescribing any female hormones etc. Hence why the reason I chose to self medicate.
None of the Melbourne-based therapists I spoke to wanted me to have any RLE prior to hormones - this was mid-2010. The last 2 versions of the Standards of Care had no requirements for RLE before hormones. I can't comment further back than that, I've never read them. I'm pretty sure I could pick up my phone tomorrow and find a therapist to start out with - one that doesn't require anything before hand. How many have you actually spoken to? Or are you trying to avoid seeing a therapist because you are not actually a trans person?
EDIT: I've also never had an issue with my libido - while I was on an anti-androgen or not.. Yes, it's changed - but I'm still more than interested and still capable.
Quote from: mikidiki on January 15, 2013, 02:08:42 AM
Just came back from GP - got a referral to see an Endo - he wasn't sure if she will be able to assist me though as he believes she only sees biological females but he isn't sure. I will call up to find out if she sees transgender patients.
Also got a pathology request to check for: FBE, u & e, chol, F.gluc, lfts, testosterone, oestrogen
I believe that covers everything. In relation to ANZPATH - one of the doctors on there is the one that I originally contacted who to be honest was not very helpful and told me that he isn't going to help me as I would need to be living as a full time female for 1 year before he would even think of prescribing any female hormones etc. Hence why the reason I chose to self medicate.
Hi Mikidiki,
As Cindy commented Melbourne is very archaic in their treatment of the TG community. May I suggest you contact the Monash Centre and seek your referrals through there. It is NOT a requirement for 1 year RLE prior to HRT. That's rubbish.
Hope you can get some assistance in Melb.
Huggs
Catherine
Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on January 15, 2013, 07:38:30 AM
Endo is unlikely to treat you without a referral from a therapist.. An assessment by a therapist is still needed under the new SoC's.
Nope, missed a few of the things my gyno checks.. And unless you actually know how to read them, you are not getting any real benefit..
None of the Melbourne-based therapists I spoke to wanted me to have any RLE prior to hormones - this was mid-2010. The last 2 versions of the Standards of Care had no requirements for RLE before hormones. I can't comment further back than that, I've never read them. I'm pretty sure I could pick up my phone tomorrow and find a therapist to start out with - one that doesn't require anything before hand. How many have you actually spoken to? Or are you trying to avoid seeing a therapist because you are not actually a trans person?
EDIT: I've also never had an issue with my libido - while I was on an anti-androgen or not.. Yes, it's changed - but I'm still more than interested and still capable.
I've only contacted one on the list in Melbourne. No, I do not live my life as a female but that is not why I am "avoiding" contacting someone. It's just that the people I have contacted have not been willing to help so you start to lose hope and become disheartened. I had an issue with my libido as soon as I started taking anti-androgens. I will contact someone else on the list tomorrow and also call the endo.
How many hits did you get when you googled gender therapist in Melbourne? I got heaps!!
One? Seems hard work is not your thing.. Maybe hormones and transition are not for you either?
Sorry if I seem a little harsh, but people like you are the reasons the rules end up harder for all.. Even those of us who follow the process.
It seems parts of Melbourne are pretty conservative in treatment modalities at this point in time. I live in Sydney, and I'm a non-transitioner at this point in time due to various factors which I won't go into in this thread.
In any case, I'm on low dose HRT and my prescribing endo is comfortable with what we're doing. My endo is aware that I don't intend to transition at this point in time. If I'm not mistaken, RLE for a year prior to HRT may still be the practice in some parts of the UK under the NHS scheme.
Mikidiki, as you're in Australia, my honest opinion is that there really shouldn't be any reason why you're not under full medical care for your treatment. There's sufficient medical safety net (thank the budget black hole that is Medicare) that you should be able to access the professional help that you need. Other Aussie members of this forum have already mentioned the risks of going it alone, and although I like to DIY, this sort of thing isn't worth the risk in light of what you can get access to IMHO.
A final aside, if what's happening to your libido when your on an anti-androgen is upsetting to you, that can be a sign that full transition may not be the best thing for you. I hope that you're getting some form of therapy to sort out your feelings before you get too far along.
I hope I didn't sound mean, but I do like to see people do the best that they can for their health.
Quote from: spacial on January 15, 2013, 07:00:50 AM
Seriously?
You do what your own Dr has told you to do, unless you're a total fool.
??? Mine was just an old doctors' joke... I don't think I deserve your comment.. . :-(