Well I am confused, I have been told by various people that I can be intersex and transgender, but It is wrong for me to transition, wrong for me to be a woman with a woman, also have been told since I am intersex i need to be celibate, otherwise i am sinning against God. Why are people saying these things?
It sounds to me like you're hanging around with the wrong people.
As a rule of thumb, I have lived my life by the following guiding principle:
I will move towards anyone [anything] that increases my joy.
I will shy away from anyone [anything] that interferes with my joy.
Joy is the meaning of life.
Let my standard of success be the Joy that I achieve in my life.
It sounds to me, Shawn, as though you may be allowing too many people who interfere with your joy to have a bit too much influence in your life.
This is just my casual observation.
Hugs!
Miharu
Who in the world are you hanging around with that you get all these silly ideas from.
Live your life for who you are, forget about IS, forget about TS, be who you are, that is what is important.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on January 15, 2013, 12:42:08 PM
Well I am confused, I have been told by various people that I can be intersex and transgender, but It is wrong for me to transition, wrong for me to be a woman with a woman, also have been told since I am intersex i need to be celibate, otherwise i am sinning against God. Why are people saying these things?
This is a common bias in some religious communities. It seems to be almost the standard position taken in Mormonism, for instance, but they also mess with just about everyone's head when it comes to sex and relationships. It's got to be your choice and your spiritual journey to conclude whether you accept this, or need to move on to a spiritual community that is more accepting and not as coercive as these.
You're asking "Why?" and that's a mystery I can't really answer, even though I have been writing a play about it for the last 20-odd years. Personally, for me, a lot of it goes back to Saint Jerome and some of the other early church "fathers" from about the third to fifth centuries, but that's largely an opinion, and a debate I don't expect to resolve. There's a strong current of body hatred and unease about sexuality that has eroded in Christianity over the centuries, but it tends to come back up in force when sexuality outside of that aimed at reproduction alone is brought into the mix.
There is no sin in what you intend.
Even Jesus didn't create any new sins.
These people are presuming the authority of God, breaking the 3rd commandment. By paying them attention you are essentially accepting their authority, ie, worshiping a different god.
Stand up for yourself and think for yourself,you don't need anyone's approval to live your life the way you want.Stop hanging around with these people and find new friends.I hope you can live the way you want to without interference from others.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on January 15, 2013, 12:42:08 PM
Well I am confused, Why are people saying these things?
Kia Ora Shawn,
A better question to ask your self is "Why am I listening to them?"
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: big kim on January 15, 2013, 03:05:35 PM
Stand up for yourself and think for yourself,you don't need anyone's approval to live your life the way you want.Stop hanging around with these people and find new friends.I hope you can live the way you want to without interference from others.
Easy enough to say. Harder when many of them may be family or life-long friends.
It's a hard choice to make, but I do know at least one person (he does not identify as transsexual -- in active Mormon circles, the term trangender is preferred, since the bias is to accept transgendered individuals, including those who present as the gender they identify with, as long as they don't go as far as SRS... it gets very weird and I can't really describe the reasoning very well, especially not in brief)... anyway, he's a doctor, has done extensive research into the etiology of transgendered identities, and is steadily working to make a case to those in a position to alter policy and interpretation of scripture to come to a position that's more consistent with the realities of intersex conditions (which most faithful Mormons who are transgendered tend to believe includes what would have been described in the past as pre-op transsexuals). He does have the unique advantage of having a personal connection with at least some of the top leaders.
Anyway, my point here is, given your (Shawn's) attachment to the culture you were raised in, you may find it necessary to take on a calling of educating and persuading those in your faith to take another look at their beliefs and scriptural interpretations? Only you can decide if this is something you can handle or not, and whether or not it counts as wasted time.
I wouldn't be doing that, per se, as I distanced myself from the culture and have no leverage to speak of with them. I approach this from a different perspective, one that remains emotionally attached to the spirituality that appeals to those raised in various forms of Christianity, but that also looks at how human bias and sexual insecurities have affected the entire outlook on sexuality and on gender identity. It's more or less a key element in most everything I've written that's intended for any wider exposure.
Dismissing it will not make it disappear. Engaging with it might lead to some further insights, as long as it's done with respect and appreciation for how important a sense of spirituality is in many people's lives. I kind of see this as a modern day adaptation of the shamanistic role that is common for many two spirit people in many other non-Christian cultures.
If you're interested in some readings on gender and early Christianity, I suggest starting with the work of Peter Brown, by the way.
In particular, The Body and Society: Men, Women, and Sexual Renunciation in Early Christianity.
Why do people tell me I can't be a Christian-Pagan-Buddhist? Why do people say I must choose one of the three? Why do people say I can't be bisexual/pansexual if I'm in a committed monogamous relationship?
These are pointless questions, really. But they can hurt when they come from "loved ones" and just be plain old annoying when they come from anyone else.
It could be that our challengers are uncomfortable with us and want us to change so they'll feel better. It could be that our challengers feel they are genuinely concerned for us and want us to avoid that which might harm ourselves. I think that's where my fundie ex-sister-in-law is coming from. She insists she loves me, but to me it feels like raw hate. Fortunately, I rarely see her and now that she's ex-family I pretty much refuse to see her.
The most important voice to listen to in your transition is yours.
Unless they have spoken personally to God, their opinion is just that, reinforced by the prejudices they have been taught. No more valuable than yours, and they have not lived your life so have no idea of what your experiences are.
I would consider transitioning to a denomination or religion more in touch with modern medical knowledge. As the Bible has no definition of "man" or "woman", like most authorities it's all supposition and personal opinion on their part as far as I am concerned.
Karen.
Quote from: Constance on January 15, 2013, 03:38:28 PM
Why do people tell me I can't be a Christian-Pagan-Buddhist? Why do people say I must choose one of the three?
For my mom, who left Mormonism and became Baha'i, it was the IRS. One requirement for maintaining tax-exempt status for religions is exclusivity of membership, even though that makes no doctrinal sense for many religions such as Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism (arguably a philosophy rather than a religion) or Shinto, among many others I know less about.
She had actually asked them to excommunicate her, but it wasn't until she appeared in a local paper as a leader in her Baha'i community that they (Mormons) finally felt inspired to honor her request.
Since you've posted this in the Christian sub-forum, I guess I can use the Bible to offer a suggestion.
"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11)
You'll get a lot of advice from lots of folks with lots of different perspectives, but if you're truly looking for what the Bible says, then you'll do what the Bereans did in this above verse.
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)
An important point for a Christian to consider in any decision is that our desires are to be crucified with Jesus Christ; what we do and live for is no longer ourselves, but Him.
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
Be careful about "following your heart."
Quote from: Incarnadine on January 15, 2013, 04:02:37 PM
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
Be careful about "following your heart."
It may be those who are saying these things who may be misguided by following their hearts, no? I love what Christianity says about humility and human error, but it's something that in practice many Christians find hard to live up to.
Quote from: Elspeth on January 15, 2013, 04:08:24 PM
It may be those who are saying these things who may be misguided by following their hearts, no? I love what Christianity says about humility and human error, but it's something that in practice many Christians find hard to live up to.
If I've learned one thing (and there's more than one thing!) from these experiences, it's that many who call ourselves Christians struggle the most with pride and humility, including myself.
Guess I can agree with that Jeremiah passage for that reason!
Quote from: Incarnadine on January 15, 2013, 04:41:40 PM
If I've learned one thing (and there's more than one thing!) from these experiences, it's that many who call ourselves Christians struggle the most with pride and humility, including myself.
Guess I can agree with that Jeremiah passage for that reason!
One thing that puzzles me, though, is distinguishing between listening to one's heart and hearing the "still, small voice" of God (1 Kings 19:18). And maybe that's where some of the genuine conflicts surrounding this are coming from?
Sidenote, in looking up that verse I realized that the translation I now rely on as more dependable in accuracy than the KJV, translates it as: "a faint murmuring sound" but in the end, it is still God speaking (quietly) to Elijah, following a much louder event, an earthquake and fire.
To me, "listening to one's heart" could mean listening to God, but it could also just mean hearing a deceiver, or grounding one's assumptions on what one desires and covets (which may have more than a little to do with how this could be twisted by some believers into a judgmental set of assumptions about us, coming from a point of view where our heartfelt sense of who we are could be confused, in the view of someone with a cisgendered sense of self and conventional sexual orientation, with their own lusts, desires and sense of shame?
That logical trap is something that I have a hard time with in much of Christianity... it seems like it's almost an airtight system, using the realities of the transgendered to amplify a sense of sexual guilt on those who are cisgendered, and create a lot of the ongoing conflict that surrounds various variations in gender and sexuality? (Peter Brown and others have gone into this in far more depth and subtlety than I can possible manage in this context or the time available for me on this forum).
Quote from: Constance on January 15, 2013, 03:38:28 PM
Why do people tell me I can't be a Christian-Pagan-Buddhist? Why do people say I must choose one of the three? Why do people say I can't be bisexual/pansexual if I'm in a committed monogamous relationship?
People who call themselves Christians yet put the teachings of Jesus secondary to the selective teachings of others.
I once read some extensive claims that Jesus had traveled the far east for many years. After reading his teachings, many of his ideas do seem to bear some resemblance to many Hindu notions.
At the least, the common objections to our path seem flawed. Strictures of the Old Testament, on clothing and hair, are old covenant, and may be considered guidelines at best in light of the New. Furthermore, if this is wrong, so many fashions are equally so.
Likewise, one must ask, if there are sins of the heart in this - pride, jealousy, selfishness - how are they more potent than those same sins in daily life? Or more wrong?
If the objection that God made us male and female is brought up, at the very least intersex people are an exception. And as God makes no mistakes, this signifies that our feelings and natures are likewise not in error. Furthermore, even if God makes no mistakes, we would not take that to mean that a person with a debilitating genetic condition should live as such forever.
Can we not be considered like unto eunuchs, in a way? And as worthy of God's teachings and mercy as the Ethiopian mentioned specifically?
Finally, we come to sexuality. To which I ask, what is the sin? Two like-gened people in a relationship? In which case if I marry a woman I am not a sinner. Or is it dependent on internal gender? In which case, why should I, considering myself a woman, not seek out a man? If both, am I in sin if I remain celibate?
In the end, if you believe, the only person you must be right with is God. And if you believe, you know you can tell if you are without need of human intervention.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on January 15, 2013, 12:42:08 PM
Well I am confused, I have been told by various people that I can be intersex and transgender, but It is wrong for me to transition, wrong for me to be a woman with a woman, also have been told since I am intersex i need to be celibate, otherwise i am sinning against God. Why are people saying these things?
I think the answer is simple. They don't understand. They believe it's a choice because of a whole bunch of misinformation on the subject and since they don't experience it, they assume that you must not either without making that choice. I really don't understand the intersex and celibacy comment. If God made you with the purpose of being celibate, why would he/she not make you born a eunich?
And for the why people are saying these things? I believe they are trying to be helpful, not hurtful. They just see that you're falling off the path that they believe is the right one and are trying to help you get back on it. At any rate, if they can't learn to accept that it's possible to be you and still be Christian, then you need to find new friends.
Quote from: Elspeth on January 15, 2013, 04:01:15 PM
One requirement for maintaining tax-exempt status for religions is exclusivity of membership, even though that makes no doctrinal sense for many religions such as Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism (arguably a philosophy rather than a religion) or Shinto, among many others I know less about.
She had actually asked them to excommunicate her, but it wasn't until she appeared in a local paper as a leader in her Baha'i community that they (Mormons) finally felt inspired to honor her request.
Deleted. After some thinking I've remembered these people thrive on this sort of stuff. They thrive on creating fear, disunity, distrust, uncertainty.
If I've learnt one thing from the teachings of Jesus, it's there is a time to simply brush my shoes and walk away.
There is a strong tradition in the Abrahamic faiths of being very careful to avoid things that might be sin; this is how you get from "thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk" to "can't cook chicken in a pan that has been used to cook something with dairy in it".
The US, in particular, has been heavily influenced by a sexual purity ethic view of Christianity, which tends to value very highly adherence to a particular set of visible structures.
My thought: Do your best, but remember that the entire point of the faith is that there is forgiveness for sins. You are going to fall short in many ways, on many topics, and all you can do is do your best and trust God to sort it out. If you look through our past, you will see Christians going to war, and Christians saying that all war is sin. You will see Christians keeping slaves, and Christians freeing slaves. We can't all be right. None of us are right all the time.
Two passages you should read. The first is Romans 14. Think very hard about this one; Paul's assertion is that nothing is sin in and of itself, only sin to one person or another. If meat sacrificed to idols is sin for you, don't eat it; eating it is sin. If it's not, go ahead and eat it. Interestingly, Paul's view is that the stronger your faith is, the more things you can do -- they are no longer sin for you.
The second is in Romans 8. Just read Romans 8:38-39. Whenever you're unsure, go back to that.
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
There is nothing to fear. You may screw up. You will screw up. But it's okay. Be what you were made to be, and trust God. As Boenhoffer puts it, don't trust God to justify the sin, trust God to justify the sinner.
I don't know whether it is sin for you to transition, or to be with a particular sex of partner. For me, I would not think it would be (well, except that I'm already married, but picky picky). It might be for you. It might not be for you. It is possible that it would be for one of your friends, but not for you. In which case, they may mean well and even be entirely truthful when they tell you they think it is sin, but that doesn't mean you are prohibited from doing it.
Another way to think about it: Imagine that you were to torture Jesus to death, and while He was dying, start gambling over who gets to sell His clothes. How do you think Jesus would react to that? Conveniently, we have the answer written down: He would forgive you. Do you seriously think that anything you are proposing to do is going to get a harsher punishment?
You are what you are; be yourself, and be yourself boldly, and trust God to understand how the way you were made has shaped your choices.
As a side note: When people tell me something is sin, I usually ask them a couple of questions. The first is whether they can make dry bones dance again, because if they can't, they are not actually the boss of me. The second is how many hungry people they've fed recently. I am inclined to feel that anyone whose practice of Christianity does not involve actually directly going out there and feeding people who need food on a fairly regular basis is probably not a credible authority.