There is a stereotype of what is deemed attractive in most cultures. In the United States that stereotype for men is usually a young mid 20's tall muscular man with a head full of thick hair and a jawline made of steel. I am sure in other Countries that stereotype rings true for the most part as well.
In the transman community (as a whole/not just here) many guys have a certain expectation of how their transition physically will play out once on testosterone. It tends to lead to narcissism for the first few years on hormones and it's understandable why. Most transguys for the first few years of HRT are handsome and appear to the outside world to be young men in their late teens or early twenties.
Then as time goes on reality sets in. Testosterone will age you. Most guys I have seen who have been on T for more than 5 to 7 years actually look their age or older. Testosterone (if you are genetically inclined) will make your hair fall out. Of course, you can go on propecia for the rest of your life but then there is another drug with even more side effects. I'm not sure about the statistic but I have heard 40 to 50 percent of transmen eventually go bald. We are more predispositioned to go bald than a cis male due to our XX chromosomes. T can cause weight gain. Scars left behind from years of acne. Starting testosterone is a big deal and there are physical changes that will never revert if you ever do choose to stop.
Some of you are probably wondering why I am even talking about this. I am not trying to talk anyone out of being who they are. I do think that sometimes our trans culture makes hormones sound as if they're not serious. They are VERY serious. More so than having surgery, imo. I see guys talking about never wanting surgery because it is too "permanent" or risky. Taking testosterone is just as permanent and can have ill effects on your health.
I just want people to think. I have seen quite a bit of transguys quit T after a year or so (and it is becoming more frequent). It's usually because they start getting effects that they don't want. Hair starts thinning or they notice a patch of back hair. I hate to inform guys but cis men have receding hairlines, bald spots, back hair, and hairy asses. Testosterone isn't going to whisk you away into pubescent boy land forever. That is the relatively short term.
To those who are starting out just ask yourself. Could you face yourself daily and be happy (that is the important part...the happiness) if you were a man who looked more like George Costanza than Brad Pitt? Could you live and be happy if you at some point decided to stop T and live with the irreversible changes that it caused in a very short period of time?
I want everything this medical condition took away from me.
If that means going bald than be it. I'll rock my baldness.
Although baldness is no where in my genes, on both sides of the family.
Even my grand grand fathers got hair. But whatever, you never know.
I get your point though, and I wish more guys understood this.
Looking at both my dad and my grandpa, I'd say my chances of balding on T are pretty high. I feel like I'm prepared for that though. If I start going bald I'm just going to shave my head and continue wearing awesome looking hats.
Look at the females in my family and the males in my family, I'm not likely to go bald in a way that is noticeable if my hair is longer than an inch. I'm also not likely to develop back hair or even all that much hair on my chest and belly. I'm also not likely to ever have the ability to grow a beard [not that I really want one, but the option to grow one would be nice]. They guys in my family all keep their hair until their 50s and most keep it until they die in their 90s, most are relatively hairless on the body as well.
But. I'm prepared that I might go bald or that I might have copious amounts of body hair [there are such things as waxing and shaving]. It would be worth it to have this body fixed more towards what it should be.
I'll probably get heat for this, but I really don't understand why so many ftms get so upset about baldness to the point of not taking T because of the fear of it. I mean, it's not something that cis guys look forward to either but it's generally what happens. If we had been born biologically male as we should've been, we'd be going through it just the same. I feel like T just gives us the male physical features that we were supposed to have... society is what tells us which of those are "positive" and which are "negative".
I've gained a lot of body hair on T but I've also lost a ridiculous amount, especially on my hairline which has receded a lot in just the last 1.5 years. Eventually I'm sure I'll be bald. It is what it is.
I agree with your post though, Simon -- T is definitely idealized, especially among younger ftms. I see it as one part of the equation. It all comes back to health and nutrition too. Not gonna get on my soap box again here lol, but I think you see a big difference in people on T over time who really take care of themselves and those who don't.
I totally get this. If we were biological men, we'd be facing everything that can happen testosterone just the same. There are extra issueswe run into what with being physically female and that's our responsibility to handle or maintain, but there shouldn't be so many who quit because they're not happy with the "cons".
I personally don't get those who choose to stop after a year or several years for more substantial reasons, but at least it's not because they noticed hair in places they didn't want it or some crap like that. My roommate is one to say he won't continue T past getting the changes he wants and I just don't get not wanting to have the correct hormone. Also if you plan a full hysto later, then you need hormones.
I don't think I have much going for me in the way of "desireable" anything. I have a horrible family health history that can be made worse by T if I don't take care of myself, my dad has been mistaken as my grandfather for as long as I can remember, and he's totally a balding bear. Even if I don't end up like him, I'll blindly take what I get from my mother's side gladly (since I've never met any of the men related to her). I don't care though. I did before I got on T and realized my mistake. I want to be the man I should've been born and I will take what comes with it.
Quote from: Simon on January 16, 2013, 06:32:21 AM
[stuff]
You forgot to mention the backside carpeting. XD
I knew my hair would likely be history before I started T - but then it started thinning pre-T. A hairdresser commented on it, I said it was caused by a condition called "genetic misfortune". :p Also, my dad and older brother started balding in their early twenties, so I had a good run, I suppose. XD Oh, and because of the pre-T hairloss (following a female hairloss pattern), I was relieved to get a receding hairline, thus a more masculine appearance.
I think that this has less to do with T and more to do with getting older? Getting older as a male and getting older as a woman, on a purely physical level, you got to take care of yourself, or you'll look bad. Everyone's hair can thin/bald, everyone can get fat. Young people tend not to think about the ugly sides of T, they and idealize masculinity, but only in these socially acceptable ways. So they revert to what's 'safer' for them. I think its important that everyone transitioning looks at their parents/family to get a sense of where they will be when they're older. I personally idolize my uncle. Thats what I want to be when I'm 35-40. Not Brad Pitt, not someone that gets paid to look good. How can ANYone expect to achieve that living a normal life, man or woman? No one's beautiful forever I guess is what Im trying to say.
I'm a younger ftm, so at the moment I do want to get on T to look like a teenaged guy. The doesn't mean I want to stay in a hire time warp though, I want to age properly so that I'm not forever cringing inside at photos of me and my girlfriend because it looks like a 20 year old is going out with a 12 year old. I want to get older and look my age, with necessary receding hairline, body hair and wrinkles. I don't look at guys my age or older couple older than think "that's my goal," I look at them and think, "that's what I should look like now," and then at a forty year old and think, "now THAT'S my goal."
I'm not trans so I can look like a hot guy, I'm trans so I don't breakdown in the shower at the sight of my body, and so I can live life as myself in comfort. I can't say I want to lose my hair, but I can't understand people who would rather go back to hating their bodies to the point of considering whether it's even worth carrying on in them just so they liked their head hair. I'm just like a cis guy, having hair would be nice, and shaving can be a pain but it's part and parcel of male life.
I'm under no illusions that T is a wonder drug, it's not, but it sure as heck make life a lot more wonderful. I can't imagine living my life as a forty year old female, but I can as a forty year old man, with the start of wrinkles, receding hairline and hair turning more grey than brown. Life is life.
I don't agree that T really ages you. I have seen several people who have transitioned in their 40s and older and they don't look older. However, I agree you will eventually look more your age, if you are younger. What some guys who pass pre-T are doing is passing as VERY young men. So you get on T and then you look like your given age. That might make you look "older" but you don't really look older than you are. I've also seen guys that start their transition in their 20s and then their last youtube post is in their 30s. Well duh, of course the guy looks older! :)
I agree with your other points (and actually maybe helped you make them). I have seen a few guys that get all worried about hair and end up on finistriade (sp?) and even stopped T, because they start getting a male hair line-- not sure that that helps that transition though
I've seen guys where being on T helps their health, but more because now that they are in their approp bodies they feel more like working to protect them.
--Jay
My professional opinion, is that age will make you look older. :icon_grandpa:
It's okay to stop taking T. It's okay to continue taking T. You have to do what's necessary for you.
I have a friend who transitioned. He was on T for three years, had top surgery and bottom surgery then stopped taking T. He's happy, and he's just as male as anybody else.
We get to choose (to some degree) what happens to our bodies. If the results of testosterone give us effects that make us uncomfortable, we're often able to adjust our treatment in an attempt to get rid of those negative effects while a cis guy would usually have to kind of deal with it.
I'd also like to point out that after one year I really didn't have that many changes, and that if I stopped T after one year there would've been no difference socially between that and how I was treated pre-T.
Here's an interesting take on the appearance of aging differences between men and women. When I saw this video, I recalled all the guys over here who are eager to look closer to their actual ages after they've been on T for a while and how it seems to be a common issue that FTM guys often look really young for a while, sometimes to an uncomfortable degree. It ventures out into some other subjects of gender but I thought it might be interesting to some folks strictly for the biology discussion portion.
Neoteny! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C46rSIfTum4#)
Quote from: Jayr on January 16, 2013, 07:08:47 AM
If that means going bald than be it. I'll rock my baldness.
This.
Then again, judging by my Mom's father (I don't know anyone from my dad's side and frankly I don't give a damn) I don't have any baldness genes from that side. My grandpa had pretty thick hair all the way he passed away.
Besides, the changes I look forward to get from T are voice change and facial hair.
Body hair? I've been like a little monkey my whole life, it's just never been very visible since I'm a natural blond.
If I end up looking like an old geezer then so be it. Older men can be quite sexy IMO.
Quote from: Tossu-sama on January 16, 2013, 02:26:22 PM
Older men can be quite sexy IMO.
Alan Rickman, anyone?
Girls and guys a like can be attracted to older looking guys regardless of age. I have a friend who we call a grave robber because she prefers her guys to be at least 30 years older than her even if she's dating someone who's her age. Without him, she'd probably have run off with someone who's graying and old.
This may be a stupid question, but since I am not on T just curious to know, when you go into the endo or whoever gives you the T prescription, do they really give you a good talk about the side effects, etc. of being on T? Or is it just like "okay, here you go" and they just expect you to do the research yourself?
I'd do the research myself, even if I expected the doctor to give me a good talking to, but I guess it seems like other people don't do the appropriate level of research into the negative effects or just don't think them through all the way.
Like some others above have said, I wouldn't get off T just because I didn't like a receeding hairline or back hair. There's ways you can take care of that without getting off T if it really bothers you that much, and I think people would get used to the receeding hairline over time anyways (and getting bald spots happens to women too). But, I also agree with Nygeel, people can choose to get off whenever they want, for whatever reason, it doesn't bother me. Though like taking any drug, people shouldn't just go into it lightly.
Quote from: LearnedHand on January 16, 2013, 02:56:51 PM
This may be a stupid question, but since I am not on T just curious to know, when you go into the endo or whoever gives you the T prescription, do they really give you a good talk about the side effects, etc. of being on T? Or is it just like "okay, here you go" and they just expect you to do the research yourself?
I got pretty much a full lecture of all the possible side effects, good and bad.
Then I had to sign a paper which proves that said lecture has been given to me and I'm aware of all the possible things of HRT.
I think one of the problems is that a lot of the really conventionally attractive trans guys get the most exposure/hits on youtube. I guess that's how life works, but when you go on youtube as a person trying to figure out some more about transition, and you find these guys who went from looking like awkward 12 year old boys to these muscular, attractive 20-somethings...yeah, I can see why people get unrealistic expectations. I didn't because I am the eternal pessimist and always research the worst possible outcome, lol. :P
It seems lot of people aren't actually aware of what T does before they begin it (which is shocking to me), and then when they get changes that are less visible to the outside world (body hair in weird places, balding) they're surprised. Sometimes unpleasantly. But I agree with lexical here - I don't understand why the fear of being bald would be enough to stop someone from transitioning. I don't want to go bald myself, and it feels bad to feel ugly, but living forever as female would be way worse than the feeling of going bald or not being as attractive as society tells me I should be.
I'm okay with whatever T does to me because I feel that whatever problems arise are ones I should've had to begin with.
Quote from: LearnedHand on January 16, 2013, 02:56:51 PM
This may be a stupid question, but since I am not on T just curious to know, when you go into the endo or whoever gives you the T prescription, do they really give you a good talk about the side effects, etc. of being on T? Or is it just like "okay, here you go" and they just expect you to do the research yourself?
My Endo stressed the internal changes that can occur on T. Now this is a doctor who is high up in her field and been prescribing hormones for over thirty years. I was sent to her by my gyno because this Endo specializes in rare conditions that have altered someone's hormone levels. When I received my prescription for T she didn't go over any of the physical changes. Her concern was solely emotional and the health aspect.
I'll be honest: I've always assumed that if I started T I'd turn into a sexy guy with amazing abs and a chiseled face. I'm obviously aware T alone won't accomplish this -- genes and gym play a large role there -- but I'm also very aware that looking like a hot young guy is only going to be something I can access while I'm, well, young. I turned 26 a few days ago, so I feel like time is running out for me; my father tells me he started going bald in his thirties. I'd hate to start T a few years from now only to instantly grow a pot belly and lose all my hair.
This isn't to say I expect to be good-looking forever (or, uh, at all) -- I just want to be able to enjoy having the body of a young man while I'm still young.
Quote from: Felix on January 16, 2013, 05:02:50 PM
I'm okay with whatever T does to me because I feel that whatever problems arise are ones I should've had to begin with.
+9000 8)
Quote from: AlexD on January 16, 2013, 06:06:58 PMI turned 26 a few days ago, so I feel like time is running out for me (...)
I honestly think that the majority of men look their best from 25 - 50 years of age. So I think you'll turn out great, man. ;)
Quote from: Wolf Man on January 16, 2013, 07:33:05 PMI honestly think that the majority of men look their best from 25 - 50 years of age. So I think you'll turn out great, man. ;)
Heh, thanks dude. Who knows, perhaps I would. I've never been very good at looking like an attractive girl -- never wanted to, but I still feel the pressure to do so like crazy and I think it affects my self-image. My sister got a professional make-up artist to do my face when I was a bridesmaid at her wedding, and I thought it was interesting that hardly anyone recognised me (including my mother!) with a girl's face and a dress on. I'm not sure if that means I'll make a convincing guy or if I'm just ugly when I haven't got a pretty face painted on. :p
Thanks for answering my questions guys.
Quote from: Wolf Man on January 16, 2013, 07:33:05 PM
I honestly think that the majority of men look their best from 25 - 50 years of age. So I think you'll turn out great, man. ;)
I agree, while being in you 20s does have a specific kind of look, I think the older guys look so much better. Guys who are 25 and under can still have a bit of that baby face, and when you're older that goes away. Also, I think guys look good with some grays and even some balding if they don't comb their hair over to try to hide it, it can look sophisticated. If I was shopping for a lawyer or doctor, I'd def go with the gray and balding guy. I also think that a lot of women don't make such a big deal out of it as guys do, it's just expected that guys will go bald at some point.
Quote from: LearnedHand on January 16, 2013, 08:06:26 PMI agree, while being in you 20s does have a specific kind of look, I think the older guys look so much better. Guys who are 25 and under can still have a bit of that baby face, and when you're older that goes away. Also, I think guys look good with some grays and even some balding if they don't comb their hair over to try to hide it, it can look sophisticated. If I was shopping for a lawyer or doctor, I'd def go with the gray and balding guy. I also think that a lot of women don't make such a big deal out of it as guys do, it's just expected that guys will go bald at some point.
Good point. I guess, as a straight guy, I just think under-25s look more attractive because the baby-face makes them look more feminine. I need to remember that not everyone is attracted to women. :laugh:
Quote from: AlexD on January 16, 2013, 06:06:58 PM
I'll be honest: I've always assumed that if I started T I'd turn into a sexy guy with amazing abs and a chiseled face. I'm obviously aware T alone won't accomplish this -- genes and gym play a large role there -- but I'm also very aware that looking like a hot young guy is only going to be something I can access while I'm, well, young. I turned 26 a few days ago, so I feel like time is running out for me; my father tells me he started going bald in his thirties. I'd hate to start T a few years from now only to instantly grow a pot belly and lose all my hair.
This isn't to say I expect to be good-looking forever (or, uh, at all) -- I just want to be able to enjoy having the body of a young man while I'm still young.
I agree with this except I turned 27 last month
The fear of balding always amused me. You're afraid of T because you're afraid to go bald like half the population is anyway? No matter who you are, age will always get you sooner or later. :P
I'd rather grow old as a man than as a man who looks like a woman. Right now, I'm just hoping I can do that.
Quote from: Arawn Gabriel on January 16, 2013, 02:32:18 PM
Alan Rickman, anyone?
Not really my type but older guys can be sexy and got a couple of friends who think so as well.
one of my friends think his sexy, another one been with a guy who is over 40 years older than him, the oldest person for myself have been 12 years older than me so far.
---
sadly I dont think my parrents are that good looking so im probably not going to be sexy being old. as it now I just take the problems as they come.
I dont want to worry about getting bald if its never going to happent, if it happents I can try to get threatment or find a good cap to use.
I dont really like too much hair but now as im getting hair places I dont like I also figure out what to do with it, I can shave, trim, lazer or just let it be?
I actually just had this conversation with a kid from my old uni who is unsure of how they identify. T isn't a magic potion that suddenly makes everything okay. You won't look like Brad Pitt or Johnny Dep (or whoever else is considered sexy, they are so not my type but apparently people like them) and the world won't suddenly be rainbows and puppy dogs.
If you want muscle, you have to work for it (like everyone else), facial hair won't magically bud overnight into the perfect shape, you may get butt fuzz, or you may get a butt parka. You may have no chest hair or you might look like a small, less frightening bear. Most guys don't get to pick what happens during puberty. I had a pretty good idea because I look enough like my father to see the changes happening are making me look like a smaller, less stern faced version of my dad. I figure as long as I am clean, and look the best I can, I'm rockin the boy boat. And if I go bald, I have already decided that I am going to have a collection of awful, terrible, just... pathetic looking toupes, and I will wear them with pride and watch other people squirm and try to be polite while I have a dead purple possum on my head. Just like my great grandfather did.
The part that gets me is the unrealistic idea that everything gets perfect all of a sudden. It doesn't. It gets.. kinda weird for a while. I'm still getting used to it, and I have had no trouble passing here for the last seven months. If you don't want certain physical things to happen you can shave or work out or take extra meds or even go off T if that is what one chooses to do. There isn't any one right way to live life and I certainly will be the last person to tell someone they aren't X because of Y. It's the idea that T suddenly makes the world sugar cane lane and rain gumdrops that I think is the most dangerous, frankly. T is awesome, if you are in the right place mentally for it, but if you are not ready for transition mentally it won't be all that great.
I'm up for anything that would come with T. Back hair, nose hair, ear hair, butt hair, pot belly and being a smelly old man.
I am however, not up for balding. I had my head shaved in hospital a couple of years ago and my head is actually deformed. It's completely the wrong shape at the back (where balding typically starts) and I look like I was hit my a truck as a baby whereas my hair hides it. I've already talked it over with my Doctor and he reckons the one a day pill would take care of balding for me as long as I understand that facial hair changes would slow down loads if I were to go on it. It is a bummer to already be considering hindering facial hair but I literally cannot express how weird my head is so I'm desperate to not bald. If need be, I will amass an army of wigs, an army.
My half brother has zero facial hair anyway so I least I'd fit in with him ::)
Quote from: Edge on January 17, 2013, 10:19:00 AM
I'd rather grow old as a man than as a man who looks like a woman. Right now, I'm just hoping I can do that.
This was what made me realize I was trans... that there was no way I could grow old as someone that appeared outwardly female. I just knew then that it was a matter of time before I started physically transitioning.
Yep. Every time I tried picturing me "in ten years", I saw this dude sitting on a staircase.. Subconscious hint, much?
Well, cis men go bald and get bigger as they age,
So I don't see why I shouldn't. It's no big deal to me.
Either I deal with those effects, or I deal with getting old as a woman,
And they have just as many unwanted side-effects of getting older as well.
...Perhaps it's just me,
But I feel as though this topic is more about getting old on T than the unwanted side-effects *shrug*
Everyone gets old, and it's usually not pretty...unless you're George Clooney.
Quote from: lexical on January 17, 2013, 11:45:48 PM
This was what made me realize I was trans... that there was no way I could grow old as someone that appeared outwardly female. I just knew then that it was a matter of time before I started physically transitioning.
Same for me too. I could see no future as a female, being an old lady seemed really wrong - I thought I was just afraid of growing old, when in actual fact I was afraid of
growing old as a woman. I just took every day as it came and made no plans that were any more than a few months ahead. Growing old as a man I can totally picture, now that I can see that picture I can easily make 5 year...10 year...15 year plans because I know where I want to be heading. I'm not afraid at all, because at least I will have enjoyed the journey.
I've been told a lot that it's "such a shame" that I'm transitioning because I was such a pretty girl. My reply is always "I'd much rather be a fat, ugly bald man than a gorgeous woman"
Quote from: Jeatyn on January 18, 2013, 02:16:49 PMI've been told a lot that it's "such a shame" that I'm transitioning because I was such a pretty girl. My reply is always "I'd much rather be a fat, ugly bald man than a gorgeous woman"
Hah. I think I'm inclined this way too. I haven't come out to anyone yet, but when I had to dress up ultra femme at my sister's wedding I got *so* many comments about how beautiful I was, and all of them made me feel like utter crap. So whenever I start to doubt whether being a bald, pot-bellied old man would suit me, I just remember how terrible I felt that day.
My personal opinion is that I didn't want bad side effects (not talking just going bald here – although I wouldn't want that either – I'm talking more serious health side effects) and I also didn't want to be dependent on a prescription drug for the rest of my life just to keep me looking a certain way.
Someone else mentioned level of comfort already on here and I'm going to reiterate that. If you're trans, your main goals are usually to feel more comfortable with yourself and your body. HRT is one way to help you become more comfortable with your body, but if you get effects on it that make you uncomfortable, then what? Why should you have to deal with something that makes you uncomfortable when it's an option for you? You're not a biological male so you're not subjected to the same "rules", so to speak. How many biological males out there would take the option to not lose their hair (if that was a major concern) if they could? Probably quite a few I'd imagine.
If you're cool with the, "whatever happens, happens" line of thought and that really makes you comfortable and the way you think about it is that, "this is how it SHOULD HAVE BEEN", well that's cool. I think about it differently. I really don't want to look too much different than I do now ... to look vastly different would make me more uncomfortable. It's a balancing act and I'm going for equilibrium. So yes, maybe I only want certain things, but there's nothing wrong with that. Just like there's nothing wrong with wanting it all or being cool with whatever happens.
I've been on T for almost a year and I've not had one side effect that I didn't like. I'm not afraid of going bald. Let it happen. It's just one of those things.
I was willing to put up with whatever I got from T, but I knew that I would be less happy with some changes than with others. I also suspected that I might take a little while to get used to some of the changes that I found less attractive. I told myself that I could quit at any time (I was still trying to find ways to keep my relationship intact), but I couldn't see myself stopping just because I wasn't fully happy with some of the masculinity markers, such as thinning hair (or actual baldness), back hair, or lots of body hair generally. I also knew that if I did start getting unbearably hairy, I could always shave or wax (although I couldn't see myself doing that). I knew that, as a late transitioner, I was pretty likely to lose a lot of hair. I also knew that if I started to bald, I had options, like Rogaine or finasteride.
So when my hair did start thinning noticeably and I couldn't tell whether I was actually balding, I talked to my doc about finasteride and told him that I wasn't ready to deal with balding right now. Balding sounds trivial next to all of the really big traumatic events in my life at that moment, but I just didn't need anything more on my plate, and the balding was something I might be able to control. I knew that I needed time to get used to the idea, although I wasn't positive that I would.
After a couple of years on finasteride, I have stopped. Now I am willing to see what happens to my hair, and I WANT the body hair to come in faster. I just needed an acclimation period, that's all.
I have run into a couple of younger transitioners who were all bravado before T and early on--"Who cares if my hair starts falling out!" I suppose they figured that they weren't likely to start balding in their twenties or early thirties. Sure enough, they didn't start to bald right away. But they did start balding sometime later. Then it was panic city. I'm not sure what these guys did about it because I lost track of them. But it does seem like a good idea to point out that some guys who transition relatively young might have a sudden change of attitude if they don't start balding until later. They think they're "safe," but it turns out that they aren't. Just be expecting that.
I'm of the opinion that bald looks sophisticated (assuming one does one's best to keep one's body otherwise healthy and looking good). Bald men with very hairy bodies are common in my family tree, but I don't think this would stop me from getting T (I'm pre-everything).
I really wonder what to expect though. My father (Italian) is a really hairy guy. But my full brother is pretty much hair free, and can't even grow a proper beard, so a little piece of me hopes that I'll be a little more like my brother than my father. Not high hopes though. I got to experience the joy of having my mom buy me bleach sometime in high school because she thought my little female mustache was getting unseemly, lol, and was worried what the kids at school might be saying ;D
Doesn't much matter re: your father's side. It's your mom's side. Male pattern baldness is linked on the X chromosome. And then again most of us may have two X chromosomes. So it may be also our dad's mom as well.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on January 20, 2013, 03:49:49 PM
Doesn't much matter re: your father's side. It's your mom's side. Male pattern baldness is linked on the X chromosome. And then again most of us may have two X chromosomes. So it may be also our dad's mom as well.
Jay, that's always confused me. If I'm XX it does seem like both sides could contribute to balding. Not sure about body hairiness though...that's the one I'm really curious about. Only time and T will tell I suppose.
Quote from: aleon515 on January 20, 2013, 03:49:49 PM
Doesn't much matter re: your father's side. It's your mom's side. Male pattern baldness is linked on the X chromosome. And then again most of us may have two X chromosomes. So it may be also our dad's mom as well.
--Jay
It's both sides for transmen.
Biomen only have to worry about their mother's side because she's where they get their single X chromosome. Transmen, meanwhile, have two X's, one from each parent, so both parents are relevant when considering X-linked conditions. Your dad only has one X, so if he has male pattern baldness, you're
guaranteed to have the gene for it on one of your X's.
However, I'm not sure if a single gene is enough to actually cause baldness if your other X chromosome contains a non-bald gene to cover for it. It depends on whether male pattern baldness is recessive or not. If it isn't, you'll definitely have it if your dad does. If it is, you'll need to look towards your mother's father and mother's mother's father for clues.
Apparently male pattern baldness acts dominant in XY people, which makes sense, otherwise there would be no bald cis men at all, and recessive in XX people, which also makes sense, because there aren't that many balding cis women.
In any case I'm stuffed, both my grandfathers are bald except the ring of hair around the backs of their heads, and my grandmother on my mothers' side has lost quite a lot of hair as well, although that might be connected to her coeliac disease because that didn't help her osteoporosis or anemia as it went undiagnosed for so long.
Quote from: Alex000000 on January 20, 2013, 05:15:54 PM
Apparently male pattern baldness acts dominant in XY people, which makes sense, otherwise there would be no bald cis men at all, and recessive in XX people, which also makes sense, because there aren't that many balding cis women.
That's not really how it works. The gene is either recessive or dominant. If it's dominant, it will
always be expressed; if it's recessive, it will always
fail to express unless it's the only gene available.
Male pattern baldness is a tricky case because there's another factor which influences its expression: testosterone. A ciswoman might have two baldness X chromosomes, but because her body creates primarily oestrogen, she won't go bald. For this reason, the lack of baldness in ciswomen doesn't really suggest anything about the recessiveness/dominance of the male pattern baldness gene.
Um Simon buddy, you do know that men tend to age better than women don't ya? :laugh:
Quote from: Fat Admin on January 20, 2013, 05:43:41 PM
Um Simon buddy, you do know that men tend to age better than women don't ya? :laugh:
They die sooner though. D:
Recessive traits that show up on the X gene are more common in people with XY chromosomes because they only have one X. That's why there are more colourblind people with XY chromosomes too.
Great post Simon!
I'm not jumping in to start T anytime soon because of other health issues that I have to deal with first, but when I do start, I'll be more than happy to take the bad with the good: hair thinning out, getting more hair in other places (which I wouldn't mind to begin with), aging, weight gain, etc.
T certainly won't be the end of all problems for me. In fact, I know that I'll go from looking like an ugly girl to an even uglier man but that's fine with me.
Quote from: ford on January 20, 2013, 04:36:05 PM
Jay, that's always confused me. If I'm XX it does seem like both sides could contribute to balding. Not sure about body hairiness though...that's the one I'm really curious about. Only time and T will tell I suppose.
I don't know at all about body hairiness. That's another gene/genes, I think.
--Jay
Quote from: LearnedHand on January 16, 2013, 02:56:51 PM
This may be a stupid question, but since I am not on T just curious to know, when you go into the endo or whoever gives you the T prescription, do they really give you a good talk about the side effects, etc. of being on T? Or is it just like "okay, here you go" and they just expect you to do the research yourself?
my doctor went to great lengths to make me understand the risks and how it works with hrt. my doctor is a really good doctor and a really nice guy.
Quote from: AlexD on January 20, 2013, 05:42:02 PM
That's not really how it works. The gene is either recessive or dominant. If it's dominant, it will always be expressed; if it's recessive, it will always fail to express unless it's the only gene available.
Male pattern baldness is a tricky case because there's another factor which influences its expression: testosterone. A ciswoman might have two baldness X chromosomes, but because her body creates primarily oestrogen, she won't go bald. For this reason, the lack of baldness in ciswomen doesn't really suggest anything about the recessiveness/dominance of the male pattern baldness gene.
Google it. Every single page I looked at said the same thing, I was just passing that on, which is why I said "apparently". In women I think it shows more as thinning hair rather than them being a complete slaphead due to their lower T levels, but it's still there.
Quote from: Alex000000 on January 21, 2013, 04:32:14 AM
complete slaphead
Off topic but that's the best term I've heard when discussing baldness on T. I just tend to call people (mainly chavs) slapheads when they have a shaved head.
My doctor just told me to chill about balding because at the end of the day he said, we can only get so far by looking at our family. Our parents' genes have not combined in the exact way that ours have before (unless we have an identical twin of course) so short of analyzing genes, it's all just educated guess work. Just work to being able to deal with any consequence.
I think it's interesting that so many trans guys say that we have to face facts and realize that we are going to get the same effects as cis guys--balding, gut, body hair in weird places, health issues, and so forth. Frankly, I don't understand why people need this warning. Have they been living with their heads in the sand, or are they simply doing their own transition in their own way?
It's also interesting that so many trans guys say that they are okay with all of these changes. Most cis guys that I talk to are not so thrilled about the changes, and many of those guys took a long time to get used to them. Some of them go to great lengths to battle the effects. Why should we be any different? I realize that we have a heightened awareness of male markers and characteristics, but why should I be expected to revel in my thinning hair when so many of my cis friends are just as cranky about their own incipient baldness?
BTW, I'm not accusing anyone here of saying that it's not okay for me to be sensitive about effects that I don't like. Some people in other threads have implied it. But I've directly experienced that kind of pressure in my own community here. It's yet another reason that I don't hang around with the local guys so much anymore. The "like it or lump it" approach bothers me. My cis buddies don't usually "like it"; they tend to either fight the effects or make their peace with them. If I go through a similar process, I'm just acting the same way they do.
Quote from: Arch on January 21, 2013, 02:18:22 PM
I think it's interesting that so many trans guys say that we have to face facts and realize that we are going to get the same effects as cis guys--balding, gut, body hair in weird places, health issues, and so forth. Frankly, I don't understand why people need this warning. Have they been living with their heads in the sand, or are they simply doing their own transition in their own way?
It's also interesting that so many trans guys say that they are okay with all of these changes. Most cis guys that I talk to are not so thrilled about the changes, and many of those guys took a long time to get used to them. Some of them go to great lengths to battle the effects. Why should we be any different? I realize that we have a heightened awareness of male markers and characteristics, but why should I be expected to revel in my thinning hair when so many of my cis friends are just as cranky about their own incipient baldness?
BTW, I'm not accusing anyone here of saying that it's not okay for me to be sensitive about effects that I don't like. Some people in other threads have implied it. But I've directly experienced that kind of pressure in my own community here. It's yet another reason that I don't hang around with the local guys so much anymore. The "like it or lump it" approach bothers me. My cis buddies don't usually "like it"; they tend to either fight the effects or make their peace with them. If I go through a similar process, I'm just acting the same way they do.
Yeah, I never said that people need to like it or lump it when it comes to transition effects. I think people want to stick to facts and figures and maybe secretly feel if you don't love every aspect of physical transition 100%, 100% of the time they side-eye you and question why you're transitioning. Which is BS in my opinion. It seems like in "the community" you have to like everything and be 100% ok with transition 100% of the time and be very matter of fact about things. To be honest, this bothers me too. I do believe people should do research before taking hrt, but beyond that, it's a personal matter and people should be abel to make informed decisions about their body without having to justify why they feel a certain way. This more trans-than thou needs to stop. And I see this this as an extension of that. It's an underlining current. Just my 0.02
Now, from my personal experience, I do like everything 100%, but to be fair, I've only been on T for 11 months. Not really long enough to bald or experience the same side effects of people on T for many years. And, you know, I may change my opinion in a few years. Who knows?
I think it's not intended to be a "like it or lump it" attitude. I have a dog in this fight myself. I'm almost certain in a few years I will be bald or extremely balding. I've had the beginning stages of a receding hairline for years. I also have fine textured hair. Am I happy about it? No, I would rather it not be happening. However, I think it is something I signed on for when I started injecting T. I wish there was a pill that would keep the hair on my head, not be a lifelong medicine, and not interfere with other effects of HRT that I do want. There is no such pill so I've quickly come to terms with taking the bad with the good.
This thread wasn't started to discuss balding per say. It was intended to make guys really think about what they are getting themselves into with HRT. No one necessarily has to like every aspect that testosterone gives them. There are many young people who don't really think that testosterone is going to progress them over the handsome young man phase that T brings on relatively early. Some of it is misinformation and some of it is the lack of elder transmen in the Community who are visible and accessible.
Transition regret is something that is of importance to our Community. I've seen guy's stories where they're not happy that they decided to take T. I have noticed multiple people say they felt that there is a peer pressure in the trans community to get on hormones and get on with it. Almost as if you're not a "real transman" until you've stuck a needle in your body. There is nothing farther from the truth. In the next decade there is going to be a backlash of people who detransitioned and the medical/mental health communities are going to be a lot more cautious. It won't effect me or anyone who has been in transition for a long time at that point but the up and comers are going to have a harder time. Acceptance by society may very well be getting better but it is our choices that make or break the medical community's willingness to help us.
I also don't think it's a "like it or lump it attitude", I don't want to get a gut, go bald or any of that any more than a cis male would. BUT cis males don't have the problem of going bald or risk looking like a female again. It's just the lesser of two evils. Some trans man might try and fight it, but that can also cause problems with T and it's effectiveness from what some people have said on here, and regardless I'm not against medicine, but I see why I would go through the risks for purely aesthetical reasons. You could say that T is just for that, but I need to feel comfortable with myself to help my mental heath, so that's still an added benefit that makes it worth it.
Quote from: Simon on January 21, 2013, 03:34:24 PM
There are many young people who don't really think that testosterone is going to progress them over the handsome young man phase that T brings on relatively early.
See, this cavalier attitude, this lack of awareness, really bothers me. We are surrounded by cis men. How can a trans man be so clueless about the effects of T?
But I do know that some guys start T conditionally, and some don't intend to stay on it forever. That, I figure, is their right. So I guess I'm trying to make an important distinction here: there's a difference between being clueless about the general effects of T and not knowing what specific effects will happen to oneself. When I'm looking at another guy who seems to belong to one of these categories, I can't necessarily know which camp he falls into.
Quote from: Arch on January 21, 2013, 05:01:42 PM
See, this cavalier attitude, this lack of awareness, really bothers me. We are surrounded by cis men. How can a trans man be so clueless about the effects of T?
I think some guys are cavalier about the process of really studying up on medical transition before starting it because that would mean they might have to wait a little longer. It means they might stumble on something that changes their minds or something that makes them apprehensive.
A big part of the transman experience is supposedly knowing you have to have T and you have to have top surgery. Can't live without it. Shouldn't question it. If you do question it you may be opening yourself up to someone saying you're not a man. Then these guys who aren't 100% positive that this is what they want for the rest of their lives start transitioning medically because "it's what they're supposed to do". There are a lot of things that trans people should sort out before jumping at HRT. It is much better to have doubts before hormones than to deal with doubts a year after you've started.
Quote from: Arch on January 21, 2013, 05:01:42 PM
See, this cavalier attitude, this lack of awareness, really bothers me. We are surrounded by cis men. How can a trans man be so clueless about the effects of T?
Well, there could be a few reasons for that. I only knew what to expect from T by looking a lot on the internet at all types of naked men. and examining them closely, lol. I've never been intimate with a man, I don't even hug men, so I didn't know what their bodies looked like close up. Even in casual situations I just don't really pay much attention to guys because they don't really talk to me. I also just spend so much time around women, and am more comfortable around women, so I don't notice a lot about guys.
I think something else could be people don't realize that the T is as powerful as it is. They think because they were born female they will be exempt from certain changes, or that certain changes won't be as "drastic" (aka you won't be as hairy, or you won't bald because they don't know the cause is T, and not DNA).
Just hunches.
Quote from: Simon on January 21, 2013, 05:22:08 PM
It is much better to have doubts before hormones than to deal with doubts a year after you've started.
I agree with this. People are afraid of doubts. What most people don't know is I read up on hormones (I mean,
extensively) for two years before I told a soul other than my partner that I was trans. If I was going to transition, I was going to know as much as possible about what was going to happen and if it was worth it to me. Then I was out for about 3 years before starting T (although that wasn't completely my choice).
Quote from: Simon on January 21, 2013, 03:34:24 PM
I have noticed multiple people say they felt that there is a peer pressure in the trans community to get on hormones and get on with it. Almost as if you're not a "real transman" until you've stuck a needle in your body. There is nothing farther from the truth.
This is one of the main reasons why I'm not part of any in person "community". Since I'm unwilling to transition at all, people basically say I'm full of it and not trans at all.
Quote from: Simon on January 21, 2013, 05:22:08 PM
I think some guys are cavalier about the process of really studying up on medical transition before starting it because that would mean they might have to wait a little longer. It means they might stumble on something that changes their minds or something that makes them apprehensive.
A big part of the transman experience is supposedly knowing you have to have T and you have to have top surgery. Can't live without it. Shouldn't question it. If you do question it you may be opening yourself up to someone saying you're not a man. Then these guys who aren't 100% positive that this is what they want for the rest of their lives start transitioning medically because "it's what they're supposed to do". There are a lot of things that trans people should sort out before jumping at HRT. It is much better to have doubts before hormones than to deal with doubts a year after you've started.
I've actually seen people pretty much say they didn't research because they wanted to get on T as soon as possible.
But then again, this is no more baffling to me than all the people who are now taking prescription drugs for damn near everything that have "side effects" like "fatal events" (death is not a side effect folks, it's death).
There seems to be a society-wide thing happening where people, especially young people seem to have this attitude where things can't harm them. I have a friend who's lost a family member to AIDS and is somewhat involved in AIDS awareness. She said that a recent poll happened where young people are going back to un-safe sex because they think they can just take a pill if they get AIDS and manage it. Scary.
So it's not just hormones ... and it's not even just confined to the younger generations. It something that's happening across the board where people are taking more and more risks with their health. So it's no real surprise to me when I see people rushing to get on HRT and not really showing too much concern for any ill effects that might happen.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on January 21, 2013, 09:47:50 PMShe said that a recent poll happened where young people are going back to un-safe sex because they think they can just take a pill if they get AIDS and manage it. Scary.
This is a big problem in the gay community. And some guys intentionally expose themselves to the virus...that's not just a fictional construct.
I'm really enjoying this thread, Simon.
Quote from: Arch on January 21, 2013, 11:12:29 PM
This is a big problem in the gay community. And some guys intentionally expose themselves to the virus...that's not just a fictional construct.
I'm really enjoying this thread, Simon.
Yeah it's scary. Someone should go to talk to them about what it's like to be on anti-retroviral treatment. I haven't heard this stuff for years.
--Jay
Some of people's attitudes toward aging and looking less attractive don't make sense to me. I can't imagine just bumbling into transition like it's a fast food meal or something. Even a perfunctory internet search makes it clear there's no magic and we've got a hard path.
Maybe there are generational and other differences I'm unaware of. I didn't start until after I'd spent decades obsessing about biology and being repressed and closeted, so lol it's pretty easy to meet my definition of miraculous. :laugh:
The way I see it is we'll age regardless of whether we're on T or not. Do I want to age? Well, to an extent, but to be old? No, but that won't stop it from happening. Do I want to go bald? No and I will have to deal with that if/when it happens. I know there will probably be effects I don't like and effects I want that I don't get. I know there are effects I have to keep an eye out for that are potentially dangerous and I will take steps to keep on top of those as much as I can (like seeing my doctor regularly and keeping her informed). I know that T can't solve some problems like my hands and skeletal structure. I know I may never look like a guy. I know I may look like an ugly guy (although I will try to control what I can such as exercise and eating right). I feel I have to try though. I don't want to go on T to be pretty. I want to go on T in the hopes that one day I'll be able to see myself when I look in the mirror. Even if that never happens, it's important enough to me to try.
Quote from: Arch on January 21, 2013, 11:12:29 PM
This is a big problem in the gay community. And some guys intentionally expose themselves to the virus...that's not just a fictional construct.
I'm really enjoying this thread, Simon.
Wow, why would anyone expose themselves intentionally to AIDS? ???
Quote from: Edge on January 23, 2013, 10:57:08 AM
The way I see it is we'll age regardless of whether we're on T or not. Do I want to age? Well, to an extent, but to be old? No, but that won't stop it from happening. Do I want to go bald? No and I will have to deal with that if/when it happens. I know there will probably be effects I don't like and effects I want that I don't get. I know there are effects I have to keep an eye out for that are potentially dangerous and I will take steps to keep on top of those as much as I can (like seeing my doctor regularly and keeping her informed). I know that T can't solve some problems like my hands and skeletal structure. I know I may never look like a guy. I know I may look like an ugly guy (although I will try to control what I can such as exercise and eating right). I feel I have to try though. I don't want to go on T to be pretty. I want to go on T in the hopes that one day I'll be able to see myself when I look in the mirror. Even if that never happens, it's important enough to me to try.
Like you said about exercising and eating right, that can go a long way to keeping a younger appearance and level of ability as one ages, I've seen very fit people in their 60s or 70s looking like they're in their 40s. Hair loss is due to genetics, but I've also heard that hair loss and other aging affects (like wrinkles) can also be influenced by poor health. Some others have said that taking T is going to make them more susceptible to going bald and getting a big gut, but by not taking T you're just going to be more susceptible to getting big(ger) hips and thighs, you can still get thin hair (I know quite a number of older ladies sporting wigs), and go through menopause. It's just trading one aging for another, and you can just try to be as healthy as you possibly can to look and feel younger as long as possible.
Like others have mentioned above, there is a mentality in our society of people not keeping up with their health or of believing that medicine/drugs are the answer to everything. There's so many "quick fixes" like diet pills, gastric bypass, the latest ab machine, that people just think are the answer to all of their problems without truly considering the risks involved or really understanding the limits of our medical knowledge and abilities. Like those kids inside mentioned who think they can just manage HIV with taking some pills everyday and life just continues on like normal just shows a complete and absolute naive trust in the abilities of our scientific community, almost as if they think we're living in a Utopian science fiction novel (or movie for the kids who don't read anymore). ::)
I was bored and dropped in and read the entire thread, it was an interesting conversation, thanks for letting me eavesdrop! T does make some FtM people get hairy in different places and surly can cause baldness. It can add to the aggressiveness level a bit also, but what's interesting to note that other than sex drive, male behavior is only about 10% T driven and 90% learned from the cradle onward. So if you see a guy sitting with his knees wide apart, it has everything to do with the fact that he never had to wear a dress and was never told that ladies keep their knees together. If you see a guy reach down and touch his crotch several times a day it's either because his dangling modifier is getting scrunched uncomfortably in his underpants or that he's checking to be sure that the zipper of his fly hasn't slid down. It's kind of an unconscious, self-conscious thing they do. It's all learned behavior and doesn't have much of anything to do with T. Watching body language is a great way to get your own act together. Hope this might be helpful info.
~ Shan ~
Quote from: Shantel on January 23, 2013, 09:08:42 PM
I was bored and dropped in and read the entire thread, it was an interesting conversation, thanks for letting me eavesdrop! T does make some FtM people get hairy in different places and surly can cause baldness. It can add to the aggressiveness level a bit also, but what's interesting to note that other than sex drive, male behavior is only about 10% T driven and 90% learned from the cradle onward. So if you see a guy sitting with his knees wide apart, it has everything to do with the fact that he never had to wear a dress and was never told that ladies keep their knees together. If you see a guy reach down and touch his crotch several times a day it's either because his dangling modifier is getting scrunched uncomfortably in his underpants or that he's checking to be sure that the zipper of his fly hasn't slid down. It's kind of an unconscious, self-conscious thing they do. It's all learned behavior and doesn't have much of anything to do with T. Watching body language is a great way to get your own act together. Hope this might be helpful info.
~ Shan ~
This is very true.
In some ways I think we FTM tend to put so much emphasis on T and that it'll magically change us and we'll just automatically be reads as male with no effort on our part. Just take the shots/gel/cream etc and poof, a man. In my experience, it doesn't work that way. We DO need to work at it everyday and change our speaking patters, behaviors, and how we take up space. That's what really helped me pass more. Not JUST T. I just don't believe all our discussion here should be so hrt focused. There is more to transition than that. Of course I'm assuming that people in the FTM forum want to pass, I know that isn't the goal for all of us.
Good point, Darrin. For ages I assumed that masculine behaviour was something that "real" transmen did naturally, without needing to learn -- not necessarily due to T, mind you, but because it seemed like picking up masculine mannerisms should come naturally to someone male. If you feel like a guy, you should learn like a guy, right? But since I learned how to behave in a very feminine manner, I felt like that was proof I wasn't a "true" transman.
But with practice, that stuff is coming along easily enough. Presenting in a masculine manner helps a lot, too -- for example, now that my hair is short, I automatically interact with it by scrubbing it roughly with my palm, instead of delicately twirling a strand between my fingers.
Quote from: Darrin Scott on January 23, 2013, 09:53:40 PM
In some ways I think we FTM tend to put so much emphasis on T and that it'll magically change us and we'll just automatically be reads as male with no effort on our part. Just take the shots/gel/cream etc and poof, a man. In my experience, it doesn't work that way. We DO need to work at it everyday and change our speaking patters, behaviors, and how we take up space.
In the beginning stages I think mannerisms do play a vital role in passing. I remember sitting at the Mall just people watching. I'd look at the way men walked, if they would swing their arms a certain way when walking, the stride, etc. Just natural looking gestures. I am far too white to try to achieve a "strut", lol. I don't have any brothers and my dad was very distant towards me so it was something I had to learn on my own.
I do think with testosterone male mannerisms become more natural looking regardless of what you do, because when you appear as a man physically to the World people don't question your limp wrists or hip swings. If anything people would think you were a gay male if you did that but nobody would think female. Most guys get to that point between 6 months and 2 years on T.
Quote from: Simon on January 24, 2013, 09:25:47 AM
I do think with testosterone male mannerisms become more natural looking regardless of what you do, because when you appear as a man physically to the World people don't question your limp wrists or hip swings. If anything people would think you were a gay male if you did that but nobody would think female.
I dunno about that, although I have an educated eye being a part of the trans world, so naturally I will notice what others wouldn't. Just recently I was waiting to see the doctor and a big fellow with a face full of whiskers and kind of a pear like shape caught my eye as he was standing in front talking to a nurse. He shifted from one foot to another and lifted the other up behind himself like women sometimes do, then shifted to the other foot and did the same thing, his hips swinging either way as he did this. In my mind i had clocked him. We did have an amicable conversation as we waited and of course I would have never said a word about my personal observations. However in a room full of men he would have stuck out like a sore thumb.
Shantel, you noticed that because you're attuned to gender markers more than most people. 95% of the public knows little to nothing about trans issues (except for what they have seen in the media) and wouldn't pick up on something like that. Even if they did, if the guy passed physically without question nobody is going to think "oh, a transsexual". They're going to think he is a gay guy or just effeminate.
Well yeah, you're probably right. Anyway I sure don't want to discourage anyone here.
Baldness will suck, sure, but body hair? I been waitin for that since I was thirteen; I ain't shaving a single hair on my body one I'm on T. No, the only thing I'm really worried about with taking T is that it apparently worsens PCOS symptoms, and that *stuff* runs in my family hard. It'll be a long time before I can remove the ovaries, so that will be a serious issue. I'm not really lookin to get cancer.
Quote from: Scoot on January 27, 2013, 01:27:58 PM
Baldness will suck, sure, but body hair? I been waitin for that since I was thirteen; I ain't shaving a single hair on my body one I'm on T. No, the only thing I'm really worried about with taking T is that it apparently worsens PCOS symptoms, and that ->-bleeped-<- runs in my family hard. It'll be a long time before I can remove the ovaries, so that will be a serious issue. I'm not really lookin got get cancer.
If cancer and PCOS run in your family, or you start to show signs of cysts while on testosterone, you're insurance company will likely see a hysterecteroy (with ovary removal) as a necessary surgery, so I really don't see what the problem is, unless you're trying to imply you'd rather keep your female sex organs fully in tact.
Quote from: JasonRX on January 27, 2013, 07:29:21 PM
If cancer and PCOS run in your family, or you start to show signs of cysts while on testosterone, your insurance company will likely see a hysterectomy (with ovary removal) as a necessary surgery, so I really don't see what the problem is, unless you're trying to imply you'd rather keep your female sex organs fully in tact.
>>Implying I have insurance
I've never been to a doctor except in the emergency room, and I've never had health insurance. Sure I'd LIKE to get em taken out, but that won't be an option unless I suddenly become really rich from flipping burgers, which will probably be my occupation for the next ten years as the economy bottoms out. Still, I'll keep that in mind if I ever get wealthy enough for health insurance.
Quote from: Shantel on January 23, 2013, 09:08:42 PM
So if you see a guy sitting with his knees wide apart, it has everything to do with the fact that he never had to wear a dress and was never told that ladies keep their knees together.
I've been sitting this way my whole life, except when my mother pestered me. And, believe me, I was forced to wear dresses and skirts. It's just more comfortable and natural to me. But I suppose there might be an ounce of rebellion in there...
Quote from: Darrin Scott on January 23, 2013, 09:53:40 PM
We DO need to work at it everyday and change our speaking patters, behaviors, and how we take up space.
I think you're discounting all of the trans men who already had these mannerisms and took a lot of crap for it while they were still living as women. Before I transitioned, I decided that I wasn't going to change anything consciously--I was just going to be myself, and if people thought I was gay, then they would be right, and I would just own it. It worked like a charm, except that people don't read me as gay. (That has good points and bad points.)
I did later adjust a couple of things. For example, once my body fat had redistributed, I found a way of standing that doesn't accentuate my hips as much. And I try not to let my voice go up when I laugh. But that's about it...
Quote from: Shantel on January 24, 2013, 09:42:50 AM
I dunno about that, although I have an educated eye being a part of the trans world, so naturally I will notice what others wouldn't. Just recently I was waiting to see the doctor and a big fellow with a face full of whiskers and kind of a pear like shape caught my eye as he was standing in front talking to a nurse. He shifted from one foot to another and lifted the other up behind himself like women sometimes do, then shifted to the other foot and did the same thing, his hips swinging either way as he did this. In my mind i had clocked him. We did have an amicable conversation as we waited and of course I would have never said a word about my personal observations. However in a room full of men he would have stuck out like a sore thumb.
Not all men fit the "norm", that doesn't mean they are trans.
Quote from: Arch on January 27, 2013, 11:29:16 PM
I think you're discounting all of the trans men who already had these mannerisms and took a lot of crap for it while they were still living as women.
Yep.
When the shrink at the gender clinic was like "Oh and you should take time to study men and.. blah blah blah", I was like:
ò_ó No.
...but only on the inside. :p I've always been stubborn and HATE being told what I should do. Anywho, I was determined to just carry on being me, worked like a charm for this bloke. I did notice small unconscious changes though. "Oh hang on, I'm sitting like this now? Aight."
Quote from: Arch on January 27, 2013, 11:29:16 PM
I think you're discounting all of the trans men who already had these mannerisms and took a lot of crap for it while they were still living as women. Before I transitioned, I decided that I wasn't going to change anything consciously--I was just going to be myself, and if people thought I was gay, then they would be right, and I would just own it. It worked like a charm, except that people don't read me as gay. (That has good points and bad points.)
I did later adjust a couple of things. For example, once my body fat had redistributed, I found a way of standing that doesn't accentuate my hips as much. And I try not to let my voice go up when I laugh. But that's about it...
I think you're missing the point. I myself have changed little about myself as well when I started transition and I pass most of the time now. I wasn't super feminine before transition nor did I have to train myself to "be a man" to pass. I think, generally, people think T is a super drug that will magically make them go from not passing to passing 100% in like 2 months on T. And while there ARE trans men who pass 100% pre-T and men who's mannerisms are masculine before transition, there are a whole bunch of people who are unrealistic of what T actually does. This is the purpose of the thread, right? My purpose for writing that post wasn't aimed at those who are masculine before transition or pass well before transition. It was aimed at those with unrealistic expectations that many people have about T.
Look at the "do I pass" thread. It's apparent that acting and looking male isn't so easy for many and many people need to ask for advice to pass. Just because someone is trans doesn't mean they automatically know what to do and how to act male. My post was aimed at them. If my post doesn't apply to you, then there is no reason to get upset. You obviously know what you're doing and are well into transition. My post isn't aimed at you.
My thoughts were unrealistic about T. I thought I would have a fair amount of facial hair and a deep enough voice to be seen as male at one year based on what I saw with other guys and my sibling8s. One year came and I next to never was seen as male. Year and a half, I go to pride thinking I'm looking good and that nobody will misgender me. But I was...a lot. And it want about acting masculine or not, or where I lived. It was just how my face and body were. I always had a round chubby face, and I continue to have one. So...I guess T didn't work as fast as I thought in the physical, exterior but it did an unexpected number in my physical health. The psychological too because I get really self conscious way beyond what I was pre T. Pre T I felt okay with not getting seen as male because I knew I wasn't on T.
It's not so much that testosterone ages you, as it is that for the first few years you are going through puberty again, which makes you look and feel more youthful After the puberty runs its course, then the natural ageing process reasserts itself. If you age badly, look at your lifestyle and genetics. You were going that route anyway. The exact gender specific details depend on the hormones you chose, but the road was already laid.
I come from a very youthful looking family. Once puberty ran its course, I resumed the family norm of looking young for my age. I knew guys who came from more normally ageing families, and once they were post-pubescent, they also looked fairly normal for their age.
I'm from an earlier time. When transition was a fight with the therapists, and if you weren't 100% adamant, you didn't get anywhere. If you didn't know your stuff, they sure as heck weren't going to tell you anything either. Going around the system if it did exist in your area was pretty common so that you could get things done. So I find these stories about people changing their minds a bit surreal.
Transgender is a big umbrella, transsexual is pretty narrow. There is no shame in being in the former but not the latter. Has the community lost that over the years?
Shortman
I'm kinda curious; Anyone here pass well before they were on T? Or before they even accepted themselve as trans?
Quote from: Scoot on January 28, 2013, 10:31:07 PM
I'm kinda curious; Anyone here pass well before they were on T? Or before they even accepted themselve as trans?
Yeah, I pass 99% of the time and did before T. It was due to an androgen producing benign tumor though. Why do you ask?
Quote from: Scoot on January 28, 2013, 10:31:07 PM
I'm kinda curious; Anyone here pass well before they were on T? Or before they even accepted themselve as trans?
I usually did. Why?
I passed for a young boy before I realized I was trans or even started binding, which I thought was weird because I'm not flat. If my friends were with me, they'd end up laughing hysterically at the "blindness" of strangers—which leads me to believe that we are more critical of ourselves than people care to observe.
Quote from: Scoot on January 28, 2013, 10:31:07 PM
I'm kinda curious; Anyone here pass well before they were on T? Or before they even accepted themselve as trans?
I started dressing in a masculine manner a few years ago before I realized and admitted to myself that this was how I am, and would pass on occasion. I even managed to spark a debate over it because half the people in a group thought I was a boy and the other half knew I wasn't- one thought I was trans but I wasn't out to anyone and automatically said no for fear of being labeled a freak. Now I'll gladly take that label. I hate being categorized, but I'm not going to swallow my identity and pride over it.
Then there was a time when my bf and I were mistaken for brothers. That was great, not to mention all the fun "mis"gendering that went on last Christmas while on vacation with extended family. Wasn't fun for my mom to hear a lady ask where her son went off to, but she didn't mind terribly because I wasn't out to her yet. Really stung when she corrected them but I couldn't do a thing about it.
I would drag myself over broken glass, molten lava, and electrified barbed wire if that were standing in between me and getting T. Unfortunately, some less harrowing but more limiting problems are in my way, but I hope that they resolve before too long, because there's a boy here who is banging on the cage walls and wants to grow up into a manchild who will never grow up.
Aging? Baldness? Hair in weird places? Please, I've had back hair since the day I was born. I'd rather be a boy in the body of a bald, hairy old man than a boy in the body of a woman. The steps towards maleness would give me the ability to become increasingly comfortable in my own skin. I don't hate women, but I sure as hell can't live like one. Being in a body known as "girl" is bad enough.
I don't expect to become Mr. Gorgeous on T, but hey, I can dream :P
Quote from: Scoot on January 28, 2013, 10:31:07 PM
I'm kinda curious; Anyone here pass well before they were on T? Or before they even accepted themselve as trans?
I did. And unlike Simon, my hormone levels were fine...for a ''chick''. But for me they weren't fine v_v
But I only passed once I accepted everything. All I did was master male mannerisms (talk, walk, etc.) and I started passing.
Guys that think T will solve all their passing problems are delusional.
Quote from: Scoot on January 28, 2013, 10:31:07 PM
I'm kinda curious; Anyone here pass well before they were on T? Or before they even accepted themselve as trans?
Yeah, one funny incident was when I dressed up really girly (schoolgirl-style skirt, lace stockings, frilly blouse with bows, and I had my Prince Valiant haircut, too) and walked around town. A woman came up to me and told me I was the spitting image of her son and how nice it was to see another boy dressed like that. When it happened I felt mostly proud but still a bit weirded out, same as when a classmate complimented me on my facial hair (meant as an insult, it felt like a compliment). This was a few years ago, before I had accepted myself. Other than that I pass sporadically and people tend to "correct" themselves a lot which is annoying, but hopefully T will make it better.
Quote from: Scoot on January 28, 2013, 10:31:07 PM
I'm kinda curious; Anyone here pass well before they were on T? Or before they even accepted themselve as trans?
I'd generally get a few random "sir's" and "young man's" long before I came out. I was told by a friend that I looked like I was always the masculine "girl" out of all my friends (I had an old fb account with pictures from when I was 13). Hell, even at a pool, I was asked by a bunch of kids, "Are you a boy? Did you used to be a boy?", and I wasn't really hiding much, I'd just shaved my head because it was too hot xD.
But, I've basically been living as male for a year and a half, and finally started T a week and a half ago.
Yup, I started passing pretty much as soon as I cut my hair, which was before I realised I was trans. Not as often because I hadn't worked out why certain clothes made me uncomfortable and still wore them, but I still passed. I'm still pre-T and I still pass a lot. The only mannerisms I remember the changing was how I crossed my legs, but even then I did it the guy way a lot.
Quote from: Darrin Scott on January 28, 2013, 09:38:31 AM
I think you're missing the point.
Okay, point taken, but a few qualifiers might make your intention clearer. Generalizations can kill your whole argument if the reader finds one tiny exception to the rule!
Since these days more and more guys are transitioning earlier, I suppose we're simply seeing the youthful "mindset" in action. It's wired into our brains for younger people to be (on average) more impulsive and less able or likely to think about long-term consequences or even consequences at all. I see this every day in my teaching career, and I don't run into many trans students.
Quote from: Arch on January 29, 2013, 11:25:37 AM
Since these days more and more guys are transitioning earlier, I suppose we're simply seeing the youthful "mindset" in action. It's wired into our brains for younger people to be (on average) more impulsive and less able or likely to think about long-term consequences or even consequences at all. I see this every day in my teaching career, and I don't run into many trans students.
True. Which is why my mother made me promise to only start physically transitioning once I was 18.
Even at 18 your brain is still not fully developed but I'm close to 19 and I have many physicians watching over me.
And even though I was angry at her, I'm glad I waited. Transitioning is serious and many don't seem to understand that.
Oups! Ranting, I'll stop now ._.
I'm not even sure what this thread is about anymore.
I'll just leave now *slowly creeps away*
Edit: HRT blockers wouldn't really count since it's not permanent.
Quote from: Jayr on January 29, 2013, 11:52:27 AM
True. Which is why my mother made me promise to only start physically transitioning once I was 18.
Even at 18 your brain is still not fully developed but I'm close to 19 and I have many physicians watching over me.
And even though I was angry at her, I'm glad I waited. Transitioning is serious and many don't seem to understand that.
Oups! Ranting, I'll stop now ._.
It was a good subject to rant about and shows wisdom from a 19 year old, we all need to take your comments seriously!
Quote from: Simon on January 28, 2013, 10:50:45 PM
Yeah, I pass 99% of the time and did before T. It was due to an androgen producing benign tumor though. Why do you ask?
Just curious; I was surprised so many transguys didn't pass. I've passed since I was eleven at least 50% of the time, and then by the time I came out, I was at 80% or so. Now it's rare I get misgendered and I'm not on T yet. I guess I was just wondering.
Quote from: Scoot on January 30, 2013, 07:32:31 PM
Just curious; I was surprised so many transguys didn't pass. I've passed since I was eleven at least 50% of the time, and then by the time I came out, I was at 80% or so. Now it's rare I get misgendered and I'm not on T yet. I guess I was just wondering.
Gosh you all are lucky. My voice is a dead giveaway. So unless I can figure out how to remain completely silent all the time, I'm not really sure how to pass at this point.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1279.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy537%2FDevlynMarie%2Fmime1_zpsc6a164eb.jpg&hash=cd3ae592c1dce656eca67487087dae0104d24975)
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 30, 2013, 07:53:05 PM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1279.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy537%2FDevlynMarie%2Fmime1_zpsc6a164eb.jpg&hash=cd3ae592c1dce656eca67487087dae0104d24975)
Lol Devlyn. Tempting...tempting.
When I was younger, in my twenties and early thirties, I was read as male a lot. Sometimes it only lasted while I kept my mouth shut. Sometimes it killed me to say anything because I wanted to dream for a little while.
Waiter: What can I get for you gentlemen?
Me: Uhhhh...
My Partner: I'll have a patty melt with no onions and a Coke.
Waiter, to Me: And you, sir?
Me: Uhhh <clears throat and half whispers> baconburgerandacoke.
Waiter: Oh, I am SO sorry, ma'am.
Quote from: Arch on January 30, 2013, 08:41:31 PM
When I was younger, in my twenties and early thirties, I was read as male a lot. Sometimes it only lasted while I kept my mouth shut. Sometimes it killed me to say anything because I wanted to dream for a little while.
Waiter: What can I get for you gentlemen?
Me: Uhhhh...
My Partner: I'll have a patty melt with no onions and a Coke.
Waiter, to Me: And you, sir?
Me: Uhhh <clears throat and half whispers> baconburgerandacoke.
Waiter: Oh, I am SO sorry, ma'am.
People have never actually done that to me, but I was/am still shy about speaking up so I'd always agree with my dinner partner what we wanted and then he'd do the ordering for both of us. lol.
Quote from: Frank on January 30, 2013, 11:28:37 PM
People have never actually done that to me, but I was/am still shy about speaking up so I'd always agree with my dinner partner what we wanted and then he'd do the ordering for both of us. lol.
But isn't that so...emasculating?!
It's funny. So many guys I know worry that they will be the one in a thousand (or however many) that T doesn't really work for (I worried about this), but then we have populations of guys who expect to turn into Charles Atlas or, on the flip side, body-hairless perpetual twentysomethings who never lose their hair or have high cholesterol or look even remotely middle-aged. We're all over the map.
Quote from: Arch on January 31, 2013, 12:16:26 AM
But isn't that so...emasculating?!
It's funny. So many guys I know worry that they will be the one in a thousand (or however many) that T doesn't really work for (I worried about this), but then we have populations of guys who expect to turn into Charles Atlas or, on the flip side, body-hairless perpetual twentysomethings who never lose their hair or have high cholesterol or look even remotely middle-aged. We're all over the map.
If it is, I never noticed. :P
I forgot to add a while back, my dad was bald in his twenties and never really complained about it. He just shaves it all off every once and a while. (He gets a monk ring of baby fuzz.) So arguing whether transmen are justified complaining about side effects or not is a bit moot since everyone will be different, even cis baldies.
Wait. What is this thread even about anymore?
Quote from: Arch on January 30, 2013, 08:41:31 PM
Waiter: What can I get for you gentlemen?
Me: Uhhhh...
My Partner: I'll have a patty melt with no onions and a Coke.
Waiter, to Me: And you, sir?
Me: Uhhh <clears throat and half whispers> baconburgerandacoke.
Waiter: Oh, I am SO sorry, ma'am.
I've had that happen a few times. I always just correct them for ma'aming me.
Whole Foods:Staff: Do you have any questions about the wines, sir?
Me: (Turning around.) Sure.
Staff: Oh, I'm so sorry, ma'am. How can I help you?
Me: No, you got it right the first time. Sir. I'm looking for a Syrah.
Staff: (Smiles awkwardly.) Oh, sorry about that. [wine talk resumes].
It has been way more fun this way. Haha—and I've yet to encounter someone who wants to argue with me about which it should be.
I've gotten the "air...OH MA'AM I AM SOOOO SOOO SORRY!!" One time I did say "no, you were right, it's sir" and the woman got upset. =/ Like, as in she felt really guilty for not knowing.
Quote from: Caleb. on January 31, 2013, 02:54:38 AM
I've gotten the "air...OH MA'AM I AM SOOOO SOOO SORRY!!" One time I did say "no, you were right, it's sir" and the woman got upset. =/ Like, as in she felt really guilty for not knowing.
Hee... That's HER problem. :)
So far, I've been really nice about it and I'll laugh with them.
The other day Kaiser called me and the agent on the line kept adding ma'am to end of every sentence so I finally said, hey, if you have to be formal, I get it, can you just use sir? Or better yet, just use the first name. She was like, Oh... Uh... Okay...
Quote from: ford on January 30, 2013, 07:49:08 PM
Gosh you all are lucky. My voice is a dead giveaway. So unless I can figure out how to remain completely silent all the time, I'm not really sure how to pass at this point.
I remember the first time I heard Justin Beiber's rapping over the radio. I seriously thought for a minute that Pink had written a really bad song until someone said, no, that's that new kid...
Anyway, his voice is still high. Sometimes, they just have high voices... My voice was pretty high in my opinion before T (it's dropped a bit) and sometimes I got away with it. It's changing way faster than I thought—I almost feel too lazy to talk now because I find myself suddenly having to work on sounding clearer which requires more energy.
Quote from: Tejas on January 31, 2013, 02:53:00 AM
I've had that happen a few times. I always just correct them for ma'aming me.
Whole Foods:
Staff: Do you have any questions about the wines, sir?
Me: (Turning around.) Sure.
Staff: Oh, I'm so sorry, ma'am. How can I help you?
Me: No, you got it right the first time. Sir. I'm looking for a Syrah.
Staff: (Smiles awkwardly.) Oh, sorry about that. [wine talk resumes].
It has been way more fun this way. Haha—and I've yet to encounter someone who wants to argue with me about which it should be.
I do this too :) It's amazing though how many people express loud disbelief, open confusion, frustration at me for confusing them, or even begin to argue with me once I've let them know they were right the first time. I can't believe so many people are unable to control themselves in an awkward or unexpected social situation and just roll with it. I think it's the double blow of confusion - they think they're right then they think they're wrong and then they're told they're right but they think YOU are wrong. They don't stop to think that someone can't actually be mistaken about their own gender ::) :)
I have to keep reminding myself that this is a big event in their day, meeting someone who doesn't fit their expectations of gender, and stop myself from getting angry or upset, because it happens to me all the time.
Quote from: Arch on January 31, 2013, 12:16:26 AM
It's funny. So many guys I know worry that they will be the one in a thousand (or however many) that T doesn't really work for (I worried about this)
This is what I worry about. What if I never look like a guy?
Quote from: Edge on February 02, 2013, 08:32:55 AM
This is what I worry about. What if I never look like a guy?
If you talk like one it might not matter as much as you think. A deep voice and a male name can be powerful cues.
I know a couple of guys with perfectly respectable tenors who sound great. Every once in a while, they complain that T hasn't done what they had hoped. Inwardly, I roll my eyes...and then, sheepishly, remember that I still hope for my own baritone to go deeper. ::)
It's not unrealistic...
I'm male. I need to live in a male body. End of story. Coming up on 5 years for me and zero regrets. It's amazing waking up and feeling at home in your body. Gray hair? Baldness? Beer gut? Bring it on. I'd rather be an ugly old man than a gracefully aged beautiful woman.
At this point, I couldn't just 'go off T' anyway, nor would I ever want to subject myself to estrogen again.
Jay
Quote from: Felix on February 02, 2013, 04:14:28 PM
If you talk like one it might not matter as much as you think. A deep voice and a male name can be powerful cues.
This. I have met many cis males over the years that are quite effeminate in features, and I'm not talking about stereotypical gay men, either. These men have softer, rounder features, baby faces, and have been confused for women. Some tend to have bigger moobs as well. All have just shrugged it off when it happens and state confidently hey, I'm a guy, name's Joe or something similar.
Any trans guy who would stop T because he's gotten too hairy, lost some hair, gotten too deep a voice, or otherwise obviously knows nothing about being a man. I've been on T for over 3 years, and had to go off for a year; no thank you! Are there really guys out there sufficiently naive that they would undertake such a transition without being informed as to what the attributes of their target gender are?
Quote from: Luc on February 03, 2013, 08:49:29 PM
Any trans guy who would stop T because he's gotten too hairy, lost some hair, gotten too deep a voice, or otherwise obviously knows nothing about being a man. I've been on T for over 3 years, and had to go off for a year; no thank you! Are there really guys out there sufficiently naive that they would undertake such a transition without being informed as to what the attributes of their target gender are?
Hey, I know a guy that stopped after 3 years and after being post op top and bottom. He's more than happy in how things panned out. Maybe people would consider him "vain" for not wanting to lose his hair but he's comfortable with himself, isn't that what matters?
Quote from: Nygeel on February 03, 2013, 09:50:24 PM
Hey, I know a guy that stopped after 3 years and after being post op top and bottom. He's more than happy in how things panned out. Maybe people would consider him "vain" for not wanting to lose his hair but he's comfortable with himself, isn't that what matters?
So...he's on estrogen?
That doesn't mean that they work...but since you said he was post-op, I thought he didn't have any of that stuff anymore.
Quote from: Arch on February 03, 2013, 11:09:45 PM
That doesn't mean that they work...but since you said he was post-op, I thought he didn't have any of that stuff anymore.
They do work. He had phallo and thought it through.
Sounds like he had an unusual plan. It's definitely not for me, but as long as he's happy...
Quote from: Scoot on January 28, 2013, 10:31:07 PM
I'm kinda curious; Anyone here pass well before they were on T? Or before they even accepted themselve as trans?
I very frequently was "mistaken" for male before I was out or transitioning. I had a deep voice and failed at girl things. That's not to say I could pass all the time. T has helped a lot.
I know I answered that one out of order.
I don't think I could ever be happy stopping T but I've met quite a few guys who stopped once they had some facial hair and whatnot and who seemed to be okay with it.
Quote from: Scoot on January 28, 2013, 10:31:07 PM
I'm kinda curious; Anyone here pass well before they were on T? Or before they even accepted themselve as trans?
I was close to 30 and still passing. I spent my entire youth basically living as male to most of the world (those who didn't know me or my family). My parents let me have short hair, dress in male clothes. I did male activities (except for a forced stint in the girl scouts which was pretty awful and having to play girls softball because the league wouldn't let me play baseball) and had mostly male toys. So really, I was never a girl and only had to act like one on certain occasions. My parents used the excuse that I was a "tom boy" when trying to explain me to others. If I bust out old pictures I'm almost always determined to be male by anyone I show them to.
The real big thing that I think keeps me from passing now is just age and the fact I don't have more than some under chin stubble as far as facial hair goes. So most people don't know what to make of me and just assume female I think. If I go on T again it would probably only be for a short time since I have no interest in transitioning.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 07, 2013, 02:02:13 PM
If I go on T again it would probably only be for a short time since I have no interest in transitioning.
If you did that, would it be mainly for the voice? Do you think you could stand to be on T for six months or however long it takes?
Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 07, 2013, 02:02:13 PM
he real big thing that I think keeps me from passing now is just age and the fact I don't have more than some under chin stubble as far as facial hair goes. So most people don't know what to make of me and just assume female I think. If I go on T again it would probably only be for a short time since I have no interest in transitioning.
I think it might be a big thing when you are older is lacking stubble and facial hair. I am guessing it is one factor for getting misgendered just about 100% of the time. Also why younger transguys get mistaken for MUCH younger guys.
--Jay
Quote from: Arch on February 08, 2013, 09:30:28 PM
If you did that, would it be mainly for the voice? Do you think you could stand to be on T for six months or however long it takes?
I doubt I could do the shots since I wasn't cool with how I felt after those when I tried it before so if I try hormones again it would be the compounded cream/gel variety and I suspect I'd have to try it 3-6 months to get any voice change or potential added facial hair. The tiny bit of whiskers I have now showed up in the short time I did the shots before but those are higher dose than cream so I'd think 3-6 months might do enough to make me more comfortable with myself.