I dress very professionally, take out all of my piercings, everything in my power to look presentable. They love me over the phone, I'm polite, I'm charming etc. But when I show up to meet them, they look at my name, and the gender on the application, and after I'm gone, they never contact me again. What's up with that??
What happened to equal-opportunity employment with no gender identity bias?
Yeah, I've had that same problem. I don't think theres much we can do about it. I had applied at a grocery store. Lady interviewed me and afterwards she said she'd contact me in a week whether I got it or not, just to let me know. Two weeks, she still had contacted me. I called her and it went to voicemail. I left a message and she never called me back. I don't think theres anything to be done. We can't prove that they're doing anything because of our gender. Maybe someone else will have some ideas.
I heard someone say, "The hardest job you'll have is looking for a job." and that is SO true in my experience. And its only gotten worse since the 90's in my view. Computer systems now look for keywords on resumes. Mind you, these computer systems are written by people and I would not be surprised if the authors never considered the transgender situation so when say the gender marker changes in some search, boom, exception CRASH! No results returned.
My partner looking for work had the same, "Don't call us, we'll call you" crap doled out at her and her would-be employers didn't know a thing about me.
Now, I've said dumb things in interviews. I thought I was a lock for a job at Apple HQ in 2004, I was actually writing my resignation letter to my then current employer at the San Jose Airport! Fortunately, I got the rejection before I delivered it (I was that confident). I didn't talk about gender then but after a great deal of reflection, cause darn that one hurt so I went over it again and again in my head, I did say a lot of stupid things I didn't realize right away.
OH! That still hurts to re-live!
From my failures, and there are others I'd prefer not to recount at the moment, I hope to be able to maintain confidence that the jobs I don't get in the future will have nothing to do with my gender situation and more to do with crappy algorithms and mistakes I make in the heat of a interviewing moment. I'll probably wonder if gender plays a role, but I'd rather believe that on the whole people are good, fair and don't care about my gender as long as I or any trans person can do the job. If I don't believe that, I'm worried I'll get bitter and make getting a job harder still.
Speaking from the manager perspective, I can honestly say that very very few people have the courage to ask how they did in an interview and seek feedback. Also very few people ask about the workplace, typical work week or show interest beyond trying to peddle their skills. Interviewing is a give and take and sometimes I feel like I am pulling teeth trying to get an idea of truly interested people are in the job. If the question isn't asked then volunteer the question. Being a good interviewee is quite a task.
Some times if I interview a candidate I am looking for something specific and if I don't see it, the person won't get the job even though they might seem completely qualified.
As far as resume scraping (keywords on resumes), bad recruiters scrape resume boards and good recruiters look at a person much more holistically. 90% of all jobs are not done through resume boards,newspapers, etc but personal contacts. Those outlets are just black holes to make resumes disappear.
I also interview a lot of people. Most jobs I'm interviewing for have 70-100 applicants. Usually I will interview 4. How do you get to the four?
I look for reasons to reject. Most people I reject on the cover letter. Illiterate, applying for the wrong job ( not uncommon), not spelling my name correctly, getting the application number incorrect. Too long, too short. Irrelevant stuff.
Resume.
Is it true? All resumes are padded, that's fine, but is it true?
Has it been a formula resume. I hate them. Keywords, I hate them.
If you can't write your own resume don't apply to me for a job. I have them, perfect resume and the personality of a plaster cast, the two don't match, reject straight away.
Job record, why are there gaps? Explain. I know it is a tough world and jobs are short. Did you sit on your ass for a year or did you do some volunteer work. Are you happy watching day time TV? If so, I don't want you. You stayed at home and looked after the children, fine, what else did you do? Go to mother or dads groups? join a bookclub with the other parents. What? tell me
Referees, who are they and how do they relate to the job record.
Interview.
Neatly dressed and presented. Having washed in the recent past is good (sorry >:-)).
I ask basically the same questions to each candidate, I have a minimum of three people on the panel. We take notes and I warn the candidate that we will write as we talk.
For basic positions they questions are so standard that they are on the internet. Be aware of them and practice them.
Be confident, if you are scared, tell the panel, nothing wrong with that.
Do your research, know job and the company and the requirements. RESEARCH I'll do it too you. I will check your facebook. If you never get interviews look at your media profile. You made it.
I'm pretty sure Zumbagirl and I don't care about your gender ID. In the past I have failed a Gay guy who was so flamboyant that there was no way he would fit into my teams. He, I think, was trying to be noticed as a special, care free worldly guy. He came over as a ->-bleeped-<-.
I have refused a person for tattoos. He had swastikas and love/hate tats that were visible (obviously) he seemed very very pleasant and cultured. I wouldn't feel safe to have him with my young female staff or my overseas staff and students. Discrimination? Yes; his problem.
I had a "Christian' who started to 'speak' in tongues. Interesting, no thanks you may lose the plot when you are supposed to be doing your job.
TG and Gay etc people in general. I don't ask for peoples gender or sexual preference or anything. One it doesn't matter to me, secondly in my country it is against the law.
But some people volunteer stuff, why? I'm not interested, the panel isn't interested and all of a sudden there is a negative mark. Why? the person is caught up in their own issues that has no relevancy to me. They are distracted, forget them.
Have questions for the panel. If you don't it suggests you are not interested.
A nice one from the other week that hit all of my buttons, and got the person the job. "Can you tell me what I will be doing in some detail on a normal day in the job". Loved it. Put me back on my heels, they took command, they had a brain, they were keen. And they listened to the answer and asked questions and not the 'Ask a question and let the eyes glaze over' performance.
Feed back.
Very very rare.
Sorry
Cindy
Quote from: Cindy James
A nice one from the other week that hit all of my buttons, and got the person the job. "Can you tell me what I will be doing in some detail on a normal day in the job". Loved it. Put me back on my heels, they took command, they had a brain, they were keen. And they listened to the answer and asked questions and not the 'Ask a question and let the eyes glaze over' performance
Cindy
There you go right there, showing interest. I work in IT and have to interview people for 6 figure jobs. You would be utterly surprised at the sheer number of chuckleheads at that level. People whose entire first page of their résumé is just keywords. I had to complain about recruiting and tell them to stop searching on keywords.
Being TG is not an obstacle in a work life unless you want it to be or working in a store selling bibles or something. Remember I am a TG person too so I can empathize.
I had a similar scenario when I first went full time and I needed a job. I got my fair share of doors slammed in my face so I can relate. I simply crossed that place off and said who wants to work for those jerks anyways (actually I used stronger language). I got my next job through a connection from a prior boss, not monster, dice, newspapers anything. I pursued the referral with vigor, stopped acting like a victim and 2 weeks later I had my first job as a woman. The rest is history :)
Reformatted broken quotation
I shared this in an email session with one of our people here not long ago.
In my past working life I have run and managed several different companies and have worn a lot of hats. I am going to give you a head's up on what perspective employers and HR people are looking for. This should give you an edge in your hunt for meaningful employment.
Most people trying to hustle a job always make the mistake of making it all about them. The HR people pick up on this right away, they are notoriously cold hearted and ill-mannered often playing god at your expense and seldom even respond to your resume. Let's discuss the resume first; keep it brief and BS free. They are lazy and won't read a lengthy, flowery resume. The best comment you can make on a resume is that you are interested in being a profitable asset to an employer's business. The best thing I can do here is give you an example by sharing my own experience several years ago.
I live in the Seattle area and back in the early 1970's there was a major regional downturn in the economy, Boeing was the only big employer in town then and most other company's economy was connected to how Boeing was doing. I was fresh out of the army and had worked as a house framer until I was laid off. Someone gave me a tip that there was a delivery company in town that might be hiring a delivery driver. I walked in the door of their terminal with a map book in my hand, a sack lunch and a hand-truck and found the supervisor. He had just taken an application from two guys and put them in a drawer with several hundred other completed applications and told them that he would call them if he needed any help. His attitude and body language told me that he was a real jerk. He asked me what I wanted and I told him that I was ready to go to work. He gave me an application which I filled out and as he was putting it in the drawer with the others, I told him that I wasn't there just to satisfy some kind of unemployment ritual and that I was ready to start right away and knew the city and county streets and roads well. He said, "What will you do for me?" He really was saying what makes you so special that I should take a chance and hire you? I told him that I would give him two days work for free and if I'm not cutting it he can let me go and won't be out any money over it. I worked there for eleven years before I moved on to something better.
The point is you don't want to tell them I need a job, they already know that and don't care. What you want to tell them is that you are interested in their company and feel that you can be a positive asset and eventually be able to increase their profitability. You have to sell them on yourself and not come across as just another piece of needy dead wood. Present yourself as an energetic, perky and positive type. You follow that game plan and it will put you light years ahead of your competition, good hunting!
I thought it was illegal (according to Fed law) to ask about gender and age?
Also, if you apply, they seem very happy with you, meet you, then do not contact you again...that would be grounds for a discrimination complaint.
The idea was created during the early days of Affirmative Action...if a black person applied, met all the requirements but was not hired...and there was an exceptionally low number of blacks working there (relative to the local population, although the word "quota" is not used) that is considered proof of discrimination. The only defense for the company is to hire an appropriate number of the "protected class".
Right now, the list doesn't include trans, but I suspect that is changing...and one of the better ways of spesding the process is to insist we deserve it.
Because we do!
Good luck! :)
I have interviewed for many jobs prior to transition. I will be a great candidate and really fit in with the group. However, there is just something about me that doesn't fit in. That's fine, they need to be happy with who they hire. Many times they say they will let me know either way, but they don't. I don't take this personally. They are often very busy people and some things just slip their mind. It has nothing to do with me.
Failing to tell people about not getting the job.
Can I give a brief explanation?
Most of my positions are applied through electronic media, I have no choice I have to use the program that the company is committed to.
Most responses on it are pre-programmed, the places for individual text are limited. It is basically click a box and hit send. It is very impersonal and I don't like it, but I have no choice. I do have phone calls from failed candidates and I always discuss the interview etc with them on the phone call, I will give advice if asked for it. I personally feel that it is the correct thing to do. But I rarely have time to phone them.
It's so easy today to find out people who work in a company from places like linked in. Try using something like that instead of the black holes. I tried a strategy a long time ago that I have to be serious actually worked. I wrote letters directly to the CEO of companies where I wanted to work and explained what kind of person I am. Within a few days I had interviews at all of the companies. Just a thought and for the record I tried this after my transition not before.
Quote from: Zumbagirl on January 25, 2013, 10:44:57 AM
It's so easy today to find out people who work in a company from places like linked in. Try using something like that instead of the black holes. I tried a strategy a long time ago that I have to be serious actually worked. I wrote letters directly to the CEO of companies where I wanted to work and explained what kind of person I am. Within a few days I had interviews at all of the companies. Just a thought and for the record I tried this after my transition not before.
Good plan Zumbagirl! An end run around the HR people is the best way to get noticed and though the HR staff resent it, a CEO would think that it shows bold initiative!
Most letters for employment that were sent directly to the CEO of a company would most likely get rerouted to HR by the CEO's secretary.
I'll just say that I got interviews at every one of the companies I did this with. I think the trick is having a really good cover letter since that is pretty much all that would be read. It may have gone to hr, but it sure opened the door in a hurry. It just takes the guts to try it :)
Quote from: Zumbagirl on January 24, 2013, 08:58:36 AM
Being TG is not an obstacle in a work life unless you want it to be or working in a store selling bibles or something.
I totally agree. Never let them see it as something that needs to be talked about, because that's negative weight. If they know, act like it doesn't matter and that's the best thing you can do for yourself (and other transsexuals).
Quote from: Cindy James on January 24, 2013, 05:10:14 AM
I'm pretty sure Zumbagirl and I don't care about your gender ID. In the past I have failed a Gay guy who was so flamboyant that there was no way he would fit into my teams. He, I think, was trying to be noticed as a special, care free worldly guy. He came over as a ->-bleeped-<-.
That's messed up. You didn't hire him because he was too "flamboyant" for your team?
Diversity makes for a stronger workplace.
As for whether there is discrimination or not I think when you look at Transgender employment rates it is clear that there is.
Which is a shame because we are just people.
Quote from: opheliaxen on January 26, 2013, 12:27:29 PM
That's messed up. You didn't hire him because he was too "flamboyant" for your team?
Diversity makes for a stronger workplace.
As for whether there is discrimination or not I think when you look at Transgender employment rates it is clear that there is.
Which is a shame because we are just people.
I need people who are capable at working as a team, not a solo player. I like personality as much or more than most but if someone goes out of their way to demonstrate that they are not a team player at a job interview then they are showing me potential problems for the future. I don't need those problems. In the case mentioned it was obvious that the person was very interested in self and not others. I had no room for him in that position.
I think you are making an assumption that people have a right to a job no matter how they present at interview. You are wrong, the employer is the person employing and makes the selection based on who is going to be the best fit.
Burento, you haven't actually said how you look or what your legal sex is...and when you talk to people over the phone, do you not give them your name? Is it casual or more like a phone interview?
I work in academe, so things are a bit different. The uni where I work is very queer-friendly. That's where I transitioned, and nobody treats me like I'm anything unusual. That, in and of itself, can be quite weird because I'm apparently the only one who ever thinks "Arch is a freak." My transition was very anticlimactic, but I was well established there.
The community college where I work is more conservative, but staff and faculty are pretty open, and the college itself has official pro-queer policies and resources. However, I applied there after transition, and nobody ever sees me as anything but male.
Do you live in a large city? Do you research each company's official stance on LGBT issues? Many national companies publish this stuff online where anyone can access it. Maybe you're living in too small a community, or maybe you've been applying to some conservative companies. What kinds of jobs are you applying for? If public contact is required, the companies might be worried about their image if you are legally female but come across as very butch. But I'm just guessing here. And it might not be gender-related.
Quote from: Cindy James on January 26, 2013, 04:23:27 PM
I need people who are capable at working as a team, not a solo player. I like personality as much or more than most but if someone goes out of their way to demonstrate that they are not a team player at a job interview then they are showing me potential problems for the future. I don't need those problems. In the case mentioned it was obvious that the person was very interested in self and not others. I had no room for him in that position.
I think you are making an assumption that people have a right to a job no matter how they present at interview. You are wrong, the employer is the person employing and makes the selection based on who is going to be the best fit.
I think sometimes you have to look past cultural differences that make you uncomfortable to assess real value. Known many "flamboyant" characters who have also been terrific at their job. Thank goodness they were given the opportunity and not written off.
You miss my intent completely. In the case of debate case I needed a person to do a particular job in a particular environment. That person needed to fit into a team to do the job. If a person wants that job they have to convince me that they are capable of doing the job and fitting in to the team. If they cannot do that they will not get employed.
The background of the thread was how to get employed.
Simply, no matter my personal feelings, if a person, in my belief, will not fit in then they will not get the job.
Interestingly, you have focussed on the flamboyant character and have not mentioned the person with suspicious tattoos. That person was very focussed and very aware of himself and very driven. He had all the boxes ticked except for raising my concerns about intolerance. The flamboyant one appeared far more interested in self promotion than being driven to do the job.
Why do you discriminate between them?
I know why I did; so who would you employ, or would you move on to another candidate?
Quote from: Cindy James on January 28, 2013, 02:14:51 AM
The background of the thread was how to get employed.
Simply, no matter my personal feelings, if a person, in my belief, will not fit in then they will not get the job.
Why do you discriminate between them?
I know why I did; so who would you employ, or would you move on to another candidate?
Cindy,
This is a good wake-up call for a generation of people who are being deceived by the idea that fairness and having a job is a right. The real world outside of nirvana doesn't work that way! The attitude expressed by job hunters is so often; I need a job, I'd like to know what it pays, what kind of hours, and will I get sick leave, paid holidays and vacation benefits, how about lunch and other breaks? Do you have daycare facilities for my small children? How long is maternity leave? Do I get profit sharing and a 401- K plan?
Not much if any thought goes in to
what can I do to show this potential employer that I will be a valuable asset to this company and perhaps find ways to increase profitability at the bottom line? The answer to this last question will be what may get you hired, while the previous group continues on out through the revolving turnstile.
The interviews I go on these days don't tend to be very skills oriented. They used to focus on finding out if I had the skills, but I have enough experience and references now that they kind of assume that they are there. Instead, the interviews tend to be meeting the senior staff of the company and finding out if my personality will be a fit for the team. Nobody wants a cowgirl/boy in their midst. They want a team player and they want to make sure they have that before making an offer. It's a lot easier to bring skills up to date than it is to change someone's personality that's going to screw up the group dynamics.
I got my two jobs through perseverance.
For months I brought my resume around my town (VERY small)
I'd write down where I had gone and the name of the supervisor,
after 3 or 4 weeks I'd do my round over again.
Eventually employers started remembering and recognizing me.
Out of the blue employers started calling me, and now I work at two different places and it's going great.
I had no experience, never had a job before, so I had nothing to show what I could do.
One of my employers even told me she regretted hiring this other guy over me, so when she noticed my resume on her desk yet again she called. If I hadn't brought my resume there yet again, I would have never gotten that job.
Determination will get you far my friend.
Quote from: Cindy James on January 28, 2013, 02:14:51 AM
You miss my intent completely. In the case of debate case I needed a person to do a particular job in a particular environment. That person needed to fit into a team to do the job. If a person wants that job they have to convince me that they are capable of doing the job and fitting in to the team. If they cannot do that they will not get employed.
The background of the thread was how to get employed.
Simply, no matter my personal feelings, if a person, in my belief, will not fit in then they will not get the job.
Interestingly, you have focussed on the flamboyant character and have not mentioned the person with suspicious tattoos. That person was very focussed and very aware of himself and very driven. He had all the boxes ticked except for raising my concerns about intolerance. The flamboyant one appeared far more interested in self promotion than being driven to do the job.
Why do you discriminate between them?
I know why I did; so who would you employ, or would you move on to another candidate?
I don't have a problem with tattooed either.
What does interested in self promotion mean?
Quote from: opheliaxen on January 28, 2013, 06:30:08 PM
What does interested in self promotion mean?
Probably one who has a driving need to be the center of attention above anything else.
Quote from: Shantel on January 28, 2013, 06:56:09 PM
Probably one who has a driving need to be the center of attention above anything else.
How does one gauge that in a one on one interview? Of course he'd want to be the center of attention. He's trying to get a job!
Quote from: opheliaxen on January 28, 2013, 11:47:57 PM
How does one gauge that in a one on one interview? Of course he'd want to be the center of attention. He's trying to get a job!
Big secret no-one gets, the job isn't about what the company can do for you, it's about what you can do for the company. An HR person will instinctively pick up on that right away. They wear glasses with windshield wipers that wipe away the BS so they can get a clear sense of vision concerning the applicant. Not something worth arguing about, it is what it is.
Quote from: Shantel on January 29, 2013, 09:58:55 AM
Big secret no-one gets, the job isn't about what the company can do for you, it's about what you can do for the company. An HR person will instinctively pick up on that right away. They wear glasses with windshield wipers that wipe away the BS so they can get a clear sense of vision concerning the applicant. Not something worth arguing about, it is what it is.
How is that a big secret no one gets? You sell yourself to the company because you want them to see you as an asset to bring aboard. Which is intrinsically self promotion. You want to stand out from other candidates.
Whatever.
Quote from: opheliaxen on January 29, 2013, 01:38:47 PM
How is that a big secret no one gets? You sell yourself to the company because you want them to see you as an asset to bring aboard. Which is intrinsically self promotion. You want to stand out from other candidates.
Whatever.
Big difference between promoting the company's interests above your own need to have a job. We can parse every comment and disagree about semantics but it is what it is!
Quote from: Arch on January 26, 2013, 06:15:31 PM
Burento, you haven't actually said how you look or what your legal sex is...and when you talk to people over the phone, do you not give them your name? Is it casual or more like a phone interview?
I work in academe, so things are a bit different. The uni where I work is very queer-friendly. That's where I transitioned, and nobody treats me like I'm anything unusual. That, in and of itself, can be quite weird because I'm apparently the only one who ever thinks "Arch is a freak." My transition was very anticlimactic, but I was well established there.
The community college where I work is more conservative, but staff and faculty are pretty open, and the college itself has official pro-queer policies and resources. However, I applied there after transition, and nobody ever sees me as anything but male.
Do you live in a large city? Do you research each company's official stance on LGBT issues? Many national companies publish this stuff online where anyone can access it. Maybe you're living in too small a community, or maybe you've been applying to some conservative companies. What kinds of jobs are you applying for? If public contact is required, the companies might be worried about their image if you are legally female but come across as very butch. But I'm just guessing here. And it might not be gender-related.
I've yet to get any interviews, so I'm thinking maybe it's my town, I live in a town of 2-3,000 people, and the Navy is very prevalent here. My legal gender is female, but I'm working on starting my transition to being myself, aka male.
I do look very masculine, and I have a super effeminate name. I also live on the conservative half of the island, so I'm thinking maybe I should try the south end, which is more liberal.
Quote from: Jayr on January 28, 2013, 09:39:42 AM
I got my two jobs through perseverance.
For months I brought my resume around my town (VERY small)
I'd write down where I had gone and the name of the supervisor,
after 3 or 4 weeks I'd do my round over again.
Eventually employers started remembering and recognizing me.
Out of the blue employers started calling me, and now I work at two different places and it's going great.
I had no experience, never had a job before, so I had nothing to show what I could do.
One of my employers even told me she regretted hiring this other guy over me, so when she noticed my resume on her desk yet again she called. If I hadn't brought my resume there yet again, I would have never gotten that job.
Determination will get you far my friend.
I'm thinking of doing that as well, however, I am a tad afraid that I'll get the door shut in my face yet again. I would call after two weeks of nothing back from a potential employer that I had taken a resume to and turned it in face to face and politely introduced myself., and they would get agitated when I asked, nicely mind you, if they had had the chance to take a look at my application/resume yet.
Folks, I have been a hiring manager who has conducted hundreds of interviews. Let me give you a couple of tips for a good interview:
1) Show up dressed like you want the job, especially if it is an office-type job.
2) Be neatly groomed, and if possible, find out ahead of time of the employer has grooming and dress codes.
3) Introduce yourself to the interviewer(s) and shake his/her/their hand(s). Use "Mr." and "Ms." when addressing your interviewer.
4) Be polite and succinct in the interview. Think a moment about your answers and speak intelligently.
5) Get the name(s) of the interviewer(s), business cards, if possible.
6) Follow up the interview immediately with a thank you note. You may not get that job, but you will leave a favorable impression. I have called back good interviewees when new positions opened.
Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on February 22, 2013, 08:32:47 PM
Folks, I have been a hiring manager who has conducted hundreds of interviews. Let me give you a couple of tips for a good interview:
1) Show up dressed like you want the job, especially if it is an office-type job.
2) Be neatly groomed, and if possible, find out ahead of time of the employer has grooming and dress codes.
3) Introduce yourself to the interviewer(s) and shake his/her/their hand(s). Use "Mr." and "Ms." when addressing your interviewer.
4) Be polite and succinct in the interview. Think a moment about your answers and speak intelligently.
5) Get the name(s) of the interviewer(s), business cards, if possible.
6) Follow up the interview immediately with a thank you note. You may not get that job, but you will leave a favorable impression. I have called back good interviewees when new positions opened.
Do that. :P Still no jobs. But I'm over-qualifying for some jobs and under-qualifying for others. -.-; This degree is sucking majorly.
But, I do think perseverance is a key thing. So is being polite. I've gotten jobs in the past just because of that and not because of my qualifications.
Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on February 22, 2013, 08:32:47 PM
Folks, I have been a hiring manager who has conducted hundreds of interviews. Let me give you a couple of tips for a good interview:
1) Show up dressed like you want the job, especially if it is an office-type job.
2) Be neatly groomed, and if possible, find out ahead of time of the employer has grooming and dress codes.
3) Introduce yourself to the interviewer(s) and shake his/her/their hand(s). Use "Mr." and "Ms." when addressing your interviewer.
4) Be polite and succinct in the interview. Think a moment about your answers and speak intelligently.
5) Get the name(s) of the interviewer(s), business cards, if possible.
6) Follow up the interview immediately with a thank you note. You may not get that job, but you will leave a favorable impression. I have called back good interviewees when new positions opened.
I'm good up until #3, the problem is, I can't even get them to give me an interview. I'm very well mannered and polite, as I was raised to be. My grandmother nailed in a great set of manners into me. (I grew up in a rather upscale household, and I was expected to behave as such.)
Anyways, points taken, and I shall do my best to remember them and follow through assuming I can get an interview C:
Quote from: Aaron Gabriel on February 22, 2013, 08:40:07 PM
Do that. :P Still no jobs. But I'm over-qualifying for some jobs and under-qualifying for others. -.-; This degree is sucking majorly.
But, I do think perseverance is a key thing. So is being polite. I've gotten jobs in the past just because of that and not because of my qualifications.
Alrighty, thank you! I'll keep at it!
Wow, that is a small community. Any chance you can look for work outside of it? Or have you already tried that?
Quote from: Arch on February 22, 2013, 11:11:49 PM
Wow, that is a small community. Any chance you can look for work outside of it? Or have you already tried that?
Nothing without at least a 2 hour commute by bus, and off island buses cost money I don't have
My biggest concern is my driver's licence/ Social security card difference. my driver's license still has my old name because the BMV can't seem to understand that I'm British, changed my name via deed poll, I live my life as Keaira and even the social security office changed my name when I presented them with my deed poll. I'm worried that that right there will screw everything up for me. :(
That's one of the reasons why i try to look and dress unisex and not completely masculine:(((( I know that it will be very hard for me to get a job if i look like a man but have a female's name and i am a female according to the documents. :(((((
I interviewed for a job on Wednesday. I am full time, but still visibly trans. I got hired. Not every place out there cares that you are trans. As long as you have the skills they are looking for, you are in.
I ran for UPS three peaks running and despite being #1 on record each day (oh yes, I have it on paper) I still didn't get the permanent insider position. I'd actually been pulled into the management office at the end of my first run and guaranteed that job, shook hands and everything, but then next year rolled around... and the next... and then they didn't call for the fourth peak or the fifth (put in my applications anyway but nothing), this last peak they even went so far as to move orientation out of that hub to another hub in a different city JUST to avoid me (I am not kidding, they'd never done that before and it was a last minute thing because they'd had the interviews there which I did get too). All for no other reason than the fact they suspected me of being gay and it would be a liability and blah blah blah, or so that got back to me from the grapevine (well, they're way off the mark on that one aren't they? But apparently that reservation doesn't hold true to management personnel, because the route coordinator was flaming... but yeah). I mean I literally worked so hard for them that all I could do at the end of the day was sleep and sleep and sleep then do it again. Destroyed my back and knees for them. Bled for it. And that's what I got for my efforts: nothing. Not even usable work-experience, apparently.
You know what, that wasn't the only incident. I'd applied for the same position I'd been told I'd be called back to start in the previous year, and I accidentally got sent the email from the HR manager (to the seasonal coordinator manager) saying he didn't "want to hire [her] with all those new eyes watching". Probably should have taken action on that but, foolish me, I thought I still stood a chance some other time. Wrong.
Then in December of 2011 the manager of the Vons down the street that me and my mom have been going to together since I was 12 actually chased US down to ask if I was still looking for work. It was an unusually cold morning the day of the interview so I decided to wear my thicker flannel (dark green and black, all I had) shirt under my thin and only jacket at the time (we're not well off and my wardrobe is seriously lacking so I don't have fancy 'wow-factor' stuff for these situations, but which are business-casual stuff). Well, come to find out from a checker my mom's friendly with, she said I didn't get it because of my clothes......... I was wearing exactly the same black slacks and black tennis shoes that everyone who works there wears, barring their tan Oxford (uniform, you know – so my clothes really shouldn't have had piss-all to do with it). And, instead, they hired some kid with EXTREMELY stretched our earlobes! I mean, you can see straight through them. Oh, and then some really "I own the place" manager's daughter (which I know because she was practically yelling it out at the top of her lungs while strutting around the isles). So that was the final straw for me.
I pretty much have given up after five years of this crap. I've put thousands of applications out there, everywhere within 50 miles, I've also physically gone around to everywhere I could think of as well and all I'm told is "there's the door" or else "online only, here's the kiosk". I just can't catch a break, even if I destroy myself trying. Really sucks.
My grandmother swears it's not just because of my trans situation, but also because I'm a bit fat (and I mean only a bit, I'm far from huge and unhealthy looking - not that I personally think that should really matter either but you know). She seems to be laboring under the delusion that becoming a stick-figure will help. I say she's wrong. Either way, it's been extremely difficult for me to lose any fat the conventional ways. It really is because of endocrine and metabolic disorder in my case. Even when I was eating as healthy as possible, I still couldn't lose anything (hell, not even when I was pretty sick over my condition and couldn't eat I STILL couldn't lose anything. It's pretty bad when you're gaining weight while completely fasting for two days!). That's changing on T but even then, I still will never be that 'sexy' anorexic-thin kind of shape she seems to think will get me a job, despite my tans thing. Riiiiiiiiiight. ::)
I'm just totally screwed, though. And I thought the big-brown shark tank on my resume thee consistent Peaks running (80% don't even make it the first week in our area) would help me at LEAST get a little part time "any moron could do this" job but I guess being trans screwed that up. Don't know what else to do anymore.
Short of showing up in drag... well, I can't do it. I don't even know the first thing about being feminine. I couldn't play it up to save my very life. I'm just absolutely positively not feminine at all. I don't even have any ingrained feminine 'tells' at all either so I *really* couldn't do it even long enough to get through an interview and to get hired. Ugh.
Anyway, yes... discrimination is definitely around in droves, still. And it is only going to be worse the farther and longer this depression (because I say hogwash to 'recession') goes. We're just about surpassing the 1920's conditions here with this and as such, all the employers want the very, very, very cream of the absolute top of the crop. Employer's market conditions, not employee's now and that's not going to change any time in the foreseeable future. So getting a job while being trans, and not having documents reflecting everything as the same (gendermaker, name etc.) will be like hitting the lottery and hitting it big. Or so that's my experience, because it sure isn't happening for me.
'Equal-opportunity' need not and does not apply anymore. I know that much. :-\
Magnus, have you tried for jobs with the gov't, like bus driver? Or for non-profits, with paratransit services? As a person with driving experience you'd be needed, and often whoever is providing paratransit service is hard up for good people who are not only good drivers, but honestly care for the passengers...
Gov't job hiring practices are typically MUCH more open-minded, unless you're trying to get hired in Mayberry RFD...
I can honestly say I haven't tried for government work. I've always heard you need to know someone to get you into it. But I wasn't driving the truck, just riding shotgun and doing 90% of all the actual delivery work. Although my driving record is spotless without even a ticket so perhaps I could look for truck driving or something but honestly, I don't think that would be good for my health being behind the wheel all day and night without exercise and living on fast food etc. I'm not counting it out, but I'd rather try to find something that allows me to live a healthy lifestyle if at all possible first.
And no job has been beneath me. I've applied to all sorts. But then I am in an area that has been one of the most hardest-hit. SoCal is truly half-way down the drain. We have 0% job growth, we're only losing them. It's just vicious here. I wanted to go to Texas because there actually is some work out there but I can't do that either on account of not being able to save up some money for such a risky venture. And I'd likely not be able to find a way to get my T which is not just for my trans thing, but my health too. So... really, I'm just stuck and out of ideas. :-\
Have you registered at any temp agencies or contingent places? Sometimes they can help you get a foot in the door for something that might develop into full time later on.
My mom did that recently, she got nowhere with any of them and has decades more office experience than I do. Including inventory control and billing. I don't think I'd stand a chance if she couldn't.
I'm not ruling it out but I feel sure it would be a huge waste of time for both myself and them. I have zero office experience and they want that above all else.
Actually, I feel that is the core of the problem. I don't have much experience other than seasonal UPS stuff (which used to mean something). Yet, there is NOWHERE that will give you it, that initial leg up, to then later on go and get the jobs that want/require it. So it's just a dirty, vicious cycle of that. And then again, there's the "overqualified" camp from the college route. You just can't win right now.
Also, if I do get employment that only just barely covers my gas expense then I lose my T and if I lose my T, I get sick again (as well as my transition stopping dead). So that's another layer of it. If I get a job it can't be for $7/hr at 40 miles each way. You know? Just... argh. :-\
I really DO want to work. I just can't find anything reasonable (reasonable would include minimum wage around the neighborhood too but not way out somewhere that will cost a fortune in gas and put me in the hole as if I weren't even working at all).
I kind of want to think it this isn't necessarily you being transgender thats holding you back at work. Employment in certain areas is bad enough that employers are holding back from hiring and keeping employees depending on projections with how their execs think the economy will be going in the future. Allot of that is still pretty negative even though were hearing on the news "Unemployment is getting better". One example orders for durable US goods had decreased quite a bit. The housing market is showing improvement, but still its mostly investors (Driving up prices working people can't afford right now because wages are still really bad).
I could speculate that the shipping industry is hurting with the recent laws being passed to tax online sales like local sales and consumers are going back to just buying local products. I want to say hang in there.
I just graduated college with a business degree and had taken a short break from working (been working since high school) and so far im having trouble even finding minimum wage (thats part-time and no benefits) work. Even with two degrees and over 3 years experience in retail im getting turned by stores like Wal-Mart for entry level cashier postions. The fact is they are getting thousands or applications for these positons.
I think eventually the economy will come back, most of this stuff goes in waves. Were just still in a bust/recovery mode (hopefully) .
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Note: this only goes to 2008
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Im having similar issues to allot of people here and not being able to find work, and im not even "out", look completely male. So I can say for sure that im not being effected by discrimination.
Honestly I think its just the economy. Were gonna have to wait it out or make your own jobs if you want good work.
It's tough. I just started E a month ago (graduation gift to myself), and I've had to stop because I can't afford it. I can't even really afford housing or food ether. Getting a minimum wage / part-time job won't really help with that ether, and so far I'm having trouble getting that. I know it feels hopeless right now. I feel like im going to be stuck and grow old as a guy.
It's very hard to get a job these days... I am lucky to have one but i know a lot of people who have no job and no money and they are struggling really hard. There were times in my life when i was jobless for very long periods of time - 5 months or even a year.
I live in Europe and the situation here is very bad, in some countries it's worse than in the others. Some countries have unemployment rate as high as 20-25%. And even if you are lucky enough to get a job it's very likely you will be stuck with a minimum wage.
I am not "out" so i have never been discriminated because of being transgendered but i am absolutely terrified about the whole idea of being male full time cos i KNOW i will have very big social problems. It will be very hard for me to get a new job, to find friends, etc. People here aren't tolerant or liberal enough. And T isn't cheap as you know so i was thinking what if i go on T and then end up jobless for a long time and won't be able to afford T anymore - what will i do then?..
I got my job, then had a good amount of drama, but I got my new job while trans. And let me be clear, I do not pass. They knew even though I did not explicitly out myself.
What I can't keep myself from thinking is, one reason unemployment is so high in the community is because of the side effects that being trans can cause. Lack of ability to trust, anger/fear from being closeted, coming across as judgmental by having a base assumption that people are going to discriminate against us. Then there is the outright, yet understandable though perhaps not so well by a cisgendered person, debilitation some of us have from having the wrong genitalia which is one of the many ways being trans can lead to depression. Taken together, if those interviewing you can't say "Yes" to the question of "Do I want to spend eight+ hours a day five days a week with this person?" you're in for a tougher climb.
Then there is the other side with being full-time. If you're not confident in your new role, that could be misinterpreted by your interviewer as you're not confident in your ability. Oh and if you at all come off like you're a victim, or you indicate that you yourself view being trans as something that makes you a second class citizen, that can be a turn off too. On that latter sin, on my job hunt a year ago I'm sooooooooo guilty.
There's lots of reasons why unemployment in the trans community is so high. Sure, plain discrimination that we're trans is without question one. But I can't stop believing that there are other things we do / have happen to us that makes it harder on ourselves. Just in liberal places, in conservative religious places, I've found the cisgendered community too cool on the whole for me to believe otherwise. If I'm right then the good news is, while we can't stop being trans, many of these other things are totally addressable so there's hope we can turn our chances around!
Am I making any sense to anyone else at all?
Quote from: Misato on April 27, 2013, 04:30:57 PM
Oh and if you at all come off like you're a victim, or you indicate that you yourself view being trans as something that makes you a second class citizen, that can be a turn off too. On that latter sin, on my job hunt a year ago I'm sooooooooo guilty.
I would like to comment on being a "second class" citizen. I know some people who really think that transsexuals are mentally ill. I know it sounds very rude but that's the way things are. I personally know a few people who think this way about us. They don't know that i am trans cos i am not officially "out" but when i tried speaking to them about transsexuals that's what they told me. So naturally they really believe we should be treated as a second class citizens because we are sick and we can't work/study the same way "healthy" people can.
Hm... I wonder what would happen if i came out... They know me as a very interesting person with a great sense of humor and a responsible worker, and i seem absolutely normal inside and out. What would they think? Would they start treating me differently? The only thing i know for sure is that they would be completely shocked. >:-) :laugh:
Quote from: dean1229 on April 28, 2013, 04:21:01 AM
I would like to comment on being a "second class" citizen. I know some people who really think that transsexuals are mentally ill. I know it sounds very rude but that's the way things are.
As I acknowledged with:
Quote from: Misato on April 27, 2013, 04:30:57 PM
Sure, plain discrimination that we're trans is without question one.
Two jobs ago there was a story going round the workplace where one of my co-workers met a woman and when they said hi, the woman replied in a very deep voice, outing herself as trans. This was of course a big joke. It was years later before I came out and I recently had lunch with them. No problems at all.
People can shoot their mouths off without thinking, aping bad jokes they see on TV or in the case of guys "protecting" their manhood. When things get real, sometimes at least, the tune changes and they end up being super cool. I mean, if my farmer uncle can find out about me and say, "you're shi**ing me! Well, as long as she's happy" there is hope for anyone.
Quote from: Misato on April 28, 2013, 07:51:00 AM
People can shoot their mouths off without thinking, aping bad jokes they see on TV or in the case of guys "protecting" their manhood. When things get real, sometimes at least, the tune changes and they end up being super cool. I mean, if my farmer uncle can find out about me and say, "you're shi**ing me! Well, as long as she's happy" there is hope for anyone.
You are so right, and what stands out about you is
attitude no-one passes, maybe they think they do, but genetic females in the workplace pick up on trans people instantly, but so what? You have the right attitude and that is where the pass comes in, they give you a pass on attitude.
Quote from: Shantel on April 28, 2013, 08:12:39 AM
You are so right, and what stands out about you is attitude no-one passes, maybe they think they do, but genetic females in the workplace pick up on trans people instantly, but so what? You have the right attitude and that is where the pass comes in, they give you a pass on attitude.
I don't know what other people think about who passes and who doesn't. To be clear, I'm pretty sure some do. I just know I don't pass cause I keep getting misgendered even while wearing skirts and form fitting blouses that don't hide my boobs.
The attitude of accepting "I don't pass" helps me. Talking about it, I hope, may help someone else find happiness.
Looking for work is hard enough as it is. I had the last two places I applied for not call me back, but I'm not sure why. Sometimes I do think it has something to do with me not looking female enough or looking "lesbian", which for anyone who knows enough lesbians and straight people you will realize that there are both very feminine looking lesbians and very masculine looking straight women out there. I am talking about my current state as pre-transition but as a crossdresser. But I also have anxiety problems. Sometimes I think got turned down for anxiety, other times because of unspoken gender or sexuality reasons and maybe other times for other reasons. Not knowing sucks. Now I got hired somewhere but I wore women's clothes to an interview because I didn't have any "fancy" enough men's clothing I could wear and I thought wearing the women's clothing would make me more likely to get hired than if I wore my usual shorts and a T-shirt. Yeah, well that's kind of a mistake because now I am in the position where I'm sure I will want to wear what I usually wear, men's clothes, to work and I am thinking of transitioning as well. The company I will work for, I believe, has a tolerant attitude towards gays at least but I'm not 100% sure of how they will act if I just go in there wearing guy's clothes every day. They said it's a casual dress code as well. I should be fine. I really hope I am fine here because I know there is a possibility that they would give me a hard time. After being out a job for a year it is good to be able to work again, so I am hoping I don't have trouble because of possible discrimination. The last job actually helped push me to the realization of who I am in more ways than one, but the biggest being I had to dress in women's clothing, they wouldn't allow me to wear the men's suit or men's clothing to work I don't think. It was draining for me to wear feminine clothing for such a long time and those mary jane shoes, I felt so out of place in them! But I did it, and otherwise the job had some positive aspects to it, if I could disassociate from what I was wearing. Anyway, it was a good learning experience and probably necessary because I was just about as closeted as possible on the trans train at that time. Well, temp agencies can help with finding a job, I will second what the other poster said there. I actually got one of my favorite jobs, security, from a case manager. Having a spotty record is not helpful, and it is not for a lack of trying always. Or even discrimination. I wish you luck. It might be a good idea to do something like compile a list of places hiring that have a reputation for being non-discriminatory, if you can find out which ones they might be, and apply for those place(s) first?
Target is a good place to apply. They are very lgbt friendly.
Quote from: Shantel on April 28, 2013, 08:12:39 AM
You are so right, and what stands out about you is attitude no-one passes, maybe they think they do, but genetic females in the workplace pick up on trans people instantly, but so what? You have the right attitude and that is where the pass comes in, they give you a pass on attitude.
Correct! I think a tiny minority do, but these are girls who transitioned as children. And even most of them don't. Sadly a lot of trans women have the delusional male ego which allows them to think they pass. I don't have that male quality though i have others(like a tendancy to be a problem solver, straight talker, impatience, the list goes on...). I'm very glad I don't have the unstoppable ego male trait because it turns genetic women straight off. but then again the trans with that male quality probably don't notice so perhaps ignorance is bliss.
Good thread, lots of good info. :)
Lucia,