This is an odd question, but it's something I've noticed in myself when watching YouTube videos and photos of MtF transitions: does anyone ever feel jealousy towards transsexuals who are transitioning towards your birth gender?
When I see videos of beautiful transwomen, I feel this pang of jealousy and I'm not sure why. Am I jealous because they make more convincing women than I ever could? Am I jealous because I secretly want to be a woman? Am I jealous because I'll never have a girlfriend like them? Am I jealous because they're much better-looking than me in general? All of the above?
It's a strange thing and I'm not really sure how to feel about it. What do you think?
Well as a transwoman I'm jealous of all people born with a natural female body, since that's something I'll never experience. Of course I know most trans men would have given anything not to have been born that way, but that doesn't stop a little bit of jealousy.
Nope, I never feel jealousy when I see a beautiful transwoman. I feel something but it sure ain't jealousy. :laugh:
Hi AlexD,
Great questions you've posed here. They are all really good one to ask your therapist. If anyone knows you, he/she should be doing a better job than all of us combined.
Give it a go.
Huggs
Catherine
Quote from: AlexD on January 16, 2013, 08:30:50 PM
Am I jealous because I secretly want to be a woman? Am I jealous because I'll never have a girlfriend like them? Am I jealous because they're much better-looking than me in general? All of the above?
It's a strange thing and I'm not really sure how to feel about it. What do you think?
I have always thought that all we really need is one of the mad scientist brain swapping machines :) it would make things a lot easier lol
Absolutely.
Though I also feel quite, (possibly more) over Transwomen who have achieved so much more than I have or will.
Perhaps it's about turning a negative emotion into a positive, but making that envy into support and example.
Don't all women have a tad of in-built jealousy? >:-)
I do at times, but then I realise that we are all individuals. What is good looking to you may not necessarily be good looking to me, and vice versa.
So, when the green monster comes for a visit, go and sit down and paint your nails or pluck your eyebrows, epilate or wax. It quickly makes you forget about your jealousy. Works for me.
Huggs
Maegan
Quote from: agfrommd on January 16, 2013, 08:35:16 PM
Well as a transwoman I'm jealous of all people born with a natural female body, since that's something I'll never experience. Of course I know most trans men would have given anything not to have been born that way, but that doesn't stop a little bit of jealousy.
Me too except for male bodies.
What Zumbagirl said. And I also wonder what on earth they thing they are doing. Why would anyone want to be a man?
There was a stunningly sweet looking young woman at my first group meeting and I just thought "This is insane. How can she not want to be her?"
Quote from: Simon on January 17, 2013, 02:55:03 AM
Nope, I never feel jealousy when I see a beautiful transwoman. I feel something but it sure ain't jealousy. :laugh:
Heh. I keep telling myself I'm just attracted to them, and I'm sure that's part of it, but idk. I think I'm lamenting the fact that I'll never be a "true" girl, whatever that means, and that these women who weren't even born with the correct bodies are doing it better than I ever could, despite being born biofemale.
Thanks for the responses, everyone. It's kind of disheartening to see nobody else thinks like I do, hah, but I suppose these are the doubts of a male-leaning neutrois more than a fully-fledged FtM. :/
Quote from: Simon on January 17, 2013, 02:55:03 AM
Nope, I never feel jealousy when I see a beautiful transwoman. I feel something but it sure ain't jealousy. :laugh:
This is awesome, ha. Agreed.
FWIW, I've often felt jealous of FTMs. My reasons:
- They tend to find passing much easier, once they've had top surgery and HRT, especially.
- I've never heard an MTF report that someone they told about their transsexuality asked them, when they were going to do something about it (on the assumption that they were a woman, intending to transition to male). I hear/see this story in the reverse quite often from post-transition FTMs.
- There's no doubt in my mind that socially speaking, it's easier to live as a man in this society. I really wish I could do that and still have any sense of integrity. It would be so much simpler.
- I recall academic studies that noted that, while FTMs do have many of the same social maturation problems that MTFs face, they have had a better history of being accepted and admired, especially within the lesbian community. Granted, there are those in the community who are hostile to both FTMs and MTFs.
- I greatly admire how FTMs tend to be much more practical and no-nonsense about transition. Once they make their minds up, they often just get on with it... far less of the hand-wringing and self doubt that is common to many (and hugely dysfunctional in my own life) about how I have approached things, allowing many who had no place in my life to influence and even negotiate matters surrounding an identity that, at some level, has never really been in doubt for me.
This is particularly ironic, now that I am dealing with supporting my son, emotionally, at least, through his own transition.
You'll get no argument from me that (like most of the moms I talked to when my kids were infants, toddlers and young children) dressing a girl is a lot more fun. There are a few advantages, but I also don't know any woman who really, completely is at peace with or "likes" her own body. And this is such a huge source of insecurity for many of us, no matter what we end up looking like post-transition, or in some cases even before transition.
Quote from: girl you look fierce on January 17, 2013, 01:45:14 PM
, being trans just sucks and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Some parts of it suck. Others I wouldn't give up for anything. Sometimes I feel like it's the best part of me. I used to think it was almost spiritual. The whole reason I am putting myself through this grief of counselling is to try and be that person as much as I can.
BTW Elspeth you said some interesting things about doctors the other day with which I agreed. I've been meaning to reply (not with anything immensely important) but can't find the thread. I'm not deliberately ignoring you I'm just lost on the site.
Quote from: girl you look fierce on January 17, 2013, 01:45:14 PM
being trans just sucks and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Sorry you feel this way. I don't think it sucks and in many ways has enriched my life. Thinking "it sucks" will just make your life suck.
Quote from: Simon on January 17, 2013, 02:55:03 AM
Nope, I never feel jealousy when I see a beautiful transwoman. I feel something but it sure ain't jealousy. :laugh:
LOL...yeah for me, even after 2 years in The Process...I'm like, "wtf?" And I have to convince myself each time that not everyone detests being a guy...*hugs* to my bros out there in trans-land...best wishes in your journey.
Quote from: Anna on January 17, 2013, 05:40:29 PM
Some parts of it suck. Others I wouldn't give up for anything. Sometimes I feel like it's the best part of me. I used to think it was almost spiritual. The whole reason I am putting myself through this grief of counselling is to try and be that person as much as I can.
The spiritual aspects are one of the main parts I cling to as almost a "calling" or sense of mission in being trans. Part of this comes, I suppose, from realistically expecting that I am unlikely to ever fully be able to ignore that which makes me different from other women. But I do find comfort and a sense of direction, as well, by reflecting on the various "two spirit" traditions in various cultures throughout history, and the kinds of roles those like us were drawn to and revered for serving in those cultures that could not simply choose to demonize us. There's a lot in the history of how women were marginalized in Western culture in particular that I find useful and focusing when trying to come to peace with myself, and seek ways of being that are constructive and affirming, and show that we are not merely creations of a technological and "medicalized" age.
I do wish some of those who still demonize us would take some time to study those traditions in depth, and realize that we are not the threat.
Quote from: Anna on January 17, 2013, 05:42:44 PM
BTW Elspeth you said some interesting things about doctors the other day with which I agreed. I've been meaning to reply (not with anything immensely important) but can't find the thread. I'm not deliberately ignoring you I'm just lost on the site.
I tend to talk about doctors more than a little bit. My most recent post concerning them was this one (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,133953.msg1065711.html#msg1065711)?
This being a fairly active board, it is easy to lose track of threads. If that one is not the one, perhaps you could recall some other details about what you were wanting to comment on, Anna?
Quote from: Elspeth on January 17, 2013, 06:22:39 PM
I tend to talk about doctors more than a little bit. My most recent post concerning them was this one (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,133953.msg1065711.html#msg1065711)?
This being a fairly active board, it is easy to lose track of threads. If that one is not the one, perhaps you could recall some other details about what you were wanting to comment on, Anna?
Or, you could go to Elspeth's profile, click on "show posts", and browse until you find it.
I used to be jealous of trans women because they could DO that. Then I got internets and found out there were trans guys too. XD
Quote from: Beth Andrea on January 17, 2013, 09:33:32 PM
Or, you could go to Elspeth's profile, click on "show posts", and browse until you find it.
Ah. So that's how it's done. Thank you. I just didn't want to appear rude & IMO being rude is worse than looking stupid on a thread.
I used to make a joke with my male pals on the street, where you see this chic in front with a real fancy coat/dress... I'll say I really like that dress, go beat her up and grab that dress for me!!
Elspeth, This is a really good post. I agree with most of it too. I feel it's male privilege. Last night I found a sort of a sick thing about trans guys. And one thing it said, which I will clean up is basically everyone agrees with them because being a guy is better (I think in this case meaning more status).
T really helps. It's kind of opposite. One thing I have read here is that hormones do better at adding than subtracting. They can lower your voice but not raise it, give you hair and not take away, etc. I agree about the less hand wringing more practical approach. I think it is based on two things: one is that obviously being male is more accepted, dressing male is more accepted (so we can experiment with presentation more easily-- who cares, no one has given me a side-long glance). And two, I can't explain it, but if you look at the posts the mtf ones focus on a lot of feelings and are deeper. The ftm are a lot more practical concerns: what packer, what binder, where to go for top surgery, the T shot, etc. There could be quite a few reasons for that-- men tend to be more practical and so on, or FAABs are socialized to be more helpful, or estrogen is more associated with feelings and their expression, etc.
BTW, there *are* advantages that mtfs have. For one thing is that SRS actually works pretty well. Not saying that no ftm is happy with it, but a lot of guys are just not. It probably took me MUCH longer to figure out I was trans, because I didn't know I could be trans. Though I think that's pretty much not going to be an issue any more.
As for jealousy, funny thing. I have the feelings but they don't worry me or anything. I feel they are normal. My girl friend and I joke about it ALL time. We could also trade sizes, that wouldn't hurt either. I don't think, unless it is all consuming and wrecks up your life, that it is a too important topic for therapy. I think a certain amt of it is just built in.
BTW, there's a collab channel that calls the spiritual aspect of trans-- trans-mission. Kind of cool, though I think of car parts. I don't see being trans as all negative either.
--Jay
Quote from: girl you look fierce on January 20, 2013, 06:18:22 AM
Honestly it's pretty hard to use any positive words to describe being born trans...
I console myself by telling myself that I know things that cis women never will. I've seen the world from the other side. They never have. When my transition is mostly past, I will have experienced 100% of the gendered world, while cis people never experience more than 50%.
Quote from: girl you look fierce on January 20, 2013, 06:18:22 AM
Maybe it's different from the perspective of someone who transitioned from a more full, normal life as their birth sex that they could at least cope with.
I wonder whether this describes the pre-transition life of anyone born in today's culture? I feel like I avoided some self-damage and self-hating by embracing who I was to the degree that I could, but much of doing that, for me, is an act or reframing my past and those experiences, in the best light possible, and trying to extract whatever good I can find in those experiences. There are plenty of incidents and insults I could dwell on, if my aim was to keep reminding myself how painful my childhood and many of the years since then were for me.
One of the reasons I keep harping on (and am likely to do so as long as I'm breathing) my feeling that we need to change society to embrace gender non-conforming children, and stop assigning gender at birth has to do with those kinds of common insults and injuries. I haven't met anyone yet who wasn't damaged by them in some way. Not sure that the most unequivocal cisgendered person isn't also damaged by that basic falsity that's built into the social structures most of us have to cope with from birth onwards.