Ya must have heard it before, likely have heard it too much probably by people trying to be nice, but just not getting a vital detail in the process.
"Oh but guys do that too".
I just want to scream back, 'I don't really care!!!'
Look, guys do a lot of things women do.
They breathe, they eat, they sleep, they go to the bathroom, guys drive cars, they watch movies, the read books. Yes I get it, guys do a lot of things, things that women do as well.
But just because I do a long list of things guys can do and likely often do, doesn't mean I have less reason to feel like a woman.
I wash the dishes in my kitchen, oh but guys wash dishes in their kitchen (well so I am told, I don't recall seeing it much in my life).
Yes, but, how many guys do it wearing an apron? Ok some miiiiiight, but don't hold your breath while looking. How many think it is sexy doing it bare assed with just the apron on? Oh so we are getting a bit different now are we?
I get so frustrated hearing people try to make men seem so ordinary doing things that I spent a life time being taught was woman's work.
I do NOT want reassurance I have not lost my masculinity damn it! I don't have any lost masculinity to search for.
Frankly I don't want to hear one more goofy comment about surrendering my man card for some violation of the man code. The next person is likely going to be clobbered by my purse.
This was a vent by the way.
Talking about your feelings.... Turn over your man card! Just kidding! :laugh:
Anywho, people are people, and we do stuff, male or female. :P
Bareback with only an apron? Umm... too much information, lady. :o
Quote from: girl you look fierce on January 31, 2013, 10:16:40 PM
Doing dishes is women's work??? Ok that is kinda sexist.
She's not saying that she agrees with that. She's saying something completely different. The people in her life tell her this sort of antiquated values, yet continue to say that despite doing these things, she's still a man. She's venting about the hypocrisy. \/\/\/\/
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 31, 2013, 09:42:45 PM
I get so frustrated hearing people try to make men seem so ordinary doing things that I spent a life time being taught was woman's work.
Transitioning isnt about doing what the other genders do, it's about making how we feel on the INSIDE, match with our lives and bodies on the OUTSIDE.
And I loved doing dishes when I was a guy (by hand! Rarely used a mechanical dishwasher). Wife would cook, and several times a week I'd do the dishes (rotating with the kids).
Never cooked as a guy (wife did not allow trespassing in "her territory" LOL), but now have my own kitchen...and yes, I am the type that would go with just an apron. Can't cook bacon in the nude, you know.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on January 31, 2013, 11:34:28 PM
Transitioning isnt about doing what the other genders do, it's about making how we feel on the INSIDE, match with our lives and bodies on the OUTSIDE.
And I loved doing dishes when I was a guy (by hand! Rarely used a mechanical dishwasher). Wife would cook, and several times a week I'd do the dishes (rotating with the kids).
Never cooked as a guy (wife did not allow trespassing in "her territory" LOL), but now have my own kitchen...and yes, I am the type that would go with just an apron. Can't cook bacon in the nude, you know.
:icon_yikes: :icon_yikes: :icon_yikes: :icon_yikes: :icon_yikes:
Quote from: Beth Andrea on January 31, 2013, 11:34:28 PM
and yes, I am the type that would go with just an apron. Can't cook bacon in the nude, you know.
Beth, will you marry me? :P Lol.
My boss said to me last night: "You're going to have to get a manlier car, you know".
Well, I would do that boss, if I could afford it. But I'm too busy trying to afford my Gender Therapist, so the wussmobile will have to do for now.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 31, 2013, 09:42:45 PM
I wash the dishes in my kitchen, oh but guys wash dishes in their kitchen (well so I am told, I don't recall seeing it much in my life).
Where else would dishes be washed? * pictures herself taking a bubble bath with a bunch of plates and bowls *
Yeah the problem with sexist beliefs is we get them pounded into our heads, right till it is convenient to ignore them.
I see if from both sides of the fence too.
You are supposed to open a door for a lady, right till she gets pissed off you treated her like a lady. So you treat her like an equal, and then she gets pissed off for being treated poorly.
Lots of members here seem to have prior military service, so likely will recognize this issue from other than just a news item angle. A woman in the military gets sexually harassed by a man, and she pulls the sexual harassment card and wants sudden special treatment. When the correct response should be several of her girl friends 'correcting' the offender by arranging to beat the snot out of him and ensuring it looks like he not only tripped on a bar of soap, but accidentally rammed his head through the bathroom wall. Because if a woman can't cope with some jerk in the military getting out of hand then she's got no right to the rough and dangerous world of the military.
Yes I was brought up in a world where a kitchen was a woman's place. I didn't invent the stereotype, I am only reminding you of it. It hasn't gone away.
My son had some friends over the other day. Two young ladies along with his buddy who knew the two young ladies. They didn't know me beforehand. They were being shown my hobby room. No it's not a 'man cave'. It's not because the other half is the kitchen. I am in a room that has a partition divider of no account. The room is about 11x20 at most. 11x9 is effectively the kitchen. the rest has a wall of windows and a door to the balcony and two walls an interior wall and an exterior wall. It might be a man cave if I was an ordinary man and I needed to call it that. The tanks might tend to look masculine. I pointed out to the girls though, the Sailor Moon figures contradict the tanks, and the Haruhi Suzumiya cloth wall scroll contrasts nicely with all my dad's old steam engine photographs I have on it. Maybe if I had my sewing machine set up in here it would help I suppose. The thing is, the kitchen is indeed my domain as well.
My wife 'helps out' with the cooking in the same manner most husbands try to make themselves useful if they wish to earn points. I do most of the meaningful cooking around here. The only reason the fridge has sensible food in it is because of me. My wife eats like just about any atypical single male.
It's not easy to really call any one part of the housework mine and hers. I do all the housework accept the laundry. It's on par with the cliche old fashion set up, where the wife ensures the house works and the husband comes home after being at work and doesn't do anything. And with some luck and badgering, you can get him to do some yardwork on the weekend.
Alas my wife is disabled (depression) and isn't currently working. I try my best to keep her active in her day, but it isn't easy. I'm already forced to cope with my very own crushing limitations. It often takes monumental effort to get off my ass and do my own housework.
But I do all of this within the real world, where men are still considered to be people that do A B and C and woman do D E and F.
And saying, well anyone can do ABCDE and F, is also politically correct garbage that is merely ignoring the fact our society doesn't really believe it.
And on top of that, you have all the world's religious dogmas swirled into the mix.
I was married in a Calvary Pentecostal church (only one I could get to perform the ceremony at the time). They wouldn't budge on the marriage classes (6 sessions of silliness if you ask me). I was raised Anglican, but the local church, the one I went all of my life, simply wasn't interested in my schedule reality (I worked out of town). I must say, and I am not concerned if this bugs any of the Calvary Pentecostal faith that the entire 6 classes were such incredible, and inexcusable male chauvinistic garage. They think very little of their women, who are sure as heck not equals, not in that church that's for sure. Oh they were quite sure the woman's place was in the home, and serving her husband who was the head of the family and he was to be obeyed. Damned lucky for me I am a master of my language. I was able to reply to all their requests to write what I thought of very carefully taken out of context passages in the bible with words that wouldn't sink my chances of continuing to have a bride interested in me.
There's nothing wrong with a man doing housework. And guess what, if that man is single, well he either does it, or it doesn't get done.
Single men that are fathers have likely to become a lot of things they would rather a woman did for them. But, life doesn't always care.
But we sure here no small amount of the dialogue on 'family values' coming from various portions of society. I'm not making this stuff up eh.
Chances of being elected to high office if you are a married man and a church goer are a great deal better than if you are a single male, womanizing, atheist after all.
People simply don't like to have some truths stuffed in their face.
It's one of the reasons we have so much trouble we of the transgender reality. I look like a fairly handsome man if I have my hair neat and washed and I am wearing nice clean clothing. I am not in a hurry to BE handsome. I don't like being called handsome, any more than most men want to be called 'pretty'. It feels as good on my ears as it would for them.
Heck there are plenty of women out their ok with society's idea of their supposed place.
I really wouldn't mind a life of sun dresses and shopping and looking after the house and a spouse that went to work in the morning and was back in time for the dinner I had prepared. But the wife isn't a lesbian. It doesn't seem to reach her though, she's married to one. I am just really only stuck in a man's body is all. Sex to me, is the same as sex is for any other lesbian only I have better toys mine are more realistic. I feel good during sex the same way I am sure any other lesbian feels it. I just don't have the same clean up conditions.
I'm still a real person in here though. I am just not the sort of person I think anyone is expecting.
My boss said to me last night: "You're going to have to get a manlier car, you know".
So guess I don't need to be driving my 4x4 Chevy 2500 HD truck with a 4 inch lift, fancy wheels, and mud tires any more then huh?
No way I'm giving her up for some "wussmobile".
Quote from: FTMDiaries on February 01, 2013, 05:30:39 AM
My boss said to me last night: "You're going to have to get a manlier car, you know".
Well, I would do that boss, if I could afford it. But I'm too busy trying to afford my Gender Therapist, so the wussmobile will have to do for now.
LOL!
Of course, wussmobiles get better gas mileage. It's a proven fact.
So I'm driving a wussmobile and if anyone wants to call me a sissy I'll hit them with my manpurse (murse?).
--Jay
Re: Mentioning 'but guys do this too' (drives me nuts)
Um but guys do do dishes lol. Theoretically, anyway. I can load the dishwasher and that's about it.
Bummer is wanting to play some computer games, and realizing your finger tips are sore from cleaning the dishes.
My mouse left button finger is shot.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on February 01, 2013, 07:55:59 AM
Yeah the problem with sexist beliefs is we get them pounded into our heads, right till it is convenient to ignore them.
Happens to me too, except only from one side of the fence. Father's side is all men put up the tables and chairs, then go watch football. Women do all the cooking, men eat and go back to the game. Women do all the cleanup too. My mom's side is if you didn't cook it, you're cleaning it. It's hard to get those out of your head after years of them being drilled in. I always had a major problem with my father's side because they always seemed to buy the heaviest furniture possible and even with weight lifting, I was only about 5'10" 100lbs (too much cardio). But because I was a "guy", I was supposed to just man up, risk injury, and carry it anyway. I was so envious of women for not having to deal with that.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on February 01, 2013, 07:55:59 AM
You are supposed to open a door for a lady, right till she gets pissed off you treated her like a lady. So you treat her like an equal, and then she gets pissed off for being treated poorly.
Reminded me of the time I was volunteering for an ambulance service. I offered to help carry stuff and she freaked out that she's not a weakling. Then we go get something to eat and I hold the door and she goes off on me in the middle of the restaurant about how insensitive it was for me to hold the door, like she can't do it herself. She was my shift chief, so I didn't stay volunteering there for long after that night.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on February 01, 2013, 07:55:59 AM
But I do all of this within the real world, where men are still considered to be people that do A B and C and woman do D E and F.
And saying, well anyone can do ABCDE and F, is also politically correct garbage that is merely ignoring the fact our society doesn't really believe it.
Totally agree here. I wish it wasn't so because then I could get rid of my gender dysphoria and only tackle my physical dysphoria, but it doesn't work that way. Because I have so many traits that society considers feminine, I have to also address a gender issue and that's the one that causes the fear. If nobody cared how you presented, there would be no reason to be afraid the first time you leave the house in a new set of clothes.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on February 01, 2013, 07:55:59 AM
I must say, and I am not concerned if this bugs any of the Calvary Pentecostal faith that the entire 6 classes were such incredible, and inexcusable male chauvinistic garage. They think very little of their women, who are sure as heck not equals, not in that church that's for sure. Oh they were quite sure the woman's place was in the home, and serving her husband who was the head of the family and he was to be obeyed.
I'm sure this varies by church. I was raised Methodist and always attended the same church for years. When the movie footloose came out, I talked to my mother about how ridiculous it was that they didn't allow dancing if it's in the bible. She told me you're not allowed to dance as a Methodist. Confused, I asked why we are able to dance at the wedding receptions at the church and she said that our church just doesn't follow that rule.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on February 01, 2013, 07:55:59 AM
Chances of being elected to high office if you are a married man and a church goer are a great deal better than if you are a single male, womanizing, atheist after all.
I'm not sure if it's even possible right now to become a president (at least in the US) if you're not married. I don't think it's in the lawbooks that you can't, but it's a single person meant to represent the ideal American to the world and people have this idea in their heads that that means a happily married Christian person that's a good parent with prior military service. Sure some manage to get past the military ideal and less commonly on the religion, but I'm not sure we've ever had a president that was single and I doubt there'd be one in the near future either. It's a shame too. Single people have a lot more time to get stuff done! No other obligations means work becomes life.
Quote from: Caleb. on February 01, 2013, 03:29:10 AM
Beth, will you marry me? :P Lol.
Uhuh. I see how you are. :P
I can count on one hand the number of times my old man washed dishes!
Quote from: Fat Admin on February 01, 2013, 06:02:42 PM
Re: Mentioning 'but guys do this too' (drives me nuts)
Um but guys do do dishes lol. Theoretically, anyway. I can load the dishwasher and that's about it.
My dad and I washed the dishes by hand together for months after the dishwasher broke.
Quote from: EmSchuma on February 01, 2013, 07:22:18 AM
Where else would dishes be washed? * pictures herself taking a bubble bath with a bunch of plates and bowls *
I have done that. I wasn't in the bathtub with them though. My kitchen sink got clogged.
I get something like that too except the other way. People tell me women can do the same things men can (which I obviously already knew because, contrary to what these people seem to think, I'm not an idiot). That's nice, but that doesn't mean I'm a woman. Or they think since I lived like I was female and have effeminate mannerisms that it is somehow ok to insult men right in front of me including naming traits I have as insults.
There is also this thing I've noticed which I really don't like. People are quick to tell me that women are equal (which they are), but are also quick to completely ignore the fact that men can be raped and abused as well as women and women can be rapists and abusers as well as men. I don't think I'm the one who's confused. Come to think of it, these are also the people who insult men in front of me and assume I'll be ok with it.
Edit: Gorram typos.
Yeah there ARE an array of things that are actually insulting to men I suppose when you think about it carefully enough.
The entire '80s man' concept is basically offensive. They made a great deal of fuss over the idea that men can have feelings.
There are likely some fem nazis out there that are as much harm as they are anything. They get hostile over men trying to be decent to them, and then they get hostile when men are not. Basically, you need to pick one or the other eh.
Equality is a sword that cuts both ways.
Men usually get the shaft when it comes to custody battles over the kids. Too often society has the notion that a mother couldn't possibly be a better choice than a father. Sadly, I have seen more cases in my own personal experience, not through the news that is, where the father was actually the proper choice for who should be given custody of the kids, than I have seen where the mother was the right choice.
But I have seen plenty of fathers that were cliche dead beats.
But weight of numbers is hard to deal with. While I can think of plenty of good men, I can think of millions of lousy ones.
Actually women do amny things now that were considered male activities in the past. Women now are in Special Forces combat teams, etc. Is it men do that too? Or women do that too? It does not really matter. I have always washed dishes and cooked. I am the best cook I know. I have done my dishes outside of the kitchen. Once the local water supply was damaged and I had to wash my dishes in a nearby stream. Beth is correct. Being your femme self is mostly how you feel within.
There are lousy and good people of any gender. Personally, I don't think gender has anything to do with it.
Same with housework, in my opinion. It needs to be done by somebody. It doesn't matter what gender that somebody is so long as it gets done.
The point is, we're not trans because we're conforming to gender roles or trying to subvert gender roles or anything to do with gender roles. We're trans because we are who we are. People are going to have to accept that.
I'm FTM, transitioning right now. Those who know now me superficially, are stunned that I am doing this. They look at my life, my actions and what I do and tell me "Your a man". I'm a man because of what I do??? Nope. Those who know me well, say "I'm glad you finally figured that out (that you are a women). I do what I do because I have to do it (like my job - I need income), because I need to do it (like eat), or because I want to do it. I help with dishes because I want a clean house and I want to help those cleaning them to have some fun like I will once the things are clean. Every time I come to a door and someone is behind me, I ask myself "Do I hold it for them or do I let it go?" Gender - not an issue. I often just open doors for people because I like to see someone else smile.
What we do, or don't do, defines character, not gender.
Men do and have done many things that were formerly considered female domain.
Women do and have done many things that were formerly considered male domain.
But the thing is, society often rarely cares.
My fascination with history makes me ideally equipped to talk for instance on how during WW2 eventually women ended up being needed more and more for factory work. Prior to that though, it wasn't a realm they were welcomed.
Some nations think differently on the genders and their roles. In the Soviet Union of the 40s, women were given a lot more leeway than other Allied nations. I suppose having half the nation trashed by an invader can be very convincing.
But remember, what we fight, are biases, based on consensus, where logic was never required.
There's no reason I can't wear a skirt. I'm of Scottish decent and they wore kilts. And you need to be fairly brave to call someone holding a claymore a sissy. The Greek national costume is what it is, an article of clothing with a very frilly lower portion. Doesn't look very 'tough guy', but try saying that to a typical Greek. Be sure to be able to escape quickly. You can claim it is called a Kimono, but come on, it looks like a fancy dress closed in the front.
So why can't I wear a dress? Because I'm a guy?
Well I don't even agree with being male.
But I will admit, if you don't know, me, on passing me on the street, I won't be annoyed if you react with 'male' to yourself when you see me.
But why should you have a problem seeing a person that looks 'male' to you initially, if they are wearing a skirt?
Maybe you don't really know the person at all then.
Part of the reason I like skirts, is I find them attractive.
Part of the reason for wanting to wear one, is I'd like to look 'pretty', because I am female as far as I am concerned.
Part is my disability actually. I can't stand confining fabrics on my limbs, its a nervous system response.
Part, well on a hot summer day, yes, I'd like my lower regions to be nice and ventilated, who wouldn't.
But thanks to the inflexible nature of society, it's not happening as of yet.
It's a hard truth, but, we can find lots of supportive opinion here at Susan's, but, eventually we need to take our selves out into the public realm, and cope with the people out there.
Men wear men clothes, women wear women clothes (which just happen to have the current advantage to look like a lot of men clothes as well now).
Men do men things and women do women things, and most of the blur is mainly the PC element rearing it's head, which is fine in a lot of the more modern areas of society, but be careful once you leave the cosmopolitan city life. The rural world isn't so easy.