I went to see my counsellor a couple of days ago. It was the second time I'd been. The first time was with my wife and it did NOT go well. So then I went by myself and it was a load better.
Anyway, early on in the second meeting my counsellor (who's been dealing with TS's for more than 20 years and is very well-respected in the community) said, 'I knew you were transsexual from the moment you walked through the door.'
Well, I still present as male, and I don't act remotely femme, or even androgynous, so I was surprised and asked her how she could tell. She said, 'It's the eyes.' Then she laughed (kindly) and told me how she and one of her girls had been chatting about 'Trannie Eyes' just the other day and saying how there was a certain look all MTFs had. My counsellor said, 'It's like looking in the mirror and seeing two people reflected. Every so often you can see the other person, the woman who's trying to get out, popping up and saying, "I'm here!!"'
Well, it made me think. So can any of you girls spot another transsexual by the look in her eyes? Or anything else, come to that ...
Its weird cos two different people have decribed seeing that same thing in me, and I didnt know what they were on about..i guess there is some truth in that after all.
I think you can tell a lot by the eyes...and it seems it's not merely the very subtle eyelids/surrounding area, but THE EYES themselves.
You can look towards someone across the street, and they towards you--look near them, but not at them--and you won't get any sense "OMG he/she's seen me!" But look them in the eyes, and you will get a "spidey sense" that they have seen you in the eyes.
Much more personal. Some form of telepathy? I don't know. I also know that animals don't like being looked at in the eyes. (probably for the same reason)
That's an interesting theory I have always thought my most feminine feature was my eyes. But I can see what she saying about seeing two different people I see that in the mirror all the time. I can look in the mirror and see my feminine features some times and other times all I see is masculine.
It's called plucking your eyebrows. ;D
Quote from: Tesla on February 01, 2013, 08:04:54 AM
It's called plucking your eyebrows. ;D
You might have a point.
The saying that "the eyes are the window to the soul" has much truth in it. When you have a conversation with a person close to you, you want them to look you in the eye (most of the time) so that you share the meaning behind the words you speak.
Quote from: Heather on February 01, 2013, 08:09:11 AMQuote from: Tesla on February 01, 2013, 08:04:54 AM
It's called plucking your eyebrows. ;D
You might have a point.
Eyebrows should be arched, not pointed. ;) (Unless you're Vulcan)
Quote from: Tesla on February 01, 2013, 08:04:54 AM
It's called plucking your eyebrows. ;D
Same thing I thought.
My therapist said almost exactly the same thing to me at the end our first appointment... about seeing the inner woman peeking through.
Lately I've noticed other people seeing her, too. Feeling properly mirrored is the shiznit!! ..incomparable to any other feeling when becoming who you really are.
...and a Cloud Atlas quote for you...
"We define ourselves by the way others perceive us." -Somni 451
No. And I live in a large city with a large number of MTF trans (preop & postop).
If someone claims to be able to tell by just looking at your eyes, they are full of applesauce. ;)
Quote from: Carlita on February 01, 2013, 06:27:35 AM
Anyway, early on in the second meeting my counsellor (who's been dealing with TS's for more than 20 years and is very well-respected in the community) said, 'I knew you were transsexual from the moment you walked through the door.'
My therapist told me something like this in my first session...but considering she advertises herself as a gender therapist I never really thought it was all that impressive of a guess on her part. I looked at it as an attempt to build a connection with me to put me at ease in my own feelings so that I could open up about it. Or maybe I'm just overly cynical. :P
Anyway, I don't think you can tell how someone's brain is wired just by looking into their eyes. I almost always know what someone is feeling when I look them in the eye, but it's usually in general terms. I suppose if a male-presenting person had a bunch of feminine mannerisms plus an anxious-sad-detached look in their eyes I might make some assumptions, but there would probably need to be more context.
"->-bleeped-<- eyes" WTF..I would have drop the "respected" therapist a "granade" if she had said that to me...
Sounds hokey to me. Anyone going around gazing into stranger's eyes actively searching for clues that indicate a transsexual nature is almost certainly picking up on a thousand subtle cues simultaneously, at both a conscious and an unconscious level. To then try to convince herself that it's the eyes alone that tipped her off when she guesses correctly seems like a crude oversimplification at best.
But just in case, I think I might consider trading in my sapphire blue contact lenses for mirrored lenses instead. Just sayin'.
Hugs,
Miharu
It does kind of make me wonder if that's how I got outed in the military. Landed in mental health over severe depression, not saying a word about the gender thing, and he nailed it anyway. Although that could be chalked up to the fact that so many people get in, then try to get out by saying they're gay, bi, or trans. He may have just not seen any obvious queues of the latter and banked on trans.
I think it's possible to spot someone that way, but it's got to be in the right context. I'm thinking it's less of a trans eyes and more of a "i'm hiding something" eyes. They probably just combined the fact that they could tell you were hiding something with the fact that you were showing up for therapy. Or it could just be a confidence booster they use, to kind of say "yep. i knew you weren't really a <insert gender>" once you come out with it.
I do not have "trangender eyes" more like "bitchy eyes".... >:-)
Quote from: peky on February 01, 2013, 11:44:40 AM
"->-bleeped-<- eyes" WTF..I would have drop the "respected" therapist a "granade" if she had said that to me...
Actually, the phrase came from her transsexual former client, now friend ...
But on the subject of that 'other person', ever since she said that thing about the two reflections, I've been more and more conscious of the other me that's finally being let out, now that I've fully accepted my need and desire to transition. Poor old girl, she's been locked away for so long and she's screaming for her freedom. For the first time in my life, that old saying - cliché? - about 'a woman trapped in a man's body' is making sense as part of my own experience ...
Quote from: Carlita on February 01, 2013, 01:24:24 PM
Poor old girl, she's been locked away for so long and she's screaming for her freedom. For the first time in my life, that old saying - cliché? - about 'a woman trapped in a man's body' is making sense as part of my own experience ...
If you start hearing voices in your head, and she's telling you to do stuff.... trust me on this, seek immediate medical advice.
(Sorry, stupid joke. The voices in my head made me say it.)
Miharu
Quote from: Carlita on February 01, 2013, 06:27:35 AM
I went to see my counsellor a couple of days ago. It was the second time I'd been. The first time was with my wife and it did NOT go well. So then I went by myself and it was a load better.
Anyway, early on in the second meeting my counsellor (who's been dealing with TS's for more than 20 years and is very well-respected in the community) said, 'I knew you were transsexual from the moment you walked through the door.'
Well, I still present as male, and I don't act remotely femme, or even androgynous, so I was surprised and asked her how she could tell. She said, 'It's the eyes.' Then she laughed (kindly) and told me how she and one of her girls had been chatting about 'Trannie Eyes' just the other day and saying how there was a certain look all MTFs had. My counsellor said, 'It's like looking in the mirror and seeing two people reflected. Every so often you can see the other person, the woman who's trying to get out, popping up and saying, "I'm here!!"'
Well, it made me think. So can any of you girls spot another transsexual by the look in her eyes? Or anything else, come to that ...
Kia Ora Carlita,
Some say :
"The eyes are the windows to the soul/spirit !"
You might find this interesting...Research findings from Sweden...
"Patterns in the iris can give an indication of whether we are warm and trusting or neurotic and impulsive, research has found."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-436932/Scientists-discover-eyes-really-window-soul.html#axzz2Jg4kc4yi (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-436932/Scientists-discover-eyes-really-window-soul.html#axzz2Jg4kc4yi)
Metta Zenda :)
.
This is how GID will be diagnosed in the future
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJfMLjZlrSBEbAEwk6UrvAuf7c7USKxyhpCgdgnbV_4i5GMaJF5Q)
I knew you were transsexual from the moment you walked through the door.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fg-ec2.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FG%2F01%2Fdvd%2Fbladerunner%2Fbladerunner-still1-lg.jpg&hash=5f24d18ebadb8719f16364db748fb10b30bda37a)
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. To live as a woman. To live as a man. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_fWgyMr-Fcb0%2FSyEZp4hzvZI%2FAAAAAAAAG_I%2F51OUZWxrCFs%2Fs400%2F13%2BEL%2BFINAL%2BDE%2BROY.BMP&hash=f2a5e7b9ad4ef73efa35a3da1d5125a8934f0e30)
sorry ;D
That's a load of hogwash. :P
You can't tell that someone is trans by looking into his/her eyes. I think that the first clue that you are transgender is actually walking into A GENDER COUNSELOR'S OFFICE! ::)
I have noticed that a lot of MtF have "pretty eyes" way before HRT or plucking, etc. I have had total strangers compliment me on my eyes, all of my life.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1226.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee413%2FStacyBeaumont%2Feyes2_zpsaa4e4db7.jpg&hash=f48efbbc9f04558507928794e880e4b239290f6f)
Eyes do look different before and after hrt. Maybe that's what they mean? I know my pics I had certainly showed that.
Kia Ora,
::) Not to sidetrack this thread [well perhaps just a little detour]...
Why is it so hard for strangers to look deeply into each other's eyes ? What energy/ies lie behind ? Or what energies are transmitted and pick up by others ?
Perhaps it's something to 'l oo k into ...
Metta Zenda :)
I never catch an trans by eyes but I heard of the gaydar thing and for some reason I seams to have catch a few guys to be gay before they came out of the closet.
I where younger than now and I asked a older gay guy how he knew if someone was gay, he said it had alot to do with eye contact to spot another person, and then he said I should try to look at other men and see how they would look back and if a stranger could look me in the eyes for more than 10 second it ment they where attracted to me.
So I took a ride in the buss (should to school anyway) and tried it on random guys who passed by. most guys only looked shortly and then away, but there where one guys who looked back without turning his gaze away untill I looked away, and I notice when I stopped looking at him he still turned around to look at me once in a while..
theres also a saying that if a woman walks to you while keeping eye contact for more than 10 seconds and ask you about what time it is, do you really belive she want to know about the time?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thatericalper.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F01%2Fbanner_lovelace.jpg&hash=b12c4b41896f964c7c9b9afa303bdf308377e65d)
--
now this is only for attraction but in general I do belive eyes says alot.. when we are attracteed or drawn to someone/something our pupils gets bigger same as in darkness.
when we find something disgusting, fearfull, and so on our purpils get smaller, like in lightning..
maybe those facts are how you can notice if someone is trans.. like most guys who might find it disturbing to be compared with woman might get smaller purpils while mtfs would be drawn to it and get them bigger..
im just yapping.. sorry.. this just some of my thoughts..
Quote from: Zenda on February 01, 2013, 01:38:56 PM
Kia Ora Carlita,
Some say :
"The eyes are the windows to the soul/spirit !"
You might find this interesting...Research findings from Sweden...
"Patterns in the iris can give an indication of whether we are warm and trusting or neurotic and impulsive, research has found."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-436932/Scientists-discover-eyes-really-window-soul.html#axzz2Jg4kc4yi (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-436932/Scientists-discover-eyes-really-window-soul.html#axzz2Jg4kc4yi)
Metta Zenda :)
Yeah but you can only use this information if you are a computer my mindful friend
Quote from: Zenda on February 01, 2013, 03:40:57 PM
Kia Ora,
::) Not to sidetrack this thread [well perhaps just a little detour]...
Why is it so hard for strangers to look deeply into each other's eyes ? What energy/ies lie behind ? Or what energies are transmitted and pick up by others ?
Perhaps it's something to 'l oo k into ...
Metta Zenda :)
Sustained gaze is a predatory sign that indicates a challenge or intention to kill if it is executed between two males...
and violent or sexual intent, if engage by a male to a female...and sexual interest if initiated and maintained by a female upon a male...
Of course theses^^^vary with culture and times
Quote from: peky on February 01, 2013, 04:22:42 PM
Yeah but you can only use this information if you are a computer my mindful friend
Kia Ora Peky,
::) The brain is but an 'organic' computer...That's why it pays to be 'mindful' of what programmes one installs...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: peky on February 01, 2013, 04:22:42 PM
Yeah but you can only use this information if you are a computer my mindful friend
Or you dream of electric sheep.
Quote from: peky on February 01, 2013, 04:27:42 PM
Sustained gaze is a predatory sign that indicates a challenge or intention to kill if it is executed between two males...
and violent or sexual intent, if engage by a male to a female...and sexual interest if initiated and maintained by a female upon a male...
Of course theses^^^vary with culture and times
Kia Ora Peky [of the scientific facts department] ;)
Hence why evolution designed predators to have eyes at the front, and prey on either side...
However, where does this leave the 'same-sex' couples when it comes to falling in 'love' ? ;)
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on February 01, 2013, 04:50:41 PM
However, where does this leave the 'same-sex' couples when it comes to falling in 'love' ? ;)
I think it leaves them in roughly the same place. The prolonged eye contact amongst men still stands as an aggression thing most of the time. I'd imagine that two men that were interested in each other would have a different type of prolonged eye contact. So I guess the trick is determining what that difference is so you don't do it to the wrong guy. I don't know about two women though.
Quote from: Zenda on February 01, 2013, 04:37:35 PM
Kia Ora Peky,
::) The brain is but an 'organic' computer
Metta Zenda :)
Not at all my unmindful friend
10 Important Differences Between Brains and Computers
by Chris Chatham on March 27, 2007
Difference # 1: Brains are analogue; computers are digital
Difference # 2: The brain uses content-addressable memory
Difference # 3: The brain is a massively parallel machine; computers are modular and serial
Difference # 4: Processing speed is not fixed in the brain; there is no system clock
Difference # 5 – Short-term memory is not like RAM
Difference # 6: No hardware/software distinction can be made with respect to the brain or mind
Difference # 7: Synapses are far more complex than electrical logic gates
Difference #8: Unlike computers, processing and memory are performed by the same components in the brain
Difference # 9: The brain is a self-organizing system
Difference # 10: Brains have bodies
http://scienceblogs.com/developingintelligence/2007/03/27/why-the-brain-is-not-like-a-co/ (http://scienceblogs.com/developingintelligence/2007/03/27/why-the-brain-is-not-like-a-co/)
Quote from: Emily52736 on February 01, 2013, 04:53:57 PM
I think it leaves them in roughly the same place. The prolonged eye contact amongst men still stands as an aggression thing most of the time. I'd imagine that two men that were interested in each other would have a different type of prolonged eye contact. So I guess the trick is determining what that difference is so you don't do it to the wrong guy. I don't know about two women though.
Kia Ora Emily,
::) So I guess it's a hit :icon_boxing: and miss :icon_bunch: thing with homosexual men ;)
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: peky on February 01, 2013, 04:55:06 PM
Not at all my unmindful friend
10 Important Differences Between Brains and Computers
by Chris Chatham on March 27, 2007
Difference # 1: Brains are analogue; computers are digital
Difference # 2: The brain uses content-addressable memory
Difference # 3: The brain is a massively parallel machine; computers are modular and serial
Difference # 4: Processing speed is not fixed in the brain; there is no system clock
Difference # 5 – Short-term memory is not like RAM
Difference # 6: No hardware/software distinction can be made with respect to the brain or mind
Difference # 7: Synapses are far more complex than electrical logic gates
Difference #8: Unlike computers, processing and memory are performed by the same components in the brain
Difference # 9: The brain is a self-organizing system
Difference # 10: Brains have bodies
http://scienceblogs.com/developingintelligence/2007/03/27/why-the-brain-is-not-like-a-co/ (http://scienceblogs.com/developingintelligence/2007/03/27/why-the-brain-is-not-like-a-co/)
Kia Ora Peky,
::) Now lets see... "Input-Process-Output-Storage" does this ring a bell ? ;)
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on February 01, 2013, 05:01:22 PM
Kia Ora Peky,
::) Now lets see... "Input-Process-Output-Storage" does this ring a bell ? ;)
Metta Zenda :)
A doorknob......it will be ignore in the future.....no more response
Quote from: peky on February 01, 2013, 05:15:11 PM
A doorknob......it will be ignore in the future.....no more response
Kia Ora Peky,
::) Input=Brain & computer 'receive'... Process=Brain & CPU process information received...Output=Brain & CPU respond to information received...Storage= Speaks for itself... ;)
Brain = Glorified Organic computer...
BTW the programmer is 'Mind' ... ;)
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
* Sorry OP, it looks like we've really gone off track*
So to get things back on track...
"Can you spot a transsexual just by looking at her eyes?"
I very much doubt it...
If transsexualism is as some say a 'brain' thing, the therapist would have to look 'through'
the eyes to the male/female brain... Or she would need xray vision or a pair of xray vision glasses...
But in saying this...How many times have we looked into a person's eyes and could tell if they were 'sad', it's possible your therapist could see the sadness in your eyes and put two and two together...
The light of sadness often shines through the cracks in the closet door...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Tesla on February 01, 2013, 08:04:54 AM
It's called plucking your eyebrows. ;D
Overplucking MTF eyebrows tend to make a former men's even more masculine looking....because overplucked eyebrows ruthlessly emphisize already present masculine facial features.
Same thing goes for thin pencilled in and tattood eyebrows too.
And yes, so you actually can spot a MTF just by looking just
above her eyes ;-)
Dunno about "->-bleeped-<- eyes" but Bettie Davis eyes are easy to spot...
Lol i've never heard of the pre-transition eye thing before. I have heard from a few people that you can spot a post-transition transsexual by their body frame.
Ok, but weird thing on this. I have known two other MTFs before they came out and each time I met them and our eyes locked the first time, well all I could say was it felt like I was looking at an odd reflection of myself. Then a few years latter one came out..and instantly the memory snapped back, same thing with the second.. Still it's burned into my mind. Now if there's an actual "tell" or not with pre transition people I don't know, however in those two cases it was more like the eyes stood out Vs blending into the body as a whole. Odd I know, but that's my own personal random experience.
Like most human effects and oddities...it probably works for some, but not for others. 8)
To the OP....I wonder...did the ther*pist say you had trans-eyes before, or after, you outed yourself?
And the talk about "predatory natures" etc...interesting. So we are still affected by instinct? And, if so (another thread, another forum perhaps) what would be the graph showing instinctual influences -v- "higher brain" influences?
Quote from: Beth Andrea on February 02, 2013, 06:53:18 PM
So we are still affected by instinct? And, if so (another thread, another forum perhaps) what would be the graph showing instinctual influences -v- "higher brain" influences?
I think we are VERY much guided by instincts that is ingrained into millions of years evolution. From the foods we like to what we find attractive in others is all preprogrammed in out DNA and being smart enough to know that doesn't really change that programming.
I have a friend that when I first told her that I was trans she said that she could tell when she first saw me 8 years ago that she knew by looking in my eyes. She does have a mtf friend that she met in high school so mybe she knew what to look for. At the time she first saw I was very much in male mode at the time.
It makes total sense to me, men and women in general have different eyes, there's a certain quality that I see, maybe the soul, maybe the overall feeling when looking into them,
Uuuuuuuh,
I used to think that had some validity, until one day, some gorgeous neighbor started saying hi and making small conversations and I thought, "Gee she is very interested", until I asked her out and she said, "Sorry not interest charlie, lol". That was before I met my current girlfriend, who I met very differently, the things that make you go "Hmmmmmmm". My point, no you cannot tell if somebody is a ->-bleeped-<- just by their looks or the way somebody looks. To further explain, you can easily MISINTERPRET somebody's look just based on the variability of culture, mental, physical state, environment among other stuff my fried(ie.too much reading)brain forgets.
Too simplify myself, dumb down, "What you see is NOT what always you get", "Don't judge a book by its cover", "Still waters run deep", yadda, yadda, yadda.
Lucia, but hey, some of you do have pretty eyes, :-* :-* :angel:
Quote from: Beth Andrea on February 02, 2013, 06:53:18 PM
Like most human effects and oddities...it probably works for some, but not for others. 8)
To the OP....I wonder...did the ther*pist say you had trans-eyes before, or after, you outed yourself?
And the talk about "predatory natures" etc...interesting. So we are still affected by instinct? And, if so (another thread, another forum perhaps) what would be the graph showing instinctual influences -v- "higher brain" influences?
Well, I'd outed myself just by going to see her! But she's spent a long time helping MTFs, so I'm inclined to believe that she wasn't being smart after the event.
Quote from: Carlita on February 06, 2013, 10:49:57 AM
Well, I'd outed myself just by going to see her!
Exactly why I don't believe that she has eye-dar. :P
I have geek-dar Diana, and i can totally tell your just like me when it comes to that ;)
You know, I have read something, that your eyes dilate subconsciously and others on direct eye contact can spot it, thereby noticing you are reacting to a stimuli, in that case with that therapist, 1. She is a gender therapist. 2 Obviously your there because you have gender issues. 3. She asked you and I would gather you confirmed it, but she knew subconsciously you reacted to her gaze, but NOT for the confirmed reason, for all you know you were doing reconing for somebody else and you may have by all apparent reasons, been attracted to her, or she reminded you of somebody else favorable or unfavorable. Another thing, is that looking at other people like somebody said before can be considered predatory behavior, even in females, so your watching somebody may have been a sign of insecurity, again a subconscious thing.
Lucia,
My 2 cents
I don't know about spotting or the eyes giving you away, but when I had told my youngest brother and his wife, He asked me, "How do you know you are a girl?" My sister in law just sat back and smiled before she told him to stop being a doctor and just think about it. "It's in the eyes," she said. "your and other men's eyes wander when you are talking to someone or you focus intently."
She went on to explain that I will engage someone when talking. She pointed out that I communicate differently form other men."
C.
I walked into a trans healthcare facility recently. If someone there told me that he/she somehow knew that I was trans, I would just point to the sign and say, "I wonder how..." :laugh:
This just seems silly to me, I strongly doubt you can tell what biological sex someone is based on their eyes, feels sort of like guessing your chromosomes based on your hair or something. I've seen girls who transitioned and I couldn't tell at all, and at the same time I've seen some cis girls who I thought were and apparently they weren't.
This article supports the idea that there may be something to the OP.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201210/whats-in-face (http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201210/whats-in-face)
No it doesn't. It states you can detect Mormons because their healthy skin reflects their healthy lifestyle.
Unless there is an equivalent physical cue for trans people. Which there aint.
I don't know about pre-hrt, but estrogen changes the shape of the eyeballs to a certain extent. Somehow post-hrt trans women always seem to have brighter looking eyes.
No. It would be scary if you could.
I think she's just tried to make the person comfortable. That's important. At the same time, it validates how transsexuals feel: ya know, we were born this way, or at the very least, never had a choice. I know for one I have always felt this way and always wanted to be a woman, way and well before any sexual component to it arose and way before I knew anything about the politics of gender. She seems nice. Her comment about "->-bleeped-<- eyes" was a little cheesy and maybe even offensive. Obviously, she wasn't trying to offend, so...
Quote from: Seras on February 20, 2013, 10:24:20 AM
No it doesn't. It states you can detect Mormons because their healthy skin reflects their healthy lifestyle.
Unless there is an equivalent physical cue for trans people. Which there aint.
I said, "This article
supports (
not confirms)the
idea that there
may be something to the OP." I'd say that there are a disproportionate number of MtFs that have feminine characteristics before taking the first bit of HRT.
"Sex hormones are one clear link between appearance and personality. Testosterone and estrogen influence facial development as well as behavior. High testosterone shows itself in strong jawbones, darker coloring, and hollower cheekbones. High estrogen reveals itself in smooth skin, a small chin, sparse facial hair, arched eyebrows, and plump lips."
"At the University of St. Andrews, volunteers of both genders could tell, with above-chance accuracy, whether people were promiscuous (open to one-night stands and sex without love) just by looking at photos of their faces. Among women, high-estrogen feminine faces were accurately rated as the most promiscuous—and the most beautiful. Among men, the Lothario face (a composite of the most promiscuous males) had high-testosterone features: slightly smaller eyes, larger noses, and broader cheekbones. Women accurately judged this face as belonging to a playboy and downgraded it in favor of men who looked—and actually were—more committed and monogamous."
I don't believe there is a link between levels of testosterone and estrogen pre-HRT in persons who internally gender themselves opposite to their birth sex. The majority of pre-HRT, pre-transition and post-puberty transsexuals I've met are/were reasonably masculine, and I'd be pretty hard pressed to detect one (unless they plucked their eyebrows....). Just look at the before and after photos section here. I neither believe in any sort of mysterious, metaphysical ESP connection between TS persons either.
I'd go with Joanna Dark's comment:
Quote
I think she's just tried to make the person comfortable.
No, because some will be totally un - detectable. It's the one's that you can read that you are talking about. You can usually spot them by other reasons, i.e their butt too small, upper body too big, facial shape too large etc.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on February 24, 2013, 05:37:36 AM
No, because some will be totally un - detectable. It's the one's that you can read that you are talking about. You can usually spot them by other reasons, i.e their butt too small, upper body too big, facial shape too large etc.
In reference to
post-transition and
post-HRT transgender persons, I agree. But I think the original poster was referring to those who haven't even started HRT and transition. The therapist was purporting to have something like a transdar. Presumably, such transdar would be able to detect ->-bleeped-<- in those who are not even aware of it themselves.
@Tesla: I don't think you can detect by the eyes as that's just silly. But for myself, I am not a masculine person whatsoever and anybody who knows me would agree. I don't like men either FYI. More than that, I've had at least six instances I can remember where people have given me their advice on sex changes from telling me how how you can't get rid of the adam's apple (i don't really have a large one so maybe they weren't talking about me) to how after getting SRS a lot of TSs kill themselves or to how I'll make a really ugly woman. I have gotten that one several times. This isn't wishful thinking on my part. Though maybe I'm just a weirdo and I don't belong here. I'm starting to have doubts on whether I should even transition or not which i guess is entirely normal. No doubts on whether i want to. Given the chance I'd have SRS tomorrow. I'm just afraid the hormones won't work and will leave me impotent and looking like a freak whom everyone talks about and laughs at. I agree though it does seem that many pre-HRT ladies didn't lead a very femme life. Sorry for the tangent.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on February 24, 2013, 01:22:19 PM
@Tesla: I don't think you can detect by the eyes as that's just silly. But for myself, I am not a masculine person whatsoever and anybody who knows me would agree. I don't like men either FYI. More than that, I've had at least six instances I can remember where people have given me their advice on sex changes from telling me how how you can't get rid of the adam's apple (i don't really have a large one so maybe they weren't talking about me) to how after getting SRS a lot of TSs kill themselves or to how I'll make a really ugly woman. I have gotten that one several times. This isn't wishful thinking on my part. Though maybe I'm just a weirdo and I don't belong here. I'm starting to have doubts on whether I should even transition or not which i guess is entirely normal. No doubts on whether i want to. Given the chance I'd have SRS tomorrow. I'm just afraid the hormones won't work and will leave me impotent and looking like a freak whom everyone talks about and laughs at. I agree though it does seem that many pre-HRT ladies didn't lead a very femme life. Sorry for the tangent.
Well first off, if you were to get SRS, you would never be able to "get it up" again, so impotence as such should not be a concern. Sexual arousal itself is more of a mental thing anyway, so unless you get a brainectomy you should be ok in that department.
Secondly, if people do "talk about and laughs at" someone they perceive to be "a freak", then those people have the problem, and we should not internalize *their* problems as our own.
Btw, if that's you in your avatar, you are very beautiful. I can see you're trans by your eyes (LOL).
I know my obsession with sexual function may seem strange but it is the one thing that has ever bought me the teeniest bit of fleeting satisfaction. Then on the other hand, SRS is the end goal since that would be satisfaction because then I would feel, for lack of a better word, complete, like I wasn't a freak. Like many, I've always felt this way but I can't make it go away for more than a couple days or a month. It's always there stalking me. But yeah, that is me in the avatar, and THANKS for the compliment it makes me feel better like maybe I will be able to do it, and pass, and all that. I'm not strong enough to battle not passing all the time. Plus, for me, the goal is to also be accepted as a female by other females in a social role and maybe get a good job. I'm a magazine editor so being a fashion editor would be like a total dream come true. It's not so much about sex. That and I will prob be lesbian if I can go all the way. Though, don't quote me on that.
Sure if someone isn't passing, then you can tell, but if someone passes then you can't tell me that you can determine it because that would contradict the very meaning of passing. So your argument would be no matter what we cannot pass fully and that someone can tell by looking at our eyes for instance which I don't believe.
Unless there's an obvious difference between male and female eyes, I still don't think eyes can out you. ::)
Quote from: EmmaS on February 24, 2013, 07:52:39 PM
Sure if someone isn't passing, then you can tell, but if someone passes then you can't tell me that you can determine it because that would contradict the very meaning of passing. So your argument would be no matter what we cannot pass fully and that someone can tell by looking at our eyes for instance which I don't believe.
The beauty of this is that there's no way to verify it "before the fact", without upsetting everyone! Cis-women will get mad if one thinks they're trans, trans-women will get made because they thought they passed...
I think that the ther*pist either just wanted to connect with the person, or perhaps there was some subtle clue given out by the client...I remember reading a story once about the "tea-room trade" among homosexuals, they claim they know who's there for a ->-bleeped-<- and who is not, it's all about the eyes, where they look and how they glance at the other person...I'd think that a person who is uncomfortable with their body would give some sort of visual cues to an observant person.
Okay I can somewhat believe that, since eye shape is a little bit dependent on masculinity and femininity, but if someone takes hormones and they have a positive effect, then their eye shape does change slightly and that helps with passing along with fat. So I would say you can tell the difference between a man and a woman based on their eyes but I don't think you can tell the difference between a passable trans woman and another woman based on their eyes.
Quote from: Tesla on February 24, 2013, 06:25:38 AM
In reference to post-transition and post-HRT transgender persons, I agree. But I think the original poster was referring to those who haven't even started HRT and transition. The therapist was purporting to have something like a transdar. Presumably, such transdar would be able to detect ->-bleeped-<- in those who are not even aware of it themselves.
No, I don't buy it sorry.
Quote from: EmmaS on February 24, 2013, 08:04:21 PM
Okay I can somewhat believe that, since eye shape is a little bit dependent on masculinity and femininity, but if someone takes hormones and they have a positive effect, then their eye shape does change slightly and that helps with passing along with fat. So I would say you can tell the difference between a man and a woman based on their eyes but I don't think you can tell the difference between a passable trans woman and another woman based on their eyes.
Is a "passable trans woman" moderately passable, occasionally passable or even 100% passable? On first glance they may pass, but on second glance something about their eyes draws attention. Perhaps, it's the prominent orbital rims above their eyes or something more subtle. But it's never just one feature that's the give-away, unless you consider genitals one feature! A woman may have deep set eyes, but the rest of the picture may be unquestionably female. It's the sum of the parts. Isolating one feature for examination may fail many cis-women.
Interesting. I consider myself androgynous (percieved as male) but don't give a femme vibe off to most people (I don't think). But I've always had these very soft, pretty, feminine eyes.
I'm not necessarily saying I believe the theory, but we read people's emotions from their faces, why couldn't we read mental states more generally? I think a whole lot of mental processes have a certain vibe that almost manifests physically.
I wouldn't reccomend "diagnosing" anyone based on that, though.
Quote from: Saffron on February 01, 2013, 03:10:58 PM
This is how GID will be diagnosed in the future
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJfMLjZlrSBEbAEwk6UrvAuf7c7USKxyhpCgdgnbV_4i5GMaJF5Q)
I knew you were transsexual from the moment you walked through the door.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fg-ec2.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FG%2F01%2Fdvd%2Fbladerunner%2Fbladerunner-still1-lg.jpg&hash=5f24d18ebadb8719f16364db748fb10b30bda37a)
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. To live as a woman. To live as a man. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_fWgyMr-Fcb0%2FSyEZp4hzvZI%2FAAAAAAAAG_I%2F51OUZWxrCFs%2Fs400%2F13%2BEL%2BFINAL%2BDE%2BROY.BMP&hash=f2a5e7b9ad4ef73efa35a3da1d5125a8934f0e30)
sorry ;D
Saffron, the first time I saw 'Blade Runner' near the end on the roof when Roy (Rutger Hauer) said to Deckard, "All those moments lost in time, like tears in rain" I cried. Rutger Hauer ad libbed the line too. Every time it's on I'll still make time or drop everything to see it. But your word and idea substitution is perfect. I've felt, done and seen things, as most of us have, that 'normal' people wouldn't believe or understand. I think it's one of the greatest scenes in movie history, and I'll watch anything Ridley Scott has directed.
As far as the question goes, I've seen photos of myself in my teens through thirties where I either looked androgynous or femme, mostly because of my body language. I did two terms in prison in the 90's and during the second one I broke my hand pretty badly playing basketball. Playing ball was the only thing keeping me halfway sane because of me being TS and hiding it, the often severe racial problems on the yard, and the threats from the white supremacists telling me they were going to kill me if I kept playing basketball with the blacks. Anyway, the day after it happened I went to to a friend, told him I had a sliver and borrowed his tweezers. Then I went into the bathroom and plucked my eyebrows, then shaved my legs. There were a few other transsexuals there and both of them told me after I semi transitioned that they knew I was TS the minute they saw me. I had this photo taken of me a month after my 41st birthday and about a month before I transitioned in prison. It was my first extended time living without a costume of maleness and I loved it. I ended up with a guy in there who was getting out a month after me and he wanted me to completely transition and live with him, but he was a drug dealer who wasn't about to change and I wasn't about to do anything illegal to go back again, so I grew my eyebrows back and stopped shaving about two months before my release. That was 1996 and I wanted so badly to continue and go all the way, but I had no job, no money and no real home to parole to, so I didn't transition till 2011. Fifteen agonizing, wasted years. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1356.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq739%2FTOmirandaTS%2FRANDI41onemonthbefore1sttransition_zps91acc53a.jpg&hash=02df2a88b30a3a48d2e1b7126ae0e74e69e8481d) I don't think I looked transsexed in this photo, but at least two other transsexuals said they knew immediately.
No, some are perfect and have female eyes.
A freind of mine said that she saw my "pain screaming from my eyes" (the pain of not having the body I was supposed to have). Later she said that it was more overall the face - the expression I guess. My gender therapist also went for intuitive clues. I dont think it is the eyes alone, it is the whole face plus it will probably not work like you look at 1000 males and spot the 1001st person looking male as a MtF. But in a more narrow framework, I guess one can pick up clues...
One of my close freinds saw me as Zoe for the first time a couple of weekends ago, and said something that is true.
She said that she always felt that there was something missing with me, and that she could see that there was something vacant in me. She then said that i looked a lot more happier as a girl, and she could see that spark in my eyes for the first time!
Also my therapist often says that from the first time she saw me, i look alot happier and she's often saying she can see that im my eyes!!
So yes i think that the eyes do give away alot. Perhaps you wont be able to tell that someone is transexual just by looking at there eyes, but i think people couild see that there was something troubling me and that i have been unhappy, and now ive come out and am dealing with this the pain and unhappyness is gradually leaving and i just look happier!! :)
Xx
Quote from: anjaq on November 06, 2013, 04:56:03 AM
A freind of mine said that she saw my "pain screaming from my eyes" (the pain of not having the body I was supposed to have). Later she said that it was more overall the face - the expression I guess. My gender therapist also went for intuitive clues. I dont think it is the eyes alone, it is the whole face plus it will probably not work like you look at 1000 males and spot the 1001st person looking male as a MtF. But in a more narrow framework, I guess one can pick up clues...
I see what your getting at. You would see and feel their pain which might manifest itself in facial expression, tears and severe depression.
Quote from: Zoe Louise Taylor on November 06, 2013, 05:16:18 AM
One of my close freinds saw me as Zoe for the first time a couple of weekends ago, and said something that is true. She said that she always felt that there was something missing with me, and that she could see that there was something vacant in me. She then said that i looked a lot more happier as a girl, and she could see that spark in my eyes for the first time!
That's true. As a guy (I use that term loosely as I was never like a guy and rarely had short hair) you will never be part of that crowd, that essence of being male won't ever be there. For me I never felt part of that and guys could see that I wasn't like them, but girls wanted to be my friend and confide in me.
I am sure it is a very individual thing but there does seem to be something that gives away gender at a glance, even when removed from context, but I have no idea what that might be.
In my 64 years I have seen it happen far too consistently for it to be random or "chance". As a child I was, at first glance, perceived as female and yet when an adult became aware of my legal sex, it just resulted in confusion (for them) and the feeling that something wasn't right. At 15 I was diagnosed by Dr. Benjamin in about 15 minutes; I later came to know one other who was diagnosed around the same time (1966) and we could not figure out how he could be so certain so quickly! In my later teens I tried to go androgynous at college but the vast majority of my fellow students believed I was a girl masquerading as a guy to attend technical school (think Yentl YEARS before the movie was written). In the years following transition/SRS there were a number of occasions when I SHOULD have been mis-gendered (due to context, appearance, etc.) and sometimes was mis-gendered until the person saw my face and then rapidly corrected themselves. In every case it seemed to be the eyes that gave it away.
Quote from: Northern Jane on November 06, 2013, 05:24:08 AM
I am sure it is a very individual thing but there does seem to be something that gives away gender at a glance, even when removed from context, but I have no idea what that might be.
In my 64 years I have seen it happen far too consistently for it to be random or "chance". As a child I was, at first glance, perceived as female and yet when an adult became aware of my legal sex, it just resulted in confusion (for them) and the feeling that something wasn't right. At 15 I was diagnosed by Dr. Benjamin in about 15 minutes; I later came to know one other who was diagnosed around the same time (1966) and we could not figure out how he could be so certain so quickly! In my later teens I tried to go androgynous at college but the vast majority of my fellow students believed I was a girl masquerading as a guy to attend technical school (think Yentl YEARS before the movie was written). In the years following transition/SRS there were a number of occasions when I SHOULD have been mis-gendered (due to context, appearance, etc.) and sometimes was mis-gendered until the person saw my face and then rapidly corrected themselves. In every case it seemed to be the eyes that gave it away.
Your story is a bit like mine only your original diagnosis was two decades earlier. I too was often perceived as a girl masquerading as a guy in my teens and early 20's.
But are you are saying your eyes didn't look female? or the other way round?
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on November 06, 2013, 05:23:20 AM
That's true. As a guy (I use that term loosely as I was never like a guy and rarely had short hair) you will never be part of that crowd, that essence of being male won't ever be there. For me I never felt part of that and guys could see that I wasn't like them, but girls wanted to be my friend and confide in me.
Totally agree with this! i did quite a masculine course at university, and there were only boys in the course. I never felt i fitted in and would never be invited on nights out etc, But i lived in a house with all girls, and it just seemed as though girls understood me better than boys, and that i found it a lot easier to fit in with them! I was still massively in denial at this point, and tried so hard to get on with the boys on my course, and really tried to be "one of the lads"! I just wish that i hadn't have denied my trans feelings for so long, things would be so much easier now if i'd have just accepted who i am!! :/
Xx
Quote from: Zoe Louise Taylor on November 06, 2013, 05:16:18 AM
One of my close freinds saw me as Zoe for the first time a couple of weekends ago, and said something that is true.
She said that she always felt that there was something missing with me, and that she could see that there was something vacant in me. She then said that i looked a lot more happier as a girl, and she could see that spark in my eyes for the first time!
Also my therapist often says that from the first time she saw me, i look alot happier and she's often saying she can see that im my eyes!!
So yes i think that the eyes do give away alot. Perhaps you wont be able to tell that someone is transexual just by looking at there eyes, but i think people couild see that there was something troubling me and that i have been unhappy, and now ive come out and am dealing with this the pain and unhappyness is gradually leaving and i just look happier!! :)
Xx
Speaking as the author of the original post, I think you've pretty much expressed what my therapist, who has a LOT of experience looking after MTF ladies was talking about. I think it's the idea that there's a second, female self that we're hiding as long as we're living our male lives ... and sometimes we can't help but let that female self show herself, even if it's subconscious.
I know from my own experience that when I look back at my life - a lot of which has been truly amazing, in terms of the places I've been and the people I've met - one of my biggest regrets is that through all these incredible experiences I've never felt I was truly present in the moment. At some level it feels like it all happened to someone else, because the person I really am had to be hidden ... like I was playing a part all the time, not being true to myself.
And I think that's what my therapist saw straight away ... and I believe her when she talks about seeing something in a transsexual's eyes. After all, the eyes are a window to the soul ... and our souls have a very particular burden to carryr ...
Wow... this thread has gone all over.
To the OP: The brain is really, really good at figuring out all sorts of things by visual cues with regards to the face. We're constantly evaluating everyone around us through a set of learned behaviors that tell us things about the person whose face we're looking at. There are large areas of the brain both in the active cerebral cortex and the passive so-called 'reptilian brain' that are specifically tuned to tell things about the person in question. Now, all those impulses can be filtered through the conscious mind and have perspective bias buuuuut I'd wager that, properly trained, someone can tell various things about certain types of people.
To that, we all learn certain things about how to express ourselves through observation. Mannerisms, expressions, movement speeds, etc. are all learned through a process of appropriation as a child. The parent that we identify with gender (or maybe sex) wise is the one that we copy most thoroughly so, given that trans chicks are female and have some sort of auto-identification that makes that tick (though we don't become aware of it until about three or so, developmentally), I'd say that it's very possible to postulate a theory whereby ways in which we express ourselves using said learned behavior could be an indicator of gender (or as I'm going to start calling it: brain sex).
Add to that the fact that the eyes are the most visible sign of distress and turmoil and we've got a pretty easy little formula: feminine facial expressions + obvious signs of emotional distress = voila!
It doesn't always have to be 'woo' stuff, ya'll.
FWIW, my partner was pretty easily able to tell that I was trans by observing a lot of the same things. She wouldn't even call me 'handsome' pre transition, always opting to stay silent on the matter. When I asked her about it not too long before I popped, she told me that she couldn't see me as anything but 'beautiful' because there was something about my eyes that just didn't seem to be anything but.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on November 06, 2013, 05:31:24 AMBut are you are saying your eyes didn't look female? or the other way round?
They DID look female, or something did!
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on November 06, 2013, 08:42:14 AMTo that, we all learn certain things about how to express ourselves through observation. Mannerisms, expressions, movement speeds, etc. are all learned through a process of appropriation as a child.
That is the part that has puzzled me because, in my case, I didn't have to move, speak, or anything else but one look at me and I was almost universally gendered as female, even when the situation should have resulted in the opposite conclusion. Since transition (nearly 40 years ago) I have often been referred to as anything from "cute" to "beautiful" by those who know nothing of my past so there is something about my face, even now in my 60s, that was and still is very feminine but I don't know what it is. (But I am grateful LOL!)
Quote from: Carlita on February 01, 2013, 06:27:35 AM
I went to see my counsellor a couple of days ago. It was the second time I'd been. The first time was with my wife and it did NOT go well. So then I went by myself and it was a load better.
Anyway, early on in the second meeting my counsellor (who's been dealing with TS's for more than 20 years and is very well-respected in the community) said, 'I knew you were transsexual from the moment you walked through the door.'
Well, I still present as male, and I don't act remotely femme, or even androgynous, so I was surprised and asked her how she could tell. She said, 'It's the eyes.' Then she laughed (kindly) and told me how she and one of her girls had been chatting about 'Trannie Eyes' just the other day and saying how there was a certain look all MTFs had. My counsellor said, 'It's like looking in the mirror and seeing two people reflected. Every so often you can see the other person, the woman who's trying to get out, popping up and saying, "I'm here!!"'
Well, it made me think. So can any of you girls spot another transsexual by the look in her eyes? Or anything else, come to that ...
I think it's more of the sadness that is unhideable sometimes, if you look at me for a second you could very easily see just how depressed and alone i am.
Quote from: Xhianil on November 06, 2013, 11:15:17 AM
I think it's more of the sadness that is unhideable sometimes, if you look at me for a second you could very easily see just how depressed and alone i am.
I'm afraid to say I think you might be right about that sadness ...
And, yes, Victoria, what you say makes a lot of sense. What is described as 'intuition' is really just a process - both conscious and unconscious - of detailed observation. It's often described as 'feminine intuition' because women tend to be (by and large, and with due caution towards any gender-based generalisation) more detailed observers of other people and their emotions than men are. And I think women tend to display their emotions more openly and freely than men do. So I guess it's not surprising if a woman can spot the female element in what appears to be a man ...
Quote from: Carlita on November 06, 2013, 11:43:56 AM
I'm afraid to say I think you might be right about that sadness ...
How can you not be sad in the wrong body?
Quote from: Carlita on November 06, 2013, 11:49:02 AM
Quite.
Good thing not many seem to see it unless they have seen it before and care about someone, probably why I'm not noticed for it.
My therapist said it wasn't just my eyes but my entire body. The way i walked, the way i sat, the way i talked, everything to her screamed that i am transgender and have been beaten down from the years of denial, and the real me screaming to come out.
Prior to my self acceptance and beginning transition I frequently felt that my eyes were the only part of my image that was really me. It is wonderful to now look in the mirror and see more of the girl that shadowed me for so long.
And what, pray tell, do we see in the eyes of a transsexual man????
Quote from: Tessa James on November 06, 2013, 04:16:44 PM
And what, pray tell, do we see in the eyes of a transsexual man????
Why your dreams come true of course.
Oh purrrrrrrrrfect
i hope i exude "betty davis" eyes...