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Hi muuu sorry I don't recall did you start HRT yet? That really helped me with my feelings.
You will never be fully female no matter how many operations you have. It's just never going to happen. You a a transgendered person and by definition that makes you different. Even if you could be totally perfect, it still won't change that simple fact. You have to understand that to truly love yourself you have to accept yourself as you are and whatever way that goes. I went to the operating room 3 times in my transition spaced out over 5 years. It doesn't all happen at once, it just takes time and there is nothing you can do it to make it any faster. You will also end up how you end up. If you look in the mirror and don't think you will end up where you want to be, then stop and go back to living as a guy, because you will never be happy. Is that what you wanted to hear? Or did you want me to say, everything is going to be okay? I just don't know. If you're not happy about transitioning then maybe transitioning is not for you? Transitioning to a new gender role is supped to make one happier and feel better about life not worse. It's a sure sign that it's the wrong road to take. That's just my 2 cents.
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If you feel in your heart and your soul that you are a woman, go for it. Transition, even though you might not ever flawlessly pass. Don't give veto power to the perceptions of total strangers. So you might get read as trans sometimes after you transition. I say, "So what?" At some point, you have to impose your reality on the world, rather than passively allowing the opposite to overwhelm you.
Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 08, 2013, 02:00:46 PM
Well I am kinda similar and kinda different... for one I agree, wouldn't wanna transition if I didn't think I could end up 100% passable in pretty much any situation, but then my motivation for transitioning is actually more because I have a feminine personality so I want to behave and dress femininely and not have to get a bunch of crap in life because of that... people say you could just do that as a guy, but it's totally different, doing that as a guy takes as much of a thick skin as being out as openly trans. And it's a different kind of life experience either way.
I mean I want to be seen as feminine, but I don't have any strong fixation on the category of female it's just who I am and it's how I can be myself best.
Oh that is really interesting. I have always wondered if anybody was like that because I'm exactly the opposite. I transitioned because I feel female. My discomfort has always been with my sex and my body, not my gender. I do think I'm mostly a feminine person, but that would have never motivated transition for me.
Also, gender feels like mostly a social construct to me, and I guess I just don't exactly understand how anybody could feel like it was their core identity. It is really interesting to me that you do, even if I don't get it. Actually, it's probably interesting to me precisely because I don't get it.
When I started my transition, it was mainly because I just could not cope with acting male any more. I just couldn't keep up the charade, always feeling like I was an actor. I never had any particular goals in mind and just went with the flow and hoped things would turn out okay. Seems strange thinking back on it now, but it all worked out well.
Initially I never really thought I'd pass, and I don't think I did. I was sure I had big shoulders and a very masculine face. I never really passed that well the few times out the door pre transition. But over time things changed and I feminized nicely. Mannerisms came easily. Confidence came and everything fell into place. Then as time went by I passed. About 2 years after starting HRT I was in straight nightclubs being hit on by guys and was one of the girls and employed in a mostly female workplace.
The point is you can't always judge how things will work out at the beginning. It's an evolution of sorts and takes time, (for most of us anyway). If I thought solely about passing at the start of my journey I would never have started and would've stewed in my misery.
Muuu you said you don't want to delude yourself but I think you already have and that is your problem.
Quote from: MaidofOrleans on February 08, 2013, 04:41:38 PM
Muuu you said you don't want to delude yourself but I think you already have and that is your problem.
I promised myself I wasn't going to respond to another of Muuu's threads..
Muuu, you seem to have this ideal of what a woman looks like - that's a delusion.. There is no such thing.
And here's the thing, I'm far from that ideal, and yet I pass.. How do I know? I can out myself in the middle of a conversation and find myself surrounded by incredulous looks. Now, that's a bonus, but it's not why I transitioned.. I transitioned because I could no longer live the lie..
Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on February 08, 2013, 05:11:09 PM
I promised myself I wasn't going to respond to another of Muuu's threads..
Muuu, you seem to have this ideal of what a woman looks like - that's a delusion.. There is no such thing.
I think muuu is just young I was kind of the same way once. I thought that it was all about how I looked and I would never pass! Now that I'm older I can see the flaw in that way of thinking.
It sounds like perhaps you would benefit from speaking with an expert in the trans field, ie. a good therapist and bringing these very issues up.
One thing I will say is, 5 months on HRT is sooooooo very much early days, seriously.
Give things time, take it a bit easier on yourself, transitioning is a massive thing to go through both mentally and physically.
Things really started to change for me in a very noticeable quite a bit after 5 months, its different for everyone.
That and I seriously thought for so many reasons I would never ever pass or even look remotely like a woman.
Like I said things take time and its different for everyone.
I guess for me, it wasn't a choice in the end, either I transitioned or I would not be here, it was that simple.
I was also totally prepared to never pass and be a rather obvious trans person, better that than being a man though.
If you want to see how much transition changed me just take a look at the "Before and after" thread, its only been 1 year and 2 months for me.
Jay-Bird
Quote from: Jen on February 08, 2013, 03:53:32 PM
Oh that is really interesting. I have always wondered if anybody was like that because I'm exactly the opposite. I transitioned because I feel female. My discomfort has always been with my sex and my body, not my gender. I do think I'm mostly a feminine person, but that would have never motivated transition for me.
Also, gender feels like mostly a social construct to me, and I guess I just don't exactly understand how anybody could feel like it was their core identity. It is really interesting to me that you do, even if I don't get it. Actually, it's probably interesting to me precisely because I don't get it.
ahh yes, the wonderful feeling when i read something that reflects my experience.
i can't fathom transitioning due to being feminine/masculine/whatever. i don't identify as a girl, woman, female, or anything, and i don't particularly feel like i AM any of those, nor do i feel some sort of internal push to adopt those labels. i was always uncomfortable with my body first and foremost, and i felt like the terms of address mostly came along for the ride.
i still don't understand gender, and i don't think i ever will. but, like jen, i think it's fascinating that there are a bunch of people out there who feel so strongly about its existence and about its impact on their lives.
Quote from: muuu on February 08, 2013, 02:30:11 PM
I have to transition, I don't and have never seen any value in living as male, so there isn't really any other options.
You got yourself quite the conundrum here. First you say you cannot transition if you aren't 100% passable in any and every situation. Yet, "
you have to transition"?
For most of us that come to point of saying "I HAVE TO transition" there usually aren't any conditions attached. Besides the I have to try it, or suicide condition. While I haven't gotten to that Have To point myself, just about every full-time fully transitioned TS I know was. As in all things human some pass better than others. Some I'd give not at all just as some I'd rate at "Are you kidding me! You are really a...?"
The one other common trait shared is they are far far happier, even with their faults. Even not being perfect.
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Quote from: muuu on February 08, 2013, 07:54:26 PM
Maybe, so far I've barely noticed any changes (thinner skin and slight breast growth). Though, I think I'm genetically unlucky when it comes to fat distribution, so there really isn't that much I can get from HRT.
I've seen you talk about weight in other treads. Muuu if you want breast a butt and all that other stuff your going to have to eat!
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Quote from: muuu on February 08, 2013, 08:24:19 PM
I actually don't want breasts that much, so I'm not very concerned about them. I guess I could use a little more butt, but what's important is hip width.... which is very unlikely to get.
Besides, if fat redistribution is going to stay mostly the same, then I don't see how it would help. I am about 5'8 and 123lbs, so I am at a reasonable weight, and anything since I was 119lbs (first measuring after gain) have gone to my stomach/arms (my butt/hips haven't changed at all).
5'8 123 is under weight I'm 6'1 185 and my family has accused me of being anorexic. I don't know if they'll say that for much longer since I started hormones my appetite as gone through the roof.
Don't know if this will help but... Let me start by saying that I probably live in one of the most closed minded, conservative , trans unfriendly states in the US (Tn). I know I don't pass 100% all the time and my voice is far far from perfect. That being said 99.9% of the people that you come across in day to day life really do not give a flip.Most people are just too busy with their own lives and their own problem's to worry if your nose is little off or if your feet or hands are little bigger or just what ever you think is outing you. If their brain say's female at first glance that's usually all they see.
Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 08, 2013, 07:49:21 PM
I guess I don't talk about it a lot because a lot of the assumptions in the trans community are kinda loaded? Practically everyone says that all the time here, that gender is a social construct and sometimes it seems like they say that only 'cuz they want it to be, just saying. It's not really fair to say men or women are only masculine or feminine because they're raised that way when ... well... a lot of us were raised to be masculine and turned out feminine, or the other way around. I don't know.. it can make me feel pretty written off. But that's a can of worms I refuse to open again :)
Well just personally, I don't know what's so great about being male or female if you didn't have much in common with men or women, and if it's a terrible experience trying to be yourself when everybody thinks you're something different, I don't think anyone would like that... I guess it's kind of confusing because I do want to look female anyway, but that's because not only do I happen to look pretty female in the first place, the way I like to look is the way women happen to be, and the clothes I happen to like are the clothes that happen to be made for women. It's not actually about my body though...
Anyway, sorry to distract the thread, I guess? This is kind of on topic maybe...
I think I mean I think gender is a social construct in the sense that how many of the traits that society deemed to be female oriented, aka feminine, were assigned that way to put women in their place? I mean I don't know the answer to that, but I can't help but feel like a lot of them were.
I was raised to be masculine and turned out to be pretty feminine too, and I don't understand men at all, and also I turned out to be trans, so what does that mean? I don't know. I just don't feel like my femininity would have ever made me transition. It's a discomfort with my body. The sense that I am a woman not a man, and could never be man even of I wanted to. I know this because I tried. Didn't work. Expressing my femininity in the male role didn't do a thing for my dysphoria either.
I don't mean to invalidate your feelings in the least. I just found them to be intriguing just cause they seem to be different from mine. That doesn't make them any more or less valid than mine.
Quote from: kountrygurl on February 08, 2013, 08:36:03 PM
Don't know if this will help but... Let me start by saying that I probably live in one of the most closed minded, conservative , trans unfriendly states in the US (Tn). I know I don't pass 100% all the time and my voice is far far from perfect. That being said 99.9% of the people that you come across in day to day life really do not give a flip.Most people are just too busy with their own lives and their own problem's to worry if your nose is little off or if your feet or hands are little bigger or just what ever you think is outing you. If their brain say's female at first glance that's usually all they see.
Hey I live just south of you in GA and can say I haven't had any problems ether. But you are right people generally don't give a flip about you. They may stare but you get used to that.
Quote from: Heather on February 08, 2013, 08:34:51 PM
5'8 123 is under weight I'm 6'1 185 and my family has accused me of being anorexic. I don't know if they'll say that for much longer since I started hormones my appetite as gone through the roof.
I am 6ft and even at 145 lbs I have enough extra flab jiggling around for another almost another person.
Quote from: JoanneB on February 08, 2013, 09:43:42 PM
I am 6ft and even at 145 lbs I have enough extra flab jiggling around for another almost another person.
I still got a lot of muscle mass I'm hoping hrt will take care of that. If I lose all that I probably be about 145.
I understand what you are saying Muuu. I too have a very high bar for passing that I set for myself. I personally don't feel I have met it, but I do pass and even if I am not completely satisfied with the way I look at this point I will say that living as my true self is 1000x better than living as something I'm not.
I will also say I had no idea how I would turn out or if I would be passable when I started hormones. I personally thought I wouldn't pass, just like you. But guess what? I do. I go out all the time and pass and no one treats me as anything but female.
Muuu, you are very young (if I remember correctly). I let the fear of transitioning and not passing hold me back for many, many years. I very much regret that now. You may feel you can live with not transitioning now, but the years will eat away at your resolve and then you will be faced with the same situation that many of us have faced. You either transition or you don't go on. Don't waste your youth putting on a shell because your worried about what someone else thinks about you.
Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 08, 2013, 11:32:24 PM
I am not really sure there's even a big difference in what we think?
Yeah maybe so. It's kinda interesting that how we frame something in our minds can be affected by so many factors that don't even seem related.
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I know at the end of the day everybody has their own reason to transition though, not trying to invalidate any of them... including OP, the major goal is to be happy and it is your job to define that for yourself.
Yeah, totally.
As recently as last night I asked myself why I am transitioning, to me the answer came quite fast when I asked myself what the alternative were, there wasen't one.
As to what my goal is as I transition / after I transition, to me it's fairly simple, to live as a woman, the woman that I really am. Passing for me is far from a primary goal, to me that is something that I hope will come with time, and judging how people see me, I say that I'm doing good and things will only get better.
I never had much in the way of physical dysphoria though, in fact there was only one part of my body that I really hate and want to see gone because now it's a constant source of anxiety. But I'm comfortable with my body, I was (mostly) comfortable with my body before I started HRT aswell, it was not the body I prefered but I did not hate it.
Just having that feeling made me question starting HRT at all, and it took me weeks if not months before I decided that even though I don't hate the body I got, by starting HRT I will like my body more, I will feel better, be happier. For many reasons, few of them having to do with how my body would look, it would help others see me as a woman and that in itself would make me much more happy then what body I had. And looking back I can only say that I made the right choise, I have never been more happy, more glowing, never before have I felt life feeling so right.
For me SRS is something that is coming up, and even if it is three months before I even get the papers I need to go through with it, and it's looking like I'll have SRS this fall at the earliest, or more likely winter, I have already been spending most of my freetime looking into this, not just looking up information but really asking myself "why?", "do I need this?", "is this right for me?", "is this right for me, now?".
If you're having doubts about transitioning my advice would be to slow down and think about it, really think about it, ask yourself honest questions. At several points during my transition and before I questioned myself, I've questioned myself many times, and each time I've taken these doubts serious. Even if each and everything the answer has come back the same; "Yes, what I'm doing is right for me.". Transitioning, even if seen as something you "have to do" if you're trans* is something very big and serious and needs serious consideration, even if you think you know the answer, confirm it with yourself.
Quote from: Heather on February 08, 2013, 08:34:51 PM
5'8 123 is under weight I'm 6'1 185 and my family has accused me of being anorexic. I don't know if they'll say that for much longer since I started hormones my appetite as gone through the roof.
Just to be precise about weight - which is really important, because there are serious health issues involved - someone who is 5'8" tall and weighs 123lbs has a Body Mass Index of 18.9, which is thin, in fact borderline underweight, but still (just) within healthy limits. You wouldn't want to get much lower than that, but it's not unhealthy.
Someone who is 6'1" tall with a weight of 185lbs has a Body mass Index of 24.41, which is also within the healthy range, but pretty close to the top of it. At that height/weight there's no reason whatever to be concerned, but one would want to start taking care of diet and exercise to prevent any greater weight gain. So it is a very, very, very long way from anorexic. You'd need to be below 135lbs and heading downwards, with associated signs including depression, body dysmorphia, irrational tantrums, lying about food intake, unhealthy eating patters (e.g.. binge/purge) before doctors would get seriously concerned about anorexia.
Buy way of comparison, really serious anorexics, in imminent danger of organ failure or death can be, say, 5'6" tall and get as low as 70lbs. Both you girls are a long, long way from that. Thank God.
Quote from: Carlita on February 09, 2013, 04:03:38 AM
Just to be precise about weight - which is really important, because there are serious health issues involved - someone who is 5'8" tall and weighs 123lbs has a Body Mass Index of 18.9, which is thin, in fact borderline underweight, but still (just) within healthy limits. You wouldn't want to get much lower than that, but it's not unhealthy.
Someone who is 6'1" tall with a weight of 185lbs has a Body mass Index of 24.41, which is also within the healthy range, but pretty close to the top of it. At that height/weight there's no reason whatever to be concerned, but one would want to start taking care of diet and exercise to prevent any greater weight gain. So it is a very, very, very long way from anorexic. You'd need to be below 135lbs and heading downwards, with associated signs including depression, body dysmorphia, irrational tantrums, lying about food intake, unhealthy eating patters (e.g.. binge/purge) before doctors would get seriously concerned about anorexia.
Buy way of comparison, really serious anorexics, in imminent danger of organ failure or death can be, say, 5'6" tall and get as low as 70lbs. Both you girls are a long, long way from that. Thank God.
Ok, ok I have to jump on this because weight issues have me wondering something.
Do celebrities and models lie about their weight? I seriously think so. I am 5'10 and weigh 155 lbs. Most people call me things like "slim" or "skinny." So how in the world can people like Adriana Lima be 112 lbs as she reports and look as good as she does? The times I have gone under 140 lbs I seriously start looking emaciated, and people comment that I look sickly. I don't understand it. How can two people of the exact same height both look skinny and have such a weight difference? Even if Adriana* was lying and weighed 125 lbs I can't imagine myself ever being able to get that skinny and look good.
Do you think it possibly has to do with build size. I am probably a medium build so is she a small?
*Note I am just using Adriana as an example, there are plenty of other girls of 5'10 that report similar weight.
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You have to remember what one person finds pretty or ugly is not the same as what the next person finds pretty or ugly. You just have to remember every woman in the world has flaws even all these " super models" or what your calling " the pretty girls outside". I would be willing to bet every one of them would change something about how they look.
Quote from: kountrygurl on February 09, 2013, 02:23:21 PM
You have to remember what one person finds pretty or ugly is not the same as what the next person finds pretty or ugly. You just have to remember every woman in the world has flaws even all these " super models" or what your calling " the pretty girls outside". I would be willing to bet every one of them would change something about how they look.
i think i get what muuu's saying though. the fact of the matter is that we have these suffocating standards of beauty that EVERYONE who is female is supposed to live up to. and like, that's especially unfair to trans women because a lot of these things are things that statistically speaking show up mostly on cis women. like the whole hips thing. so it's like one thing thinking "oh, this one part of my body doesn't look how i wish it did", it's frequently like several of them at the same time, and it goes beyond things that society at large sees as unattractive, it's frequently stuff that on a woman is perceived as FREAKISH. beard shadow? freakish. deep voice? freakish. broad shoulders? freakish. large hands? freakish.
cis women don't get that to nearly the same degree as trans women do. so to compare trans women's travails with cisnormative standards of beauty to cis women's is pretty unfair to the trans women.
I can understand the desire to pass 100%. But being beautiful? If you're even moderately attractive, women give you an attitude men talk to you like they're zombified. The men that don't talk to you like they're zombified have a girlfriend and don't want to hear your opinion on anything. At least if you don't pass that well, women treat you sweetly and don't automatically have a b-word complex against you. Men might look at you a lil crooked though, but at least they will value your opinion a little more!
Worrying about passing, however, before you've even had a chance to try is just pointless. Also, those high standards you set for yourself are going to be pointless in a few years when 1) you don't care what others think of you, and 2) you're not in that "OMG YOU'RE A BEAUTIFUL HOT GIRL!" age range anymore. But have fun living in your no win situation!
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Quote from: muuu on February 09, 2013, 06:58:38 PM
if people are going to have a bitchy attitude or people not listening... that doesn't matter at all. If I'm treated well for being a male who's into weird clothing and hair... wtf? That means I don't pass, and I'm not treated as a girl at all.
I rather get treated badly while being happy with myself than being treated well while hating myself.
I was trying to give you a little bit of positive spin. But I keep forgetting you always look at the negative and the worst case scenario.
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Quote from: muuu on February 09, 2013, 11:44:38 PM
Anyway... This isn't really a body image issue, nothing is imagined. Basically I'm deformed, I can imagine and delude myself however much I want, it's still not going to change anything.
(I'm not deformed as male, but if I had been female I would be deformed, or at least be a very be abnormal development)
I know what I look like, I know how things are, and I'm not looking for pity or make others feel bad.
I don't want to hear lies and I don't want to hear the truth either. There isn't anything to talk about, there isn't any thing that can help or change anything, and I don't want to delude myself. The only way to avoid these things are by not talking, but I'll still think about it and everything will still be there, everything will still be real.
I think I wanted there to be something to figure out, just there to be something, but there isn't, there is nothing. This is how things are, there isn't anything hidden, this is reality.
Maybe you should post a picture on here, I feel like your emotions are deluding your perception of yourself.
Hey Muuu,
Here's the thing. I don't know anything about you: age/looks/mental disposition, anything, so I'll try to relate to you though me.
I was living as a male for 35yrs before transition. I'm 37 in what? 3 months....gezz. The point I am making is that I WAS LIVING AS A MALE FOR 35 YEARS!!
The fact of the matter is I'm not going to overturn social and my own conditioning of seeing a male in that mirror for the last, lets say 30 years in a snap. It's going to take time.
Transition isn't just a physical thing. It's mental transition as well. Here's the great thing about transitioning though..... you don't know if you'll pass. You truly don't. And the only way to find out? ...Is to transition.
I will say this in my limited exposure to trans groups that I've attended. Everyone commented on how quickly they passed. I felt the the same.
It actually took strangers on the street "'there you go sweetheart". Attendants at cafes "I'll put extra pumpkin on that for your darling" and all this in "guy mode"?
It really shocked me. It truly did. It was amazing that .. here I was at 36, taking hormones to become a woman, not feeling like a woman at all, and strangers in the public were telling me what I wanted to hear, but I didn't believe it because in my own mindset, when I looked in the mirror.... I'm male.
In psychological terms it called "conditional perspective". You only see what you feel. A bit like the pink elephants syndrome yeah?
Muuu, in closing, I believe that you are looking at this from only a physical point of view. Let's say your paranoia is correct and you'll never truly pass as female. Thing is that you'll only every know, truly, after about the two year mark. In the whole two years while transitioning, think about all the hardship, stress and determination it will take you to get there. You'll be a totally different person. I'd imagine by that time you'll have the strength, courage and more determination to not actually be worried any more and learn to talk to others that mirror your own self image and mindset and forget those who don't.
I guess really sweetie, the short answer: You just have to weather the storm.... and do it anyway.
Best wishes on your travels ,
Love,
Jenny
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