100% PROOF! Obama is a KEYNESIAN! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FREWUOk9nTs#)
Quote from: kkut on February 14, 2013, 01:49:48 PM
This is awesome. :)
if you look at the youtube comments.. some say 'na uh, he was born in Hawaii!' haha
She strikes me as a little ...
Merrie Melodies & Looney Tunes - Opening themes. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jTHNBKjMBU#)
Quote from: Ms. OBrien VT on February 14, 2013, 05:27:04 PM
She strikes me as a little ...
Merrie Melodies & Looney Tunes - Opening themes. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jTHNBKjMBU#)
I'm curious if you are referring to her message or how she is acting? is it what she is saying or how she is saying it that is looney?
A little of both, but mostly the way she is presenting it.
I got a kick out of this a coupla months back, when I came across it. It's like - "It's okay, we found her."
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FC4V4U.jpg&hash=1e9cb725bcbac6e270e595c984b4b863a71111b4)
Quote from: Sadie May on February 15, 2013, 12:01:32 PM
I got a kick out of this a coupla months back, when I came across it. It's like - "It's okay, we found her."
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FC4V4U.jpg&hash=1e9cb725bcbac6e270e595c984b4b863a71111b4)
I'm not sure I understand this? sorry?
Quote from: oZma on February 15, 2013, 12:36:39 PM
I'm not sure I understand this? sorry?
No need to apologize, Ozma - There are many things I don't understand... but Life is like that sometimes. :-*
Quote from: Sadie May on February 15, 2013, 12:46:23 PM
No need to apologize, Ozma - There are many things I don't understand... but Life is like that sometimes. :-*
I mean is that chick really trying to say Obama is a Kenyan? and an idiot?
The young lady in the video present a cogent and convincing argument, and does so in a humorous manner. Thank you for posting it.
Quote from: oZma on February 15, 2013, 12:51:00 PM
I mean is that chick really trying to say Obama is a Kenyan? and an idiot?
National Public Radio, as late as 2010, seemed to think so...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftheobamafile.com%2F_images%2FimgD14.jpg&hash=77c5ecfbfaed43a81d3016d99a4b566cadb81955)
Yet another reason to defund that operation.
Since the views expressed by this young girl are applicable universally, a few comments are in order.
If you take 100s of billions of dollars away from entrepreneurs, job creators, in the private sector, and give it to greedy politicians, that's not going to boost the economyNo, but that assumes that entrepreneurs are job creators and sadly, they are not. It also assumes politicians are greedy and that is a case of voter apathy, not economics.
QuoteFor example, public works projects require taxes to pay for it and taxes discourage production in the private sector
Not they don't.
QuoteIn public works projects, we can visable see construction workers working on new highway projects, but we cann't see all the jobs destroyed necessary for the high taxes to pay for the stimulus projects.
Unverifiable claims. The workers build new roads, improving communications so goods can be more easily and cheeply transported therefore stimulating further job creation in the private sector. Moreover, the workers earn a wage which they spend in shops, selling good made by workers and so stimulating the economy.
Quote
All that money that was taken form the productive private sector, it typically goes to fund unnecessary and unprofitable projects.
Money from taxation comes from many sources, wages, companies and financial institutions. It has not been demonstrated that the private sector os profitable or that the funded projects are unprofitable. Indeed, the reason the US workers, on average, pay about the same in taxes as those in the UK, (where we have a state funded health service), is the enormous US military machine that serves little useful purpose other than to entertain a few gung ho Americans giving them a very false sense of security.
QuoteHuge spending cuts after WW2 finally got us out of the great depression. From 1944 to 1948 the federal government cut spending by 75%. The average unemployment rate at this time was 3.5%
No, what brought the world out of recession was the enormous stimulus package the US government gave to Europe and Japan. That lead to a rapid regrowth of both areas, leading to more international trade and stimulating the world economy.
But a large number of people were also directly employed by the US military machine at that time, as they were in the UK. The high unemployment came when these people were laid off in the late 40s early 50.
It's sad that seeming intelligent young women like this are having their minds polluted by self centred political types, peddling worn out theories.
Keynesian economics is yesterdays idea, as is capitalism. The only way to progress is with a flat rate, single tax on incomes, another flat rate of companies, all taxes levied at gross, ie, abolish all deductions against tax.
It is the manipulation of taxation that has destroyed economies by raising taxes overall, except for those with the means to claim exemption and the bribery effects.
QuoteNo, but that assumes that entrepreneurs are job creators and sadly, they are not. It also assumes politicians are greedy and that is a case of voter apathy, not economics.
who are job creators? the definition of entrepreneur says: commonly described as an individual who organizes and operates a business. sounds like a job creator? but ill wait for your answer first =)
there are plenty other definitions, but all seem pretty similar.
QuoteFor example, public works projects require taxes to pay for it and taxes discourage production in the private sector
I'm not sure the point you make by just saying 'no they don't' but I would argue if you take money away from one person and give to another, it will discourage the original person from being more productive as they don't have as much capital to invest.
QuoteUnverifiable claims.
I think that was kind of her point... you can't see what didn't happen... it's like saying 'if the gov didn't intervene during the great depression, it would have been worse' - OK you can make that claim, but its unverifiabe. the opposite MAY be true also, but how would you know? it's a thinking point.
QuoteThe workers build new roads, improving communications so goods can be more easily and cheeply transported therefore stimulating further job creation in the private sector.
This is a good point... but I wouldn't say so much for today... I thank gov for doing all of this in the past, but I think they should pass these kind of things off to private companies. if you let people make profit and compete to do something... they'll do it most of the time cheaper, faster, and generally better :-)
QuoteMoreover, the workers earn a wage which they spend in shops, selling good made by workers and so stimulating the economy.
but to make the claim that just because they make a wage, it will stimulate the economy sounds nice... but I guess that depends on your perspective of what an economy is. spending/consuming or productivity? I mean to say, if I hire and pay wages to one person to dig a hole and another to fill it, you could argue that helps the economy because they have wages? you could also argue that a disaster helps the economy by providing jobs to rebuild? I would argue these things keep the economy in the exact same place, never moving forward because no new wealth has been created, only moved around.
this is an example of the broken window fallacy
QuoteIt has not been demonstrated that the private sector is profitable or that the funded projects are unprofitable. Indeed,
how has this not been proven? solyndra? auto bail outs? gm now makes cars in China! federal flood insurance? there are plenty of examples of gov killing money... but this is all under the assumption that the economy is about productivity, not spending
QuoteNo, what brought the world out of recession was the enormous stimulus package the US government gave to Europe and Japan.
maybe, but to completely reject it as having no relevance? I would argue that MANY things got us out of the great depression. the Cato institute gives their perspective here http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-0508-25.pdf (http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-0508-25.pdf) if you care to read. I'm not completely sold on it, but I like Cato a lot :-)
I would also argue that we have had MANY depressions, and recessions... but only one GREAT DEPRESSION and only one NEW DEAL... correlation isn't causation I know, but it's food for thought
QuoteIt's sad that seeming intelligent young women like this are having their minds polluted by self centred political types, peddling worn out theories.
what worn out theories? Austrian economics? free markets? capitalism?
and I'm so glad you are taking pity and feeling 'sad' for her polluted mind based on your opinions/theory about economics.. economics is all theory, to say she is polluted for teaching herself a theory that makes sense to her? really? . I'm pretty sure you could have left that part out... she's an adult, let her have her own thoughts and ideas without it being 'sad' or polluted. I won't call your perspective polluted, please lets be adults
and you say self centered... I don't see that as a bad thing... the more you can help yourself, the more you help everyone. except stealing and immoral things obvy
QuoteIt is the manipulation of taxation that has destroyed economies by raising taxes overall, except for those with the means to claim exemption and the bribery effects.
agreed, crony capitalism, or corporationism and a utterly complex tax system is destroying our county from the inside out
---*
nice chatting with you Angela! I hope we can continue talking! I need more insight into economics and different theories. Talking with people who have different perspectives really pushes me to learn and I appreciate it :-). I'm thinking about picking up Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations or FA Hayeks Road to Serfdom... maybe even Keyne's General Theory? do you have any suggestions for some brain food?
Quote from: Sadie May on February 15, 2013, 12:01:32 PM
I got a kick out of this a coupla months back, when I came across it. It's like - "It's okay, we found her."
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FC4V4U.jpg&hash=1e9cb725bcbac6e270e595c984b4b863a71111b4)
I like to be a grammar nazi when people use it wrong to call other people idiots.
Quote from: Sadie May on February 15, 2013, 12:01:32 PM
I got a kick out of this a coupla months back, when I came across it. It's like - "It's okay, we found her."
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FC4V4U.jpg&hash=1e9cb725bcbac6e270e595c984b4b863a71111b4)
This bimbo girl with her loony-tune, loud prancing is just a dummy, repeating the same old conservative gibberish
The fact remains that President Obama has done more for the LBGT people than all the previous presidents put together..
and the best is just come...
Quote from: peky on February 15, 2013, 07:24:34 PM
This bimbo girl with her loony-tune, loud prancing is just a dummy, repeating the same old conservative gibberish
The fact remains that President Obama has done more for the LBGT people than all the previous presidents put together..
and the best is just come...
thanks for the ad hominem :-) why does this keep happening?
Quote from: oZma on February 15, 2013, 06:30:20 PM
who are job creators? the definition of entrepreneur says: commonly described as an individual who organizes and operates a business. sounds like a job creator? but ill wait for your answer first =)
The job creators are those that need work to be done.
I won't dwell on the rest of your responses. They are interesting, but we could be here forever. I simply picked quotes from the recording.
But, The speaker has made a succession of unverified claims. That is the problem with Capitalism as it was for Socialism. The support for it has become more important than the reasons. Kinda like saying, if you support Capitalism, you support the USA and freedom. Ergo, if you don't you hate America!
Capitalism has become sacred. To criticise it, to alter it to seek to limit it in any way is attacked as heresy. It portrays all opposition as socialism.
It has transformed itself into an opponent of democracy and freedom. Far from raising living standards, it has created a new poor, dependent upon it and devoid of any means of rescuing itself.
It needs reform yet refuses all attempts labeling these as socialism.
Quote from: spacial on February 15, 2013, 07:35:20 PM
The job creators are those that need work to be done.
I won't dwell on the rest of your responses. They are interesting, but we could be here forever. I simply picked quotes from the recording.
But, The speaker has made a succession of unverified claims. That is the problem with Capitalism as it was for Socialism. The support for it has become more important than the reasons. Kinda like saying, if you support Capitalism, you support the USA and freedom. Ergo, if you don't you hate America!
Capitalism has become sacred. To criticise it, to alter it to seek to limit it in any way is attacked as heresy. It portrays all opposition as socialism.
It has transformed itself into an opponent of democracy and freedom. Far from raising living standards, it has created a new poor, dependent upon it and devoid of any means of rescuing itself.
It needs reform yet refuses all attempts labeling these as socialism.
so if an entrepreneur needs to get something done, isn't that a job creator?
and I would argue that capitalism is sacred.... its an extension of a moral philosophy... freedom...
Quote from: oZma on February 15, 2013, 07:40:16 PM
so if an entrepreneur needs to get something done, isn't that a job creator?
and I would argue that capitalism is sacred.... its an extension of a moral philosophy... freedom...
To the first point, perhaps, but when anyone needs to get a job done it is job creation. I hire someone to repair my home, I create his work. But if his work is unregulated I could equally end up being given shoddy or dangerous results. That is the consequence of unrestrained capitalism.
To your second point, unless you can demonstrate the point, it isn't an argument at all, it's a belief.
Given the current collapse in the world economy brought about by a consequence of unrestrained capitalism and under the governorship of some of the strongest supporters of unrestrained capitalism we've even known, not to mention the destruction of two ancient cultures and the deaths of hundreds of thousands, it's a difficult case to argue.
Quote from: kkut on February 15, 2013, 07:50:58 PM
Spacial, capitalism when actually practiced doesn't fail. Bad government policies fail. Check out the story below, yet another example of capital fleeing the U.S. because of terrible punitive tax policy. More and more of these stories are predictably on their way...
http://www.atr.org/high-tax-rate-former-welterweight-champ-a7474 (http://www.atr.org/high-tax-rate-former-welterweight-champ-a7474)
I won't argue the point.
But capitalism needs regulation since it is clearly incapable of regulating itself.
Quote from: kkut on February 15, 2013, 07:50:58 PM
Spacial, capitalism when actually practiced doesn't fail. Bad government policies fail. Check out the story below, yet another example of capital fleeing the U.S. because of terrible punitive tax policy. More and more of these stories are predictably on their way...
http://www.atr.org/high-tax-rate-former-welterweight-champ-a7474 (http://www.atr.org/high-tax-rate-former-welterweight-champ-a7474)
and
http://www.businessinsider.com/cisco-not-acquiring-us-companies-2013-2 (http://www.businessinsider.com/cisco-not-acquiring-us-companies-2013-2)
and
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/02/14/Like-a-Good-Neighbor-State-Farm-is-No-Longer-There-in-Illinois (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/02/14/Like-a-Good-Neighbor-State-Farm-is-No-Longer-There-in-Illinois)
talk about killing the goose that laid the egg
Presumably, changing the discussion to a different topic indicates you no longer have any disagreement with the points I proposed?
Quote from: spacial on February 15, 2013, 08:08:25 PM
Presumably, changing the discussion to a different topic indicates you no longer have any disagreement with the points I proposed?
nope! just gathering a little bit of knowledge... I'm sure I will be a little bit of heat for this, but this is my belief...
Objectivism is a philosophy created by Russian-American philosopher and novelist Ayn Rand (1905–1982). Objectivism's central tenets are that reality exists independent of consciousness, that human beings have direct contact with reality through sense perception, that one can attain objective knowledge from perception through the process of concept formation and inductive logic,
that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness (or rational self-interest), that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights embodied in laissez-faire capitalism.i would argue that all we have in this life is our morals, our beliefs... and mine is for maximum individual rights... or more commonly known as freedom :)
I'll add a bit more
Rand's defense of individual liberty integrates elements from her entire philosophy. Since reason is the means of human knowledge, it is therefore each person's most fundamental means of survival and is necessary to the achievement of values. The use or threat of force neutralizes the practical effect of an individual's reason, whether the force originates from the state or from a criminal. According to Rand,
"man's mind will not function at the point of a gun." Therefore, the only type of organized human behavior consistent with the operation of reason is that of voluntary cooperation. Persuasion is the method of reason.
By its nature, the overtly irrational cannot rely on the use of persuasion and must ultimately resort to force to prevail. Thus, Rand saw reason and freedom as correlates, just as she saw mysticism and force as corollaries. Based on this understanding of the role of reason, Objectivists hold that the initiation of physical force against the will of another is immoral, as are indirect initiations of force through threats, fraud, or breach of contract. The use of defensive or retaliatory force, on the other hand, is appropriate.
Fine, but this has very little to do with complaints about taxation.
Such complaints are not the province of capitalists, objectivists or indeed any other single group.
Though you seem to be hoping to imply they are.
Quote from: spacial on February 15, 2013, 08:20:05 PM
Fine, but this has very little to do with complaints about taxation.
Such complaints are not the province of capitalists, objectivists or indeed any other single group.
Though you seem to be hoping to imply they are.
taxation is force, therefore immoral
The use or threat of force neutralizes the practical effect of an individual's reason, whether the force originates from the state or from a criminal.
Quote from: kkut on February 15, 2013, 08:19:05 PM
I don't disagree.
However, I strongly believe we're in a state of over-regulation currently.
I do love your idea of a flat tax and getting rid of deductions.
Perhaps, though equally, the regulations are in the wrong place.
The example of flat rate tax and elimination of all deductions is an example I offered to demonstrate that there are indeed alternatives to the unlimited freedoms capitalists currently enjoy.. Though those who make a living from Franchises, (tax relief) and rents (tax relief) among others whose business are based upon tax relief, would be very much opposed, as they are.
Quote from: oZma on February 15, 2013, 08:21:25 PM
taxation is force, therefore immoral
The use or threat of force neutralizes the practical effect of an individual's reason, whether the force originates from the state or from a criminal.
I'm sorry but that is a ridiculous argument.
Without taxation there is no military, no police, no law.
Quote from: spacial on February 15, 2013, 08:25:46 PM
I'm sorry but that is a ridiculous argument.
Without taxation there is no military, no police, no law.
and you are entitled to your opinion :)
if i don't want to support something like WAR, i shouldn't have to...
if something is unsustainable without taxes, it shouldn't exist...
persuasion, not coercion
education, not legislation
Hi friends :police:
Just in case anyone has forgotten, this is a transgender support site and various topics and issues should in some way relate to trans issues
Topic locked
Thank you
V M