Hey guys and girls,
I've been thinking about Disney movies lately, and was wondering what your favorite character was when you were a kid?
I know my cis-sister's favorite character is Bell from Beauty and the Beast, along with a lot of other cis-women I know. Did you MTFs identify or wanted to be like the Disney princesses?
I never really identified or wanted to be like the princesses, I think the closest for me was Pocahontas because I like Native American stuff and she saved John Smith in the end, which was badass. I tended to want to be more like the male characters riding horses and waving around swords, and the fight scenes were always my favorite parts of the movies while my sister really liked the romantic scenes. I also only saw Mulan once, but I remember being blown away that a girl could dress up and act like a man. ;D
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I have always loved American Cocker Spaniels. And it is a cute love story.
I don't think I saw that movie, although I really enjoyed All Dogs Go To Heaven (I am not sure if that's Disney or another one)
How about when I was a college kid? ;D Granted, it was a 'B' movie, but 'The Emperor's New Groove' is hands down my favorite Disney movie of all time, and it has two of my favorite characters: Kuzco and Kronk. So snarky...
Mulan was brilliant too though...
First of all, I LOVE Disney animated films. They're still like my absolute favorite form of entertainment, even though I'm now in my mid-20's. (Them and Studio Ghibli movies.)
As a kid, my favorite character was Simba from "The Lion King." (that was my absolute favorite movie as a kid, so it goes without saying.)
In regards to the Disney princesses, honestly, (and I might be in the minority of MtF's here,) I never really liked most of them too much. I LOVED the movies, but not so much the actual characters themselves. To me, they were too girly. They represented everything that I didn't like about femininity (passivity, a constant focus on love and kissing and other "icky stuff," and things like clothing that I didn't really care about at the time.) [Can't help it... you know, I've always been a feminist at heart.] With that said, though, I really did like a lot of the female characters in Disney films... just not a majority of the traditional princess lineup that little girls tended to emulate, like Cinderella and Snow White. For example, I REALLY liked Nala from "The Lion King." She was almost exactly like my real-life female best friend at the time. And I really liked Ariel from "The Little Mermaid" too, and absolutely LOVED Mulan once I finally saw that movie around age 13. I always loved, (and identified with) girls who could fend for themselves, and had a personality, and opinions, and were more active rather than passive and daydream-y. The only exception to this rule was Aurora from "Sleeping Beauty," because I have always absolutely adored her voice. But yeah, that's my history with it. I definitely wasn't one of those gender-dysphoric kids who wished that he could dress in pretty dresses like the girls, and wear makeup, and all of that other stuff that's usually an early sign that they might be transsexual.
Honestly, if you want a female character from an animated film that I actually did really emulate and identify with, I'd go for Nausicaa from the Studio Ghibli film "Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind." (My avatar, actually.) American animation actually has a nasty tendency to always cast girls in the "damsel in distress" role, or the role of the "sensitive one," or just the "pretty object" role. And that is REALLY far away from my female personality (God, I DESPISE these uber-feminine gender roles, just as much as I despise uber-masculine gender roles.) So there was a real glaring lack of female characters that I could actually identify with growing up. It was when I started watching Studio Ghibli films in high school that, for the first time ever, I really started saying "OMG, that's me" when I finally got to watch characters like Nausicaa, Sheeta, Chihiro, and Shuzuku Tsukishima, the likes of which sadly usually don't exist in American animation.
Oh I love disney movies!! :3 I never really identified with any of the main characters though. I just watched them as movies and had a good time :P Oh oh i remember! I looooved MEEKO! The raccoon from pocahontas! I just thought he was the most adorable and silly thing. And also, as an anthropology major this is pretty much blasphemy but I'll say it anyways! I think pocahontas is one of my very favorite movies, haha. I know it's not historically accurate, I've heard that enough! Just watch it as a movie, not as a portrayal of history! Also, I loooove the hyenas from the lion king, there character design is just so so perfect <3
Modified to add that guuhhh cheeta, i soo agree with you. I always hated that about the disney princesses! I like you're view on that :)
Awesome girl. Plus, she lives in the woods. What's better than that?
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I didn't really see Disney movies that much growing up and I don't think I necessarily identified with anybody in any of them, but I did identify with the music in some. The one that comes to mind is the music from Tarzan (Phil Collins).
I've only see one Disney cartoon movie and that was "The Lion King". Simba is one of my favorite characters from that movie. I can relate to him because he didn't feel worthy and tried to run away.
I love me some disney! I watched the hell out of them as a kid. I still love them, I have every masterpiece movie on VHS and I watch them in chronological order every june.
As far as my characters of choice:
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Just a side note, guess who is included as a disney princess?
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Crazy thought right?
I love Disney movies despite the fact that they tend to not respect the original stories on which they were based. But I could never relate to any of the female characters, which struck me as odd because all my female friends wanted to be one of the princesses and I knew that I was supposed to as well... but I just didn't. Now I know why. ;)
As I child, I loved The Jungle Book and I related to Mowgli, but my all-time favourite is The Lion King, even though I was an adult when it came out. I related to Simba because he had a difficult childhood and lost his father. He spent many years being raised by well-meaning adults who tried to shape him into something he's not. But he still grew into his manhood and became the king he was supposed to be, in spite of the obstacles that had been placed in his path.
Oh, and Mulan? I hated that movie. It was great up until the point where she has to stop pretending to be a boy and had to just go back to her father and accept being a girl again. The message (to me, anyway) was 'OK, you've had your fun... now back to the kitchen with you, little girl'. Ugh.
(Although, to be fair, Mulan did feature one of my favourite gay actors, Harvey Fierstein - so it's not all bad). ;)
Loved all the Disney movies and Esmeralda from Hunchback of Notre Dame was my favorite Disney gal.
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But my all time favorite character is Anastasia which is not from a Disney movie though. I loved everything about that movie. I think deep inside I also wished I was a princess who forgot who she was lol.
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Easy, I identified with
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And the one big material possession I want in my life is...
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Scar was one of the first fictional characters I identified with. I also want the Beast's castle.
Scar was one of my favorites and still is [I have a Scar plushie next to the bed right now :P ]. He's a wickedly mean character and I love it. And he sings an awesome song. Another favorite is Beast [not when he's human]. He was such a sad character to me. Aladdin was also another good one...I generally liked the men a lot in Disney films such as King Triton. I never could get behind the girls. They were usually "woe is me" or showing off their goods and that was fairly annoying to me. They were rarely "strong" and rarely had ambitions other than marrying the person they loved (or thought they loved).
At least up until "The Princess Frog". That was a lady I could get behind. She worked her a** off so she could try to make her dream of owning a restaurant come true. Yes, she found love along the way, but that was never the first thing on her mind.
I also liked that movie because of the Shadow Man [Baron Samedi]. He was wicked! And based off of Baron Samedi...it was just neat for me especially since I lived about 1.5 hours from New Orleans when the movie came out.
Edit:
1. I'm not saying that all of the female characters were weaklings, but the majority I perceived to have a lack of ambition other than marrying the male. And I'm not saying all the males were great because their were plenty I wished would have just gone away.
2. I was never able to identify properly with the female characters. I didn't have any of their attributes. It's always been easier to identify with the male characters in any movie for me.
Quote from: anya on February 19, 2013, 07:37:58 AM
But my all time favorite character is Anastasia which is from a Disney movie though. I loved everything about that movie. I think deep inside I also wished I was a princess who forgot who she was lol.
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[extremely nerdy fangirlism]
Not to be a pill, but "Anastasia" isn't a Disney movie. It was actually made by Fox Animation Studios, under the direction of a very talented ex-Disney animator named Don Bluth, the same guy who directed "The Secret of NIMH," "An American Tail," "The Land Before Time," and "All Dogs Go to Heaven." Although he got his start with Disney in the 1970's, and was a directing animator on many Disney films including "Pete's Dragon" and "The Rescuers," there was actually a BIG internal split within the Disney company just prior to the development of "The Fox and the Hound," which resulted in Bluth and almost half of the Disney animation staff splitting off to start their own animation studio. After dueling for years in the 1980's, with Bluth actually winning many of the head-to-head box-office battles ("An American Tail" nearly doubled the gross of "The Great Mouse Detective" in 1986, one of Disney's lowest moments,) Disney finally experienced a complete renaissance, beginning with "The Little Mermaid" in 1989, and then they scored box-office smash hit after box-office smash hit, culminating with "The Lion King" in 1994, which shattered all previous records for an animated film. At the same time, Bluth's studio was floundering, producing critical and commercial failures like "The Pebble and the Penguin" and "A Troll in Central Park." Finally, in 1997, Bluth's studio basically said "Okay, Disney, you win. What with your epic princess stories and tales of romance and magic." And they basically completely copied the Disney formula, and made their own princess story, one with Broadway-style musical numbers, an epic romance tale, and even a traditional villain. And POOF! "Anastasia" was born. So admittedly it is easy to confuse this film for a Disney movie, because it is basically a complete copy of the Disney formula from the 1990's, but it actually was, again, made by Don Bluth, Gary Goldman, and 20th-Century Fox, not by Disney.
[/extreme nerdy fangirlism]
(Anyone still awake after reading all of that? :P)
Quote from: cheetaking243 on February 19, 2013, 09:46:21 AM
Not to be a pill, but "Anastasia" isn't a Disney movie. It was actually made by Fox Animation Studios,
Absolutely true. what I meant was " Anastasia which is not from a Disney movie though" I have missed the "not" in my post. Thanks for pointing it out :D. I will add the missing word to my original post lol
Aaron Gabriel's post about the apparent weakness of female Disney characters made me think of a recent Disney movie in which I actually did enjoy the representation of the princess: Tangled.
Rapunzel is represented as an independent woman (relative to most Disney princesses) and is a strong character in her own right. Naturally, she falls in love with her 'prince' as per the usual Disney formula, but she's the hero of the piece unlike the usual damsel-in-distress nonsense we've come to expect. I was very proud to have my daughters watch that movie and identify with Rapunzel. For a Disney princess, she's quite a positive role model for young girls. :)
Seriously. If you haven't seen Tangled, I recommend you watch it. It's brilliant.
"Tangled" was a good one for that. I forgot about that movie. I enjoyed it. XD I loved the guy, though, because he was all suave and kind of a ditz. It was an adorable combination. xD
Quote from: Aaron Gabriel on February 19, 2013, 10:13:31 AM
"Tangled" was a good one for that. I forgot about that movie. I enjoyed it. XD I loved the guy, though, because he was all suave and kind of a ditz. It was an adorable combination. xD
The characters were almost the exact antithesis of the usual Disney setup. Awesome stuff and very entertaining to boot. :)
Quote from: FTMDiaries on February 19, 2013, 09:57:02 AM
Aaron Gabriel's post about the apparent weakness of female Disney characters made me think of a recent Disney movie in which I actually did enjoy the representation of the princess: Tangled.
Rapunzel is represented as an independent woman (relative to most Disney princesses) and is a strong character in her own right. Naturally, she falls in love with her 'prince' as per the usual Disney formula, but she's the hero of the piece unlike the usual damsel-in-distress nonsense we've come to expect. I was very proud to have my daughters watch that movie and identify with Rapunzel. For a Disney princess, she's quite a positive role model for young girls. :)
Seriously. If you haven't seen Tangled, I recommend you watch it. It's brilliant.
I LOVE that movie! They found a way to make a main character who was still VERY unmistakably feminine, and yet still had a great personality, and an actual will, and opinions, and although she was scared out of her wits a lot, she still managed to be a strong character who was willing to stand up for herself when she was pushed far enough. I agree. Rapunzel is an AWESOME character.
Honestly, I've never been able to stomach the 'damsel who saves herself' in movies. My dad's the same way. I think there is something seriously lost in our culture that women can't just be feminine and vulnerable anymore in our supposed 'entertainment'.
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 10:45:15 AM
Honestly, I've never been able to stomach the 'damsel who saves herself' in movies. My dad's the same way. I think there is something seriously lost in our culture that women can't just be feminine and vulnerable anymore in our supposed 'entertainment'.
And what's wrong with that? If anything, men can't be vulnerable in modern society. ???
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 10:45:15 AM
Honestly, I've never been able to stomach the 'damsel who saves herself' in movies. My dad's the same way. I think there is something seriously lost in our culture that women can't just be feminine and vulnerable anymore in our supposed 'entertainment'.
And I've never been able to stomach the presumption that women have to wait for a man to save them. -shrug- You can be feminine, but the idea that you have to have a man to be happy or to save you is something I heavily disagree with, but the reliance on any person like that regardless of a person's gender is disgusting to me. I'm big on self-reliance and independence, however. It shapes my viewpoint on the world and what I like in entertainment.
@ cheetaking243: She was definitely feminine. x3 But strong. I enjoyed her a lot. I think the show was the first where I wasn't rooting for the bad guy. I wanted Rapunzel and the guy to win and have their own lives. ^^
@ DianaP: D: I know! Why can't men be a bit vulnerable? It's a shame when one gender is expected to be vulnerable while the other always has to be the "savior". I don't care for it, but I'm not big on the idea that men have to be uber masculine and that women have to be uber feminine.
Quote from: DianaP on February 19, 2013, 10:53:31 AM
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 10:45:15 AM
Honestly, I've never been able to stomach the 'damsel who saves herself' in movies. My dad's the same way. I think there is something seriously lost in our culture that women can't just be feminine and vulnerable anymore in our supposed 'entertainment'.
And what's wrong with that? If anything, men can't be vulnerable in modern society. ???
Because all American entertainment is like this now. You can't watch a movie without all this 'see, she's a woman but see how strong she is! god forbid we actually let the man play the hero'. And it's too obvious. You know, we don't need the heroine to do all this macho posturing just to prove a point. It's supposed to be fiction. I'd love to just see a traditional femme heroine for once. Bella from twilight is like the only one from recent years I can stand.
I don't get it. What's a traditional femme heroine? If anything, "traditional" means that there were no femme heroines! :laugh: ???
I liked Rise of the Guardians. I know it's not Disney, but Dreamworks is close enough. The movie was so good! ;D
Quote from: DianaP on February 19, 2013, 11:07:04 AM
I don't get it. What's a traditional femme heroine? If anything, "traditional" means that there were no femme heroines! :laugh: ???
Well, probably a princess who's actually
not a tomboy engaging in swordplay (or that general theme). Nothing wrong with that kind of thing. It was cool the first few times, but it's really getting old now. AND it perpetuates the 'masculine is cool, feminine is not good enough' thing. When all we have are heroines who basically are men disguised as hot chicks - the message isn't feminism. (And if we must have a heroine like that, how come she can never be like women most likely to be like that - butch. Why does she always have to be 'hot'.)
And this is another reason for trans misogyny. Traditional femininity is perceived as unacceptable, not even good enough for a movie.
Hmm.. Getting back to Disney movies, and thier heroines. I have always had a soft spot for Alice, running away down a rabbit hole to find a reality of non-reality then longing for her home. Maybe it was the whole lost girl in a strange world concept that I identified with.
I agree that being feminine isn't all too bad, but you must remember who you're talking about. I don't think an audience would like to watch a traditional femme hero if that means she can't use a sword. It's all about the money. :P
Anywho, how is one supposed to choose their favorite female character from Disney?
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Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 11:00:33 AM
Because all American entertainment is like this now.
Meanwhile, all you need to do is to watch pretty much any American TV show or movie up to & including the 1970s to see how women used to be represented as helpless little waifs who needed a Big Strong Man to save them. Even Star Trek, which broke so many barriers by having a a female senior officer on the Bridge (and an African-American woman at that!). Most of the women on the show were pretty little things who would fall helplessly for Kirk's charms.
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 11:00:33 AM
I'd love to just see a traditional femme heroine for once.
There are plenty available, if that's your thing. But I think it's great to see characters like Rapunzel, or Debra Morgan, or Abby Sciuto, teaching the girls of today that they can be so much more than a pretty little thing who flutters her eyelashes and aspires to be swept off her feet by a macho man. (OK, maybe Debra Morgan isn't such a great role model for a
young girl). ;)
Either way, I prefer the way women are represented now. I've been raising my daughters to be independent women and I'd hate to have to do that whilst fighting against the misogyny that was standard fayre when I was growing up.
Quote from: FTMDiaries on February 19, 2013, 11:24:00 AM
Most of the women on the show were pretty little things who would fall helplessly for Kirk's charms.
I don't know...it's hard to resist that foxy charmer. ::)
Quote from: DianaP on February 19, 2013, 11:29:23 AM
I don't know...it's hard to resist that foxy charmer. ::)
I agree... just ask Spock. ;)
Oh yeah. I went there. ;D
Quote from: FTMDiaries on February 19, 2013, 11:36:57 AM
I agree... just ask Spock. ;)
Oh yeah. I went there. ;D
Well, it's only logical. ;)
Anywho, I like Prince Charming from Cinderella. I don't care what anyone says, I'm guilty of wanting a prince to sweep me off my feet, so sue me if you want to. :P
Quote from: FTMDiaries on February 19, 2013, 11:24:00 AM
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 11:00:33 AM
Because all American entertainment is like this now.
Meanwhile, all you need to do is to watch pretty much any American TV show or movie up to & including the 1970s to see how women used to be represented as helpless little waifs who needed a Big Strong Man to save them.
Hmm I knew there had to be a reason I prefer films from about 1930 to 1968. :laugh:
Oh I don't really think strong (today's euphemism for 'masculine') heroines are a bad thing, just that there's too much of it nowadays. And I actually enjoy strong female characters who are strong in a feminine instead of masculine way. Another big problem with this is that it certainly doesn't go both ways. There's no soft, effeminate male equivalent in the mainstream (don't know about B movies and the like). So to me the message is clear - women behaving in a traditionally masculine manner is hot and to be celebrated, while neither women nor men behaving in traditionally feminine ways can be cool. I just feel like we as a society have rejected traditional femininity (which I personally find really beautiful and desirable).
But I'm getting off topic here so... (Can you tell this issue has bugged me for awhile? :laugh:)
Quote from: DianaP on February 19, 2013, 11:38:52 AM
Quote from: FTMDiaries on February 19, 2013, 11:36:57 AM
I agree... just ask Spock. ;)
Oh yeah. I went there. ;D
Well, it's only logical. ;)
Anywho, I like Prince Charming from Cinderella. I don't care what anyone says, I'm guilty of wanting a prince to sweep me off my feet, so sue me if you want to. :P
That's the spirit hon!
Growing up I absolutely loved Arielle from Little Mermaid...especially the almost 'kiss scene' while they were boating in that lagoon with all the animals singing'kiss the girl'. I think I was 8 or 9 when I first saw it and I can remember thinking 'how romantic'. Belle from beauty and the beast would be a second....but I can remember thinking how I wouldn't have forgivven him quite so willingly after he locked her father up.
Quote from: Aaron Gabriel on February 19, 2013, 09:40:14 AMAnother favorite is Beast [not when he's human].
Agreed. Beastly Beast is better than human beast.
Tangled is one of my son's favourite movies (and mine too). I like how there is a heroine who is feminine and capable at the same time and none of that "she has to be a tomboy to be badass" I got sick of.
I like The Hunchback of Notre Dame too and The Great Mouse Detective, Aladdin, and many others. Peter Pan, I have discovered, makes me feel uncomfortable though.
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 11:44:05 AM
Meanwhile, all you need to do is to watch pretty much any American TV show or movie up to & including the 1970s to see how women used to be represented as helpless little waifs who needed a Big Strong Man to save them.
Hmm I knew there had to be a reason I prefer films from about 1930 to 1968. :laugh:
Oh I don't really think strong (today's euphemism for 'masculine') heroines are a bad thing, just that there's too much of it nowadays. And I actually enjoy strong female characters who are strong in a feminine instead of masculine way. Another big problem with this is that it certainly doesn't go both ways. There's no soft, effeminate male equivalent in the mainstream (don't know about B movies and the like). So to me the message is clear - women behaving in a traditionally masculine manner is hot and to be celebrated, while neither women nor men behaving in traditionally feminine ways can be cool. I just feel like we as a society have rejected traditional femininity (which I personally find really beautiful and desirable).
But I'm getting off topic here so... (Can you tell this issue has bugged me for awhile? :laugh:)
I think it's because there's a prevalence of women who don't want the message to be that in order to be feminine you have to have a guy or that you have to be saved by a guy. [It's why I hate
Twilight -- I hate the idea that in order to be happy you have to have a guy (if you're a girl). I dislike the idea that there's a "need" to have someone -- you should
want to be with them and not
need to be with them.] Anyway...it's quite possible to be feminine while being strong. [Leelu was a good character to show this and the same with the lead in
The Princess Bride. Both of them were feminine, but they were strong and didn't
need a man to be happy -- something that has been pushed on throughout the movies of the 1900s.]
I'm all fine by characters being feminine and being happy wearing traditionally feminine clothes and being housewives, etc. Just don't show me someone who needs a lover to be happy.
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 19, 2013, 08:02:41 AM
Easy, I identified with
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And the one big material possession I want in my life is...
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Can see that about you. :laugh:
Quote from: Edge on February 19, 2013, 11:52:03 AM
Quote from: Aaron Gabriel on February 19, 2013, 09:40:14 AMAnother favorite is Beast [not when he's human].
Agreed. Beastly Beast is better than human beast.
Tangled is one of my son's favourite movies (and mine too). I like how there is a heroine who is feminine and capable at the same time and none of that "she has to be a tomboy to be badass" I got sick of.
I like The Hunchback of Notre Dame too and The Great Mouse Detective, Aladdin, and many others. Peter Pan, I have discovered, makes me feel uncomfortable though.
Finally, someone who agrees with me! Haven't seen Tangled so I dunno.
Speaking of The Hunchback of Notre Dame, the only Disney character I have ever related to is Frollo. Unfortunately, I know exactly how he feels.
Esmeralda Touched Frollo's Tra LaLa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgAfjNr-N7s#)
Ah I forgot about The Great Mouse Detective, I think that movie is why I love mice so much.
I also preferred the beast as a beast. And I did enjoy the female character in The Princess Frog.
I've always liked the female villains; they're (despite being evil) have always been strong go-getters unlike the damsalin distress.
On the other note brought up by Not so fat admin, I can understand where he's coming from. I think some TV shows, commercials, etc have turned the tables and are showing men as being dumb ogres who can't do anything without their smart, sexy wife helping them (like Leave It To Jim did).
Edit to add: most of the female villains were pretty hot too
So FA, when are you going to come sweep me off my feet and rescue me?
Quote from: Edge on February 19, 2013, 11:52:03 AM
Agreed. Beastly Beast is better than human beast.
He's yummy as the Beast. As the Prince he's...eh...xD I have a thing for cranky guys, though. :P Well, in television. In real life give me a nice androgynous looking man. x3
Why do people say that they liked Beast as a beast? Unless his name is Beast, it goes without saying that his beast form was a beast. You should instead say that you preferred the Prince's appearance when he was transformed into a beast.
Ah, semantics. :P
I think Belle was strong and still feminine.
She certainly didn't need a man and turned down Gaston pretty easily because they didn't connect intellectually. She is curious and adventurous, longing for more. Physically she is not up to much, she is easily overcome by Gaston and imprisoned in her home, I don't remember her 'kicking ass'.
That said, she was strong enough to show love and respect to the Beast and his servants and to draw their kindness out from the heart of them. I'd say that is a more traditionally feminine kind of strength, and so tends to be undervalued.
Quote from: DianaP on February 19, 2013, 12:11:35 PM
Why do people say that they liked Beast as a beast? Unless his name is Beast
It's the only name I remember him being called.
I agree, Pica. She is also intelligent and imaginative.
Quote from: DianaP on February 19, 2013, 12:11:35 PM
Why do people say that they liked Beast as a beast? Unless his name is Beast, it goes without saying that his beast form was a beast. You should instead say that you preferred the Prince's appearance when he was transformed into a beast.
Ah, semantics. :P
Because he was known as beast separately from being known as a prince. :P It was like two entirely different characters instead of two parts of the same character. So you have Beast and then Prince, in my mind. Beast is the cranky, sexy guy and Prince is the weird looking guy. :P
Belle was also a good character. I liked how she read and pushed the gender norms of her era. She was also very feminine and very very sweet, but nice and strong as well. She had a good, strong will and knew what she wanted in life [and it didn't involve a guy though she did get a decent one]. But she was kind on the flip side and was very motherly (in my opinion).
Quote from: Aaron Gabriel on February 19, 2013, 12:00:58 PM
I think it's because there's a prevalence of women who don't want the message to be that in order to be feminine you have to have a guy or that you have to be saved by a guy. [It's why I hate Twilight -- I hate the idea that in order to be happy you have to have a guy (if you're a girl). I dislike the idea that there's a "need" to have someone -- you should want to be with them and not need to be with them.] Anyway...it's quite possible to be feminine while being strong. [Leelu was a good character to show this and the same with the lead in The Princess Bride. Both of them were feminine, but they were strong and didn't need a man to be happy -- something that has been pushed on throughout the movies of the 1900s.]
I'm all fine by characters being feminine and being happy wearing traditionally feminine clothes and being housewives, etc. Just don't show me someone who needs a lover to be happy.
Oh that is a good distinction. Maybe we're on the same page after all. I also was thinking of someone like Buttercup from Princess Bride when I mentioned 'strong in a feminine way'. Love Bella though! :laugh:
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 19, 2013, 12:12:13 PM
That said, she was strong enough to show love and respect to the Beast and his servants and to draw their kindness out from the heart of them. I'd say that is a more traditionally feminine kind of strength, and so tends to be undervalued.
Yeah, that's more what I was talking about. I prefer this kind of femininity in a partner (male or female), so I'm kind of biased I guess. :laugh:
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 12:19:30 PM
Oh that is a good distinction. Maybe we're on the same page after all. I also was thinking of someone like Buttercup from Princess Bride when I mentioned 'strong in a feminine way'. Love Bella though! :laugh:
Yeah, that's more what I was talking about. I prefer this kind of femininity in a partner (male or female), so I'm kind of biased I guess. :laugh:
I don't get how you can like Bella. :P She was /so/ whiny. I can't stand whiners like that, male or female. It's fine to whine on occasion, but all of the time?...And she fell for an emotionally abusive twat. ::) No, don't fall for the guy that's always there and willing to help you no matter what. Instead fall for the guy who's constantly leaving and the creeper who watched you while you
slept. [My other big thing is that she led the good guy (Jacob) on...ugh...]
But...Buttercup was decent. xD Though she fell for a dork. :P That was pretty cool. XD
How DARE you call Westley/The Man in Black/ Dread Pirate Roberts a dork!
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Quote from: Pica Pica on February 19, 2013, 12:29:42 PM
How DARE you call Westley/The Man in Black/ Dread Pirate Roberts a dork!
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:P He's a dork and he's a cute one at that. :P I don't see anything wrong with being a dork or dorky. x3
Quote from: Brooke777 on February 19, 2013, 12:07:08 PM
So FA, when are you going to come sweep me off my feet and rescue me?
now that's what I'm talking about! :-*
Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 19, 2013, 12:41:21 PM
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 12:34:33 PM
The whiny part I never noticed. I just loved how gone she was over love, ready to give up everything and stuff.
Don't remember Edward being emotionally abusive (but it's been awhile since I read the books). How so?
I think Edward was kind of an ass because he did that whole "I'm going to protect you from yourself even if you don't want it" babying thing. But Edward was a total Mary Sue character so of course he gets to talk down to people. If I were Bella I would be pretty whiny too, at least for a while, being friends and the lover of vampires yet stuck in the mortal world listening to Jacob trying to pick me up all the time.
Sorry I can't stand Jacob :)
Mary Sue?
I read the book of Princess Bride before I saw the film so my vision of Westley is not all that dorky. Flip him on his head and you could almost see him as some sort of conniving Steerpike figure.
I'm very big into women's rights. However, I think it would do our society some good to see that it is OK for a woman to be feminine and still strong. I personally want to be rescued (albeit by a woman and not a man). Most of my friends consider me to be a strong woman, and very feminine. Why can't we show our children that you can have it all. That you can be both feminine and strong at the same time?
On the matter of the feminine dichotomy presented by Disney, I must say that neither side is right.
Someone from the 1930's: "Get a job? Aren't you ashamed of yourself? You should be getting married and taking care of your kids."
Someone from today: "You like being a housewife? You should be doing something more rewarding like getting a job."
No difference^^^^
Both sides do the same thing, deny the reality that people are different and want different things. To some women, getting a job is more rewarding than raising kids. To others, raising children is the most rewarding thing in the world. If you want one or the other, it's okay either way. However, no one should tell you what you can and can't want.
Quote from: Brooke777 on February 19, 2013, 01:19:28 PM
I'm very big into women's rights.
I'm sure you don't mean that exactly as it sounds.
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 19, 2013, 01:58:45 PM
I'm sure you don't mean that exactly as it sounds.
Depends, how does it sound to you?
Well, there are two kinds of rights.
The kind that are the few essential things that every human being needs to live a fulfilled life.
Or there's the nebulous things that people whine the need of, like a small child crying 'it's not fair'.
- I assume you agree women deserve the first lot.
I LOVE Snow White's dress.
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Quote from: Pica Pica on February 19, 2013, 02:05:44 PM
Well, there are two kinds of rights.
The kind that are the few essential things that every human being needs to live a fulfilled life.
Or there's the nebulous things that people whine the need of, like a small child crying 'it's not fair'.
- I assume you agree women deserve the first lot.
Yes, the first. I believe fully in equal rights for all. I don't care what your gender, sexual orientation, race, age, religion, anything. We all deserve to be treated the same.
Of course you do, you're sane.
Wow, according to that the last 10+ years of my life have been abusive. My now ex wife used to meet all the criteria except 5 points. Huh, I never knew it was an abusive relationship. I just figured it sucked.
Quote from: Brooke777 on February 19, 2013, 02:38:29 PM
Wow, according to that the last 10+ years of my life have been abusive. My now ex wife used to meet all the criteria except 5 points. Huh, I never knew it was an abusive relationship. I just figured it sucked.
Split to new topic
Abusive relationships (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,135997.msg1089607/topicseen.html#msg1089607)
Oh that's another thing I like about Tangled: Rapunzel and Flynn are more like partners. They are both equally capable, they both have character development not to mention personalities in the first place (sorry, Prince Charming, but you are cardboard), and they work together.
Quote from: Edge on February 19, 2013, 05:01:26 PM
Oh that's another thing I like about Tangled: Rapunzel and Flynn are more like partners. They are both equally capable, they both have character development not to mention personalities in the first place (sorry, Prince Charming, but you are cardboard), and they work together.
Flynn was a bad influence on my son. He is now aware that he has a "smolder" and he uses it often to get free stuff. That kid is so adorable! ;D
Quote from: Brooke777 on February 19, 2013, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: Edge on February 19, 2013, 05:01:26 PM
Oh that's another thing I like about Tangled: Rapunzel and Flynn are more like partners. They are both equally capable, they both have character development not to mention personalities in the first place (sorry, Prince Charming, but you are cardboard), and they work together.
Flynn was a bad influence on my son. He is now aware that he has a "smolder" and he uses it often to get free stuff. That kid is so adorable! ;D
So that's where that came from!
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 06:08:06 PM
Flynn was a bad influence on my son. He is now aware that he has a "smolder" and he uses it often to get free stuff. That kid is so adorable! ;D
So that's where that came from!
Yeah, and he is still upset that he "broke his smolder". But, he has been trying to work with those silly gaps in his teeth to "fix it". He is going to be so much trouble when he hits puberty.
Quote from: Brooke777 on February 19, 2013, 06:10:26 PM
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 06:08:06 PM
Flynn was a bad influence on my son. He is now aware that he has a "smolder" and he uses it often to get free stuff. That kid is so adorable! ;D
So that's where that came from!
Yeah, and he is still upset that he "broke his smolder". But, he has been trying to work with those silly gaps in his teeth to "fix it". He is going to be so much trouble when he hits puberty.
Broke his smolder! That's adorable. :laugh:
I Loved Oliver & company..
Quote from: DianaP on February 19, 2013, 01:27:03 PM
On the matter of the feminine dichotomy presented by Disney, I must say that neither side is right.
Someone from the 1930's: "Get a job? Aren't you ashamed of yourself? You should be getting married and taking care of your kids."
Someone from today: "You like being a housewife? You should be doing something more rewarding like getting a job."
No difference^^^^
Both sides do the same thing, deny the reality that people are different and want different things. To some women, getting a job is more rewarding than raising kids. To others, raising children is the most rewarding thing in the world. If you want one or the other, it's okay either way. However, no one should tell you what you can and can't want.
Well said DianaP. Everyone should have the right to be whoever they want to be.
Quote from: DianaP on February 19, 2013, 02:07:55 PM
I LOVE Snow White's dress.
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Fun fact, my earliest memory is from when I was four wanting to be Snow White for Halloween...
My favorite growing up was Cinderella. Just watched it last week too! I plan on being a Disney princess every year for Halloween now for the next five years since I didn't get to when I was a little girl.
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Quote from: Serena Lynn on February 20, 2013, 01:04:51 PM
My favorite growing up was Cinderella. Just watched it last week too! I plan on being a Disney princess every year for Halloween now for the next five years since I didn't get to when I was a little girl.
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aww bet you look awesome as Cinderella! Do we get to see pics?
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 11:15:51 AM
Well, probably a princess who's actually not a tomboy engaging in swordplay (or that general theme). Nothing wrong with that kind of thing. It was cool the first few times, but it's really getting old now. AND it perpetuates the 'masculine is cool, feminine is not good enough' thing. When all we have are heroines who basically are men disguised as hot chicks - the message isn't feminism. (And if we must have a heroine like that, how come she can never be like women most likely to be like that - butch. Why does she always have to be 'hot'.)
And this is another reason for trans misogyny. Traditional femininity is perceived as unacceptable, not even good enough for a movie.
The problem is not women doing swordplay. A woman doing something actiony does not make her a' man disguised as a hot chick'. I don't think this is how you meant it, but the implications that she must act a certain way to 'be' a woman are distasteful. This sort of sentiment is common in our culture.
But how she is written might contribute to the negative feeling you and many experience. Female characters more often than not lose the quality of actually being characters and become written as the 'prefect girl' for whatever male protagonist is there, and sometimes the audience.(note: there are different versions of 'perfect girl', but they all share a pandering 'isn't this chick hot? guys want to be with her, girls want to be her' quality that is grating.) They're written more like a prop than a character. So yes, the message isn't feminism by a long shot.
If I see a well written action female I don't have a problem.
If I see a well written 'traditionally feminine' female I don't have a problem
If they aren't well written? Well I ain't going to enjoy that.
A good example of a non pandering action character, from what I can remember, is Liz from the Hellboy movies. She doesn't feel like she was made specifically for the protagonist with a few shallow traits thrown in in a half hearted attempt to make a character. She also gets saved in the end, but not because she's female and she has to be saved.
The problem is never character traits, but why and how writers implement them. Personally I come from the angle that I write characters, not genders.
And here here, let's have some butch girls out there. And effeminate men!
QuoteYou can't watch a movie without all this 'see, she's a woman but see how strong she is! god forbid we actually let the man play the hero'.
Men are almost always the protagonist and in the end 'save the day'. Women are the helpers... and always end up macking him.
I will agree completely that we need male characters that aren't 100% masculine macho macho. Overlap in masculine and feminine qualities make the most believable character traits. Let the guys show emotion and feelings that aren't related to completely devastating events like a parent's death.
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 20, 2013, 01:11:22 PM
aww bet you look awesome as Cinderella! Do we get to see pics?
Awe! Thank you!! *blushes* and of course you get to see pic!!! I heart Halloween! :)
DeeW, I think FA meant that there's this misogynist perception that a female character has to be "masculine" to be "good enough." You're right. The problem is not women doing swordplay. I am having trouble explaining it. :/
Here's an example: When I younger, a few of the girls I knew sneered at anything they considered "girly" as if it was an insult. (That should not be an insult.) I think those are the kinds of characters FA was talking about.
Although growing up with many Disney movies, I have never really liked any of the characters enough. I do relate better with characters of Studio Ghibli, most notably San from Princess Mononoke. I really do love getting lost in a forest.
I hate disney lol, Studio Ghibli all the way! I like Haku from Spirited Away and Baron from Whispers of the Heart and The Cat Returns.
I liked Mulan, I related to her for obvious reasons, but it always upset me that she went back to being a girl when she seemed so much more herself as a guy. I liked Pocahantas, I have native in me and was raised with those morals and beliefs, plus she was a strong female character. Little Mermaid too, another strong female character. I didn't like the princess movies really, not because they were too girly, it just felt like most of them were sitting around waiting for some dude to save them and make them happy in life. Beauty and the Beast was the only one I watched more than once. Belle, she was happy just being in a library by herself all day, she wasn't waiting for prince charming.
If were gonna talk Studio Ghibli... 8) Those were the movies I watched over and over as a kid. Spirited Away was my favourite by far. I wanted to be Haku. I watched Kiki's Delivery Service a million times, mostly because of my sister, but I really liked it too, she was doing her own thing and Jiji was awesome (I swear I lost it when I found out Kiki doesn't regain the ability to talk with Jiji in the original. It's supposed to be a metaphor for growing up) I liked Castle in the Sky a lot too. It was mostly the pirates :P aaaand Porco Rosso :P I hope Miyazaki does end up making the sequel
I never explicitly liked Disney films and especially the over-the-top girlishness it pushes. I've always had a lot of female friends growing up and I never really remember them gushing about wanting to be a princess. I watched beauty and the beast with three girls I was friends with at the time and I loved it though. We prob watched five times in a row, for realz. I can't remember if identified with belle or not, as it sounds like something I would want, especially since she loves libraries. I do too. But I wouldn't have ever betrayed that emotion then and I know I used to imagine myself in the female role in a lot of movies. But a lot of the Disney movies it has to do with "getting the guy" and I'm not into guys, so there's that. Actually, I'm kinda worried I will start to like guys once I'm on hormones for a couple months, as others have said that has happened. I don't think it's too far flung, and for whatever reason it scares me. I mean what if I run into a guy I used to be best friends with and now I want him? I don't know. Guess I'll find out!
I didn't see any Studio Ghibli movies until I was around 17 or so, a friend had me watch Spirit Away with her. I liked that movie, then later she had me watch another one, I forget the name, about the house that walked and had Billy Crystal do the voice of the fire in the fireplace?
Edit: Howard's Moving Castle or something like that...
Howl's Moving Castle, loved that one too.
I love, love, love your avatar Sebby. Daryl is the greatest and I won't say anything else that may spoil the last episode. But it was pure Daryl awesomeness.
For fun, I just took a "What Disney Princess Are You" test on OKCupid. Turns out, I'm Belle from Beauty and the Beast. ;D
Quote from: Brooke777 on February 21, 2013, 04:00:33 PM
For fun, I just took a "What Disney Princess Are You" test on OKCupid. Turns out, I'm Belle from Beauty and the Beast. ;D
I am Cinderella :laugh:
I'm "super sweet like Snow White". ;D
Quote from: anya on February 21, 2013, 10:21:59 PM
I am Cinderella :laugh:
That was a cute little "test" wasn't it?
Quote from: DianaP on February 21, 2013, 10:27:50 PM
I'm "super sweet like Snow White". ;D
I would have pegged you as a Fiona. Strong, smart, and independent.
Mulan. I just couldn't identify with most of the other princesses.
Quote from: Brooke777 on February 22, 2013, 09:39:30 AM
I would have pegged you as a Fiona. Strong, smart, and independent.
Oh, she wasn't one of the princesses on the quiz I took, but thank you! ;D
I love those little quizzes. It said I was most like Belle, that's probably fairly straight on.
I dont remember watching a lot of Disney when I was a kid, but I do remember enjoying The Lion King and Beauty and the Beast. I identified more with the prince/beast though. Being stuck in the wrong body and looking like a freak - I knew how he felt! How to Train Your Dragon wasn't out when I was a kid, but its my favourite Disney movie. It reminds me of my family and I relate to Hiccup. He's this weedy nerdy kid in a family of big hairy Scottish Vikings who think you're not a real man if you haven't killed a couple of deer every morning for your breakfast steaks, and it really sums up all my insecurities about my masculinity and why I used to think I'd never manage to transition.
Quote from: Mosaic dude on February 22, 2013, 10:44:40 PM
How to Train Your Dragon wasn't out when I was a kid, but its my favourite Disney movie. It reminds me of my family and I relate to Hiccup. He's this weedy nerdy kid in a family of big hairy Scottish Vikings who think you're not a real man if you haven't killed a couple of deer every morning for your breakfast steaks, and it really sums up all my insecurities about my masculinity and why I used to think I'd never manage to transition.
Okay, here we go again...
[extreme nerdy fangirlism] "How to Train Your Dragon" is also not a Disney movie, it's actually Dreamworks. Although, just like "Anastasia," it was made by an ex Disney animator who joined another studio, so the similarities are understandable. (It was directed by Chris Sanders, who was part of the story team of "Beauty and the Beast," "Aladdin," "The Lion King," "Mulan," and directed "Lilo and Stitch" before he left the Disney studio over creative differences with the new Chief Creative Officer during the production of "Bolt" back in 2007, and joined Dreamworks, where he directed "How to Train Your Dragon," as well as their upcoming film "The Croods.") [/extreme nerdy fangirlism]
Can you all tell that I'm a total animation nerd? ;)
(And I'm really sorry if these posts are coming off as obnoxious to anyone... this is just something that I'm kind of always in the habit of informing people about whenever it comes up. [Sorry, I just spend WAY too much time on the IMDB message boards for Disney movies...])
Quote from: cheetaking243 on February 23, 2013, 04:09:01 AM
Can you all tell that I'm a total animation nerd? ;)
Girl......!!! you really know your stuff about animation ;)
Cheetaking, was The Nightmare Before Christmas disney?
Sometimes I can identify with Jack, it's like I feel like I am surrounded by a bunch of crazy people who can't understand what it is I am trying to do.
Quote from: LearnedHand on February 23, 2013, 08:13:18 AM
Cheetaking, was The Nightmare Before Christmas disney?
Sometimes I can identify with Jack, it's like I feel like I am surrounded by a bunch of crazy people who can't understand what it is I am trying to do.
Yes, The Nightmare Before Christmas belongs to Disney.
I like Lock, Shock, and Barrel.
Quote[extreme nerdy fangirlism] "How to Train Your Dragon" is also not a Disney movie, it's actually Dreamworks. Although, just like "Anastasia," it was made by an ex Disney animator who joined another studio, so the similarities are understandable. (It was directed by Chris Sanders, who was part of the story team of "Beauty and the Beast," "Aladdin," "The Lion King," "Mulan," and directed "Lilo and Stitch" before he left the Disney studio over creative differences with the new Chief Creative Officer during the production of "Bolt" back in 2007, and joined Dreamworks, where he directed "How to Train Your Dragon," as well as their upcoming film "The Croods.") [/extreme nerdy fangirlism]
Wowzers! You sure know your animation! Are you in the industry?
Quote from: LearnedHand on February 23, 2013, 08:13:18 AM
Cheetaking, was The Nightmare Before Christmas disney?
Sometimes I can identify with Jack, it's like I feel like I am surrounded by a bunch of crazy people who can't understand what it is I am trying to do.
Yep, you can count "Nightmare Before Christmas" as a Disney film.
[extreme nerdy fangirlism] Tim Burton actually got his start as a Disney animator when he was fresh from graduating from CalArts, around 1982-83 or so. And around that time, he got "Nightmare" into the early stages of development, possibly as a TV special, but the current ownership of the Disney studio at the time (led by Ron Miller,) kind of had this thing going where they always used the phrase "It's what Walt would have wanted" to keep from taking risks, so their films around that time all pretty much just tended to be "safe," and so they pulled the plug on it, deciding that the story was too dark and too "out there" for a Disney animated film. Burton eventually left the studio, but Disney held onto the rights for years afterward, so when the entire ownership of Disney's animation studio was completely switched in the mid-80's to Michael Eisner and Jeffery Katzenberg, they were much more willing to take risks, because they ran the studio like a business rather than the "sweet little animation house that uncle Walt built." So, yeah, The Nightmare Before Christmas was indeed produced under the Disney label, and was directed by another Disney animator, Henry Selick, who also went on to make "James and the Giant Peach" for Disney a few years later, and then went on to make "Coraline" for his own studio a long time later.
(Side note: Pixar's films came into being in much the same way that "Nightmare" did... John Lasseter was an animator at Disney in the early 80's, he started working on an idea for a CGI-animated film, Disney fired him because they didn't think the idea had any merit within their traditional business model, and then years later the studio, now under the ownership of Eisner and Katzenberg, decided that they were finally willing to take the risk, and let him make the film.)
[/extreme nerdy fangirlism]
Quote from: Mosaic dude on February 23, 2013, 09:18:02 AM
Wowzers! You sure know your animation! Are you in the industry?
Nope, just a VERY big fan, and something that I am really passionate about. (Unfortunately, my drawing kind of sucks, so I was never able to even consider going into the field even though I absolutely LOVE it.) I find everything about the entire process so fascinating, especially traditional hand-drawn animation. I LOVE the bonus features on Disney films, as well as watching documentaries like "Waking Sleeping Beauty" and "The Pixar Story" that really go into the nerdy details about the artists behind the films. I love them!
I SO wish that I could draw or paint, because I love visual art so much, but again, I suck at it.
(Side note: if anyone is interested in musicals, and wants to catch a glimpse of the artistic work of one of the true geniuses of the genre, I highly recommend checking out the bonus features on "Waking Sleeping Beauty," which show Howard Ashman coaching Jodi Benson during the recording of "Part of Your World," and doing a lecture on why animation and music were made for each-other. Those short little features really are like pure gold in terms of artistic inspiration.)
Quote from: cheetaking243 on February 23, 2013, 10:40:16 AM
I SO wish that I could draw or paint, because I love visual art so much, but again, I suck at it.
Me to, but I am giving it a go anyway. I am painting quite a complicated scene of Samuel Johnson, Oliver Goldsmith and I sharing pringles in my living room with samuel Pepys peeking in through the window. It's on a big long canvas and I have been plucking at it bit by bit for a month. It looks absolutely nothing as I intended and is deeply flawed (though not yet finished) but the pleasure I am getting from just going for it is huge and outweighs the frustration.
If Nightmare Before Christmas was a Disney movie, than it's definitely my favourite Disney movie :P
Quote from: Darkflame on February 23, 2013, 06:36:31 PM
If Night Before Christmas was a Disney movie, than it's definitely my favourite Disney movie :P
That movie scares me!
oooooooohhh i love disney movies, im addicted to them, i cant enter a dvd store without leaving with at least 2 of those movies :D
if i have to choose wich my favorite disney character is, it would be Ariel from the little mermaid. Somehow i always felt some kind of connection because she also wanted to be different and she eventually was able to make that wish come true. an probably also because i think the ocean is fascinating wich gave the movie extra points compared to others :D
now i think ill be watching tonight ^^
Quote from: Lillymon on March 07, 2013, 07:18:38 AM
an probably also because i think the ocean is fascinating wich gave the movie extra points compared to others :D
now i think ill be watching tonight ^^
Yeah I always liked the sealife in that movie too, it always made me want to go scuba diving
Jessica Rabbit...100%.
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 23, 2013, 12:04:54 PM
Me to, but I am giving it a go anyway. I am painting quite a complicated scene of Samuel Johnson, Oliver Goldsmith and I sharing pringles in my living room with Samuel Pepys peeking in through the window. It's on a big long canvas and I have been plucking at it bit by bit for a month. It looks absolutely nothing as I intended and is deeply flawed (though not yet finished) but the pleasure I am getting from just going for it is huge and outweighs the frustration.
Genius!
I can hardly wait for
Oz: The Great and Powerful to open Friday
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 23, 2013, 12:04:54 PM
Me to, but I am giving it a go anyway. I am painting quite a complicated scene of Samuel Johnson, Oliver Goldsmith and I sharing pringles in my living room with samuel Pepys peeking in through the window. It's on a big long canvas and I have been plucking at it bit by bit for a month. It looks absolutely nothing as I intended and is deeply flawed (though not yet finished) but the pleasure I am getting from just going for it is huge and outweighs the frustration.
I hope you post a picture when you finish!