...and being called Miss
God i just hate it so much. I had to sit and give all my details yesterday for a change of utility supplier and because i was uttering he kept asking me to a) repeat my name and b) 'is that miss?' *mutters* yeah... 'sorry is that miss?' yeah. I couldn't look him in the eye for the rest of the time he was there - utterly humiliating. Whats worse is that I had to do it all over again on the follow up call on a 'bad line' I swear people have some sort of vendetta to make me say my name and gender so much this week...
What's really got me though is that I didn't expect it, at all. To feel like that. I thought I could deal with it and it turns out I can't and I know that I'll get this a lot.. god its depressing
Count yourself lucky to not be a french speaker, where gender in language construction is much more important and seeing everyone trip over referring to you in the correctly gendered phrase even 10 months later (not to mention that you have to be carefull not to out yourself by making that kind of error too; switching gender in language is much harder than in english (I am totally fluent in french and english).
I don't really mind 'miss' so much, but I get murderous if someone calls me 'ma'am' or something like 'You're a ________ woman', even if it's a nice statement.
I hate sir.
The whole he/she thing never bothered me that much. I really hate sir though.
It wasn't the being called miss so much as the fact I really didn't expect it to feel that way on hearing it I guess... Ive come to the conclusion its okay if written down, but not in speech. I hate hearing it more than anything...
I really hate being called sir.
Quote from: Judge Yourself on May 23, 2007, 06:50:14 AM
What's really got me though is that I didn't expect it, at all. To feel like that. I thought I could deal with it and it turns out I can't and I know that I'll get this a lot.. god its depressing
Yep, I hear ya. It was the same with me. It seems the more you accept who you are, the more those pronouns hurt. And *especially* as you start transitioning and trying to LIVE for real finally... wrong pronouns REALLY hurt.
Before beginning to transition, I didn't much like the SIRS, but I also knew I couldn't expect anything else. But as soon as this journey began though, I started having HOPE - hope to be seen and recognized - so every SIR felt like a failure, a chipping away at my hope that things would ever change, that'd I'd ever be seen for who I am.
~Kate~
I mean ive stopped dressing as girl (not that I did anyway much so it wasnt that much of a change) and tend to hide in baggyish things and the one pair of jeans i have left. I've tossed everything else out so im left with one change of clothes that needs to be washed regularly cause its all i wear. it makes me feel like the small step ive taken so far, isnt even taken seriously. I know i cant blame the guy for saying as he saw, i just hate *what* he saw, if you get me...
I don't like when someone calls me 'ma'am' because it makes me feel old, i want to be called "miss"
but i know what you mean, i hate being called sir or he, or him, but being called sir or mister so and so is the worse.
I totally get what you mean... those little things can bite ya big.
The thing with pro-nouns it can be good and it can be bad.
Before I transitioned, I was quiet often taken as female, even when wearing male business clothes. It was very flattering to be called ma'am, miss, she etc. I hated being called sir, he, etc, when presented as male, which was only at work.
Post transition I have been very lucky in that I pass very well and I have not once been called the wrong pro-noun, even by people who know me, for example the people I work with. But I would not like for someone to use the wrong pro-noun now, as it would not make me feel all that good.
But I can understand that people using the wrong pro-nouns post transition would be quiet hurtful, it just hasn't happened to me, thankfully.
Sally
I just think it's so funny that tiny things can change how people view you. A couple weeks ago, I got "miss'd" a few times, and couldn't figure it out, nor could my wife. So I cut my hair a little shorter on the sides (even though it was barely over an inch long to start with), and now I hear nothing but "sir." I don't get it.
Also, I was pulled over the other night (aaargh can't they just quit it with the speeding tickets already?!) and on the ticket (ugh), my information was noted concurrent with that on my driver's license. My name is not legally changed as yet, so my license still has my girly name. That was on the ticket correctly, but under gender it said "UNKNOWN." Still, I get the occasional "miss" or "ma'am;" I just try to remember that I got called sir back when I had long hair and wore girly clothes. If someone doesn't know who I am, that's their problem, not mine. I know I'm a man.
Dean
I think thats a fantastic perspective to have and I guess it must come with time - the fact i'm a self conscious mess right now prolly isn't helping much either...
Quote from: Judge Yourself on May 23, 2007, 06:50:14 AM
I swear people have some sort of vendetta to make me say my name and gender so much this week...
What's really got me though is that I didn't expect it, at all. To feel like that. I thought I could deal with it and it turns out I can't and I know that I'll get this a lot.. god its depressing
That's what forced me to do the legal name change. I couldn't take it anymore.
Quote from: Kate on May 23, 2007, 11:05:05 AM
Yep, I hear ya. It was the same with me. It seems the more you accept who you are, the more those pronouns hurt. And *especially* as you start transitioning and trying to LIVE for real finally... wrong pronouns REALLY hurt.
As in "breaking down and crying" kind of hurt.
It's good that I'm not the only one - i dunno i felt a bit silly at first but its driving me increasingly nuts...
Quote from: Judge Yourself on May 23, 2007, 11:13:45 AM
I mean ive stopped dressing as girl (not that I did anyway much so it wasnt that much of a change) and tend to hide in baggyish things and the one pair of jeans i have left. I've tossed everything else out so im left with one change of clothes that needs to be washed regularly cause its all i wear. it makes me feel like the small step ive taken so far, isnt even taken seriously. I know i cant blame the guy for saying as he saw, i just hate *what* he saw, if you get me...
Y'know, maybe that guy wasn't asking "
is that miss?" because 'Miss' is what he saw, but because he wasn't sure. Which means that the fact that you've stopped dressing as a girl
is having a social effect, and a serious one. Old son, that guy was
not asking if you are married.
I hardly notice wrong pronouns unless I'm having a lousy time already. But I hate the wrong titles and grind my teeth a little every time I get called "Miss" or "Ma'am" or "Lady." I can see it, with the pronouns or calling me a "woman" 'cause yeah, my female sex is fairly obvious to most people on second-glance. The other stuff feels like a deliberate attempt to circumvent my gender-presentation and 'correct' me. The worst is the "Ma'am" delivered in the tone of "I am so clever, I figured out what you are!" triumph. Yeah, thank you, Danielle our waitress for tonight, it took a great deal of clever to come up with the wrong answer when I'm broadcasting the right one in such an obviously deliberate way.
I do occassionally correct the missplaced 'Miss' by saying, "Sir, thank you," and nothing has come of this. Yeah, people don't generally take it seriously, but nobody's had a flying fit about it. They usually don't start 'sir'ing me either, but they do drop the titles entirely, which is better than 'Miss.'
Keira's comments about French are interesting. I wish I knew some trans people who were Thai speakers. I wonder how much easier it might be to be trans in Thai. I understand that in Thai, the only gendered pronouns are "I" and "me" while the equivalents of "He/she him/her his/hers" are all gender-neutral. So you announce your own gender in that language, but never announce that of others unless you're outright saying, "Billie is a girl." I bet this makes transitions a heck of a lot easier on Thai trans-folks, and on everybody around them.
why do we get so upset over simple wordage and other people's ignorance? I had co-worker at a part-time job ask "will that be all sir?" when i was shopping int the store once. There were several people around and he immediately realized his faux paus. He began apologizing and i just kept on laughing. Every now and then friends and family still let a he or him slip out but nothing is meant to be corrective by any means. When people are trying to be condescending then I don't see the need to sink to their level and let it bother me. They are the one with insecurity issues, not me.
Quote from: Doc on May 24, 2007, 07:04:34 PM
Quote from: Judge Yourself on May 23, 2007, 11:13:45 AM
I mean ive stopped dressing as girl (not that I did anyway much so it wasnt that much of a change) and tend to hide in baggyish things and the one pair of jeans i have left. I've tossed everything else out so im left with one change of clothes that needs to be washed regularly cause its all i wear. it makes me feel like the small step ive taken so far, isnt even taken seriously. I know i cant blame the guy for saying as he saw, i just hate *what* he saw, if you get me...
Y'know, maybe that guy wasn't asking "is that miss?" because 'Miss' is what he saw, but because he wasn't sure. Which means that the fact that you've stopped dressing as a girl is having a social effect, and a serious one. Old son, that guy was not asking if you are married.
I hardly notice wrong pronouns unless I'm having a lousy time already. But I hate the wrong titles and grind my teeth a little every time I get called "Miss" or "Ma'am" or "Lady." I can see it, with the pronouns or calling me a "woman" 'cause yeah, my female sex is fairly obvious to most people on second-glance. The other stuff feels like a deliberate attempt to circumvent my gender-presentation and 'correct' me. The worst is the "Ma'am" delivered in the tone of "I am so clever, I figured out what you are!" triumph. Yeah, thank you, Danielle our waitress for tonight, it took a great deal of clever to come up with the wrong answer when I'm broadcasting the right one in such an obviously deliberate way.
I do occassionally correct the missplaced 'Miss' by saying, "Sir, thank you," and nothing has come of this. Yeah, people don't generally take it seriously, but nobody's had a flying fit about it. They usually don't start 'sir'ing me either, but they do drop the titles entirely, which is better than 'Miss.'
Keira's comments about French are interesting. I wish I knew some trans people who were Thai speakers. I wonder how much easier it might be to be trans in Thai. I understand that in Thai, the only gendered pronouns are "I" and "me" while the equivalents of "He/she him/her his/hers" are all gender-neutral. So you announce your own gender in that language, but never announce that of others unless you're outright saying, "Billie is a girl." I bet this makes transitions a heck of a lot easier on Thai trans-folks, and on everybody around them.
It's funny cause I totally didn't think about it like that. I guess I tend to expect the worst from people and end up angering myself possibly unnecessarily as a result. I guess he could have been checking cause he wasn't sure, I just tend to think of it as him being generally trying to annoy me. A habit that I will need to get out of. Yeah I think the worst case is really when people know but feel the need to smarmily point it out. It's sad that people cant look and see 'people' without making it a little game to guess the gender really. I guess no matter how confident / sure you are its always a knock to the system. I hope that gets a little better with time.
The Thai thing is so interesting, I didn't actually know that till now. I used to find it frustrating that in spanish it was the masculine/feminine table and such. But I dunno I wish i lived there now, sort of ;)
Quote from: Renae.Lupini on May 25, 2007, 07:51:49 AM
why do we get so upset over simple wordage and other people's ignorance? I had co-worker at a part-time job ask "will that be all sir?" when i was shopping int the store once. There were several people around and he immediately realized his faux paus. He began apologizing and i just kept on laughing. Every now and then friends and family still let a he or him slip out but nothing is meant to be corrective by any means. When people are trying to be condescending then I don't see the need to sink to their level and let it bother me. They are the one with insecurity issues, not me.
I asked myself the same question, why do I when it is purely their own ignorance but at the same time I've always been the kind to apologise for peoples ignorance at constantly being called 'a big dyke' and suchlike. I'd look as if to apologise for my dressing the way I'd like to. It's a hard habit to crack but I'll give it a good shot.
Quote from: Judge Yourself on May 25, 2007, 08:36:49 AM
It's funny cause I totally didn't think about it like that. I guess I tend to expect the worst from people and end up angering myself possibly unnecessarily as a result. I guess he could have been checking cause he wasn't sure, I just tend to think of it as him being generally trying to annoy me.
Sure, maybe he was sure you're female and was asking to be a prick and give you a hard time for having an ambiguous gender-presentation. Though at this point, hey, that in itself can be considered a triumph -- whatever it is he saw, it wasn't a female who looks like a girl.
QuoteI guess no matter how confident / sure you are its always a knock to the system. I hope that gets a little better with time.
Y'know, when I was really tiny I was dissapointed to discover that I was female. But when I was five or six years old, people would always ask me, "Are you a boy or a girl?" and when I was five or six years old and I'd just look at them and smile. It was only later that it became a knock to the system, after it had been firmly displayed to me that any "Are you a boy or a girl?" kid wouldn't be allowed in the reindeer games. I wonder now if a lot (though clearly not all) of my adult annoyance with that sort of thing is leftover from that rejection. You and I are both adults now and we can make our own reindeer games and find our own pals to play them -- my friends and my spouse and many members of my family think that my masculine-presentation-female-body thing is way cool. So do quite a number of random people I run across, actually. There were some clients who came into my work today, took one look at me and had that, "Right ON!" look. And hey, I gotta agree, I look cool.
Confidence sure helps. Probably time does, too -- time to work out the fear crap. But I dunno, probably it won't really go away. The other day I was furiously annoyed 'cause somebody told me my shoes are 'cute.' Huh? They're ordinary casual men's shoes, what's 'cute'? And huh? Why am I so annoyed about a compliment?
QuoteThe Thai thing is so interesting, I didn't actually know that till now. I used to find it frustrating that in spanish it was the masculine/feminine table and such. But I dunno I wish i lived there now, sort of ;)
Yeah, I totally wish our language worked like Thai. I betcha if it did, I would be a lot happier and people would treat me more the way they treat men, because I would 'I' myself masculine and implant that in their little brains. Though really, in a lot of ways they do treat me male already, in spite of all the 'she's. People keep asking me to fix stuff, for one.
Speaking of masculine and feminine tables, your assignment this week is to call all people and animals 'it' and refer to all inanimate objects by gendered pronouns. Gender them 'inappropriately' too, to make it even more fun -- call the electric drill 'she' and the refrigerator 'he.'
Language is a funny, funny thing - haha. I accept that bit of homework - though my flatmate might think I'm a little odd, though i think he does already so thats alright. ;) I hate being called and anything i wear called 'cute' too, though I guess its different in the states to be called that than it is in the UK. And as for people asking you to fix stuff - thats awesome, lets just hope all that confidence translates into some damn good DIY ! :P I however, suck at most practical things - unless its lifting stuff - I can manage that haha. I guess I didnt get the 'girl or boy' looks till i cut my hair the first time properly a yr or so ago and that bit of confusion was always better than as you say not being seen as 'a female who looks like a girl' :)
I hate getting sir'ed or mister'ed. Especially when it's got that underpinning vibe of "I've figured you out and am using pronouns to make sure that you realize that I know". Grrrr! >:(
zythyra
I dunno if its to make them look clever or its some kind of egocentric, superiority thing. like bullies somewhat, that they need to make you feel small for themselves to feel big. I guess it's all very playground and very pathetic - but hey whatever floats their boat. I'm a strong believer in Karma...
Hehe. I dunno that I'm good at DYI, but I am a master of the German Engineering (otherwise known as "jerry-rigging," otherwise known as "The Apollo 13 Challenge") and usually manage to do okay. I'm always a bit sad when I don't. Recently I failed to fix an anesthesia machine and was bummed out, not 'cause I figured I ought to know how to fix it, but just 'cause I think I would have gotten 'manliness points' if I had.
I really wish that I could look more male by just cutting my hair in a classic boy's cut. The times I've tried it, I get read as female even more easily, 'causes it reveals my delicate shell-like skull or summat. And it makes me feel all feminine and vulnerable, having the back of my neck exposed like that. So I gave up and let it grow, I'm too lazy to keep cutting it and it makes me feel like Barrett Bonden.
'manliness points' haha thats hilarious - i'm of the opinion, i will never be able to fix things and I'm comfortable with that - my uhm.. unfixability . I suck at all things practical and prefer to take a back seat, amusing myself with the fact people are pretending to know what to do and cant and then i can tell them that i knew all along that this went there (even when i dont pointing out the blatantly obvious can be fun.) Thing with me is, 'my' measure is more knowing where i'm going, when im obviously rather lost, refusing to ask for directions out of sheer pride. Stereotypes eh? haha I don't have a classic cut.. more of what has been called 'emo boy' which, although distressing :P is better than anything with 'girl' in. The thing with getting hair cut shorter is that id possibly accentuate my features even more, now i hide behind an 'emo cut' thats what i get for going to stylist and not a barber :|
Quote from: Amy T. on May 23, 2007, 10:49:44 AM
I hate sir.
The whole he/she thing never bothered me that much. I really hate sir though.
You and I differ [not by much] in this.
"Sir" is barely tolerable and and accepted, given that I am still functioning in male mode [for the moment], but the pronoun 'he' or the use of my current legal name [not for long; I've about reached my limit of tolerance on this. I was going to defer on the change, but I do believe that I will be making that court date, on the 26th], infuriates me.
I just can't stand this anymore. I will be present and accounted for on that court date.
For the first several months of my on the job gender improvement people got names and pronouns mixed up. People are going to make mistakes when they are used to calling you thing and referring to you in one way for so long. It is only second nature and 99$ of the time nobody means anything about it. If someone has not changed their name yet or aren't out at work then how can they expect people to not use the familiar name and pronouns they have always used?
I started my on the job gender improvement before my name was legally changed. Everyone called me Renae but until I had legal documentation, in the HR system I was still Jason. My e-mail was still Jason as well. what we did was create a distribution list with my old name as the title and had it point to my new name. It was nice little work around to the situation and plus i didn't have to go through the process of sending out 100's of e-mails telling people to update their contact information on me.
Legally, I cannot get a letter F on my license until I have a letter from a doctor saying that I have undergone GRS. A person has to love the puritanical ways of Virginia. when police pull up my information it comes back as male. It is a total mindf**k for them and a moment of hilarity for me.
Sooner or later people figure that this isn't just some silly phase and they watch their pronouns and names. It takes time for them to adjust as it does for us. We know who we are so why should it matter if someone either has a slip up or is being as ass? Let them be the one with the insecurity issues, not us.
Doc, in french you don't need to play the game of gendering things, the refrigerator and toaster ARE male, the table and spoon FEMALE, everything's gendered!!! Everything that qualifies or manipulates these objects also reflect the gender of the objects or person. Like I said, its not easy to retrain the brain to switch gender in language in others and even in yourself (you've got to always be conscious of what your saying, at least until it sinks in (which can take awhile, it took me 9 months to be able to leave it on automatic and not make a mistake)
Wonder if there's ever been a french mtf (male to female) refrigerator (what would feminisation look like in that case, a fridge has kinda squarish angles, think I'd need the hacksaw to round the corners and "feminize" it (hehe).
My how my little thread has grown :)
QuoteSooner or later people figure that this isn't just some silly phase and they watch their pronouns and names. It takes time for them to adjust as it does for us. We know who we are so why should it matter if someone either has a slip up or is being as ass? Let them be the one with the insecurity issues, not us.
I think it is more the 'its just a phase' thing and that is fair enough for now I think since it has been a couple of months in reality. When it gets to the stage its been a lot longer, i doubt ill be as forgiving ;) haha You're right, I guess I'm guilty of assuming people are mind readers - but its more the ones who take joy out of 'figuring me out' that ->-bleeped-<- me off.
I really do think its hilarious how there are like male and female tv co-axial leads and languages are even more hilarious for me with there being male and female bits of furniture and countries and boats.. i get lost with most of it..
QuoteWonder if there's ever been a french mtf (male to female) refrigerator (what would feminisation look like in that case, a fridge has kinda squarish angles, think I'd need the hacksaw to round the corners and "feminize" it (hehe).
haha you kill me - thats so funny. Hey at least we can still laugh?
When someone does out you reply to them that you are in fact a transsexual. This tends to really throw them off kilter when you acknowledge yourself as TS. Most will even apologize for being so rude. Kill them with kindness. It works like a charm every time.
I went for my first trip alone to a beauty salon a week after living in my preferred gender role. As I was getting my deep conditioning done i glimpsed around to see if anyone was playing spot the ->-bleeped-<-. I caught my shampoo girl nodding in my direction while in her group co-workers. I did the best thing I could do at that point in time. I gave her a $10 tip as I left. Either she wasn't talking about me and now I am guaranteed great service on my next visit or her concience is going to eat her up and she will feel like crap.
The day after i started living in my preferred gender role, I went to Warped Tour. this is huge outdoor music fesitval that goes on all day long. After a couple of hours what little cuteness factor i had going was gone. The rest of the day was just me and my friends hanging out and having a great time. It is safe to say that being read was the highlight of the day. it happened at least once every five minutes by thousands of people.
When NOFX was getting ready to come on, we went up the front row. My second day living as a woman and I am front row at a punk show. the little girl to my right made the connection right away and told her bf to look. I made sure to look and smile and inform him that she is right, I am a transsexual. they booth got wide-eyed and left it go at that. the best was yet to some though. It dind't take the road crew long to realize there was a ->-bleeped-<- in the f'n front row. So from the far back corner they were playing spot the ->-bleeped-<- and trying to not be obvious when pointing me out to other crew members. I figured I would make it easier on them so I jumped up and down and waved at them.
After the end of the show everyone trys to get the leftover picks and set lists as souveniers. One of the road crew came down and grabbed a set list and brought directly to me. He made sure I got it. My point to all of this is that being yourself and not worrying about other people makes life a lot rewarding. I also got hurt during the NOFX set and had to go to the emergency room. That was a great time too.I will save that one for another time.
Does anyone find that they avoid sirring-maaming anyone else?
I have no memory for names, and now gendered references seem like too blunt a tool to label people, I have to look people in the eye and talk to them...It's done wonders for my social ability and I tend to get larger tips too (;D)
Also, what is it with all the driving tickets everyone here seems to get. Can no transgendered person actually drive properly??
Occupied doing make-up in the mirror for the first time? :)