Does it bother anybody else?
Can you give me an example? Like one person defending someone else?
like somebody makes a racist joke and the actual person of race is not offended but a bystander chooses to cause a stink because of it.
I want to say a lot on this, but I can't find it in myself to post it :P I personally could be "that bystander". I don't find jokes concerning bigotry funny or tolerable.
but that's the thing, it's generally not bigotry. not all racist jokes are inherently racist.
then again, perhaps I'm jus ecessivel lighthearted and think if somebody is actually offended they should fight for themselves. in that case I give my full backing if in fact an offensive statement was uttered and the victimized group was hurt.
but if it's something along the lines of "All asians are good at math," well then I don't really are much. sure, it's a stereotype, but who cares? Kind of like the PR move for speedy Gonzalez in the 80's (or was it the 90's?) Mot people of latin descent (like myself) were just happy to be represented in a comedic format. nobody cared if it was a little offensive.
Okay, I agree with what you are saying partially. Saying "All Asians are smart" is not a negative comment, it's a good thing to be smart( I think 99.9% of us can agree on that), but I think it leaves the door open to negative racism. If you can say "All Asians are smart", then what is stopping you from saying "All black people are dumb and untrustworthy", nothing is stopping you and that is extremely rude to have that mindset. I personally HATE stereotyping and I think we all should; I don't want people to think Jerry Springer when I "come out", I want them to give me a fair chance to explain everything and them to actually get to know me. Sure, we all make initial impressions, but you can be less judgmental if you try. That's my two cents, if that makes any sense. Again, if I'm with good friends or something, I won't make a big deal of it as long as no one gets offended by it and I'll just let it brush by usually.
surprisingly I almost have no judgement. I just like jokes. In fact I think those jokes brought me closer to those ethnic groups that are being "insulted"
but yeah, I agree that stereotyping can get nasty pretty fast.
So people like you aren't the problem, but the fact that there are "some bad apples" ruins it completely in my opinion. Have I made a "racist" joke in my life? Sure I can admit it, but I would feel similar to you and now I don't do it at all.
No, I don't feel that people should be left to stand up for themselves. It can be really hard to stand up to a bully, especially if you are in a vulnerable position. I have no problem at all telling someone they are being racist if they are being racist.
The more I've lived and moved outside of my protective, privileged, etiquette-laced bubble of academia, the lower my tolerance for people treating other people like crap. A couple years ago, I had a cabdriver tell me that he didn't like the area he lived in much anymore because it was getting rather "dark" with a knowing smirk. I am still mad at myself for not making a scene. But back then I was still recently transitioned and shy and my mum was there and didn't say anything and... Excuses. Today I'd make a scene. I'm done with tolerating peoples' vileness.
I think you do have to make a judgement call. I think there are ways to politely and kindly and privately correct someone's behaviour if you feel they weren't actually TRYING to be a horrible person. I think there are situations where terrible, offensive jokes can be appropriate. Because there is a trust level there that the person doesn't mean it, and that anyone can speak out if they are bothered or if it goes too far. My best friend is disabled and I'm queer and trans. And we say horrible things to each other. But that is different. Obvs. It's a question of context and of the meaning behind the words and the trust in that relationship.
In casual relationships? In work places? In taxi cabs for chrissake? No. No. No tolerating that stuff. Tolerating that stuff is a way of saying "it's okay to be a bigot." And it's not okay. It's never okay.
And it's fine if bigots think I am a bitch. I am entirely okay with that. Humans are NASTY, man. And I'm sick of pretending like I need to be nice to everyone. I don't. You break the contract of civility and I'm not bound by those rules either.
I knew I wouldn't be the only one to consider ranting over this haha :P
Well I have a sense of humor for some off-color jokes, but if for example you said that I can't be offended by something that's flat out racist to blacks because I'm asian, that doesn't sit right with me. I can be offended because racism in general is just bad. I wouldn't want it to happen to me.
But jokes are just jokes, lol
For me, there is a difference in saying something racist/sexist and actually being racist/sexist. I mean a joke is a joke. It's not supposed to be factual, nobody is supposed to believe in it. In that regard I don't believe people have the right to be offended for someone else. They might not find something funny or find it distasteful but they are not the ones in the position to be offended. They are not the ones to decide what offends someone else.
This is different from say, attacking someone for their race or discriminating against someone because of the colour of their skin. That goes beyond the realms of being offensive and into being flat out wrong where it should never be tolerated by anyone.
Quote from: tomthom on March 03, 2013, 03:10:40 AM
but that's the thing, it's generally not bigotry. not all racist jokes are inherently racist.
then again, perhaps I'm jus ecessivel lighthearted and think if somebody is actually offended they should fight for themselves. in that case I give my full backing if in fact an offensive statement was uttered and the victimized group was hurt.
but if it's something along the lines of "All asians are good at math," well then I don't really are much. sure, it's a stereotype, but who cares? Kind of like the PR move for speedy Gonzalez in the 80's (or was it the 90's?) Mot people of latin descent (like myself) were just happy to be represented in a comedic format. nobody cared if it was a little offensive.
Not everyone is able to fight for themselves, for any number of reasons.
Also, telling jokes that others *will* find offensive (such as racist/sexist/homophobic jokes) creates an atmosphere of hostility and discomfort. Knowing that people are allowed to tell offensive/degrading jokes, makes everyone think "I hope it's not me he's going to joke about next time..."
Quote from: Adelkhf on March 03, 2013, 10:41:26 AM
For me, there is a difference in saying something racist/sexist and actually being racist/sexist. I mean a joke is a joke. It's not supposed to be factual, nobody is supposed to believe in it. In that regard I don't believe people have the right to be offended for someone else. They might not find something funny or find it distasteful but they are not the ones in the position to be offended. They are not the ones to decide what offends someone else.
This is different from say, attacking someone for their race or discriminating against someone because of the colour of their skin. That goes beyond the realms of being offensive and into being flat out wrong where it should never be tolerated by anyone.
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Quote from: tomthom on March 03, 2013, 02:18:55 AM
Does it bother anybody else?
Doesn't bother me a bit.
I'd rather see indignation in error, than willfully-silent acquiescence.
I do get offended for other people, but not about jokes since I got very dark humor anyway.
But it's different with serious things, for example here in my country the debate on gay marriage and adoption is in full swing right now, and when there are people saying "If we legalize that, then everybody who wants to marry a child or his sister or a turtle can do that too" or other bull, then i get offended, even though I'm not gay.
But if someone who I know as a decent person makes a crude joke, then I can laugh about that.
Edited for profanity.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on March 03, 2013, 10:51:24 AM
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What a well thought out and convincing argument ::)
I agree. Again, I stress that if te offe des party is actually being hurt (like gay rights) ten I will fight to the death for them. But sometimes things are just in good fun.
Yes and no. If someone is getting punched in the face and is scared to fight back, I'll step in. :P
However, I really don't like it when people are too politically correct. People laugh at racist jokes not in a "it's funny because it's true" sense, but because they see how ridiculous and stupid the typecasting is. People acknowledge that racist jokes are stereotypes, which is why people call them jokes.
Also, if someone makes a racist joke, let's say a black joke, and all of the black people are fine with it, then intervening just makes you a party pooper. If someone says that a situation is fine and means it, then just leave the situation alone. ::)
I'm a nurse and as a general rule we have a fairly darker sense of hour than most people but I really can't stand racist jokes.
Stereotypes exist in all levels of our lives and there isn't a lot we can do about that, we all do it no matter how much we try, its just generally how our brains work and process information (ie. thats a BMW, must have cost a lot of money, therefore the person driving must have money) but it doesn't make it right or ok.
I know that sexism isn't quite racism but they stem from the same things and if you give people an inch and they will take a mile.
I don't know how many times at work I've had to tell off men because they have made a comment at one of my colleagues, little "innocent" comments such as "Who was that sweet little thing here this morning?", I "politely" (and I say that because I'm smiling through my teeth and want to hit them) remind them that they're a professional colleague of mine and it is not at all appropriate to speak about them like that. I also remind them that we control their pain relief and make sure that they actually get their food given to them hahahahahaha!
Moral of the story, Dont mess with nurses!
Only joking!
Things can start as innocent comments but they don't necessarily get taken that way and it isn't up to the person who said it to say that it's not offensive, it is up to how whomever hears it takes it. You can say something that you believe is in no way offensive but if someone takes offense all you can do is say that it wasn't meant to be taken that way.
I also agree that some people can be a little oversensitive to some things but that is only my opinion and they would likely disagree with me. That will probably make me offended. hahaha Circle of life!
Quote from: cynths on March 04, 2013, 05:47:18 PM
I also remind them that we control their pain relief and make sure that they actually get their food given to them hahahahahaha!
Moral of the story, Dont mess with nurses!
Only joking!
We can't make jokes about stereotypes and laugh at their stupidity, but you can make jokes about leaving people in pain and hunger. Totally fair... ::) :P ZING!!!
Quote from: cynths on March 04, 2013, 05:47:18 PM
I also agree that some people can be a little oversensitive to some things but that is only my opinion and they would likely disagree with me. That will probably make me offended. hahaha Circle of life!
Genius! :laugh:
As much as I try not to be upset, bigoted jokes do bother me, even if I'm not the intended target. For one thing, I have no desire to associate with bigots. I've encountered far too many people who use the fact that their vitriol is in the form of a "joke" as either a cover or an excuse for its vileness. I don't think it's political correctness to be repulsed by thinly-veiled bullying, but basic human decency. That I can empathize with the targets precludes me from finding said "jokes" funny. That being said, there is a difference between mocking the absurdity of a stereotype and earnestly using stereotypes to mock. The former is ok, the latter is not. Dark humor is also something different (and I have a dark sense of humor) from bigoted jokes.
Alas, I am guilty of not correcting offenders nearly as much as I should. My reaction tends to be facepalm followed by avoiding/disassociating from them rather than calling them out on it. If it's someone I know does it, I may say "dude, not cool," but with strangers I usually just walk away. As much as society would benefit from censuring its predators, I seldom do it myself. For one, there is that fear that if I speak up, I'll be next (as Beth Andrea mentioned), but also the fact that some idiots just aren't worth one's time. I just don't need the stress.
I'm reminded of some white people who like to use the N-word as a joke when no black people are around, and that does offend me. Yet they always say that it shouldn't.
I guess it's up to an individual to decide what's offensive for themselves. I'd say it's best to not be oversensitive, though. If you get offended at every little issue, you will be frustrated for your entire life. Heck, do I, an atheist, get offended when people who know that I'm an atheist say "bless you?" No, because I know they don't mean anything bad by it. Thus, if people can't make racist jokes, then stop saying "bless you" to anyone who is not part of your religion. :P
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on March 04, 2013, 05:55:53 PM
I'm reminded of some white people who like to use the N-word as a joke when no black people are around, and that does offend me. Yet they always say that it shouldn't.
Do you get offended if people call white people "crackers"? Just curious because it's essentially the same thing yet it's perceived as acceptable towards white people.
Quote from: EmmaS on March 04, 2013, 06:16:15 PM
Do you get offended if people call white people "crackers"? Just curious because it's essentially the same thing yet it's perceived as acceptable towards white people.
A little but not as much. Essentially it's the same thing, however I don't know any white people who find it too offensive either. How do you feel about it?
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on March 04, 2013, 06:41:18 PM
Quote from: EmmaS on March 04, 2013, 06:16:15 PM
Do you get offended if people call white people "crackers"? Just curious because it's essentially the same thing yet it's perceived as acceptable towards white people.
A little but not as much. Essentially it's the same thing, however I don't know any white people who find it too offensive either. How do you feel about it?
I don't personally find it offensive. But I don't see it as the same. Maybe a person of another race may use it to show hostility to whites or even just as joke - but I don't think it's the same as other racial slurs. There's a lot more power and context behind words used for other races than any that could be used for white folk.
and that's why plenty of other ethnicities hate whites. That kind of thinking that they don't have equally offensive terms for us is incredibly ethnocentric.
Well, to be fair, the n-word and other racial slurs represent a history of kidnapping, slavery, treachery, murder, rape, and generations of discrimination. Cracker has nothing on that.
I don't have anything against white people, but in this case, y'all have to get real.
Quote from: tomthom on March 04, 2013, 09:11:06 PM
and that's why plenty of other ethnicities hate whites. That kind of thinking that they don't have equally offensive terms for us is incredibly ethnocentric.
Well, I don't mean to offend. It's just like Diana said, there's really no oppression equivalent. Kind of like while I as a man find misandry damaging and hurtful, it's simply not the same as sexism against women.
the thing is not what it means to us, but what it means to them. that's my point.
And yes misandry sucks and should be addressed just as fervently as misogyny. They both feed eachother.
We're not saying that it's not bad. It's just that the term "cracker" doesn't deserve anywhere near the same offense. Sorry, but it's just not the same.
Bigotry in any form is ugly imo
Once again, it's not okay, but it's just not the same for a black person to be called the n-word and whites to be called the c-word. The n-word just cuts deeper.
well let's just drop the c and n word. yes I'm going to treat both of them with initials.
yes, I agree. it has more of a past. now moving on because that issue won't be settled in our lifetime sadly.
I think we did settle it. Bigotry's never okay, but N-word > C-word. What's left to settle? ???
Anywho, I don't think that getting worked up over another person's problems is productive. If you get mad every time someone gives another person a hard time, you're going to have some really high blood pressure. :P
Quote from: DianaP on March 04, 2013, 05:06:08 PM
Also, if someone makes a racist joke, let's say a black joke, and all of the black people are fine with it, then intervening just makes you a party pooper. If someone says that a situation is fine and means it, then just leave the situation alone. ::)
This is interesting. An acquaintance of mine said she was in a situation where a joke was made among some people she was with--it was a joke about race, and she didn't belong to that race, but most of the other people did. She laughed along with them and apparently got some cold responses. It was okay for them to laugh but not okay for her! I guess it was like using the n word or something. But I have this story secondhand...I wasn't there.
It might have been just as bad if she'd gotten all huffy and racially sensitive. Tough situation to be in...I guess the best course is to just have no real reaction. I wonder how often situations like that one happen?
No-one's bigotry is more or less insulting, it is still bigotry regardless of which direction it flows
Quote from: DianaP on March 04, 2013, 09:16:59 PM
Well, to be fair, the n-word and other racial slurs represent a history of kidnapping, slavery, treachery, murder, rape, and generations of discrimination. Cracker has nothing on that.
I don't have anything against white people, but in this case, y'all have to get real.
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on March 04, 2013, 08:16:57 PM
A little but not as much. Essentially it's the same thing, however I don't know any white people who find it too offensive either. How do you feel about it?
I don't personally find it offensive. But I don't see it as the same. Maybe a person of another race may use it to show hostility to whites or even just as joke - but I don't think it's the same as other racial slurs. There's a lot more power and context behind words used for other races than any that could be used for white folk.
That's more along the lines of what I was thinking. They sound like they're suppose to be the same I guess? But they're not.
When I hear the "cr-word", it just sounds lame. With other races there are several other offensive terms besides the "n-word" or the "ch-word" but which are still directed towards those races, that just don't have the same impact as those big ones do.
Okay friends :police:
That's enough racist crap for now, topic locked
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