This has been upsetting for a while, when lots of other TS people say that passing isn't important and there are other more important things to transition. What exactly is so important besides passing? Why wouldn't passing be the only thing about transition? I just don't get it... If somebody is in a state where passing doesn't matter, they'll just automatically think like that. If they aren't you shouldn't try to convince them into thinking like that.
If I'm not seen as female by others, as cis, then I that's a failed transition to me, I gained absolutely nothing from it. Any changes HRT could do for me emotionally wouldn't change a thing.
The point with transitioning is to be perceived by others as female, not by oneself (I think you should already feel that way to begin with). I do want to be included in society, I want to be able to be social. I can't do that, because I look male and is perceived by others as male. I want to live in the same world as others, not in my own little world.
While I can certainly understand your point of view, I can just as easily understand the point of view of the folks you describe as being unconcerned with passing.
I'm sure that there are many reasons why some folks might not put the highest priority on being able to pass - and I'm sure that those reasons might be centered on realistic expectations.
You might look at it this way, also... not everyone feels the need for a Porsche, some folks might reckon that an old truck will reach the same destination (sans valet).
Take care - Sadie
Transition doesn't have to be about "looking cis", though. Sometimes it's just about finding a way to not be miserable. Improving quality of life and all that.
I mean, I pass well enough and I'm extremely grateful for that; mostly because of safety concerns. Being visibly trans is just plain dangerous. I know a few trans women who aren't that concerned about passing and frankly I respect that a lot, even if I worry for what could happen to them.
I really hate the term. "Passing" as if being visibly trans is a failure. It's also such a ridiculous expectation to put on trans people. I mean trans youth with enough problems on their minds being told that to be successful and safe they have to NOT look like what they are? Really? For some of us that's relatively easy - I got ma'amed as soon as I got a haircut and plucked my eyebrows. For others it's just not that feasible - dumb genetics. It's completely unfair to put this burden on trans people instead of just expecting cis people to accept us.
TLDR; People transition with wildly varying goals
The point is to be yourself. Passing is a plus, not the point.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on March 09, 2013, 10:23:57 AM
The point is to be yourself. Passing is a plus, not the point.
This single sentence says it all!
Passing is something to work toward although it may not always be feasible for everyone, and I suppose because of that they, as well as myself, sometimes makes light of it rather than just breaking down and crying.
There's no such thing as a "failed transition."
We are transitioning not for the sake of other people (i.e., whether we "pass" or not), but for ourselves.
Some of us can pass without even trying...others have to try and they might or might not...and there are some who simply will not "pass", no matter what. Yet, they are happy, because their goal was to be a woman or man.
They have achieved that goal...so they did not "fail." Yes, all of us would LIKE to pass, but perhaps instead of damning (sp?), perhaps you might have a "there, but for the grace of god, go I" thought process.
Do I want to pass yes! But I would place more importance on how you feel about who you are. I don't pass right now. But that does not stop me from being myself nor will it ever.
I fin it very important. I'm fine with me, but I want people to immediately know the me that I perceive. I want to be seen Asa woman because that's how I feel inside, and I don't want to go through some long lecture with them about ring trans or anything like that to fully et my point and stance as a human being across. That and I want to be pretty. I want to flirt effortlessly. I want to have days here I can really e one of the girls, in makeup or out of it.
I'm the sort of person that looks andro and I will always be "in between" for the rest of my life. It's just the way it is. Most of the time I get the usual "ma'am" and "miss". But sometimes I hear people say "is that a girl or a guy?" I had one rare occurrence where a teenage girl said something about "a guy going in the woman's restroom". Nothing ever came of this, though, as far as any authorities getting involved and her friends that with her actually told her to shut up so, whatever. I just rolled my eyes and went on my way.
Sure, if I had money I would have some mild FFS done but I don't have the cash for that. I am who I am and if other people can't deal with it they can kiss 1% of my bum.
Transition IS about finding yourself. It's not what it's ALL about but that is the first step. Transition is ALL about being yourself. Some can't pass, but everybody can be themselves. Just because you don't pass doesn't mean you're a failure, but if you can't be yourself then you lose one of lifes' biggest battles.
I know how it's important to many people and even necessary to some, but I also can understand that not only is it impossible for others but how people would just rather live their lives than to worry about their looks 24/7.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on March 09, 2013, 10:43:00 AM
I know how it's important to many people and even necessary to some, but I also can understand that not only is it impossible for others but how people would just rather live their lives than to worry about their looks 24/7.
Yeah, worrying about ANYTHING in excess WILL completely screw you up. I found this out over the last several months dealing with (and still dealing with) various non-trans related medical issues.
Just because people can see through the makeup doesn't mean they're going to treat you as if you're male. They're not going to treat you less than a girl, necessarily, either. Nobody in my life who knows me treats me like a guy, not even my mom, my sister, and my brother who have known me as male for 29 years. People treat you how you let them.
As far as if you wanted to be yourself you'd just end up being seen as gay... well then maybe yourself IS male. Maybe it's not your looks, it's your personality.
lol... keep thinking that and see where that gets you.
Most women aren't that exclusive. Also, if you feel bad about not being able to be in that situation, go home and shower. Problem solved.
Quote from: Bella on March 09, 2013, 11:05:16 AM
These people would probably react similarly to cis-men and women doing stuff that was abnormal for their birth sex.
Just a side note: I believe that while a lot of gender roles are socially constructed, I truly feel there are biological differences in male and female behaviour patterns, which is why these roles work for so many people.
That part I do believe. If you aren't feminine, many people WILL shrug you off like you're weird, but I think that's because you wont fit into the gender norm and not because you're trans.
EDIT: Not saying it's right, just reality. I still stand by my belief that transition IS about being yourself and not about looking a certain way.
It's clear that different people mean different things by "passing", and place different importance on it (whatever it is to each of them) and see it as important in different ways and for different reasons. So I think it's reasonable to expect people to see it differently from you. I'm against others telling you how important (or not important) it should be to you, but that works both ways - none of us should be legislating on each others' experience or path of transition, though it's okay to ask questions, so long as they don't have condemnation built into them.
Personally, I consider "passing" to be the thing I spent nearly 50 years doing, back when I was trying to convince everyone I was a man - and I'm done with that, I'll just be myself now. But I'm aware that I am privileged to live in a country where being trans has legal protection, and in a part of that country where people for the most part will simply accept me unquestioningly (or so it seems, so far). I look like the kind of woman I've always wanted to look like (although I still suffer from Persistent Penis Syndrome, until later this year - and would of course prefer to be in my 20's and svelte and all the rest of it, but we make do).
So much of it depends on what kind of woman you are (since we're talking about MTF transition here), and what's involved in looking the way you want to look, want to be seen. So many variables.
So what I take away from this topic is that there is both personal transition and public transition, both perfectly valid and for the most part intertwined, but diverging on many issues as well.
giving my 2 cents, passing is sure alot more easy, and less dangerous and frustrating. no doubts
however its not the most important point point in life,
even when not passing can be hard and very frustrating, being yourself and having that accept from yourself as well as your friends and other suporters is the most important. you or they wouldnt not care of your look but just see you who you are. I lived alot of of times with this, when I didnt pass. sure I got into more troubles but around my friends I would be myself and accepted male. not passing isnt the same as not being viewed as a man or a woman.
Obsession & concern with passing, I've seen it bring more pain than joy which is why I'm meh about it. I could obsess about all the things about my appearance that I feel betray my male past, but I don't because doing so would make me unhappy. I've seen the goal of passing become this never ending list of, "If I get this fixed I'll be happy" and I have no interest in doing that. I'd rather live.
Transition, for me, was and is about becoming a better person. I also don't know what all cisfolk think about trans people when they clock us so I will not cast aspersions about them by assuming all won't understand me as a woman. I'd rather give each individual I meet a chance to be a winner knowing full well I'll meet some true losers.
By giving cispeople the benefit of the doubt I then don't feel like I'm under constant judgement or attack. That helps keep me happy and feeling secure in my womanhood.
I have to agree with everyone its not everything but for some it seems to be the main focus :(
Quote from: Padma on March 09, 2013, 11:12:30 AM
Persistent Penis Syndrome
I think we call nuggets like this one "knee slappers". Thanks for the laugh!
Quote from: Misato33 on March 09, 2013, 12:07:19 PM
I think we call nuggets like this one "knee slappers". Thanks for the laugh!
You're welcome :) - I'm trying to see if it'll catch on... I actually came up with it recently when I was trying to decide how to let the hospital I was about to be seen by know what to expect in terms of anatomy, and ended up telling them to expect "a woman with persistent male genitalia" - they were amused and very respectful of me. I now use the above in less formal situations.
Quote from: Bella on March 09, 2013, 12:05:37 PM
Hm, I disagree. It's typically an obsession with beauty, not passing, that develops.
Also, my goal was to be able to not be a transsexual anymore. I used to think that I always had to be a transsexual, but through specialist therapy I came to recognize that I didn't have to. Now I live as just another woman, which is what I wanted. It doesn't have to be a lifelong thing.
i can see your point. its kind of the cross roads im at now. just wanting to be a woman
and bout that comment on the people who do truly look make but try to present as female. i have noticed that they tend to get mis treated and even harassed more. there was a few woman i knew of that live in not so open areas in florida like Levy county and they git spit at, had a beer bottle tossed at them and was even attacked before. in their cases i so wish they could pass so they would not have to endure that kind of awful and scary behavior. with the exception of cases like theirs i dont think passing should be everything though
Well...depends on...I pass fine and I'm very pleased about that. No social problems.
BUT that doesn't mean people in general sense I'm a MTF....not always instantly, but surely after a while.
I don't care if people know or sense I'm MTF, I'm fine with that, no secrets, no cramped daily life.
One of my MTF friends is post op...she's huge, she's tall, she has a gruff masculine face and hands, she moves like a quarterback AND realises and knows very well that no matter what she does or undertakes...she won't be seen a a woman, ever no matter what.
She accepted herself and her situation and doesn't have problems with her masculine looks and sizes.
Another of my MTF friends is post op and breath taking, stunningly beautiful and feminine.
Of course her stunning beauty attracts a lot of attention and especially men sense she's a MTF.
BUT because she's so beautiful people in general treat her very nice, very kind, with egards.
But no 100% passing there either.
I think "not passing" is too broad of a term for the sake of this discussion. I see two distinct not passing camps. One is the the FTW, If I say I feel like a woman then it is your problem if you cannot see me as one (even though I seemingly make absolutely no effort to). Then there is the I am glad to finally be happy in my skin camp. Those that do try to pass, try to conform to societies norms, yet know they really don't. Nevertheless they are finally happy with themselves realising all that.
There is a member of my TG group my heart absolutely goes out to. This poor soul, much like me tried their best to live up to their birth role. But now after realizing the truth about himself feels that there is no point to his life. No way can he ever pass. No way can he have a chance to grab the brass ring of happiness, much less joy. Just doomed to a miserable tortured existence. Unless, of course, he drinks himself to death, or use a more direct method.
So one can argue we place too much emphasis on passing as being critical for sucess. A position I well understand having twice in my 20's stopped my experiments on transitioning. Due in large part to me not wanting to voluntarily go into a life being a target of ridicule after barely escaping one that was. At an ugly 6ft tall, big frog hands, super extra large feet, super-sized super orbital ridges, deep voice, and balding I was far from an ideal candidate for transition.
It takes a lot of work and growth to get to the point where you finally reach a place where you allow yourself to put your own happiness above someone elses or the rest of societies. It may not be a perfect or ideal life, but neither was the one you were leading. It's every individual's perogative to do that cost-benifit analysis.
I put myself sort of into the "I know I ultimately don't.. but" camp. I finally found happiness and joy in my life. Happy being me. Finally glad to be part of the body I inhabit. In an area of 5'4"250 lb women I know I stand out at 6ft and 150 lbs. I always try to present as unabiguously female as possible. No doubt it helps.
Quote from: Bella on March 09, 2013, 12:30:48 PM
@Dahlia
I'm sorry that people seem to "sense" your transsexuality, but I've never experienced this myself. I have, however, never lived as a guy, so that might have had an affect. I had nothing to "relearn". Regardless, I don't agree with this perception of yours. Just because people always seem to sense that *you* are trans, doesn't mean it's like that with everyone.
QuoteI'm sorry that people seem to "sense" your transsexuality
No reason to feel sorry about that...thanks. I'm perfectly fine with my self, my situation, my flawless work etcetc.
I too never lived as a guy....even if I had wanted too I would never have succeeded. I was way too feminine looking and acting.
My stunningly beautiful MTF friend also never lived as a guy, also way too feminine looking and acting before.
MTF always have a 'transdar' and most people here in Holland too.....it's not an uncommon thing anymore.
People just know and sense.
On the other hand I have to admit no one ever asked me whether I am a MTF.
I don't know about everyone else, and I can understand lot's or reasons why passing wouldn't/shouldn't be important. But for me, it is, even though it seems impossible.
Quote from: Bella on March 09, 2013, 01:01:44 PM
@Dahlia
Well if you're so sure they sense it, you must be putting out something. Again, it is silly to assume that because that's how it is with you, that's how it is with everyone, but I see why you'd prefer to believe that :)
I know many, many mtf who are able to fool themselves into 'stealth'...and simply don't or won't notice other people's body language, subtle facial expressions etcetc.
They simple don't realise people in general are too respectful to ask a MTF if she's MTF etc....in the Western World that is.
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