Kia Ora,
For example...Would all their holy books have to be 'doctored' to accommodate this ?
Or would the preachers just do what they normally do, which is, be very 'selective' when reading and interpreting scriptures ?
What would they need to change [without corrupting the teachings-which they say are the foundations of their faith] for them to 'full embrace' the LGBTQ community?
Metta Zenda :)
They all need for their god to come down here, and kick their ever-lovin' @$$.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on March 10, 2013, 01:42:42 PM
They all need for their god to come down here, and kick their ever-lovin' @$$.
Kia Ora Beth Andrea,
Sadly, this would mean 'never' ...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote
Or would the preachers just do what they normally do, which is, be very 'selective' when reading and interpreting scriptures ?
I've heard of various Christian churches getting together and aligning their various teachings with other, non-Christian, religions..."Ecumenical" I think it's called. That's probably where things are going, imho.
There will always be people who hate others...whether it's Christians who hate LGBTQ, or LGBTQ who hate Christians, etc. There's not much we, as humans, can do to completely eliminate hate, and honestly we probably don't want to do that. We can and should work to minimize it as much as possible...but the fact is "diversity" means that there are all sorts of people out there...and not all of them do things that "we" might approve of.
Such is the human condition.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on March 10, 2013, 01:58:06 PM
I've heard of various Christian churches getting together and aligning their various teachings with other, non-Christian, religions..."Ecumenical" I think it's called. That's probably where things are going, imho.
There will always be people who hate others...whether it's Christians who hate LGBTQ, or LGBTQ who hate Christians, etc. There's not much we, as humans, can do to completely eliminate hate, and honestly we probably don't want to do that. We can and should work to minimize it as much as possible...but the fact is "diversity" means that there are all sorts of people out there...and not all of them do things that "we" might approve of.
Such is the human condition.
Kia Ora Beth,
That's interesting...I guess what come to mind for myself is, will they have to "change" their god in some way, in order to accommodate
the LGBTQ...
Metta Zenda :)
Liberal Judaism does not have much of a problem with LGBTQ. My old rabbi (a well-known one) always placed more importance in identity and culture than belief in god. He was totally accepting of me.
Unfortunately I don't ever foresee a complete acceptance of the LGBT community in. The whole of christian faiths...at least not in my lifetime. It's really disheartening for me to see people turned away from a house of God just because they're being themselves. Why is it that for the most part the christian community sees the LGBT community as a group that needs to be prayed for and for there 'coming back to the Lord'. I don't think the Lord would be any less in my heart (personally) whether I was straight, gay or trans. I hope that there will be change soon, and in my lifetime. That would gladden my heart to no end, but I'm not expecting it:(
Quote from: Kuan Yin on March 10, 2013, 04:54:51 PM
Kia Ora Beth,
That's interesting...I guess what come to mind for myself is, will they have to "change" their god in some way, in order to accommodate
the LGBTQ...
Metta Zenda :)
Well, that's the point. They do not
need to accommodate the LGBTQ (or anyone, for that matter). "We don't want their kind here" is the fundamental element of ALL groups, even anarchists. If you are "in" a group, then by definition there are those who are "out" of the group.
There's no reason to accept or accommodate any individual or group, within another group, unless there is sizable money involved. And even that will cause a split in the original group--some will accept the new rules, others will not, and will form their own group (or expell the ones who want to be inclusive).
As an atheist I don't want to be accepted by theists. They don't have the power to deny me anything.
Quote from: tomthom on March 10, 2013, 05:28:35 PM
As an atheist I don't want to be accepted by theists. They don't have the power to deny me anything.
Kia Ora Tomthom,
That's true, acceptance by the religions will not have any bearing upon the atheists, but I guess in places like the US where religion does pull some strings when it comes to making policies, acceptance by the theists could be very beneficial for US trans-people in the long run...
Metta Zenda :)
I believe that they simply need to turn to the teachings of Christ, which should be a no-brainer - given that they're Christians.
There also needs to be a less antagonistic approach toward them. Yes... I know - There's always the ol' Well - They did it first!; but trading barbs will never result in understanding.
If they can't reach out to us, p'haps we can reach out to them.
With regards to reindoctrination, let's start with a fact that not all Christian denominations are anti-LGBTQ. There are two lesbian pastors at my church, and two of the seminary interns are gay (1 each male & female). When I gave a testimony at my church about being trans (http://doubleinvert.wordpress.com/2012/01/29/beyond-boundaries/), I got a standing ovation from the approximately 200 persons there.
Or, is the United Church of Christ (http://www.ucc.org/) not considered to be part of a mainstream religion?
How about Soto Zen Buddhism? I've gained complete acceptance there too. Wicca? Asatru? Yep, got there acceptance too.
Religious acceptance of LGBTQ persons is not as rare as the news media would suggest.
Oh, and I forgot to add that there are several same-sex couples, some with children, at my church too. And, I'm not the only trans person there.
And let's not dismiss the Unitarian Universalists (http://www.uua.org/). They're a mainstream religious tradition too.
Not to take from your experiences, Constance - because I think that they are wonderful, and it sounds like a fantastic church... but I think that being in San Fransisco is a bit of a qualifier.
I live in West Texas, for instance - and I have a difficult time seeing that level of acceptance here (though I could probably leave the church alive, at least - folks are mostly friendly enough 8)).
Actually, San Mateo is not nearly as liberal as San Francisco. But I think I follow your meaning.
Remember that the greater SF Bay Area is not a haven. SF isn't really, either. Part of SF are, yes, but also Gwen Araujo was murdered here in the greater SF Bay Area.
Well... I'm not particularly active in church, but I do have a keen interest in them.
I'm actually pretty fortunate that my town is fairly progressive (but it is so only relative to the region... and by stretching the definition of "progressive" a fair ways).
I just don't see the point of getting them to be on our side. I figure my generation, with almost none of my personal peers (about 800 or so spread over a wide geographic region, encompassing almost all of the US) being religious(maybe 2% actually practice, 20% tentatively believe, the rest are atheists), will wrap this up in time without the need for religion's support and acceptance.
good riddance to it anyway. It's caused enough harm.
Quote from: tomthom on March 10, 2013, 09:51:14 PM
I just don't see the point of getting them to be on our side. I figure my generation, with almost none of my personal peers (about 800 or so spread over a wide geographic region, encompassing almost all of the US) being religious(maybe 2% actually practice, 20% tentatively believe, the rest are atheists), will wrap this up in time without the need for religion's support and acceptance.
I have thought this same thing, at times - and wish it to be true. I am skeptical that the demographic you suggest is representational at large, but that may be because I am not often around younger folks.
I s'pose time will tell...
Kia Ora All,
Well I guess I should have added "Organised" mainstream 'Organised'-Religion, to stop confusion...Plus the thread is about all Organised-Religions not just Christianity, however Christianity does seem to be the main culprit when it comes to restricting LGBTQ rights...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: tomthom on March 10, 2013, 09:51:14 PM
good riddance to it anyway. It's caused enough harm.
The pastor who helped keep me from killing myself caused harm? Wow. I'm glad I didn't try turning to this site when I was suicidal.
Your comments are quite likely true of some, but most certainly not all, theists.
Quote from: Constance on March 10, 2013, 10:14:48 PM
The pastor who helped keep me from killing myself caused harm? Wow. I'm glad I didn't try turning to this site when I was suicidal.
Your comments are quite likely true of some, but most certainly not all, theists.
I apologize. I have a past with it the clouds me from being objective about it's positives as well.
Quote from: tomthom on March 10, 2013, 10:22:36 PM
I apologize. I have a past with it the clouds me from being objective about it's positives as well.
Fair enough.
Kia Ora,
The main point I'm trying to make, is for them to fully embrace the LGBTQ community,...drastic restructuring[reorganising "must" take place -a major shift in the mindset of the organised religious hierarchy and the many followers...The position of their god/s must change...But if they do this will it still be the 'same' religion or a new 'age' religion ?
I guess the only option would be for the heads of the various organised religions [like a Pope for example] to say their god/s has spoken to him and from now on LGBTQ people are no longer sinners and should be embraced...
What the religious trans-people who belong to an organised religion need for this to happen is a "Miracle" [and I'm not trying to be facetious when I say this] ...
Metta Zenda :)
The bottom line is there are a minority of religious institutions that are accepting of LBGT. I think it's great that they exist. There are many of us who wish to be able to worship as we are just like there are those who do not prescribe to religion at all. To each their own I say.
For most of the current day religions to embrace LBGTQ people, it will be necessary to get over the idea that quantity of offspring is not what their deities have commanded, but rather quality of life among the other people in their communities. For all too many religions, the number of children you procreate determines your status in heaven unless you are a shaman, but they will be on staff up there running things then too. Humans are on earth to populate it with more humans, world with out end, and that is their only purpose and don't do anything to get in the way. Yes, some scriptures do in fact describe a beautiful and enriching world, but by the time it gets out of the clergy mouths, it reverts back to procreation.
I've read this whole thread with great interest. Very good thoughts and comments here.
I was born and raised in a very strict Pentecostal home and church... No TV, no makeup, short hair on the men, long hair on the women. Women could not wear pants, only long skirts and dresses... The whole gambit of repression.
I really got into it too. I was in music ministry as well as an ordained minister. I fought so hard to just be a man of God because I had been taught that homosexuality and efeminant men were an abomination.
When I was 25 a pastor in our organization came out as gay and my youth pastor and I took over his church.
I preached that man to hell every chance I got but all the while dying inside.
He went on to found an organization called Reconciling Pentecostals International which is an open and affirming organization for people of faith who are also GLBTQ
Long story short, when I came out I was excommunicated and defrocked. I have been to several churches since then, two were Methodist, one was church of Christ, another was non-denominational. I really liked the one Methodist church but one of the members who knew me before I transitioned outed me to the lead pastor and he basically told me I was not welcome there because I would make him look bad.
The others while not exactly being non welcoming just didn't feel right.
Still having a hunger for God and a desire to worship, I looked up the gay pastor I mentioned earlier. Turns out he had started a church only 40 minutes from my home.
I am now the administrative assistant/IT girl and drummer for his home church.
I'd call that pretty accepting. And Pentecostal is pretty main stream :)
Oh yea, we also didn't have to rewrite the doctrine, only realize that God accepts ALL his children and ALL are called... :)
Quote from: The Original Cami on March 11, 2013, 03:21:40 AM
Oh yea, we also didn't have to rewrite the doctrine, only realize that God accepts ALL his children and ALL are called... :)
VERY well said Cami!
Quote from: The Original Cami on March 11, 2013, 03:21:40 AM
Oh yea, we also didn't have to rewrite the doctrine, only realize that God accepts ALL his children and ALL are called... :)
Precisely!
The destruction of arrogance and "holier than thou" attitudes. Just within the normal denominations of Chritianity, each denomination thinks that the other denomonations are wrong. I have had Jahovah's witnesses tell me that Catholics won't go to heaven and the list goes on. I questioned a Baptist preacher once about Native Americans occupying heaven and was told that unless they were saved they couldn't be there. Needless to say it prompted an argument about judging and not judging and questions upon why this particular preacher felt that he was worthy of heaven. This is just plain old arrogance to me.
I don't think the writings need to change but people's perceptions do. Just like with the legend of Sodom and Ghomora and most denomonations believe it was destroyed over homosexuality and such because the people wanted Lot to send the messengers out so they could have their way with them sexually. If I can remember right, the bible doesn't state whether these messengers were male of female specifically, but since we are and have been a patriachal society, it is just assumed that God and the angels are male. I think the "moral" of the story of Sodom and Ghomora is more about a degradation in morals in the way of lying, cheating, stealing, murder and rape.
Quote from: The Original Cami on March 11, 2013, 03:21:40 AM
Oh yea, we also didn't have to rewrite the doctrine, only realize that God accepts ALL his children and ALL are called... :)
Kia Ora Cami,
With the church you attend things sound good, but when it comes to the Christian bible are these ignored by your pastor ?
Leviticus 18:22
Lev 20:13...
Lev 18:1-30...
Lev 18:15-24 ...
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Romans 1:26-28
Exodus 22:19
This is what I'm on about regarding the 'teachings' ..If they are ignored then does your pastor preach true 'Christianity' or a watered down version...
I'm just trying to see how a major shift in mindset could possibly occur which would fully embrace the LGBTQ community and still remain true 'Christianity' ...
Is full embracement really possible ? Or will the old established organised religion have to die out[from natural causes] before true equality is finally realised !
Metta Zenda :)
The way my church approaches these is the Spirit of the Law is more important than the Letter of the Law, with lovingkindness being what's important.
I've heard one theologian after another (Jewish and Christian) dismiss the laws that seem to condemn homosexuality as being more about the proper balance of power. A man cannot be penetrated by another man or equal or lesser stature. But, a man can penetrate a name of lesser stature (younger man, a slave, etc) and that preserves the balance.
Quote from: Kuan Yin on March 11, 2013, 02:50:04 PM
Kia Ora Cami,
With the church you attend things sound good, but when it comes to the Christian bible are these ignored by your pastor ?
Leviticus 18:22
Lev 20:13...
Lev 18:1-30...
Lev 18:15-24 ...
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Romans 1:26-28
Exodus 22:19
This is what I'm on about regarding the 'teachings' ..If they are ignored then does your pastor preach true 'Christianity' or a watered down version...
I'm just trying to see how a major shift in mindset could possibly occur which would fully embrace the LGBTQ community and still remain true 'Christianity' ...
Is full embracement really possible ? Or will the old established organised religion have to die out[from natural causes] before true equality is finally realised !
Metta Zenda :)
All of these passages actually have far different meaning than is usually talked about. Even a couple of researchers that are linked on the Resources Pages have gone and researched this scriputes in orignal languages, and with an eye to the cultures that co-existed with them. The Levitical scriptures deal with an order of Israeli clergymen, and clergy of the competing religions that were around at the time the scripture was written. (The word "man" in them is actually several types of men in the oldes texts loosely "Israelis Clergy Man" and "Other Clergy Man". They more simply translate out as the Isralei Diety saying "I don't want to worshipped the way the other religion worships its diety" citing specific acts of other religion worship. Its nor really about the men, its about the systems of worship which did include acts that are mis-identified with GLBT people today. The same is true of the New Testament scriptures, it refers to rites of competing churhes, some of which may have indetified as Christian at the time Paul was writing.
If Cami's pastor acknowledges these facta about the Bible, then the pastor is truly teaching the real doctrines of Christ, and not the fleeting rantings of Paul to a single group of his disciples. Not a problem at all.
Quote from: Vicky on March 11, 2013, 06:07:12 PM
All of these passages actually have far different meaning than is usually talked about. Even a couple of researchers that are linked on the Resources Pages have gone and researched this scriputes in orignal languages, and with an eye to the cultures that co-existed with them. The Levitical scriptures deal with an order of Israeli clergymen, and clergy of the competing religions that were around at the time the scripture was written. (The word "man" in them is actually several types of men in the oldes texts loosely "Israelis Clergy Man" and "Other Clergy Man". They more simply translate out as the Isralei Diety saying "I don't want to worshipped the way the other religion worships its diety" citing specific acts of other religion worship. Its nor really about the men, its about the systems of worship which did include acts that are mis-identified with GLBT people today. The same is true of the New Testament scriptures, it refers to rites of competing churhes, some of which may have indetified as Christian at the time Paul was writing.
If Cami's pastor acknowledges these facta about the Bible, then the pastor is truly teaching the real doctrines of Christ, and not the fleeting rantings of Paul to a single group of his disciples. Not a problem at all.
Kia Ora Vicky,
Thanks for the info...It's interesting to see how researchers are finding new ways to interpret scriptures-to make them more compatible with the modern world...
It would seem what could happen, is the gradual shift in mindset by small church groups will begin to snowball and before long their approach will become more 'mainstream'...Hence the old established organised religions 'die of natural causes' "Natural Progression" or if you like 'evolution'...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Kuan Yin on March 11, 2013, 07:52:23 PM
Kia Ora Vicky,
Thanks for the info...It's interesting to see how researchers are finding new ways to interpret scriptures-to make them more compatible with the modern world...
It would seem what could happen, is the gradual shift in mindset by small church groups will begin to snowball and before long their approach will become more 'mainstream'...Hence the old established organised religions 'die of natural causes' "Natural Progression" or if you like 'evolution'...
Metta Zenda :)
That would be nice. I've been reading quite a bit of (i hesitate to call it -) political science lately, with an emphasis on the marriage between certain political parties - other than Democratic - and the religious right.
Much of what I've read meshes with what I've observed... it's not very encouraging.
You just need more people in society in who accept the LBGT people.
When a large majority accepts LBGT then there is no point of return for religions and they will have to accept it as well in order to survive.
They will then use different scripture to support a more compassionate view. It's definitely possible but at the same time you'll also need the political climate to change.
Kia Ora,
Thanks for your interesting responses...
Well The Roman Catholic Church has a new head "Pope Francis" ! Will he bring great 'beneficial' changes to the Catholic church ? Or will the same old homo/transphobic rhetoric also flow from his mouth ?
Please Note : The above comment might be about the new Pope, but this thread is not specifically targeting him or his church... Even though he is a powerful man with a lot of clout regarding changing the mindset of Catholic people [about 1.1 billion-that's an awful lot of minds]
In other words it's not a "Pulverise the Pontiff" thread... But he does deserve a mention...
[We can leave the polvering to the media who are already digging into his somewhat sordid past ]...
Metta Zenda :)
This is a little late, but whether he's going to be legitimately awesome probably depends on him ending the exclusion of women from the priesthood. It is an oversimplification, but the issues facing LGBTQs basically boil down to sex roles and sex discrimination: depending on your sex, conservative policy will dictate your gender ("T"), it will limit who you may love/marry according to the person's sex ("LGB"), and it'll further dictate how you may/must express and act on the basis of your sex ("T" and "Q"). The priesthood issue is the most pervasive form of sex discrimination in the Catholic Church, if not also the most retrograde.
I see a simple solution.
Equality for all in law - a matter of legislation.
Religion involves freedom of choice. The law doesn't.
Nobody should have the right to impose their personal beliefs on another.
I think when we start to see the protection of God removed and religious organizations prosecuted for discrimination or incitement to hatred then we will start to see a new wave of tolerance and acceptance in said religious organizations.
Wouldn't that be considered "imposing" your personal beliefs on me?
Quote from: StellaB on March 27, 2013, 02:42:55 PM
Religion involves freedom of choice. The law doesn't.
You might want to reread the first amendment of the US Constitution again.
Quote from: StellaB on March 27, 2013, 02:42:55 PM
I see a simple solution.
Equality for all in law - a matter of legislation.
Religion involves freedom of choice. The law doesn't.
Nobody should have the right to impose their personal beliefs on another.
I think when we start to see the protection of God removed and religious organizations prosecuted for discrimination or incitement to hatred then we will start to see a new wave of tolerance and acceptance in said religious organizations.
I think you will see forced acquiescence rather than tolerance and acceptance. And acceptance really can't be legislated at all, that's beyond just obeying non discrimination and anti-hate laws.
Quote from: StellaB on March 27, 2013, 02:42:55 PM
I see a simple solution.
Equality for all in law - a matter of legislation.
Religion involves freedom of choice. The law doesn't.
Nobody should have the right to impose their personal beliefs on another.
I think when we start to see the protection of God removed and religious organizations prosecuted for discrimination or incitement to hatred then we will start to see a new wave of tolerance and acceptance in said religious organizations.
Kia Ora StellaB,
Are you thinking along the lines of what happened when desegregation was put into place by law...One could argue it was a positive/wholesome form of 'social engineering' which over time gradually changed many white people's attitudes towards the African American...They were forced to conform to what became the 'new' norm...
Perhaps religo-social engineering is the way to go...Who knows....
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 27, 2013, 02:48:41 PM
Wouldn't that be considered "imposing" your personal beliefs on me?
Not really. I don't see sexual orientation or a gender identity as a personal belief.
Quote from: Flan on March 27, 2013, 02:54:37 PM
You might want to reread the first amendment of the US Constitution again.
And what of the civil rights movement? Besides I wasn't aware that the question pertained specifically to the United States of America.
Quote from: couch tater on March 27, 2013, 02:59:09 PM
I think you will see forced acquiescence rather than tolerance and acceptance.
I'm okay with that. If some people of their own free will cannot respect the rights of others then yes, it really does need to be spelled out in legislation if only to set the standards for society.
Otherwise you could end up with a situation like the Taliban.
Quote from: Kuan Yin on March 28, 2013, 12:04:08 AM
Are you thinking along the lines of what happened when desegregation was put into place by law...One could argue it was a positive/wholesome form of 'social engineering' which over time gradually changed many white people's attitudes towards the African American...They were forced to conform to what became the 'new' norm...
Exactly.
I don't think that the answer lies within changing the laws or the religious books or creeds or whatnot.
The answer lies with science for us. For transfolk to be accepted by mainstream Christianity, they would need to be fully gendered. Meaning they'd have to be able to carry the curses (if you call them that) ie ftms would need realistic and functional genitals that could sire children and mtfs would need to have female organs, cycles and be able to carry and give birth to children. Then there would be no need for them to get all butthurt over ->-bleeped-<-...we'd be like them, with the same abilities and able to reproduce, so really, what could be done or said then that would even begin to address their screwy logic?
As far as homosexuality and other such things go...I think science will answer those questions too. Eventually the search for the gay gene will end and the conservatives will have to admit that gays and lesbians are people too, not freaks or aberrations, but real life people. And with that will come a new understanding of human sexuality and relationships. I do think that the more widespread legalized same-sex marriage becomes, the more out in the open those types of relationships are, the more tolerant the Christian community will become of alternative lifestyles. The majority of the serious opposition comes from baby boomers and looney tunes gen xers. Once the baby boomers are gone, who is going to carry the mantle? Pat Robertson can't live forever, can he? (Unless he's a secret robot...I have my suspicions.)
In any case, I think that the US is very slowly headed in a more positive direction. I can't speak for other countries. I am assuming that more liberal countries in other parts of the world are probably further ahead in terms of civil rights and LGBT acceptance and the like.