Well, I have been on HRT for a little over 10 months. I have lost quite a bit of muscle mass and experienced a lot of other positive changes. The only real negative has been gaining about 23 pounds, although some of it is in "good areas" like my butt and a little in my hips. While I have experienced muscle mass loss, I have quite a bit more to go. I am now at a point where I am going to try to excercise (I have not been , really) and watch what I eat to get my weight back under control. I am just wondering if there is any certain diet or program I could go on to help speed up muscle mass loss as well as lose weight in general? Would eating less protein help or does anyone have any ideas that might help in this regard?
Everyone keeps telling me to jog and only work the lower body. Still havent started HRT though so Im not too sure.
Vegetarian with a lil fish and chicken here and there has been working for me so far. Also, making an effort to be only slightly hungry most of the time and never full. So far Ive gone from 205lbs to 179lbs pretty quickly. Oh yeah, and a crap load of water.
.
I'll give you some advice that has worked well for me...
There are two kinds of muscle. The one you don't want is the heavy slow muscle gained from anaerobic exercise... And unless you're doing anything strenuous, you shouldn't gain any of that muscle at all. You want lean muscle...
To put that in perspective, I'm 6'1, and currently 68.5Kg. About 5 months ago, I was somewhere about 90Kg. I lost all of this weight through cutting my alcohol intake, and walking for about 2 hours a day, ( preparing for HRT, which I've already started ). The muscle you put on through walking is the stuff you want. It has very little mass, and burns fat at an incredible rate. Think of a any short to medium long distance female ( or male for that matter ) runner... That's the physique this kind of muscle gives.
And once you're at the point where the fat is gone, you can just manage exercise to balance it all. And obviously, don't over-do it... you don't want to work against what HRT is trying to do. :)
I am considering orchiectomy, actually I've already decided I want it and will most likely go through with it asap. Stopping any hint of extra testosterone sounds like a good idea. Plus the loss of muscle mass is a side effect even for trans women already on HRT.
My pose in my profile picture does a good job of showing the muscle that I've already lost, but there is still quite a bit to go when my arm is contracted. I have lost about 1/2" of circumference from each arm since starting HRT. From the research I have done, it seems that the elimination of T from my body will do very well for helping it move along even more. Muscle mass is a huge one for me, too. My genes gave me really defined muscles with easily visible veins. Presenting as male it would have been great, but I don't like it at all living as myself- as a female.
Quote from: Sammy on March 25, 2013, 04:31:29 AM
Jennygirl
I read recently that orchiectomy should be followed with SRS as soon as possible to avoid extra scars or something like that. The point was that if a significant period of time follows orchiectomy then the surgeon will have less material to work for SRS.
I've definitely found that as well.. if SRS is the plan then one wouldn't want to wait too long because of scrotal shrinking. Scar tissue is not that big of a deal as long as it is performed by a surgeon that specializes with transgender patients and knows the right place to put the incision (in the groin as I understand it?)
I'm not too worried about it because I would like to do SRS in the next 2-3 years, maybe slightly sooner if it feels right at the time. Still, people go longer and have successful SRS after orchi w/o skin grafts. For me the benefits outweigh the cons... lesser amounts of HRT (less cost for me, no insurance), more effective feminization, not ever taking spiro, and various others too.
Apart from walking ( or jogging if that's your taste ), it was recommended to me to do no upper body exercise at all, and even limit carrying things, like shopping. I too have large tri/biceps that I want to shrink to nothing. I'm told that HRT will help to reduce these. Otherwise, the weight loss took a few cm out of them, but that would have mostly just been fat. It's hard to suggest how much ( if any ) muscle was lost over the course of the last 5 months. Still very early days for me on HRT, and we all know it effects everyone differently. Time will tell :)
After 1 year of anti-androgens and a small dose of estrogen, my muscle mass has decreased, but not quite where I want it to be. Muscles on my whole arms have shrunk considerably, even though I would take a bit more. My thighs, though, not quite. But I'm beginning to think if there was a bit less fat there, the muscle might not look as bad. So once I'm full-time and comfortable with showing myself exercising, I think I'll do some aerobic exercise in the lower body. Actually, if I have the money, I could even buy a new DDR game and mat, and ask my sister to send me back the family's Wii.
...Say, is playing Dance Dance Revolution aerobic or anaerobic exercise?
I haven't been doing anything special. I'm vegetarian, which may have helped, who knows, but I'm also eating pretty wrong overall, so I don't know. I'm probably still anemic, for example. I'm taking cyproterone, though, not spiro, and my testosterone is at 0.5 pmol/L, which is in the lower range for women.
In short, not exercising and eating vegetarian might do something, but seeing the state of my thighs, not so sure. I think the main factor is going to be your testosterone levels.
.
Genetics IMHO play the biggest part in this. 3 years on HRT has decreased my my muscle mass and overall weight... But I still have a lot of upper body mass, and arm strength. I still do work out with free weights mostly and a few machines. I still can bench 150 lbs. (down from around 300 many years ago) and can still do a pull up or two if I have to. So you just really have to wait and see. HRT will not automatically make you into a waif thin model and take away all you upper body strength. This is a complete myth... unless you sit around all day on the sofa watching TV and eating junk food, which will drop anyones overall muscle strength and muscle mass.
Dropping protein and carb intake will drop your muscle mass. A vegan diet would work best for this. Although I'm a firm believer in the nutritional value of some animal protein being in everyone's diet, even if it is only fish or chicken. It's hard to make up the protein content most people need when completely removing all animal protein sources.
Dropping protein is counter productive to transition.. and dangerous. We should be eating extra protein, actually, during the initial couple of years on HRT. Hair, skin, and nails are made up mostly of protein, and without that, your skin will look gaunt and unhealthy, and your hair will grow slower and less strong... which is harmful to passing. Not to mention protein helps your immunity, promotes a healthy mind-state, and even aids in breast growth. Since your body is basically changing how skin is made (due to hormonal changes), it's VERY important to make SURE an adequate supply of protein is available.
Your muscles WILL atrophy over time, especially if you don't work them very much - but only if your testosterone is low (my guess is below 45 ng/dl). It took me til about the 1 year mark to be satisfied... but I'm still losing muscle. My forearms and calves are just now starting to feel flabby like any other girls. The only thing I think could use a little lessening is my biceps and triceps (which everybody tells me they look fine), and my upper abs.
I used to be able to do 3 sets of 50 pushups and about 15 pullups, now I can barely do 20 "girl" pushups and not even 1 pullup. I eat LOTS of meat btw, and I'm lean in muscle (which is desirable among women) so I don't think protein is the enemy. Your biggest enemy is testosterone. Keep that low and just give it time... based on genetics you will continue to lose muscle.
Quote from: A on March 25, 2013, 07:14:58 AM
but seeing the state of my thighs, not so sure.
Thigh fat is deposited when your E levels are elevated... they aren't really effected by T levels.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on March 25, 2013, 01:09:23 PM
Thigh fat is deposited when your E levels are elevated... they aren't really effected by T levels.
Women also naturally store the Omega 3 fat in their thighs. That is why women who have grown up with a high fish diet tend to have more of an hour glass shape than other women. So, if your thighs are increasing in fat levels, but the rest of you is not it is a good sign your E levels are in the right area.
This.can work to cut down on muscle but you will have to eat a certain way and do certain exercises for 3-5 months after showily incorporating normal foods back In. It really is alot of work ;)
A little thought for those who get lab work... low Creatinine levels indicate that you may be losing muscle. Creatinine is a waste byproduct of Phosphocreatine, which serves as an energy store in the muscles. Since women have less muscles, they're likely to have less Phosphocreatine... and therefore create less Creatinine. Normal ranges are .6 - 1.1 mg/dl for women, .7 - 1.3 mg/dl in men. One of the indications in low Creatinine levels is muscular loss conditions such as muscular dystrophy.
However, keep in mind that it IS a waste byproduct.... so therefore the body SHOULD be flushing it out. A low number can also mean that your kidneys are functioning very well, and a high number can indicate liver damage (especially if it correlates with a high Blood Urea Nitrogen level).
I discovered all of this info today after getting my lab results from earlier this month and reading info as to why my Creatinine levels dropped to borderline low, and my BUN / Creatinine ratio was high. My Creatinine levels dropped from .78 in January, to .6 in March. I also noticed a loss in muscle, like I said earlier; especially in the forearms and calves.
I guess this is another good reason to get bloodwork done regularly :)
Creatinine... Wow, I don't think my endo would have me check that even if I asked.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on March 25, 2013, 01:09:23 PM
Thigh fat is deposited when your E levels are elevated... they aren't really effected by T levels.
I meant my thighs' muscles. I'm having a lot of trouble discerning how much of that mass in the rear is large muscles, and how much of it is fat, but I think muscle isn't negligible in there.
Quote from: A on March 25, 2013, 05:21:09 PM
Creatinine... Wow, I don't think my endo would have me check that even if I asked.
It's part of the Comprehensive Metabolic Panel... which SHOULD be checked for anybody undergoing HRT since it gives an overall view of how your liver and kidneys are doing.
Nope. The blood tests my endo prescribes are testosterone, estradiol, SHBG, LH and FSH. He checks health risks going by the estradiol level.
...I know, even to me it sounds awful, but I don't have much of a choice.
Ick... that's not really smart on the doctors part. She should at least do an occasional liver panel. If you develop a disease that can be linked to HRT, you could sue.
Right now I'm focusing on getting a decent dose and perhaps the beginning of some sort of breasts before full-time this summer and going back to school as a girl in the autumn. I'll try to talk about safety later, when the obvious, huge, urgent stupid stuff is corrected.
I'd be ready to strangle that doctor.. lol
You wouldn't. He's reaaaaally nice. Just... not very uhm. Dunno. I tell him one thing and he understands another. But you can't want to strangle that soft old man who really looks like he cares. Kick some sense into his head, maybe, though. :p
Take my hormones away from me and see what I become ....
:icon_boxing: :icon_cry2: :icon_evil: :icon_chainsaw: :icon_pistoles: :eusa_wall: :icon_punch: :icon_invision: :icon_censored: :icon_bat:
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on March 25, 2013, 10:44:30 PM
Take my hormones away from me and see what I become ....
:icon_boxing: :icon_cry2: :icon_evil: :icon_chainsaw: :icon_pistoles: :eusa_wall: :icon_punch: :icon_invision: :icon_censored: :icon_bat:
lol i dont think anyone would do that.. you dont seem like you take crap from anyone. i think if they tried you would make the doctor cry ;)
If you're not having live panels done there are ways to tell if you are having liver issues before they get really bad. (A) Your stool. If it is black, it could mean there is blood in it but is also associated with the the liver not functioning properly. (This would happen every time not just once. (B) an aching tenderness in the low right quadrant. The liver does not have nerves so it doesn't feel pain but if you developing a fatty liver then it will push against the edge of the ribcage, causing discomfort. (C) Jaundice. Your nails, your eyes, and then your skin. See a doctor immediately if you have jaundice. I'm sure there are other symptoms but those ones come to mind.
Anyhoo, for muscle loss, what I'm doing and have been doing for awhile, is cycling on my stationary bike. You'll want to stretch your arms forward and bend forward in the drop position like your in a race. This uses you muscles as stabilizing agents rather then working them out. Plus, you'll lose weight. Also, eat salads. It's like anti-eating since eat burns more calories than it give you. The plank too is a must to get rid of that pesky, icky stomach fat. Oooh, and yoga. can't forget yoga. Itis just totally fun and so relaxing so why wouldn't you want to do it, yes?
This is what I do. I used to have bigger arms too like about 14 inches flexed and now they are 12.5 flexed and 11 not flexed. I had a lot of trouble getting strong in the first place it took me five years of weight lifting and all kinds of supplements to get to 160 lbs. (I'm 5'6). When I stop, even for a week, it melts off me like crazy fast. But I have low T. That' a story for a different thread so i won't go there.
.
Yup that's it. The lower right side of the rib cage. I don't want to scare you though. And if it is happening right after you eat, that is prob the cause. These things are rare and the liver is the most resiliant, amazing organ. It literally regrows itself! If you do feel a tenderness there, lie down on you back and fell right at the horizon of your ribcage and stomach where the last rib bone is, if you have fatty liver, it will be kind of poking out. You'll feel it. But, you should prob look at some YouTube videos on how to do this right. You could also be feeling muscle. I highly doubt there is anything wrong with your liver. Jaundice would probably come before this type of pain. Like I said, the liver has no nerves so if you are feeling pain there it is most likely something else. You should get your ALT levels checked but again, please don't worry as unless your taking premarin or some other old estrogen the chance of developing a liver problem are fairly slim. It's an easy solve too. Take your pills sublingually or get patches or injections. I think doctors are much more worried about DVT then liver problems. I'm not a doctor so my advice is just that, advice, but I do know a lot about the liver. I prefer it with a nice chianti and some fave beans lol hehehe
Sooo an update on muscle mass. I've been making it a point to not lift anything over 5 pounds, I cut animal protein out of my diet completely except for eggs, and I've been riding my bicycle everywhere. My arm muscle is disappearing so quickly I loooove it :) I've lost about 1" off of each arm since starting HRT.
Obviously I can't get away with not lifting 5+ lbs all time time. Like when I want to cuddle my kittehs!
Go Jenny. That's really good news :)
Eating more fat, I'd recommend against that. Fat is twice as caloric as sugar or protein for the same mass. And from what I've seen, it doesn't make one feel especially full. Water, fibre and protein do. Not to mention fat just doesn't taste good.
Before I lost my job, I still had big arms. I had to use a 14lb impact gun all the time so even on HRT, my arms stayed big enough that I had a couple of women say they wished they had arms like mine. But one told me that when she saw me, she said, "Damn! that is one big girl!"
Now that I'm not lifting, my arms are apparently getting smaller. I wish my legs would too. And my belly. That especially. yep.
Quote from: A on May 04, 2013, 10:10:08 AM
Eating more fat, I'd recommend against that. Fat is twice as caloric as sugar or protein for the same mass. And from what I've seen, it doesn't make one feel especially full. Water, fibre and protein do. Not to mention fat just doesn't taste good.
It's fat in many foods that makes food taste good. French fries, doughnuts? Fat on its own tastes like fish oil supplements or lard. Yuck. Fat in foods like salmon, mackerel, walnuts and flax seeds is good for you.
Trying not to lift anything over 5lbs has made the hugest difference for me. If I do have to lift something a little heavier, I am just much more conscious of not using my biceps- so I kind of just counter balance my body and keep my hand tight.
It can be a pain in the butt, but the difference in my confidence wearing tanks and things that show my arms has been waaay worth it. Plus I just ask my guy friends to lift stuff, which is kinda fun and they get a kick out of it.
If you want to lose muscle, you have to do aerobic exercise AND be running a caloric deficit AND be low on protein. Aerobic exercise directly uses glycogen stores in the muscle for fuel when you are low on calories. It's also important to keep the intake of red meat down as well. Protein will maintain any muscles you have. My arms were 14 inches about 4 months ago; now they are 11.5 inches. The shoulder muscles have proven to be more stubborn.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 04, 2013, 02:34:44 PM
If you want to lose muscle, you have to do aerobic exercise AND be running a caloric deficit AND be low on protein. Aerobic exercise directly uses glycogen stores in the muscle for fuel when you are low on calories. It's also important to keep the intake of red meat down as well. Protein will maintain any muscles you have. My arms were 14 inches about 4 months ago; now they are 11.5 inches.
I always wondered how much muscle, and which ones, I maintain by playing the piano for hours. It's my main exercise.
Quote
The shoulder muscles have proven to be more stubborn.
One thing, you've got quite narrow shoulders from what I've seen. So you don't have too much worry, really.
Quote from: Tesla on May 04, 2013, 02:44:37 PM
I always wondered how much muscle, and which ones, I maintain by playing the piano for hours. It's my main exercise.
One thing, you've got quite narrow shoulders from what I've seen. So you don't have too much worry, really.
I'm not that worried about my shoulders at all. I am lucky in that they are only 13.5-14 inches wide which is really narrow. They used to really bother me but a lot of my features that used to annoy me are now proving to be assets.
I'm not sure how much the piano would maiintain muscles but I'm sure it does. Any time I move my fingers I can feel most of my upper arm muscles working, so it does something, especially if you are practicing for hours. I love love love the piano by the way.
My shoulder measurement has changed the most. I know it's not just a product of muscle loss, though. I've been correcting my slouchy posture by rotating the shoulders up an then back to straighten out my spine and my shoulders go in significantly, too. With both, my shoulder circumference has gone from 42" to 37" :O