I have been pondering about this one for a while, and I was wondering what you guys think about this one.
Whenever I would watch plastic surgery programs, I would be like "Why would anyone want bigger boobs?" or "Why would you do that facelift?" because it was based on people wanting to be 'pretty', which is a very subjective thing. And in my eyes, people wasted money on these kinds of surgery.
However, when I think about the surgery offered to transexuals, I can't help but wonder if this is the same kind of thing. The people who get a nosejob get one because it increases their self esteem, and makes them more happy with their body. Isn't that what we as transexual people aim for as well? Isn't it exactly the same?
Of course, in the end, it does not matter what label you give the surgery. It's about the end result: the person being happy with his or her body. But still....How close is buttom and top surgery to plastic surgery? Is it the same thing? A cosmetic alteration in order to benefit self esteem and self acceptance? Or is it something completely different based on that fact we do have a known condition, called genderdysphoria?
I guess after criticizing people who get facelifts and other plastic surgery, I needed a moment of self reflection and this was the result...Sorry, my thoughts wander all over the place lately.
Your thoughts?
Technically they are plastic surgery, but they are not cosmetic surgery (except maybe like FFS or the male equivalent but that could be argued either way). Transsexualism can be life threatening and this is the only known solution.
I always thought sexual reassignment surgery was its own category.
Normal surgeries are used to improve a person's physical health while cosmetic surgery is usually something that's unnecessary to a person's physical health but it's done to improve a person's mental well being.
SRS does both, it corrects the physical "problem" of a person's identity not matching their body which then improves the person's mental health. It's also something that's done mainly for personal reasons whereas cosmetic surgeries are all too often done to please others and make a person look better in the eyes of their peers rather than for their own personal well being.
To the outside world SRS for transsexuals can seem just as narcissistic as someone getting a breast augmentation, nose job, ect. However, technically SRS is considered plastic surgery because physically (no, I'm not going into the emotional aspects for some) transsexuals can survive physically with their body the way it is.
It's really all about someone having a dysphoria about their body that they want resolved medically. Who is to say that the person with the big nose doesn't have extreme dysphoria that has caused or could lead up to a major depressive episode?
All I know is life is short, too short. If it makes someone happy and harms no one else then more power to them, regardless of the procedure.
Quote from: kkut on March 31, 2013, 04:50:47 PM
TS is not life threatening. We need to start getting this straight.
They were going into the emotional aspects of being TS and yes for some emotionally the dysphoria is too much to handle and they commit suicide.
Quote from: kkut on March 31, 2013, 05:04:47 PM
I've had life saving medical procedures twice now in my life, I've seen the grim reaper, please don't put suicide on par with what I and others have faced to stay on this big rock. Please.
I have had five life saving procedures to have brain/spine/kidney tumors removed. I know all about life saving procedures BUT the fact remains that most don't experience life as we do. I am in agreement with you but we have to take their feelings into account. To a lot of transsexuals their transition is the hardest thing they go threw because it's all they know.
in the end it's all cosmetic. every last bit of it. vaginoplasty? yeah, it makes a canal, but it's not preserving a function of the body (reproduction) so it can't be considered reconstructive. Breast removal? not a necessary function being saved.
I always considered plastic surgery to just be a form of permanent makeup. no big deal.
a good question
I think there simularetys but not the same as just getting bigger boobs or a nose job.
some surgerys are more nessesarry in my eyes than others, a man who has a disease so his nose gets very big and hard to breath with + make him look very diffrent are in another position than a guy who just think his nose is a bit crooky.
I havent tried plastic surgery beside my top but I have been to a doctor to ask about options of it as I would want some smaller hips.
my hips already been smaller on T but still not enough.
For me Top surgery where nessesarry so I wouldnt be wearing a binder forever and could just go for a shirt. It was so I could go free breathing with by bad lungs who been damaged by the binding, and so I wouldnt care so much as I use to do. to make it short it felt very much like something I had to do for my mental and physical health,
the hip where a smaller detail which I could live without and even if I would never manage to get them done I could get use to it abit the same as I feel about my face, I got alot of complex about my cheeks which I think are fat (its just me thinking so) but still I dont feel them to be nessesarry for my wellbeing even if it would be nice if there where abit smaller.
im not agenst plastic surgerys for smaller details, but I belive theres a diffrence between plastic surgery which we feel very nessesarry for our well being, and then plastic surgerys who really isnt such a big detail but which we do cause we can.
we could maybe label them as plastic surgery 1 and 2, where 1 is needed and 2 is a choise we make, and its diffrent for each of us which is 1 and 2, some transpeople may not get surgery cause they dont feel its nessesarry for others is a big thing.
Quote from: kkut on March 31, 2013, 05:26:25 PM
What do you mean 'they'? I'm on this forum too!
You know what I am talking about, the people who are lucky enough to have not experienced a life threatening illness, disease, malignancy, etc. THEY (who are also in the majority here) often see situations in different terms.
Then there are trans people like us who have had life threatening issues that have shaped our outlook on certain topics. Suicide I'm sure is one of those topics as we have fought too hard to live to even have that as an option.
Realistically there are a lot of trans people who see SRS as a life saving procedure. To THEM it is. Never said to you it was, has to be, or should be. I agree with your stance on the topic because of shared life experiences but not everyone has the same outlook.
Quote from: mangoslayer on March 31, 2013, 04:30:23 PM
Technically they are plastic surgery, but they are not cosmetic surgery (except maybe like FFS or the male equivalent but that could be argued either way). Transsexualism can be life threatening and this is the only known solution.
I agree.
Quote from: kkut on March 31, 2013, 05:26:25 PM
Quote from: Simon on March 31, 2013, 05:11:44 PM
I have had five life saving procedures to have brain/spine/kidney tumors removed. I know all about life saving procedures BUT the fact remains that most don't experience life as we do. I am in agreement with you but we have to take their feelings into account. To a lot of transsexuals their transition is the hardest thing they go threw because it's all they know.
What do you mean 'they'? I'm on this forum too!
Don't be so persnickety and taking things to heart, it's only going to stress you out and that helps no one. Anyway, he wasn't making a blanket statement.
On that topic, I don't feel like being trans is a life threatening condition, even though it has made me consider ending it all a couple of times. I feel as though being trans
can is sometimes a contributing factor to problems such as depression, which can lead to very strong suicidal thoughts. Those thoughts I would class as life threatening because I've been in a state where every single place I looked I saw somewhere/thing to kill myself. I had no desire to die, but the pull was constant and there was no escape. Without being voluntarily kept in hospital that night I have no doubt that I would have been taken there that night due to serious harm, or in the morning in a body bag. So in itself being trans is not fatal, but it should be monitored as it can contribute to other things which can get you into a potentially life threatening state. This isn't belittling anyone's experiences with physical illnesses which are life threatening, I just personally don't like the viewpoint that mental illnesses can just be gotten over and aren't as serious. Without
good treatment they can be (oh and how much I want to emphasis that "good".)
Actually on topic, I think that trans surgeries are more than cosmetic. GID is an illness in which they cannot fix the root cause, but only the symptoms, and hormones/surgery is what is required to do this for a lot of people. In people who have serious problems with their appearance, to the extent they don't want to go out in public, or can't otherwise lead a satisfactory lifestyle then I don't think that that's cosmetic either really, even though it might be surgeries normally classed as cosmetic. If it's just someone wanting a boob job because they can, and like the look of it then it's entirely different and entirely cosmetic. Basically, if it's having an effect on someone's well-being it isn't just a cosmetic and vein thing IMO.
Quote from: kkut on March 31, 2013, 05:04:47 PM
I've had life saving medical procedures twice now in my life, I've seen the grim reaper, please don't put suicide on par with what I and others have faced to stay on this big crusty beautiful rock. Please.
I haven't experienced what you have and you haven't experienced what I have. I do not intend to belittle your experiences so please do not belittle mine.
Suicide is not always a choice. Just as the body can give out after fighting a battle with illness or injury, the mind can give out as well. When someone kills themselves it is because they are unable to take anymore. And even though I haven't had one of my organs fail or take a bullet to the chest, I fought like hell to stay on this earth just as you have.
Quote from: medicalnewstoday.comPlastic surgery has two branches, cosmetic surgery and reconstructive plastic surgery. Cosmetic surgery is concerned with improving the aesthetic appearance of a person, while plastic surgery may include this, or just the reconstruction (reconstructive surgery). Reconstructive plastic surgery is concerned with improving function; however, it may also involve trying to approximate normal appearance, but that is not its primary function. Reconstructive plastic surgery is often referred as simply reconstructive surgery.
Quote from: MedicineNet.comSurgery: The branch of medicine that employs operations in the treatment of disease or injury. Surgery can involve cutting, abrading, suturing, or otherwise physically changing body tissues and organs.
Quote from: kkut on March 31, 2013, 05:59:49 PM
I didn't, I just forgot to put my little wink wink icon at the end. ;) ;) ;)
Persnickety... I love it! :)
I apologise for sounding a little grumpy then :)
Frankly, it is cosmetic surgery since the purpose is to alter the body. The reasons behind getting breast removal and breast augmentation in the end are not that different. It improves the life of the person, whether anyone else understands or not. Do I think it's life saving? I dunno, how important is the body to a person? I wouldn't off myself because I haven't had my chest worked on yet, or because I have to wait longer than I thought. I don't think that being trans is as important as some folks do. It just happens to be a part of me, like not being a morning person or my love of coffee. For other people, being trans and everything they associate with that is the most important thing. For those folks, I can accept that the surgeries are very important, and depending on where they are mentally, life preserving.
The only cosmetic surgeries I find odd are calf, bicep and ab augmentation. I just don't get those ones.
Trans is something I see as just part of me because I look at myself as a guy. I see the surgeries that are involved as just that- surgeries. It shouldn't be so hard for them to be deemed as medically necessary when a person is too sad to leave the house for days upon end just to avoid the hassle that comes with having a body that is clearly of one sex but a mind of a different one. Insurance companies do like their money, though. But surgery is surgery- and for lots of transguys and girls it goes beyond mere aesthetics. Hopefully someday said surgeries can give true reproductive function, the whole biological nine yards instead of just the physical mechanism of it. I'm sure that would make a whole lot of people happy.
I guess plastic surgery can be a way for people to seek out superficial beauty.
Though there can be several reasons to why a person would want plastic surgery. For females and mtf it could be because they want to achieve the look that everyone likes. I can difinitely see what make surgery seem useless.
What is beauty? I get this surgery and one person likes it. Then it no longer appeals to them. Then I get another surgery, but this time going by what I think beauty is. Then my perceptions of beauty changes. So why even have plastic surgery in the first place?
Not to say plastic surgery is totally useless. There are some people that get a surgery and gain higher self esteem through out their life. Plastic surgery does different things for different individuals. We can't really look to each other to see what result we will get. You never know
I always thought the surgeon job is to make people look natural (main purpose, correct me if am wrong). Isn't this what most mtf want, not necessarily beauty. Then again, I could be wrong and some mtf want both beauty and to look as natural as they can be when presenting as a girl. Although for a cis female, I cannot think of any other reason Beside obtaining beauty from surgery. But like I say there is no way what to tell what goes through a person head.
Quote from: Ayden on March 31, 2013, 06:44:27 PM
I don't think that being trans is as important as some folks do. It just happens to be a part of me, like not being a morning person or my love of coffee. For other people, being trans and everything they associate with that is the most important thing. For those folks, I can accept that the surgeries are very important, and depending on where they are mentally, life preserving.
The only cosmetic surgeries I find odd are calf, bicep and ab augmentation. I just don't get those ones.
I am on the same wavelength. I see it a lot more important than my personal likes though. More like another attribute that's no different than my eye or hair color. It's just something that is there since birth. I don't think it really makes my life more difficult. It's other people's perceptions of what transgender people are and the monetary costs that make it more difficult.
Butt implants are what I find odd but then again that person may have a complex from being picked on in school, who knows.
Quote from: kkut on March 31, 2013, 07:37:49 PM
Insurance companies provide financial protection against certain types of risks we face. They develop policies with well defined language that people purchase for their personal needs. Most people want protection from acute immediate life threatening risks. Thus, these are the cheaper affordable policies. Adding all these other components such as TG surgeries costs money.
If insurance companies costed these policies and offered them say at $2K per month, would you buy one? Probably not.
I work in the insurance industry and I've had several clients go bankrupt because they can't get enough money for the coverage they offer. Their employees are unemployed and the owners have lost just about everything they've put into the business. I don't know any company that's making excess profit, there's simply too much competition.
It may sound good to say they're greedy, but it's not the case and life isn't that simple.
Oh, I don't mean it in the way of greed. I mean that they have to stay afloat somehow. The concept makes sense but it'd be nice if society understood that this isn't some petty thing about wanting to look nice, but more the best means we have of bringing trans peoples' bodies as close as currently possible to the way a cis persons' would be. Then again, I don't understand why a simple project of connecting the uptown side of a station to the uptown side of another station when the downtown sides were already connected took 127 million dollars and they spent a good deal of it on escalators where they have elevators and complex neon lighting on the ceiling while other, more frequently used stations are in absolute disrepair and there's always some problem or another. Nice to see my fare hike is going to a good cause. :P
You're setting off my MBTA-dar!