I was looking on the NHS website and came across a statement about T and it's changes.
Quote
If you are a trans man, some of the changes that you may notice from hormone therapy include:
- you may have more body and facial hair
- your clitoris (a small, sensitive part of the female genitals) may get bigger
- you may have an increased sex drive (libido)
Hormone therapy can also cause baldness and acne in trans men. Your voice may get slightly deeper, but it will not be as deep as other men's voices.
I just found it strange that the rest of the effects they always say "may" or "can", but on voice it's a blanket statement of "rarrr this will never happen, you'll never be like the other men!" And I've heard guys on youtube who have really deep voices, and anyway, there's no standard male voice, take Joe Pasquale for example.
Yeah I also heard many transmen, (I guess I can include myself) with a pretty normal male voice.
I mean I heard it something with mens throats is generally longer so there voices is to get deeper than ftms who usunally is smaller and have a smaller throat.
but the deepness in your voice also depends on other things than just that, I where told by my ex sing teacher that my voice where high but I had been used to speak in a rather deep voice, so now when im on T its pretty deep, I guess if I where used to speak in a very high voice my voice would surely sound diffrent.
My voice is deeper than my father's ;)
If that is true, I think it is probably an insignificant difference. If you would like your speaking voice to be slightly lower, I'm sure you can train yourself to speak with a slightly deeper voice.
It does come across to me as a "you will never be like real men" kind of blanket statement. Also, I have never read that anywhere else.
Another one of those darn genetic thingamabobs.
Happens with cis guys too. Just listen to Ross Matthews or Chris Colfer.
My voice is now a deep baritone and it certainly was no where near that starting out.
I also have a little bit of an Adam's apple, that was not there before, which I adore.
So yeah that's a fairly vindictive blanket statement on the NHS website which is quite untrue.
I can't understand how they can get away with saying that when they're supposed to be the people helping us. We're supposed to go along and trust part of their team with what can be for some the most difficult and darkest secret we've been holding needing their help, and they're saying things like this. It doesn't help that people go looking to the NHS for advice and expecting it to be a trustworthy resource -- what does all our tax go to anyway? -- and they're telling our families that might go looking to understand better that we won't ever be normal.
It's a little thing but it bleeding well annoys me.
God I wish my voice would drop... bah. Anyways that statement is almost funny. I've heard some trans guys who have deeper, smoother voices than normal cis-guys. I've also heard others trans-men who don't have very male voices (*raise hand*) it's just a roll of DNA. Maybe they don't want to raise your hopes? dunno. I'd almost be inclined to email them and have them re-phrase that statement, but that's just me ;)
It also depends how you use your voice. They may have observed a number of FTMs who end up sounding "gay" because they still use the female intonation.
Quote from: Caleb. on April 02, 2013, 08:52:26 PM
It also depends how you use your voice. They may have observed a number of FTMs who end up sounding "gay" because they still use the female intonation.
I've found that not only how deep your voice is, but also your inflections and how you speak will help you pass or not pass if you're early on in transition.
I recorded an audio clip (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/46312417/recording-20130402-231332.mp3) it's about 5 minutes long (I know...long) trying to explain the different things in my voice that I recognize.
1. Pronunciation of S sounds (especially at the beginning of words). I don't know why, but I feel that the way I make "s" sounds is a bit different from cis guys.
2. Talking from a tense voice vs relaxed voice...when I get tense I talk from the top of my throat, but when I'm relaxed everything is groovy.
3. Being on T is like no longer having helium in your lungs. When you inhale helium you talk in a high pitch squeeky voice but when you run out you still sound similar to how you were sounding because you're adjusted to talking with that part of your throat. It's the same idea with T. It's the best analogy I can think of.
Edit to add: my family thinks I talk like William Shatner....this is kinda making me realize they're right.
I've been on T for a month. Really heard the drop. I can sometimes pass almost on voice alone (well and an androgynous though male-ish appearance). It isn't really low and seems to kind of go all over the place. I definitely sound gay but it is because I have female speech patterns.
--Jay
I think this is nonsense! What's a normal man's voice anyway?
I pass on voice pre-T, even when dealing with official correspondence where my birth name is on record! I can't tell you the amount of times I've been on the phone with my bank and been called sir even though I had to clarify my name a minute earlier (and oh how I love it).
I have no idea why something like this would even bother to say that. I'd understand an out like "Results may not be comparable to other men" but to flat out say it won't when we know that it often can and does, that's just like displaying flat out incompetence!!!
Did Cameron have a say in this write up? Maybe he's sneaking into different sections and adding nonsense like this to discredit the NHS? Sneaky little bugger! :P
Quote from: aleon515 on April 02, 2013, 10:35:27 PM
I've been on T for a month. Really heard the drop. I can sometimes pass almost on voice alone (well and an androgynous though male-ish appearance). It isn't really low and seems to kind of go all over the place. I definitely sound gay but it is because I have female speech patterns.
--Jay
Feel my envy burn Jay! Lol naw.
I agree with all the above statements, while my own voice hasn't dropped much, I took a video from the horse a few days ago. I speak on it, ti was the first time i'd heard my voice since being on T. While others may not have really noticed a change, due to it being so gradual, I actually noticed a huge different. When I speak in a relaxed tone and from low in my throat I can get sounding pretty male, when I sing in the car I use it as an exercise to go as long as possible. Sounds pretty good to my ears! My problem is that a) my voice isn't very low to begin with, which I then feed by b) almost always talking in the high part of my throat, both of these things making my pitch go up.
Also, while not everyone will achieve a true male pitch there are things the individual can do to lower his voice.
Found this picture today on my searches, thought it was fitting;
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcontent.artofmanliness.com%2Fuploads%2F%2F2011%2F11%2FHeManVoice-Vim1256p29.jpg&hash=7e9289edbc15d0aa218c9a30b3f4e7bea4860184)
There are even some cis-men who struggle with high pitched voices. Theres on individual who was a politician i believe who had an awful nasaly high voice, but he took some lessons and now has a very nice voice (i can't for the life of me recall his name). So while not all of us may 'end up' with deep voices because of the T alone, with some effort we can certainly get a male voice.
I'm just to lazy to take my own advice lol x)
This had better not be true. I'm pre-T and I sure as hell don't want to sound like a cross between an elderly goat and a fax machine for the rest of my life.
If it wasn't for the fact that I've heard guys go on T and get deeper voices, I wouldn't bother with T. The voice is one of the main reasons I want to go on it and if I can't get that then screw that crap. It might not be a guarantee to get the lower voice, but it could be worth a shot. My voice is so high pitched I cant stand it...
I sound exactly like my younger brother, according to everyone in the family. Top that with the fact that the kids I work with call me big brother *because* of how deep my voice sounds, I'd say its a mileage thing. Despite being (to quote a student of mine) 'too pretty for a boy, cause they are gross', my voice tells them I'm male. The parents are surprised to hear that I'm biologically female.
My voice isn't as deep as my husbands, but it's much deeper than a couple of friends. Again, your mileage may vary.
Quote from: Liminal Stranger on April 03, 2013, 12:21:17 AM
This had better not be true. I'm pre-T and I sure as hell don't want to sound like a cross between an elderly goat and a fax machine for the rest of my life.
This cracked me up. :laugh:
Well mine's not as deep as my dad's, but then I never thought a voice that deep would fit me so I'm glad. I don't know whether mine's comparable to cis men's or not. I suppose it is, but I don't use it correctly half the time. I keep trying to talk in my old voice. Accidentally. But I'm not pressed about it.
Whoever wrote that list is full of it. I've heard trans guys deeper than Barry White.
Just to add my random 2 cents, I was browsing around YouTube, as I so often do, and a cis-guy put up a video for fell cis-guys on how to deepen their voices which is the exact same as techniques as the one made for FTMs. All in all I find that no matter how deep or not deep your voice goes, T changes something to make it sound more masculine even if it is still in the tennor/alto range. I don't know where that website got their information but I have definitely heard some voices that have gotten pretty dang low and I've heard some pretty high cis male voices.
Quote from: Liminal Stranger on April 03, 2013, 12:21:17 AM
This had better not be true. I'm pre-T and I sure as hell don't want to sound like a cross between an elderly goat and a fax machine for the rest of my life.
I'm trying to think of a joke involving this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpccpglnNf0), but that's just because I so thoroughly enjoy it. :D
Quote from: Liminal Stranger on April 03, 2013, 12:21:17 AM
This had better not be true. I'm pre-T and I sure as hell don't want to sound like a cross between an elderly goat and a fax machine for the rest of my life.
loooool xD
Quote from: AlexanderC on April 02, 2013, 08:20:55 PM
I can't understand how they can get away with saying that when they're supposed to be the people helping us. We're supposed to go along and trust part of their team with what can be for some the most difficult and darkest secret we've been holding needing their help, and they're saying things like this. It doesn't help that people go looking to the NHS for advice and expecting it to be a trustworthy resource -- what does all our tax go to anyway? -- and they're telling our families that might go looking to understand better that we won't ever be normal.
It's a little thing but it bleeding well annoys me.
If this is the only negative aspect of the NHS that you discover during your transition, you will have had the smoothest, trouble-free transition on the NHS of anyone I have ever known.
Can FTM get adam's apples ?? or are cis-men just born with something im not and it grows into one ?
Quote from: Tay on April 03, 2013, 02:26:15 PM
If this is the only negative aspect of the NHS that you discover during your transition, you will have had the smoothest, trouble-free transition on the NHS of anyone I have ever known.
I actually have existing problems with the NHS that stop me even trying to transition with them before I'm 18 and out of the care of CAMHS. But even that, and the waiting times I can understand, there is only a finite amount of resources and we're not one of their priorities. Having the nerve to say outright that we will never be on the same par as cis men isn't due to money or any other reason apart from ignorance and just slacking. Maybe even some minute transphobia thrown in the mix as well.
It's often the little things which matter, have you ever heard people saying you can tell the state of an establishment by it's toilets, or the professionalism of a man by his shoes? I believe it's sort of the same thing with companies and their websites.
Quote from: Landen Scott on April 03, 2013, 02:38:58 PM
Can FTM get adam's apples ?? or are cis-men just born with something im not and it grows into one ?
Yes, we do get them. It is just the larynx and everybody has a larynx
Yeah, that is an outright lie.
The only exception being for those who start T rather late in life, where their larynx has already ossified or is in the process of becoming bone. In that instance the cartilage, not being cartilage anymore, won't grow and the voice wouldn't be able to change all that much as a result (the vocal chords will still stretch but would be trapped in a too-small larynx structure). In that instance, and only that instance, would that claim be mostly true. Otherwise, if it is still cartilage and not bone, it'll grow and it'll change a whole lot.
I know mine has gotten about three times its size already. I actually felt structures being pushed aside to accommodate it (especially in the first three months). If I moved my head and jaw a certain way they'd lock up and stress the ligaments in there, feeling too short and pulling. Still happening too. And it feels a bit uncomfortable squarely in that area in the second week after my dose (where I notice my voice consistently changing now, like clockwork).
Actually, NONE of my Oxford's fit me in my neck anymore because of this alone. They ALL choke me because they push back on it too much. They were all between 1/2-1" between my neck and collar before and now there's no room. I was a 17" neck before too. Its going to be really hard to find a 20" neck but in a medium or large trunk... seriously. Certainly not going to be a department-store find.
I still can't use my voice without it breaking. I mean like, it'll just stop making noises altogether at even medium ranges so it's still growing and changing and probably won't stop for a few years yet.
Anyway, bonafide BS from the NHS (so long as you're not or aren't totally ossified in your larynx cartilage). ;)
Quote from: Magnus on April 03, 2013, 05:12:35 PM
Yeah, that is an outright lie.
The only exception being for those who start T rather late in life, where their larynx has already ossified or is in the process of becoming bone. In that instance the cartilage, not being cartilage anymore, won't grow and the voice wouldn't be able to change all that much as a result (the vocal chords will still stretch but would be trapped in a too-small larynx structure). In that instance, and only that instance, would that claim be mostly true. Otherwise, if it is still cartilage and not bone, it'll grow and it'll change a whole lot.
I
Anyway, bonafide BS from the NHS (so long as you're not or aren't totally ossified in your larynx cartilage). ;)
I don't know about this even. I am definitely "older". My voice is deepening nicely. I know quite a few guys over 40 (and even 50) and all their voices deepened too.
I think the larynx is soft tissue in any case.
I think the info in the NHS is just plain BS regardless of transition age. I haven't heard ANYBODY at all who has been on T a reasonable length of time who's voice didn't deepen and be "not as low as a cisguy". I doubt the "Center for Excellence" would spout such garbage.
--Jay
Didn't say it wouldn't deepen (vocal chords lengthening is the deepening factor and happens whether or not the surrounding laryngeal cartilage is ossified because the cords aren't cartilage and therefore cannot ossify and can continue to lengthen/thicken), but it is still a fact that when the laryngeal cartilage ossifies, that's it in terms of it growing/stretching/thickening anymore. It can't if it's already progressed beyond a certain amount of partial or complete ossification/calcification.
So then the statement of it not getting as deep as it otherwise would (which I'm sure is what they were trying to state rather than what they ended up stating instead - the person who put it up there probably is a second-language English speaker), is true. Not that it won't deepen at all, but that it won't become as deep as it could if ossification wasn't present prior to TRT (and because deepness is a two-fold factor of both vocal chord length and thickness, as well as the adam's apple size and weight).
But anyway, yes the larynx is soft tissue... up to a certain point where it begins to calcify, and that certain point like so very many other things, is highly individual. Ossification begins and ends at very many different ages and stages in life. But it does happen, to everyone. If it didn't, we would all still have mushy skulls like infants and we also would never stop growing on account of the cartilage (growth plates) never ossifying to close them and stop growth (as just a couple of many examples).
For reference, if anyone is interested... http://www.ajnr.org/content/26/6/1339.full (http://www.ajnr.org/content/26/6/1339.full)
Discussion; paragraph 4.
"The laryngeal cartilages are hyaline cartilage, except for the fibroelastic cartilage of the epiglottis. Hyaline cartilages undergo change over time, with progressive enchondral ossification (5, 6). There is wide variation between the age of an individual and the stages of calcification of the laryngeal cartilage. Nevertheless, calcifications progressively progress with age. Moreover, the order of ossification of laryngeal cartilages correlates with the distribution of the mechanical forces applied to the larynx cartilages (6)."
Quote from: Magnus on April 04, 2013, 04:04:18 PM
So then the statement of it not getting as deep as it otherwise would (which I'm sure is what they were trying to state rather than what they ended up stating instead - the person who put it up there probably is a second-language English speaker), is true. Not that it won't deepen at all, but that it won't become as deep as it could if ossification wasn't present prior to TRT (and because deepness is a two-fold factor of both vocal chord length and thickness, as well as the Adam's apple size and weight).
I'm not sure we should be assuming that it was written by someone who's native language isn't English seeing as it was published on the NHS website, which is the British health system, and well, we did invent English... (yes, I know we nicked most of our words from other countries and language is a constantly evolving thing etc but that's beside the point). The fact is that that statement is actually pretty harmful, and shouldn't be on such a website. If I had an email address for them, and thought it would make the slightest bit of difference I would be complaining pronto.
I can assure you though that regardless of age, every trans guy I know (who has been on T for over a few months) has a sufficiently male voice. Don't know if they are as low as they might have been, I think it's a bit hard to say. I don't have much doubt, based on what I hear right now that my voice will get in the male range both deeper and more resonant. Actually already is at least some of the time when it isn't see-sawing.
--Jay
Yeah that sentence always bothered me too...it's like...based on what evidence?
I personally have had a massive voice drop. I went from being able to sing like Amy Lee (evanescence) to singing like Alex Band (The Calling)
I am not on T but sometimes i try to lower my voice and i can kind of pass. I can pass easily when i have a cold, lol. My voice is not high at all but it's not really low. It's lower than a regular female voice but there are girls with lower voices. Which makes me sad. :(
my voice is as deep as many cis teens. i am a a bass baritone when it comes to singing the mens chorus teacher at my school keeps trying to get me to join.
Quote from: anibioman on April 17, 2013, 06:56:44 AM
my voice is as deep as many cis teens. i am a a bass baritone when it comes to singing the mens chorus teacher at my school keeps trying to get me to join.
I think my singing voice is now clearly tenor (almost 7 weeks on T). My voice for talking is also about like a teenager's. Funny given my age. But I guess you *can* be teenage twice. :)
--Jay
I have only met a small handful of cis men with deep voices, and they were all in their 50's and 60's. I rarely hear any cis men no matter where I go with extremely deep, let alone "booming" deep voices, especially not younger men. I know some men who are cis, and straight with higher pitched voices and one who can do a woman's voice with little effort. Most cis men I meat have moderate voices, not high pitched but not really all that deep either.
Rick Astley is a baratone and recorded Never Gonna Give You Up when he was 21...Lance Bass from Nsync has a pretty low voice, too.
My voice recently dropped and sounds a bit less squeaky and a bit smoother, if it can drop like any cisdude's without the help of any T, natural or injected, I think HRT should produce some pretty good results in the voice department. I've only heard of issues with people still having female inflections in their voice and "sounding gay", or not being able to sing properly because they're using a female technique or something. I don't know why the NHS would say that, seems pretty insensitive IMHO.
Really, I'd say everything comes down to genetics, just like all other changes.