Not all of course but ive recently attended a few lgbt meetings in my city and most of if not all the transwomen there seemed to be what i would call caricatures of women. They dress and act like stereotypical women you know with too much make up, very feminine dresses, high heels and obnoxiously high voices- i mean the kind where it seems like they are REALLY forcing it. I don't mean to speak ill of anyone in the community but to me it seems like the harder they try the more they give themselves away- that's why personally it seems like subtlety is much better. A lot of the transwomen i speak of tend to be the older crowd as well but ive seen plenty of younger gals like this. Could it be because of all the years of suppressing who is on the inside? is it a form of being validated? Can someone explain this to me?
Maybe you should ask them? I will say more typically-feminine MTFs seem to be the exception rather than the rule, personality-wise. The things you stated were kinda more physical aspects of people, as opposed to interests and likes, which point to a person's personality. If it makes them happy, I say go for it.
Quote from: Elsa.G on April 02, 2013, 06:34:44 PM
Not all of course but ive recently attended a few lgbt meetings in my city and most of if not all the transwomen there seemed to be what i would call caricatures of women. They dress and act like stereotypical women you know with too much make up, very feminine dresses, high heels and obnoxiously high voices- i mean the kind where it seems like they are REALLY forcing it. I don't mean to speak ill of anyone in the community but to me it seems like the harder they try the more they give themselves away- that's why personally it seems like subtlety is much better. A lot of the transwomen i speak of tend to be the older crowd as well but ive seen plenty of younger gals like this. Could it be because of all the years of suppressing who is on the inside? is it a form of being validated? Can someone explain this to me?
I give this post high marks on the Rude-o-meter. You having a bad day, hon?
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on April 02, 2013, 07:15:36 PM
I give this post high marks on the Rude-o-meter. You having a bad day, hon?
Are you being sarcastic?
What's rude about her question? It's simply a question based on an observation she's made.
Quote from: Elsa.G on April 02, 2013, 06:34:44 PM
Not all of course but ive recently attended a few lgbt meetings in my city and most of if not all the transwomen there seemed to be what i would call caricatures of women. They dress and act like stereotypical women you know with too much make up, very feminine dresses, high heels and obnoxiously high voices- i mean the kind where it seems like they are REALLY forcing it. I don't mean to speak ill of anyone in the community but to me it seems like the harder they try the more they give themselves away- that's why personally it seems like subtlety is much better. A lot of the transwomen i speak of tend to be the older crowd as well but ive seen plenty of younger gals like this. Could it be because of all the years of suppressing who is on the inside? is it a form of being validated? Can someone explain this to me?
My answer would be that there are cis women like this too but no one tells then they are trying too hard because there is nothing for them to be trying at they just like really girly stuff. Personality wise I'm a tomboy but I still love going girly from time to time. It's not that I'm forcing it, I just enjoy it.
I am probably one of these.
I was like that in 'guy mode' before though. Should I not have been ? are camp men caricatures of women?
It is who I am. There are girly (cis)girls like that too. They are not 'caricatures of women' :-|
You can't get me to describe why I like baking and nail paint and girl bands and the colour pink any more than you can get a man to describe why he likes football. Why do you like cheese?
You do. There is no specific reason for that, so just accept it. (actually, there is probably a good evolutionary reason for why our tastes a different related to survival and I could go into a few in PM if you really want to discuss evolution and genetics - but still) Nobody asks my sister why she likes heels and baking. Me and my sister are very alike in all these things. Why shouldn't we be? Should I have to be masculine or even less girly than her? Should anybody have to be anything? Or can we all live on a spectrum and place ourselves wherever we are comfortable?
I like that stuff.... ...because I do.
I am trying hard not to find being called a caricature insulting. I know a lot of people would find me that way. Germaine Greer (evilous bi*ch) included. That is very close to her tran* phobic remarks. Hmmmmm. Personally I give less of a monkeys about 'giving myself away' than doing the things that I like and being me. OK, I might be a stereotypical woman but I can't help that. My 'too much make up' helps to cover the face hair and rash and other masculine features.
It's not often I don't agree with MoO but I am afraid I *do* find this rude.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 02, 2013, 07:03:35 PM
If it makes them happy, I say go for it.
Edit for clarity: I agree with this quote.
I'm also with Devlyn.
Since taking my turn reading
Whipping Girl, and in particular the section about gatekeepers, I've been bothered by how we in the community
today commit the same errors the gatekeepers did to our trans brothers and sisters by making statements like, "we gotta pass for cis" or "someone should do something different cause it would be 'better'".
If subtlety works for someone, great! If being a Glam-Rock Grandma works for another, so be it! In the interest of avoiding saying someone should do something myself I'll instead say, when a fellow transperson is out there, celebrating and owning who they are as an individual and where they are on the gender spectrum, I think in general more good is done than harm.
Now I must listen to
Pork and Beans.♫ They I say I need some Rogaine to put in my Hair ♫ ...
I'm like that. I'm very girly and it comes natural. So it's not our fault for how we act
It's somewhat common for trans women to fall prey to over-stereotypification and a certain degree of ultra-feminization early on in transition. The real problem comes if several months later they don't realize that they pretty much look like mockeries instead of actual women and find a more natural/desirable middle. Not to mention over the top presentations generally critically hinder passability... So it's in fact quite counter-productive to go down that path.
Some tend to overcompensate. No different than a middle aged guy with a small penis who drives a Ferrari.
Quote from: MaidofOrleans on April 02, 2013, 07:18:34 PM
...
What's rude about her question? It's simply a question based on an observation she's made.
...
Fortunately for me, I am early in my transition. But if I'd tried and tried to "pass" for several years, and could finally stomach the thought that "at least I'm happy for me"...and then I saw this thread...
Flat out, I'd probably kill myself within minutes. As it is, I'm near the edge.
Quote from: Isabelle on April 02, 2013, 08:22:45 PM
In b4 lock. In future please make sure all of your opinions are in line with those of our baby-boomer overlords.
Snarky comments add nothing to this discussion.
Quote from: JennX on April 02, 2013, 10:11:50 PM
Some tend to overcompensate. No different than a middle aged guy with a small penis who drives a Ferrari.
Just like with the "big trucks = small penis"....there is no evidence for this claim, just a personal (and very intimate) smear against
the vehicle in question.Liberals don't like big trucks (gas hogs), sports cars (gas hogs, above their own socio-economic status), and guns (ooh! Evil!!)....so rather than debate about those issues based on facts, they use insults against those who have the BALLS to debate like adults.
I was in a meeting last september and some flamboyant transgirls were wondering why i was so mild mannered in comparison to them, but they said they were getting used to the "new" types of transgendered people coming in. So heh I guess im the new "new"
Quote from: Beth Andrea on April 02, 2013, 10:15:46 PM
Snarky comments add nothing to this discussion.
and...
Quote from: Beth Andrea on April 02, 2013, 10:18:47 PM
Liberals don't like big trucks (gas hogs), sports cars (gas hogs, above their own socio-economic status), and guns (ooh! Evil!!)....so rather than debate about those issues based on facts, they use insults against those who have the BALLS to debate like adults.
...the hypocrisy is mind blowing...
Lol, the maid beat me to it. The "do as I say, not as I do" rule is in full effect.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on April 02, 2013, 10:18:47 PM
....there is no evidence for this claim, just a personal (and very intimate) smear against the vehicle in question.
Not sure about the truck thing... But I've dated plenty of guys with expensive sports cars, with less than impressive packages. And the "I've got something to prove attitude." YMMV.
Kia Ora,
"Different strokes for different folks !" And that's what makes the world go round...
It would seem those of whom you talk about have gone from Dysphoria to Euphoria from one extreme to the other, but after a while they should find their equilibrium, and settle down... And if not.... So what... as long as they are happy and not harming anybody, let the euphoria flow...
Metta Zenda :)
I should probably thank Beth for demonstrating the point I was making with my earlier comment.
Thanks dollsie x
At the risk of cross-posting...
Nobody gets to be born a woman or a man. It takes a childhood, puberty and a lengthy process of socialization.
Most trans people don't have a comparable amount of time or support from others - we're still waiting for society to accept us on a par with everyone else.
Transitioning or spending time ICGR (my invention, 'in correct gender role) is both about learning stuff you have to work out by trial and error whilst also unlearning lots of stuff from your conditioning.
Everyone has to start somewhere.
I don't see caricatures, I see stereotypes.
I could ask a similar question. Why do some trans people feel that our community needs our own Taliban? Whatever happened to freedom of personal expression and giving people the benefit of the doubt?
Addressed to no one, I'm just curious.
I think it's a good question. Maybe it's just there style. I mean I'm a weird girl so I watch too. I have my super girly days too but I have to say part of it no matter if your trans or not is from day to day you can express yourself in different ways rather it be a dress down day or girly girl day. Don't worry about some of the post, your question is fine and we are all learning. :)
I assume the original poster didn't mean anything hurtful or judgmental with her choice of language (we don't all have the same language or cultural background - including age and where we grew up).
Rephrasing of the question:
I have noticed that many people that I think are transgender women present in what I consider to be a hyperfeminine or stereotypically feminine manner, to the extent that it may hinder their passability (in a culture that no longer favors hyper feminine women). What are their reasons for this? I just don't get it, because that is NOT my style, and passability is very important to me. Can anyone help me to understand? I'm not trying to judge anyone, just trying to figure out why they aren't dressing and acting and speaking more like what is typical for women in today's white American middle class society where I grew up and live.
My answer:
1. Never assume that presentation isn't intentional. Take a walk in the lesbian/bisexual part of the woods, and you will discover a wide range of presentation that is completely normal. From stone butch to high femme and beyond. That choice is personal, and when women feel free to express themselves, they may land anywhere on that spectrum.
Is it fair to deny femme transwomen their most comfortable expression because they would blend in better as women if they aimed for the average femmeness-butchness?
Definitely, if passing is very important to a woman, they may chose to tone down their femmeness to something that is less than what they feel is ideal for them, because it helps them to achieve their other goal of being seen as non-trans.
Not all trans women care about passing as much as they care about being true to their inner sense of gender expression.
2. Gender Queer. It exists. It is a respectable and dignified way to live. Don't be a hater, and if you aren't a hater, please try not to come across as the police of the gender binary (attacking the middle or either end). If your advice isn't asked for, by someone you believe is violating gender norms, then your advice isn't wanted. Respect that. Move on. Yay diversity.
3. Age matters. Just as it was considered freakish 40 years ago for a woman to act as butch as the typical woman presents today, it may be considered freakish by some young people today to present as femme as the typical woman did 40 years ago. Guess what: I am 45 years old, and I formed my imprint of what feels normal for a woman's presentation 40 years ago. It is natural for my sense of 'normal' to be further out on the femme end of the femme-butch spectrum that a woman who was 5 years old only 20 or 15 years ago. My femme fashion plate may be your ultra femme caricature of a woman. If you are under 25, you probably don't want to see what I consider ultra femme. Yee hah! LADIES!!! I haven't been continually adjusting my presentation as female for 40 years, gradually adjusting to the changes in society. I'm still that little girl dying to dress like a girl and finally getting my chance. It will take me a while to catch up.
That said, there is a huge variety of gender expressions at all ages for trans as well as cis women; generalizations are just that, generalizations.
4. It's the brain, baby. Science is unanimous that transsexuality comes from the brain. Science has already observed that on the femme-butch spectrum, some varieties of intersex conditions are marked by a very strong tendency towards hyperfeminity (others towards hypermasculinity) to the point that it is one of the clinical signs used for diagnosis. It would be logically consistent to hypothesize that the same applies to transsexuality as to intersex conditions, only more so because not all intersex conditions affect the brain but transsexuality always does. Within the transsexual population, we should see a greater tendency towards extremes in gender expression off of the mean. And based on the original poster's observations, we do see that. Yay science!
5. Some transgender women who don't pass well, may be a little clueless about fashion, and out of touch with unspoken societal norms for women today, or are just lacking in the ability to see oneself through others' eyes and ears. Some of us are naturally very adept, and others it will always be a struggle. Transwomen learn and develop in their gender expressions the same way ciswomen do, over time, through experience, and with constructive feedback from supportive friends and associates. Some of us need that much more than others do. If you can give that help, do, but only if its wanted.
Some women are indeed unfashionable, clueless, or out of touch with societal norms; it is normal for them. I am a natural geek/nerd/dork, like all of the women in my family, so being unfashionable, clueless, and out of touch with societal norms is part of WHO I AM.
I also have only presented female for a year and a half now so far, so even though I get compliments almost every day about my personal style, outfits, hair, etcetera, I am still learning and getting better through practice and with the help of constructive feedback from caring people.
That said, femme is part of my natural style; I get compliments by dear lesbians and gay friends who appreciate femme, and eye rolls from dear lesbian and gay friends who appreciate butch. "I would so go for you if you wouldn't be such a freaking girl!". Thanks!
Warning: Bullying usually takes the form of people who are fashionable, have a clue, and are in touch with societal norms, judging and belittling the people who aren't.
Older people have experienced more bullying (over time) and seen more death and destruction caused by bullying (over time) on average, so on average we are more sensitive to it. This isn't political correctness; this is life and death for some very fragile people who come to a support site for support. So please understand, if you post something innocently and a bunch of people jump down your throat for it, well, you might have hurt someone's feelings, or a lot of someones'. It happens. I've done it. Doesn't mean you are bad, but it does mean your choice of words could hurt, and if you don't mean to hurt, then modulate your language.
6. Somebody mentioned: cross dressers and pre-transition MTF women. Empathy time here.
Imagine this: you experience gender dysphoria, but are not ready to live as female full time now (or if you are non-binary or male identified, ever). However, you still experience intermittent or constant profound dysphoria that is alleviated temporarily by "getting your girl on". So if you only have 15 minutes or 3 hours, per week or per month, to feel like a woman, you are going to put on every single trick in your book to get all the relief you can in every way you can. If you could wear 7 different forms of undergarments, 19 kinds of makeup, and 29 fashion accessories at the same time, you might because IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER.
You go girl, is all I have to say. More power to you.
7. Different goal than passing. Some women aren't aiming for passing; they are instead trying to ensure that their presentation is feminine enough in ways that they can control, to balance out aspects of their presentation that are extremely masculine that they cannot control, to stay in the zone where people consistently read them as a person who wants to be treated as a woman.
Maybe they're going through puberty a little late. Really, you see young girls in bad makeup and slutty clothes all the time. It takes awhile to learn this stuff. Even cis women are not born knowing how much makeup to slosh on and how much skin to show. It's just that trans women don't get to go through their awkward experimentation phase at an age where it's accepted and even expected. So, yes some do end up looking awkward and out of place and even silly perhaps.
Behavior can be the same too. Young girls often try to act like women. Or they would probably think of it as 'grown up'. But it can come off as obnoxious and ridiculous, especially to adults. But still just brushed off as being adolescents. Again, trans people don't get this acceptable growing stage. At least not as their proper gender.
Plus, as Madeline put so well, if they're older their perception of female behavior and dress may be a little dated. But they're not the only ones. Ever seen a 50 year old with a bad 80s haircut? Or makeup? Or even gah! clothes? Older cis men and women often have 'dated' ideas on proper male and female behavior as well. It's not a trans thing.
And referencing another point in Madeline's great post, 40 year old trans women don't have the advantage of 40 years of perfecting their look and manner.
Maybe some of these women you're talking about will outgrow this phase or maybe they really like how they're presenting and don't care what anyone thinks. It's finally time for them to be themselves and maybe they enjoy this.
Quote from: MadelineB on April 03, 2013, 02:15:03 AM
I assume the original poster didn't mean anything hurtful or judgmental with her choice of language (we don't all have the same language or cultural background - including age and where we grew up).
Rephrasing of the question:
I have noticed that many people that I think are transgender women present in what I consider to be a hyperfeminine or stereotypically feminine manner, to the extent that it may hinder their passability (in a culture that no longer favors hyper feminine women). What are their reasons for this? I just don't get it, because that is NOT my style, and passability is very important to me. Can anyone help me to understand? I'm not trying to judge anyone, just trying to figure out why they aren't dressing and acting and speaking more like what is typical for women in today's white American middle class society where I grew up and live.
^^This.
And I am surprised, in a forum that has generally been really warm and supportive, at how people can make thoughtless comments like the OP.
The OP said 'what i would call caricatures of women. They dress and act like stereotypical women you know with too much make up, very feminine dresses'.
If you pay attention to what was said, that is not just me but, a very high percentage of people on here and most cis women too (give or take the make up used to cover facial hair). Yes I wear girly clothes, you know the type that a stereotypical average girl would wear. Yes I have to wear more foundation than I would like. So I am a caricature of a woman. Thanks.
Quite frankly I hate that other people would think that when I walk into a room, as it shows how I am considered to be a fake, a joke, a mockery held up for ridicule. That is what a caricature is. It also shows that people are quite happy to come out and say stuff like that without proper regard for how they will make others feel.
Yep, both of those things are true. It's just not nice and I didn't really expect it here.
Well, I can't stop wearing the make up to cover my facial hair. What should I do? Butch up my clothes? How femme am I allowed to be before I become a mockery, a joke and a caricature?
I get amazed by the insensitivity, the stupidity and the down right rudeness of some of the members of this site.
You need to look at your own images, your own perception of who you are. Your own dreams and the feelings you have for yourself.
To be honest I find those who are so un-accepting of others may have deep flaws in their own make up.
If you cannot accept others, then your humanity is lacking and I am sorry for you, because you will never be able to accept yourself. I find that sad as it is something we all desire.
If you cannot take pride in yourself then acceptance of others is always going to be a bridge too far.
I will keep this thread open in the hope that maybe some people can reflect.
I realise I'm foolish as I keep hoping and believing in people.
However it is very close to being locked.
Go on surprise me!
Cindy
Wooooow...
I think a lot a girls are reading too much into the original post and finding insults where none were intended. All the op was askig was why trans women chose that particular form of ultra feminine expression when she thinks the unsubtly of that expression could appear like trying too hard or get the person clocked. As trans women we are scrutinized far more deeply than cis women when it comes to proving to a non-understanding world we are really women. There really is a better way to respond then jumping on the OP like a pack of hungry dogs for simply asking a question based on an observation shes made.
By the way "cariciture of women" can refer to this expression of femininity for any kind of women, be it cis, trans, whatever. This form of expression has been critisized by feminists for a long time as what male dominated society "expects" a women to be. It has nothing to do with reference to trans in particular.
I respect you MoO and, as I said, I pretty consistently agree with your posts, but what the OP said was insulting, whether she meant it to be or not, it was. At *best* it was ill considered, poorly phrased and insulting.
I also disagree with the more radical feminists thinking that they can empower women by telling them its not OK to be feminine, just because then people would be more likely to expect *them* to be feminine too; like there is something wrong with feminine characteristics and preferences and that femininity is to be avoided in favor of masculine attire and traits. They do not want to be that feminine and so they insult and ridicule those who do. Cis, trans, whatever.
To call anyone a caricature, cis, trans or otherwise, is a judgement that they couldn't possibly *actually* be like that and that they are fake to the point of being ridiculous and holds them up for ridicule. It is a horrible thing to call any person cis or trans.
Fair enough she might not have meant it but I do not consider myself to be jumping on the OP like a hungry dog in saying that. I am just letting her know that what she said upset me and why. She should know that.
So I'm almost afraid to post now.
How many of us have that one fancy dress or something else in our closet that we take out, try on, cry a little and put away again. Some times I wish there was a time and place I could just be around some other girls who all want to wear "that one dress" and act out what they'd like to before having to cry and take it off. I know it sounds stupid, but what the hell I'll never get that chance to be the younger, good looking girl. So wtf, let them go for it.
Kathy
Maybe the OP didn't mean it the way it sounded, maybe I am over-sensitive about this. I don't think so, but I suppose it could be that but, I just find it quite upsetting.
I can see both sides of what was said here.
Many of us feel that what some trans women do reflects on all of us.
OTOH, every women in the world, cis or trans, is entitled to her own style and I feel it is our duty as human beings to respect other people's choices as long as they aren't harmful.
I haven't seen much of what OP was talking about, but I hope when I do, I will be able to celebrate their womanhood rather than judging them.
It has nothing to do with "style" or the level of femininity. It has to do with not looking genuinely natural or looking "off" as in obviously constructed... Usually through body language and demeanor not clothing or makeup. Kinda like how femmy gay men can be effeminate all they want they will never be perceived as authentically female. Same thing in fact. Over-emphasizing hip movement when you have no hips just looks ridiculous. Overly feminine gestures will NOT make you look genuinely female especially not when you're build like a truck. Behaving like a 15 years old valley girl when you're 35 is not acceptable. Period.
The level of insecurity in this thread is appalling...
Quote from: Cindy James on April 03, 2013, 05:23:28 AM
I get amazed by the insensitivity, the stupidity and the down right rudeness of some of the members of this site.
This is a very interesting quote. It first calls a group of people out for insensitivity, and then audaciously adds that they must be stupid.
I don't believe the OP was being insensitive at all (see: "I don't mean to speak ill of anyone in the community" as well as the general tone of the message), and it's an observation that I've seen made on this site before without much hassle. I tend to agree with it, because I also see many trans women act hyperfeminine. However, I also see a large number of trans women who still act (very) masculine, and I see a large number of trans women who fall neatly in the middle. Those whose masculinity/femininity isn't overdone seem to pass best, out of the three.
It's a curious thing to observe this very diverse range of expression in trans people. There seem to be more extremes in our group, for one reason or another, and I don't have the answer as to why. Neuroscience and psychology are hardly advanced enough to give definitive answers - even the nature of the trans condition is still, for the most part, a mystery. All one can do for now is hope that the answers will be revealed in time.
As a side-note, I find beauty in people of extreme expression. I believe that human diversity is an amazing, endangered concept - society tries to reduce diversity, but nature relentlessly supports it.
I hope that, in the end, human culture loses this battle.
All of y'all can skeedaddle, this thread is locked. ElsaG, if you wish to make a closing post, contact Not-so Fat Admin.
I am responding to the thread that was locked!
I can completely understand where the op was coming from! She may have used some incorrect language but her observations were of interest to discuss and shouldn't have been demoralized.
I have never been to a LGBT support group and I have especially never been to a TG group, the reason being is I don't feel like I fit in with many of them...does this make me inferior?? No!! I just don't feel the need to be around "some" that don't mind being noticed or some that may "want" to be noticed!!
It reminds me of a recent news segment they showed on television about the equal marriage act being heard at the Supreme Court...they showed many people from the LGBT community outside but I couldn't help but notice one specific person (and I'm sure many others had also) he (or she) was dressed in a bright orange jumpsuit with some sort of animal face (reason did not know what gender) and was dancing around outside of the court house. Is this person a bad person or a sick person? Who knows...may or may not be....I will say this though...this person doesn't represent many of the people that were their but I'm sure some of the people that seen the segment thought "ya theirs another one of those whaccos".
I have stopped coming to this site mostly because it doesn't seem supportive of problems and questions we all have about ourselves. My first posts I ever made here were met with arguments about how I felt about myself. It was about how if I was having anal sex with a man it would feel to me as gay sex between two men...sorry but this is my belief...one reason I will not be intimate with a man until I have surgery. I am not saying someone else needs to view it like me but don't say I am wrong for expressing how I feel.
I have been living as myself for little over two years...I am out to only those who need to know. Unfortunately that is more then I would like since I have children and am involved with their education. Other then these interactions I am stealth...I would have a hard time convincing many that I was born a man. I do not say this arrogantly since I still see a man in the mirror many days. One reason I am well accepted as a woman in society is that I am just another average woman. This doesn't mean I don't dress girly every once in awhile. I work at a place that the dress code is jeans and a t-shirt...if I were to come into work with a dress on I would probably get some compliments but other women would probably wonder why!! If I was one that didn't pass as well I would be outed. On the other hand I went to church the other day wearing a skirt...my youngest asked if this was the first time I wore a skirt...he forgot I had one other time. He also thought I would be the only one with a skirt or dress on..I said No! I am sure their will be other women...and yes there were plenty of woman that had on a dress or skirt on and plenty that didn't. I guess what I'm getting at is I felt the need to wear a skirt because of the reason not because I needed to feel like a woman.
This is where defining what it feels like to be a woman is much more then how we dress...yes!! How we dress is very important to other woman and to ourselves but it shouldn't define who we are. I sometimes dress sexy because I am feeling that way...mostly its jeans and a nice top....but if I were to put on a pair of men's jeans and a loose t-shirt I would still feel like a woman...but I would be much more insecure with how others perceive me....even though when I was in the in-between stage I was always assumed to be a woman. What we wear as woman does define us if we want it too...for this reason I feel many of the transgendered that may not pass the best try to amp it up...I understand why they do this...I had felt the same at one time...but this doesn't help if unless you want to be noticed as transgendered and not a woman.
This is a pretty jumble up mess but I wanted to express my recent thoughts!! Thanks for reading!
Okay, there have been questions and complaints about this topic. Since I did not post in the topic, I am going to give my perspective about what happened.
The topic got pissy. People started to make ad hominem attacks. Posts had to be deleted because they were mean.
Some posters in the topic were warned, and others banned. Does the subject matter of the OP matter, and is it worth discussing? Perhaps, if it can be done in a civil manner. The thread became less-than-civil, and it was locked, and will in all likelihood, remain locked.
I made an exception here for Just Shelly, and added her comment to the mix, because she was polite in her PMs when asked about her post, and passionate about her view. I did not want to leave her post hanging out in limbo.
I have found in business and in life, being polite gets you a lot farther than being obnoxious.
Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking
The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say "You're Wrong."
If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
Begin in a friendly way.
Start with questions to which the other person will answer yes.
Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
Let the other person feel the idea is his or hers.
Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
Appeal to the nobler motives.
Dramatize your ideas.
Throw down a challenge.
- Dale Carnegie