Just noticed & reading the article, though would post. First time I've ever seem cosmo open up for us TS women.
So you have the link? I would live to read it
Quote from: FrancisAnn on April 09, 2013, 12:33:19 PM
Just noticed & reading the article, though would post. First time I've ever seem cosmo open up for us TS women.
link please!
I think this might be cool, but I trust Cosmo to be as sensitive to handling trans issues as Fox News. Will have to flip through one at the grocery isle to see.
This is in their latest online edition,
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/celebrity/exclusive/laura-jane-grace-first-year-as-a-woman (http://www.cosmopolitan.com/celebrity/exclusive/laura-jane-grace-first-year-as-a-woman)
Thank you for the link. Laura Jane's story is very inspiring
This is completely unrelated to the discussion, but I have to complain: WHEN will magazines understand that on the Web, you do NOT page an article? The whole point of a Web page is that you can scroll it down! Gaaaah!
Quote from: A on April 09, 2013, 05:16:51 PM
This is completely unrelated to the discussion, but I have to complain: WHEN will magazines understand that on the Web, you do NOT page an article? The whole point of a Web page is that you can scroll it down! Gaaaah!
+1...but with pages, they count each as a "hit", inflating their "pages visited" numbers (which is important in setting advertising fees)
1 page =1 "hit"...but an article with 6 pages, if you click all thru the article, = 6 "hits"...
Coolness. Thank you so much for sharing this
Not a bad article, I was a little annoyed about the editorial at the start and it's use of pronouns but still pretty good. I wish it had been a little deeper.
Quote from: Rowan Rue on April 09, 2013, 11:00:29 PM
Not a bad article, I was a little annoyed about the editorial at the start and it's use of pronouns but still pretty good. I wish it had been a little deeper.
100% agree.
Genuine?
Quote from: FrancisAnn on April 10, 2013, 06:07:04 AM
And this person had not completed SRS so it was not a complete story of a genuine MTF TS.
Francis, I think you have to be very careful saying stuff like this.
There are a lot of non-op women here at Susan's who think we're VERY genuine.
Quote from: Rowan Rue on April 09, 2013, 11:00:29 PM
Not a bad article, I was a little annoyed about the editorial at the start and it's use of pronouns but still pretty good. I wish it had been a little deeper.
As a journalist myself, I think the criticism of the 'misgendering' is very unfair and misunderstands the job the writer/editor is trying to do to explain the story to readers.
The beginning of the story deals with someone known to the world, and presenting to the world, first as a boy called Tommy, then Tom Grabel - a man, for whom the correct profile
then was 'he'.
Now we know, and Tom knew that the pronoun was in fact inaccurate. But the point is that the world, including Tom's wife didn't. So when 'he' came out as 'she' that was totally unexpected.
if the writer had referred to Tommy/Tom Grabel as 'she' right from the start, that would have confused readers and killed the reveal, when the world discovers Laura. All references to Laura Grace are properly gendered she or her.
I really don't think it helps the TS cause if writers, stories and publications that are obviously respectful and well-intentioned get slammed, just because they haven't conformed to an agenda they don't even know exists and which is, in any case, much more debatable than its highly vocal proponents maintain.
As a writer, I think Cosmo did a great job. As a reader, I found the piece really interesting. And as someone who still presents as a man, but defines themself as transgender i wasn't in the slightest bit offended.
FWIW, I think that a person who presents as a man, dresses like a man, talks like a man and uses a man's name can reasonably expect to be called 'he' (I do and I am) ... and when she presents, dresses, talks and names herself as female, why then she has every right to be pissed off if she is not treated, and pronouned like a lady.
Quote from: FrancisAnn on April 10, 2013, 06:07:04 AM
I agree, it was too shallow an article. And this person had not completed SRS so it was not a complete story of a genuine MTF TS. However at least cosmo has opened up some.
All members of SP should let cosmo know we are here & purchase their magazine & products. We deserve better coverage of our truly unique feminine lives.
Cosmo isn't exactly know for its depth....
The fact they did this article in the first place blows my mind.
Quote from: suzifrommd on April 10, 2013, 08:32:20 AM
Francis, I think you have to be very careful saying stuff like this.
There are a lot of non-op women here at Susan's who think we're VERY genuine.
There we go again with the HYPERSENSITIVITY..we are all adults and can read well..she (Francis Ann) did not mean to deride anybody...
lets give her break..take a chilax pill!
Quote from: Carlita on April 10, 2013, 08:46:10 AM
As a journalist myself, I think the criticism of the 'misgendering' is very unfair and misunderstands the job the writer/editor is trying to do to explain the story to readers.
I disagree, questioning the article's intro is certainly not unfair. I'm pretty sure there have been zero studies to date on "confusion caused amongst cisgender people by pronoun use in articles on transgender people"
All I said was that I was "a little annoyed" could I have elaborated? yes. Is that "very unfair criticism"? I hardly think so.
Quote from: Carlita on April 10, 2013, 08:46:10 AM
I really don't think it helps the TS cause if writers, stories and publications that are obviously respectful and well-intentioned get slammed, just because they haven't conformed to an agenda they don't even know exists and which is, in any case, much more debatable than its highly vocal proponents maintain.
I certainly don't think I "slammed" the article. I merely voiced, very briefly, a little annoyance. I thought the existence of the article itself was great, I thought it was respectful and I enjoyed reading it. I wish it had been longer and hadn't jumped around with so little structure, but hey, it's Cozmo writing a non-sensationalist article about a transwoman.
I think that's great.
As to ignorance of the issues being an excuse, that seems a rather poor argument given what the role of journalist is meant to be. So sorry you don't know how to do research? No, that just doesn't wash.
To be honest I'm a little back and forward in regards to the use of pronouns in a historical context. Personally though, I have found that those family members and old friends who slip up with my present day gender the least, are the ones who edit my historical pronouns as well.
Jumping to the conclusion from a single remark that I am a highly vocal proponent of any argument is unfair.
But then maybe you weren't. Maybe you were speaking broadly and failed make that clear.
Quote from: Rowan Rue on April 10, 2013, 04:48:55 PM
I disagree, questioning the article's intro is certainly not unfair. I'm pretty sure there have been zero studies to date on "confusion caused amongst cisgender people by pronoun use in articles on transgender people"
All I said was that I was "a little annoyed" could I have elaborated? yes. Is that "very unfair criticism"? I hardly think so.
I certainly don't think I "slammed" the article. I merely voiced, very briefly, a little annoyance. I thought the existence of the article itself was great, I thought it was respectful and I enjoyed reading it. I wish it had been longer and hadn't jumped around with so little structure, but hey, it's Cozmo writing a non-sensationalist article about a transwoman.
I think that's great.
As to ignorance of the issues being an excuse, that seems a rather poor argument given what the role of journalist is meant to be. So sorry you don't know how to do research? No, that just doesn't wash.
To be honest I'm a little back and forward in regards to the use of pronouns in a historical context. Personally though, I have found that those family members and old friends who slip up with my present day gender the least, are the ones who edit my historical pronouns as well.
Jumping to the conclusion from a single remark that I am a highly vocal proponent of any argument is unfair.
But then maybe you weren't. Maybe you were speaking broadly and failed make that clear.
I'm sorry if it sounded like I was attacking you personally, Rowan, I didn't mean to. As you say, I was speaking broadly. Yours just happened to be the post I replied to, but I was really talking about the general criticism that the piece was receiving, both here and on the Cosmo site itself. My bad for not making that clear.
On the question of confusion, it's a simple linguistic issue. A piece of writing is much easier to read if references to a boy called Tommy use 'he' and 'him' because the person being described [resented as, and was treated as a boy (later man) at the time. Trust me, it would read very oddly if their was a disconnect between the person being described and the pronouns being used.
As for ignorance, I don't think it's reasonable to expect even a well-briefed, fully-prepared reporter to be fully aware of all the ideological debates going on within this community, or any other. And if they happened to be so, they still have every right in a free country to take a decision about the needs of their readers vs the opinions of one particular group in that community.
As I think we agree, the most important thing is that the piece was published in Cosmo, that it was entirely sympathetic to Laura Grace and that it presented her transition as what it was: an inspirational journey to a better, truer state of being. That the majority of responses from cis-female readers were overwhelmingly supportive is also great to see.
I love Against Me!
If you haven't heard her song about gender dysphoria.. here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHBiylGGvc8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHBiylGGvc8)
Makes me cry every time almost :'(
Quote from: Carlita on April 11, 2013, 05:40:08 AM
As for ignorance, I don't think it's reasonable to expect even a well-briefed, fully-prepared reporter to be fully aware of all the ideological debates going on within this community, or any other. And if they happened to be so, they still have every right in a free country to take a decision about the needs of their readers vs the opinions of one particular group in that community.
And similarly, their readers have every right in a free country to leave comments on the piece regarding how they feel about how their needs were addressed. That particular argument is never effective for stifling dissent.
If Laura Grace consented to said treatment, then great. But you can hardly pretend like the extensive misgendering of trans people in media all across the globe is not an ongoing issue, or that it isn't a well-known sensitive topic. This is a complicated debate that is currently happening in newsrooms around the world.
Personally, I wasn't straight till I was gay. I wasn't cis till I was trans. And I wasn't male till I was female. Regardless of how I was perceived. And arguing that it's fair to misrepresent people's experiences in the name of making it "easier" for readers to understand seems ridiculous to me. A number of major papers and news outlets in Canada now have a set policy of not misgendering trans people, even in historical context, and they don't seem to struggle with mass confusion among their readership.
Thanks for the clarification Carlita, I appreciate that.
Yes, I'm pretty sure we do agree for the most part. I'm still not entirely convinced there wasn't a better way to have written the intro but I haven't had my coffee yet so I'm ill equipped to articulate just what that might be.
Maybe I'll take a shot at it later as a topic for a new thread :)
Quote from: Carlita on April 11, 2013, 05:40:08 AM
...it was entirely sympathetic to Laura Grace and that it presented her transition as what it was: an inspirational journey to a better, truer state of being. That the majority of responses from cis-female readers were overwhelmingly supportive is also great to see.
Yeah that it is nice to see a comment section about trans women that it is supportive and decent. If you read any article that is linked to the Drudge site, and Drudge has been going bonkers about trans issues lately. The comments' section of these articles should not be read. The comments are nasty, subhuman, and since most of the hateful comments come from so-called Christians, they are downright Un-Christstian. I get uncomfortable and depressed reading them, so I don't anymore. This same goes for Yahoo! articles. We usually get referred to as IT. On he other hand, if you watch YouTube vlogs about transition most comments are pretty decent. In fact, on one vlog I watched, a Born-again came on talking about us going to hell and everyone attacked her. I think the media is becoming a lot more sensitive to our issues.
There's a transsexual on "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" and if you are not familiar with the show, it's about a five degenerates (The Gang) who own a bar. The transsexual in two episodes is portrayed as the decent person when dealing with the Gang. She's also quite pretty (in RL she is cis). I used to be a magazine editor for a regional, niche women's magazine (currently a paid blogger) and profiling trans men and women is relatively new. I'm sure once the AP Style Guide catches up the misgendering will stop. All reporters and magazine editors follow the AP Style Guide. Some use Chicago Style (like Vogue).
I just think it's great we are finally being portrayed in a positive light in various mediums. Hopefully, some national women's fashion mags will even want to hire a trans women. It's been my dream for 10 years to work for Vogue or Marie Claire. I did start a beauty section for the one publication I worked for and I used to get all these awesome clothes and purses: YSL, Ver Bradley, all kinds of stuff. Oh how I miss swag.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 11, 2013, 01:56:14 PMI used to be a magazine editor for a regional, niche women's magazine (currently a paid blogger) and profiling trans men and women is relatively new. I'm sure once the AP Style Guide catches up the misgendering will stop. All reporters and magazine editors follow the AP Style Guide. Some use Chicago Style (like Vogue).
As a Brit, I'm not familiar with the AP style guide ... but I stand by my sense that it's reasonable, when describing someone as they were when presenting in their birth gender to use the pronoun appropriate to that gender. In this case the writer is very specifically dealing with Laura when she was Tommy/Tom and so the pronoun 'he' is accurate - particularly since Laura had not, at that point, reached the stage of coming out to herself, and so would (however uneasily) have described herself as a boy, or a man and a 'he'. The moment she defines herself as female, so does the article.
Likewise all references to Laura Grace are accompanied by the proper, female pronouns. And so they should be. I absolutely agree that it is deeply offensive and prejudicial when writers describe transitioning/transitioned TSs by their birth gender, since that is a clear and knowing attack on them, their status and their fundamental right to determine their own true identity.
For the record, I take the same attitude to my own gendering. Though I have not (yet) transitioned, I define myself as transgender. When talking to other transgenders or presenting in a female role/name I am only to happy to think of myself and be thought of as 'she' or 'her'. But on a day-to-day basis, going about in the world as a man, then I am 'he'/'him' and it seems like a kind of category error or cognitive dissonance to insist (to myself, let alone anyone else) that this 6ft tall person, with a beard, a deep voice and an entirely masculine manner and presentation could possibly be described as female, or given female pronouns. Frankly it seems ridiculous. And I say that not because I am self-hating or ashamed - neither is true - but because I am philosophically unwilling to pretend that things in life are something that they are not. And as a reporter, the same rule surely applies.
I haven't read the may issue of Cosmo yet. I remember reading a fairly transphobic article just 2 months ago. I was disgusted enough with it that I stopped reading the magazine and decided I would not renew my subsciption unless they did a good enough job of making up for it. I wonder if this is their way of apologizing? All I checked of the May issue is the letters to the editor to see if there was some sort of complaint/apology for the transphobic article in March.
Quote from: peky on April 10, 2013, 03:50:00 PM
There we go again with the HYPERSENSITIVITY..we are all adults and can read well..she (Francis Ann) did not mean to deride anybody...
lets give her break..take a chilax pill!
It was not "hypersensitivity." Francis Ann's statement was somewhat inapt. We must not marginalize our pre-op and non-op members. Transsexuality is as much a state of mind, as it is a physical expression.
For the record, Laura Jane Grace worked pretty close with the article's editor, and have approval for the use and placements of all pronouns. She made an announcement on Twitter.
Wow. Its nice to see an update on this. I heard about it from my therapist several months ago. There was an article from May 2012 of Rolling Stone about Tommy Gabel's back story. Here's the link for those who are interested:
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-secret-life-of-transgender-rocker-tom-gabel-20120531 (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-secret-life-of-transgender-rocker-tom-gabel-20120531)
Thank you.