Just saw this article today 4/13
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/13/17733363-transgender-woman-banned-from-idaho-grocery-store-over-restroom-use?lite (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/13/17733363-transgender-woman-banned-from-idaho-grocery-store-over-restroom-use?lite)
She deserved to be banned, what a moron! We don't go into the women's room and stand up to pee and expect it to be accepted and not create an uproar. People like that have no sense and are making it tougher for the rest of us. Dumb biotch!
Quote"The store security officer said he had been dealing with a problem over a couple days with the person going into the women's restroom and urinating while standing up," Lanier said.
I'm sorry, but I'm confused as to why a woman would stand in such a situation.
I would feel uncomfortable if I were to see someone standing relieving themselves while in a woman's rest room.
Why would she pee standing up in ladies room???? Not to mention a couple of days in a row! I smell perversion and use trans issue as an excuse. This person just make t- community look bad.
Quote from: mintra on April 13, 2013, 12:40:22 PM
Why would she pee standing up in ladies room???? Not to mention a couple of days in a row! I smell perversion and use trans issue as an excuse. This person just make t- community look bad.
+1
Unfortunately, the national news outlet chose to describe her as a transgendered person...they might have called her a "foolish female chooses to stand up while peeing in a public restroom", that would cover all the bases.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on April 13, 2013, 01:20:21 PM
+1
Unfortunately, the national news outlet chose to describe her as a transgendered person...they might have called her a "foolish female chooses to stand up while peeing in a public restroom", that would cover all the bases.
Well she outed herself as a guy either intentionally or because she's just a lazy A-hole. We've all been faced with that situation at one time or another during transition. The only way it can be done right and remain unnoticed is to sit with both knees and feet close together. She deserves a severe butt-kicking by the women.
In other news.... ;)
"Girls caught using mens restroom" No complaints, and no charges filed!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg4%2FKR3259%2Ffunny%2520icons%2F670d30d0eaf7dd01e2ff020268d8169d.jpg&hash=c40bc7f9b07e2de54575a8ec6c731bd1c45f623e)
That's a riot! :icon_peace:
Just a statement made by cis women, probably pissed off because there's always a line up for toilets in the women's room, I've seen it happen before!
I don't even stand to pee at home let alone in a public facility (I avoid public restrooms) It is understandable to not want to make physical contact with a public toilet, but hey, learn to hover ::)
Possibly she has not yet perfected her Crouching Tigress, Hidden Dragon Technique?
So...if she doesn't do what women are supposed to do, she deserves to get treated badly?
I agree that if you want to blend in, standing to pee would seem to be a bad idea.
But: the issue we're really talking about is she didn't act according to a stereotype about a woman. I would think encouraging enforcement of those stereotypes would greatly harm the trans community.
Was she looking at people's genitals? Was she trying to touch people inappropriately? Was she exposing herself inappropriately? If not, then this is just about stereotypes and people's comfort (in otherwords, their "ick" reaction, which they almost certainly would also have to a trans person who sits to pee but isn't lucky enough to pass perfectly) rather than safety. I don't think that would be a good thing to encourage - safety and "not feeling icky" are definitely not equivalent.
Quote from: Slanan on April 16, 2013, 10:17:25 AM
So...if she doesn't do what women are supposed to do, she deserves to get treated badly?
I agree that if you want to blend in, standing to pee would seem to be a bad idea.
But: the issue we're really talking about is she didn't act according to a stereotype about a woman. I would think encouraging enforcement of those stereotypes would greatly harm the trans community.
Was she looking at people's genitals? Was she trying to touch people inappropriately? Was she exposing herself inappropriately? If not, then this is just about stereotypes and people's comfort (in otherwords, their "ick" reaction, which they almost certainly would also have to a trans person who sits to pee but isn't lucky enough to pass perfectly) rather than safety. I don't think that would be a good thing to encourage - safety and "not feeling icky" are definitely not equivalent.
She's without excuse, everyone knows that women don't stand to pee, so of course there will be an "ick" factor from the cis females using the restroom. She knows that she's outing herself in the women's restroom, she's just being a lazy thoughtless a-hole and wouldn't get any comfort from me on this issue.
In my opinion (which really only matters to me) this person was rude. Standing to pee in a women's restroom is wrong. Let's hope she at least raised the toilet seat (and closed it when finished).
We have enough issues without purposely doing something to draw attention to ourselves.
Yes, this person has rights, but they also have certain responsibilities.
I don't understand how they know that she pees standing up. Was this a public toilet without cubicles? Yikes!
Quote from: Tesla on April 16, 2013, 11:59:38 AM
I don't understand how they know that she pees standing up. Was this a public toilet without cubicles? Yikes!
You think maybe the loud stream hitting the water and her feet pointing the wrong way might have been a tip?
Sure, if I was trying to pass and my genitals were non-typical for the place I was using, I'd try not to draw attention to myself. But that's my call. It is not my responsibility to cater to their prejudice and icky feelings. Maybe it's a good idea to do so (it probably is to some extent for anyone).
It seems odd to me that people who are likely to face discrimination because they don't follow the sex stereotypes others want to impose on them are the very people justifying discrimination on the basis of someone not following sex stereotypes they want to impose on them.
She was not thrown out because she was standing. She was thrown out because she was trans. I doubt the outcome would have been one bit different if she had been sitting but failed to pass because of any number of other things. I doubt most trans people pass perfectly, and she probably wasn't an exception to that. Maybe she can't afford clothes that fit perfectly, or has a male hairline and can't afford to cover it perfectly, or has larger feet than most women, or is taller, or has a deeper voice, or ... well, the list probably doesn't ever stop. Or she might be open about being trans. In any of these cases, even if she sat to pee, I think the reaction would have been the same: "THERE IS A MAN IN THE WOMEN'S ROOM."
So I'm fine with people saying, "It might not be smart to stand and pee in the women's room if you don't want a confrontation." Find, I'd probably agree, particularly because of society's bias against trans people. But to say that she got herself thrown out and in any way deserves that is too far - I wouldn't agree that bias is okay or that it's the victim's place to reassure others that they aren't really trans.
Quote from: Slanan on April 16, 2013, 12:34:03 PM
So I'm fine with people saying, "It might not be smart to stand and pee in the women's room if you don't want a confrontation." Find, I'd probably agree, particularly because of society's bias against trans people. But to say that she got herself thrown out and in any way deserves that is too far - I wouldn't agree that bias is okay or that it's the victim's place to reassure others that they aren't really trans.
The reality is that society has rules of etiquette and civility that we all have to follow, so we don't try to ingratiate ourselves on others who would take offense without there being some consequences. She is dragging the images of all of us down with her behavior and it's not appreciated.
Quote from: Slanan on April 16, 2013, 12:34:03 PM
She was not thrown out because she was standing. She was thrown out because she was trans.
Slanan, that's a great point. I agree with the others that she probably was unnecessarily provocative, but you're really on the mark that this is, at the core of it, trans discrimination.
However, I wouldn't nominate this particular woman as the poster girl for transgender bathroom rights.
We need to have a public discussion to raise consciousness in the cis community about bathroom issues. Cis people need to understand that they must accept trans people into their bathrooms - having us all go into bathrooms that match our birth genitals is a totally unacceptable solution. However, given the contribution of her behavior to the situation, I don't think this particular incident is the best catalyst for that discussion.
Agreed that she probably isn't the best poster child.
(the below is US-specific)
That said, sometimes in civil rights movements, you get the person you get, not the person you want, in the legal challenge. Miranda (of Miranda Rights fame) comes to mind - he still was found guilty, even with his confession thrown out, of raping a 17 year old girl after kidnapping her. Pretty disgusting specimen of humanity, yet also the disgusting specimen that created our Miranda Rights (ironically, when Miranda was murdered after being released from prison, the primary suspect refused to testify, citing his Miranda rights; He never faced trial for the murder). Virginia's sodomy law got thrown out in a case involving basically a child molester (not legally, but practically; VA doesn't consider an adult having sex with a consenting 15 year old to be child molestation, and rather than fixing THAT problem, they chose to defend the sodomy law that prohibits consensual oral and anal sex between same and opposite-sex couples). The case that threw out everyone else's sodomy law was Lawrence v. Texas and involved basically three drunk and rowdy gay guys in a love trial that provoked enough anger in the third member of the triangle that the third member called the cops to report "a black guy with a gun" (the reason police entered in the first place). Not the image HRC probably was going for of two upper-middle-class (probably white, probably men) guys demonstrating love and commitment over their lifetime! Several other people who ended up getting the rest of us huge victories in court were similarly not the nice, presentable specimens that civil rights lawyers probably wanted.
There's also the distinction between throwing someone under the bus intentionally (victim blaming) vs. simply using more presentable victims to fight bad law. But I would hope that if she challenged the law that she would get the support of the community since the underlying legal issue is relevant.
Quote from: Shantel on April 16, 2013, 12:10:38 PM
You think maybe the loud stream hitting the water and her feet pointing the wrong way might have been a tip?
:laugh: Yes, of course..