Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Community Conversation => Transgender talk => Topic started by: Ally6691 on April 14, 2013, 08:56:56 AM

Title: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Ally6691 on April 14, 2013, 08:56:56 AM
Hi. I was just wondering how many people are happy with how tall they are. I am about 5'6" and have always felt short around most guys and some girls. I was picked on about it a little bit in high school, but I've come to love it. I am an average height compared to many women I know so I think that it will make things easier as I begin transitioning.

How does everyone else feel? Too tall? Too short? Just right?
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Brooke777 on April 14, 2013, 09:30:53 AM
I'm 5'10" and love it. It's great being a tall woman. I have great, long legs, and I can wear just about anything.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Joe. on April 14, 2013, 09:33:08 AM
I'm 5 ft 10 and pretty happy with my height. Everyone tells me to stop growing but I really don't mind haha
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: WorkerBeast on April 14, 2013, 09:55:42 AM
I am 5'7'' and it used to really bother me because I really wanted to be 6'0''-6'5''. Frankly, I think it was only because the men in my family were all exceptionally tall and I wanted to be seen as one of the men. Now that I have come to grips with something I am fine with my height.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Heather on April 14, 2013, 10:01:41 AM
I kind of have mixed feelings about my height at 6'1 I'm taller than most men and women I see on a daily basis which worries me about how well I'm going to pass? But I love having long legs and because of my height I feel a since of security that I won't be attacked. But I would still like to be smaller where I could just fit in with other women.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Brooke777 on April 14, 2013, 10:08:11 AM
Quote from: Heather on April 14, 2013, 10:01:41 AM
I kind of have mixed feelings about my height at 6'1 I'm taller than most men and women I see on a daily basis which worries me about how well I'm going to pass? But I love having long legs and because of my height I feel a since of security that I won't be attacked. But I would still like to be smaller where I could just fit in with other women.

My bosses wife is 6'1", so it is not entirely unheard of for a woman to be that tall. He is 6'6" so he thinks she is the perfect height.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Heather on April 14, 2013, 10:37:43 AM
Quote from: Brooke777 on April 14, 2013, 10:08:11 AM
My bosses wife is 6'1", so it is not entirely unheard of for a woman to be that tall. He is 6'6" so he thinks she is the perfect height.
Ive met some women that are my height. It just gets to me sometimes like yesterday I was out shopping and every woman in the store was so much smaller than me. It just makes me feel so out of place. But this is something I'm going to have to accept if I'm ever going to live a happy life that I want. :)
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: XchristineX on April 14, 2013, 10:51:42 AM
I'm 5 ft 11



I don't think height matters that much if your proportioned
Nicely...or dead on weight for a girl....

I like my height....especially on one peace dresses...so
Much leg shows
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: JulieC. on April 14, 2013, 10:55:07 AM
I am also 5'6".  I come from a family of short people (I'm taller than most of them) so I never really felt short, although I always knew I was.  There were times growing up (as a male) that being short and skinny were a disadvantage but I was never unhappy about it.  Sure, there were times when I wished I was taller.  Probably the worst aspect was tall girls were uninterested in shorter guys.  Such a foolish thing to base compatibility on...but that's another topic (rant). 

But now I am grateful for my height.  It does seem to work to my advantage when buying clothes and shoes.  I'm an average size woman.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Lesley_Roberta on April 14, 2013, 12:05:50 PM
Same here, being 'short' matters right up to the point that it is correct for your needs.

Being 5'7" I can put on clothing meant for women, and at least not be too damned tall.

Being told, 'well there are tall women' doesn't help much if you rarely ever see any.

But girls wanting to be males, well at least they can always just be a guy that is my height and not fret over it.

The only reason I have to avoid 2-3 inch high heels, is my heels hate high heel shoes.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Madison_dawn on April 14, 2013, 12:10:41 PM
now i am a month ago i wasnt. was always 6 ft on my ID but went to the doc for hrt and the nurse said 5'10... I was like im not im 6'0....I shut up id rather be 5'10 then six feet so when i changed my name and address on my ID last month, I told her I ws 5'10 she changed it and now i feel better as a 5'10 woman vs a 6'00 woman.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Carrie Liz on April 14, 2013, 12:24:58 PM
No, I'm not really happy with it. I'm just over 6' tall. And HRT has helped this, because I was 6'2" for years, but apparently have shrunk a bit, but still, I am way too tall for my own liking. I was perfectly happy back in 8th grade when I was still 5'8" or so, and have hated every single solitary inch that has been added to my height since then. I don't fit on things, I always have to bend over, I hit my head on doors all the time, I stick out like a sore thumb when out in "girl mode," it makes it really hard to be cute like I want to, and really the only consolation that I have is that one of my best female friends growing up is actually even taller than I am, at a whopping 6'3".
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: big kim on April 14, 2013, 01:24:35 PM
I was put off transition because I was 6'4".I've since shrunk to 6'1 and half.I'm OK being tall I wish my width would shrink!
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Kade1985 on April 14, 2013, 01:32:01 PM
lol I'm 5'1, so rather short by any standard. Most everyone is taller than me. Most days it doesn't really bother me but yes other times I wish I were at least three inches taller lol
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Shantel on April 14, 2013, 01:32:17 PM
I'm 5' 7" just wish my waist size would match my leg inseam measurement a little more closely.  ;D
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: JoanneB on April 14, 2013, 03:12:59 PM
When I was 6ft tall 30 years ago that was just another factor that dissuaded me from transitioning. The average height of women was a lot shorter and evn a 5'10 woman was rare. These days, not so much so. Women are generally taller which is a big plus to me.

My goal height is 5'6". I figure at the current rate of shrinkage, thanks to gravity, in another 137.3 years I'll be there  ::)
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Anna++ on April 14, 2013, 03:16:33 PM
I'm 5'5".  One of my friends pointed out that I was going from a short guy to an average girl.  I'm not complaining :)
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Dovahkiin on April 14, 2013, 03:22:24 PM
I'm 5 foot 1. And I hate it. xD I'm shorter than every adult in my family (and a few non adults, like my sisters). I'm the big brother, I should be tall, but my little sister is about 5 foot 6. I hate being this short because everywhere I go I see tall men, and even kind of average men, and then there's me. There's this one supply teacher at my sixth form who's really short, but even he's taller than me. When I was younger I wanted to hit six foot! There's no chance of that now..

The other day I was complaining about my height to my mum and she told me I should be glad I'm a short woman because even though it's really hard because things aren't designed for short people (she's an inch taller than me and struggles to drive our car and reach cupboards and stuff), at least it's socially acceptable, and that life is really hard for short men... I just sat there like.. yeah.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: ~RoadToTrista~ on April 14, 2013, 03:58:13 PM
No but I don't really care about it unless I'm attracted to a guy who's shorter than me, and I do like to stand next to people who are taller than me. I'm 5'10" and a half.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Jason_S on April 14, 2013, 05:55:14 PM
No, simple as that. Being 6ft 3" is more hassle than it's worth. I've heard tonnes of people saying " I wish I was as tall as you ". Really you don't. Constantly having to duck under things, always looking down on everyone else. Other than my brother who is actually 6ft 4" I haven't met anyone taller than me so far. Especially no women, which makes me feel very insecure about wearing female clothes outside of my house. I stick out like a saw thumb wherever I go.

Also, most of my height is in my legs, I find it difficult to even find trousers to fit me in men's sizes let alone translate 36" inside leg length to women's sizes. It's an absolute nightmare. I can never try anything other than shirts on in stores as most stores only stock that size of item in warehouses when you buy online.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Lesley_Roberta on April 14, 2013, 07:26:30 PM
Chin up guys, just keep in mind, people are NOT saying to themselves, must be a girl in disguise as guys are always tall.

No, guys are not always tall, and be real, a tall girl stands out a LOT more than a shorter guy.

It's not the end of the world to be a tall girl, but this 5'7" individual is plenty aware there is nothing weird about being male or female appearing at this height.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Eva Marie on April 14, 2013, 10:26:36 PM
I was about 5'8.5"" before i started on HRT; these days i'm closer to 5'7.5" which seems to put me around the same height as many other women.

An interesting thing was that when i was younger I was quite small; 120lbs, 27 inch waist size, and short. I was about 27 when I got a growth spurt and shot up to the 5'8.5" height and my current weight of 180 lbs.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: ajwest on April 14, 2013, 10:38:20 PM
I'm 5'11'' and wish I were a couple of inches shorter, but in todays world tall women aren't such a big deal anymore.  I okay with it, if I wear heels I do draw a little more attention, but that's what I want deep down anyway.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: V M on April 14, 2013, 10:59:32 PM
I'm 6'2" and I've met genetic women my height or taller  :)  I don't worry on it much but would prefer to be about 5'10"
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Feather on April 15, 2013, 03:39:41 AM
Can someone explain to me how it is possible to shrink when you're doing HRT..?
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: ~RoadToTrista~ on April 15, 2013, 05:33:46 AM
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on April 14, 2013, 07:26:30 PM
Chin up guys, just keep in mind, people are NOT saying to themselves, must be a girl in disguise as guys are always tall.

No, guys are not always tall, and be real, a tall girl stands out a LOT more than a shorter guy.

It's not the end of the world to be a tall girl, but this 5'7" individual is plenty aware there is nothing weird about being male or female appearing at this height.

For me personally, I don't feel as though my height has much of an impact on my ability to pass, I just don't like being tall, lol.

Quote from: Feather on April 15, 2013, 03:39:41 AM
Can someone explain to me how it is possible to shrink when you're doing HRT..?

Estrogen pushes down on your bone plates or whatever, it's why women are generally shorter. Testosterone does this too but not as much. From what I hear on the boards, it's not uncommon for transwomen to be shorter by varying degrees, usually just a couple inches.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Shantel on April 15, 2013, 09:59:44 AM
Quote from: Feather on April 15, 2013, 03:39:41 AM
Can someone explain to me how it is possible to shrink when you're doing HRT..?

My muscles atrophied as did my dangling modifier, my wrists and ankles are tweety bird, I've had 2 links removed from my watchband 3 times and my wedding ring slides freely off my finger. It's caused by feminizing hormones.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Feather on April 15, 2013, 11:11:30 AM
That's amazing. I knew that part, but I thought that once you've been through male puberty it would be irrevirsible. Can the same thing happen to your voice??
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Shantel on April 15, 2013, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: Feather on April 15, 2013, 11:11:30 AM
That's amazing. I knew that part, but I thought that once you've been through male puberty it would be irrevirsible. Can the same thing happen to your voice??

No, voice is something that requires a lot of work. There are several voice tutorials on YouTube that are good, our own TessaM had a good one that made it simple. My voice is awful, because I'm lazy and have other family members that expect me to sound like dad, so I've fallen on my sword where it comes to voice. There is a ears, nose & throat specialist in Portland, Oregon that will shave vocal chords and many FtM's have experienced quick success going that route!
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Joanna Dark on April 15, 2013, 11:30:18 AM
I'm 5'6 and I really hope I don't shrink. I'm already the tiniest person almost everywhere I go.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Shantel on April 15, 2013, 11:33:22 AM
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 15, 2013, 11:30:18 AM
I'm 5'6 and I really hope I don't shrink. I'm already the tiniest person almost everywhere I go.

Great things come in small packages!  ;)
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Anna++ on April 15, 2013, 11:34:12 AM
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 15, 2013, 11:30:18 AM
I'm 5'6 and I really hope I don't shrink. I'm already the tiniest person almost everywhere I go.

Look on the bright side - you have more time to prepare when it rains!
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Dahlia on April 15, 2013, 11:51:33 AM
Quote from: Feather on April 15, 2013, 03:39:41 AM
Can someone explain to me how it is possible to shrink when you're doing HRT..?

Yes, consider this kind of stories as a case of wild  MTF imagination.

There's no scientific evidence for ' MTF shrinking while on HRT' simply because it doesn't happen.

Once your over, say, 24 your height is fixed....unless you develop  osteoporosis later in your life. This kind of shrinking is no fun because it causes severe problems and can be very painful.

What has been proven though is that puberty blockers tend to make (very young) MTF grow unusually tall and HRT/estrogens after their puberty blockers treatment don't make those unusually tall MTF 'shrink' at all.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Devlyn on April 15, 2013, 11:57:08 AM
Dahlia, are you calling everyone liars, yet again? This gets tiresome. How about taking an Art Carnegie course? Hugs, Devlyn
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Joanna Dark on April 15, 2013, 12:00:54 PM
Quote from: Dahlia on April 15, 2013, 11:51:33 AM
Yes, consider this kind of stories as a case of wild  MTF imagination.


I have no reason to doubt people's stories. I did think people maybe exaggerated chest soreness and that blew up in my face lol so I won't make that mistake again. I mean why would someone lie about that especially if someone is already short. It's quite easy to measure.

Quote from: Anna Michele on April 15, 2013, 11:34:12 AM
Look on the bright side - you have more time to prepare when it rains!

Lol you're funny...

Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2013, 11:33:22 AM
Great things come in small packages!  ;)

This is true. I would be lying if I said I'm not too bothered by my height now. Other then recently, I've worn lifts for the last like four or five years in order to be just a little bit taller. I actually thought that if I was like 5'8  would stop being trans and could just be normal. I thought girls would like me more and that it was my height that was the problem.

Now, I think it has much much more to do with my general personality which, for me, I couldn't disguise or hide. It just seeps out. But I guess this height is a great height for transition and apparently very sought after. Maybe I'm more worried HRT is just going to aggravate the things that I don't like, height and man boobage, and not change anything else. But I'm def changing and pretty fast too so it's kinda unfounded.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Shantel on April 15, 2013, 12:07:38 PM
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 15, 2013, 12:00:54 PM

This is true. I would be lying if I said I'm not too bothered by my height now. Other then recently, I've worn lifts for the last like four or five years in order to be just a little bit taller. I actually thought that if I was like 5'8  would stop being trans and could just be normal. I thought girls would like me more and that it was my height that was the problem.

Now, I think it has much much more to do with my general personality which, for me, I couldn't disguise or hide. It just seeps out. But I guess this height is a great height for transition and apparently very sought after. Maybe I'm more worried HRT is just going to aggravate the things that I don't like, height and man boobage, and not change anything else. But I'm def changing and pretty fast too so it's kinda unfounded.

Don't you waste any time worrying about being petite, most of these folks would be happy to swap heights with you hon!
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Anna++ on April 15, 2013, 12:09:38 PM
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 15, 2013, 12:00:54 PM
Lol you're funny...

I try :)

How quickly does shrinking happen on HRT?  Is height worth measuring every week to track changes?
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Shantel on April 15, 2013, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: Anna Michele on April 15, 2013, 12:09:38 PM
I try :)

How quickly does shrinking happen on HRT?  Is height worth measuring every week to track changes?

No, I've been on HRT going on 19 years and it's a long slow process, but the muscles do atrophy considerably over time.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Dahlia on April 15, 2013, 12:22:24 PM
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on April 15, 2013, 11:57:08 AM
Dahlia, are you calling everyone liars, yet again? This gets tiresome. How about taking an Art Carnegie course? Hugs, Devlyn

Show me scientific evidence and I'll take back my words  :-)

Hugs, Dahlia

@Shantel: yes muscles atrophy on HRT.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Nicolette on April 15, 2013, 12:22:37 PM
Quote from: Anna Michele on April 15, 2013, 12:09:38 PM
I try :)

How quickly does shrinking happen on HRT?  Is height worth measuring every week to track changes?

You could lose 2 inches next week, depending on how you measure yourself, or 2mm over the next 40 years. It's completely random and chances are you won't shrink. The apparent phenomenon has never been documented and is, with no intended offense, at this moment completely anecdotal. If you ask a doctor about it they will raise eyebrows. I shrank 5mm over the last 19 years. Do not bank on it. If you search on non-TG forums you will find people shrinking spontaneously for no reason without having ever taken hormones.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Anna++ on April 15, 2013, 12:25:10 PM
Quote from: Tesla on April 15, 2013, 12:22:37 PM
The apparent phenomenon has never been documented and is, with no intended offense, at this moment completely anecdotal.

That's why I was offering to document it once I start HRT.  It might be interesting!  (But I'm the girl that's keeping a graph of her weight...)
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Nicolette on April 15, 2013, 12:27:13 PM
Quote from: Anna Michele on April 15, 2013, 12:25:10 PM
That's why I was offering to document it once I start HRT.  It might be interesting!  (But I'm the girl that's keeping a graph of her weight...)

Yes, please document your progress. It may shed light on this.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Devlyn on April 15, 2013, 12:29:39 PM
Quote from: Dahlia on April 15, 2013, 11:51:33 AM
Yes, consider this kind of stories as a case of wild  MTF imagination.


Got scientific evidence?

The point is, dear, we're not here to be scientists, we're here to be a support community. Unless you're ready to scurry about measuring people, you'll just have to take their word for it. Now, are you going to apologize for being rude? Hugs, Devlyn
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: big kim on April 15, 2013, 12:42:28 PM
I have proof I have definitely shrunk,I first went to my Doctor in 1988 when I moved.I was measured at 6'4",early this year I had lost 2 and a half inches.I haven't osteoporosis,it could be an age thing(55) or as the nurse said a combination of age and losing fat from the soles of my feet.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Sarah Louise on April 15, 2013, 01:41:23 PM
I've been on and off hormones half my life, I've shrunk 1/2 inch over 68 years.  Doctor's measurement.  But, even Doctor's offices can measure you wrong, a little slouch, slight lean, etc. and you are shorter or taller.

I have never seen proof that a person shrinks due to HRT.  I have seen people grow taller when they come from an area where they eat poorly and then start a good diet and grow (my ex brother-in-law).

My sister lost 5 inches (if I remember correctly) but that was from Osteoporosis, not hrt.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Dahlia on April 15, 2013, 01:42:43 PM
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on April 15, 2013, 12:29:39 PM
Got scientific evidence?


No, there isn't,  as I wrote in an earlier post. Do you have scientific evidence then?

Perhaps these quotes make things clear:

Quote from: Tesla on April 15, 2013, 12:22:37 PM
The apparent phenomenon has never been documented and is, with no intended offense, at this moment completely anecdotal. If you ask a doctor about it they will raise eyebrows.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on April 15, 2013, 01:41:23 PM
I've been on and off hormones half my life, I've shrunk 1/2 inch over 68 years.  Doctor's measurement.  But, even Doctor's offices can measure you wrong, a little slouch, slight lean, etc. and you are shorter or taller.

I have never seen proof that a person shrinks due to HRT.  I have seen people grow taller when they come from an area where they eat poorly and then start a good diet and grow (my ex brother-in-law).

My sister lost 5 inches (if I remember correctly) but that was from Osteoporosis, not hrt.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Dahlia on April 15, 2013, 02:18:07 PM
Quote from: kkut on April 15, 2013, 02:01:38 PM
Because you can't find scientific evidence thru a google search, etc., means it doesn't exist? You say it's never been documented. You can't know that.

The Free University hospital in Amsterdam, where I live,  did extensive research on MTF and of course the fysical effects of HRT and SRS.

No mentioning  of shrinking MTF in more than 20 years of research. Not one single case. About HRT causing osteoporosis quite a few.

QuoteI found at least four reasons for height decrease on a medical website. Can HRT trigger some of the causes? I dunnoh.

So pls post this.



QuoteI doubt specifically MTF HRT affects on height is a medical study to be performed anytime soon.

No reason to. The Free University Hospital would have done so if they noticed height changes in the almost 2500 MTF they've treated the past 30 years.

I
Quotethink it's probably safe to say our height is fairly fixed.

Yes, it is.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Amy The Bookworm on April 15, 2013, 04:16:59 PM
I am 5'6 with tenishoes on. When I transition, I'll be going from a shortish man to an average height woman. Its one of the few things about my apearance that doesn't give my any disphoria.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Dahlia on April 15, 2013, 04:58:33 PM
Quote from: kkut on April 15, 2013, 04:10:47 PM
One of the four causes of getting shorter on this medical site was osteoporosis (#1), you just state that your own reliable source has documented many cases of HRT causing osteoporosis. Thus, HRT can cause people to get shorter.
Yes, but THAT'S an affliction caused by HRT, as I wrote.

For your convenience:

Quote from: Dahlia on April 15, 2013, 11:51:33 AM

Once your over, say, 24 your height is fixed....unless you (I'm talking about MTF on HRT here) develop  osteoporosis later in your life. This kind of shrinking is no fun because it causes severe problems and can be very painful. (So not the happy 'look!!! I've shrunken a few inches on HRT and now I'm much shorter! I'm so happy about that!')

What has been proven though is that puberty blockers tend to make (very young) MTF grow unusually tall and HRT/estrogens after their puberty blockers treatment don't make those unusually tall MTF 'shrink' at all.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Dahlia on April 15, 2013, 05:14:55 PM
Quote from: kkut on April 15, 2013, 04:10:47 PM


One of main reasons not listed on the four causes (it didn't claim to be a complete list) is GRAVITY.

Sure....gravity causes people to shrink, true.

But they'll shrink over decades and are a couple of inches shorter when they're of (very) old age.

Good it didn't claim to be a complete list.... that keeps some 'options open'...or should they have mentioned MTF on HRT?  ;D
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: XchristineX on April 15, 2013, 05:34:30 PM
you dont get short fom HRT IMO...

we would have had thousands of ladies eating premarin  and 17b pills like
breathmints...

hence... we havent seen every girl raving about height AFTER ffs, i say
no hrt does not make you a shorty
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: Chiara on April 15, 2013, 05:40:54 PM
I´m ok with my height (181-2cm), but i´m not okay with my leg-torso ratio. My torso is too long and my legs look like they belong on a girl that´s a little over average height, like 5´6-7 or something.
Some of you girls pretend like a big height equals long legs, that´s obviously not the case. The truth is that males are more pronounced in the torso area (longer torso, wider back etc) and females are more pronounced in the leg area (longer legs, more pronounced hips etc). That fact is actually making me doubt my transition process since some time.
Title: Re: Are you happy with your current height?
Post by: V M on April 15, 2013, 05:47:45 PM
Hi friends  :police:

It's time to take a break and find something else to do for awhile before anyone get's too feisty and get's themselves in trouble

Topic temporarily locked

Thank you

V M