Here I sit in Canada, about the free est of the free world. I will even say the much ballyhooed USA is not as free as Canada. I certainly have the edge in some key laws.
But it's convenient I am in Canada, I wonder, how much of the rest of the world is as able as me?
Saudi Arabia, yeah I can see that country being a bastion of freedom (insert snarky laughing).
What about truly impoverished nations?
What about places like China where life is cheap?
I find it ludicrous to think being transgender is a function of standard of living, but, it seems hard to ponder persons having much capacity to be who they might really be, if they live in a place that would consider it a death sentence to do so.
Do we have anyone on site that knows of anyone that has come from these unlikely regions?
Aw, shucks, we wouldn't be so ballyhooed if you Canadians didn't tell everyone how wonderful we are here in the US!
To your question, I thought ->-bleeped-<- only became ostracized in modern times? I haven't studied the issue, but I recall seeing it here before.
Well I know at some point in Indian culture the third gender was considered special and even revered. I'm not sure about other places or histories.
I'm a Canadian first nation...
@$%&+ I love the fact that hitting me is a hate crime..
I can pretty much go about my business as I please..
I even tell everyone who questions my sexuality...
I'm sure in the USA I would have been raped and beaten to
Death by now the way I carry on LOL..
It seems in canada its a pride or honor badge to have any friend
That isn't conforming...
what do you mean Canada is separated from the USA? I thought they were just another state of the union, like the UK, AUS, Oz, etc ::)
I'm from Finland, the country that is advertised as the most liberal and most free thinking country in the world. Where we are always the first to defend human rights and implement laws, that uphold the human rights and peoples free will and right to make their own choices. Where we always rush among the first, to upkeep peace.
Or that's how we are thought at school and how things are portrayed to outside world.
Unfortunately, we are starting to be among the last countries in Europe, where people of same gender cannot marry and discussion in parliament results representatives of the parliament handling the issue as such, that next pigs and man can marry. A country where being a MTF or FTM means, that you need to be sterilized if you want your gender to be recognized. And because same gender cannot marry, you also need to divorce and settle for registered relationship.
A country that in deep down is quite homophobic and transphobic. A country where if you say you are a MTF or FTM, it means that shrinks need to examine your head for a six month to a year.
So yeah, liberal Scandinavian country...at least officially and in travel agency's advertisement.
Quote from: Henna on April 19, 2013, 10:25:33 PM
I'm from Finland, the country that is advertised as the most liberal and most free thinking country in the world. Where we are always the first to defend human rights and implement laws, that uphold the human rights and peoples free will and right to make their own choices. Where we always rush among the first, to upkeep peace.
Or that's how we are thought at school and how things are portrayed to outside world.
Unfortunately, we are starting to be among the last countries in Europe, where people of same gender cannot marry and discussion in parliament results representatives of the parliament handling the issue as such, that next pigs and man can marry. A country where being a MTF or FTM means, that you need to be sterilized if you want your gender to be recognized. And because same gender cannot marry, you also need to divorce and settle for registered relationship.
A country that in deep down is quite homophobic and transphobic. A country where if you say you are a MTF or FTM, it means that shrinks need to examine your head for a six month to a year.
So yeah, liberal Scandinavian country...at least officially and in travel agency's advertisement.
O m g. That sounds like hell...I'm sooo sorry for your life.
Situation :(
Of course there are TG people in every corner of the world...but keep in mind that "tolerance" is around only because of enforcement by the State.
Most people will say they accept us, but the reality is, that if the gov't was not there to act upon them we would be screwed. LGBTaphobia, sexism, racism, etc are apparently a natural function in the human mind.
imho
Yeah, there are trans people all over; however, the society in question could place unnecessary constraints on gender expression and transitioning. As a result, it may appear that there are more transgender people in open societies.
Hi,
Commonwealth Thank you . not a state, New Zealand down under,
I have been in Austraila two times & coverd many 1000's of miles by plane , road & train .There are quite a few rednecks & non accepting people, not being trans or a dresser , iv only had acceptance where ever i have gone .& i will be there again next year ,
Thailand a lovely people spent time with them again i was accepted as one of them , up further it can be very different as you go some other parts of asia . not been there so i cant say,
In the main a very accepting nation though there will allways be some for what ever reason wont accept people of difference, no matter what it is about them or us,
It all comes down to the person concerned as to thier attitude so if acceptance is to be gained then you have to be accepting of others as well some thing some trans & dresser's seem to forget . so again its about attitude & respecting others,
In our islands most island people dont have a issue, though when the English came here over 160 years ago they did not accept those people or thier culture so remember the western people have a lot to answer for so again when thier attitude changes & for many it seems to be changeing then others may accept more fully,
...noeleena...
Kia Ora,
I've just watched this youtube doco on the Warias 'Transsexuals Muslims of Indonesia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJTzMHDaOlg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJTzMHDaOlg)
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on April 19, 2013, 08:25:10 PM
Here I sit in Canada, about the free est of the free world. I will even say the much ballyhooed USA is not as free as Canada. I certainly have the edge in some key laws.
It seems to me you are not really aware that you are actually part of the United States of Canada. Which should be separated from Jesusland. (This map is better than others because my state is NOT part of Jesusland):
Jesusland 2008 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eamon1916/4807266680/#)
--Jay
Is tolerance and acceptance a function of others or of yourself?
I have not knowingly received negative gender/sex discrimination since going FT.
I do not discriminate against others.
But that comes with a big cost. You have to accept people for who they are and what they believe. And not just accepting people who accept you and rejecting those who do not.
Is this global? Of course it is. I have never met a human being from any country that wasn't a human being, and I have travelled far.
Borders are very artificial, and rather silly.
Some comments are quite good.
Liked that map aleon :) I wonder how many in the US are a ware of the Canadian Conspiracy :) You might not realize that Canada has been slowly absorbing you for quite some time :)
Acceptance and tolerance is as Cindy mentions, a two way street.
I don't really see squat in the way of acceptance of ME by the religious world, so they shouldn't be offended when I give it right back to them.
They see us in medical terms, fine, I consider being religious to be a clinically summed up condition as well. Hey I could point out how believing in imaginary people makes you technically crazy. And that's just the beginning.
I am aware of why so much of us, makes them so 'afraid'. We undermine their sense of security, we ruin their much needed rigidly defined reality. It was adam and eve not adam and steve and adam and eve who became adam and george and adam and bob who became eve.
But they don't seem to be willing to accept, that they are a very scary bunch themselves. Every single time something bad happens, the knee jerk response is to blame it on the current round of religious hate fest between religious groups. And let's be blunt, telling me 'well they are not representative of religion and religious people as a whole', doesn't make me feel safer.
It's sad to think, there might be soooo many more of us, if not for the fact they need to hide just to protect their lives.
My doctor just got back to the US after a few years working in rural Africa. When she was prescribing me T, she told me that she came across very few trans folk in Africa. 'There should be more,' she said, 'but there aren't.'
It got me thinking that in a way it could be about wealth and standard of living. If you're living a rough life in rural Africa, you might not be able to afford to 'be yourself' because there are so many other things to worry about. Or perhaps it's a fear thing because it's even less acceptable than in more developed parts of the world. Or maybe you just don't have exposure to trans knowledge and role models, so you just consider yourself sad and broken and never really discover the cause. I dunno, but it sure got me thinking.
Hope that was at least sort of related to the topic.
Global. I would like to show you what life is as a TG in China. Maybe after reading you will understand why my entire family have an iron solid way believing I am destroying my self in madness by starting female transition.
A conservative estimation proposed that there should be 400 000 transsexual (not TG) folks in China , but only a few thousand dare to come out (Book: Wu XingRen 吴兴人. Correcting the mistake of God 纠正上帝的错误. Shanghai Literature and Art Press. 1 Aug. 2005). The discrimination is serious, partially due to communism which ignores human rights; partially because of Confuciusm, the major religion of China for 2 200 years. Confuciusm is transphobic and believes that being transgender is worse than death. It advocates that TG folks would better seek death than going through transition. For thousands of years, castration has been the harshest punishment second to a death execution, if not equal to. In addition, only before the 1980s, lynching execution of LGBT people would receive no punishment from the law court, because it was heroism, because it "cleansed" the society.
In addition, the Confuciusm advocates that a man's body does not belong to himself. Instead, it belongs to his parents, especially father (women? They are no more than tradable goods). (身体发肤，受之父母，不敢毁伤) Perhaps now you understand why corporal punishment is common in Asian education: Parents are only "adjusting" their own property by hitting their children's body, and the police never take care about it unless it has caused death or disability. In the old times, parents had the power to order their children to die who had to obey (父要子亡，子不得不亡), and even cutting hair without parents' permission was a crime.
Nowadays, even if you are 40 or 50 years old, perfectly an adult, to access the assessment of GID and to obtain the permission of SRS, you still need written approvals of your parents. According to the people in the TG community who I know, most have to produce a fake signature because otherwise it would be absolutely impossible to get, although this might bring them certain legal headaches thereafter.
I once heard that "if ignoring religion factors, tolerance towards LGBT is often proportional to levels of democracy". Although the Chinese constitution says all human beings are born equal, there is no specific law ensuring it. In 2010, a governmental action was performed on a celebrity, the famous dancer Jin Xing (金星). She was forbidden to appear on the TV because "her transgender identity could have negative effects on society" as stated by a government administrative order. Jin Xing performs mostly overseas in US or Europe but is not quite accepted in China due to her "dirty backgrounds". In fact, transsexualism is approximately equal to "sexual worker" in many traditional people's eyes.
OK, although have been discriminated, Jin Xing is so talented and she fought a path through and has achieved a decent life. How about other people who do not have such a strong position? There was a piece of news in 2007 when a transgender singer committed suicide because of discrimination. Her suicide note was: "我曾经以为，我变了性，就可以改变我的人生，可是变完性以后，却被人当动物看......中国的变性人不只一个人，可能每个人都像我一样，正在承受着不幸。为什么人们一但知道了你的变性身份，就会歧视你呢。我老老实实的做人，却要被人当动物一样围观。" {Translation: "I used to think, if I change to my desired sex, I can thus change my life. However, after my sex change, I was immediately discriminated like an animal rather than a human being... There are many more transsexuals besides me in China, and perhaps all of them are suffering just like me. Why people immediately turn to discrimination against you as soon as knowing your transgender past? I am always an honest human being, yet I am constantly surrounded and watched like an animal."}
There was another piece of news in 2012 about a Masters Graduate of Fudan University (China's top-5 university). She mentioned in a journalist interview that after she went through FT and went for a job interview, at first the interviewers showed a perfect satisfactory. However the moment when they heard that she had been a boy, they did not even bother to hide their dramatic change in expression and rejected her with no hesitate. After surgery, she desperately became unemployed and even once had to work as a wine server in a nightclub for 2 months (in Shanghai, this is not far from a sexual worker). She was even starved for a period living on the donation from friends although she had nice skills and a Master's degree. Once, the headmaster of Fudan University helped her to get a position in a high school. Sadly, when the parents of her students heard about she was a TG, they gathered at the school protesting that she was evil and will destroy their children and the school must kick her. Soon the school surrendered to the pressure and fired her. Another sad story, yet not new on this land.
To live a life in China as a TG, if one does not want to live as a sexual worker, he/she must be extremely careful and keep a full stealth. If their appearance does not pass well enough and betrays them, they will very likely to be rejected from house rental, restaurants, schools, gyms, work places, etc. They will have total failure struggling to live a normal life just because they are TG.
In fact, even in Australia, most students who were born in China who know my past tend to keep a distance from me, as if I am bearing a deadly infectious disease. Every time when I see them sitting together talking and try to go to sit with them, those who know my past will immediately stand up and find an excuse and go away. Several Asians, including Indonesian, Malaysian Chinese, and Chinese, paid extra money (seemed $100 such) to the University Village only to move away from the house that I am living in. Of course there are many good people among the Chinese, but I am really feeling tired of dealing with "my people".
People can change their legal gender identity in most of China provided that they have gone through a complete SRS and are sterilized. Plus, because homosexual marriage is illegal, all existing marriage will break up. However, in China the "legal" identity change is actually not legislation but an administrative instruction from the National Bureau of Police, which means this policy can easily be changed or cancelled at any time under the will of the Chief of the Police. This instruction was given in 2008, but actually the police agencies in most places were reluctant to put it into action until the 2010s, and it has still not come into effect in many places. In mainland China, it is somehow surprising case that post-op TS folks are allowed to marry after a legal identity change but it is not actually a sign of how friendly the society is towards TG. Instead, it is due to a complete blank of laws regarding transsexualism. For example, once a MTF person goes through a legal identity change, the only laws that fit on her thereafter will be the laws regarding birth females, and similar for FTM people.
To get the identity change, one must provide a certificate from a 3A level hospital (the highest level) illustrating that he/she has gone through a complete SRS, that he/she is sterile, and that his/her new genitals are typically male/female. What is confusing is that if they have not had SRS in one of the major public hospitals of China (e.g., overseas, or in private clinics), they might be rejected from this certification with no clear explanation, even if they have perfect new genitals. I suspect it might be some kind of local protectionism, but this is only my suspicion. I know a MTF transsexual friend, X. XT., who has had her SRS 4 years ago in Thailand. She is now living in Hong Kong under a temporary visa, but her civil records are still in Beijing. When she flied back seeking a legal identity and name change, several hospitals all rejected her request for a SRS certificate. She told me that in one of the hospitals, a kind doctor had already written the certificate but the head of the hospital refused to approve. With a few attempts she gave up. Now, after 4 years, she still has to live as a man in Hong Kong, partially because all her identity documents are still male, partially because fear of losing her job since lawyer is a sensitive career.
Nevertheless, because the identity change is not a law, the Ministry of Education refuses to recognize it and constantly rejects the change of education certificates for TG folks. If they go through transition and change their legal identity, the certificates will appear to belong to another person, "the man/woman" who has haunted them for decades. Therefore they must be prepared to live with no educational backgrounds, if they have missed the chance to complete their SRS and legal identity change before graduation. Sometimes it is even worse in some schools where their graduate and degree certificates will be based on their gender when they entered the school and even a legal identity change is not recognized. Furthermore, there is a same problem for those who are studying overseas (including myself), because if we would like to bring our degrees back into China, we will have to go through a local certification of our degrees by the Ministry of Education of China. We will have only one chance to do it -- normally at the time when we step into the country for the first time after graduation, and the certificate will never be changed once done. I have a friend, H. Y., who has been studying in the UK for a Master's degree. When she discovered that degree would be forever bound to the man because she received the local certificate as a male, she had to go into a PhD course although she does not like it at all. In addition she used all means to persuade her family to support her SRS before graduation. She was lucky as her mother at last supported her and this April she has just come back to UK from her SRS in Thailand. This is also one of my major concerns.
By saying "a TG will very likely to be rejected from house rental, restaurants, schools, gyms, work places, etc.", I mean also public schools. I know another MTF, S. YT., studying in a public university (Northeastern University of China) who would like to go through FT. However, recently, the university has given her a written notice stating that she will be discharged from the university if she goes through SRS without "permission of the school" which permission in fact never exists. Funny enough, a university believed it is in charge of SRS permission! But this is the reality. You can see the letter as attached. I am sorry that it is only in Chinese lacking an English version. To protect privacy, I have to mosaic her name.
She asked for a Leave of Absence because of severe depression, being ex-tremely suicidal and losing the ability to study. According to the last 3 lines of the notice, "She (name) must keep in close contact with the school during her therapy period and must always keep timely reports of her therapy status. She (name) will be discharged if she goes through SRS without permission of the university" (and obviously such a permission will never exists). Note this is a formal written notice given by a university officer representing the school. If she was only leaving because of a broken leg or car accident, there would never be such ridiculous requirements. No wonder why she has got the severe depression -- any person will easily get into depression in such a social environment.
She is not alone. Another MTF friend of mine, C. PL., who is studying clinical science in Southern Medical University (also public), mentioned the school stated the same that if she goes through SRS, they will discharge her because of this. By the way, do you know what the local psychiatrists did to her when she went to them? They prescribed testosterone shots and several medicines that I cannot name, trying to turn her back into a man. Unfortunately this group of psychiatrists call this a "cure of GID". By the way, we have found that in China, different psychiatrists seem to harbor very different views towards GID and its therapy – it is a Russian roulette to find a therapist.
If you would like to look through as much Chinese local news as possible about TG (Google Translator will help), especially the comments below which reflect the common public opinions, I am sure you would find the same. There are even widespread rumours saying we all have less than 40 years of life and nearly everyone in China firmly believes in that. On Chinese forums I always hear people talking about 人妖 (slang for MTF transsexuals, literally means human demon) having shortened lifespans. However according to various academic reports, it cannot be further from the truth. A few years ago, TV programmes, newspapers and magazines call us human demons, but there has been a significant decline in recent years, which is a good sign.
How about parents? Their first reaction to my coming out text was:" no you will be discharged by university and deported by the Australian government!" After I took a week or so to prove them that it is absolutely impossible to discriminate LGBT in this way in Australia, they began to believe I was not serious and "naive, impulsive, crazy". Then I suggested them to visit any of the local psychologists, and they no longer say I was crazy, but began to show me how hard life will be if I go through transition, and their disappointment. My mother once said: "you were a decent human being, but want to become a human demon! That's madness. We will never allow that! Do you know how much effort we have made, how much difficulties we have experienced to bring you up, to educate you a decent man? We never had any entertainment, we never had any enjoyment; all was devoted to you! Are you going to repay us, repay our white hair and decades of hard-working by becoming a human demon?" My father added:" If you should become a human demon, please do not disclose any relationship with us. Never use your name and family name, never say you were our child, never come to your birth town, never say you were born here, and never talk about your education records! We don't want to be a human demon's parents; we don't want to be looked upon; we don't want to be that kind of famous."
Luckily, these were not face-to-face talks; they were online chats. If they have been face-to-face talks, for several of the times they would have ended up by my father swinging his fist and I flee from the house. However, my parents must be masters in emotional manipulation; they can always accurately hit my weakest point in a few words and make me depressed for days.
Mon and dad actually believe I am totally destroying my life in madness. Mother complained a few days ago that because of me, both of she and my father have gone into tears for numerous times. Now they feel so depressed that they are not feeling healthy and have resigned from their jobs. Thus they will have a rather low income and they will cut off any support to me. I feel so sorry for them feeling sick because of me. My mom asked me to pending my transition, stop medication, and only crossdress in private so that I can avoid discrimination for my career life, until I make a big fortune or retire... Several of my TG friends agree with her, but I feel reluctant to accept.
To tell another story, I know a friend, Y. XB., whose uncle is the local deputy police chief of the small town where she was born. Two years ago, the family withdrew her from the university without the confirmation of herself, and then made a long-range flash raid across 3 000 km to capture her from the univer-sity using handcuffs. They planned to lock her in a small dark room forever. Yes, of course these are absolutely illegal, but even the university offered ac-quiescence. Fortunately, after a few months under illegal imprisonment, she managed to escape by climbing over a wall. Nevertheless, until now, she doesn't have any ID documents or education certificate or driving licence, be-cause these have all been detained by her family, which makes life extremely hard. She could not even find a decent job because she has no education certificate, and she is still using my bank account because she could not open one of her own without an ID document.
I know that China is obviously not the worse place in the world for TG folks. But anyway I am a coward and never dared to come out even a little before leaving that country.
(https://phl0xg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pqhsqxnHQszgTH3qUSFeIPZR75viW30sp3UtfK_drd6eZVaNUsFXdZHDW_H2O77KhzHZqH9e70SPqxlMgSrJgCLGNT2oQgOzA/2.jpg?psid=1)
PS: Yes I have known a lot of TG folks in the Chinese TG community. However the name abbreviations listed are only to distinguish persons and may or may not be accurate. For translation of Chinese names I use this form: Surname -- Given names, e.g., Jin (金) Xing (星), Wu (吴) XingRen (兴人).
Just about spittaked on the term "jesusland" XD
I would imagine that a lot of people's stories stay untold even in progressive or wealthy countries, so gosh knows what it's like very far outside of any given sphere of experience.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on April 19, 2013, 08:25:10 PM
I find it ludicrous to think being transgender is a function of standard of living, but, it seems hard to ponder persons having much capacity to be who they might really be, if they live in a place that would consider it a death sentence to do so.
Do we have anyone on site that knows of anyone that has come from these unlikely regions?
Hi
If you remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs theory, "Self-Actualisation" was at the top of the pyramide, "Safety" was second from the bottom, just after basic physiological needs ie. food, water, sleep etc..
I'm not sure that things are always as clear cut as described in Maslow's model but if you are faced between a choice of survival and fully living and expressing your inner identity, survival probably comes first and this probably explains why TG's are less visible in some cultures than in others. In a similar manner, there is far less clinical depression in countries where daily life is just about surviving than in the rich world where we have have much higher expectations.
That being said and concerning us, I believe that sometimes, the need to express that inner identity is so strong that it can become a question of survival. I think about this a lot as I try to navigate between the need to survive, which starts with having a job and maintaining relationships, and the need to put an end to an inner conflict that I have struggled with for more than 50 years.
Bises
Donna
Wherever I go in this globalized world....I see....a sea of people in BLUE JEANS.....drinking COCA COLA....while listening ROCK'N'ROLL...in an I-PHONE....and everywhere you can find somebody who speaks AMERICAN..
So, yeah, we are very "globalized," everything that happen in the world is instantly known everywhere...we are so globalized that I know about the struggle of our sisters and brothers in China and Indonesia...I also know of the most pro TG/TS country in the world...ARGENTINA...where you do not need anybodies permission to get an SRS or HRT or change your name, and homosexuals marriage is the Law..WOW
Despite been religious I would agree that most of the injustice and lack of progress we are entitled as human beings..is due to religious extremists....May G-d condemn them to eternal hell
Quote from: peky on April 19, 2013, 09:30:00 PM
what do you mean Canada is separated from the USA? I thought they were just another state of the union, like the UK, AUS, Oz, etc ::)
I know a number of Tory types and almost all of UKIP would like that. But I digress.
Getting away from any politics as I loathe politics, transsexualism is expressed throughout every culture in the world and there is no statistically significant variation in transsexuals from one country or one ethnicity to the next. It is a very human condition. I'll never understand the need to divide and categorize. Can't we all just appreciate and celebrate how much we have in common rather than focus on what little differences we have?
Thank you sylvannus.
That was most interesting.
Sylvannus, I wish none of what you had said was true, but sadly you would know more than me.
It's sad that the Asian world has such severe expectations of its people. I constantly hear from other Asians how parents have iron solid unyielding ways when it comes to their kids. So many have such high education levels, but, at the cost of such a high suicide rate too. And that is for the average Asian youth.
I would never tolerate a friend being treated that way, even by a parent.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on April 20, 2013, 02:14:15 PM
It's sad that the Asian world has such severe expectations of its people. I constantly hear from other Asians how parents have iron solid unyielding ways when it comes to their kids. So many have such high education levels, but, at the cost of such a high suicide rate too. And that is for the average Asian youth.
Kia Ora Lesley_Roberta,
Thailand would be the exception...Thailand has one of the most [if not the most] visible trans-population...Plus trans-legal rights are improving there too...
Metta Zenda :)
QuoteIt's sad that the Asian world has such severe expectations of its people. I constantly hear from other Asians how parents have iron solid unyielding ways when it comes to their kids. So many have such high education levels, but, at the cost of such a high suicide rate too. And that is for the average Asian youth.
Really Lesley? Asians compromise a huge number of people from a equally large continent. I really don't think you can just lump them all together like that (even if that stereotype is true which I'm not sure it is). Even in your own country, are people from Quebec the same as people from Vancouver?
I did like the question "how global are we really?". I love hearing from people living all over the world and what there life is like. Since I will be unlikely to be able to travel to any of these places in the near future it offers me a glimpse of what life is like in other places. I really appreciated the posts from Sylvannus, Kuan Yin, and Henna because I learned something about there countries. I was most shocked by what Henna wrote because I was one who thought Finland was about as progressive as it could get.
I think we all, regardless of where we live, are subject to some discrimination. At least for some of us discrimination is not public policy. I like where I live. Even if technically I live in Jesusland???
Actually Julie, Canada even though it is the second largest country in the world, it's mostly empty space. In Canada's north, have a cell phone handy during an emergency is actually not worth as much as a good thermal blanket a couple of liters of water and something to start a fire with. There is no cell coverage in a lot of Canada, as it is simply that big. And if your car breaks down, you stay in it.
We have lots of the Asian community in Canada, and like most ethnic groups, they tend to bring home with them.
That's typical of our major cities though. Little Japan, Little China, Little this little that little the other place.
My home town has a Japanese restaurant, that's the extent of Japan here though. We have I think two Chinese restaurants. The town has no little versions of anywhere though. But I hear of the biases of the points of origin. I delivered furniture for Leon's in the 80s in Toronto. A lot of the cliches, sadly, they are not nice in a lot of cases, and I saw examples all day long all week long. But there isn't really any of that outside the cities here in rural Canada.
I suppose that is why I ditched Toronto after 4 years. I didn't belong there. I suppose I am a Canadian version of a 'hick' :)
The Asian portion of Canada though is numerically sufficient, that popular thought is Cantonese should be our second language, and the only reason it isn't is well I don' know. We suffer the French because they're spoiled. Oh and being as I am a Quebecker, I am in my right to be annoyed with Quebeckers :)
Sweden is also home to contradictions. So many freedoms, and yet not. I'm of Scottish origins, and while it is true my countrymen wear kilts, we also have a large portion of the world's greatest male chauvinist jerks. Bond, James Misogynist Bond (well that's how most seen Mr Connery hehe).
But I think the people of the Asian portion of the planet, may well have something of a lock on rigidity when it comes to non religion driven intolerance to changes in social constructs. Japan, likely the most insular nation on the planet. If you were not born there, and your spouse, your kids, even if born there won't be considered real Japanese. India is also home to some very rigid caste based thinking.
Quote from: JulieC. on April 20, 2013, 05:48:05 PM
. I really appreciated the posts from Sylvannus, Kuan Yin, and Henna because I learned something about there countries. I was most shocked by what Henna wrote because I was one who thought Finland was about as progressive as it could get.
Kia Ora Julie,
I should point out, I live in Aotearoa NZ...The land of the the world's first transsexual politician and Major...
However my trans-ness spreads across three countries...UK where I was born and got my gender recognition certificate and new 'female identified' birth certificate issued. Australia I'm an Australian citizen[naturalised back in the mid 1970s] and now have female on my Australian passport. And NZ where I had the surgery and where I presently reside [have done for the past 26 years]...
Life Downunder [for me personally] is good...Here in NZ there's legal recognition for trans-people and protection by law from discrimination... However people are people [only "human"] so discrimination does exist here in NZ, and for some Kiwi trans-people life can be hell-Like anywhere else in the world I guess...
http://www.dol.govt.nz/er/minimumrights/transgender/ (http://www.dol.govt.nz/er/minimumrights/transgender/)
Metta Zenda :)
Philadelphia , Pennsylvania, USA is a magnet for transitioners from several states. We have the oldest LGBTQ book store in the country ( 1978). The Mazzoni Center is an informed consent LGBTQ health provider. It takes 2 months to get an appointment for HRT due to the demand and they have at least 4 PA's. The William Way LGBTQ center has offices where Therapists meet clients in a safe and welcoming environment. My therapist calls my name from a balcony and no one cares or looks at you like you are strange because we are all exceptional there. The center is located in the Gayborhood and the street signes have rainbows on them and rainbow flags fly with pride. A City Councilmen, Denni O'Brian is sponsoring leigilation to mandate a gender neutral bathrooms in all city buildings and all new construction. Also, he is sponsoring legiasltion that HRT and SRS be covered in health care plans with employers that offer plans in the city. His aim is to make Philadelphia PA the most LGBT friendly city in the USA. We are having a very large Trans* conferance June 13-15, 2013 with hundreds of panel dissussions at the Philadelphia Convention Center. I will be there, on HRT and starting to express in clothing ( goals, very excited).
We also have hate crimes and bigotry from binaries.
We need to spend our money at Trans* friendly stores, companies and employers. (Trans*Proud) could be the mark of exceptionalism.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on April 19, 2013, 08:25:10 PM
Here I sit in Canada, about the free est of the free world. I will even say the much ballyhooed USA is not as free as Canada. I certainly have the edge in some key laws.
But it's convenient I am in Canada, I wonder, how much of the rest of the world is as able as me?
Saudi Arabia, yeah I can see that country being a bastion of freedom (insert snarky laughing).
What about truly impoverished nations?
What about places like China where life is cheap?
I find it ludicrous to think being transgender is a function of standard of living, but, it seems hard to ponder persons having much capacity to be who they might really be, if they live in a place that would consider it a death sentence to do so.
Do we have anyone on site that knows of anyone that has come from these unlikely regions?
Yes, we have members here who are from countries that still execute gays, lesbians, and transgenders.
Kia Ora,
Now this might surprise some members... Transsexualism in Iran...Well worth a watch...
http://www.roozvideo.com/video/3301/transsexuals_in_iran_part_1_of_6/ (http://www.roozvideo.com/video/3301/transsexuals_in_iran_part_1_of_6/)
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: sylvannus on April 20, 2013, 09:45:04 PM
Alright, Asia is a huge place having a current population of over 4 billion. With 1000-5000 years of human civilization in most places, ethnic backgrounds become extremely complicated. It tends to be very different from place to place not being restricted to political boundaries.
In general, the more westernized an Asian country is, the better it treats LGBTI, whereas communism does the opposite. In terms of religion, Buddhism and Christian are somehow more tolerant, while Confuciusm and Islam are worse.
Far East, or East Asia, includes China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, part of Vietnam, and Singapore. In history, these places have been under profound influence from the Chinese civilization and Confuciusm. It is probably the most mysterious place in the eyes of US/EU folks. The society there is actually intolerant against LGBTI whatever the law says. Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, and Singapore are more westernized, so normally people respect the laws better. Whereas in mainland China, although the constitution says every human being is equal, there is no specific law protecting the equal opportunity for LGBT, and the society do whatever they wish. Only 40-50 years ago there were lynchings executing LGBT which was considered heroism and would never be punished by a law court.
People can change their genders in most of these places provided that they have gone through a complete SRS. Need to be sterilized if you want your gender to be recognized? Of course. In most places people can never marry after legal identity change. And because same gender cannot marry, you also need to divorce and settle for registered relationship. In mainland China, it is a special case that post-op TS can marry after a legal identity change. This is not actually because how friendly the society is to TG, but due to lack of law regarding transsexualiam. For example, once a MTF man goes through a legal identity change, the only laws that fit on her thereafter will be the laws regarding birth females, and also a similar case for FTM people. However, as I mentioned, the society is intolerant against LGBTI whatever the law says.
How about North Korea? China is now only partially communism while North Korea is still completely that. I have never heard about LGBT existence in North Korea. It is most likely that all of whom have been accidentally exposed must have be executed in silence with no doubt and no sentencing, just like what people used to do before the 1980s in China.
The Muslim world. I heard that Southeast Asia Muslim countries tolerant LGBT better than Middle East/Middle Asian Muslim countries, but I am not completely sure. Admittedly I know little about muslim.
The Buddhism Southeast countries, Thailand etc., are probably the best places for TG folks. However note that a transsexual in Thailand can never really change his/her legal identity into his/her desired gender, and will forever be bound to the birth gender, which is even worse than the Far East.
India and Nepal etc... Traditionally the Indian society severely discriminate female, so for MTF, it would be a difficult place. Even the Buddhist Scriptures which were written here say that the true believers will all become male when going to the heaven after death, and this is considered as a huge pride for female believers!
This is a map from wikipedia about where TG people can change their identity as blue means more or less OK. It is still not optimistic worldwide. Henna, if you are still in... could you explain what is happening with Finland on this map?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fa%2Fa0%2FWorld_concerning_gender_identity-expression_laws.png&hash=e67a9d593c2791a27ff775d3fe3676f6e60ec98a)
Kia Ora Sylvannus,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Finland)
"In Finland, homosexuality has been legal since 1971 and declassified as an illness in 1981.[1] Discrimination based on sexual orientation was criminalized in 1995 and discrimination based on gender identity in 2005. Transvestism was declassified as an illness in 2011!"Metta Zenda :)
Kuan's link covers my country very well.
You can get your gender recognized legally when the following takes place:
- You fulfill the TS diagnostic criteria, over 18 years of old, sterilized (basically sufficient amount of time on hormones), living two years in the correct gender and if married, a permission from your husband/wife, that they allow the marriage to be changed into registered relationship.
I do acknowledge, that we have a good system, as having something is better than nothing and compared to China (horrible to read Sylvannus account what is happening there), this is like being in different planet.
However, our system has many flaws and things which are against human rights. Also even when things are written down into laws and regulations, that we should have two professional TS clinics for diagnostics, we only have one and the second clinic consists of doctors, doing their rotation. I unfortunately have to use that clinic and let me tell you, going there for "examination" and for "diagnostics", has nothing to do with science or therapy. It just feels indifferent for the staff. It's like lottery there who gets a what diagnose and when.
My eyes have just opened to the flaws of our system, especially since reading this forum and reading how things work in Canada, Australia and even in USA. Yes I can get even SRS here for free, but everything takes forever and the system is very arbitrary. It's not therapy, more like a series of questions that you have to answer "correctly".
I would rather pay money, to get a professional therapist and doctor, with whom to discuss about myself and my future.
And for treatments here it seems that most older people who have work, start the treatments on their own in any case, as the official system just takes forever.
I just feel that I'm being punished over and over again in this country, for being who I am. We have also a compulsory military service here and I declined that a long time ago, as I just couldn't picture myself with among thousands of men. I had two options, either jail or do a civil service, which is twice as long as the military service (meaning it's just a different type of punishment). This is also one thing that has been noted by Amnesty and EU several times, that we actually have people in jail, who have been put there because of their opinion. Not very different from China...
There has been quite a bit of stereotyping going on in this topic, which is not in keeping with the function of a support site. We don't need to classify entire cultures as "spoiled," "chauvinist jerks," and "rapists."
Even the swipe at Christians ("Jesusland") as entirely unsympathetic to transpeople is unfair.
Let's think about our posts first, before bashing other cultures and nations.
Thank you.
Quote from: Henna on April 21, 2013, 12:17:32 AM
Kuan's link covers my country very well.
You can get your gender recognized legally when the following takes place:
- You fulfill the TS diagnostic criteria, over 18 years of old, sterilized (basically sufficient amount of time on hormones), living two years in the correct gender and if married, a permission from your husband/wife, that they allow the marriage to be changed into registered relationship.
I do acknowledge, that we have a good system, as having something is better than nothing and compared to China (horrible to read Sylvannus account what is happening there), this is like being in different planet.
However, our system has many flaws and things which are against human rights. Also even when things are written down into laws and regulations, that we should have two professional TS clinics for diagnostics, we only have one and the second clinic consists of doctors, doing their rotation. I unfortunately have to use that clinic and let me tell you, going there for "examination" and for "diagnostics", has nothing to do with science or therapy. It just feels indifferent for the staff. It's like lottery there who gets a what diagnose and when.
My eyes have just opened to the flaws of our system, especially since reading this forum and reading how things work in Canada, Australia and even in USA. Yes I can get even SRS here for free, but everything takes forever and the system is very arbitrary. It's not therapy, more like a series of questions that you have to answer "correctly".
I would rather pay money, to get a professional therapist and doctor, with whom to discuss about myself and my future.
And for treatments here it seems that most older people who have work, start the treatments on their own in any case, as the official system just takes forever.
I just feel that I'm being punished over and over again in this country, for being who I am. We have also a compulsory military service here and I declined that a long time ago, as I just couldn't picture myself with among thousands of men. I had two options, either jail or do a civil service, which is twice as long as the military service (meaning it's just a different type of punishment). This is also one thing that has been noted by Amnesty and EU several times, that we actually have people in jail, who have been put there because of their opinion. Not very different from China...
Living in France, the country of "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity", is not any better. To avoid going through "official" channels pretty identical to those you describe most of us go through a DIY transition. Personally, I have no issue with this as I am not sure I would want "society" to pay for something which I have chosen to do myself. (Even if I am aware of the limits of "personal choice")
What I find extremely objectionable though is the process you have to go through to get your gender modified. It still requires getting a court order in a process that can last anywhere between one and two years and which requires using the services of an attorney. Furthermore, the judges have a lot of discretionary power to accept or refuse the change so the probability of getting a positive outcome is very dependant on where you live. Also, until very recently, proving you had done GRS (in spite of all the well documented dangers of such surgery) was an essential precondition. It has since been relaxed somewhat but certain judges still consider it a must.
If you were married, another precondition was getting a divorce as same sex mariage was against the law. Since France is finally changing the legislation on same sex marriage the latter condition will finally disappear (thus removing one major obstacle for me).
I am going to try getting the change without GRS which I simply can't do for now (too much time required), hoping that the other changes, HRT, FFS...plus therapists letters etc. will be sufficient to convince the judge that he/she can safely allow me to put an "F" on my ID instead of an "M".
Still quite a way to go but overall I think we all have to admit that compared to 30 years ago, progress has been quite remarkable.
Bises
Donna
Must be very global. For instance, I'm from Turkey. However, this country is getting worse each day. We have same president for 12 years! He is there, because he is a strong muslim. All he do is arresting writers, artists, shutting down Tv Channels, censoring newspapers and yes building more and more mosques. In any 5 minutes of walk, you come across a mosque. Yet, in the capital city of Turkey, I guess there are only 5-7 hospitals, 2 Libraries, 4 colleges. ???
Most Turkish people are ignorant, they don't care what's happening around the world. In here, there are only two kinds of people. Belivers and non-believers.
Believers (%90 of the country) are likely to hate gays (and other minorities) and commit hate crime! Luckily, I don't face them so often, or they don't know the ''awful truth'' about me.
Quote from: JulieC. on April 20, 2013, 05:48:05 PM
Really Lesley? Asians compromise a huge number of people from a equally large continent. I really don't think you can just lump them all together like that (even if that stereotype is true which I'm not sure it is). Even in your own country, are people from Quebec the same as people from Vancouver?
That's a very good point but one which needs to be applied in context.
As individuals, we represent ourselves according to our personal attitudes and beliefs. I am potato, you are patato. That much is the individual. (Notice I'm the potato :laugh: )
As a group, we are represented by the consensus. The consensus here, for example, is transgender as a continuum. Some individuals may not personally agree. Some may strongly disagree, but we all agree to represent that point as an alternative to being ostracised.
I can say for example, with some level of certainty, that in Scotland, using alcohol is a norm. There are many Scots who don't use it, but the norm is represented by those that do. That isn't a negative stereotype, it's an observation of a social trend.
We can say with some level of certainty, that the norm among those of Sino-Asia culture, tend to place great emphasis upon education, especially for some, upon family and so on. There have to be exceptions. These are people. But these are social norms imposed by the culture. The culture exists as a unity because its members tend to conform rather than the alternative of being ostracised.
In all human societies the norm is heterosexual relationships and conventional gender expression. Some societies practice a tolerance as a trend. Though it is interesting that, in any crisis the society tend s to revert or seek to reestablish stability by reverting to an earlier point. 'Everything was fine before....' or 'This will lead to/result in/indicates ....'. These are the naysayer responses and all societies feature these. (They are actually two and only two, very different naysayer responses represented by much greater trends elsewhere, but I digress!)
Where change is part of natural process, such as children growing up and becoming individuals, not necessarily like their parents, or people dying, then the society responds according to its ability to adapt. If the society is based upon strong structures, designed for stability, necessary adaptation is invariably accompanied by a period of revision where naysayers predominate.
While it is to be appreciated that, as a group which seeks to further social tolerance, we avoid any indications of revisionist stereotyping, there is a fine line between social appreciation and negative stereotyping.
Quote from: Jamie D on April 21, 2013, 12:20:50 AM
There has been quite a bit of stereotyping going on in this topic, which is not in keeping with the function of a support site. We don't need to classify entire cultures as "spoiled," "chauvinist jerks," and "rapists."
Even the swipe at Christians ("Jesusland") as entirely unsympathetic to transpeople is unfair.
Let's think about our posts first, before bashing other cultures and nations.
Thank you.
I quite agree, better the site remain focused on support.
But I will confess, off site, I prefer 'if the shoe fits'. I am not sympathetic to groupings of humanity, that make a point of spitting on my existence, and then insisting on running to the teacher the moment someone calls them on it. And that includes even members of the transgender community that for their own reasons often insist on supporting the same groupings that sure don't support them.
Just saying, I behave myself here as requested, and I do it out of respect for my host and my host's wishes, but, keep in mind, off site, don't expect my views to be 'nice'.
It is unwise to visit my Facebook or webpage if you don't wish to hear my honest thoughts.
Quote from: Jamie D on April 21, 2013, 12:20:50 AM
There has been quite a bit of stereotyping going on in this topic, which is not in keeping with the function of a support site. We don't need to classify entire cultures as "spoiled," "chauvinist jerks," and "rapists."
Even the swipe at Christians ("Jesusland") as entirely unsympathetic to transpeople is unfair.
Let's think about our posts first, before bashing other cultures and nations.
Thank you.
When the head of a 1 billion people organization declares me an 'abomination' because according to him may nature resides between my legs and not my ears..well then honey, I am going to 'tell it like it is' but I have abstain myself to do do so because I know what will be coming my way as punishment..
The same holds true for a government or culture that allows the persecution of inocents...why we should not say it as it is?
Let me give you an analogy..lets suppose that in America we still have slavery, yeah, now, today. Would it be
Quotequite a bit of stereotyping, and not in keeping with the function of a support site, too classify entire "South" as "Racist" ?
QuoteNow this might surprise some members... Transsexualism in Iran...Well worth a watch...
Yeah...surprised the heck out of me.
Interesting thread.
I tend to travel abroad at least twice per year.
Helsinky, buenos aires, portland, BC, Tokyo, seattle, DC, madrid, gdansk, hamburg, ulaan baartar.... Yet never been to africa and china.
Generally, the level of tolerance is proportional to that of democracy.
Here is an old but still moving article:
Andy Marra
Public Relations Manager, GLSEN
The Beautiful Daughter: How My Korean Mother Gave Me the Courage to Transition
Posted: 11/16/2012 9:02 am
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-marra/the-beautiful-daughter-how-my-korean-mother-gave-me-the-courage-to-transition_b_2139956.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-marra/the-beautiful-daughter-how-my-korean-mother-gave-me-the-courage-to-transition_b_2139956.html)
Quote from: Jamie D on April 21, 2013, 12:20:50 AM
There has been quite a bit of stereotyping going on in this topic, which is not in keeping with the function of a support site. We don't need to classify entire cultures as "spoiled," "chauvinist jerks," and "rapists."
Even the swipe at Christians ("Jesusland") as entirely unsympathetic to transpeople is unfair.
Let's think about our posts first, before bashing other cultures and nations.
Thank you.
I am sorry. I have been trying not to stereotype a country, but I feel I have depleted all of China's positive sides that I can find (legal identity change, TG marriage, etc.) If you would like to look through as much Chinese local news as possible about TG (Google Translator will help), especially the comments below (which reflect the common public beliefs), I am sure you would find the same.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on April 19, 2013, 08:25:10 PM
Do we have anyone on site that knows of anyone that has come from these unlikely regions?
I think theres many people on susan from diffrent places and also very ignorant places, but I also feel those usunally arnt mentioned either because its very difficult to debatate an issue who ex goes in Saudi arabic where the culture is very diffrent place to be transgender than ex in Sweden. but also I think many people is pretty paranoid. I dont even live in such a bad place again yet I had deep paranoia being on Susan, its ridiculous but I belive its a natural thing when you live either in a very small area or an area where you have to be very carefull all the time.
--
I live in Denmark as mention many places before, after reading the posts I think henna's decribtion of finland seams very simular to the danish system (its not a big surprize as the scandinavian countrys seams simular on this)
when I speak to people outside they often think Denmark is one of the best places to be transgender in, but the trust is that its very difficult.
you can get surgery for free but only if your lucky and agree on some people who call themself "expert" to go thouhgt there prossess of jugding you like henna says as an exame to prove that your a "true transexual" with very nerrow and sexual glasses putted on who can take years to fullfile. the surgery arnt even that great, the threatment in general is horrible so alot of people (like me) just go by our own find private doctors in our outside the country but those people are hunted like witches so the whole thing is very paranoia.
transgender people who go in the system to get permission know what to say, wear and act to get the highest chance to get permission, those who get rejected or dont want to go thought it gonna know there contacts to doctors and people to help. I have a list of doctors I know who is transfriendly, I can hand them out to people who in need for one, or in caise I need one myself but I dont mention there name in public or from people I dont know cause of the paranoia. I really love the country in many ways, but I think I also might to move at a time cause the whole system makes me feel very insecure and unsafe.
as well as in finland and china we also have forced sterilization, so to change your gendermarked on you need to do this. Denmark have open up for the posibilaty "maybe" to put away the law, since sweden have done so and norway is thinking about it, so a lucky guess would be in 2014 there would be no more forced sterilization but yet we dont know, as the same issues as in china when you change your ID you becoma a "newborn" and your old ID is "death" so to change your papers is very difficult as you out of sudden have no education, or nothing at all, but it should also become better. I have hope because I see diffrence happening slowly. my biggest concern is for kids who go into this trouble, I feel theres 0% help to get.
a little girl at 5 where send a paper to fill out of signing things like her sexual life, or partnership things for adults,
later on the goverment advice her to not wear dresses outside. those things make me angry, but yet you cant do anything
it worrys me alot since im young myself and know what its like not to have rights of your own.
-
Quote from: sylvannus on April 21, 2013, 05:37:44 PM
I am sorry. I have been trying not to stereotype a country, but I feel I have depleted all of China's positive sides that I can find (legal identity change, TG marriage, etc.) If you would like to look through as much Chinese local news as possible about TG (Google Translator will help), especially the comments below (which reflect the common public beliefs), I am sure you would find the same.
With respect, I don't think you did.
Impressions are based upon whatever understand we each have. In a discussion among intelligent people, we should each feel we can freely express our impressions and have errors corrected by those with more, possibly first hand experiences.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on April 19, 2013, 08:25:10 PM
Saudi Arabia, yeah I can see that country being a bastion of freedom (insert snarky laughing).
What about truly impoverished nations?
What about places like China where life is cheap?
I find it ludicrous to think being transgender is a function of standard of living, but, it seems hard to ponder persons having much capacity to be who they might really be, if they live in a place that would consider it a death sentence to do so.
Do we have anyone on site that knows of anyone that has come from these unlikely regions?
I dont have friends of china or saudiarabia which I know of is transgender. but I have LGBT friends and people I know of from diffrent countrsy who arnt very accepting.
one of my friends from Guatamala surprized me alot by the ignorance in the country,
I also talk with a guy from Iran, his gay but his still go back to visit his parrents once in a while.
I know I cant relate to them 100% but I feel a sense of relation because I also thinking of moving myself many times. I might not be forced into it as nobodys gonna kill me for being transgender, however somethimes I just get very paranoid of it all.
I hope I could get better understanding of other countrys with transgender people. currently I havent been that many places but hopefully in the future it could happent. I think the best thing LGBTQ to do is to understand what issue a country have according to there ignorance. a country can be very openminded in a way and closeminded in another. ex as in Iran where you can be trans but not gay.
Natkat, sad to read that Denmark is the same as Finland :(
But you said it very well, it's an theater act you need to put up, in order to get through the system and get the diagnose.
It's degrading and humiliating. Sometimes consisting of completely ludicrous questions, like for example last time I was asked if I bake cookies and make food...
We were called (two spirited people) look it up , by the Native American culture of North America
Especially in the US and Canada. They recognized us as a third gender this was documented in at
least 155 different Native American Tribes!
This was great for them till the white man came it was all down hill from then on. Very interesting reading. We are special human beings!
Quote from: ford on April 20, 2013, 07:09:29 AM
My doctor just got back to the US after a few years working in rural Africa. When she was prescribing me T, she told me that she came across very few trans folk in Africa. 'There should be more,' she said, 'but there aren't.'
It got me thinking that in a way it could be about wealth and standard of living. If you're living a rough life in rural Africa, you might not be able to afford to 'be yourself' because there are so many other things to worry about. Or perhaps it's a fear thing because it's even less acceptable than in more developed parts of the world. Or maybe you just don't have exposure to trans knowledge and role models, so you just consider yourself sad and broken and never really discover the cause. I dunno, but it sure got me thinking.
Ok, I know I've been offline for several days so I'm a bit behind on this thread, but I think I might be able to shed some light on why there are fewer
visible trans* people in Africa. I highlight the word 'visible' here, because the percentage of people who are trans* is pretty much the same everywhere, but there are cultural reasons why trans* people in many parts of the world, including Africa, cannot express their identities.
Have you ever heard of 'ubuntu'? No, not the operating system – the African philosophy. A good translation into English is 'I am because we are'. It is the sense of community that is common in many African cultures, but particularly the Bantu cultures.
Have a look at this explanation of ubuntu, from Archbishop Desmond Tutu:
"Ubuntu speaks particularly about the fact that you can't exist as a human being in isolation. It speaks about our interconnectedness."
According to ubuntu, there is not really such a thing as an individual. A person's worth isn't measured by who they are, but rather it is reinforced by their membership of their community and their compliance with its rules, customs and standards. Group thinking is very much a part of many African cultures and any deviation from the group is abhorrent and is strongly discouraged.
Therefore, in many traditional African cultures, traditional roles (which include gender roles) are strictly enforced. Being visibly transgendered would mean rejecting the traditional role that is expected of you as a member of your community. That would be a direct violation of ubuntu and it is likely to lead to you being punished, ostracised... or much worse.
I have African LGBT friends who have had to leave their homes, their communities, their tribes, their
countries, just so that they can be true to themselves. They grew up in extremely tight-knit communities and it is incredibly traumatic for them to leave all that behind... but they have no other choice if they're to find personal fulfilment. I have close relatives living in a particular African country where it is against the law to be LGBT... and I dread going back to visit them because I could be arrested even before I get through Customs, just for being gay & trans.
It's relatively easy to come out when you move to a big city, but it's practically impossible if you live in a rural area. For many such people, their need for ubuntu is so deeply ingrained that they have to hide their LGBT tendencies because they couldn't bear to be parted from their community.
That is the main reason why your doctor didn't see them.
buddy.
When I was trying to research the historical evidence fro transgender and homosexuality, the evidence from the native Americans was of particular interest. The actual resources are few and far between so much of what I found was pieced together.
The evidence is quite clear though. A large community, isolated from Eurasia, even to the extent of not having the wheel, yet integrating, at the very least, gender ambiguous into the greater community.
It was important because it indicated that claims that intolerance are integral to human nature are not as obvious as might be claimed.
FTMDiaries
My wife is African. Her experiences are very much along the lines you suggest. Though she was not aware of the philosophy behind it all.
For her, the wrenching from her community has been a terrible price to pay. It's almost 40 years and she still maintains as much long distance connection as she can. Though she would naturally have been glad to send whatever financial support she could to her family, the actual support she has given to her own family and her extended family is huge. Certainly far greater than similar support from other expats we know.
I don't know if there are any promising indications on the horizon. From what I can see, there is little actual reason to maintain this aspect apart from the insistence of a few. But that seems to be enough. Much like the drug laws in the west, almost everyone knows they don't work are causing far more harm than they solve, no government would ever risk general reform for fear of the ranting of a minority.
Some areas are more tolerant than others. But tolerance and permissibility are different matters. Though the persecution being currently encouraged in Central Africa, Uganda, Kenya and so on are probably more to do with the influx of the various religious groups. Some American, others psuedo Islam.
Quote from: FTMDiaries on April 23, 2013, 09:44:02 AM
Ok, I know I've been offline for several days so I'm a bit behind on this thread, but I think I might be able to shed some light on why there are fewer visible trans* people in Africa. I highlight the word 'visible' here, because the percentage of people who are trans* is pretty much the same everywhere, but there are cultural reasons why trans* people in many parts of the world, including Africa, cannot express their identities.
......
Hi Diaries:
It was such a similar culture regarding transsexualism some 40 years ago in China. You are nothing if you do not follow the normality of your community. Now in major cities like Shanghai and Beijing, we are westernizing. Luckily I was born in a big city near Shanghai where have the highest level of westernization. I can't imagine if I was born in a traditional rural area. Maybe I would have already committed suicide to cleanse the community?
When I came out to my father, he sent me a message saying that they will never accept a ->-bleeped-<- in the family and they will be looked upon by the community. He said I will have to leave the city of Wuxi and leave every of their acquaintances; never say I was born here, never say I am their children, never show my education there, and never come back. I was so sad. I love them and love Wuxi.
Kia Ora sylvannus & FTMDiaries ,
I guess this is what it must be like[well similar] for many trans-people who are brought up in any close knit communities...What comes to mind are the close knit religious communities in the US...
I'm sure some US member's here can relate...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: sylvannus on April 23, 2013, 05:29:16 PM
Maybe I would have already committed suicide to cleanse the community?
Thank goodness that didn't happen.
In addition, the Confuciusm advocates that a man's body does not belong to himself. Instead, it belongs to his parents, especially father (women? They are no more than tradable goods). (身体发肤，受之父母，不敢毁伤) Perhaps now you understand why corporal punishment is common in Asian education: parents are only "adjusting" their own property by hitting their children's body, and the police never takes care about it unless it has caused a death. In the old times, parents had the power to order their children to die (父要子死，子不得不死)， and even cutting your hair without your parents' permission was a crime.
Nowadays, even if you are 40 or 50 years old, perfectly an adult, to access the assessment of GID and to obtain the permission of SRS, you still need written approvals of your parents. According to the people in the TG community who I know, most have to produce a fake signature because otherwise it would be absolutely impossible to get, although this might bring them certain legal headaches thereafter.
Quote from: kyh on April 23, 2013, 07:26:41 PM
Yes! Yes yes yes I've seen that so many times! On Chinese forums I always hear people talking about 人妖 (slang for female transsexuals, literally means human demon) and 变性人 (transsexuals, literally change sex person) having shortened lifespans. I know that Nong Poy (a very beautiful and well known Thai transsexual woman) has a lot of fans in China, her 贴吧 has so many fans, but a lot of them seem to not know much about transgender people. They always say things like, "She's so beautiful, it's a shame she was born in the wrong body, because taking hormones shortens your life span significantly."
:P
Yes, some Chinese students have called me human demon on my back. Not on face because it is illegal in Australia, but I always know it.
How about parents? Their first reaction to my coming out text was:" no you will be discharged by university and deported by the Australian government!" After I took a week or so to prove them that it is absolutely impossible to discriminate LGBT in this way in Australia, they began to believe I was not serious and "naive, impulsive, crazy". Then I suggested them to visit any of the local psychologists, and they no longer say I was crazy, but began to show me how hard life will be if I go through transition, and their disappointment. My mother once said: "you were a decent human being, but want to become a human demon! That's madness. We will never allow that! Do you know how much effort we have made, how much difficulties we have experienced to bring you up, to educate you a decent man? We never had any entertainment, we never had any enjoyment; all was devoted to you! Are you going to repay us, repay our white hair and decades of hard-working by becoming a human demon?" My father added:" If you should become a human demon, please do not disclose any relationship with us. Never use your name and family name, never say you were our child, never come to your birth town, never say you were born here, and never talk about your education records! We don't want to be a human demon's parents; we don't want to be looked upon; we don't want to be that kind of famous."
Luckily, these were not face-to-face talks; they were online chats. If they have been face-to-face talks, for several of the times they would have ended up by my father swinging his fist and I flee from the house. However, my parents must be masters in emotional manipulation; they can always accurately hit my weakest point in a few words and make me depressed for days.
Mon and dad actually believe I am totally destroying my life in madness. Mother complained a few days ago that because of me, both of she and my father have gone into tears for numerous times. Now they feel so depressed that they are not feeling healthy and have resigned from their jobs. Thus they will have a rather low income and they will cut off any support to me. I feel so sorry for them feeling sick because of me. My mom asked me to pending my transition, stop medication, and only crossdress in private so that I can avoid discrimination for my career life, until I make a big fortune or retire... Several of my TG friends agree with her, but I feel reluctant to accept.
its very sad to read of all the storys, but I keep hope in that things will get better by time for most caises,
in few caises it can get worse but I hope by efford it turns the rights ways.
to look back in time from the gay people the rights have grow extremly on the years, now its trans* peoples turn to gain rights.
currently im reading "dont dry tears without glowers" (torka aldrig tårar utan hänska) it take place about the same time as the movie MILK which also is a good movie. it's very inspiring thinking how these are only a few years back yet there happent so much in Sweden and many European countrsy as well as US. in MILK the whole political thing is very up in Torka inta tårar, its more about HIV and the emotional aspect on how "homophilia" have been so horrible and unaccepting while now I would say most people can accept homosexualety exept from few ignorent people.
in the serie its pretty much just about the HIVthing, which also the main focus in the book, but yet something I really love is all the small details and facts on how things have developed. theres real places and sentences and decribtions of things who have happents and been said, I would hope years in the future we could look back the same way and have gained alot more rights in many countrys for transgenders wellbeing.
Torka Aldrig Tarar Utan Handskar (2012) Part1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TglIa-6GwY#)
Quote from: FTMDiaries on April 23, 2013, 09:44:02 AM
the ubuntu thing is pretty interesting,
I notice for middle east imigrents its often hard to come out,
one thing is sure the religious thing of being a muslim, but I dont find many people in my country to be very religious and even if there muslim I still feel theres also many people who are surportive. But I think the connection is the main reason why its hard because many of them have a good connection between each other and it somehow break if one of them is gay, bi, or trans, pretty much same way as in ubuntu.
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Quote from: sylvannus on April 24, 2013, 04:13:24 AM
My father added:" If you should become a human demon, please do not disclose any relationship with us. Never use your name and family name, never say you were our child, never come to your birth town, never say you were born here, never talk about your education records! We don't want to be a human demon's parents; we don't want to be looked upon;, we don't want to be that kind of famous."
I've heard similar threats made to children by parents in other cultures. Often to coerce them into marriage, but also education and so on.
Let me say, if such a thing were ever said to any western person I think almost anyone would say that the parents clearly don't have any feelings for you at all and you should leave their sorry asses.
You're better than that.
That's individualism.
But as I said, it's up to you to decide what your own priorities are.
Quote from: sylvannus on April 24, 2013, 04:13:24 AM
Yes, some Chinese students have called me human demon on my back. Not on face because it is illegal in Australia, but I always know it.
In addition, my mother once said: "you were a decent human being, but want to become a human demon! That's madness. We will never allow that!"
I'm so sorry about what your family have said to you; it's a very difficult situation to be in. All this talk of 'demons' reminds me in a way of the Bruce Lee story; I seem to recall that his father was obsessed with an imaginary demon that he thought was stalking his family, so he gave Bruce a female birthname to try to hide him from the 'demon'.
But I just wanted to say thank you so much for your post in which you described Chinese culture. It was very enlightening and it inspired me to write about my experiences of African culture. Thank you for sharing.
Quote from: Kuan Yin on April 23, 2013, 05:40:06 PM
I guess this is what it must be like[well similar] for many trans-people who are brought up in any close knit communities...What comes to mind are the close knit religious communities in the US...
I'm sure some US members here can relate...
My thoughts exactly. I didn't want to say so at the time (because I wanted to concentrate on African culture) but the sort of excommunication that occurs with LGBT people in some African communities could be described as causing a similar type of pain to the excommunication from some religious groups. I don't want to single out any particular religion, but as an example I have ex-Mormon friends who have been utterly shunned by their families and communities because of their so-called 'lifestyle choices' and the pain & sense of loss they feel is very similar to the type I described.
And dare I add... there are some FtMs who previously identified as lesbian before transitioning and were very active in the lesbian community. After transitioning, some have described feeling shut out of the lesbian community with which they used to strongly identify and they have described a similar loss.
Perhaps this type of group behaviour is simply a normal part of human nature?
Quote from: sylvannus on April 23, 2013, 06:21:58 PM
Nowadays, even if you are 40 or 50 years old, perfectly an adult, to access the assessment of GID and to obtain the permission of SRS, you still need written approvals of your parents. According to the people in the TG community who I know, most have to produce a fake signature because otherwise it would be absolutely impossible to get, although this might bring them certain legal headaches thereafter.
That's really awkward. What's the logic behind that? Why would a 50 years old person need his parents' permission? What if their parents are dead? ???
Quote from: ThetisnFurter on April 26, 2013, 04:47:59 AM
That's really awkward. What's the logic behind that? Why would a 50 years old person need his parents' permission? What if their parents are dead? ???
If parents have passed away, then the child is free. Otherwise, a parents' permission is always needed. Anyway, it is not a law, though all hospitals follow that rule (there's definitely no law regarding transsexualism). However, they kind of know for most TG folks it is impossible to get a signature from angry parents, they just do not seriously check its authenticity.
This has been my favorite thread to follow. Thanks to all of you that have shared your lives, cultures and what it is like for you where you live. It is so interesting for me. I suddenly feel I know people all over the world.
Sylvannus...I take it you are on a student visa attending school in Australia? Will you have to return to China some day? And what will happen to you then? I assume your parents would never give their permission for you to transition. I really feel bad for you although I don't think your parents behavior is at all unique. I've heard similar stories from transgender people living in the U.S. and elsewhere. What makes it worse is when they are joined by the whole community. It leaves you nowhere to turn. I do believe information and education will change every ones view on transgender eventually, but it will take time.
Quote from: JulieC. on April 27, 2013, 02:44:54 PM
This has been my favorite thread to follow. Thanks to all of you that have shared your lives, cultures and what it is like for you where you live. It is so interesting for me. I suddenly feel I know people all over the world.
Sylvannus...I take it you are on a student visa attending school in Australia? Will you have to return to China some day? And what will happen to you then? I assume your parents would never give their permission for you to transition. I really feel bad for you although I don't think your parents behavior is at all unique. I've heard similar stories from transgender people living in the U.S. and elsewhere. What makes it worse is when they are joined by the whole community. It leaves you nowhere to turn. I do believe information and education will change every ones view on transgender eventually, but it will take time.
Yes, I am a PhD student in Medicine (well, I am not a pharmacist, not a clinical doctor). Because I am not on the Chinese national scholarship (CSC), I will not have to head back upon graduation. However, I am not sure if I can find a job and immigrate, either. I will try, but immigration is always difficult.
If I fail and head back to China, I will avoid going to my birth city, Wuxi, where too many people know me. Local companies, institutes and schools will definitely not accept me. I might seek a position in foreign companies. But this is not easy, either, as transsexualism is considered a defect, a bad personality with negative effects on the company's social reputation (to understand this, although the heads of foreign companies are from US or Europe, the HR and managers are native, and they are the ones who are in charge of specific matters).
Otherwise, find a way to work at home, like what some TG folks are already doing, translating English files or drafting university application documents for those who are unable to write their own CV or personal statement but want to study in US. These work don't need to meet people, which makes the employer feel safe for the "negative effects on the employer's social reputation".
After that... Perhaps wander around and try to find a TG-friendly local employer by luck? Among the people who I know, one girl has found a good local employer and works as a cashier, but none of the others could. The last possibility is nightclubs; I am reluctant to think about that.
Alternatively, I could cut my hair and wear men's clothes and work as a man, like what X.XT. has been doing for 4 years. I will not think about it before I definitely have to.
As I am married, the doctor said to me that he will give prescription for HRT if I visit his office with my wife. I simply did not, although that was a personal recommendation of the doctor. I guess he requested it, because he probably got a lot of complaints and even legal sues by the wives of m2f people who underwent HRT by him without their approval. The doctor is the most famous SRS physician in Korea, and his most successful patient is Ha Ri Su.
Technically, Korean law requires that transsexual people should be divorced legally before SRS. This is just a document of official divorce, and transsexual people can anyway maintain their family union regardless of the law, if they wish and agree.
Like other countries, there are many things beyond the law, and those things can be more important than the law de facto.
Young people are more accepting compared with old generations. Those people who ask me such classical questions like "what does your wife think about it?", "how about your parents?", "how about your kids?" are always aged people. Young people never ask that kind of question. Also, educated people tend to be more careful in questioning, regardless of age. Most aged people do not tell between gay and transgender.
As I teach in a university, my long hairs can be an issue. When interviewing for the position here, one guy asked me about it. Legally, long hair can not be a factor in qualifying job candidates. But they can find other excuses, if they indeed do not want the candidate. In contrast to the aged professors here, the students here do not care about my long hair or other feminine stuffs. Some professors sometimes mentioned my long hair, recommending me to tie my hair, at least during a kind of official events. Those complains from aged faculty members now nearly disappeared, as they become accustomed to my long hairs. I have never worn skirts in the campus, but my colleagues know very well that I sometimes wear skirts.
Once, a kind of reality TV show here broadcast about several volunteered m2f transsexual people who undergo SRS. The term transgender nearly equals to entertainment here. I heard that there are several thousand transsexual people here in S. Korea who underwent SRS and changed their legal gender and name, but most of them just disappear from the radar of media reports. They keep their own life quietly. Exceptional is a few entertaining stars like Ha Ri Su.
As I teach and research well in my work place and sustain my family well, nobody can dare to find fault with my own unique life style. A few ignorant people did do, but I just quietly reminded them of the salary difference between them and me. The incomes of those people are usually far below than the average here.
In any society, your power (i.e., social and political) determines the limit of what you can do. Even power can change the law. Without enough power, then adjust your limit and negotiate your desire with the social limits. Sometimes money can buy power, but not always. This is my opinion on any captialistic society.
barbie~~
My mother has sent me another sad story of a transgender singer committed suicide in 2007 because of discrimination. Her suicide note was:
"我曾经以为，我变了性，就可以改变我的人生，可是变完性以后，却被人当动物看......中国的变性人不只一个人，可能每个人都像我一样，正在承受着不幸。为什么人们一但知道了你的变性身份，就会歧视你呢。我老老实实的做人，却要被人当动物一样围观。"
{Translation: "I used to think, if I change to my desired sex, I can thus change my life. However, after my sex change, I was immediately discriminated like an animal rather than a human being... There are many more transsexuals besides me in China, and perhaps all of them are suffering just like me. Why people immediately turn to discrimination against you as soon as knowing your transgender past? I am always an honest human being, yet I am constantly surrounded and watched like an animal."}
sylvannus
There are many reasons for people to end their lives. post transition people do as well as those of us who don't.
It's sad about this woman. But the reality is, there are 7 billion people on this planet we could find almost any example of almost anything to demonstrate a pro or a con.
It's your life. It's once. Live it or loose it.
Quote from: spacial on April 28, 2013, 06:07:56 AM
sylvannus
There are many reasons for people to end their lives. post transition people do as well as those of us who don't.
It's sad about this woman. But the reality is, there are 7 billion people on this planet we could find almost any example of almost anything to demonstrate a pro or a con.
It's your life. It's once. Live it or loose it.
Thank you. I am very determined on my transition and I feel I can pay everything for it. However I am feeling increasingly sad, worried, depressed, and anxious for the future as I learn more people's stories - although it doesn't change my determination.
Quote from: sylvannus on April 28, 2013, 10:17:58 AM
Thank you. I am very determined on my transition and I feel I can pay everything for it. However I am feeling increasingly sad, worried, depressed, and anxious for the future as I learn more people's stories - although it doesn't change my determination.
sylvannus,
IMO, you have better be very careful in planning transition. I believe economic conditions and permanent job to sustain oneself should be established, or at least planned, before transition. I can afford to transition, but I do not for my lovely kids and wife.
Barbie~~
Quote from: sylvannus on April 28, 2013, 10:17:58 AM
Thank you. I am very determined on my transition and I feel I can pay everything for it. However I am feeling increasingly sad, worried, depressed, and anxious for the future as I learn more people's stories - although it doesn't change my determination.
Kia Ora Sylvannus,
Other people's stories are 'other' people's stories...They are not your 'personal' story...
Don't drag past bad experiences into your future...
In Taoism [or Daoism as some like to spell it] there's an old saying that goes something like this: "If you want to find more fulfilment in life-you should want more of what you 'already' have and not of what you don't have ! "
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: sylvannus on April 28, 2013, 10:17:58 AM
Thank you. I am very determined on my transition and I feel I can pay everything for it. However I am feeling increasingly sad, worried, depressed, and anxious for the future as I learn more people's stories - although it doesn't change my determination.
I think you'll make it.