updated levels on second page
.I'm not sure if this helps you any, I'm on low dose e and low dose Spiro @ 4 1/2 months, with pretty much all the results you mentioned. At 3 months, my levels were checked, and my estradiol - 79, testosterone-220 something. I started getting anxious about the t levels, but since I'm seeing great results, I'm not pushing it.
If you're happy with your results so far, and aren't experiencing any side effects or negative reactions, I would stay as it were. The less you put in your body, the safer you are. :)
But of course, this is something to discuss with your Dr. And just to add, I think you look great!
You can't just throw numbers. You need to say the units. Else it's like saying "Amount of water: 3". 3 litres? 3 millilitres? 3 gallons?
But as a general rule, I think it's better to always have an antiandrogen. But do I look like an endo to you?
Quote from: A on April 24, 2013, 03:43:22 PM
You can't just throw numbers. You need to say the units. Else it's like saying "Amount of water: 3". 3 litres? 3 millilitres? 3 gallons?
But as a general rule, I think it's better to always have an antiandrogen. But do I look like an endo to you?
I called up the doctor's office and asked for the numbers, so I'm assuming those numbers are of the standard units used when measuring hormone levels.
Well the high-dose E should inhibit T all on its own but finesteride only inhibits 5α-reductase which just stops the conversion of T to DHT which is good for balding but I read its AA properties leave much to be desired. If you don't want to take spiro, you could take a progesterone for use as an AA. Another girl here does that and she has had some phenomenal results. How come your endo didn't have you on any AA in the first place? I'm guessing she thinks the E will inhibit T all on its own. You'd obviously want to maximize your potential so if you think the E is not working well enough i'd def ask.
It depends on where you live. What the US (and, I think, a few other small countries...?) considers a standard generally isn't for the rest of the planet. Inches, ounces, pounds, pg/mL, gallons, degrees Farenheit...
Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 24, 2013, 04:40:51 PM
Well the high-dose E should inhibit T all on its own but finesteride only inhibits 5α-reductase which just stops the conversion of T to DHT which is good for balding but I read its AA properties leave much to be desired. If you don't want to take spiro, you could take a progesterone for use as an AA. Another girl here does that and she has had some phenomenal results. How come your endo didn't have you on any AA in the first place? I'm guessing she thinks the E will inhibit T all on its own. You'd obviously want to maximize your potential so if you think the E is not working well enough i'd def ask.
I don't have an endo. It's my GP who treats trans people as well. I'll talk to him about spiro instead of finasteride, but he said I've been developing faster than his other patients, so I dunno.
You should be able to get a copy of your labs when you see the doctor. It is a good idea to keep them in a folder with a list of your medications and dosages. Not only is it a ready reference, but if you are like me, and see three different doctor - wait, four - a GP, an endo, a cardiologist, and a neurologist - you need to have that information on hand.
Her is an interesting discussion about common MtF HRT myths:
http://t-vox.org/index.php?title=Hormones_:_Urban_Legends (http://t-vox.org/index.php?title=Hormones_:_Urban_Legends)
In my opinion, you should consider getting on Spiro. My T levels have gone to zero after 4 months.. sounds like your GP is being too conservative.
.
Quote from: muuu on April 24, 2013, 09:07:00 PM
49 pg/ml is in the male range for estrogen, I think.
If it's in the male range, I don't see how there aren't tons of guys with boobs walking around lol
Quote from: Aleah on April 24, 2013, 08:00:54 PM
In my opinion, you should consider getting on Spiro. My T levels have gone to zero after 4 months.. sounds like your GP is being too conservative.
I'll leave a message for him tomorrow and ask him about my levels
.
Okay i called my doctor's office and left a message. Hopefully i can get the answers i need about the levels
Quote from: Hideyoshi on April 24, 2013, 10:36:29 AM
Estradiol- 49
Total t- 278
Free t- 31.2
9 months normal dose finasteride
8 months high dose estradiol
Changes:
first month finasteride: loss of body odor, body hair grew back slower
After nine months combination therapy: aa cup breast, body hair nonexistent, leg and pubic hair growth slowed greatly, body odor feminine, face and butt fat increased, physical strength atrophy, substantially smoother skin
Just wondering how the levels look and if i should consider asking my doctor about Spiro
If you live in the USA... which from the numbers you've posted, I assume you do, your values look like this...
E2 level = 49 pg/ml
Total T = 278 ng/dl
Free T = 31.2 pg/ml
So... I'm surprised no one else has answered you yet, but... you want results closer to this:
E2 level = between 150-200 pg/ml
Total T = below 40 ng/dl
Free T = below 1.0 pg/ml
When I started hormones (having never taken anything, no self-medication, nothing)... my Total T was between 190-200 ng/dl. And my E was in the 50-60 pg/ml... and I was a pretty cut/buff/muscular guy. So general statements can't always apply. Basically you want to maintain the ideal range levels I posted above for a minimum of 3 years to have the best effect from HRT. Some will develop faster, some slower. Time and maintenance of hormones in the ideal range will give you the best results. No short cuts I'm afraid.
I'm also not a fan of the no Spiro approach. Finasteride is a very weak anti-androgen. If you need to grow hair (which you look to have covered), go for it. But it's no substitute for inhibiting T production like Sprio.
Also make sure your doc is monitoring your hepatic function and if you go on Spiro maker sure to monitor your serum potassium level which should stay between 3.5-5.2 mmol/L.
Quote from: JennX on April 25, 2013, 09:44:29 AM
If you live in the USA... which from the numbers you've posted, I assume you do, your values look like this...
E2 level = 49 pg/ml
Total T = 278 ng/dl
Free T = 31.2 pg/ml
So... I'm surprised no one else has answered you yet, but... you want results closer to this:
E2 level = between 150-200 pg/ml
Total T = below 40 ng/dl
Free T = below 1.0 pg/ml
When I started hormones (having never taken anything, no self-medication, nothing)... my Total T was between 190-200 ng/dl. And my E was in the 50-60 pg/ml... and I was a pretty cut/buff/muscular guy. So general statements can't always apply. Basically you want to maintain the ideal range levels I posted above for a minimum of 3 years to have the best effect from HRT. Some will develop faster, some slower. Time and maintenance of hormones in the ideal range will give you the best results. No short cuts I'm afraid.
I'm also not a fan of the no Spiro approach. Finasteride is a very weak anti-androgen. If you need to grow hair (which you look to have covered), go for it. But it's no substitute for inhibiting T production like Sprio.
Also make sure your doc is monitoring your hepatic function and if you go on Spiro maker sure to monitor your serum potassium level which should stay between 3.5-5.2 mmol/L.
Yes, what she said about the ideal levels. I just got mine last week and my total T was 22, free T was 1, and my E was 187. My doc said that is ideal for me, as a mtf.
Ya we can't really say with no units attached.
Some labs do measure it differently within the US however.
Quote from: JennX on April 25, 2013, 09:44:29 AM
If you live in the USA... which from the numbers you've posted, I assume you do, your values look like this...
E2 level = 49 pg/ml
Total T = 278 ng/dl
Free T = 31.2 pg/ml
So... I'm surprised no one else has answered you yet, but... you want results closer to this:
E2 level = between 150-200 pg/ml
Total T = below 40 ng/dl
Free T = below 1.0 pg/ml
When I started hormones (having never taken anything, no self-medication, nothing)... my Total T was between 190-200 ng/dl. And my E was in the 50-60 pg/ml... and I was a pretty cut/buff/muscular guy. So general statements can't always apply. Basically you want to maintain the ideal range levels I posted above for a minimum of 3 years to have the best effect from HRT. Some will develop faster, some slower. Time and maintenance of hormones in the ideal range will give you the best results. No short cuts I'm afraid.
I'm also not a fan of the no Spiro approach. Finasteride is a very weak anti-androgen. If you need to grow hair (which you look to have covered), go for it. But it's no substitute for inhibiting T production like Sprio.
Also make sure your doc is monitoring your hepatic function and if you go on Spiro maker sure to monitor your serum potassium level which should stay between 3.5-5.2 mmol/L.
Thanks for your response.
What was your free t level before meds, though? I keep hearing that free t is the one you want gone the most
Quote from: JennX on April 25, 2013, 09:44:29 AM
When I started hormones (having never taken anything, no self-medication, nothing)... my Total T was between 190-200 ng/dl. And my E was in the 50-60 pg/ml... and I was a pretty cut/buff/muscular guy. So general statements can't always apply. Basically you want to maintain the ideal range levels I posted above for a minimum of 3 years to have the best effect from HRT. Some will develop faster, some slower. Time and maintenance of hormones in the ideal range will give you the best results. No short cuts I'm afraid.
Hormones can be fun. Rather androgynous, skinny, small hands and feet, a bit of gynecomastia. First measures were T at 759 ng/dl and E 48.2 pg/ml. My endo did a double take at the T value...
After 6 weeks of E-only (+ standard finasteride, but have been taking that for a year now), my T was at 424 ng/dl and my E at 165 pg/ml, at which point my endo put me on androcur (no spiro over here) to help get the T down. Unsurprisingly I've noticed more changes since then. :P
Quote from: Hideyoshi on April 26, 2013, 11:00:10 AM
Thanks for your response.
What was your free t level before meds, though? I keep hearing that free t is the one you want gone the most
I'm not sure, but it was mostly likely below "normal male" level. Most of my levels were starting out. I'll look thru my old lab work.
The big deal with a decrease in free T, is a decrease shows less is being produced... And is just not floating around free and not bound by receptors. You basically always want to have both free and total T tested. Some docs only test for total T... Which only gives you half the picture.
Doctor just called back
Started on starter dose of spiro
happy days ahead :3
Quote from: Hideyoshi on April 24, 2013, 10:36:29 AM
Estradiol- 49
Total t- 278
Free t- 31.2
9 months normal dose finasteride
8 months high dose estradiol
Changes:
first month finasteride: loss of body odor, body hair grew back slower
After nine months combination therapy: aa cup breast, body hair nonexistent, leg and pubic hair growth slowed greatly, body odor feminine, face and butt fat increased, physical strength atrophy, substantially smoother skin
Just wondering how the levels look and if i should consider asking my doctor about Spiro
idicate the units girl, pmoles/L (pmol/L) or picogram/L (pmol/L)
...
Quote from: Theo on April 26, 2013, 11:19:21 AM
Hormones can be fun. Rather androgynous, skinny, small hands and feet, a bit of gynecomastia. First measures were T at 759 ng/dl and E 48.2 pg/ml. My endo did a double take at the T value...
After 6 weeks of E-only (+ standard finasteride, but have been taking that for a year now), my T was at 424 ng/dl and my E at 165 pg/ml, at which point my endo put me on androcur (no spiro over here) to help get the T down. Unsurprisingly I've noticed more changes since then. :P
Yep androcur is like super t killer. Was on spiro when in the states here in canada my endo put me on androcur.
Also one can not just double a med over night, it takes time (mine was over a course of years in the states) to come up with a balance. Not a magic overnight pill as everyone wants. Remember you are going through seconday puberity. How long did the first one last, this one will last 2-3 times longer and HRT is a life long adventure.
Keep positive
Izzy
Quote from: Hideyoshi on August 01, 2013, 04:52:44 PM
bump: OKAY I'm getting freaking annoyed.
I started Spiro about three months ago, all right?
Started off on a baby dose, and now I'm on a moderate dose.
Finasteride high dose
Estradiol maximum dose
Spiro moderate dose
After 3 months of spiro, my levels are...
Total T: 277 ng/ml
Free T: 27.6 pg/ml
And I haven't gotten the estradiol levels yet from the blood test, but I'm assuming it'll be like in the 50s or something
But after I started spiro, my boobs started exploding in growth, my butt's getting fatter, and overall my body is taking a more feminine shape.
After all this, I have two questions...
1. WTF is the deal with my levels barely budging, but still getting results??
2. Should I ask my doctor to push my spiro dose up to the upper limits?
I really just want to chop my damn balls off but I don't have the money >:(
not sure why you are having such trouble with the numbers? as you have said things are working and if they are working i do not see why you are still worried of your numbers? Hrt is given to us for the side effects ie: your quote of " my boobs started exploding in growth, my butt's getting fatter, and overall my body is taking a more feminine shape" so the amount of pills you are taking are working or are you wanting the end result to happen faster?????
Izzy
Quote from: mind is quiet now on August 01, 2013, 05:11:56 PM
not sure why you are having such trouble with the numbers? as you have said things are working and if they are working i do not see why you are still worried of your numbers? Hrt is given to us for the side effects ie: your quote of " my boobs started exploding in growth, my butt's getting fatter, and overall my body is taking a more feminine shape" so the amount of pills you are taking are working or are you wanting the end result to happen faster?????
Izzy
it's just frustrating that my levels aren't budging, and I'm worried that I'm wasting time by not taking the maximum dose of spiro, and it baffles me that I'm still getting results with hormone levels in the male range
Quote from: Hideyoshi on August 01, 2013, 05:15:44 PM
it's just frustrating that my levels aren't budging, and I'm worried that I'm wasting time by not taking the maximum dose of spiro, and it baffles me that I'm still getting results with hormone levels in the male range
ok i think i understand now. sorry you feel that way and i think you are expecting way more then what the little time you have been on any HRT. You are thinking them as magic pills. Everything takes time and can not happen over night.
wishing you luck and do not rush over your health to get to where you think you should be.
Izzy
Quote from: mind is quiet now on August 01, 2013, 05:21:40 PM
ok i think i understand now. sorry you feel that way and i think you are expecting way more then what the little time you have been on any HRT. You are thinking them as magic pills. Everything takes time and can not happen over night.
wishing you luck and do not rush over your health to get to where you think you should be.
Izzy
I realize this is a YMMV sort of deal. I get that. But being on female HRT for almost a year, and still having hormone levels in the male range, you don't think that merits concern?
Quote from: Hideyoshi on August 01, 2013, 05:23:55 PM
I realize this is a YMMV sort of deal. I get that. But being on female HRT for almost a year, and still having hormone levels in the male range, you don't think that merits concern?
Spiro take a long time to get its effects, some can take a low dose and other need like 4xs the amount. Spiro is used for it seconday side effects, it helps block t, but i found that once the effects of atrophy of the testies starts to take effect it will effect your t levels in test more then pumping yourself to the max dose. You are getting results of the doseage you are on, so something is working even with the levels being where they are.
Take a deep breath, and look at the
results of your body for your long term health somtimes less is more..
Izzy
Quote from: Hideyoshi on August 01, 2013, 05:23:55 PM
I realize this is a YMMV sort of deal. I get that. But being on female HRT for almost a year, and still having hormone levels in the male range, you don't think that merits concern?
While my T is down, I recently had a bit of fun when my E results came in, as they were almost down to my pre-HRT levels. As posted in another thread, my endo told me that she is mainly looking at the LH and FSH values, and as long as they are low, everything is okay. The fact that my body is still actively changing makes me trust her expertise.
Quote from: Theo on August 01, 2013, 06:01:08 PM
While my T is down, I recently had a bit of fun when my E results came in, as they were almost down to my pre-HRT levels. As posted in another thread, my endo told me that she is mainly looking at the LH and FSH values, and as long as they are low, everything is okay. The fact that my body is still actively changing makes me trust her expertise.
I'm wondering that when I get my new health insurance, that I should see an endo
I'm surprised your T is that high given you are on the max dose of E. You almost don't need spiro at that dose. But perhaps you should ask your doctor about her thoughts on Progesterone as some use it when a patient does not repsond to conventional methods of T suppression. Some forms of progesterone are AAs. Not all though so it does matter which one you take. Are you still getting erections and producing semen? The semen part is prolly more important then the erections.
Quote from: Hideyoshi on August 01, 2013, 04:52:44 PM
....
Finasteride high dose
Estradiol maximum dose
Spiro moderate dose
After 3 months of spiro, my levels are...
Total T: 277 ng/ml
Free T: 27.6 pg/ml
.....
I'd talk to the doctor or conside a new one. Your total T is up in the higher Male range, and it's most likely interfering with the estrogen. You want to stop masculinizing your body, and that's only possible if you keep the Total T at or below the female range which is 50. ng/dl. Both my old endocrinologist, and my current doctor (an all-in-one Transsexual Specialist) make sure T is below 50. Mine was way low at 4 ng/dl for 9 months, but was rising a little to about 14 two months ago.
So yeah, ask about increasing the Spiro. Each individual is different, but your doctor needs to reconsider your dose. But please don't tell us any dose level, because as I said everyone is different, and there's a reason this forum has rules.
Hope the best for you.
Kathy
Time to increase your Spiro. If your doc doesn't agree, time to find another one.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 01, 2013, 07:47:31 PM
I'm surprised your T is that high given you are on the max dose of E. You almost don't need spiro at that dose. But perhaps you should ask your doctor about her thoughts on Progesterone as some use it when a patient does not repsond to conventional methods of T suppression. Some forms of progesterone are AAs. Not all though so it does matter which one you take. Are you still getting erections and producing semen? The semen part is prolly more important then the erections.
yes, still getting erections, still semen
Quote from: Hideyoshi on August 02, 2013, 05:11:45 AM
yes, still getting erections, still semen
Oh my, that's not what you want. Your way-way-way low on spiro.
God this is frustrating... It feels like i wasted a year
About to have a damned anxiety attack at work
Sorry hon. It's not a waste because the E was still doing work on you. I was on a very low dose of E for a long time and it still did wonders. Guess I sholdn't have said anything. :(
Ignore me and talk to the doctor.
K
E level came in:
71 pg/ml
So it came up in the three months, talked to doc, doubled spiro dose...
let's hope it works
Quote from: Hideyoshi on August 02, 2013, 04:30:59 PM
E level came in:
71 pg/ml
So it came up in the three months, talked to doc, doubled spiro dose...
let's hope it works
That's still very low. You want it to be double that. 120-200 pg/ml. Some docs are overly cautious and more concerned with a malpractice suite as opposed to properly treating a patient. Have a talk with your doc, if nothing changes, find another with more trans patient experience.