Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I am making this poll just to see if there is a depth or breadth on how others feel their androgyny or androgynous feelings influences. This post may influence future posts I start. Answer more than one, up to as many of the boxes that you want. You come back and change answers at anytime, or add/subtract choices.

Others will no see your results, only numbers of votes, not who voted for what.

Feel free to talk about any of the choices, need for further choices, or how you feel about this poll.

Kendall

I think that the biggest way that androgyny affects me, which I tried to express with my choices above, is that my hackles tend to rise every time I am referred to as a girl or as a guy.  Address me by name, address me in second person (you) and I'm fine, but once he/she/it and girl/boy come into play, I start to get irritated and lose patience with the person who is speaking.

I find it annoying when my born gender pre-conditions someone's reaction of me.
I am not male, so to treat me like one is a pain.

I added Pronouns and Gender Referrences also just now. So go ahead and select that one also Tay.

thank you, Ken/dra.

I appreciate it.

Added Science as in supporting gender and possible androgyne type research or related research.

Oddly enough scientific knowledge about it doesn't interest me, its the social stuff which excites my tastes.

Science can also mean social or psychological scientists. Not just medical. In fact most scientific data would probably come from social and behavioral science. Research would be more analytical, testing, questionaires, and digging into androgyne lives.

But the scientific methods, logics, and ethics would dictate the testing and research.

One might volunteer for sessions as part of a research gathering paper or testing.

Ooo, that sounds good...i would read social studies. I would be happy to participate in them.

Hey Kendall

Maybe an "All of the Above" button?

Some comments:   

Gender Identity: To say I don't care would not be true, but after accepting my androgyny, it is not the most important thing in my life.  Once the questions were answered and things started making a little sense, it is just something I accept...like the color of my eyes or the fact that I am no longer young...not much you can do about it.

Gender Biology: I am comfortable with my male body, but can envision some breast enhancement in the future.

Communication style: OK, this one is currently very important to me.  I have decided to start developing a voice that works for either male or female.  I'll keep everyone posted on how his goes.
 
Socially: I would like to reach the point where I can relate to people in the way that works best, be it as male, female or androgyne, and would love to eventually be able to switch easily, at will.

Clothing: I'm not as interested in dressing androgynically (is that a real word and did I use it correctly?) as being able to take the best of both genders and mixing them in interesting and attractive ways.  Jeans and a T-shirt are pretty androgynic, but not really interesting or attractive.  (OK, I admit that the right jeans can change that statement.)
 
Intimate Relationship: Who doesn't yearn for a relationship where they can be themselves without fear of rejection or reprisal?   

Character: I don't care if I am acting as a male, female or androgyne...I tend to do all 3 at various times.  I just try to be true to my feelings and respectful of others, (except when that jerk cuts me off on the freeway...Grrrr!!)

Values and Virtues: We're supposed to have these?  Sheesh...I better study...quick!

Religion or Beliefs: I don't care whether they actively support my beliefs, as long as they accept them as genuine and don't condemn them.

Gender Roles: I tried to roll a gender once, but it kept tearing the papers...guess that's why they make pipes.  ;D 

Gender Behavior:  Guilty.  I do indeed behave in male, female and mixed behavior.  I like it, and have no plans to change.

Politically: I would have to admit that my transgender status has caused me to be more liberal on certain social issues.  Fiscally, I still think the government is too big and gets waaay too much of my money in taxes.  Guess you could say I was Politically Androgynous too!

Educational: Not sure I ever would have read about or researched transgender issues and behavior if I wasn't one.

Literary: I've always enjoyed reading "guy stuff" and "girl stuff".  Whether being an androgyne is responsible for that or not, I can't say.

Hobbies, sports, or interests:  Interesting mix on this one too.  Some activities I do appear to be predominately performed by men (golf, disc golf, fishing).  Other activities tend to be performed more by females (baking, shopping).  Funny, most of my female friends (contrary to stereotype) hate shopping, while I (born male) love it.

Thinking: What's that?  It sounds dangerous...better not do it at work.  :-*  Being a little fluid (or maybe a lot), I find that I sometimes think and act feminine, on a rare occassion I am completely male and most of the time, I just am...whatever that may be.

Career:  Not sure being an androgyne made much difference in my chosen career, but it does impact my employment.  I allow myself to only go so far in expressing my androgyny and/or femininity at work.

Music, Movies, Entertainment: For some reason, I relate to the Crying Game much more than I did years ago.  I also tend to seek out movies with transgendered themes, which I steadfastly avoided before accepting my androgyny. 

Pronouns and Gender Referrences: Not important to me at all right now.  Sometimes it bothers me, but it simply is not worth the effort of educating everyone...better to bang my head against a wall than try to teach a redneck to say zie.

Science: This is also a biggie for me.  Understanding the physcial and psychological reasons for being transgendered will help push society to accept us.  Besides, I've always been a geek, and science "floats my boat".

Sorry this ran on forever, but next time, you won't ask for comments, will you?

....Laurie

I feel like I have a bi-gendered communication style. I have the female supportive conversation style: head nodding, uh-huhs, don't interrupt. But the broad generalization about gendered communication is that men do action talk and women do relationship talk. I'm an action talker; I don't do that relationship talk. Which affects me socially: I hang with the guys. I like to do the male "jocular sparring" (as the academics call it): "You look like crap! Did you sleep in that shirt?" = "Hey good buddy."

-- Sue

Thanks all so far for the votes. At 10 votes I am almost ready to do some preliminary posts.  I figure this because during the https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,9221.0/viewResults.html poll vote, votes slowed down around 15 votes. Although its up to 25 now, it took a really long time, several months, to move from 15 to 25. And the voting ranks stayed very close to the original amount at 15, percentage wise. So I think already the votes are pretty representative of an average already.

Thanks Tay, Pica Pica, Sue, and of course Laurie for the additional response and details. And as always your responses Laurie are very detailed and very informative and help chisel out many of the past informative posts I have made.

Feel free to change the votes, by removing your vote and revoting at any time, as long as you consider the vote your official and true answers. I do value each and every vote.

And like I mentioned before, dont feel pressured by anything these voting results "say". To me, it just is a tool to discuss and prioritize, and think about. And any of the results I actually hope that there will be opposing viewpoints, individuality, unique answers, alternative suggestions.

For after all, no one lives in boxes, no should follow strict controlled life rules that could be detrimental to one's sense of truthiness, open feelings and beliefs are encouraged. I myself never consider whats average when I behave how I do.

Kendall

First off I'd like to say, I know I'm quite new to this forum and have few posts, but believe me that I am reading a lot of stuff here and I feel incredibly relieved to finally be able to see responses from other people that I can truly relate to.

Gender Biology- A lot of the times there was a way I could truly be fluid about my bodily identity. Of course, the way I would like it to be is impossible and most likely never probable in my lifetime; but being able to switch my organs and appearance at will, from a female body to a male body, or even an adrogynic body would be of great importance to me. It would reflect my feelings at the time, which are fluid and never centered to one gender all the time. And I would still of course be me, the person I have always been, regardless of my body.

Socially, I wish people would relate to me by my name, and to not throw in gender-centered pronouns. I very obviously look female, and naturally that is what most people will refer to me as, whether I tell them to or not, but I really don't like it. Like Tay said, once he/she, boy/girl, man/woman comes into play, it bothers me, almost to the point of emotional exasperation. I desperately want to tell them "Just please use my name, I know I look like a female, but I'd rather you not refer to me as that". Because once you refer to me with a gender specific pronoun sometimes I just feel like I'm having all the "expectations" of that pronoun being shouldered onto me because of everything associated with that word.

Gender roles and behavior- I wish we could totally throw out both of these, it would make such a world of difference, and save so many people from feeling alienated and boxed in. I don't know how many times I've felt alienated by the female gender role and expectations and how I'm supposed to act. Because ever since I was little, I did both "boy" and "girl" things. I had barbies and I had an easy bake oven, I liked to dress-up; all of which are what little girls are "supposed" to do. But I also played with my brother's action figures, played video games, got dirty and played in the mud and did'nt care if my clothes got dirty, I always played with the boys if they'd let me. So, ever since I was little I did things of both genders, and I always considered myself as belonging to both sides. However, once I grew into my teens, I realized just how cruel the socially accepted gender stereotypes were to me; and others.

I don't want to be expected to do anything because of what my body looks like or how "girly" or how "boyish" I may be acting, or whether my likes or dislikes belong to one gender or another.

I also forgot to add, Sue mentioned that they felt they had a bi-gendered communication style. I feel I do as well. I like to talk on both sides of the spectrum. But it depends on who I'm talking to. With people I don't know when I'm often quiet, guarded in my responses, and more observant and less "chatty". But with close friends or people I feel comfortable with, I can be boisterous and playful, poking fun at them and taking their "poke-backs" with ease, etc etc. I can do "action" and "relationship" talk and enjoy both.

I also am very uncomfortable when people use male pronouns. It isn't just the pronouns, I think what bothers me on a deeper level is people putting me into the box labeled male, with all its assumptions and expectations. In a perfect, non discriminatory world, I would openly express my androgyny more with clothing and appearance. Interestingly, I'm never annoyed when people call me she or ms.

zythyra

In a relationship, I go for tall guys with some athletic body structure. Me being a guy also, I am short and act very shy in a relationship. I am the passive partner (or "the girl") in a relationship. I like being caring, but aggressive at sometimes.

Being genderqueer makes me feel extraordinary. I feel like I can wow people because I wear eyeshadow, but have a deep, masculine voice to come along with it. It actually gives me some sort of fear. I don't want people to fear me, but the aura that "you better not mess with me" is just plain neat. The pronoun "xe" also frees me from male stereotypes.

Also, being genderqueer makes me feel creative. I can do things to be "more than male" and not "less than male". As a painter and poet, putting on make-up puts me in a creative mood.

I've realised how being androgyne has affected me. It makes me feel not quite connected to people, nor to myself, which is a pity.

I just finally got around to voting, I checked 16 of the categories, so I guess most of them affect me and the choices I make in my life. As Laurie said, maybe there should be an all of the above  ;D I think the most important of them for me is identity, that colors how I perceive the rest.

zythyra

If you havent seen, I have all the results up to today in order of highest vote to lowest at the https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14143.0.html.

I tend to "rotate through being M, F, both, or neither. It seems to be cyclical. The both category is the most stressful as in can create a somewhat a sense of "lostness" temporarily. Like being at work whare I am supposed to be involved in and in charge of lot of technical details, but I feel like crying, because I heard a sad song at lunch. Just a conflict that is very hard to shake. Its not debilitating.


Sylvia H
I tend to "rotate through being M, F, both, or neither. It seems to be cyclical. The both category is the most stressful as in can create a somewhat a sense of "lostness" temporarily. Like being at work whare I am supposed to be involved in and in charge of lot of technical details, but I feel like crying, because I heard a sad song at lunch. Just a conflict that is very hard to shake. Its not debilitating.

The androgeny part of the cycle is is probably the least internal conflict.
Just my 2cents.

Sylvia H

   I am just realizing that most of my life I have been unconsciously referring to other people as 'they' or 'them'. I've never really been using gender specific pronouns in reference to others and I know I don't really like them to be used in reference to me.  I can handle it better now because I understand where the revulsion was coming from.

  Also, I think I have been choosing gender neutral clothing. Nothing specificall specifically masculine and nothing overtly feminine.

  Hooray for me! My self understanding advances. 

Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 26, 2007, 09:59:31 AM
   I am just realizing that most of my life I have been unconsciously referring to other people as 'they' or 'them'. I've never really been using gender specific pronouns in reference to others and I know I don't really like them to be used in reference to me.  I can handle it better now because I understand where the revulsion was coming from.

  Also, I think I have been choosing gender neutral clothing. Nothing specificall masculine and nothing overtly feminine.

  Hooray for me! My self understanding advances. 

That's good...hurray for self understanding.

I started to come round to all this stuff when I ruined (or at least seriously dented) someone's dissertation about gender reference in linguistics. Apparently I told a whole anecdote about meeting a person without revealing that person's gender. (I let her tap my phone for three months, we were strangers before but now she feels like she knows me. We don't talk.) Which is apparently unknown and against all linguistic norms and gave her a serious headache to explain. If only I had settled or been brave enough to reveal my gendery issues a year ago and she may have had more of an explanation.

That last poll on presentation was interesting to see the comments and new votes, I was wondering if there were any changes in this poll, or those that want to vote in this poll.

Kendall

Interesting poll, it taught me a lot I guess.

I'm so called mtf and have been on HRT for nearly 20 years but I do like being androgynous  to be honest. I'll dress in men's clothes on purpose to present in an androgynous way as I have a feminine physique.

Guess it's a bit weird, anyone else like that?

Holy thread-necromancy Batman!

I don't have specific suggestions as such, but I will offer a response or commentary on each question.

Gender Identity: I am pretty sure I am male.

Gender Biology: Ambivalent.

Communication style: I tend to do what comes naturally.  My voice sound is definitely "male," but the style is closer to neutral as far as I can tell.

Socially: Others should relate to me as a person, but they are welcome to see that I am male.

Clothing: People (myself included) should dress according to the clothing's merits.  Gender should not play a (direct) function here.  Like with other topics, I am not going to go out of my way to be gender-incongruent for the sake of being incongruent.

Intimate Relationship: I feel like a guy and seem to be attracted exclusively to women.  I don't see myself or a partner needing fulfill any sort of polar roles, though (dominant/submissive, worldly/domestic, etc).

Character: It's hard for one's character to be strictly gender-congruent, and I don't know what it would mean anyway since there are so many self-contradictions.  I guess I'm androgynous, though.

Values and Virtues: I want all people (myself included) to be able to pursue goals and such without regard to gender.  Worthy goals and plans should stand on their merit instead of use gender as an arbitrary crutch or barrier.

Religion or Beliefs: I would hope that people would accept androgyny as a good thing.  However, I am agnostic, and "belong to a group of people" does not particularly appeal to me anyway.

Gender Roles: With a handful of extemely special and peculiar exceptions, everyone should be able to participate in roles and activities without regard to gender.

Gender Behavior: I tend to behave without regard to my gender, and I guess I get "mixed" results.

Politically: I suppose androgyny gives me an extra urgency in supporting policy that protects and does not harm those who express/act androgynously.

Educational: Sure.

Literary: I don't read stories/books regularly, but as I consume any literature, I find cliches/stereotypes/sentimentalism to be annoying and uninteresting.  Usually literature that relies too heavily on these devices is crap anyway.

Hobbies, sports, or interests: I guess so, but there's a male lean.

Thinking: Yeah.

Career: I don't have enough of a sample size here.

Music, Movies, Entertainment: It's kind of like with literature.  Unless I have something interesting to pull out of it, I'm not biting.

Pronouns and Gender Referrences: These are a necessary headache.  Much to the shagrin of English teachers, plural pronouns for the third-person seems to be the most natural answer.

Science: It'd be nice to use scientific research, because it gives us insight into the true impact that sex and gender play without overstating those roles.  However, those that resist androgyny tend to not be particularly interested in the fair application of such research, and a lot of research is heavily confounded, so I'm not too invested in this side of things.  It's just preferable to the alternatives when it comes to "debate."

Relevant poetry for andro's...

The Tiger
  
TIGER, tiger, burning bright  
In the forests of the night,  
What immortal hand or eye  
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?  
 
In what distant deeps or skies         
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?  
On what wings dare he aspire?  
What the hand dare seize the fire?  
 
And what shoulder and what art  
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?  
And when thy heart began to beat,  
What dread hand and what dread feet?  
 
What the hammer? what the chain?  
In what furnace was thy brain?  
What the anvil? What dread grasp 
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?  
 
When the stars threw down their spears,  
And water'd heaven with their tears,  
Did He smile His work to see?  
Did He who made the lamb make thee?   2
 
Tiger, tiger, burning bright  
In the forests of the night,  
What immortal hand or eye  
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?



The Jaguar

The apes yawn and adore their fleas in the sun.
The parrots shriek as if they were on fire, or strut
Like cheap tarts to attract the stroller with the nut.
Fatigued with indolence, tiger and lion

Lie still as the sun. The boa-constrictor's coil
Is a fossil. Cage after cage seems empty, or
Stinks of sleepers from the breathing straw.
It might be painted on a nursery wall.

But who runs like the rest past these arrives
At a cage where the crowd stands, stares, mesmerized,
As a child at a dream, at a jaguar hurrying enraged
Through prison darkness after the drills of his eyes

On a short fierce fuse. Not in boredom—
The eye satisfied to be blind in fire,
By the bang of blood in the brain deaf the ear—
He spins from the bars, but there's no cage to him

More than to the visionary his cell:
His stride is wildernesses of freedom:
The world rolls under the long thrust of his heel.
Over the cage floor the horizons come.

Ted Hughes


I love those poems,

Gender Identity: you are a non polar gender person.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.  After years of struggling frantically to force myself to identify as "female," I now identify pretty strongly as third gendered.

Gender Biology: you have or desire mixed sexual anatomy.

I'd like to look more masculine.  I dislike my hips, bubble-butt, weak muscles and squeaky voice.  I hate--hate hate HATE--my boobs.  I'm more or less indifferent to the bottom region one way or the other; I suppose I'd like that area to be more ambiguous also but I'm not distressed over it the way I am over the other stuff.

Communication style: you do or wish to have mixed gender communication styles or voice sound.

I wish I didn't have a stupid squeaky voice.  I'm often ACCUSED of communicating "like a man," whatever that means, usually as a way to silence me and dismiss what I'm saying.  Apparently offering a rational counterargument to something that my interlocutor feels vewy stwongly is oppressive and patriarchal.  Then again, if I should happen to manifest emotion, I am being "hysterical" and need to "calm down."


Socially: you do or wish to relate to others as a non polar gender person.

Ugh, how do you even do that?  Because I'm so big, I can't NOT be read as female anymore, even when I wear all-male attire.  I wish I could be read as non gender polar, but since most people seem to have an urgent need to assign you a binary gender it's just that, a wish.


Clothing: you do or want to dress in mixed or neutral clothing.

My clothing is increasingly blokey to offset my feminine appearance.


Intimate Relationship: you do or wish to be involved in a romantic relationship in a non polar way or manner.

Wish. I'm working on it with my partner.


Character: you do or want to have characteristics that are androgynous.

Want to have.

Values and Virtues: you do or want to have goals and values that are universal and without gender limit.

The idea of goals and values having a gender limit is meaningless to me.

Religion or Beliefs: you do or want to belong to a group of people with beliefs that support your androgynous beliefs.

Yes and no.  Certain elements of the heathen mainstream would like to see me and people like me horsewhipped and bogged.  I've been lucky enough to encounter groups and individuals who support me, however.


Gender Roles: you do or want to allow yourself to doing mixed or undefined  gender role activities.

Always have.

Gender Behavior: you do or feel the urge to behave in mixed gender ways.

Always have.

Politically: you androgyny affects who you vote for and what issues are important to you in the political sense.

Not exactly.  I support rights for people of all kinds of genders, not just mine.

Educational: your androgyny helps you and influences the types of knowledge and interests (or barriers you break) in your quest for higher learning.

Always has.


Literary: your androgyny influences what types of authors or stories you read.

Not exactly.  I was keen to read "boy's books" as a kid.  Now I enjoy book with characters who share my characteristics, including androgyny.


Hobbies, sports, or interests: your androgyny influences what types you do.

Always has.

Thinking: do you feel you think in a androgynous way.

I don't understand what that means.  I experience myself as androgynous.


Career: do you feel it influences your occupation.

Along with other factors.  I've been continually denied my preferred kinds of employment for being the "wrong" gender, but then I've been denied employment over things like having epilepsy etc. too.

Music, Movies, Entertainment

?

Pronouns and Gender Referrences

I've struggled with this one, really.  Most of the time, if I am honest, I don't feel like anything except an it--something broken, unacceptable, less than human.  This makes it very hard to hold space for a neuter pronoun like "ze."  Also I have to confess that logically "she" or "he" aren't inappropriate, although they both sting a little for very different reasons.

Science: Support or desire scientific information, tests, and research that may help explain or make androgyny understood scientifically.

I support scientific investigation of the human condition, including gender, as an antidote to bigotry and ignorance.