I have been working on a coming our letter and have been trying to explain every little detail about my past. While I would say I am fairly feminine and know that my family detects that as well, there are some "masculine" interests that I feel I would have to explain. They are kind of silly, but it makes me sad that people might question my identity because of them. The two things that concern me are my love for music and video games. Growing up I always was listening to music and particularly loved metal. Most of my child hood was spent alone in my room learning how to play songs and master the guitar. I always was playing guitar or writing something. In addition to that, I always loved playing video games. I know these activities are associated with boys and it bothers me that people will probably see me as male because of this. But, these activities were a big part of my childhood. I was always very shy and had difficulties socializing with others as myself because of obvious reasons. Therefore, I always found refuge in these sort of solitary activities. However, I know people will deem them as masculine and maybe deny my identity because of it. I fear I will get " oh women don't listen to Ozzy and play metal, if you were really a girl you would have learned how to play Madonna songs". I can't help that I have a wide taste in music and that metal and progressive rock are my favourite genres.
Did anyone have concerns about having their identity being rejected because of interests,hobbies or something in their past? Or am I the only one that has this fear?
I absolutely can relate to this topic. I am in the same position as well. Growing up I was into organized sports. I played little league and highschool baseball. On top of that I made all stars almost every year. DISCLAIMER: I am not trying to brag I couldn't stand the game, some things girls do to please their father ::) ) I also enjoy sport fishing, palying vidoe games and skateboarding. I also held a job in construction or fabrication for over 10 years.
Recently I had come out to my brother, and of course he started questioning me about my interests. Saying something along the lines that I never did anything femanine. So I ended up just explaining it to him. I said that yes that was me, and I do enjoy doing all those things, but there are alot of interest that I couldn't share with you that are almost exclusivly femanine. So all you have seen is what I have allowed you to see. Yes I like to go fishing, but I also love to go shopping with my besties and getting pedicures. Yes I love skateboarding, but I also love decorating. You can't make the assumption of doing a stereotypical male activity makes me male. Those are just things that I do. They don't make me male or female.
I also gave him another example to further open his eyes. I told him to look at our other two sisters and how they are in stark contrast to each other. My older sister used to play all the sports with me baseball, fotball etc.. She was even better then he was at them. Would you deny that she is a woman? My twin sister is the exact opposite, definition of super girly girl. But, she knows more about cars then he could ever hope to, and she has helped my dad restore cars in the past. We as people are far more complex and interesting than just a couple of interest that happen to be classed as a male or female activity.
<3 Liv
i wouldnt say those are guy things. lots of girls were into metAl in the 80s and early 90s, and video games lots of girls like those too. maybe not for 14 hours at a time but we will still pay them. and sports. totally not a guys only thing. i did cheer leading, volleyball (and still participate in both as of this week) and softball/ track and i have always been girly.
ps dont think im hard core at all because i did for softball was stand in the outfield and talk to the others haha.
Quote from: learningtolive on May 25, 2013, 10:10:43 AM
I have been working on a coming our letter and have been trying to explain every little detail about my past. While I would say I am fairly feminine and know that my family detects that as well, there are some "masculine" interests that I feel I would have to explain. They are kind of silly, but it makes me sad that people might question my identity because of them. The two things that concern me are my love for music and video games. Growing up I always was listening to music and particularly loved metal. Most of my child hood was spent alone in my room learning how to play songs and master the guitar. I always was playing guitar or writing something. In addition to that, I always loved playing video games. I know these activities are associated with boys and it bothers me that people will probably see me as male because of this. But, these activities were a big part of my childhood. I was always very shy and had difficulties socializing with others as myself because of obvious reasons. Therefore, I always found refuge in these sort of solitary activities. However, I know people will deem them as masculine and maybe deny my identity because of it. I fear I will get " oh women don't listen to Ozzy and play metal, if you were really a girl you would have learned how to play Madonna songs". I can't help that I have a wide taste in music and that metal and progressive rock are my favourite genres.
Did anyone have concerns about having their identity being rejected because of interests,hobbies or something in their past? Or am I the only one that has this fear?
Honestly, I don't see either of those things as really masculine. Aren't most rock band groupies female? Music isn't really gendered. For those who think that way, it's more divided into 'stuff everyone can listen to' and 'stuff guys should never listen to'. There's no 'stuff girls shouldn't listen to' category lol.
Video games are a pretty neutral hobby these days I'd think. Course, it may depend on the genre.
Quote from: girl you look fierce on May 25, 2013, 10:57:05 AM
I don't really have masculine interests so I didn't worry about this that much, but honestly you only make yourself look bad if you try to explain it, don't make concessions, it is what it is and you should make it clear to them that they don't get to asses your validity, your happiness is your validity.
This. Thinking you have to make excuses for it is the wrong way to go about it. If someone brings it up, just be like 'seriously?'
As an aside, I really don't think it's odd at all for someone raised male to have developed masculine interests. Think about it. Girls raised in rural areas or by single fathers, with lots of brothers, etc often develop more stereotypically masculine interests and skills. We're not immune to our environment and socialization just because we're trans.
Quote from: girl you look fierce on May 25, 2013, 10:57:05 AM
I don't really have masculine interests so I didn't worry about this that much, but honestly you only make yourself look bad if you try to explain it, don't make concessions, it is what it is and you should make it clear to them that they don't get to asses your validity, your happiness is your validity.
I mean even I don't totally understand it when MTFs have almost all masculine interests but I had to accept that it doesn't matter what I think, I don't get to decide anyone's validity and there is no reason I should.
I'm not sure if that comment is directed towards me or in general, but I will comment as if it was directed towards me.
I hardly think taking the time to educate someone makes me look bad. I was not explaining myself to validate my own conclusions. I was trying to help him to understand his own misconceptions. This was in no way about being validated as a woman. This was to try to get him to understand that interests don't make the woman. They are simply interests, nothing more nothing less. The thing to remember is that I am not the only one transitioning. The people close to you are on the same journey. I think to just come out to someone close with little explaination other then just telling them to accept it is inconsiderate of their position.
I find the last part of your post interesting. It seems as though you would have the same reaction as my brother. That having alot of male interests would some how make me less of a woman or in this case a transwoman. I also found it somewhat ironic that in the first paragraph you said that they don't have the right to asses your validity, yet in the second paragraph it sounds as though you are trying to asses their validity based on their interests as well. Food for thought I guess. :-\
I hope your are not going to take this post with anysort of malicous intent. That is not my aim at all. I am merely trying to respond with my own opinion. I completely respect your opinion and point of view.
<3 Liv
There aren't any hobbies/interests that I can think of that are exclusively male/female. I even have a few male friends who like to shop for shoes and accessories. Guy shoes and accessories but good luck telling them that.
Furthermore the companies that make the products for those hobbies/interests are increasingly reaching out to females because its a market they haven't been able to attract before. Otherwise why offer pink gaming consol equipment? Same with rock bands. You don't just have to buy a guys small or steal your boy friends tshirt anymore to have one. As for hunting and fishing come on I saw a pink camo shotgun the other day at Academy Sports.
Personally I like the same things, music and games. And when it has come to shopping I have always liked shopping for watches because in my family that was the only accessory that was okay for a boy to shop for. I always liked necklaces and rings and my family did discourage me from shopping for those. It is apparently best to receive those items as gifts from a family member or girl friend if you are a boy. And you don't get a chance to pick them out or ever really know your size. SO yeah I have a lot of watches.... :D and yes because I have small wrists many of them are children's or ladies watches.
The way I see it, competitive and challenging activities are common male pursuits, while aesthetic and creative activities trend female. I always loved video games, for instance - but only the more creative 'building' sorts. I've always been horrible at major competitive elements.
Not really. I used to fix a lot of things, mechanical, electrical, etc. and had and could use well all the welding equipment/plasma cutter I had for most any metals, especially aluminum and stainless. I'm kind of sad that I had to sell all of it, but I needed the money when I was unemployed for so long during the early part of my transition. The main thing that I think bothers some was that I quit doing it out of losing interest in most of it. I still do things for myself and help out close neighbors and family, but beyond that I really don't have the inclination or time to do it for others.
With that said, I just finished taking out the 4k generator that was in my neighbor's rv since he has been using a different one that is installed on the back porch of it. So its still nice to know I can do that stuff and without putting much effort into it.
Quote from: girl you look fierce on May 25, 2013, 11:49:10 AM
Oh I'm sorry you thought that, I replied to the OP only and hadn't even read yours yet when I replied.
There is an impulse to assess people's validity on their interests and personality, I'm not gonna lie because I've become very aware of gender differences in transition and they jump out at me. It CAN be hard to think of someone whose traits remind you of males as a woman... I can't help that I struggle with that, it's not prejudice, like I said it is just an impulse that says "that doesn't match."
The point I was trying to make is that it would not be fair for me to judge other people just because of that impulse. And it's not fair for anyone else to either....
I completly agree. That impulse is something innate in all of us. I too struggle to tell that impulse to shut up. I think I was trying to make that very same point to my brother. :laugh: I should probably clarify a tad as well, I was in no way offended by your post. I was trying to make it sound that way. It is hard for me to convey tone in written word sometimes. ;)
<3 Liv
Thanks for all the input so far.
I would consider myself very feminine as I have a lot of interests that are girly, but I always feel concerned about what people might say about my music and love for video games. Still, I got into gaming because my two older sisters were into it. Plus, most of the love for metal came from me borrowing my older sisters music. So, I guess I shouldn't worry about it being too boyish. Besides, those are about the only "male" activities that really interest me. I just love writing music and being creative for myself. Overall, I feel very girly and don't feel concerned about myself. And even though I love metal, my desired style of dressing and appearance is very similar to other girls my age. Plus my family always makes comments about my girly qualities and I'm certain they suspect something. However, I just get scared about being rejected and not having people accept me as a girl. I have spent so long living as a male and feel very tired. I can't go on much longer living as boy. But I just don't want to be rejected when I finally come out. I just want to be accepted as one of the girls and I get afraid that it won't happen. Like I am going to be written off as male for the rest of my life because of how I was born and stupid things like enjoying playing the guitar. I just wish I could be like other girls my age. It sucks because I fear everyone (my family, other girls, boys) are all going to judge me and not allow me into the "girls club" if you will. I care deeply about how others think and feel about me, so I get worried.
Eh, if you were into heavy bodybuilding, American football, car mechanics or guns, maybe an explanation would be nice (even though ultimately gender stereotypes are bad and blah blah, but that's not the poin here), but video games and metal, seriously, no. Those are only somewhat more masculine interests statistically. Video games were a lot of a male thing maybe 5-10 ago, but not anymore. For example, in Dragon Nest, there's, what, 1/3 girls? And people are just not surprised that people are girls anymore, because there's only a small majority of guys on most games now. Well, if we're talking about first-person shooters and such, maybe, but even then! I'm convinced there's at the very least 15 % girls there too!
Well, perfume, that vastly depends, to be honest. Maybe you just never smelled the right perfume. Me, for example, I very much hate the kinds of perfumes that are strong, and I dunno how to call it, "musky" or "woody", and also sour scents like citrus and a few flowers. Chanel no. 5, for example. And that kind of perfume just so happens to be the favourite of those damned old women who use way too much perfume. That led me to think I hated perfume... but then I smelled sweeter, lighter perfumes, like those weaker ones with rose or fruits like strawberry, and I'm honestly considering buying some perfume sometime.
I get people telling me all the time that videogames are a "male" hobby even though I have at least 5 women on my Xbox friends list, just like them I prefer co-op games to competetive games but I hold my own on Battlefield 3.
I don't see anything as exclusively male or female, it's just a case of whatever floats your boat & to hell with naysayers
Cis women don't have to explain why they do video games, guitar, metalworking, shooting or any other typically male activity.
Why should we?
I consider this, at times...
The way I see it - How could one avoid developing "masculine" interests and hobbies when you are immersed in that gender?
It would be like living in Country "A" all of your life, and then moving to Country "B" without having been influenced by a lifetime spent in your country of origin.
I'd say it's perfectly natural, and wouldn't let it be a distraction.
I used to be a hardcore corvette collector when I had the $$ and thoroughly enjoyed them. If I had the $ now I would own another 74 that is my absolute favorite year for them. I still have old acquaintances call me and ask me tech questions. all I have left now is a 90 Iroc which though is no where near what I was used to it is still fun to drive. And nothing kills a guys ego more then rolling down the window and letting him know he just got beat by a girl ;-)
Quote from: learningtolive on May 25, 2013, 10:10:43 AM
The two things that concern me are my love for music and video games.
Most everyone likes music. Music is an expression of the sole. As far as video games go, Some of the biggest gamers I know are CIS women. Neither are more associated with men or women.
I agree with all the people above, yes. I have lots of female (and male) friends, and about all of them like video games and/or music. Okay, they're not all die hard metal lovers, but at least one loves hard rock more than anything, and has clearly stated she identifies as a woman and nothing else. ;)
But yeah, even though I experience it from the other end of the spectrum, I know the feeling. I have mainly masculine in my hobbies and interests, but am really emotional and chatty for example. I wouldn't want to give that side of myself up, as I don't see it as exclusively female, just... 'social'. Nevertheless I'm constantly fussing about tiny things like these, just because 'how to pass' guides say it's inappropriate to smile at strangers as a man (unless you're looking for a hookup) or get too 'emotional' and 'involved' in things. :s
A cismale having these traits would simply pride himself for being a nice guy. One who asks his girlfriend what's wrong when she's down and talks things over with her first instead of hitting the 'denial' or 'ignore and carry on' button. But I, as a non genetic male, feel that every little thing which is not 'in order' offsets me from what is considered "male", even though I know this is BS, I can't help to get affected by it...
Somehow I sometimes start overthinking things too much, because sometimes I feel like I have to 'learn' to be a man, which is kind of ridiculous, because I AM a man, though not one in the usual 'shape', lol.
Quote from: mandyh92 on May 25, 2013, 02:33:07 PM
I used to be a hardcore corvette collector when I had the $$ and thoroughly enjoyed them. If I had the $ now I would own another 74 that is my absolute favorite year for them. I still have old acquaintances call me and ask me tech questions. all I have left now is a 90 Iroc which though is no where near what I was used to it is still fun to drive. And nothing kills a guys ego more then rolling down the window and letting him know he just got beat by a girl ;-)
Mandy please don't take this the wrong way but that is hot!
There's a ton of female metal bands...don't listen to other people, just like what you like. I play video games constantly and I'm a girl. So what?
Quote from: Miss Bungle on May 25, 2013, 04:17:16 PM
Because other people see what they want to see. I dropped a million hints between ages 4 and 12 hoping somebody would get a clue. They all that it was a "phase".
"Phases" don't last 8 years. ::)
So true! xD
Quote from: learningtolive on May 25, 2013, 10:10:43 AM
I have been working on a coming our letter and have been trying to explain every little detail about my past. While I would say I am fairly feminine and know that my family detects that as well, there are some "masculine" interests that I feel I would have to explain. They are kind of silly, but it makes me sad that people might question my identity because of them. The two things that concern me are my love for music and video games. Growing up I always was listening to music and particularly loved metal. Most of my child hood was spent alone in my room learning how to play songs and master the guitar. I always was playing guitar or writing something. In addition to that, I always loved playing video games. I know these activities are associated with boys and it bothers me that people will probably see me as male because of this. But, these activities were a big part of my childhood. I was always very shy and had difficulties socializing with others as myself because of obvious reasons. Therefore, I always found refuge in these sort of solitary activities. However, I know people will deem them as masculine and maybe deny my identity because of it. I fear I will get " oh women don't listen to Ozzy and play metal, if you were really a girl you would have learned how to play Madonna songs". I can't help that I have a wide taste in music and that metal and progressive rock are my favourite genres.
Did anyone have concerns about having their identity being rejected because of interests,hobbies or something in their past? Or am I the only one that has this fear?
Kia Ora Learningtolive,
You should do a poll for both M2Fs and F2Ms, on who likes to play video game and listen to heavy metal...
I listen to all kinds of music, always have done, but I'm not into playing video games, but then that's just me and my interests...
Metta Zenda :)
Not every girl has to be girly girly and not every guy has to be super macho tough. My interests are across a variety of the spectrum, both masculine and feminine. I could care less if people don't like it.
I love what I love.
Quote from: MaidofOrleans on May 25, 2013, 06:48:36 PM
Not every girl has to be girly girly and not every guy has to be super macho tough. My interests are across a variety of the spectrum, both masculine and feminine. I could care less if people don't like it.
I love what I love.
You said it well. Just be yourself. There is no right way to be a guy or a girl. Just be yourself and happy :)
Just keep swimming
Thanks everyone. I'm just panicking a bit because I'm coming out and starting hormones fairly soon. My therapist wants me to bring in a coming out letter next session and it all clicked that I will shortly be exposed to everyone around me for real. With my disclosure being so near in the future, I keep getting scared about being labelled delusional or always being thought of as male. I want to be accepted as female and need people to realize this is who I am. I have spent my whole life afraid of being myself out of fear of rejection and societal backlash. Now that I'm finally moving forward, I know that I'm going to have to face naysayers, deniers, and rejection. So, I feel the need to explain every single little detail about me. Still, you are right. It's stupid to worry about little things and we all have diverse interests regardless of gender. Besides, if the most masculine things about me is that I like to play guitar, listen to metal, and play video games, than maybe there isn't much to worry about. God, I just hope coming out will be easy and everyone can accept me as a girl. It's my biggest fear that I will never be accepted as a female by anyone and will be seen as a guy forever. But I need to overcome these fears and just keep moving ahead.
I'm going to be bad note in this topic. Male hobbies and traits. Female hobbies and traits. I don't think they exist in a state of nature. I believe they are social constructs and result from modeling encouraged by adults. There may exist behavioral attributes, perhaps instinctive, but I do not see any trait or hobbies that are indicative of gender. It is a blur.
I guess I am the naysayer in the title of the topic.
I had one interest from early childhood that was almost exclusively masculine. It was hot, dirty, and heavy work and rather uncommon - maintaining and operating steam engines. When I transitioned almost 40 years ago, I gave it up - I really DON'T like being hot and dirty - but after almost 20 years I really missed it. I also realized I have skills and knowledge that were becoming very rare so I ventured back into my unusual hobby. Oh, it raised a few eyebrows at first but I found others in the pursuit were very accepting, like they thought it was "cute" having a girl running an engine.
After a few years one of the very senior gentleman came up to me (on a steam engine) and said "I always thought this was a very manly activity but watching you for the last while and the way you handle an engine I have to say that you certainly bring a feminine side to it. I am impressed!"
When you become yourself, you take YOURSELF into whatever you do and you make that activity your own. You take your own unique character into it and your touch will change the perception of your passions.
This is such an irrational and unjustified fear. However common.
Quote from: Jamie D on May 26, 2013, 04:56:03 AM
I'm going to be bad note in this topic. Male hobbies and traits. Female hobbies and traits. I don't think they exist in a state of nature. I believe they are social constructs and result from modeling encouraged by adults. There may exist behavioral attributes, perhaps instinctive, but I do not see any trait or hobbies that are indicative of gender. It is a blur.
I guess I am the naysayer in the title of the topic.
Actually, I quite agree with you. What you said is completely reasonable. The naysayers I refer to are those who deny your gender identity because of perceived masculine interests. Those who say you can't be female because.... You don't fit into that description.
I'm realizing it is a stupid fear and I don't really have to worry about justifying every aspect of myself or all my interests just because I'm trans. I just don't want people to see me as a guy forever and can't help but feel like I will be doomed forever to be viewed as one. While little things like this are stupid, I can't help but get scared about any possibility of me getting rejected and not being accepted as a female.
I get told I'm not trans enough because I go to the punk festival,like punk/rock/metal/muscle cars and classic cars and bikes and can shoot pool.I don't care I'm OK being me.
I can relate too, i love nu metal, i love muscle cars (i want another Mustang or a GTO) i love working on cars, and i can outshoot most guys my age at 1,000 yards. But here is the great thing, unless your religion prevents it you can like/love what ever hoby, sport, pastime, musical genre etc. on the earth....or even off it if that's what you really want. At the same time tho you can also make those loves as feminine as you want to. Pink neons on a car, pink camo on a gun, pink guitar with a purple pick, and instead of headbanging till your nech/head hurts at a concert, look around and see what the other girls at concerts are doing (chances are they will be crowd surfing or in a pit any way) but no matter what, you are who you are and you like what you like.....be yourself and don't let anyone EVER try to change that.
Hope i could help some.
One last thing to add,
let the haters be your motivation, not what holds you back from your dreams.
Go get em girl!!
Quote from: kariann330 on May 26, 2013, 11:25:27 PM
I can relate too, i love nu metal, i love muscle cars (i want another Mustang or a GTO) i love working on cars, and i can outshoot most guys my age at 1,000 yards. But here is the great thing, unless your religion prevents it you can like/love what ever hoby, sport, pastime, musical genre etc. on the earth....or even off it if that's what you really want. At the same time tho you can also make those loves as feminine as you want to. Pink neons on a car, pink camo on a gun, pink guitar with a purple pick, and instead of headbanging till your nech/head hurts at a concert, look around and see what the other girls at concerts are doing (chances are they will be crowd surfing or in a pit any way) but no matter what, you are who you are and you like what you like.....be yourself and don't let anyone EVER try to change that.
Hope i could help some.
Well, when I was a child I was told by a priest that I would be going to hell if I kept on listening to Ozzy and black sabbath. So, in a way my religion did prevent it,lol. Just imagine if I had told him that I was cross dressing and wanted to live as a girl. That would have been an interesting confessional conversation.
But in all seriousness your right. I don't even know why I worry because there are very few things about me that are masculine anyway.
I listen to a lot more female fronted music than I used to,Nightwish,Tarja,Within Temptation,Halestorm,Doro,Joan Jett & the Blackhearts & Paramore are usually on my playlist.When it comes to muscle cars a Moulin Rouge/Panther Pink 1970 Dodge Superbee is my favourite.
First good luck on coming out olive. Next recently I have had to deal with the fact that just because I feel like a female does not mean I need to change. I had a metaphorical slap in the face by a good friend of mine. I needed it and now I realize that I have tried to be somebody I am not. I am me and I have my own likes and dislikes.
For me the big change is I have tried to integrate more feminine things into my life, but really these things I am "integrating" are just things that are me. I am letting myself out and doing it little by little.