Asides from adjusting my estrogen dose I've been thinking about adding progesterone to my hormone regimen. So far from what I've read it's supposed to work along side estrogen to enhance its effects. Also for a short update, I'm just about five months into HRT with extremely minimal effects, only a slight reduction body hair and small breast buds that refuse to grow. So with that would it be to soon to start taking progesterone is my other question?
I'd recommend it but I recommend that you only use micronized P and not medroxyprogesterone acetate (provera). I'd also recommend toing 2 weeks on and two weeks off when using it.
progesterone is good for the boobies
*thumbs up*
yes they are good for the girls from what I've been reading, hopefully with that and a higher E dose I can finally start developing, I have my doctors appointment in a month. Been a tricky year with the HRT and hopefully I'll get my body :D
In addition to progesterone therapy consider gaining weight, at least temporarily. Weight gain will help with the size of your breasts. However, keep in mind that too much weight isn't advised, given we're more susceptible to insulin related illness.
Good luck.
Progesterone is a very big mystery. The last time I checked, there was pretty much just as much support for all claims:
-It helps breast growth, because glandular tissue is developed better under its influence.
-It has absolutely no effect on breast growth, because girls have pretty much all of their breast growth when their blood levels of progesterone are low.
-It hinders breast growth and development in general, because progesterone acts like an androgen in several ways.
And to be honest none of the points of view managed to convince me more than the others. This is mainly because no one cares about progesterone in trans women, so most of the data available is deduced, not checked.
Quote from: A on May 27, 2013, 02:02:21 PM
-It hinders breast growth and development in general, because progesterone acts like an androgen in several ways.
This last point really scares me and is one of the main reasons I don't even want to try it. But then I hear it really enhances regular HRT effects. I know men can take P with no feminization.
Im going to have to talk about it with my doctor about the pros and cons of taking it. I might just give it ashot and see how it works out for me and hopefully thatll be really well.
Keep in mind , that most studies showing negative effects are MPA(provera) and not the same as biologic provera. It also has a way of sensitizing E receptors but may be counter productive to take a static daily dose. My doc is MtF and she talked me into a cyclic regimen and my breasts are suddenly sore again and feeling like they are growing.
I'm hoping with adding more E and taking progesterone that I'll finally start developing my body. I think my current dose is too low unfortunately. and btw would taking my estrogens sublingually help with absorption?
There are a lot of pros and cons about MtF's using Progesterone, most of it comes from doctors and specialists who routinely prescribe HRT regimen's for MtF patients that are really designed for menopausal and post menopausal women who's body's have long since feminized during the puberty phase of a normal cis girl. This usually takes place rapidly over the course of a few years whereas the feminizing process in MtF patient's often takes much longer due to relatively few estrogen sensors and lack of sensitivity. One of the arguments against progesterone for MtF's is that there are no female internal organs that require it, however what is often overlooked is that Progesterone is one of the elements that enhances breast development in young females during puberty. I found personally that a topically applied progesterone cream or oil not only enhances breast growth but helps in the development of the internal ducts and glands that make up part of the bulk of the breast. I noticed a marked increase in the size of my nipples as far as thickness goes and my aureola diameter increased dramatically as well. I had tried the pill form of progesterone along with estradiol pills half of which benefit is lost in the liver after it goes through the gut and eventually led to DVT so I use only topically applied meds now which I have discovered are much more effective. Just my two bits worth! ~ Shan ~
Yeah i've been thinking about starting progesterone but i've heard it can convert to testosterone and make you grow body & facial hair if not watched carfeully by a doctor. The pros i've heard are that it makes your breast bigger and rounder and makes your areolas bigger. I also heard for some people it helps even out mood swings caused by estrogen dominace and helps with anxiety & depression.
Quote from: JuliaVB on May 27, 2013, 10:26:04 AM
yes they are good for the girls from what I've been reading, hopefully with that and a higher E dose I can finally start developing, I have my doctors appointment in a month. Been a tricky year with the HRT and hopefully I'll get my body :D
No, no, no, no! progestin are contraindicated in HRT for cis or trans folks. WPATH and the Woman's Health Initiative (one of the largest study demonstrating an association between progestin and breast cancer) do not support the use in transgender HRT
The "progesterone thread" rises its ugly head every so often at Susan's...at the end of the day people will do what ever they want, and they would believe what ever they want, but as a women of sciences I would not recommend its use.
I've been on Progesterone now for almost 3 months and I would definitely say it has helped. My boobs seem to have become fuller and more rounded, and seem to be growing much faster. I would say that I've been moodier though and much more tired during the day. This all started around the time I started progesterone so I'm going to assume it's the cause.
My endo swears by it alongside pellet implants.
I've been getting progesterone the entire time I've been on HRT, and my breast growth has been stellar for what I was expecting. My mom is a B cup, and I was already fitting into B cups after 5 months.
Keep in mind I haven't once taken any form of AA, I haven't suffered from mood swings at all, nor have I even had my levels checked (I will for the first time in about 6 weeks). I cannot think of a single negative side effect experienced.
I have also heard that with E & P it is a balancing act and achieves a better mental state than with just E alone.
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/whi/estro_pro.htm (http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/whi/estro_pro.htm)
Got lots of experts out there but I use it and it works! My menopausal spouse is required to use it along with her estrogen because she still has her female organs and estrogen alone will cause endometrial or ovarian cancer, the progesterone creates a balance. In both instances we are using bio-identical plant based topically applied hormones that are made by a compounding pharmacy as opposed to chemically produced hormones that are made by Wyeth and Merck labs. Bio-identicals are much safer by far.
peky- it looks like all the studies were done with oral progestin... I'm not surprised at all that it finished with a negative outcome.
I'd be curious to see what they would find administering with injections, creams, or pellet implants. That would be a real test. As Shantel mentioned, avoiding as much of the liver interaction seems key.
I took bioidentical oral progesterone (Prometrium) in 10-14 day cycles for I think two months (maybe three?). My experience with it was that it made my boobs feel bigger while I was on it, but they would feel smaller again between cycles. The biggest issue I had with it was that I noticed that my hair had started growing faster again, probably as a result of its androgenic effects. At that point I'd been on E for about six months, and my facial/body hair had been growing very slowly, but it definitely did pick back up with the P in my system.
Quote from: peky on May 28, 2013, 07:09:49 PM
No, no, no, no! progestin are contraindicated in HRT for cis or trans folks. WPATH and the Woman's Health Initiative (one of the largest study demonstrating an association between progestin and breast cancer) do not support the use in transgender HRT
The "progesterone thread" rises its ugly head every so often at Susan's...at the end of the day people will do what ever they want, and they would believe what ever they want, but as a women of sciences I would not recommend its use.
Peky- You are a brilliant woman and I always respect what you have to say but I must disagree. They WHI ONLY looked at synthetic progestins (MPA_Provera) in the study which is not comparable to bioidentiacal progesterone. I wouldn't advise ANYONE to take MPA(medroxyprogesterone acetate/Provera) nor would I recommend taking progesterone as a static dose. GG's only have significant levels of progesterone for about half their cycle and progesterone helps balance the negative side effects of estrogen.
As a doc I know that when it comes to something as important as my transition, I sought out an expert, an endocrinologist that's been treating trans women for 30 years, and this is what he had to say on this very subject:
[The Annals of Internal Medicine on menopausal hormone therapy (HRT). Not a new study but a review of previous ones by data analysts from the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF), it painted a bleak picture of HRT whose benefits seemed limited to a diminished risk for osteoporotic fracture at the cost of increased risks for gall bladder disease, stroke, heart disease, potentially fatal lung clots and perhaps even breast cancer and dementia. This is not the first time this federal body has weighed in on the subject of HRT having made recommendations against it back in 2001 and 2004 after damaging reports by the "landmark" Women's Health Initiative Study (WHIMS) had been loudly and prematurely publicized, driving thousands of eligible women to needlessly abandon or avoid any forms of HRT.
The WHIMS examined the influence of one particular estrogenic product Premarin, containing some thirty different hormones, many of them equine and some of unknown nature, taken alone or in conjunction with a highly atypical synthetic progestin called Provera, which is about thirty times more potent than natural progesterone, in a one size fits all trial of hormones versus placebo. The patients involved in this study were poorly chosen having already spent more than a decade post-menopausal, so that the damage had already been done, and close to half of them switched from the hormones they were supposed to take without this being taken into account, during the course of the study. Other factors influencing their already compromised health such as obesity, alcohol consumption, and smoking were not accurately considered and the hormones being given were delivered by mouth so that they must first pass through the liver before reaching their target organs, a far from natural process.
Numerous follow up reports and recommendations have since been spawned from this ill-conceived, poorly executed study so irresponsibly publicized that, instead of oral Premarin and Provera solely being condemned, all forms of menopausal HRT, oral or otherwise, were dismissed out of hand. Now the USPSTF has entered the fray once again, using data largely derived from the WHIMS and related studies dealing with oral Premarin and Provera. The easiest way to make sense out of all this is by looking at the individual health outcomes that matter, whether for better or for worse.
Heart disease, the premier killer of women is far more lethal and frequent than breast cancer. Prior to menopause the natural ovarian hormones greatly reduce its risk but after menopause it skyrockets. When non-oral estradiol, the natural estrogen of women, is given to castrate female primates in adequate doses it greatly reduces heart disease compared with placebo, as it well should, given what we know scientifically about its mechanisms of action. Prempro studies failed to reproduce this result because equine estrogens cannot be converted into the crucial active byproduct of estradiol which naturally protects women from heart disease prior to menopause. Thankfully many modern physicians, particularly in Los Angeles today treat the menopause with non-oral estradiol and when its levels are adequately generated and stably maintained heart disease can be naturally prevented.
Another major concern of HRT is the risk for clots, to the legs, the lungs and the brain, leading to stroke or even sudden death. It is the liver first-pass that fuels this problem but whereas oral hormones augment these serious risks, the same is not true of nonoral estradiol, which can be delivered effectively using the modern Dot Matrix estradiol patch, a reliable, FDA approved platform, which, by the way is truly "bioidentical." In contrast, compounded forms of "Bioidentical Hormone Therapy" (BIHT) offer an unstable, erratic delivery platform for estrogen delivery which clearly disqualifies them from this preventive role. And the progesterone creams its purveyors have so popularized through clever marketing ploys tend to sequester under the skin, fueling depression and weight gain in a chemical manner while failing to be reliably delivered to the uterus for endometrial cancer prevention.
Gallbladder disease and elevations in triglycerides are also boosted only by oral forms of hormone therapy and are not a problem with nonoral estradiol. The concerns of this report about dementia are equally ill founded. The studies in question focused on loosely evaluated and defined cognitive dysfunction rather than actual, accurately identified dementia. Some degree of cognitive dysfunction is frequent in menopausal women relating to the use of antidepressant drugs, sedatives, alcohol use and even relating to depression in and of itself. The premise whereby hormone therapy might prevent or reduce dementia and depression is by increasing brain levels of estradiol. But oral equine estrogens paradoxically reduce brain estradiol levels rather than increasing them, by virtue of reducing hormonal access to the brain. In contrast, non-oral estradiol raises brain estradiol levels.
This leads us to the topic of breast cancer, the greatest fear of menopausal women. Now in the WHIM study even oral Premarin reduced rather than increased breast cancer when given without Provera. Provera seemed to be the only hormonal cause of an increased risk but this progestin is highly atypical whereas natural progesterone, particularly when given vaginally so as to minimize access to the breasts should not pose a threat. Finally the administration of estrogen and progesterone to women inadvertently reduces their levels of testosterone. Low-dose nonoral testosterone therapy can then be of great benefit by further reducing or reversing osteoporosis and physical aging, reversing depression and perhaps dementia and even reducing breast cancer risk to a further degree.
The results of HRT studies over the last ten or so years may be justifiably critical of oral equine estrogens used with one particular progestin but it does not follow that non-oral natural estradiol and progesterone need to be avoided, indeed they offer a potent, user-friendly natural form of preventive health care in women. And by this I do not mean "bioidentical Hormones". BIHT is a loose marketing buzzword used after the WHIMS scare, to exploit the vacuum it created. The estrogens it offers were never tested, measured or evaluated, and they appear to be a highly erratic platform for estrogen delivery, thus eliminating its benefits. Menopausal HRT can be a boon to the modern women, without putting her at breast cancer risk. In fact over the last 25 years while treating menopausal women with estradiol, progesterone and low-dose testosterone in a sophisticated and precise manner, I have not seen a single case (touch wood) of breast cancer complicating this treatment. To sum up, it's fine when bean counters count expertly, but they also need to know their beans.
Quote from: PoisonEnvy on May 28, 2013, 06:21:34 PM
Yeah i've been thinking about starting progesterone but i've heard it can convert to testosterone and make you grow body & facial hair if not watched carfeully by a doctor. The pros i've heard are that it makes your breast bigger and rounder and makes your areolas bigger. I also heard for some people it helps even out mood swings caused by estrogen dominace and helps with anxiety & depression.
Estradiol doesn't cause mood swings. Depression, in a few cases, yes, not unheard of. But the only way estradiol can cause mood swings is if its levels are in "swings" too.
Quote from: JuliaVB on May 28, 2013, 10:36:07 AM
I'm hoping with adding more E and taking progesterone that I'll finally start developing my body. I think my current dose is too low unfortunately. and btw would taking my estrogens sublingually help with absorption?
Taking your pills sublingually works to improve absorption as well as reduce risks.
Quote from: JessicaH on May 28, 2013, 01:53:37 AM
Keep in mind , that most studies showing negative effects are MPA(provera) and not the same as biologic provera. It also has a way of sensitizing E receptors but may be counter productive to take a static daily dose. My doc is MtF and she talked me into a cyclic regimen and my breasts are suddenly sore again and feeling like they are growing.
Make sure you're not just seeing them swell and shrink because of the cycle. Maybe they do grow for real, but there's also a chance they only grow temporarily.
Quote from: Shantel on May 28, 2013, 07:43:11 PM
Got lots of experts out there but I use it and it works! My menopausal spouse is required to use it along with her estrogen because she still has her female organs and estrogen alone will cause endometrial or ovarian cancer, the progesterone creates a balance. In both instances we are using bio-identical plant based topically applied hormones that are made by a compounding pharmacy as opposed to chemically produced hormones that are made by Wyeth and Merck labs. Bio-identicals are much safer by far.
Excuse me, what? Plant-based and bioidentical? You do know that's contradictory, right? If it comes from a plant, the only thing it's bioidentical to is plant hormones. There are only two physically possible ways of obtaining bioidentical hormones, no? Either you take them from a human, either you synthetically copy them from looking at human hormones. The first choice is hardly ethical, and the second is precisely what Estrace (an "artificial" pill) is.
Quote from: A on May 29, 2013, 08:49:49 AM
Excuse me, what? Plant-based and bioidentical? You do know that's contradictory, right? If it comes from a plant, the only thing it's bioidentical to is plant hormones. There are only two physically possible ways of obtaining bioidentical hormones, no? Either you take them from a human, either you synthetically copy them from looking at human hormones. The first choice is hardly ethical, and the second is precisely what Estrace (an "artificial" pill) is.
Uh-huh another pharmaceutical expert. Tell that to a naturopathic MD or the compounding pharmacists. Results are proof enough for me. All the government statistics about HRT is based on what the major chemical companies are producing and the resultant problems encountered by ingesting manufactured chemicals and horse urine pills, we are comparing apples with oranges here and indulging in a bit of tunnel vision. "We never did it that way before" are the seven last words of a failed program. Said my piece, I'm out of this thread.
Pellets, creams, patches, or injections. Choose one and get off the pills. Avoid health risks, live longer, be happier, feminize faster. Seems like a win win win win to me.
I've been thinking about switching to injections but not sure how that'll work, as in how to get them and I'm sure I'll be shown how to administer them too
Quote from: JuliaVB on May 29, 2013, 03:07:00 PM
I've been thinking about switching to injections but not sure how that'll work, as in how to get them and I'm sure I'll be shown how to administer them too
I'm not sure, I was always under the impression that the endocrinologist does it. I'm getting estrogen + progesterone pellets with a progesterone booster injection and it's all done by my endo.
Quote from: Shantel on May 29, 2013, 09:34:49 AM
Uh-huh another pharmaceutical expert. Tell that to a naturopathic MD or the compounding pharmacists. Results are proof enough for me. All the government statistics about HRT is based on what the major chemical companies are producing and the resultant problems encountered by ingesting manufactured chemicals and horse urine pills, we are comparing apples with oranges here and indulging in a bit of tunnel vision. "We never did it that way before" are the seven last words of a failed program. Said my piece, I'm out of this thread.
Personally I wouldn't tell anything to a naturopath, I prefer having discussions with scientists. As for pharmacists, most ought to tell you what I'm about to...
Chemically something either is or isn't. Once you put aside inert materials used in producing the final product (which you will find no matter how you synthesize or extract the active compound), then you have the active compounds that make up the pharmaceutical product. That compound, no matter if it is chemically synthesized or extracted from a 'natural' source (the natural source itself also synthesizes it), simply is what it is. It's either the same chemical structure or it isn't.
Manufactured bioidentical hormones are what they are. Which is to say they are the compounds your body produces, only formed a different way. Chemically speaking they're the same, which is to say they are... the same.
Your body doesn't magically know and reject something because it somehow knows by magic the history of how it came to be. It only cares about what it in fact IS.
Premarin is an antiquated product that includes many non-human estrogen compounds, and so naturally it is not completely reliable in how it will behave in your body, but the actual compound estradiol in any given preparation is always the same no matter where it comes from. Differing only in the delivery system.
Quote from: DrBobbi on May 29, 2013, 05:41:24 AM
As a doc I know that when it comes to something as important as my transition, I sought out an expert, an endocrinologist that's been treating trans women for 30 years, and this is what he had to say on this very subject:
[The Annals of Internal Medicine on menopausal hormone therapy (HRT). Not a new study but a review of previous ones by data analysts from the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF), it painted a bleak picture of HRT whose benefits seemed limited to a diminished risk for osteoporotic fracture at the cost of increased risks for gall bladder disease, stroke, heart disease, potentially fatal lung clots and perhaps even breast cancer and dementia. This is not the first time this federal body has weighed in on the subject of HRT having made recommendations against it back in 2001 and 2004 after damaging reports by the "landmark" Women's Health Initiative Study (WHIMS) had been loudly and prematurely publicized, driving thousands of eligible women to needlessly abandon or avoid any forms of HRT.
The WHIMS examined the influence of one particular estrogenic product Premarin, containing some thirty different hormones, many of them equine and some of unknown nature, taken alone or in conjunction with a highly atypical synthetic progestin called Provera, which is about thirty times more potent than natural progesterone, in a one size fits all trial of hormones versus placebo. The patients involved in this study were poorly chosen having already spent more than a decade post-menopausal, so that the damage had already been done, and close to half of them switched from the hormones they were supposed to take without this being taken into account, during the course of the study. Other factors influencing their already compromised health such as obesity, alcohol consumption, and smoking were not accurately considered and the hormones being given were delivered by mouth so that they must first pass through the liver before reaching their target organs, a far from natural process.
Numerous follow up reports and recommendations have since been spawned from this ill-conceived, poorly executed study so irresponsibly publicized that, instead of oral Premarin and Provera solely being condemned, all forms of menopausal HRT, oral or otherwise, were dismissed out of hand. Now the USPSTF has entered the fray once again, using data largely derived from the WHIMS and related studies dealing with oral Premarin and Provera. The easiest way to make sense out of all this is by looking at the individual health outcomes that matter, whether for better or for worse.
Heart disease, the premier killer of women is far more lethal and frequent than breast cancer. Prior to menopause the natural ovarian hormones greatly reduce its risk but after menopause it skyrockets. When non-oral estradiol, the natural estrogen of women, is given to castrate female primates in adequate doses it greatly reduces heart disease compared with placebo, as it well should, given what we know scientifically about its mechanisms of action. Prempro studies failed to reproduce this result because equine estrogens cannot be converted into the crucial active byproduct of estradiol which naturally protects women from heart disease prior to menopause. Thankfully many modern physicians, particularly in Los Angeles today treat the menopause with non-oral estradiol and when its levels are adequately generated and stably maintained heart disease can be naturally prevented.
Another major concern of HRT is the risk for clots, to the legs, the lungs and the brain, leading to stroke or even sudden death. It is the liver first-pass that fuels this problem but whereas oral hormones augment these serious risks, the same is not true of nonoral estradiol, which can be delivered effectively using the modern Dot Matrix estradiol patch, a reliable, FDA approved platform, which, by the way is truly "bioidentical." In contrast, compounded forms of "Bioidentical Hormone Therapy" (BIHT) offer an unstable, erratic delivery platform for estrogen delivery which clearly disqualifies them from this preventive role. And the progesterone creams its purveyors have so popularized through clever marketing ploys tend to sequester under the skin, fueling depression and weight gain in a chemical manner while failing to be reliably delivered to the uterus for endometrial cancer prevention.
Gallbladder disease and elevations in triglycerides are also boosted only by oral forms of hormone therapy and are not a problem with nonoral estradiol. The concerns of this report about dementia are equally ill founded. The studies in question focused on loosely evaluated and defined cognitive dysfunction rather than actual, accurately identified dementia. Some degree of cognitive dysfunction is frequent in menopausal women relating to the use of antidepressant drugs, sedatives, alcohol use and even relating to depression in and of itself. The premise whereby hormone therapy might prevent or reduce dementia and depression is by increasing brain levels of estradiol. But oral equine estrogens paradoxically reduce brain estradiol levels rather than increasing them, by virtue of reducing hormonal access to the brain. In contrast, non-oral estradiol raises brain estradiol levels.
This leads us to the topic of breast cancer, the greatest fear of menopausal women. Now in the WHIM study even oral Premarin reduced rather than increased breast cancer when given without Provera. Provera seemed to be the only hormonal cause of an increased risk but this progestin is highly atypical whereas natural progesterone, particularly when given vaginally so as to minimize access to the breasts should not pose a threat. Finally the administration of estrogen and progesterone to women inadvertently reduces their levels of testosterone. Low-dose nonoral testosterone therapy can then be of great benefit by further reducing or reversing osteoporosis and physical aging, reversing depression and perhaps dementia and even reducing breast cancer risk to a further degree.
The results of HRT studies over the last ten or so years may be justifiably critical of oral equine estrogens used with one particular progestin but it does not follow that non-oral natural estradiol and progesterone need to be avoided, indeed they offer a potent, user-friendly natural form of preventive health care in women. And by this I do not mean "bioidentical Hormones". BIHT is a loose marketing buzzword used after the WHIMS scare, to exploit the vacuum it created. The estrogens it offers were never tested, measured or evaluated, and they appear to be a highly erratic platform for estrogen delivery, thus eliminating its benefits. Menopausal HRT can be a boon to the modern women, without putting her at breast cancer risk. In fact over the last 25 years while treating menopausal women with estradiol, progesterone and low-dose testosterone in a sophisticated and precise manner, I have not seen a single case (touch wood) of breast cancer complicating this treatment. To sum up, it's fine when bean counters count expertly, but they also need to know their beans.
Well doc, here is what the "Endocrine Society" promotes
http://www.endo-society.org/guidelines/final/upload/endocrine-treatment-of-transsexual-persons.pdf (http://www.endo-society.org/guidelines/final/upload/endocrine-treatment-of-transsexual-persons.pdf)
Dr. Peky
Quote from: Shantel on May 29, 2013, 09:34:49 AM
Uh-huh another pharmaceutical expert. Tell that to a naturopathic MD or the compounding pharmacists. Results are proof enough for me. All the government statistics about HRT is based on what the major chemical companies are producing and the resultant problems encountered by ingesting manufactured chemicals and horse urine pills, we are comparing apples with oranges here and indulging in a bit of tunnel vision. "We never did it that way before" are the seven last words of a failed program. Said my piece, I'm out of this thread.
I think you misunderstood. I never meant to say it was not a good product. I'm just saying that coming from plants and being bioidentical are two physically incompatible statements. Even if one of those two is a lie, it can still be effective; what do I know?
Quote from: Jennygirl on May 29, 2013, 03:02:05 PM
Pellets, creams, patches, or injections. Choose one and get off the pills. Avoid health risks, live longer, be happier, feminize faster. Seems like a win win win win to me.
Sadly it's not all positive. I don't know about creams (not sure they're being sold here), but I do know that the transdermic gel, on top of being very expensive and not covered by insurance, was not made in doses high enough for trans women, and would almost require me to cover my whole body with it to be equivalent to a standard pill dose. Also, some (me included) are concerned about the effects of the more extreme high-low hormone level spikes from injections.
Quote from: Jennygirl on May 29, 2013, 04:19:14 PM
I'm not sure, I was always under the impression that the endocrinologist does it. I'm getting estrogen + progesterone pellets with a progesterone booster injection and it's all done by my endo.
I'm jealous. My own endo won't even see me every 3 months, which should be the minimum in the first months/year of HRT, and give me a decend dose. I wonder if this is common or if it's mostly patients who do it themselves. Ew, I hate needles enough when someone else does it; I surely wouldn't want to inject something into myself! (Any eventual risk of injectable drugs: eliminated.)
It seems like most endos and prescribers don't think progesterone is needed or does anything. But there is enough circumstantial evidence to think that it does at the very least help with breast growth and a general feminization. It's also an anti-androgen so that can only be good for trans women. But then again all the talk about breast cancer is certainly scary.
A- it's definitely true what you say about the up/down spikes of injections. Still, they are a step above pills physical health wise. But yes, mentally, ymmv. There could be some drastic roller coaster type of effects from why I understand.
And the only reason I've seen my endo so much is because he administers all of my hormones. Not once have I given myself a shot, taken a pill, or applied anything daily. I do like that a lot. I am just living my life with no daily regimen requirement. Also I still haven't had my levels checked- I will at 7 months.
However when the creams become available I am going to be switching to those.
Quote from: Jennygirl on May 29, 2013, 11:50:17 PM
A- it's definitely true what you say about the up/down spikes of injections. Still, they are a step above pills physical health wise. But yes, mentally, ymmv. There could be some drastic roller coaster type of effects from why I understand.
And the only reason I've seen my endo so much is because he administers all of my hormones. Not once have I given myself a shot, taken a pill, or applied anything daily. I do like that a lot. I am just living my life with no daily regimen requirement. Also I still haven't had my levels checked- I will at 7 months.
However when the creams become available I am going to be switching to those.
I wonder how injections compare to sublingually taken pills. Also, yeah, I'd like that as well. Being reminded every morning and evening by pills that I don't naturally produce normal (or, rather, appropriate) hormones isn't killing me, but it's definitely not having a positive impact on my mood.
Ideally I'd really like to have these implants that they change yearly and not worry about it... but it depends what kind of implant it is. In the video about a transsexual child I saw a few weeks ago, the implant looked like it was put just under the skin, under the arm, leaving a pretty gross protrusion. x_x
Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 29, 2013, 10:42:18 PM
It seems like most endos and prescribers don't think progesterone is needed or does anything. But there is enough circumstantial evidence to think that it does at the very least help with breast growth and a general feminization. It's also an anti-androgen so that can only be good for trans women. But then again all the talk about breast cancer is certainly scary.
Eh, I don't know about feminization, breasts or breast cancer, but where did you hear that progesterone was an antiandrogen? The antiandrogen I take, cyproterone, just so happens to be a progestIN, but as far as I know, progesterone has some androgenic effects.
Edit: Oh yeah, and I took a look at that document from the endocrine society. I only read the summary, because I read slowly and don't have two hours to spend on the document, but it seems mostly okay, except for a few things:
-The use of very precise numbers that many professionals might interpret wrongly as strict requirements, such as precisely 16 years old for HRT, precisely one year of life in the new gender for SRS and precisely 18 years old for SRS. That's problematic IMO, because as much as it's a problem to leave it entirely to the professionals and/or trans person's judgement(s), every case and person are different, and how much one can be ready and judge the risks and benefits of a procedure doesn't appear magically after a set period.
-In contrast with the above, they sure put a lot of power in the professionals' hands. They need to approve every medical decision, and it's absolutely up to them whether they judge a patient ready for HRT/SRS. Not to mention a very large number of doctors majorly underestimate the risks and disadvantages of the absence of treatment and put the accent on the risks of treatment. Some would never allow HRT if there were the slightest increased risk of clotting, for example, totally disregarding that without HRT, their patient might, say, kill themself.
-They say to wait until Tanner stage 2-3 before giving BLOCKERS, for heaven's sake! HRT that young is probably indeed a bad idea, but seriously, waiting until the patient is well into puberty to just accept to stop the damage is plain cruel. By tanner stage 3, damage is already there, and might in some case already require surgery (for example, breasts in FTMs). I see no justfication for waiting this long before giving a treatment that has very few downsides or risks apart from its price.
I think some people on this thread are not even reading what other's post. The WHI study is worthless unless you are taking premarin and synthetic progestins ( like MPA/Provera)! REAL progesterone is NOT comparable. BTW, I use E and micronized bioidentical progesterone and the cost for both is only $100 a month for a lot higher dose than I was taking before.
BTW, bioidentical means it is the IDENTICAL chemical structure to the one produced in the human body.
Everyone reacts differently to all medications so take it slow and see how you react. I added Progesterone after being on HRT for 3 years and noticed a difference in about 6 months. I would suggest cycling off your Estrogen for a week to 10 days of the month and take the Progesterone only during those 7 to 10 days.
Wish you the best.
Be Bold, Be Proud, Be Yourself.
Chris Tina Bruce
Removed link.
+1 yes to what both Jessica H and Chris Tina Bruce has said.
Ew, that must feel weird. If I just forget one of my two daily estrogen pills at night, I feel like i'm sick in the morning. And I'm on a small dose. Don't even want to try removign it for over a week.
Quote from: A on May 30, 2013, 12:49:07 PM
Ew, that must feel weird. If I just forget one of my two daily estrogen pills at night, I feel like i'm sick in the morning. And I'm on a small dose. Don't even want to try removign it for over a week.
Genetic females produce estrogen during the first half of the month, it drops way low and then the progesterone comes on hard through the second half along with a little prolactin. One month period to period is a cycle. You'd think that anyone mimicking a normal female cycle would have similar results in their attempts at feminizing. This is my approach and it seems to have been working just fine, even better once I got off of the pill forms and went to topical applications only.
.
Quote from: iiii on May 30, 2013, 05:01:22 PM
Though, androcur suppresses your bodys natural E production, so wouldn't you end up with ridiculously low E levels and too high T levels (without E your T will end up higher)?
I don't know anything about androcur or how it works, never used it and don't know what this has to do with anything I said.
I heard cycling progesterone is kinda pointless since we are not genetic females. I also heard it doesn't help with redistributing fat and makes you put on muscle instead.
Quote from: iiii on May 30, 2013, 05:01:22 PM
Though, androcur suppresses your bodys natural E production, so wouldn't you end up with ridiculously low E levels and too high T levels (without E your T will end up higher)?
While on Androcur, my E levels were fine. I had to stop taking it for 2 reasons: 1) It caused me to have depression. 2) It completely tanked my T level.
It's effects on E are only during production, so taking Androcur and E at the same time won't effect the E you take.
If after reading the paper in the link below
http://www.changelingaspects.com/PDF/The%20Lowdown%20on%20Progesterone.pdf (http://www.changelingaspects.com/PDF/The%20Lowdown%20on%20Progesterone.pdf)
You still insist in taking progesterone ( Levenorgestrel, Norethisterone, Mexdroxyprogesterone Acetate, Dydrogesterone, etc) well then you will deserve what ever you get out of it....do not say: "nobody told me"
Quote from: peky on May 30, 2013, 06:42:43 PM
If after reading the paper in the link below
http://www.changelingaspects.com/PDF/The%20Lowdown%20on%20Progesterone.pdf (http://www.changelingaspects.com/PDF/The%20Lowdown%20on%20Progesterone.pdf)
You still insist in taking progesterone ( Levenorgestrel, Norethisterone, Mexdroxyprogesterone Acetate, Dydrogesterone, etc) well then you will deserve what ever you get out of it....do not say: "nobody told me"
"Just eat more pies!" ;D
.
Quote from: PoisonEnvy on May 30, 2013, 06:10:44 PM
I heard cycling progesterone is kinda pointless since we are not genetic females. I also heard it doesn't help with redistributing fat and makes you put on muscle instead.
Well I've been getting progesterone the entire time I've been on HRT.. My muscle mass has plummeted and fat is redistributing extremely well for not even 6 months.
Quote from: peky on May 30, 2013, 06:42:43 PM
If after reading the paper in the link below
http://www.changelingaspects.com/PDF/The%20Lowdown%20on%20Progesterone.pdf (http://www.changelingaspects.com/PDF/The%20Lowdown%20on%20Progesterone.pdf)
You still insist in taking progesterone ( Levenorgestrel, Norethisterone, Mexdroxyprogesterone Acetate, Dydrogesterone, etc) well then you will deserve what ever you get out of it....do not say: "nobody told me"
There are significant problems with the Curtis paper you cite.
Dr. Curtis is a general practitioner, and not an endocrinologist; consequently, his findings are suspect. The following article, cites 20 of Dr. Curtis's findings and questions their validity.
I would urge every MtF member who is on HRT to review this article, by Dana J. Beven, PhD, especially the discussion of Dr. Curtis's work.
Should Male-to-Female Transsexuals Take Progesterone as part of Hormone Replacement Therapy for Better Breast Development? (http://biopsychologytstg.cniib.com/Biopsychology_TSTG/?p=83)
I really hate that some people get so emotionally invested in their assertions. I don't care what anyone else takes with their HRT and the only thing I'm invested in is FACTS. The sad thing is, the medical community doesn't care enough about doing real research on trans HRT because no one is going to dump a bunch of money into this for us.
I do know, that studies based on conjugated estrogens (premarin) and synthetic progestins like MPA (provera) are NOT of any value to me because I would not consider using either of them. I would REALLY like to see some real scientific studies on the use of pure estrodiol and real human progesterone. Anyone familiar with chemistry knows that the structure of a molecule and changing one bond or molecule can change a chemicals properties in very drastic and toxic ways.
The cellular receptors for hormones can function very differently if the structure of the attaching molecule isn't EXACTLY what it is supposed to be binding to. Molecules from things like environmental estrogenic compounds or weak plant estrogens can bind to the receptor and therefore block out the estrodiol and progesterone that we want. The chemistry can be very complicated and many other chemicals all work together in a feedback process to self regulate the system and prime receptors for the molecule they are designed to receive.
Quote from: Jamie D on May 30, 2013, 08:43:46 PM
There are significant problems with the Curtis paper you cite.
Dr. Curtis is a general practitioner, and not an endocrinologist; consequently, his findings are suspect. The following article, cites 20 of Dr. Curtis's findings and questions their validity.
I would urge every MtF member who is on HRT to review this article, by Dana J. Beven, PhD, especially the discussion of Dr. Curtis's work.
Without wanting to step too deep into the fray, I would like to note though that the article you linked starts off by stating that Dana Beven is not an MD, looking at the "about the author" page, her PhD seems to be in psychology. Given this, adding a prominent "PhD" strikes me as a bit of an attempted argument from authority, in particular while simultaneously using Curtis' experience as a GP instead of an endo against him. :-X
While Curtis may not be an endocrinologist, I would argue that his education per se forced him to have at least a basic understanding of the matter. It should also be noted that a lot of GPs have a specialisation on the side, but I cannot of course say whether or not that is the case here (although his workplace might suggest it), but we cannot exclude the possibility either. It is worthy to note that his article does not seem to have been properly peer-reviewed by the way, so that makes it an "informed opinion" piece in my mind for now.
Methinks that it would make sense to look for proper peer-reviewed studies outside of the trans* area as well. There is the possibility of scenarios where HRT is applied pre-menopausal to natal females, in which the HRT regimen might then be built to mirror the natural hormone levels. :)
I have not finish yet find out who "Dana J. Bevan Ph.D" but so far she has not published a single peer-reviewed paper: transsexualism/GID/->-bleeped-<-, endrocrinology/pharmacology, or hormone replacement therapy.
Nor there is any technical reports by this person in the Defense Technical Information Center.
QuoteI am a biopsychologist and systems engineer who has been involved in research and development for over 35 years. I received my B.A. from Dartmouth College in psychology and my Ph.D. from Princeton University. After finishing my Ph.D., I served on active duty with US Army, conducting pharmacological experiments at Edgewood, MD. After leaving the Army, I participated in several technology development projects for DARPA including development of a Biocybernetics Laboratory, the Assault Breaker technology demonstration that involved smart weapons and advanced radars to provide a non-nuclear antitank alternative. I also participated in the DARPA Discoverer II study which returned DARPA to space. I led the evaluation of the TR-1 sensor suite for the USAF and participated in a program to upgrade the B2 bomber sensor suite. Most recently, with Jamie Hyneman of "Mythbusters", I developed a prototype anthropomorphic "dummy" to train first responders how to deal with injuries from explosions which has now in production.
BTW "Assault Breaker" was a DARPA-initiated program under Dr. W. Perry to demonstrate the feasibility to use an air-born radar to guide munitions to multiple targets. The program run from 78 to 82, and successfully transitioned into a program of record. Part of "Assault Breaker" was the development incorporate a "High altitude Synthetic Aperture Radar," TR-1, under the lead of the Air Force. TR1- was to be a replacement to the U-2 "looking down" radar.
As you see nothing to "boost" her claims to know anything about hormones, endocrinology, or the treatment of GID folks
Endocrinol Nutr. 2013 May;60(5):264-7. doi: 10.1016/j.endonu.2012.07.004. Epub 2012 Sep 27.
Symptomatic meningioma induced by cross-sex hormone treatment in a male-to-female transsexual.
[Article in English, Spanish]
Bergoglio MT, Gómez-Balaguer M, Almonacid Folch E, Hurtado Murillo F, Hernández-Mijares A.
Source
Department of Endocrinology, Doctor Peset University Hospital, Valencia, Spain. Electronic address: drabergoglio@gmail.com.
Abstract
Transsexualism is defined as a strong conviction of belonging to the opposite sex in individuals without any physical intersex condition. Cross-sex hormone therapy is an important component of medical treatment of transexuals but it is not exempt from adverse effects. We report a case of a meningioma in a male-to-female transsexual patient treated with estrogens and cyproterone acetate for the past 4years. He claimed recently severe headache and visual impairment. Blood tests showed normal results. A contrast-enhanced magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan revealed a mass in the tuberculum sellae consistent with a meningioma. Treatment was discontinued and tumor resection was performed. Histologic diagnosis confirmed strongly progesterone receptor-positive and estrogen negative meningioma. After surgery, the patient rejected the possibility of continuing with the treatment of estrogens and cyproterone, and so triptorelin (GnRH agonist) was initiated. At 1-year follow-up the patient's symptoms had ameliorated and a MRI scan revealed no recurrence of the tumor. This is the third case reported in the literature of a meningioma after treatment with estrogens and cyproterone acetate. We consider extremely important a long-term follow-up observation of male-to-female transsexual undergoing cross-sex hormone therapy in order to detect as soon as possible the adverse effects that can be derived from this therapy.
Copyright © 2012 SEEN. Published by Elsevier Espana. All rights reserved.
This may seem like a departure from the subject but it is actually relevant to the conversation here. I know and individual who set out to write a book about a subject that he had absolutely no personal experience with and very little personal knowledge of. His entire book was based on information he had extrapolated from the experience of others and he related it to his readers as if it was in fact something he had done and experienced in his own life. A certain segment of society bought his book and he wrote a couple of follow-ups and was soon appearing on television shows as the guest speaker and was traveling all over the country for speaking engagements. The sole reason for it was that he had been the author of a book which had suddenly elevated him to the esteemed position of being an authority. The reason I know of this is because one of my very own experiences that I had personally shared with him years earlier was written in as if it had been something he himself had experienced.
With the dawn of the Internet came a huge influx of ->-bleeped-<-, not that it wasn't there all along, but the information superhighway made transition suddenly become a feasible possibility for many with GID issues. Along with that came the MD's who saw a need and an opportunity. Most have no idea of what they are doing other then to stick with the tried and true safe approach which has always been an HRT regimen prescribed for menopausal women who have long since passed puberty and the feminizing phase of their physical development. A few MD's have authored articles about feminizing HRT for trans women which does not depart from the menopausal women's HRT regimen, being authors makes them an authority and therefore most MD's follow their guidelines as well.
Quote from: peky on May 31, 2013, 09:08:07 AM
Treatment was discontinued and tumor resection was performed. Histologic diagnosis confirmed strongly progesterone receptor-positive and estrogen negative meningioma.
To be honest, that is neither an argument for nor against progesterone. Hormone sensitive tumours are, alas, not really a rare occurrence. It is one of the big issues with post-menopausal HRT in natal women, as a lot of breast cancer variants are oestrogen receptor-positive. Makes for an "easy" aftercare, as Tamoxifen or Arimidex can be used to ensure that any remaining tumour cells are starved, but the "easy" part only applies to the doctors -- one heck of an uncomfortable time for the women in question.
Quote from: kkut on May 31, 2013, 09:22:25 AM
But she does appear to be a doctor though... I see the Ph.D after her name.
BTW Peky, I've checked to see if you've written any papers on internet searches of doctors and papers on their relevance of being relevant. I found none! What say you?
Now, you did not really thing that my last name is really "peky," did you?
Psychology like most psychiatry are not based in any scientifically-sound theory. Yet, they are an important art and great tool for the healing of the mind and soul.
Yes, she claims to have a Ph.D. and therefore she can call herself a doctor, and therefore rightfully state her opinions in the art for which she is qualified, psychology. She does not have however any credentials or experience to provide sound medical advice in terms of HRT.
Also, like any individual in the "cyberworld" she is entitled to her opinion, and if you want to follow her advice, well that is your right.
BTW, as I pointed before, Dr. Bevan has not publish any peer-reviewed papers in psychology, books, nor she has any appointments at any research or educational organizations. All she has is her internet blogs.
As far as me, my dear lady, I express my opinions and present the facts as I see it and found them -take or live dahrling, it is a freebee
I have no need to post all my degree and accolade in the internet, and more important, I have nothing to prove to you or anybody.
Okay... Incoming wall of text, sorry. Colour me as having a way too enquiring mind when it comes to stuff like this... ;)
Going through a couple of corresponding databases, I found three relatively recent articles that might be deemed interesting in this context:
- Spark, J.M. & Willis, J. (2012) 'Systematic review of progesterone use by midlife and menopausal women', Maturitas, 72(3), pp. 192-202. DOI: /10.1016/j.maturitas.2012.03.015
- Simon, J.A. (2012) 'What's new in hormone replacement therapy: focus on transdermal estradiol and micronized progesterone', Climacteric, 15(Suppl 1), pp.3-10.
- Mueck, A.O. (2012) 'Postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy and cardiovascular disease: the value of transdermal estradiol and micronized progesterone', Climacteric, 15(Suppl 1), pp.11-17.
(seems Climacteric had a special focus in that supplement)So what is pertinent? First of all there are these two snippets:
- "Unlike some progestogens, progesterone is also not associated with an increased risk for VTE, or with an increased risk of breast cancer." (Simon, 2012, p.3)
[Note: VTE stands for venous thromboembolism] - "[...] unlike some progestogens, the addition of micronized progesterone does not increase VTE risk." (Mueck, 2012, p.15).
[Note: Mueck here actually references four further studies that focus on this issue, which I have included at the very bottom for people who are interested]
What does this tell us? Nothing much at first, but when digging into the documents a bit more, we find that one of the issues that both authors raise is that the main source of knowledge in this area, namely the Women's Health Initiative (WHI) study from 2002, has some issues that need addressing in light of modern day findings. One of these is the fact that it only took into account other progestogens, but not progesterone. Amongst other things, newer research has led to the following recommendation by the International Menopause Society:
- "In general, progestogen should be added to systemic estrogen for all women with a uterus to prevent endometrial hyperplasia and cancer. However, natural progesterone and some progestogens have specific beneficial effects that could justify their use besides the expected actions on the endometrium [...] Also, progestogens may not be alike in regard to potential adverse metabolic effects or associated breast cancer risk when combined with long-term estrogen therapy"
(Quoted in Simon, 2012, p.5: Sturdee DW, Pines A; International Menopause Society Writing Group. Updated IMS recommendations on postmenopausal hormone therapy and preventive strategies for midlife health. Climacteric 2011;14:302-20)So it seems that modern research indicates that natural progesterone does not have the same adverse effects that were associated with the progestogens that used to be prescribed previously. In many ways this is good news for the pro-progesterone faction.
Spark and Willis (2012, p.193) seemingly are heading that way too, and state that:
- "The first large scale hormone therapy trial, the Postmenopausal Estrogen/Progestin Interventions (PEPI) trial, contained a P4 and conjugated equine estrogen (CEE) arm. This trial was one of the first to show that P4 did not have the same properties as the progestin medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA) and could be a useful adjunct to estrogen therapy."
[Note: P4 refers to progesterone in terms of the natural hormone]
Enough of the rosiness though, as Spark and Willis (2012) also found that in their systematic review of 13 studies on progesterone use, most studies were of low methodological quality, and while the results where promising, clearly warned that:
- "Large studies designed to identify confounders, such as hormone levels, menopausal status and metabolism are required to understand the place of progesterone in clinical practice." (Spark and Willis, 2012, p.192).
Where does this leave us? Basically it would seem that progesterone isn't quite as bad as its reputation. While the current research looks promising, there is as yet insufficient evidence to simply green-light it though, as a large scale study is still required (preferably randomised, double-blind, and placebo-controlled). At this stage there is no clear evidence either way, but recent studies show a leaning toward it being beneficial.
Conclusion? Seeing as all of us are, in some ways, already involved in what might be deemed a slightly risky activity, at this stage the use of progesterone strikes me as a personal decision that is based on an individual's own risk assessment (hopefully in conjunction with their endocrinologist of course). Mueck's references:
- Anderson GL, Limacher M, Assaf AR, et al. Effects of conjugated equine estrogen in postmenopausal women with hysterectomy: the Women's Health Initiative randomized controlled trial. JAMA 2004;291:1701-12
- Canonico M, Fournier A, Carcaillon L, et al. Postmenopausal hormone therapy and risk of idiopathic venous thromboembolism: results from the E3N cohort study. Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol 2010;30:340-5
- Oli é V, Plu-Bureau G, Conard J, Horellou MH, Canonico M, Scarabin PY. Hormone therapy and recurrence of venous thromboembolism among postmenopausal women. Menopause 2011;18:488-93
- Canonico M, Oger E, Plu-Bureau G, et al. Hormone therapy and venous thromboembolism among postmenopausal women: impact of the route of estrogen administration and progestogens: the ESTHER study. Circulation 2007;115:840-5
I find that most if not all of that information concerning menopausal woman and post menopausal women doesn't apply to me. Yes people get thrombosis, heart problems, tumors and everything else under the sun and I could get run over by a Mack truck on my way to the mailbox. I am not a genetic woman, surprise, surprise! I don't have their internal sexual organs. I am post male and am going to be seventy in a couple of months and have been going through a secondary puberty developing secondary female characteristics that are evident in my avatar photo with the aid of a very effective topical progesterone oil. Estrogen alone gave me road cones for a number of years, when I started using progesterone things began to fill out. If that is of no interest to anyone then that's fine by me. So far I don't have any lumps or fibroids, just some nice titties with big nipples and aureolas that I am quite happy with.
Quote from: kkut on May 31, 2013, 10:46:44 AM
Well, I don't know who you are? Which is sort of my point.
Interested? Want to meet Honey? over a cup of coffee, tea, wine?
Progesterone is great!
I agree Shantel.
Topical creams are the way to go. I still haven't seen a single article posted that specifically administers the hormones with anything other than pills. How the vast majority of endocrinologists (or people leading these studies) haven't discovered that administering hormone pills isn't a red flag in itself is a clear indication of how far behind medical practice is for transgender hormone treatment.
Get with the program, medical science! We weren't meant to EAT such large amounts of any hormone!
Shantel: Indeed, these studies aren't 100% relevant regarding trans women because they are not about trans women, and not even about "adult", fertile-aged women (I know someone past menopause is still very much an adult, but I can't find the term for "not a child and not an elderly person either").
However, let's face it, there's next to nothing regarding trans people, and realistically speaking, this nothingness is going to last. So we do with what we have, which is much better, you'll admit, than guessing! Not to mention individual experience is sadly not usable to prove anything, and varies a lot. It's hard to go saying progesterone has great effects (or doesn't) when on one side there are people saying it had awesome effects on them, on the other some saying it didn't do anything good, and to the other extreme reports of progesterone-related cancers.
peky: Yeah, what Dr Curtis says makes sense, but like pretty much everything I've seen on the subject, it's still mostly deductions. Not that it makes anything he says invalid, but it's annoying because no one ever has real definite proof on either side. D: Well, you'll say I haven't read much, which is true, but not a lot is accessible to me. I'm not familiar enough with sciences and English to be reading those violently smart-worded texts. (Not to mention research is very low on the list of things I like to do.)
Theo: That was a very nice post. First time I see a true attempt to look at both sides seriously.
Jennygirl: The reason they prescribe pills is that other forms of administration are either expensive/misadapted for trans people (transdermal), controversial/not really proven safe (injections) or not yet approved everywhere (implants). I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks pills are inherently superior. Many however might think that an individual is not at enough risk to justify the massive added cost, which isn't stupid. Not to mention that sublingually taking a pill is better, and I've had no one tell me yet how much better it is. Who knows, maybe it's almost as good as other methods, for a fraction of the price.
Been almost a year now on a new protocol, with significant additional progesterone. My NP says my breasts are very healthy, and I have experienced good growth.
Quote from: Theo on May 31, 2013, 05:32:12 AM
Without wanting to step too deep into the fray, I would like to note though that the article you linked starts off by stating that Dana Beven is not an MD, looking at the "about the author" page, her PhD seems to be in psychology. Given this, adding a prominent "PhD" strikes me as a bit of an attempted argument from authority, in particular while simultaneously using Curtis' experience as a GP instead of an endo against him. :-X
While Curtis may not be an endocrinologist, I would argue that his education per se forced him to have at least a basic understanding of the matter. It should also be noted that a lot of GPs have a specialisation on the side, but I cannot of course say whether or not that is the case here (although his workplace might suggest it), but we cannot exclude the possibility either. It is worthy to note that his article does not seem to have been properly peer-reviewed by the way, so that makes it an "informed opinion" piece in my mind for now.
Methinks that it would make sense to look for proper peer-reviewed studies outside of the trans* area as well. There is the possibility of scenarios where HRT is applied pre-menopausal to natal females, in which the HRT regimen might then be built to mirror the natural hormone levels. :)
Dr. Bevan is a practicing biopsychologist. Her credentials are more than satisfactory for the purpose of reviewing the errors and lapses in Dr. Curtis's "analysis." Bevan's critique is labeled as a "science review."
Part of the problem, too, with Curtis can be found here:
Dr Richard Curtis: transsexual doctor faces investigation (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9784545/Dr-Richard-Curtis-transsexual-doctor-faces-investigation.html)
Britain's first transsexual doctor is under investigation following complaints that he provided inappropriate treatment to patients wishing to change gender.
The London-based GP is accused of prescribing sex change hormones "to several patients" that were not appropriate and also ignoring restrictions placed on his practice....
In another case, it was alleged Dr Curtis, 46, prescribed sex change drugs to patients under 18, without the specialist knowledge or skills to do so. "... without the specialist knowledge or skills ...That alone would give me pause.
Quote from: Jamie D on May 31, 2013, 06:50:42 PM
Dr. Bevan is a practicing biopsychologist. Her credentials are more than satisfactory for the purpose of reviewing the errors and lapses in Dr. Curtis's "analysis." Bevan's critique is labeled as a "science review."
Not wanting too much of a contrarian here, but once again, neither of the two documents are peer reviewed, and irrespective of the label they use for them, that in and of itself makes both of them opinion pieces in my book. The studies I linked are published and peer reviewed, and stem from groups that focus on evidence based medicine. Not quite Cochrane level of trust there, but decent. As noted they actually add a bit of weight to arguments
supporting the use of natural progesterone, but as yet there is no fully fledged study to be certain.
As for biopsychology, I would just like to throw in the reminder that the medical branch of the mental sciences is psychiatry, psychology is a subsection of philosophy, and therefore does not include very much medical training. Seeing as my mother also has her PhD in psychology, and a good friend his master, I am somewhat aware of the distinctions and limitations. It is also one of the reasons why I chose a psychiatrist for my therapist: I wanted to be able to discuss medical details with her, not just my mental state (and yes, I am aware that I can discuss my medical details with a psychologist as well, but they are neither allowed to prescribe medicine over here, nor would I feel confident about them doing so). Whatever Dr. Bevan practices, her education does therefore not qualify her to give medical advice, and she herself says so in the first sentence. This is in no way to say that her opinions are invalid, but simply that they have to be taken on their on merit, and not on the basis of her formal education.
One last note: while some of the content in the article implies that Dr. Curtis' ethical compass might indeed be a bit off, the reference to "without the specialised knowledge or skills" is associated with patients under 18, meaning he has no formal paediatric training; i.e. not that he is not qualified to work with transsexuals, but that he is not qualified to work with adolescents. This is not to say that his record with transsexuals is in any way good, but the critique of his knowledge is focussed on a different area.
Thank you for your comment. Dr Bevan has just published a book. Here is the comment from Amazon.com:
Have you ever wondered what the experience of transsexualism or ->-bleeped-<- (TSTG) is like or what causes these phenomena?
This book provides answers to these questions by creating a new genre of literature that incorporates both autobiography and understandable science. The autobiographical information is based on self-observations of a Ph.D. psychologist and extends for over fifty years from her discovery at age 4 that she was a transsexual. The scientific analysis is organized to parallel the autobiographical story. This book is intended for those with personal or professional interest in TSTG or those interested in a tale of self-discovery.
As a scientist, the author has spent 7 years critically reviewing over 2700 scientific articles and has found over 60 proposed causes of TSTG. Like a detective story, most of these candidate "suspects" can be eliminated by analyzing the available scientific evidence. These include many of the most commonly believed causal factors, including lifestyle choice, sexual fetish, prenatal hormone levels, mental disorder, and a "gender center" in the brain. Her analysis reveals two likely causal factors that can work together or separately to produce TSTG. Dr Bevan earn her B.A. at Dartmouth, and her PhD at Princeton. Information on her book,
The Transsexual Scientist: The Causation and Experience of Transsexualism and ->-bleeped-<- can be found at Amazon and elsewhere. She is currently transitioning.
Quote from: peky on May 31, 2013, 09:01:34 AM
I have not finish yet find out who "Dana J. Bevan Ph.D" but so far she has not published a single peer-reviewed paper: transsexualism/GID/->-bleeped-<-, endrocrinology/pharmacology, or hormone replacement therapy.
Nor there is any technical reports by this person in the Defense Technical Information Center.
I think her C.V. might very well be found under her old male name.
With regard to Richard Curtis, General Practitioner, we will have to see what the investigation turns up, if anything. To be fair, Dr. Curtis's be can be found
HERE (http://www.transhealth.co.uk/dr_curtis.php)
Quote from: peky on May 30, 2013, 06:42:43 PM
If after reading the paper in the link below
http://www.changelingaspects.com/PDF/The%20Lowdown%20on%20Progesterone.pdf (http://www.changelingaspects.com/PDF/The%20Lowdown%20on%20Progesterone.pdf)
You still insist in taking progesterone ( Levenorgestrel, Norethisterone, Mexdroxyprogesterone Acetate, Dydrogesterone, etc) well then you will deserve what ever you get out of it....do not say: "nobody told me"
I understand your concern for others but I think that is a very rude thing to say. I am prescribed hormones by one of the best doctors in central Florida, referred to by one of the best gender therapists in central Florida. She is extremely compassionate, openly working with both MtF and FtM. I am going to listen to her guidance because she has handled the HRT regiments of probably 100+ patients.
So, I appreciate your genuine concern but please 1) don't make me or others feel like total morons for listening to our doctors and 2) don't tell us we deserve to have something negative happen because you don't agree with it. There are more constructive ways to make your point.
Quote from: Jamie D on May 31, 2013, 06:50:42 PM
Dr. Bevan is a practicing biopsychologist. Her credentials are more than satisfactory for the purpose of reviewing the errors and lapses in Dr. Curtis's "analysis." Bevan's critique is labeled as a "science review."
Part of the problem, too, with Curtis can be found here:
Dr Richard Curtis: transsexual doctor faces investigation (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9784545/Dr-Richard-Curtis-transsexual-doctor-faces-investigation.html)
Britain's first transsexual doctor is under investigation following complaints that he provided inappropriate treatment to patients wishing to change gender.
The London-based GP is accused of prescribing sex change hormones "to several patients" that were not appropriate and also ignoring restrictions placed on his practice....
In another case, it was alleged Dr Curtis, 46, prescribed sex change drugs to patients under 18, without the specialist knowledge or skills to do so.
"... without the specialist knowledge or skills ...
That alone would give me pause.
Well dear...you may be right on this one, however I will hold that "pause" until the outcome of the investigation is completed
Quote from: Michelle S. on June 01, 2013, 04:50:22 PM
I understand your concern for others but I think that is a very rude thing to say. I am prescribed hormones by one of the best doctors in central Florida, referred to by one of the best gender therapists in central Florida. She is extremely compassionate, openly working with both MtF and FtM. I am going to listen to her guidance because she has handled the HRT regiments of probably 100+ patients.
So, I appreciate your genuine concern but please 1) don't make me or others feel like total morons for listening to our doctors and 2) don't tell us we deserve to have something negative happen because you don't agree with it. There are more constructive ways to make your point.
You and the rest of people in this forum read my posts -which are opinions NOT MEDICAL ADVICE- and take and live what ever you want.
Do not let me or anybody else "make you feel" one way of another by what I say...come on!
Quote from: peky on June 01, 2013, 05:17:21 PM
Well dear...you may be right on this one, however I will hold that "pause" until the outcome of the investigation is completed
C'mon Pecky dear, game over Jamie D held the trump! Sheesh you can be such a pit bull at times hon, but we love your enthusiasm just the same!
So much spice in this thread! Let's get some glasses of milk here :o :o
Peky- I feel the same way as you when it comes to taking anything orally (e and/or p), but I keep my mouth shut about it for the most part because essentially people are going to do what they want and it is their choice. Suggestions are where it ends, here, unfortunately. If you want to really change peoples opinions to match your own, it takes tact and flawless presentation.
Maybe someday when more definitive research for transgender hormone therapy has been completed, our desires to spread our own realizations will be a lot easier. Maybe it won't even be necessary because then hopefully endocrinology will have changed as a whole.
Look, if you were having this conversation in person, I will still present my views and opinions as I see them...no offense intended...and yes, we can agree to disagree and still be civilized
I think that Theo post should have closed the discussion. Theo showed how the data does not support either point. I will remain guarded against using progesterone until more studies have been conducted. Now, that is just me...you my dear ladies do what you thinks is best for you, and by all means do follow the advice of your physicians.
One more point to consider is that like almost all fields in medicine, endocrinology is by no means without internal controversies between diametrically opposed schools-of-thoughts. So for good or bad all this medical societies promulgate "standards of care" and "treatment opinions."
Having said that the purpose of our threads are to share information and show solidarity and support to each other. I have no vested interests or ego involvement in 'winning" and argument if I am wrong.
QuoteProgesterone
The use of progesterone in male to female transsexuals is controversial. There has not been a clear feminizing benefit shown with the use of progesterone, although some individuals and some clinicians feel it has been a useful adjunctive medication. It is used by some clinicians for clients experiencing decreased libido Progesterone has a suppressive effect on LH, thus decreasing androgen production.
The common side effects associated with progesterone are weight gain, depression, and edema. Serious long term outcomes with combined estrogen and progesterone have been examined in post-menopausal women by the Women's Health Initiative; the 2007 updates support the original findings, which were increased incidence of breast cancer, increased strokes and blood clots, and increased heart disease. These same outcomes were not found to the same extent with estrogen alone. If used, the usual dose of progesterone would be micronized progesterone 100-400mg daily; or medroxyprogesterone acetate 5 – 30mg daily.
http://www.sherbourne.on.ca/PDFs/Trans-Protocols.pdf (http://www.sherbourne.on.ca/PDFs/Trans-Protocols.pdf)
This entire thread has been definitely something to consider since I am thinking of talking to my doctor about a progesterone cream to boost results.
But a few of you have made me nervous about it :D
Ill just speak with my doctor next time and see what she says about the matter.
Let me address you first comment.
5 months HRT is almost nothing because you are meant to be low dosed for 8 months to let your body adjust before they give you decent dosages. The fact you see almost nothing at 5 months is uite normal and throwing in more hormones at this point could prove unhealthy so yes one day give proE a try but becareful rushing into higher dosages of HRT so early highers the risks of things like breast cancer.
On the note of proE its unproven by generally accepted to help, but never ever use the artifical version. I mean never, the risks are just not worth it. If you are going to use it rather spend the extra cash and get the real stuff.
Uhm, who told you about eight months? I've always been convinced that hormone levels adjusted themselves within 3 months maximum.
Quote from: A on September 01, 2013, 10:11:50 AM
Uhm, who told you about eight months? I've always been convinced that hormone levels adjusted themselves within 3 months maximum.
Sorry thats my hospitals code I assummed was the same for other places.
Hmm. Interesting.
Well, having read over everything I don't feel so down now my endo won't prescribe me progesterone....guess he is on the opposing team of its use :) Either way is love it but hey, follow our endos advice right? Only reason I don't go get it from the health food store. N ya it works, I used it when I was 23- just without e or a t blocker, I just got gynomasticia from it so stopped. Mind u I was 23- I'm 30 now been on hrt for the below time in my signature. Prior to the, it's been since I was 23. Course in those days self medication was what I felt was my only option. Still, progesterone was good :) I won't say the other self meds I did then as I'm not a self meddling advocate. If I can personally fund my transition under medical supervision, out of pocket off 8/hr, anyone can :) Granted my fiancee is a hell of a partner...but I cover DTE and gas for us so ya. But still. It's do able. A lil off topic but I feel it was needed to say as my experience solely on progesterone was self medicating but ya. We all know why self medding is bad.
I'm curious. Why did you take progesterone in the first place if the appearance of breasts made you stop? That sounds a little contradictory.
I take progesterone. I love it. it's great. My body is much more femme in one month. And it's not my imagination cause I have brand new stretch marks on my hips and on my boobs. My thighs look bigger too but I have so many stretch marks there already that it would be impossible to tell. Granted, I have also been on HRT for six months so maybe they just started working better and it is just a coincidence. I haven't noticed any unusual emotions. Just the usual ones.
Question, are you taking it in a cycle or something like that, or just all at the same time?
Quote from: A on September 01, 2013, 11:50:12 PM
Question, are you taking it in a cycle or something like that, or just all at the same time?
I take it everyday.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on September 02, 2013, 12:19:26 AM
I take it everyday.
out of curiosity are you taking medroxyprogesterone? I wonder this because after a brief read I feel the consensus is its a bad thing to be taking and I just recently was re-prescribed this and am curious about the benefits outweighing the negative's
this all makes me scared, what about prometrium? I see its bio-identical, so I figured I could suggest that as the alternative.
A bit of back-story: I was started on oral estrogen at 17, had SRS at 24, and continued on oral estrogen until my mid 40s when my GP felt the risk of long-term estrogen therapy was too high. After about 15 years, I became concerned and asked for a referral to a knowledgeable endocrinologist. The endocrinologist is one of the most experienced and knowledgeable in this part of the country and she was immediately shocked that I had been without HRT for over 10 years. As she suspected, I had some bone density loss from lack of primary hormones and she started me on transdermal estrogen immediately. She said that oral estrogens simply don't provide blood serum estrogen levels in the normal female range. She said the patch is more effective and is not processed by the liver which also makes it safer. With hormone levels in the normal range and with regular exercise, I beat the osteoporosis. I asked how long I should stay on the patch and she said that when I stop, the osteoporosis WILL come back but the dangers of continuing HRT long-term are statistically small. I feel better and look younger than I have in decades so I will take my chances with statistics!
A couple of years ago I decided I wanted to lactate - one of the aspects of womanhood that I had never experienced but was still possible. Knowing I had never been exposed to progesterone and therefore lacked the "maturity" of the milk-making apparatus, I discussed taking progesterone with my endocrinologist but she said I didn't "need" it because I didn't have a uterus (which I DO, but that's beside the point LOL!) but I decided to continue on my own and take a six month course of high level progesterone (Microgest) to simulate pregnancy (while being monitored by my endocrinologist).
I got more than I bargained for! Within 4 months I was experiencing just about every symptom of pregnancy that it is possible to experience without a fetus present! Unfortunately the depression got pretty bad (one of the known side-effects of progesterone), bad enough that I discontinued the Microgest.
A month or so later a partner came into my life who was interested in an ANR ("adult nursing relationship") so I started progesterone again for a month, then discontinued it while taking domperidone and herbs to stimulate lactation. My endocrinologist indicated that my prolactin levels were high, almost as high as a nursing mother, and within a couple of weeks I was producing milk. Unfortunately the relationship crashed and burned a couple of months later and I discontinued all medications (except the patch).
Anyway, significant changes occurred while I was taking Microgest.
1 - My breast size increased nearly 2 cup sizes
2 - My aerola and nipples increased in size and the aerola became darker
3 - The texture of my breasts changed. I can feel the lobules (where milk is produced) and still can after many months
4 - My natural background level of moisture (in the genitalia) increased as well as the lubrication produced when aroused.
5 - My breasts are more dense, firm, and heavier than before
Considering all the positive side-effects I advised my endocrinologist that I intend to stay on cyclic progesterone for the foreseeable future. It may not be "necessary" but, for me, it was very beneficial.
I am taking Duphastone and I can attest that it does affect the breast growth and more specifically alveola. If I understand this correctly, it is not a medroxyprogesterone derivative.
Quote from: Northern Jane on September 02, 2013, 07:04:11 AM
A bit of back-story: .....
This was an interesting read, and I'm sorry about the relationship falling apart.
But, I'm an elderly woman who's always wanted to lactate and I'm considering talking to my doctor about progesterone. I began massage and manipulation a couple weeks ago but there really is absolutely no change and it seems futile without adding Progesterone. This was discussed a bit with another girl and I've just been dragging my feet. :-\
Anyway, how long does it usually take to see results?
As with any medication one needs to be aware of potential side effects. Domperidone is known to be problematic if you have even the slightest heart abnormality and has cause a slight heart problem to become much worse and more dangerous. I know this from personal family experience as well as from information I received from a trans woman friend. Domperidone is used frequently to increase the milk supply in nursing mothers but is not approved for use generally in the US and Canada because of the potential risks. My family member had a slight heart electrical abnormality where one small part wasn't getting normal signals from the brain. It wasn't anything to worry about until she started using Domperidone which brought her close to a heart attack. Most women can lactate following a course of reduced estrogen and increased progesterone levels followed by some serious time on a double electric breast pump something like eight 15 minute sessions per day for up to a month without using Domperidone or Motillum. Breasts normally produce milk as a direct result of demand, it increases as demand increases.
Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 02:27:26 AM
it will make your breasts grow more but you're taking the chances that the tissue growing there might be cancer just as well as any other tissue you don't want there.
Those studies were on cis females. If provera was as bad as evryone says why aren't all the transsexuals from the 1980s and 1990s, when provera was the AA of choice, dead. There hasn't been one study suggesting provera did anything other then make their breast bigger and their hips wider. yeah if you can afford it take prometirum. Though provera will kill T levels much more efficiently. But calico doesn't have to way about that. However, I don't think provera is as bad as some make it sound. I am unconvinced. Just because people say it doesn't make it true. And the fact that there aren't a rash of lawsuits from trans women from the 1980s who are all dying from Provera makes me think it is probably okay to take. I wouldn't worry calico.
Quote from: kathyk on September 02, 2013, 07:52:54 AMAnyway, how long does it usually take to see results?
It depends on WHAT results and your own genetics.
If you mean breast changes, I noticed the changes starting about the second month and by the 4th the remaining changes were very slow.
If you are talking about lactating, that is WILDLY variable. There are cis women I know (online) who try for a year or more with no results and others who have milk in 2 weeks. There are only a couple of Trans women I know who have done it and it seems to take them 6 months or so and they don't always get it on the first attempt. (The 'progesterone pregnancy' idea I got from a TG woman who is lactating.)
Quote from: A on September 01, 2013, 11:08:02 PM
I'm curious. Why did you take progesterone in the first place if the appearance of breasts made you stop? That sounds a little contradictory.
Two reasons: 1. It was my first dabble into hrt, I was 23, self medicating, and had no idea if I was on the right dosage or not due to 24/7 cramping. It was also dangerous all around due to self medicating, and was one of my main contributing factors to stopping. (I've had slight breasts since I turned 11- I'm IS, and wanted to be more passable. My research at the time, told me to stop as there was no proper E in my regimen either, so it was prolly doing more harm then good.) Simple increase in breast growth was not enough to justify all that. And,
2. I was told by some trans girls at the time I'd never pass, and being young, and with all the high emotions dysphoria brings, I was discouraged and stopped.
And my end goal in all of this isn't simple breast growth. :)
Northern Jane's story is riveting. Got me thinking. I think at the end of the day, I'd much rather have the attractive womanly breasts of a woman who has borne children, then girly immature breasts. I know most people think a lot of the latter, but to me it's always been overrated.
Will be thinking and researching this further, as well as discussing this with my physician at the 6-week HRT checkup.
Thanks for such a wonderful thread !
My endo is prescribing progesterone pellets now, which are bioidentical and not synthetic. Got loaded up with 12 E pellets and 1 low dose P pellet. Cheers to progesterone!
Quote from: Jennygirl on September 09, 2013, 07:18:26 PM
My endo is prescribing progesterone pellets now, which are bioidentical and not synthetic. Got loaded up with 12 E pellets and 1 low dose P pellet. Cheers to progesterone!
Works for me Boo-Boo!
How much did the pellets cost? (Or how much would they have cost if they weren't covered?) I'm curious about the price of these things. I know they're "expensive", but nothing further than that.
Also, how often do you need to have them replaced?
Quote from: A on September 09, 2013, 07:27:17 PM
How much did the pellets cost? (Or how much would they have cost if they weren't covered?) I'm curious about the price of these things. I know they're "expensive", but nothing further than that.
Also, how often do you need to have them replaced?
Usually it's about $50-75 per pellet, and they last 3-4 months- I'm pretty sure depending mostly on height/weight. I understand it as: the more fat you have in your bum the longer it takes for them to dissolve and need replacing. Perhaps someone could correct me if I'm wrong!
Pellets are the jammm please get on them! ;) It's much less estrogen than you would take orally and it's way more effective than anything else currently out there. I'm so happy my endo has found suitable progesterone pellets because that means now I don't even need injections of any sort.
I've never taken a hormone or AA pill in my life, and I don't ever plan on doing it. Highly recommend!
11, 12, 13 pellets... 650-975 $ per 3-4 months... say 3.5 in average. 2228.57-3342.86 $ a year. Not counting eventual antiandrogen pellets.
Wow. Unless I become much richer, or the government suddenly starts covering pellets (which is unlikely considering they don't even cover transdermal gels), my answer is going to have to be "no way in hell". My rough yearly income is just above 10 000 $, and I have only 285 $ a month left after medications, rent, Internet, phone and bus pass to get food, save tiny bits and whatever else I might need. A lot of people actually spend more than 285 $ a month on just food... I think if I really wanted to get a TV subscription again, I'm not sure I could afford it even by privating myself even more.
Yeah, I'll see when I'm done studying and hopefully have a relatively good-paying job in my field, after I've gotten thousands in hair removal and possibly some face surgery. :p
PS: You have an antiandrogen pellet too?
Quote from: A on September 09, 2013, 10:53:04 PM
PS: You have an antiandrogen pellet too?
No AA's.. not evar. That's part of what the progesterone is for ;)
Oh. Well I guess the bad effects of using too much hormones for the sake of killing testosterone is definitely counteracted by the fact everything is in pellet form. Makes sense.
Quote from: Jennygirl on September 09, 2013, 07:18:26 PM
My endo is prescribing progesterone pellets now, which are bioidentical and not synthetic. Got loaded up with 12 E pellets and 1 low dose P pellet.
Does anyone know if pellets are available in Canada?
Well the pellets are synthesized in Colorado U.S.A. and can be shipped anywhere in the world, so yes :)
Don't quote me on it though because maybe there is some kind of government restriction on imported medications? You'll just have to ask your endo.
Not sure if they're approved by Health Canada for use altogether, but I'm 99 % sure no province's medication insurance program will pay for a different, more convenient, more expensive delivery method of a pill they already pay for. Transdermal gels have been around for a while, and are in fact the easiest solution for a postmenopausal woman to get relief if pills are out because of a fragile health. So, pellets, that are new, extremely expensive and even require a doctor... nope, don't think so.
Quote from: Jennygirl on September 09, 2013, 07:18:26 PM
My endo is prescribing progesterone pellets now, which are bioidentical and not synthetic. Got loaded up with 12 E pellets and 1 low dose P pellet. Cheers to progesterone!
I'm looking into finding a therapist and getting started on HRT, so I've been researching a bit, but this is the first time I've read about E and P pellets, I didn't know that they existed. Your transition seems to have gone very well so far which means they must work... but do you believe them to be more effective than pills? Also do you know of an article that I could read into maybe to learn more about them? If they work better, or at least on par, it will definitely be something I bring up with an endocrinologist when I get to that step.
Quote from: CourtneyAngelina on September 27, 2013, 09:11:03 PM
I'm looking into finding a therapist and getting started on HRT, so I've been researching a bit, but this is the first time I've read about E and P pellets, I didn't know that they existed. Your transition seems to have gone very well so far which means they must work... but do you believe them to be more effective than pills? Also do you know of an article that I could read into maybe to learn more about them? If they work better, or at least on par, it will definitely be something I bring up with an endocrinologist when I get to that step.
Thank you for your kind words :) I am VERY happy with my results so far.
I've never used any other method so I can't say for sure if they are indeed more effective (and everyone has slightly different results from HRT anyway), but everything on the web and from my endo suggests that it's true due to the slow & even release.
As far as info on pellets, the only decent one I know of is here:
http://www.collegepharmacy.com/images/download/BHRTPelletFAQ.pdf
^ this company is also where my endocrinologist orders the pellets from
It's not really that good of an article, though, because it doesn't detail pellet use for cross gender hormones. My endocrinologist (John O'Dea) is in the process of launching a new website with a plethora of information, and hopefully it will help a lot of people with their decision on which delivery method is right for them. I dunno where you are located, but he has 2 offices, one in Sacramento CA and one in LA. I would highly recommend meeting this man!
Also at the beginning of Sept when I was in for my 4th implantation, he mentioned that he is going to open up a London office :)
Quote from: Jennygirl on September 27, 2013, 09:39:09 PM
Thank you for your kind words :) I am VERY happy with my results so far.
I've never used any other method so I can't say for sure if they are indeed more effective (and everyone has slightly different results from HRT anyway), but everything on the web and from my endo suggests that it's true due to the slow & even release.
As far as info on pellets, the only decent one I know of is here:
http://www.collegepharmacy.com/images/download/BHRTPelletFAQ.pdf
^ this company is also where my endocrinologist orders the pellets from
It's not really that good of an article, though, because it doesn't detail pellet use for cross gender hormones. My endocrinologist (John O'Dea) is in the process of launching a new website with a plethora of information, and hopefully it will help a lot of people with their decision on which delivery method is right for them. I dunno where you are located, but he has 2 offices, one in Sacramento CA and one in LA. I would highly recommend meeting this man!
Also at the beginning of Sept when I was in for my 4th implantation, he mentioned that he is going to open up a London office :)
I live within 45 minutes or so of Los Angeles. When the time comes (I'm a senior in high school right now) I may try to find a way head down to LA. The only problem is I can't do that currently because my parents with almost 100% surety will be unsupportive when I tell them and even possibly kick me out. I've made the decision ( mostly due to fear ) that I won't begin HRT until school ends this June ( I might start in April or May actually, as the results probably wont be too noticeable in the first few months... but that will have to be determined down the road when I have more solid college and/or living arrangements ). But I will most definitely take a look into pellets when I begin. If you don't mind answering, what age did you begin HRT?
I don't want to sound pessimistic, but starting your HRT on pellets, when just out of high school and not thinking your parents will help... "2228.57-3342.86 $ a year. Not counting eventual antiandrogen pellets." is what I roughly calculated from Jennygirl's numbers before. I don't see anyone who's just starting out in life, unless very well off or helped by caring and rich parents, being able to get those. :/ Especially since at this point other costs of transition are likely to be weighing on you.
As for your parents... I don't know your situation, really, but I should say that so far, the vast majority of trans people being afraid or even convinced they would be kicked out by their parents if they came out, that I've read about, found that things went better than expected. Some were bracing themselves for expulsion but were confusingly greeted with support. Less extreme cases were brazing themselves for inacceptance only to find folks who needed some explanation and convincing before they understood.
On top, I was amazed when I read about the story of a (then) young trans woman who transitioned in the 1970s, whose parents didn't accept at all, and they were ashamed of "him". Yet those parents had the decency to wait until she was done with high school to disown her, and when they did, they provided her with some very minimal monthly survival funds so long as she didn't come close enough to them to embarrass them. I was like "whoa, even parents from another age who really didn't understand or support didn't completely abandon her."
I'm not saying there's no risk, and heck, for all I know, things could go anywhere from awesome to awful to you. Just, well, consider this and how many others wished they'd told their family sooner, and weigh it with the perceived risk. I may be being overoptimistic about that though, since I've amazingly been accepted at least decently by everyone so far, but I still do have a feeling that the risk is often much lower than feared.
Jennygirl: I'm curious... Repeatedly having those mini-surgeries... isn't it annoying? Or rather painful? And uh, does it leave you scars? Also... do those pellet things poke through the skin? I still don't have the money at all (and whoa, when I think of it, actually, if I did, I could affort so much electrolysis, or maybe even a tracheal shave in two years o.o).
Quote from: A on September 27, 2013, 11:46:10 PM
I don't want to sound pessimistic, but starting your HRT on pellets, when just out of high school and not thinking your parents will help... "2228.57-3342.86 $ a year. Not counting eventual antiandrogen pellets." is what I roughly calculated from Jennygirl's numbers before. I don't see anyone who's just starting out in life, unless very well off or helped by caring and rich parents, being able to get those. :/ Especially since at this point other costs of transition are likely to be weighing on you.
As for your parents... I don't know your situation, really, but I should say that so far, the vast majority of trans people being afraid or even convinced they would be kicked out by their parents if they came out, that I've read about, found that things went better than expected. Some were bracing themselves for expulsion but were confusingly greeted with support. Less extreme cases were brazing themselves for inacceptance only to find folks who needed some explanation and convincing before they understood.
On top, I was amazed when I read about the story of a (then) young trans woman who transitioned in the 1970s, whose parents didn't accept at all, and they were ashamed of "him". Yet those parents had the decency to wait until she was done with high school to disown her, and when they did, they provided her with some very minimal monthly survival funds so long as she didn't come close enough to them to embarrass them. I was like "whoa, even parents from another age who really didn't understand or support didn't completely abandon her."
I'm not saying there's no risk, and heck, for all I know, things could go anywhere from awesome to awful to you. Just, well, consider this and how many others wished they'd told their family sooner, and weigh it with the perceived risk. I may be being overoptimistic about that though, since I've amazingly been accepted at least decently by everyone so far, but I still do have a feeling that the risk is often much lower than feared.
Jennygirl: I'm curious... Repeatedly having those mini-surgeries... isn't it annoying? Or rather painful? And uh, does it leave you scars? Also... do those pellet things poke through the skin? I still don't have the money at all (and whoa, when I think of it, actually, if I did, I could affort so much electrolysis, or maybe even a tracheal shave in two years o.o).
Don't worry you're not being pessimistic, if anything you're taking a logical approach. It's always good to have people who see things from different angles, it can prevent mistakes.
I'm not really loaded with a bucket of cash, but I plan on going to a university ( have it narrowed down to like 5 or 6 potential ones) in which the required university medical plan covers transition ( there are a few ). So, if I play my cards right, I will be able to transition in college paying no more than I would have had to than if I would have just gone to college without transitioning. I'm not saying that I completely rely on college for transition, but it is my best bet.
As far as my parents go, you're right that some parent's have unpredictable reactions, but after hearing my parents hate-filled rant about transgender Miss Universe contestant Jenna Talackova last year, it became pretty evident to me they aren't open-minded about trans issues. I know, with almost 100% certainty, that they will not be accepting.
Quote from: CourtneyAngelina on September 27, 2013, 10:28:40 PM
If you don't mind answering, what age did you begin HRT?
Late 28 <- yes, I was a little worried at first after what I had read everyone saying about transitioning after you turn 20, but I quickly realized that it's what YOU put into transition that makes the difference. HRT does nothing to alter your presentation, style, voice, mannerisms, or confidence living as a female.
Quote from: A on September 27, 2013, 11:46:10 PM
I don't want to sound pessimistic, but starting your HRT on pellets, when just out of high school and not thinking your parents will help... "2228.57-3342.86 $ a year. Not counting eventual antiandrogen pellets." is what I roughly calculated from Jennygirl's numbers before.
Keep in mind I'm on the pedal to the metal method which is unnecessary for most. You would still have great results from half the dosage I get, it would just be a bit slower... Probably more comparable to injections or very high dose pills. I do the max # of E pellets Dr. O'Dea will prescribe along with however much progesterone I feel that I need. We have been adjusting it and now I'm very happy with my choice of: 12 estrogen pellets + 1 progesterone pellet. That comes out to roughly 1300 every 3 months. Some people can go 4 months in between implantations, it mostly depends on body fat percentage (more fat in the bum = slower release). Yes it costs quite a bit with the route I'm taking, but my rent is DIRT CHEAP for Los Angeles and therefore I'm easily able to afford the high dose, so that's what I do.. Also of note, Dr. O'Dea HATES prescribing antiandrogens. He will only do a low dose of spiro in extreme cases for people with naturally high T or overactive T receptors- which is very, very rare. Seriously, he hates that stuff and whenever I would ask about it he would get literally red in the face at the thought of so many other endo's prescribing it like it's tylenol. I stopped asking him about it ;) Lol...
Also one more thing to note, he keeps mentioning that once orchiectomy is performed (either via SRS or straight up orchi), I will be able to drop my dose significantly- which will bring down cost a lot.
According to my therapist, he is known for "fast tracking" people and she warned me about it. Fortunately for me, that turned out to be exactly what I was looking for!
Quote
Jennygirl: I'm curious... Repeatedly having those mini-surgeries... isn't it annoying? Or rather painful? And uh, does it leave you scars? Also... do those pellet things poke through the skin? I still don't have the money at all (and whoa, when I think of it, actually, if I did, I could affort so much electrolysis, or maybe even a tracheal shave in two years o.o).
Not the least bit annoying (especially when I think of what having to keep up with a daily or even weekly dose would be like). 3 days of keeping a patch on my butt (there are no stitches involved, and it is completely painless) and then 3 months of never having to keep up with a single thing except for life itself! Never felt the pellets poking through the skin, but that would be what they would call an "ejection". I haven't had that happen yet, but I also do take care to be kind to the area for the first 3 days following an implantation.
The scar is minimal.. it looks like I had a 5mm scrape on the left inner side of my natal cleft. It's not noticeable and I don't even think about it. I've heard of some endo's using stitches, but O'Dea just uses a couple of steri-strips and dresses it with gauze. The only part that is a pain is that you have to keep that dry, so if you take a shower you must tape something around it. I usually take a shower right before going in, skip the next day or two if I can and then I'm home free.
Once I have SRS in March, I will be able to drop my E pellets to 3 and will probably keep P at 1 pellet, which comes out to about 300 every 3 months... or 100 a month. Not too bad at all!
Quote from: Jennygirl on September 28, 2013, 03:09:17 AM
Late 28 <- yes, I was a little worried at first after what I had read everyone saying about transitioning after you turn 20, but I quickly realized that it's what YOU put into transition that makes the difference. HRT does nothing to alter your presentation, style, voice, mannerisms, or confidence living as a female.
That makes me feel more confident that HRT will help me out alot. I know I'm still young enough for hormones to have a good effect, but I still always have that worry in the back of my mind that HRT won't work well with me. I guess I shouldn't worry about that though, worrying won't accomplish anything :P
Anyways... your transition has gone very well Jenny! Thanks for the advice :)
Quote from: CourtneyAngelina on September 28, 2013, 03:28:55 AM
That makes me feel more confident that HRT will help me out alot. I know I'm still young enough for hormones to have a good effect, but I still always have that worry in the back of my mind that HRT won't work well with me. I guess I shouldn't worry about that though. It won't accomplish anything :P
Anyways... your transition has gone very well Jenny! Thanks for the advice :)
My pleasure, glad I could help ease your mind :D :D I totally know how you feel with the pre-transition anxiety thing. Luckily, there is a wealth of inspiration here and on youtube.
And thank you, I really could not be happier with how things are turning out! Next step SRS! Sooo ready!!
I'm wondering, why does your endo oppose anti-androgens so strongly? I've heard of endos strongly opposing endos who didn't prescribe antiandrogens and then they'd prescribe huge amounts of hormones like tylenol (not what they said but I found what yours said a good line to say). Does he believe anti-androgens to be harmful, or something?
Quote from: A on September 28, 2013, 01:50:29 PM
I'm wondering, why does your endo oppose anti-androgens so strongly? I've heard of endos strongly opposing endos who didn't prescribe antiandrogens and then they'd prescribe huge amounts of hormones like tylenol (not what they said but I found what yours said a good line to say). Does he believe anti-androgens to be harmful, or something?
Yeah that was the jist of it.. because they are rough on the body and mind. He takes the standpoint that the least amount of medication is the best path for optimal mental and physical health.
Comparing the actual amount of e & p by weight in pellets vs pills is drastically different. Subdermal is a much more efficient method for delivery... and as I understand it, that is a big reason why there are less associated health risks physically. Mentally speaking, the slow steady release keeps you feeling even the whole way through. There is no jolt like you get with injections.
As cross gender hormone treatments become more widespread in practice, I would not be surprised if endocrinologists start pushing pellets as the #1 way. Right now, it does seem kind of like a "gourmet" approach- but it's the closest we might ever get to actually having ovaries in this lifetime.
Well I think pellets and other similar methods are definitely one of the best, if not the best. Thing is, it's utterly indecent to ask people to pay such an amount.
Though what makes me wonder is that to skip anti-androgens, you're gonna have to put in a loooot more estrogen. Which makes it hard to believe that it's actually less medication.
...Though seriously, being cut into several times a year would scare me like hell. I hope they can think of a more permanent kind of pellet soon.
Quote from: A on September 28, 2013, 04:56:33 PM
Though what makes me wonder is that to skip anti-androgens, you're gonna have to put in a loooot more estrogen. Which makes it hard to believe that it's actually less medication.
That's probably exactly what most endos are going to tell you. It's just not true though (when you combine progesterone and use pellets). You have to find an endo who specializes solely in transgender care. And by care, I mean that they really care ;) Most endo's practice cross gender hormone treatment on the side of a bigger practice treating mostly cis people... so their qualification (to treat trans people) probably involved reading a few pages out of an outdated medical book.
It's a shame there isn't more info out there, but it is coming.. I can feel it!
Quote
...Though seriously, being cut into several times a year would scare me like hell. I hope they can think of a more permanent kind of pellet soon.
Amen to that. I would loooooooove a permanent hormone implant!!!!
Uhm, endos specializing in transgender care... there basically aren't any of that. Maybe one (with luck!) per huge city known for having a ton of transsexuals. That would be... eh... four? No, seriously, even in Montreal, second most populated city in Canada, with over 1.5 million people just in the main city (over 3 times more in the metro area), known for being where all LGBT people gravitate to, there's just no such person. In the whole province, there are 3 endos who see transgender patients and have had training for that one in Quebec City, two in Montreal, one of which only sees minors. Period.
Unless you expect the whole planet's transgender people to move to San Francisco, I don't think it's remotely realistic to be hoping for everyone to see an endo who specializes in an issue that only affects about 0.01 % of the population. It's a surprise that such specialists even exist.
The solution is obviously to get general endocrinologists up to speed with an updated standards of care, which is exactly what I'm hoping will happen for the sake of people everywhere. As ->-bleeped-<- becomes more widely known and accepted, I think it very well may occur. One can at least hope- I know I do.
Even just having a single source of good medical literature online would be enough to get the ball rolling- which is why I'm so excited that O'Dea's website will soon be operational. Right now, there is nothing, nadda.
There was a girl who flew in from London to receive care from O'Dea after reading some posts like this, and he thanked me for referring her. Some people will literally go to great lengths to receive the best care. Hopefully soon it will be more at an arm's reach. Until then, we will always have the tried and true methods. And even if they aren't necessarily the most cutting edge, they do work- so it's not like anyone is completely S.O.L. unless there are underlying medical issues (in which case methods like subdermal delivery would be the clear solution).
The next 10 years will be interesting. Even in the past year or so it seems like trans issues are popping up all over the place... more than ever. Let's hope that continues to grow so we can have a bit more attention given to cross gender hormonal treatment guidelines. On one hand I think it's important for people to know there is better care out there because hopefully word will spread to the doctors and they will take it upon themselves, but on the other hand it's frustrating because I know how hard it is to change a doctor's methodologies... and in some areas there just aren't a whole lot of doctors to choose from if they just flat out refuse.
Hmm, well I admit I'm really looking forward to seeing a new endo, in 2014, after my current endo has retired. He's currently in Europe receiving training, and he'll be ready to replace mine (who should've been gone for years) soon. Mine is seriously getting old, so his ability to understand what you tell him and to think deeply are very much impaired, as I've had to experience myself.
Not to mention that most of his patients seem to be the older type that cares less if at all about passing, and he puts us all in the same bag, which makes him say that blood levels that are barely in the female range are acceptable, and makes him downplay my issues because I pass more than most of his patients to begin with. Well, I'm saying this without really knowing, but all clues seem to point towards that. And there's also how at my last appointment I walked past two other patients, one actually sort of trying to pass but with a completely male voice and one who was basically a bald man with male suit, flashy aqua glasses, heels and a purse.
Really looking forward to the next one. And I hope he's smarter and less stubborn. Thing I notice with doctors is that no matter their opinion, they'll overwhelmingly tend to be very stubborn and set on only giving the minimum amount of care. If it's not gonna kill you anytime soon, we'll let it slide. If you have anemia, we won't look into the cause with you, we'll just monitor it and consider acting if it gets worse. If you're trans, over a year and a half on HRT with tons of body hair and no breasts, we'll say it's normal, that there's worse, and not even try to diagnose it.
I really hope my new endo helps. 'Cause honestly I'm tired of being the only one who cares.
Yikes, that does not sound like fun!
This is serious stuff, they should absolutely care about every aspect of what they're giving you... the main reason being that these hormones not only affect us physically but mentally, too. If they really don't care, even our mental health is at stake and we have to take it upon ourselves to cope with that- as if we already don't have enough to think about.
For me from the very first visit, it's been like ordering at a restaurant... "What will it be today, Ms. Girl?" ;) Then I say, "Well, I was pretty happy with what I got last time but I did notice ____" ... that is followed by an explanation on possible reasons and solution on what we could change about dosage options to fix the issue. Sometimes he will sketch a diagram to help describe what's happening, and there is never not a solution. Occasionally I walk away thinking... "Darn, I should have recorded that!" so I could share it here.
I know that he's is in the process of training about 3 more to follow his practice (or something like that) in other cities, London being one for sure. I wonder if one of the trainees will be heading to Canada as yours' replacement? ;D
Dunno. All I know is that as long as "it can't be helped" and "it's natural" aren't his favourite things to say, he'll be better.
As for hormones having a mental effect... Eh, I had a two-week episode of depression-ish symptoms while adjusting to my new estradiol dose, but that's all. o.o
Quote from: A on September 28, 2013, 06:20:47 PM
Unless you expect the whole planet's transgender people to move to San Francisco, I don't think it's remotely realistic to be hoping for everyone to see an endo who specializes in an issue that only affects about 0.01 % of the population. It's a surprise that such specialists even exist.
I live in the LA area. My endo specializes in transgender care, and he's not the same guy that Jenny uses. Maybe there are more of them out there than you are thinking :)
I'm also told by my therapist that the endo will eventually prescribe P for me. I have an appointment with him in about a week and we're going to discuss my treatment (I'm coming off of low dose HRT and putting my foot on the pedal) and I'll be sure to ask him then about the P.
Uh, to be honest I originally thought Los Angeles was an area of San Francisco. But you said that and I realized that I confused that with Beverly Hills and Hollywood.
But uhm yeah. The big cities of California are probably very special. It seems that transsexuals from the whole US (and even from outside of the US I think) just gravitate there.
Not gonna lie, it's pretty darn good! I especially can't imagine myself living anywhere else at this point in my life... Even though I would probably still feel that way if I were cis gendered ;)
So my recent switch to low dose progesterone pellets (rather than injections - I was getting progesterone that way at first) seems to be doing the trick. I think I've gone up to a full B in the past month or so, and for the first time since I started my nipples are very sore which signals to me that they are growing. Even my B cup bras are starting to look a bit overwhelmed.
That's pretty awesome. I'm definitely inquiring about progesterone at my next appointment. Utter flat-chestedness gets old.
I keep hearing of these magical pellets. I think ima ask my endo what he thinks next time i see him. I use injections, which i absolutely love, i dont have those up and down feelings on em some people speak of; but a steady implant with no more needles? Sounds amazing.
Quote from: A on September 30, 2013, 07:02:27 PM
But uhm yeah. The big cities of California are probably very special. It seems that transsexuals from the whole US (and even from outside of the US I think) just gravitate there.
I moved here from Texas for a job (which is funny since everyone is moving the other way). I didn't know what to expect from California but I really, really like the LA area. I knew that I was trans but had never had therapy before. LA's got therapists!..... So i was REALLY fortunate to land a job out here where the law is on our side and the therapy and the medical care is truly top notch.
I'll report back in this thread what my endo's opinion of P is when I see him in a few days. I'm very curious now what he'll say.
My endocrinologist wont prescribe me micronised progesterone instead he gives me a low dose of MPA. I think he is uncomfortable about the whole thing because he knows so little about trans health care. I am seeing another endocrinologist in 6 weeks time. Hopefully I will get my micronised P then. I have had very little breast growth. For a while they seemed like they were going to be about be a B cup but then they shrunk back to an AA.
I managed to get my doctor to prescribe me micronized progesterone on my last visit, even though she tried to tell me that it was no better than provera, almost everything I've heard says that's not the case. I've only been on it for 12 days so I'm not really sure what it's doing for my development, but I've been feeling calmer and in a better mood since I started taking it. It kind of sucks though because I can't get it covered through fair pharmacare, they only cover provera, so I have to pay out of pocket for it. Pharmacare covers all my other meds though, but it costs me $55 to get a one month supply of progesterone, I did manage to get a financial assistance card for it, but that only takes $5 off the price, so it isn't actually that much assistance. I'm really hoping it does help with my boobs though because I'm just under an A cup right now after 1 year and 8 months on estrogen, though my hormone levels did some crazy yoyoing at the beginning of this year that seriously interupted my breast growth but everything seems to be back on track now though.
I met with my endo today and I asked him what his opinion is on progesterone. He said that he believes that there is a synergistic effect between estrogen and progesterone and he thinks it's beneficial. He also says that he leaves the choice up to the patient because of the side effects of progesterone that some people experience. He's got some patients on progesterone and some patients not on it.
When it's time I'm definitely going to take his advice and see if progesterone benefits me.
I have been on progesterone pellets for 2 years along with e pellets, the result is 2 cup increase in size. I just went for a new bra fitting now 38H.
Thought I'd throw my two cents in here as a new O'Dea girl myself:
With both breast size & anti-androgen effects, the Progesterone is the key. Progesterone will lower your testosterone w/o the nasty side effects of low T & High E. You have to figure, even if a genetic girl had 0 Progresterone she wouldn't feel right. Cis women have progesterone, so why deny yourself of it when transitioning?
Quote from: Kristina77 on October 30, 2013, 04:48:35 AMnasty side effects of low T & High E.
What side effects?
Well my next doctors appointment on Monday I'll be prescribed progesterone and well see how it works. Hopefully I'll really grow the girls!
In pregnant genetic women, one of the things progesterone does is stimulate the development of breast tissue. You may notice that pregnant women become very buxom as their breasts get ready to lactate.
"The following chart shows the average growth in the level of progesterone within the body during a pregnancy. The dotted line shows what would happen if no fertilization happened during normal menstrual cycles."
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paternityangel.com%2FArticles_zone%2FHormones%2Fprogesterone.jpg&hash=d4a29ae05dbcad6cf26914865aac0aeb62c9086c)
Quote from: Jamie de la Rosa on October 30, 2013, 10:49:00 AM
In pregnant genetic women, one of the things progesterone does is stimulate the development of breast tissue. You may notice that pregnant women become very buxom as their breasts get ready to lactate.
"The following chart shows the average growth in the level of progesterone within the body during a pregnancy. The dotted line shows what would happen if no fertilization happened during normal menstrual cycles."
So Jamie that is not to infer that nothing would happen for MtF development right? From puberty on there is an uptick in progesterone levels at one point during the natal female cycle which supposedly has some bearing on the breasts internal development of ducts and glands.
I believe that estrogen and progesterone work in synergy to form the adult female body.
I also believe that progesterone is necessary to form Tanner V breasts.
Next week there's a TS care conference in Sweden, where all the psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, endocrinologists, voice therapists and surgeons who work with TS care meet to discuss possible changes for the future. I've heard that one thing the endocrinologists will discuss is whether or not to include progesterone in HRT. I'll have my second meeting with my endo soon, I will ask her what conclusions they reached.
:P
Quote from: Jamie de la Rosa on October 31, 2013, 03:41:08 AM
I believe that estrogen and progesterone work in synergy to form the adult female body.
I also believe that progesterone is necessary to form Tanner V breasts.
I believe that you are right.
I had some progesterone left over from my 'quest for lactation' last fall so I decided to drop the E patch and take progesterone alone for the last 4 days of each month (because of the beneficial effects I noticed when I was on high doses of it).
Starting yesterday I found my mood had badly deteriorated - I was tired and short-tempered and couldn't understand why. Today I realized I am on day #4 of the progesterone only. Oh, I guess this is PMS! :o Good thing I live alone .... hope my dog comes out of hiding soon :-\
Quote from: Northern Jane on October 31, 2013, 12:51:31 PM
I had some progesterone left over from my 'quest for lactation' last fall so I decided to drop the E patch and take progesterone alone for the last 4 days of each month (because of the beneficial effects I noticed when I was on high doses of it).
Starting yesterday I found my mood had badly deteriorated - I was tired and short-tempered and couldn't understand why. Today I realized I am on day #4 of the progesterone only. Oh, I guess this is PMS! :o Good thing I live alone .... hope my dog comes out of hiding soon :-\
I cut my E patch in half one week out of the month and use a topical P, it rounds out the whole HRT program but I notice that I do get slightly darker circles under my eyes during that time.
Hey girls.
I am curious does progesterone have an effect on libido and erections because I've noticed since started on them 3 months ago I tend to get erections more frequently and even get the morning wood every few days or so. Could this be because of the P?
Yes - That's one of the main reasons I have taken it for 30 years. I am androgen insensitive, Progesterone DOES trigger my libido in a way Androgens couldn't.
From my lecture notes as given by our consultant obstetrician - Progesterone also has the following physiological effects. It relaxes ligaments. It lowers the blood pressure by around 10 points by dilating blood vessels thereby decreasing peripheral resistance, but it increases cardiac output by increasing the stroke volume, which is a necessary adaptation to protect the placenta from excessive pressure which could damage it. The chorion needs a good supply of low pressure rapidly moving blood to function.
Progesterone also increases urine output to cope with additional waste products coming from the fetus.
Finally it is psycho-active and has a calming effect on the mood preparing the woman for motherhood.
Yes it can help to increase breast development - but actually, as you can gather, there are a LOT of reasons to take it aside from that. Just one reason why I think that those doctors who fail to prescribe it are probably not think about the benefits in the round, and instead are concentrating too much on its role in protecting against endometrial neoplasm.
Dr. O'Dea's new website is finally up, with a page detailing sex hormones.
QuoteProgesterone and the Progestins
The other feminizing steroid hormones of women are the natural hormone progesterone and a family of synthetic related hormones known as the progestagens or progestins. When administered orally, progesterone is converted vigorously by the liver into metabolites such as allo-pregnanolone which are mind-altering and some of which may be carcinogenic in genetic women. When estrogens are administered, particularly in generous dosage, the concomitant use of progesterone appears to offset the mental side effects of the estrogens, and both progesterone and progestins powerfully complement estrogen as both a feminizing and especially a demasculinizing force. They particularly stimulate breast development and both nipple development and nipple sensitivity. Some practitioners believe that transsexuals should not be given these hormones, and use estrogens only.
http://gendermedical.com/Hormones.html
Quote from: Jennygirl on November 05, 2013, 06:16:20 PM
Dr. O'Dea's new website is finally up, with a page detailing sex hormones.
http://gendermedical.com/Hormones.html
Good article, thanks for posting Jenny!
Quote from: A on October 30, 2013, 09:41:58 AM
What side effects?
I took orals for almost 2 weeks before changing to pellets. I was on a pretty high dosage of orals as I understand it, but overall my experience was-
Orals (T Blocker & Estriadol): Crazy mood swings. I'd take my dosage, and feel relaxed & calm, hungry and sleepy. Then four hours would pass and I'd feel like my old hormonally male self again... and the swing back usually would make me irritable and emotional. It helped splitting my 2 times a day dose into 4, but not a lot. Oh, and Spiro dried my skin out like CRAZY. I'd sleep 8 hours a night and still need a 2 hour nap.
Pellets & Progesterone Shots (No Estriadol, 1/4 my dose of spiro): I have more energy than ever before, I feel like a teenager again. I feel more emotionally stable and happy then I did before the orals or after. I actually cry less, get angry less, and am happier in general.
Quote from: Doctorwho? on November 05, 2013, 02:29:03 PM
From my lecture notes as given by our consultant obstetrician - Progesterone also has the following physiological effects. It relaxes ligaments. It lowers the blood pressure by around 10 points by dilating blood vessels thereby decreasing peripheral resistance, but it increases cardiac output by increasing the stroke volume, which is a necessary adaptation to protect the placenta from excessive pressure which could damage it. The chorion needs a good supply of low pressure rapidly moving blood to function.
Finally it is psycho-active and has a calming effect on the mood preparing the woman for motherhood.
Yes it can help to increase breast development - but actually, as you can gather, there are a LOT of reasons to take it aside from that. Just one reason why I think that those doctors who fail to prescribe it are probably not think about the benefits in the round, and instead are concentrating too much on its role in protecting against endometrial neoplasm.
Thank You for providing this info :). Indeed, those effects are by far too many to be just brushed away. And that part about relaxing ligaments does explain why I suddenly have again my teenage dexterity and flexibility. I wonder if I could do splits again... :)
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 14, 2013, 07:24:55 AM
Thank You for providing this info :). Indeed, those effects are by far too many to be just brushed away. And that part about relaxing ligaments does explain why I suddenly have again my teenage dexterity and flexibility. I wonder if I could do splits again... :)
Just don't try the splits in that crazy cute skirt in your profile pic! :P
I go on P next Friday! I hope it works, and I'll keep you all posted.
So far on HRT, my mood has already greatly improved. The sturm und drang of T grinding away at my brain every day was awful. Anything to get my T level even lower sounds great, and anything to make the breasts grow would be greatly appreciated. I'm still shy of a 'B' cup and would like to end up around a 'D'.
I've been taking Provera orally for a month now and I can't say I've really noticed any side-effects. My mood seems generally the same as it used to be, aside from the overall satisfied feeling from finally being on hormones. In fact, it took me 2-3 weeks to really believe ANYTHING was happening, but now I think I'm feeling the changes. Libido decrease aside (not sure if that's from the E or not), I feel more aware of my breasts and nipples now, and they've been getting a bit sore and tender the past few days. Maybe I'm just lucky that I haven't had the ill-effects of it so far? I'll keep on it at least until my next appointment in February. After that I may consider either cycling the Provera or switching to Prometrium if I feel I'm not progressing like I should. Of course I'll also see what my endo says about it all.
Quote from: Ashey on November 15, 2013, 02:28:06 AM
I've been taking Provera orally for a month now and I can't say I've really noticed any side-effects. My mood seems generally the same as it used to be, aside from the overall satisfied feeling from finally being on hormones. In fact, it took me 2-3 weeks to really believe ANYTHING was happening, but now I think I'm feeling the changes. Libido decrease aside (not sure if that's from the E or not), I feel more aware of my breasts and nipples now, and they've been getting a bit sore and tender the past few days. Maybe I'm just lucky that I haven't had the ill-effects of it so far? I'll keep on it at least until my next appointment in February. After that I may consider either cycling the Provera or switching to Prometrium if I feel I'm not progressing like I should. Of course I'll also see what my endo says about it all.
I know I always preface my comments by pointing out that I am only a medical student and not yet fully qualified, but on this occasion I mean it even more than usual. What follows is based on my own personal experience and opinion rather than anything that I've been officially taught. That said I have discussed my views with one of my lecturers and they did agree that I was probably correct.
I would suggest trying an alternative to Medroxy Progesterone Acetate (provera) - its only virtue is that it is cheap. It is a very very old formulation and if you take it you will be unlikely to get all of the "spin off" benefits that I listed in my earlier post. You may also get horrible mood swings, androgenisation, and headaches. Besides it is not really progesterone - it is a progestin - which isn't quite the same thing, and if that was not enough, your body can and will easily convert it to testosterone.
These days there are far more effective modern alternatives, the best of which is micronised progesterone, sold under various brand names like microgest, prometrium, and Utrogestan. These will give you the beneficial side effects that I mentioned, are somewhat less likely to be converted to androgens, and shouldn't give you all the undesirable effects I mentioned above either.
Quote from: JessicaH on May 27, 2013, 10:06:51 AM
I'd recommend it but I recommend that you only use micronized P and not medroxyprogesterone acetate (provera). I'd also recommend toing 2 weeks on and two weeks off when using it. Jessica why do you recommend Micronized p and not provera please? Thanks
I just got prescribed micronized progesterone. I was on provera but i really didnt notice much. Can anyone share what their experience was like in the first few days on starting micronized progesterone? Also did you cycle or not cycle?
Please do not discuss dosages.
I haven't been able to find much info on cycling or steady dose. What I have read indicated that cycling is most beneficial for the lining of the uterus and when women use it for pregnancy related issues, verses when its used to balance estrogen in menopausal women. I've been on Prometrium for 3 weeks and haven't had much in the way of side effects.
Jenny - I'm just about to begin therapy and was wondering if you knew anyone like Dr O'Dea in the Chicago or Indianapolis area. I mention this, because I live in the middle of nowhere and I'm going to guess that the local endocrinologists will not be able to provide pellet knowledge/techniques. Those would be my nearest two greater metros though.
I will ask him for you at my next appointment during the beginning of Dec, or you are more than welcome to email him yourself! (odeamd@gmail.com) I'm sure he will help if he is able to. It might seem crazy, but someone saw my posts here and has been flying to him from London to receive treatment. There just aren't a whole lot of options out there, unfortunately.
If you aren't able to find an endo who will do something similar to his method, my best suggestion is for you to do injections, patches, or creams. Most likely, injections will be the easiest to find in your area. You will have some mood effects from it due to upward & downward hormonal shifts, but at least it is healthier on the body and feminizes much more effectively than oral.
Jenny I have been reading your posts as well, and have also been reading Dr.O'deas website and think I may actually go to him as I don't believe I am getting the most beneficial treatment I can. The information on the website is a lot to take in but is very helpful and informative. From what I have read I to believe there just isn't enough knowledgeable care available out there either. My current endo while nice and has been treating the community for quite some time she take the same approach for post-op and that is the menopausal approach. So I will see about getting the funds and make a trip to see Dr.Odea
That's great calico! If you go to his LA office let me know if you want to meet up for lunch!
I have to see him in about 3 weeks for my 5th implantation. The way he does it is pretty nice, you can kind of fudge the date however you need or based on how you feel.
After the 2nd implantation (one of the times I chose to up my dose), I did feel a drop in estrogen as I got closer to the 3rd. He said come right in (even though it was 3 weeks until my next scheduled dose) and we upped the dose even further. I love this guy, and I love implant day! And now he offers progesterone pellets so there is no need for anything but the implants.
I can't speak from my own experience about his post-op care, but I'm sure he's great :)
I called the san jose office today actually the conversation was very pleasent and I look forward to going I just wish they dealt directly with insurance but to me its not a deal breaker I still intend to go. An db they gave me an idea of cost wise to so... now just to get it in order I am thinking maybe going to him in january or feb as the lastest meeting up for lunch would be cool!
Thanks Jenny! I also just took a look at plane tickets from OHR to LAX and a round trip for a day would be about $250-300. I will be starting to see a therapist on Monday and will hopefully try for HRT near March/April! There's a backup to see dermatologists in this area and I can't get a cyst removed from my face until the end of February, and didn't know how hormones may interact with that removal.
On a side note, would it be better to rent a car for a few hours/day or just take a taxi?
My Doc prescribed a pill that can be used orally/vaginally, or rectally. Vaginally/rectally are both good methods that go directly into the blood stream. Yeah it sucks sticking "stuff" up there, but it works better than orals. So if you can't get implants, nasal spray, patches, or creams, the vaginal/rectal route works great. Except for the whole sticking it up your butt part. :embarrassed:
Does anyone know if progesterone helps with vaginal dryness? I have anecdotally heard from one person that it may...Thanks.
Quote from: JessicaH on May 30, 2013, 01:19:14 AM
IBTW, bioidentical means it is the IDENTICAL chemical structure to the one produced in the human body.
this
I tried progesterone and stopped. My doctor advised me it didn't have any real merits in MTFs but i persisted. Instead I took it, had mourning sickness like nausea the entire time I was on it and ddint notice any changes. I did some research myself and every claim has its own merits, it helps, it doesn't help, it hurts more than helping. So in the end i decided to put less junk in my body and do without it.
Quote from: SnowDrop on December 09, 2013, 09:10:19 AM
I tried progesterone and stopped. My doctor advised me it didn't have any real merits in MTFs but i persisted. Instead I took it, had mourning sickness like nausea the entire time I was on it and ddint notice any changes. I did some research myself and every claim has its own merits, it helps, it doesn't help, it hurts more than helping. So in the end i decided to put less junk in my body and do without it.
Hi SnowDrop,
What version of progesterone were you on?
I'd have to look in my records, i believe it was medroxyprogestrone, maybe? I remember nausea, sickness, no breast development and mood swings galore. I more or less felt pregnant all the time.
medroxyprogestrone is NOT progesterone! It is some derivative that is not bioidentical. Its value is mostly (if one wants to find any value in it at all) on the uterus of women in the menopause - and even that is not the best use. Plus it can increase cancer risk.
If you want to have the benefits of Progesterone, I think you need to use bioidentical progesterone (aka progesterone, aka natural progesterone, aka micronized progesterone) as this has the same structure as progesterone in the human body. And take it in the evenings, it can make a bit sleepy.
Quote from: anjaq on December 14, 2013, 07:19:16 PM
medroxyprogestrone is NOT progesterone! It is some derivative that is not bioidentical. Its value is mostly (if one wants to find any value in it at all) on the uterus of women in the menopause - and even that is not the best use. Plus it can increase cancer risk.
If you want to have the benefits of Progesterone, I think you need to use bioidentical progesterone (aka progesterone, aka natural progesterone, aka micronized progesterone) as this has the same structure as progesterone in the human body. And take it in the evenings, it can make a bit sleepy.
^This^ And you are soo right about doing P at night. I would never, ever put anything other than bioidentical hormones in my system or swallow any pills other than antiandrogens.
Is the technical name bioidentical progesterone? and does insurance cover yours?
I would not touch antiandrogens now either. Progesterone is a great Testosterone - to - DHT blocker by the way, and with enough Estradiol and Progesterone, Testosterone usually drops anyways.
The stupid thing is that Progesterone is the real name. It is a specific molecule. And it is naturally bioidentical. Sadly the name "Progesterone" has been loosely applied to a numbe rof gestagens that are different in chemistry and not bioidentical, so nowadays one has to check if it really is Progesterone - if it says "natural" or "bioidentical" one can be sure, therwise one has to check the medical ingedientes if they list progesterone.
and in my case insurance pays.
Woohoo! Took my first progesterone pill today. Hopefully I will have something to report soon, no sign of DDD's yet dang it :laugh:
Quote from: Eva Marie on January 16, 2014, 09:47:16 PM
Woohoo! Took my first progesterone pill today. Hopefully I will have something to report soon, no sign of DDD's yet dang it :laugh:
LMAO :D You're so cute hon, great sense of humor!
My first Prometrium script is being processed by by prescription insurance carrier. Initially scheduled to ship on the 21st, then the 22nd, then 24th, now the 27th.
I'll expect them when I see them, and report any effects here once there is something to report.
so i had a meeting with my endo the other day, he was happy to prescribe me prometrium, but he said he thought it best to take it every day, i asked him if it would be better to cycle progesterone on a 13 day cycle like most women get for a menstrual cycle and he told me he didn't care if i did that, his explanation was that there wasn't enough scientific research done for him to make that call but if i wanted to cycle progesterone like that then he didn't see any reason why it would do me any harm.
my question is, would it be better to stay on progesterone everyday or cycle it like a menstrual cycle? do any of you other girls on progesterone have any advice that might be helpful?
My docs told me to take it everyday too. I did the same thing kiaraja, asked them if it would be better to cycle and they said its pointless since we/I dont have a uterus ya know. Then again I haven't tried cycling but I notice when I've been off of progestrerone for a short while I get bad moodswings and just overall feel ->-bleeped-<-ty throughout the day. It doesn't happen every day of the week but I know I don't feel nearly as good like when I'm on progestrone. Been taking P since the start of hrt, for the first 6 months it was medroxy then after I switched (due to depression) to prometrium. Massive difference from the synthetic to bio identical. So yeah been happy ever since!
As far as breast growth mine seem to be developing nicely. My endo said I should reach full development at the rate I'm going. The progesterone has definitely helped with my development since my breasts are developing pretty fully.
ya i noticed that the first day on p i was crazy moody, i was ready to kill someone and was afraid i would probably harm someone, i was 60 feet up on an upper deck and some small problem got blown out of proportion and i had an unbelievably insane temper tantrum, i just about chucked my railing and glass off the deck, i was cursing like a pirate and all the construction workers avoided me after that since they probably thought i was unstable lol, well any hormone change does that to me i guess but all is better now that my system is now used to the p
Ha yeah been there, thankfully when I do turn into the dragon I lock myself away. That way I don't bite anyone's head off lol. Whats strange is I do have a time of the month tho. I just feel super crappy and just get frustrated very easily. I do get bloated and actually that time is coming up soon >:(
i have noticed before i started the p also that i would have a random moodswing happen sometimes, i never looked into it and never recorded the timings but i wouldn't be surprised if i have a pms cycle, every once in a while i do sometimes look in the mirror and feel like im over weight, but i think its more the clothes i wear, and i can't tell if i feel bloating since i am a major glutton, but burning over 5k calories a day needs to be fed
My endo did say it was cause of the P that I get the pms cycle
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on January 20, 2014, 03:28:04 AM
Ha yeah been there, thankfully when I do turn into the dragon I lock myself away. That way I don't bite anyone's head off lol. Whats strange is I do have a time of the month tho. I just feel super crappy and just get frustrated very easily. I do get bloated and actually that time is coming up soon >:(
I realized that I have a hair trigger anger response this week. I find myself weaving in and out of traffic while cursing a blue streak at the other drivers. Going through my day the smallest things that previously would roll off of my back now really chap me. I have no patience. Is this what PMS is like?
On the other hand my boobs seem to have awakened - they are hurting far more than normal.
Note to self: Watch what you do and how you act on P week.
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on January 21, 2014, 04:08:10 AM
My endo did say it was cause of the P that I get the pms cycle
odd I have had the :bad" couple days before the prometrium was added ??? I still have it even after adding it, I don't believe p should cause a pms cycle, well unless you might be cycling it, which then its very likely it could happen.
Just stating what my endo said *shrugs However I've always been suspicious that I possibly might be intersexed
Quote from: Eva Marie on January 21, 2014, 07:55:41 AM
Going through my day the smallest things that previously would roll off of my back now really chap me. I have no patience. Is this what PMS is like?
YES! it is, I remember when I asked my ex the same thing :P
I think if you cycle P, the chances are you get some sort of PMS. Strangely enough when I had no P added, I had 2 days or so every couple of week where I had those PMS symptoms. Like Migraine, being nervous, dizzy, angry, tired, sweating, abdominal pain, ... I still have no clue why. Do I "cycle" myself? Almost seems so though it was definitely not a regular 28 day timeframe, so whatever, but in the wake of this I looked into PMS symptoms. I triggered these twice now when I changed my HT by reducing E2 or P. So it can also be hormonal. I guess I better dont want to cycle P and avoid 2-3 days of that state every 4 weeks ;)
I was using it for awhile but mind you I have no body hair other than crotch so I quit using it recently when I noticed a couple of long thin hairs in the center of my chest. :'(
My endocrinologist put me on Prometrium from day 1. His rationale was that we are attempting to simulate a female hormone balance. I can say that I started to feel "activity" in my nipples within a couple of weeks of starting and that by three months, the underluing buds were about the size of apricots. At 60, that is encouraging.
Ok, so I get that progesterone is a topic of debate. But, after hearing so many accounts where it is said to have aided with breast growth, I am curious. This is something I really want to discuss with my endo. But, I have been on HRT for 2 years today, is it too late to add it now? I'm worried I may have lost my chance for any benefit from it. :icon_sad:
I wouldn't say it is too late. Everyone body is different and responds to meds differently, I would talk to you endo for sure, also I would advise against protesting such as provera which is medroxyprogesterone and doesn't get fully metabolized by our bodies. I would recommend asking for prometrium as it is bio-identical and is fully metabolized by the body. Personal experience, with the provera I was moody and didn't notice much change, when I switched to prometrium I noticed my nipple are became sore and tender at about two weeks after taking, and I believe it has had some additional effect on growth such as filling out and my areola have became larger. I was very surprised as I have been on hormones for quite some time, so that god to show you can still see some changes even if you have been on e for quite some time.
Update: I'm on day 9 of my 10 day monthly cycle today and my boobs have gone on a major itching/sore spree in the last few days. I haven't had one of those in a long time before I started taking P.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 27, 2013, 02:39:17 PM
This last point really scares me and is one of the main reasons I don't even want to try it. But then I hear it really enhances regular HRT effects. I know men can take P with no feminization.
I can offer a little person assurance. I was on HRT for 12 months without progesterone and have now been on it with progesterone for 9 months. I would have to say that the impact, in my case, isn't certain. But it definitely hasn't inhibited anything. I remain as tender as ever and continue to develop.
My doctor emphasized that, if you do take it, it is important to gradually increase and then decrease your dosage ("titration").
Good luck!
Quote from: TinaMadisonWhite on January 25, 2014, 08:12:52 AM
My doctor emphasized that, if you do take it, it is important to gradually increase and then decrease your dosage ("titration").
Good luck!
Did he explain why you would want to go up and down on dosage? My current gp, and Endo said cycling had no effect on changes and would only effect my mood.
Quote from: calico on January 25, 2014, 01:32:16 PM
Did he explain why you would want to go up and down on dosage? My current gp, and Endo said cycling had no effect on changes and would only effect my mood.
I just got prescribed Prometrium (formerly took Provera for a month and got way moody) so I'm looking forward to filling it. My endo says he doubts its efficacy but sees no harm in it if I want to give it a go. He won't give my anti-anxiety meds though. He's my PCP too. So he isn't just handing me out whatever I want. He also won't give me IM estrogen because he says my levels are fine. For $26, i got a month supply. I heard it was a lot more expensive so im happy about that.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on January 25, 2014, 02:03:55 PM
I just got prescribed Prometrium (formerly took Provera for a month and got way moody) so I'm looking forward to filling it. My endo says he doubts its efficacy but sees no harm in it if I want to give it a go. He won't give my anti-anxiety meds though. He's my PCP too. So he isn't just handing me out whatever I want. He also won't give me IM estrogen because he says my levels are fine. For $26, i got a month supply. I heard it was a lot more expensive so im happy about that.
Don't think I quite got that... you saying that you got a month's suppy of Prometrium for $26? Where?
So .... My first 3-month supply of Prometrium just arrived from the Medco mail-order pharmacy ($10 co-pay with my wife's insurance).
But after surviving yet another battle against the drive to end myslef on Tuesday (this has been ongoing, on & off, for over 30 years - but last Tuesday was particularly rough), both my HRT doc & my therapist have told me to stay well away from those round berry-red tablets until I work through why the drive towards suicide has become so strong recently.
/sigh ... So it'll be a while longer before I can report back on how the Prometrium helps or otherwise. In the meantime, my wife will have custody of the pills ... temptation is sometimes hard to resist for this addict ...
Oh, & just in case some may worry about me ending myself: I have successfully managed to not kill myself despite wanting to for over 30 years now. I am one stubborn b!tch; I ain't going that easily.
I've been on a progestin for the last four months......and in that time I went up a cup size, after about nine months of no change in size
TessaMarie, sorry to hear you hit such a low. I have been to the edge more than a few times, actually stepped over once. Good thing my older brother was there to catch me. Listen hon, I'm not a doctor (don't even play one on TV), but I am a user of progesterone. Now, I can't say exactly what it was, but after I started HRT, which included E, P and AA, the frequency of those dark moments decreased dramatically. I must inform you, however, that my third week was a bit of an emotional rollercoaster, but there were no thoughts of self termination, I was just a weepy girl, crying at music, sad movies and big-eyed puppies left outside.
I hope you and your therapist can work out this darkness soon. I know how scary it can be, especially in the rear view mirror. The good news: when you feel you can handle the prometrium, your boobs will sing to you :)
:icon_hug:
Quote from: Oriah on January 30, 2014, 04:51:31 PM
I've been on a progestin for the last four months......and in that time I went up a cup size, after about nine months of no change in size
What progestin did you take (progestins are progesterone derivates and there are dozens of them!)
I am taking Progesterone now for about 10 weeks. I went to my GP last week to ask or a blood checkup as I did not take Estradiol for 4 weeks now. I also described that I have before given Estradiol tablets but dont take them anymore because they cause the estron levels to rise and thats not good. She confirmed that Estron is bad and also immediately told me"and they did not give you progesterone???". I told her that now I have started n it and she said that she can see it. She tole me she did have to look twice in the waiting room as I look so differently from 6 months ago - face, skin, overall appearance and body language, I look happier and more awake and that is all true. She also said it will be good for bones, nerves and most PR are in the brain so it make the braim work better, it is a precursor of many other hormones. And obvioulsy it is alrady visible. Not in breast growth but in the whole body. I was happy about that :)
So, reviving this thread...I started progesterone yesterday, Prometrium oral on top of my estrogen taken sublingually. I'm post-op. Taking it twice daily due to its short half-life. I tried it before with no conclusive results but this time, will stick with it and see what happens. So far, soo good, feel more relaxed, as expected! Warmer all over, also as expected...but also noticed that when I take E sublingually vs orally, I get that warm feeling too, due perhaps to increased vasodilation.
I'm especially interested in the balancing effects of P, calming vs excitatory effects of E on the brain, its effects on skin and hair (softer and less dry), its reputation to make one look younger, more fresh, increase breast growth (add fullness, roundness), reduce water retention sometimes associated with too much E or E alone and give curves, increase subcutaneous fat all the right places. ;D This is after having read tens of hundreds of testimonials from other transsexual (and hysterectomized) women on P, read various studies on humans and animals...so let's see...I'm giving it another try.
Interestingly at the WPATH conference Louis Gooren (the leading TG endocrinologist) said during his plenary talk that taking progesterone was a complete biological waste of time for transgender women, there is no biological proof for efficacy, no credible scientific evidence of an effect.
His opinion was that once uterine transplantation was mainstream in young transgender women (which is happening) then it would be essential for those who wished to carry a fetus as the biological role of progesterone is in the reproductive systems of females but essentially biologically useless for women not in a reproductive phase of life.
Not a single endocrinologist argued against his point of view.
Well then, he should talk to the hundreds of transsexual women that have benefited greatly from the addition of progesterone to their regimen. And answer to the numerous studies out there that show, without a doubt, that progesterone promotes growth of certain structures in the breast that are NOT stimulated by estrogen alone. In fact, a study by his colleagues in the Netherlands (I've personally read several studies by Gooren so know about him) found that...
Short-Term and Long-Term Histologic Effects of Castration and Estrogen Treatment on Breast Tissue of 14 Male-to-Female Transsexuals in Comparison With Two Chemically Castrated Men
Kanhai, Robert C.J. M.D.; Hage, J. Joris M.D., Ph.D.; van Diest, Paul J. M.D., Ph.D.; Bloemena, Elisabeth M.D., Ph.D.; Mulder, J. Wiebe M.D., Ph.D.
Author Information
From the Departments of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery (R.C.J.K., J.J.H., J.W.M.) and Pathology (P.J.v.D., E.B.), Academisch Ziekenhuis Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam, The Netherlands.
Address correspondence and reprint requests to Dr. J. Joris Hage, Department of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, Academisch Ziekenhuis Vrije Universiteit, PO Box 7057, NL-1007 MB Amsterdam, The Netherlands.
"Only in male-to-female transsexuals in whom progestative chemical castration is combined with feminizing estrogen therapy will full acinar and lobular formation occur with hormonally stimulated nuclei and pseudolactational changes. Hence, combined progestative antiandrogens and estrogens are necessary for genetically male breast tissue to mimic the natural histology of the female breast"
"Because the nonprogestative chemical castration in our male patients treated for prostatic cancer did not result in full acinar and lobular formation, although progestative chemical castration combined with estrogen intake in the transsexual patients did, we conclude that exposure to exogenous estrogens and progestative drugs is needed to induce the occurrence of acini and lobules in chemically castrated men."
"such formation seems to decrease when progestative antiandrogen treatment is stopped after surgical castration."
So, his colleagues seem to suggest, based on their scientific observations that the addition of a progestin is necessary for full breast growth and DOES make a difference.
I also wanted to relate a little something that I always notice when adding progesterone, that my areolas puff up (are more swollen) and sooooo soft to the touch. Every single time, it happens! And very soon after its addition. And I think I'm hungrier too.
I have read the WPATH standards of care document and the single paragraph on progesterone refers to a single outdated study from 1986 that used only 8 people on progestins for the duration and the progestin was medroxyprogesterone acetate. The document they wrote uses progestins and progesterone interchangably and lumps them all together in terms of their effects and implications.
I am not massively confident on anything the WPATH present in general having read that, least of all their work on progesterone.
How ironic as well that Gooren should state this, being a proponent of the use of Androcur in his pre-op patients, a progestin with progestative effects. His anti-androgen of choice. I know he doesn't use it for his progestative effects but still, it's ironic. ;D Maybe he thinks it's not necessary because he observes good breast growth in his patients and doesn't realize Androcur has progestative effects or underestimates its progestative effects. Anywho...
SOC is so outdated and irrelevant it isn't funny but that was also part of the reason for the conference.
Kay I'm not interested in arguing, I was an endocrinologist at one time in my career path, I am no longer, and haven't been for a long time. I do have a tendency to listen to unbiased expert opinion. That is all I'm stating, not my personal opinion but that of the leaders in the field.
Quote from: KayXo on February 20, 2014, 10:30:59 AM
And I think I'm hungrier too.
Ain't that the truth! I'm currently about 1/2 way through this month's 10 day progesterone cycle and I could eat a horse right now, and I would still want dessert afterward lol... So I've been eating. Hopefully the progesterone will direct the weight I'm gaining to the right places; my boobs are beginning to itch like crazy so maybe it will go there :)
Quote from: KayXo on February 20, 2014, 09:41:30 AM
I'm especially interested in the balancing effects of P, calming vs excitatory effects of E on the brain, its effects on skin and hair (softer and less dry), its reputation to make one look younger, more fresh, increase breast growth (add fullness, roundness), reduce water retention sometimes associated with too much E or E alone and give curves, increase subcutaneous fat all the right places. ;D This is after having read tens of hundreds of testimonials from other transsexual (and hysterectomized) women on P, read various studies on humans and animals...so let's see...I'm giving it another try.
This !!
Great Kay !!! Please keep us constantly updated ! You know how much I'm interested in this matter.
After all I never trashed anectodal evidence, sometimes it's more faithful to the facts than science
itself ! After all if that theory by doctor John Lee about estrogenic dominance is around, I don't think
definitely it was just a legend without foundations. I will also do the same test, you know, but it will still
require me some months before I see my endo again... you also know my suspect: both cis M and W
have some P, but after SRS it perhaps sets off completely, so I think it's still better with than without it.
Thank you very much for trying and for your contributions to finding the truth.
I started taking a low dose of Prometrium every evening almost 3 weeks ago.
I did feel a bit better the day after I started, & was better able than before to cope with thoughts of suicide that day after that. The big surprise for me was on the day after my 5th capsule: It felt as if the depression that had stifled me for over 30 years had completely left. It has been a little over two weeks now, & it still hasn't returned. Whatever other effects Prometrium may have, this one effect alone outweighs everything else.
I have had brief times of up to one to two weeks relatively free of depression over the past few decades (twice I got as much as a month). So the effect I seem to be noticing may yet prove to be entirely psychosomatic & temporary. I don't really care whether or not the former applies, as long as the latter doesn't. Every time my depression lifted before I tended to start new ways of coping with old problems. This time I am finishing existing tasks instead of starting new tasks. There is a big difference, which my wife is seeing. She is very happy with the improvement in my behaviour so far this month. So am I.
I will report back to this thread later and say whether or not my depression has remained absent. (Anything else is very much secondary for me.)
Be well,
Tessa
Quote from: Cindy on February 20, 2014, 10:48:58 AMI do have a tendency to listen to unbiased expert opinion.
Experts are human beings too. They can make mistakes and are never totally unbiased (emotions, beliefs can get in the way, much too often actually). Even experts disagree amongst each other so who do you listen to then? Always best to look at both sides of the coin to come up with the most unbiased conclusion possible in the end. I just needed to say this and realize you don't want to argue about this.
Honestly, I'm even on the fence about progesterone! I've read and heard the pros and cons. I'm trying it out, again, just to see for myself. Time will tell, in my case. :)
Today I proposed again adding progesterone to the mix:
"No way... We only tried it on a few patients, and the neoplasm risk is too high. So no"
Still, I get a bit of it from Androcur.
Quote from: Cindy on February 20, 2014, 10:12:49 AM
progesterone was a complete biological waste of time for transgender women, there is no biological proof for efficacy, no credible scientific evidence of an effect.
I take it that he didn't mean that it had no effect on *anything* what so ever, rather on 'feminisation' or rather breast development? Did he confirm this?
I am interested in other aspects beyond breast growth (which is important too but still). They include cognitive functions, protections against health complications, mood and a bunch of other things.
Here are some snippets of things on my reading list (these are not my words from here)
Far too many Trans Women have a chronically low level of thyroid function (hypothyroidism). ..and that's enough to give you "dysphoria" by itself....So this latest research alerts us to looking at just how the various components of our HRT might be affecting our Thyroid Condition. And PROGESTERONE is one key.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23252963
Based on these data, which are now included in the guidelines, the use of transdermal estradiol and micronized progesterone could reduce or possibly even negate the excess risk of VTE, stroke, cholecystitis, and possibly even breast cancer associated with oral HRT use."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22432810
Brain function and health ( some may be interested in this: Restores erections)
http://www.healthwatchersnews.com/2010/09/progesterone-and-the-nervous-system/
Progesterone concentrations were significantly positively associated with verbal memory and global cognition in the early group women.
They conclude that "Positive associations for progesterone and sex hormone binding globulin merit additional study."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23800538
There are other studies that tie progesterone to cognitive functioning and repair.
Quote from: AppleJack on February 20, 2014, 12:54:49 PM
Today I proposed again adding progesterone to the mix:
"No way... We only tried it on a few patients, and the neoplasm risk is too high. So no"
Still, I get a bit of it from Androcur.
It might be worth discussing the difference between progestins with your endo.
•Natural, 'body-identical' progesterone, devoid of any androgenic as well as glucocorticoid activities but being slightly hypotensive due to its antimineralocorticoid activity, appears to be the optimal progestogen in terms of cardiovascular effects, blood pressure, VTE, probably stroke and even breast cancer (contrary to synthetic progestogens and particularly MPA, which appear to be mitogenic on breast cells, in synergism withestrogen).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23848491
Basically *natural* progesterone seems to have a positive effect on breast cancer where as they synthetics have a negative effect.
I am not making that assertion, just pointing out some of the literature I am reading.
Quote from: TessaMarie on February 20, 2014, 11:59:35 AM
I started taking a low dose of Prometrium every evening almost 3 weeks ago.
I did feel a bit better the day after I started, & was better able than before to cope with thoughts of suicide that day after that. The big surprise for me was on the day after my 5th capsule: It felt as if the depression that had stifled me for over 30 years had completely left. It has been a little over two weeks now, & it still hasn't returned.
I'm so happy for you and really hope it continues to be so. This is in sharp contrast to medroxyprogesterone acetate which was often prescribed to us in the past which seemed to increase suicidal tendencies in a few and other stuff too like aggression, anxiety, etc.
For myself, I'm on my second capsule and noticed that I'm already much more relaxed than usual. And I definitely welcome this as I tend to be quite an anxious person although I appear calm and composed on the outside. Feel really great! :) BUT, I also expected these effects since orally, high levels of allopregnanolone are produced and have a strong anxiolytic effect, similar to benzodiapenes like Valium, Ativan, Xanax. So, let's see how long these effects persist but progesterone also appears to have a similar albeit weaker calming effect.
Crossing fingers for both of us. ;)
Quote from: AppleJack on February 20, 2014, 12:54:49 PM
Today I proposed again adding progesterone to the mix:
"No way... We only tried it on a few patients, and the neoplasm risk is too high. So no"
Still, I get a bit of it from Androcur.
Neoplasm risks? First I hear of this associated with bio-identical progesterone. If this is true, we should expect this to be a risk for pregnant women whose progesterone levels skyrocket, up to 400 ng/ml. At best, we can expect our levels to reach maybe 50-60, considering how much we usually take.
I suspect that your doctor may be confusing progesterone for other progestins, namely the much dreaded medroxyprogesterone acetate. Do they realize the difference between both, in terms of effects, molecular structure, etc? I've provided several references to that effect that you could show them.
And by the way, you are taking a progestin (Androcur) which is far worst in terms of potential side-effects than bio-identical progesterone so I don't quite understand the reasoning behind prescribing this progestin with a reputation to cause depression in some (confirmed by Gooren although he states it's transient and other endocrinologists in the UK treating transsexual women), increase prolactin significantly, increase clotting risk, effects also confirmed by Gooren's studies and yet refusing to prescribe progesterone which has none of these effects and can actually improve depression in some!
Indeed Akira, if one searches through the literature, there is extensive evidence for progesterone's beneficial effects on the body and for contribution to breast growth.
Here just a few more.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7640409
"These data indicate that the proliferative stimulus of the mammary lobule is more intense during the luteal phase of the normal cycle and may probably be due to a synergistic action between progesterone and estradiol."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8879685
"The breast tissue from women operated on in the luteal menstrual cycle phase (day 15-28 among oral contraceptive (OC) users) had significantly higher proliferative rate than breast tissue removed from women in the follicular phase (day 1-14) (p = 0.01)."
CLIMACTERIC 2005;8(Suppl 1):3–63
Pharmacology of estrogens and progestogens: influence of different routes of administration
"In the breast of primates, progestogens may reduce the expression of the ERa and PR, but the estrogen-induced proliferation of the mammary epithelium is not inhibited, but enhanced by progestogens203."
"In contrast to the endometrium, progesterone and most synthetic progestins enhance the proliferative
effect of estrogens on breast epithelium."
"the mitosis rate in breast cancers was observed to be higher in the luteal phase than in the follicular phase325 »
Which, by the way, does not imply that progesterone contributes to breast cancer since it just states that there is more cell division in breasts with cancerous cells. Whether the cell division involves cancerous cells or not is another story. That's why I also tend to believe that it is best to keep levels constant as fluctuations in a woman's menstrual cycle end up resulting in constant cell death and division, increasing risk, possibly (not a fact), of breast cancer.
To date, there have been no studies, to my knowledge (but, of course, I'm very limited in my knowledge) that have shown a link between bio-identical progesterone and increased breast cancer incidence. But, if there are such studies, please bring them to our attention. We want facts. :) Or maybe in the future, we will find something...but to date, no association as opposed to androgenic progestins like medroxyprogesterone acetate.
AUTHOR Shyamala G
Division of Life Sciences, Lawrence Berkeley
National Laboratory, University of California,
SOURCE J Mammary Gland Biol Neoplasia 1999
ABSTRACT:
Progesterone was identified as a mammogenic hormone several years ago
but until now its role has been obscure. Recently the role of
progesterone signaling in mammary development is becoming more clear.
The most significant observations to emerge from these studies are
(1) progesterone receptors are essential for lobuloalveolar [but
not ductal] morphogenesis.
TITLE: Interaction estradiol-progesterone au niveau des cellules
mammaires humaines normales et pathologiques.
[Estradiol-progesterone interaction in normal and pathological human
breast cells]
AUTHORS: Mauvais-Jarvis P; Kuttenn F; Gompel A; Malet C; Fournier S
SOURCE: Ann Endocrinol (Paris) 1986;47(3):179-87
ABSTRACT
adequate cell differentiation can be obtained with the successive
and synergistic action of estradiol (E2) and progesterone (P),
essentially because the progesterone receptor (PR) synthesis
implicates the previous action of E2
via its E2 receptor (ER). In normal breast, E2 stimulates the growth
of the ductal system whereas the development of acini depends on P
secretion.
TITLE: Effects de la progesterone et des progestatifs sur la glande
mammaire.
[Effects of progesterone and progestational hormones on the mammary
gland]
AUTHORS: Gorins A; Denis C
SOURCE: Arch Anat Cytol Pathol 1995;43(1-2):28-35
ABSTRACT:
The growth of the mammary gland during the active genital period
depends on a delicate balance between the action of the two major
female sex steroid hormones, estradiol and progesterone. The
regulation of growth and maturation of the gland primarily depends on the combined action of estradiol and progesterone.
TITLE Endocrine therapy of transsexualism and potential
complications of long-term treatment.
AUTHOR Futterweit, Walter
SOURCE Archives of Sexual Behavior. Date: 04-05/1998
ABSTRACT:
"the addition of a progestin is indicated initially or several months following onset of estrogen therapy which may have an additional effect on breast enhancement."
This statement, made by an expert who treats, as part of team in Germany (I believe), transsexual women and has done so for several years.
And there are so many more like this...
Well, I'm on day 7 of my 4th P cycle and mah bewbs are definitely sore and jigglier than ever. I'm also crazy horny, but mentally so and not physically.
Quote from: Mirian on February 20, 2014, 11:15:39 AMyou also know my suspect: both cis M and W have some P, but after SRS it perhaps sets off completely, so I think it's still better with than without it.
Men have VERY low levels of P (progesterone) whereas womens' levels fluctuate from low (similar to men) to high during the second part of their cycle (luteal phase). It is true that following orchiectomy or SRS, our levels decline even more as some of it is produced by testicles but I don't think it's significant.
Anyways, time will tell...for me and for you, eventually. :)
I was actually thinking of our conversation before adding the P and it got me thinking of the role of P in our well-being and overall development. It may be one of the reasons I decided to finally add it.
Quote from: Jill F on February 20, 2014, 01:33:55 PM
Well, I'm on day 7 of my 4th P cycle and mah bewbs are definitely sore and jigglier than ever. I'm also crazy horny, but mentally so and not physically.
Both these effects seem to come up quite often with transsexual women, even on other progestins.
Interesting to note as well is progesterone's metabolites, their effects on the body and how they can either be suppressed or increased by certain agents.
Progesterone converts to 5-alpha dihydroprogesterone by means of 5 alpha reductase enzymes, found in various tissues in the body like the liver and the brain. 5-alpha dihydroprogesterone then converts to allopregnanolone and they both interchangeably convert to each other. Allopregnanolone interacts with the GABA receptor and as such, exerts significant anxiolytic effects, reducing anxiety and helping with depression in the process. It is also an anti-convulsant, thus an overall calming neurotransmitter.
But, if finasteride or dutasteride is taken, 5 alpha reductase activity is significantly reduced, thereby reducing allopregnanolone concentrations in the process and ultimately reducing the anxiolytic effects. Also, since 5 alpha reductase activity is very much concentrated in the liver, oral intake vs other routes of progesterone will tend to increase allopregnanolone more and have stronger anxiolytic effects. Finally, it is believed that grapefruit is a potent inhibitor of CYP3A4 present in the digestive tract and liver. CYP3A4 metabolizes progesterone to other inactive, (weaker?), forms. If one takes grapefruit with oral progesterone especially, the resulting effect is increased levels of progesterone (which may vary from one person to another) and hence increased levels of allopregnanolone, thus stronger anxiolytic effects as I'm finding out.
And finally, progesterone appears to affect other enzymes that metabolize many other drugs like CYP2A9 and so may interact with other medications one may be taking but your doctor and pharmacist will know this and will advise you.
I thought it was important to note all this especially the part about finasteride/dutasteride as many of us take it and it might influence how progesterone affects us if we take it orally. Now, you know! :)
p.s.: allopregnanolone is the reason why you feel sleepy, sedated, dizzy, drunk, may have 'interesting' dreams when you take progesterone orally. BUT, the body does get used to it after awhile so the response is much less exaggerated.
p.s.s: taking it with food also increases bioavailability and will also increase its sedative, anxiolytic effects as a result. So, just beware!
In spite of what all the educated experts have to say about whether or not it is of any use to trans women, it is a fact that progesterone levels are elevated at a certain point in the female cycle and is believed to enhance the development of the lobules and ducts of the female breast. A great number of transexual women swear by it, I use a topical progesterone on occasions and feel that it's given me a boost. So obviously it has a purpose beyond it's function during pregnancy and use with estrogen in menopausal women as a hedge against endometrial cancer. Some gender care providers don't think it's valid for use by MtF's because the effects can't be seen and quantified and I suspect that somewhere in the backs of their brains they are stuck thinking only in the terms "men becoming women" which limits their ability to think outside of the man box in terms of progesterone's application as part of MtF HRT, It's subtle but I know it's there.
So, my libido is definitely up...had a sexual dream last night and almost had an orgasm! I see better, almost like my vision was a little clouded before...and I'm very relaxed, no tension at all in my body and that is rare for me! Breasts also look rounder, areolas larger and fuller. Breasts hurt less than usual, much less.
Shantel, we pretty share the same viewpoint.
I think that, since beginning of times, knowing that cis women have both E and P as
their main sexual hormones, any attempt to feminize a cis male body thru its whole
transition and subsequent life should have included both hormones. I mean, as a naive,
intuitive approach before of anything else. Because at the end, wouldn't giving just E
without P sound a bit like giving just P without E ? This still at conceptual level and yet
without scientific case studies.
Now we all agree, more or less, that such case studies involving TG people and
BIODIENTICAL hormones are still perhaps absent in the literature. There's just some
research from the past mostly made with those dreadful and perhaps lethal mixes of synthetic
estrogens and progestINS. And we can't base on those of course (the problems is that
most endocrinologists around still refer to those instead !) And what is even worst, they
often don't care if a patient reports she/he feels bad or suffers symptoms doctors can't
explain, they simply tell you that's impossible, period. There's often no will by their
side to accept that every patient is her/his own story, and thus HR therapies MUST be
carefully adapted and tweaked on a case by case basis - that expecially LISTENING to the
patients !
So at the end I judge that those doctors saying just "no, progesterone (maybe actually
still thinking to progestINS, too) has no purpose for you" are actually founding themselves
on NO scientific bases.
Quote from: KayXo on February 21, 2014, 07:06:53 AM
So, my libido is definitely up...had a sexual dream last night and almost had an orgasm! I see better, almost like my vision was a little clouded before...and I'm very relaxed, no tension at all in my body and that is rare for me! Breasts also look rounder, areolas larger and fuller. Breasts hurt less than usual, much less.
First thing I would suggest you suddently: in the case you might experience some you might define negative
effects (not now, perhaps by some more weeks ?), don't think to suddently suspend it, rather try to adjust
the dose. I suspect it's a matter of tweaking with the E/P ratio, something which possibly varies widely
between person and person. I read somewhere that too much P may be as bad as too little P.
Second: you talked of vision. Very interesting !!! I never talked of that before but now... I actually noticed
ALSO vision issues when I suspended Yasmin and switched to bioidentical E only ! (For those people who
don't know or remember my story: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,155516.0.html, also
I then started a similar topic on tgboards) Notice that I halways had 11/10 since I was born and I never
had any vision problems. Now I started experiencing focusing issues, increased minimal focusing distance
(presbyopia), fatigue reading books or text on the monitor, even worsening of my eye's capability to
focus at infinite (I'm now maybe just 10 or 9 tenths)... in general, it's as my eyes lost some flexibility or
simply became drier. And curiously enough, when I started some little Androcur again (upon my endo's
suggestion, which is a weak progestin) my vision improved ALMOST as before. And you are now reporting
a similar thing happened to you after having added P. Very interesting indeed !
What instead I'm a bit concerned of (or simply it should be better understood) if what you reported about
increased libido and your breast hurting less. Increased sexual drive, libido, sexual dreams and so on
would in theory be rather an androgenic effect - something which may be welcome or course, depending on
people, but still I see it as androgenic effect. Am I wrong ?
Also (from my experience but not just mine) when breasts hurt is a symptom they're growing, or that
at least they stay alive. Am I wrong here ? I always experienced that at least. When I stopped Yasmin and
switched to plain E, I lost at least 50% of my breasts and they stopped hurting. Now that I'm on some
Androcur they grew back and they hurt again. Now I don't mean it's soo nice having painful breasts, but
well, it would actually be a great thing if they could still grow or stay alive without hurting at all :)
Quote from: Mirian on February 21, 2014, 07:39:25 AM
First thing I would suggest you suddently: in the case you might experience some you might define negative effects (not now, perhaps by some more weeks ?), don't think to suddently suspend it, rather try to adjust the dose. I suspect it's a matter of tweaking with the E/P ratio, something which possibly varies widely between person and person. I read somewhere that too much P may be as bad as too little P.
I agree 100%. I thought of that as well, just today and will be doing that.
Quote from: Mirian on February 21, 2014, 07:39:25 AMWhat instead I'm a bit concerned of (or simply it should be better understood) if what you reported about increased libido and your breast hurting less. Increased sexual drive, libido, sexual dreams and so on would in theory be rather an androgenic effect - something which may be welcome or course, depending on people, but still I see it as androgenic effect. Am I wrong ?Also (from my experience but not just mine) when breasts hurt is a symptom they're growing, or that at least they stay alive. Am I wrong here ?
I thought of the same exact thing! Perhaps both are induced by increased relaxation on progesterone. Libido will surely increase if one is more relaxed, one will be more receptive. AND, if one is relaxed, vessels that carry blood to breasts will also be more relaxed, dilated, thus the reduction in pain. Pubertal cisgirls, as compared to us, have much less pain in their breasts even though they grow considerably...so perhaps it's because of the P that they get cyclically every month. Or, yes, it could be increased androgenic effects from P being slightly anti-estrogenic and thereby reducing estrogen's anti-androgenic effects. Too soon to tell. But, I've never heard of significant androgenization being associated with bio-identical progesterone, perhaps the growth of few extra hairs here and there, but no more. I think the ratio of P to E may also count for something so that too much P may depress E too much, causing increased androgenization, amongst many other undesirable effects like PMS.
I neither ever read or heard of androgenic effects related to P. Also I would point out once more what that
so pretty girl we have here named Jennygirl always told us: she never took any AA, just E+P. Jenny can you
confirm ? Maybe it's just about some genetic luck though.
Btw, I know some cases of women who really got ugly during pregnancy: swollen, fat hair, some excess
hair here and there, also sometimes acne. Also a friend of mine reported me severe hair loss during
pregnancy. While most of women don't. But we can't know whether it's just about their P or some other
pathology (ovaric cistis ?) or even simply increased congenital T production.
Or, even, adrenal androgens induced by stress (and that would mean they rather produce not P enough,
since it would have a calming effect)
It's crazy how much you talk like me (or I talk like you, lol!), it's like I'm reading myself! Anyways, our brains work the same, you and me. ;D
I have heard that there is good evidence for just e and p usage, to control t. P will reduce t by itself it seems, as will e. I was reading some advice for handling trans patients from and endocrinologist society that promoted the use of people to control the if aa's were not enough by themselves or were not possible. Sorry for the phone type, I am on my phone.
Quote from: Cindy on February 20, 2014, 10:12:49 AM
His opinion was that once uterine transplantation was mainstream in young transgender women (which is happening) then it would be essential for those who wished to carry a fetus as the biological role of progesterone is in the reproductive systems of females but essentially biologically useless for women not in a reproductive phase of life.
Woah....... Not to be going off topic to much but... I am totally interested in knowing more about this.
Quote from: calico on February 21, 2014, 04:08:13 PM
Yeah me too, but I am sure I will be too old by the time I can afford it!
Woah....... Not to be going off topic to much but... I am totally interested in knowing more about this.
Quote from: anjaq on February 09, 2014, 06:05:01 PM
What progestin did you take (progestins are progesterone derivates and there are dozens of them!)
Norgestimate
Quote from: calico on February 21, 2014, 04:08:13 PM
Woah....... Not to be going off topic to much but... I am totally interested in knowing more about this.
In addition there were great talks on very large cohorts of MtF and FtM on various hormone mixes, the dangers, success and outcomes, some fascinating work on transgender brain structure, surgical techniques, delivery of health care in various countries and models of treating gender incongruent children. I'll start another thread as this one has a separate agenda.
I find it sad that endocrinologists still confuse progestins and progesterone and that they still think that it only plays a role on the uterus if there are sooo many studies showing other effects. Of course many of them are not directly (!) feminizing so if that is the sole focus then all that is left is some effect on the breast development, which some question but which seems to be quite real. But beyond that - reducing water retention, for example in the face makes the fce less "puffy" - which gives a more natural look, thats what I noticed in me. It has effect on the bones and on the brain , mood and all. It boosted my confidence - I mean thats typical for (probably to a large part male?) specialist doctirs - they focus only on pne thing - physical body changes in terms of specific transsexual needs - e.g. change of secondary sex characteristics. Some endocrinologist still thing that no hormones will be able to create a female breast in an XY body - or that hormones cannot really change your face. So I tend to really question their experitise. And to say progesterone is not doing anything when prescribing androcur to all the patients, thats typical. Androcur has some slight progesterone-like effects on breast groth (but not on all the other aspects as it cannot be matabolized) plus it acts possibly as a progesterone inhibitor, locking the receptors and thus decreasing the effect of progesterone if it is added on top of androcur.
With sterilization, Transsexuals loose part of their natural progesterone production, which probably in the case of MtF was not even enough to balance the increased Estradiol (E2) which is added. To claim that there is not a big reduction in Progesterone with removal of the testes and thus we should be fine implies again that old notion that we are "biolgically male" and thus should receive a treatment that fits a "male physiology" which means progesterone can be low (as it would be in "other males") etc. I am sick of that idea that to "make a man look like a woman" (which still seems to be how THEY think of us) one has to kill the "male hormone" (Testo) and add the "female hormone" (Estrogens of any kind). what a sterotypical and archetypical idea. It is so far more complex than that an dI do not understand how endocrinologists do not see that, given that they should be well aware of the complexity of the endocrine systems. Like that Progesterone is linked to all kinds of pathways.
But again - the main fauxpas for them is ther thinking of us as "males who want to look female". That is the whole dilemma. They treat us that way - not realizing that adding estradiol to the body will cause many issues that in all women are balanced by progesterone - in the brain in the bones, in the tissues... and not realizing that there is beginning to be evidece coming up that Transsexuals are having a hypothalamus that is more similar to their "brain sex" than their gonads. Which is possibly why so many transpeople already have hormonal issues beforehand.
This silly notion that basically one just has to add Estradiol and then boobs will grow and fat will redistribute nad the face may feminize a bit due to fat changes - thats just scratiching the surface IMO - the goal should not be as it seems for many to just add a bit of femininity to a male body - but to actually change that body as much as possible, including endocrine systems (sex hormones, steroids, stress hormones,... all of it). This is essential to increase self confidence, fight depression, promote overall body health (bones, digestive systems, skin,...), increase the "radiation of female energy" (sorry, dont know a good english word that sounds less esoteric)...
What I dont know yet is how to really find the best ratio of P to E which seems to be essential, if it is better to take P orally or via the skin or vaginal/sublingual and also if a cycle would make sense or not. For E2 it seems that application via the skin is a lot better as this decreases formation of estrone in the liver. For P4 - KayXo - you said that actually there is something happening in the liver that is actually positive about the Progesterone? I thought of the 5 alpha reductase only as a bad player in the skin and prostate and such which converts Testosterone into DHT and thus causing so much issues. It also seems to do the same to Androstendione which is then also going to DHT via a backdoor. Progesterone also seems to act as a 5 alpha reducatse inhibitor though. I am like some others applying progesterone gel on the skin at the forehead where there was hair loss and seriously - it seems to recover - the fine hair goes longer and thicker again (like before it was blonde and 2mm and now it is like a cm long and dark blonde - after 3 months). It seems to have effects similar to finasteride and a study on skin cells says it is even more effective than progestins in blocking DHT. I did not yet read anything on Progesterone being converted to some anxiolytic hormones though, I need to read that up
KayXo, I would really like to hear more of the literature you found on this and maybe if my access at the uni does not give me that it would be possible to share some documents for legal research purposes ;)
Just to show at a glance some of the main things happening with progesterone in terms of metabolism which is not happening with progestins of course and which has nothing to do with the uterus alone and which makes "you do not need progesteron" quite a crazy statement:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F1%2F13%2FSteroidogenesis.svg%2F2000px-Steroidogenesis.svg.png&hash=2c3fd15809270b4f8ac15c5b98ce8447ce9f868c)
It is all a bit sad to be honest. I only have just under 40 years of clinical research, 80 peer reviewed papers. 5 book chapters, run a diagnostic imaging facility and a proteomic facility. Trained 13 PhD students and more Hons students than I can recall.
I in fact know how ignorant I am; that is part of my job, without knowing my ignorance I can never move forward.
Oh I'm also transgender and I want the best and safest outcomes for myself and my brothers and sisters. As far as P was concerned I mentioned a report on breast development.
Published here:
Katrien Wierckx, Louis Gooren, Guy T'Sjoen. Review: Effect of cross-sex
hormone treatment on breast growth in male-to-female transsexual persons;
no proven benefits of progestins to breast size. (Accepted for
publication in J Sex Medicine)
I do encourage discussion, it is healthy and worthwhile, but please do not dismiss my contributions and those of others because you feel they may not understand you or fit your ideas.
That is hurtful because I and they do care.
Peace
Cindy
Quote from: KayXo on February 21, 2014, 03:49:53 PM
It's crazy how much you talk like me (or I talk like you, lol!), it's like I'm reading myself! Anyways, our brains work the same, you and me. ;D
LOL =)
Quote from: Cindy on February 20, 2014, 10:12:49 AM
His opinion was that once uterine transplantation was mainstream in young transgender women (which is happening) then it would be essential for those who wished to carry a fetus as the biological role of progesterone is in the reproductive systems of females but essentially biologically useless for women not in a reproductive phase of life.
Not to deviate the topic, but are you referring to a permanent or temporary uterus transplant ?
Is it happening, really ??
PLEASE, I hope I can see a similar thread open soon !!!
Quote from: Oriah on February 21, 2014, 07:47:06 PM
Norgestimate
This is a progestin with ANDROGENIC effects. I don't know if you are still taking it but I'd strongly advise you switch to another progestogen with NO androgenic effects.
Quote from: anjaq on February 22, 2014, 05:22:07 AMProgesterone also seems to act as a 5 alpha reducatse inhibitor though. I am like some others applying progesterone gel on the skin at the forehead where there was hair loss and seriously - it seems to recover - the fine hair goes longer and thicker again (like before it was blonde and 2mm and now it is like a cm long and dark blonde - after 3 months). It seems to have effects similar to finasteride and a study on skin cells says it is even more effective than progestins in blocking DHT.
From http://view.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1828548
Cassidenti, D. L., Paulson, R. J., Serafini, P., Stanczyk, F. Z. & Lobo, R. A.
Effects of sex steroids on skin 5 alpha-reductase activity in vitro. Obstetrics and gynecology 78, 103-107 (1991).
"Progesterone, levonorgestrel, and norethindrone demonstrated 97 +/- 5.3%, 47.9 +/- 6.3%, and 59 +/- 4.6% inhibition, respectively, of genital skin 5 alpha-reductase activity at 10(-4) mol/L"
The progesterone level in that study was 10(-4) mol/l = 10(-4)*1000000 mcmol/l = 100 mcmol/l =
31450 ng/ml. Usually, in doses prescribed to us, we usually end up with progesterone levels around 10-30 ng/ml, at most
50-60 ng/ml in the blood. Compare that to the levels needed in that study to inhibit 5-alpha reductase, the difference is about 520 times higher! So, we cannot base ourselves on such a study where levels are beyond imaginable. Not valid.
http://www.kegg.jp/kegg-bin/highlight_pathway?scale=1.0&map=map00140
Interesting to see - indeed 5 a reductase is working on progesterone as well as on another product of it, deoxycorticosterone, which then is in fact producing anti anxiety hormones. So it really seems like blocking 5 a reductase is not the best idea of it all.
Cindy - thats interesting that you did research on this topic. Was your research on steroids or also in other parts of endocrinology? I am just doing biochemistry as part of my scientific work, so I can understand a lot but not really have a broad knowledge on this, but to me it seems clear that a lot of stuff is going on with progesterone besides breast development... whats your opinion on progestins like androcur or medroxyprogesterone - sometimes they are used to supress testosterone - many people I know of think they are harmful and would prefer bioidentical progesterone to be used for this purpose as it is less having side effects. Do you also think that a progestin can actually act antiestrogenous - meaning too much CPA could actually diminish the effect of estradiol?
Quote from: Cindy on February 22, 2014, 06:30:15 AM
Published here:
Katrien Wierckx, Louis Gooren, Guy T'Sjoen. Review: Effect of cross-sex
hormone treatment on breast growth in male-to-female transsexual persons;
no proven benefits of progestins to breast size. (Accepted for
publication in J Sex Medicine)
Is this publication accessible at the moment or not? Because I searched for it and did not find it. In any case, it seems clear to me, based on my own experience at the moment and previously, based on feedback from other transwomen and several studies, that progesterone AFFECTS breasts and has the potential to increase breast growth. In just three days, my breasts are already protruding more, areolas are puffier, larger so there is clearly an effect. I will gladly read any research that says otherwise but honestly, how can I agree when my own experience contradicts it? Perhaps, the anxiolytic effects produced by progesterone's metabolite, allopregnanolone are allowing the E to be more effective but whatever the case may be, the addition of progesterone is having an effect on my breasts and thousands of transsexual (and cis, most probably) women would also attest to this. How can one also account for the repeated findings that breast growth is more during the luteal phase, when both P and E are higher vs the follicular phase when only E is present? Research has no room for feelings, only for facts and this should be our goal. We need to put aside our egos, our pride, our feelings and search for facts that we can all agree on. :)
Quote from: anjaq on February 22, 2014, 07:53:57 AM
Do you also think that a progestin can actually act antiestrogenous - meaning too much CPA could actually diminish the effect of estradiol?
All progestogens are anti-estrogenic but the effect varies from one tissue to another.
CLIMACTERIC 2005;8(Suppl 1):3–63
Pharmacology of estrogens and progestogens: influence of different routes of administration"In the breast of primates, progestogens may reduce the expression of the ERa and PR, but the estrogen-induced proliferation of the mammary epithelium is not inhibited, but enhanced by progestogens203."
"In contrast to the endometrium, progesterone and most synthetic progestins enhance the proliferative
effect of estrogens on breast epithelium."
Quote from: KayXo on February 22, 2014, 07:48:57 AM
"Progesterone, levonorgestrel, and norethindrone demonstrated 97 +/- 5.3%, 47.9 +/- 6.3%, and 59 +/- 4.6% inhibition, respectively, of genital skin 5 alpha-reductase activity at 10(-4) mol/L"
The progesterone level in that study was 10(-4) mol/l = 10(-4)*1000000 mcmol/l = 100 mcmol/l = 31450 ng/ml. Usually, in doses prescribed to us, we usually end up with progesterone levels around 10-30 ng/ml, at most 50-60 ng/ml in the blood. Compare that to the levels needed in that study to inhibit 5-alpha reductase, the difference is about 520 times higher! So, we cannot base ourselves on such a study where levels are beyond imaginable. Not valid.
Well - I guess
a) one has to compare it to the usually prescribed dosages of the other inhibitors to get a picture if it still can be effective, even if it is not that highly concentrated
b) a topical application directly to the skin may possibly increase the effect here before it goes to the serum?
c) could it be that as you described earlier, the orally taken P4 goes to the liver, a lot of it is reduced there with the 5-a-reductase as you described before and the body actually downregulates the activity of 5-a-reductase as there is so much progesterone transformed by it that it has to be regulated? Could this then also downregulate the 5a reducatse elsewhere???
QuoteEffect of cross-sex
hormone treatment on breast growth in male-to-female transsexual persons;
no proven benefits of progestins to breast size
Could not find it either. I see one thing though - it says PROGESTINS.... not progesterone.
Quote from: anjaq on February 22, 2014, 08:09:47 AM
Well - I guess
a) one has to compare it to the usually prescribed dosages of the other inhibitors to get a picture if it still can be effective, even if it is not that highly concentrated
b) a topical application directly to the skin may possibly increase the effect here before it goes to the serum?
c) could it be that as you described earlier, the orally taken P4 goes to the liver, a lot of it is reduced there with the 5-a-reductase as you described before and the body actually downregulates the activity of 5-a-reductase as there is so much progesterone transformed by it that it has to be regulated? Could this then also downregulate the 5a reducatse elsewhere???
All very good questions and suggestions. I don't know! Further research would be needed. But your own experience seems to suggest that topical application of P is effective for scalp hair regrowth unless this was caused by something else going on in your body.
Quote from: anjaq on February 22, 2014, 08:11:51 AM
Could not find it either. I see one thing though - it says PROGESTINS.... not progesterone.
Right but usually both have an effect on breast tissue although some progestins are mildly androgenic (in breast tissue as well?) and if that is the case, then this would be detrimental to breast growth. Some androgenic progestins even appear to have estrogenic effects like norethisterone, or even dienogest. So many factors to consider!
My wife gave me her Balance Progesterone and Estrogen topical crème. It works great. I get the mood swings when I'm not taking it. It also gives me a boost.
The spirolactone given to me(along with some other meds) to keep me alive in my fight with Hep C and cirhossis has pretty much shut down my testosterone production. In 3 months I started growing breasts, and was fatigued and nauseated all day long. There are only 3 places where Estrogen, Testosterone and Progesterone are produced. With 1 shut down, the full weight was put on my adrenal glands. So, with the Progesterone/Estrogen topical (natural stuff) my body is becoming what it always wanted to be.
Here's the gotcha: We are all different, and what works for one person fails in another.
Quote from: KayXo on February 22, 2014, 07:16:32 AM
This is a progestin with ANDROGENIC effects. I don't know if you are still taking it but I'd strongly advise you switch to another progestogen with NO androgenic effects.
Actually, it's antiandrogenic....sorry to burst your bubble. Do your research before you spout misinformation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17505938
Hi Oriah,
I don't mind that you "burst" my bubble. What matters to me is facts. When I provided this information, I only relied on two reports which indicated that norgestimate was androgenic (and not anti-androgenic), these two reports being
1) Maturitas 46S1 (2003) S7–S16
Classification and pharmacology of progestins
2) CLIMACTERIC 2005;8(Suppl 1):3–63
Pharmacology of estrogens and progestogens: influence of different routes of administration
Also, it was noted in them that norgestimate was derived from levonorgestrel, which is androgenic. BUT, I should have investigated further. I'm sorry for having provided only partial information and I'm grateful to you for having provided the above information. Upon further research, here is what I found...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15625768
"The progestins norgestimate and norelgestromin exerted a very low androgenic activity. Our data suggest that norgestimate and its metabolite norelgestromin possess weak androgen-like properties. The use of these compounds for clinical application may be of great advantage in the treatment of breast cancer as well as hyperandrogenism in women."
From insert of birth contraceptive pill containing norgestimate
"Receptor binding studies, as well as studies in animals and humans, have shown that norgestimate and 17-deacetyl norgestimate, the major serum metabolite, combine high progestational activity with minimal intrinsic androgenicity."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1324552?dopt=Abstract
"The contraceptive progestin norgestimate (NGM) has a high affinity for uterine progestin receptors and a lack of affinity for androgen receptors similar to that of natural progesterone."
"Serum levels of sex hormone binding globulin, an indicator of androgen-estrogen balance, also increased significantly with NGM/EE in accordance with its low androgenic activity."
Contraception. 1998 Sep;58(3 Suppl):23S-27S; quiz 67S.
Uniqueness of oral contraceptive progestins.
Carr BR.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Texas
"classification of oral contraceptives according to their level of androgenicity. Under such a system, norgestimate, desogestrel, and norethindrone would fall into the low category. (...)while norgestrel, norethindrone acetate, and levonorgestrel would fall into the high androgenicity category."
I removed doses so that if higher doses are used, then androgenicity increases, most probably. Depends how much norgestimate is used.
Hum Reprod Update. 1995 May;1(3):231-63.
Classification and comparison of oral contraceptives containing new generation progestogens. Newton JR.
University of Birmingham, Women's Health Care Trust, Edgbaston, UK.
"Of particular relevance here may be the recent finding that approximately 20% of administered norgestimate is metabolized into levonorgestrel."
Levonorgestrel is androgenic.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2189281
"Norgestimate is similar to progesterone in not significantly stimulating ventral prostate growth in immature rats, whereas levonorgestrel, gestodene, and desogestrel are significantly androgenic in this model. Further evidence of norgestimate's minimal androgenicity is its lack of affinity for human sex hormone binding globulin in vitro."
Although, this finding was in rats so there may be variations across species.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15379365
"This double-blind study compared the efficacy and tolerability of a combined oral contraceptive containing ethinyl estradiol and drospirenone with a preparation containing EE and norgestimate in the treatment of acne vulgaris"
"both preparations increased the level of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) and decreased the levels of androgens, changes typically associated with acne improvement."
The preparation containing drospirenone proved to be superior on certain counts, either to due its non-androgenic nature whereas norgestimate is weakly androgenic or because drospirenone's anti-androgenic strength is greater. I'm not sure.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8808163
"The newer progestogens desogestrel, norgestimate, gestodene, dienogest and nomegestrol share the common property of having weak or no androgenic effects, but there is great variation between agents in their pharmacokinetic properties and hormonal activities"
And there is another link which shows norgestimate to be androgenic at a certain dose but since the dose is mentioned, I cannot provide this link. :(
Overall, then, based on your study and various findings, it appears norgestimate, on the whole (net effect of anti-androgenic and androgenic effects) exerts minimal/weak androgenic action.
I apologize for not having given a more accurate, global assessment of norgestimate. I should have checked further. Mea culpa. :)
BUT, how exactly are you getting your norgestimate??? Isn't it usually only in birth control pills which are known to increase clotting risks way more than bio-identical estradiol because they contain the estrogen, ethinyl estradiol? If this is the case, then I question its use because there are much safer alternatives, equally effective for feminization.
So, after a few days on progesterone, I'm starting to feel really good, calm and stable (no stress) and my breasts are definitely more swollen, still sore, areola+nipple forming a mound (already!) on top of breasts, breasts more bouncy and tender, areolas darker and wider, breasts fuller. Libido is sometimes more intense than usual but nothing really out of the ordinary.
What I'm really hating though is the "high" that I get from it, 1-2 hours after taking it. I get really dizzy and I'm totally out of it. I don't feel this, of course, if I go to bed soon after taking it. I take P twice daily due to half-life. Always with food (and grapefruit, although effect is variable and may be only slight) to increase absorption. Food doubles concentration. In any case, the effect only lasts about 30-40 mins now and I'm thinking I will probably get used to it eventually. So, I'm ready to bite the bullet for a little while more. ;)
weak androgen receptor agonists have an anti androgeic effect by binding to androgen receptors and causing less stimulation than endogenous androgens.
Quote from: Oriah on February 23, 2014, 01:50:19 PM
weak androgen receptor agonists have an anti androgeic effect by binding to androgen receptors and causing less stimulation than endogenous androgens.
I agree but it would be better to have a progestin (or other substance) which binds the androgen receptor with no agonist activity at all, like bicalutamide, drospirenone, spironolactone or cyproterone acetate ALTHOUGH the 3 progestins mentioned also appeared to have agonist effects at the androgen receptor level in mice/rats (whether this can be applied to humans is questionable not only due to species but doses used). Also, the study you provided suggested, I think that norgestimate was more anti-androgenic than cypro. In the end, I would rather take something that occupies the androgen receptor with no agonist activity at all and drospirenone does appear superior. Bicalutamide is best.
Do you take birth control pills?
What do you think about Chlormadinone as anti androgenic progestine?
Appears to be quite similar to Androcur in how it works but weaker in anti-androgenic properties. May have androgenic action (based on studies in rats and mice?).
We had an earlier discussion about this...
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,158924.msg1352121.html#msg1352121
Quote from: Lara1969 on February 23, 2014, 03:18:33 PM
What do you think about Chlormadinone as anti androgenic progestine?
Chlormadinone - that is a new name to me. And we have no wiki entry on it.
Quote from: KayXo on February 23, 2014, 01:47:12 PM
So, after a few days on progesterone, I'm starting to feel really good, calm and stable (no stress) and my breasts are definitely more swollen, still sore, areola+nipple forming a mound (already!) on top of breasts, breasts more bouncy and tender, areolas darker and wider, breasts fuller. Libido is sometimes more intense than usual but nothing really out of the ordinary.
What I'm really hating though is the "high" that I get from it, 1-2 hours after taking it. I get really dizzy and I'm totally out of it. I don't feel this, of course, if I go to bed soon after taking it. I take P twice daily due to half-life. Always with food (and grapefruit, although effect is variable and may be only slight) to increase absorption. Food doubles concentration. In any case, the effect only lasts about 30-40 mins now and I'm thinking I will probably get used to it eventually. So, I'm ready to bite the bullet for a little while more. ;)
Thank you as ever for the update. Nice to read you feel better and calmer and unstressed. And that
your breast is on ! Unfortunately I can't tell the same about mood, I'm to the point of literally quarreling
with people, I feel angry and impatient about everything, and then I cry. Quite typical of lack of P,
but as you know, I still have before to test increasing E. This is my first day with 3 Estreva pumps,
let's wait and see... surely, if I notice my feelings worsening with 3 pumps, and then even worsening
with 4, I'll be quite sure enough I simply need P. Some people uses to say what I experience is also
what most menopausal women do. But that could even simply due to lack of E indeed.
There could still be a third chance after all... that I might actually need both things: more E anyway, and
ALSO P.
Quote from: Mirian on February 24, 2014, 07:41:33 AM
I'm to the point of literally quarreling with people, I feel angry and impatient about everything, and then I cry.
Usually, such symptoms are from lack of E BUT I've had those persist (even worsen?) with higher doses of E. Could be that I was still not taking enough, but that wouldn't make sense considering breast growth started on higher doses and was quite significant. Usually the threshold for well-being is lower (or equal) than for breast growth. Since adding P, I'm no longer tense or hyper. Very serene indeed. So, for me, P was the missing ingredient! At least, so far.
Volume 18a of Elsevier's New Comprehensive
Biochemistry, Titled 'Hormones and Their Actions, Part I', editors BA
Cooke, RJB King and HJ van der Molen. Published 1988. ISBN
0-444-80996-1. Dewey 612.405.
Chapter 14: Progesterone action and receptors, by
Nancy L Krett, Dean P Edwards and Kathryn B Horwitz, of the University
of Colorado Health Sciences Centre, Denver.
"Progesterone also acts synergistically with estrogen in the normal
development of the breast. Estrogen stimulates cell mitosis and growth
of the ductal system, while lobular development and differentiation is
dependent on progesterone. When estrogen is administered in the absence
of progesterone, the tubular system proliferates and the ducts dilate
resulting in the formation of cysts and fibroses. These changes are
comparable to those observed in fibrocystic disease and are suppressed
by progestins, so that normal breast development requires that estrogen
and progesterone be administered together.[2-4]"
References:
2. Ross GT (1985) In: Textbook of Endocrinology (Wilson JD and Foster
DW, eds) pp 206-258. WB Saunders, Pennsylvania.
3. Mauvais-Jarvis P, Kutten F and Gompel A (1986) Ann. N.Y. Acad. Sci.
464, 152-167.
4. Mauvais-Jarvis P, Kutten F and Gompel A (1986) Breast Cancer Res.
Treat. 8, 179-187.
Can I bring up the subject of progesterone and oestrogen receptors. The number of receptors seems to be influenced by the presence of these hormones.
This document about oestrogen increasing progesterone sensitivity is interesting:
REGULATION OF PROGESTERONE RECEPTOR FORMATION BY ESTROGEN ACTION*
Wendell W. Leavitt2, Tong J. Chen2, Thomas C. Allen2, J. O'Neal Johnston1
Article first published online: 16 DEC 2006
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1977.tb29418.x/abstract
There are others that link oestrogen to increase in progesterone receptors. I have heard suggestions that progesterone increases sensitivity of oestrogen receptors, but I have yet to find good studies to support this.
I think there is a certain amount of interesting discussion to be had about regimens should this be the case.
Volume 18a of Elsevier's New Comprehensive
Biochemistry, Titled 'Hormones and Their Actions, Part I', editors BA
Cooke, RJB King and HJ van der Molen. Published 1988. ISBN
0-444-80996-1. Dewey 612.405
Chapter 14: Progesterone action and receptors, by
Nancy L Krett, Dean P Edwards and Kathryn B Horwitz, of the University
of Colorado Health Sciences Centre, Denver.
"Depending on the physiological state, progesterone may antagonise
estrogen action. One effect of estradiol is to increase the levels of
progesterone receptors (PR). Binding of progesterone to its receptors
then leads not only to progestational effects, but also antiestrogenic
effects by causing a reduction in estrogen secretion into the systemic
circulation; by stimulating the enzyme 17B-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase
which converts estradiol to the less active estrogen estrone; and by
lowering the levels of estrogen receptors in cells thereby decreasing
the ability of target tissue to respond to estradiol [4].
CLIMACTERIC 2005;8(Suppl 1):3–63
Pharmacology of estrogens and progestogens: influence of different routes of administration
"In the breast of primates, progestogens may reduce the expression of the ERa and PR, but the estrogen-induced proliferation of the mammary epithelium is not inhibited, but enhanced by progestogens203."
"In contrast to the endometrium, progesterone and most synthetic progestins enhance the proliferative
effect of estrogens on breast epithelium."
"The primary role of progestogens in HRT is the inhibition of estrogen-induced proliferation of the
endometrium. Moreover, they induce secretory changes in a proliferated endometrium. The
antiestrogenic effect of progestogens in the endometrium is associated with a suppression of ER
and the activation of the 17b-HSD type 2 which converts estradiol to estrone, and the estronesulfotransferase which causes conjugation of estrone."
"Besides their effect on the endometrium, synthetic progestins may act on the vaginal
epithelium as antiestrogens and reduce the maturation index. In the cervix, they reduce the
amount and spinnbarkeit of the mucus, in the tubes they control motility and composition of
fluid, and in the breast they enhance estrogen induced proliferation of mammary epithelium.
Except dydrogesterone, the progestogens may influence central nervous system function and
psyche, inhibit gonadotropin release, increase body temperature, and antagonize various central
effects of estrogens."
"Due to their antiestrogenic effect, progestogens, including progesterone, may counteract the stimulatory and excitatory effects of estrogens on the brain. Beyond this, progesterone exerts a pronounced sedative effect after conversion to 5alpha and 5b-pregnanolone, which bind to the GABAA-receptor. The receptor binding affinity and hormonal activity of metabolites of some synthetic progestins have been investigated (Table 11). It is known that 3a-hydroxy-CMA and 15b hydroxy-CPA exert a pronounced antiandrogenic effect. Some reduced metabolites of the nortestosterone derivatives show some antiandrogenic or androgenic effects, or even a slight estrogenic"
"Owing to their antiestrogenic properties, progestogens may antagonize the stimulatory effects on the central nervous system of estrogens. They may reduce the number of ERs and of synaptic connections, attenuate the effect of excitatory amino acids, and increase the inactivation of neurotransmitters. This may explain the unfavorable effect of progestogens on mood of predisposed women, e.g. in women with a history of premenstrual syndrome320. It has been shown that MPA may impair the beneficial effects of CEE on depressive mood and other psychological symptoms in postmenopausal women 321. The mutual interactions between estrogens and progestogens are still controversially discussed"
From http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm
"Estrogen and progesterone act in an integrative fashion to stimulate
normal adult female breast development. Estrogen, acting through its
ER a receptor, promotes duct growth, while progesterone, also acting
through its receptor (PR), supports alveolar development (15). This
is demonstrated by experiments in ER a knockout mice which display
grossly impaired ductal development, whereas the PR knockout mice
possess significant ductal development, but lack alveolar
differentiation (28,6)."
"In addition, clinical studies have correlated maximal cell
proliferation to specific phases in the female menstrual cycle. For
example, maximal proliferation occurs not during the follicular phase
when estrogens reach peak levels and progesterone is low (less than 1
ng/mL [3.1nmol}), but rather, it occurs during the luteal phase when
progesterone reaches levels of 10-20 ng/mL (31- 62nmol) and estrogen
levels are two to three times lower than in the follicular phase
(42)."
"Given these data and the fact that PR knockout mice lack alveolar
development in breast tissue, it appears as if progesterone,
analogous to estrogen, may increase GH secretion and act through its
receptor on mammary tissue to enhance breast development,
specifically alveolar differentiation (28, 18)."
GH= growth hormone
ER= estrogen receptor
PR= progesterone receptor
That's very interesting. I don't suppose that you have the references from that excerpt do you? You need an account to read from the link that you sent and I don't have one.
Thanks!
Akira
You can register for free. That's what I did! ;)
I did! Thanks :-)
Well, all I gotta say after one week on P is that ...
E+P better than E alone. Wow! Definite synergistic effect. Work beautifully well together. Just surrender to the power of E and P and you shall fly higher than you ever imagined... :)
Quote from: KayXo on February 26, 2014, 06:10:07 PM
Well, all I gotta say after one week on P is that ...
E+P better than E alone. Wow! Definite synergistic effect. Work beautifully well together. Just surrender to the power of E and P and you shall fly higher than you ever imagined... :)
Works wonders for the hips and rear end too...
I find that after about the first week, P can get a bit cloying. I was glad to get off of that ride today. The P cycle also seemed mellower this round than last time. Maybe I'm acclimating?
Quote from: Nikko on February 26, 2014, 06:15:35 PM
Works wonders for the hips and rear end too...
Perfect! Can't wait! ;D
This posted by KayXo worries me about the benefits of progesterone:
!!!!!
"Depending on the physiological state, progesterone may antagonise
estrogen action. One effect of estradiol is to increase the levels of
progesterone receptors (PR). Binding of progesterone to its receptors
then leads not only to progestational effects, but also antiestrogenic
effects by causing a reduction in estrogen secretion into the systemic
circulation; by stimulating the enzyme 17B-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase
which converts estradiol to the less active estrogen estrone; and by
lowering the levels of estrogen receptors in cells thereby decreasing
the ability of target tissue to respond to estradiol [4].
Therefor a cyclical progesterone intake is maybe the best solution.
Indeed, this is the reason why some end up cycling it BUT many women also take it continuously without their feminization, breast growth being compromised at all. In fact, many find it helps them a lot, increases breast growth (giving them also a more natural, rounded appearance), gives their skin a more youthful appearance, makes it softer (hair too), helps with nails, improves how they feel overall, etc. My own experience thus far seems to confirm this. It adds to the beneficial effect on mood of E, to the actions of E on breasts, etc. So, either way, just see how you respond and if things are going well, then why change anything? If not, then cycle or stop taking it altogether. It's that simple. :)
My journey on P continues. 9 days. For the second time in that period, I took Prometrium rectally on top of my oral dose to see if it made a difference. I'm just trying to see how rectal compares to oral. This is, after having read on several sites for women who are trying to become pregnant, that Prometrium, Utrogestan is sometimes taken that way but mostly vaginally and orally. Some transsexual women have also reported that Utrogestan taken rectally worked well for them. And finally, studies have shown that vaginal administration of Utrogestan (like with Estrace) is quite effective and gives higher levels vs oral. This is not my first time trying it this way as I went through a trial period of a few days back in 2012 when I took it that way and how I feel now on oral prometrium vs rectal is pretty much the same, except for the dizziness/drowsiness factor that hits me 1-2 hours after oral intake, which is very bothersome. :( This is mainly the reason I want to test out the rectal, to avoid this AND to get a more natural (higher also) level of progesterone relative to its metabolites which are responsible for the sedative effects.
First day I tried Prometrium rectally, I felt extremely calm, very zen. Like a constant inner peace that lasted probably about 12 hours. But, also kind of spaced out. Breasts also seemed to be much more swollen than usual. Same thing today so far, in terms of how I feel, except it's even better and the spaced out feeling is much less. :) At this point, I'm really tempted to switch to rectal.
This is my own personal experience. In no way do I suggest any of you do the same but if you do, always consult your doctor before. Be safe. :)
I'm wondering, I should be starting HRT soon and Finasteride is only covered here for cancer patients. I've already lost way more hair than I'd like and without the anti-DHT effects of Finasteride I'm pretty sure it would take a lot longer to get that hair loss stopped. I saw mention of Progesterone having anti-DHT effects and wonder if I should request it as part of my HRT (initially Estrace, adding Androcur after a month), although as others have mentioned in this thread, there are more reasons than that to take it.
Quote from: SeekingMyself on March 03, 2014, 07:23:34 PM
I'm wondering, I should be starting HRT soon and Finasteride is only covered here for cancer patients. I've already lost way more hair than I'd like and without the anti-DHT effects of Finasteride I'm pretty sure it would take a lot longer to get that hair loss stopped. I saw mention of Progesterone having anti-DHT effects and wonder if I should request it as part of my HRT (initially Estrace, adding Androcur after a month), although as others have mentioned in this thread, there are more reasons than that to take it.
Is dutasteride an option for you if they won't give you finasteride?
Going by the provincial Formulary, it doesn't look like it.
Androcur will knock out DHT..
Not trying to sidetrack the thread but I've been reading this whole thing. And my eyes are literally falling out and will admit I am very confused on much of it. I'm following what others experiences have been as far as breast development energy libido mood etc. But i'm very confused on the weight loss/gain part. Some sources say weight gain is a side effect and others say it promotes weight loss(which i am totally for but then again who isn't), both in the thread and in the many searches i've done via google etc. Can someone please shed a little more light on this portion of the topic please?
Calli
The weight gain/loss depends on the individual. The only way to know for sure is try it out.
Progesterone does NOT have any significant effect on DHT as the doses required would have to be enormous, if we base ourselves on that one study showing that progesterone inhibited DHT up to 97%. With Androcur, Estrace and finasteride/dutasteride, you will be fine. Androcur is a progestogen but progesterone could still be added for its many other benefits that Androcur doesn't necessarily have. Both are progestogens but they work quite differently.
Androcur sometimes leads to depression so if you are predisposed to it or have had it before, it is not recommended. Also increases prolactin significantly so watch out for that...get levels tested every few months and if you start having breast leakage or feeling pressure behind eyes, advise doctor immediately.
Androcur slightly affects clotting so if you are predisposed to clotting (have family history, factor V Leiden disorder, etc.), it should also not be taken. I'm assuming your doctor knows all this, but just in case, I wanted to let you know. ;)
Finasteride/dutasteride only reduces DHT while Androcur also blocks it. Taking them together is better than taking only one or the other alone. But, if you had to choose, Androcur, for sure.
Thanks for the information! :)
Quote from: MT22TG on March 03, 2014, 10:46:13 PM
Not trying to sidetrack the thread but I've been reading this whole thing. And my eyes are literally falling out and will admit I am very confused on much of it. I'm following what others experiences have been as far as breast development energy libido mood etc. But i'm very confused on the weight loss/gain part. Some sources say weight gain is a side effect and others say it promotes weight loss(which i am totally for but then again who isn't), both in the thread and in the many searches i've done via google etc. Can someone please shed a little more light on this portion of the topic please?
Calli
With my experience, I seem to have lost some weight on P due to muscle mass shrinkage, but the stuff makes me crazy hungry, like I have the munchies. The good news is the new fat seems to be mostly collecting in "girly places".
Quote from: Jill F on March 04, 2014, 05:24:29 PM
With my experience, I seem to have lost some weight on P due to muscle mass shrinkage, but the stuff makes me crazy hungry, like I have the munchies. The good news is the new fat seems to be mostly collecting in "girly places".
Same here with the munchies! Except that the progesterone seemed to bulk me up muscle wise too. I did not like that. I stepped down the dose of P and the appetite normalized again, lost weight & a little tiny bit of muscle, and lost some boob too.
Quote from: Jennygirl on March 06, 2014, 03:03:59 AM
Same here with the munchies! Except that the progesterone seemed to bulk me up muscle wise too. I did not like that. I stepped down the dose of P and the appetite normalized again, lost weight & a little tiny bit of muscle, and lost some boob too.
I use a topical application and find that if I spread out only 2 or three applications a month it seems to provide sort of a balance overall, too frequently and there are unwanted side effects like attitude or feeling bloated idk but that's what works best for me.
Since getting into a higher estrogen dose and beginning progesterone daily my breasts have been growing a lot faster and fuller, rather exciting for me :)
Adding progesterone has definitely made a huge difference in that department, for me! I know...can be pretty exciting stuff! hehe. ;D
Does anyone else get dizzy when they take all there progesterone at once? It happens to me every morning and I can never learn my lesson lol
Quote from: Jennygirl on March 06, 2014, 03:03:59 AM
Same here with the munchies! Except that the progesterone seemed to bulk me up muscle wise too. I did not like that. I stepped down the dose of P and the appetite normalized again, lost weight & a little tiny bit of muscle, and lost some boob too.
I get ravenous during the 10 days out of the month that I'm taking P. I eat a lot more but I don't seem to gain any weight from it. I do walk 4 miles every day so maybe that has something to do with it.
My boobs are definitely growing on P. Now if P just didn't have some of the not so nice side effects it has on me it would be great. P gives me PMS-like feelings, I get easily annoyed or angered and I usually have headaches and feel a little queasy during that time. I also have strange food cravings.
Quote from: Eva Marie on March 15, 2014, 11:03:34 AM
I get ravenous during the 10 days out of the month that I'm taking P. I eat a lot more but I don't seem to gain any weight from it. I do walk 4 miles every day so maybe that has something to do with it.
My boobs are definitely growing on P. Now if P just didn't have some of the not so nice side effects it has on me it would be great. P gives me PMS-like feelings, I get easily annoyed or angered and I usually have headaches and feel a little queasy during that time. I also have strange food cravings.
I'm always leery of side effects and mine are kind of scary because I had DVT once in my left leg and though my boobs get fuller and feel heavier when I use Progesterone (it's a topical oil based application) I get a weird feeling in that same leg for a day and feel a bit light headed, so I just use it only two or three times a month. The problem is that the endo doesn't really know squat about the side effects, they all know everything about hormone levels and what to prescribe but side effects in MtF patients are a mystery.
Quote from: Riley Skye on March 15, 2014, 09:56:10 AM
Does anyone else get dizzy when they take all there progesterone at once? It happens to me every morning and I can never learn my lesson lol
This is normal, at first, until your body gets used to it. It's due to the sedative effect of allopregnanolone, a metabolite of progesterone which concentrations are highest when progesterone is taken orally. Taking it with food accentuates the effect while taking it on an empty stomach 2 hours after your last meal, or 1 hour before your next, helps reduce/avoid it BUT progesterone levels also will be less. :(
You can take it at night, close to bedtime. You will sleep like a baby and won't be inconvenienced by it.
This bothered me too, at first, since I take it with meals, in the morning and evening but now, either the effect is less, weeks later or I'm used to it psychologically speaking so don't mind it...I actually quite like it :) I feel so relaxed, so warm inside and it's quite the "trip"! Others have reported that the effect subsides after a month or a few months.
Quote from: Eva Marie on March 15, 2014, 11:03:34 AM
I get ravenous during the 10 days out of the month that I'm taking P. I eat a lot more but I don't seem to gain any weight from it. I do walk 4 miles every day so maybe that has something to do with it.
My boobs are definitely growing on P. Now if P just didn't have some of the not so nice side effects it has on me it would be great. P gives me PMS-like feelings, I get easily annoyed or angered and I usually have headaches and feel a little queasy during that time. I also have strange food cravings.
I find that my appetite has lessened since adding progesterone, I take it twice daily, continuously. Boobs are also bigger, growing more. I think that perhaps taking it twice daily helps avoid the headaches as progesterone has a short half-life so the decline in levels might lead to headaches. I've had them on a few occasions since starting P but only if I'm pretty active, whereas if I'm relaxed and do very little, the headache (and queasiness) almost instantly goes away. I've actually felt calmer, in general, since adding P.
I see no reason to cycle as this can lead to mood swings and has, as far as anecdotal evidence suggests, no advantage in terms of conferring better breast growth. It may even increase the risk of breast cancer as the constant increase and decrease in cell division carries a far greater risk of mutations arising. So far, I've only benefited from the inclusion of P and taking it continuously has avoided the ups and downs. I feel good, feel less bloated than just on E and my breasts are growing more now than ever! :)
Quote from: Shantel on March 15, 2014, 11:12:35 AM
I'm always leery of side effects and mine are kind of scary because I had DVT once in my left leg and though my boobs get fuller and feel heavier when I use Progesterone (it's a topical oil based application) I get a weird feeling in that same leg for a day and feel a bit light headed, so I just use it only two or three times a month. The problem is that the endo doesn't really know squat about the side effects, they all know everything about hormone levels and what to prescribe but side effects in MtF patients are a mystery.
There have been plenty of studies (of which I have the full articles) on the use of micronized progesterone either orally or non-orally with review of side-effects. Transsexual women have also been taking it for more than a decade. Here is an early review, one of the first, I believe. This should help alleviate your concern.
Contraception. 1987 Oct;36(4):373-402.
Oral micronized progesterone. Bioavailability pharmacokinetics, pharmacological and therapeutic implications--a review."No side effects have been reported as far as lipids profile, coagulation factors and blood pressure are concerned. Therefore oral micronized progesterone appears suitable for hormonal replacement therapy in various areas, essentially postmenopause therapy, premenstrual syndrome, correction of irregular cycles and pregnancy maintenance."
And a few more...
Gynecol Endocrinol. 1993 Jun;7(2):111-4.
Liver metabolism during treatment with estradiol and natural progesterone.
"Levels of lipoprotein A and liver enzymes did not change. It is concluded that micronized natural progesterone is an attractive means of progesterone supplementation in postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy without any liver-related side-effects."
Gynecol Endocrinol. 1996 Feb;10(1):41-7.
Clinical evaluation of near-continuous oral micronized progesterone therapy in estrogenized postmenopausal women."No significant changes were observed in blood glucose or liver enzymes."
Furthermore, it is prescribed to pregnant women to avoid miscarriage and is similar to the hormone produced in the human body with no increase in DVT associated with it, despite very high levels during pregnancy, reaching up to 400 ng/ml.
Also, this study
The toxicity of progesterone.
Rudel HW; Kincl FA
Tausk, M., ed. Pharmacology of the endocrine system and related drugs: progesterone, progestational drugs and antifertility agents. Vol. 1. New York, Pergamon Press, 1971. (International Encyclopedia of Pharmacology and Therapeutics Section 48) p. 405-409
"The toxicity of progesterone was studied in rats treated for 26 weeks."
"Mortality did not differ appreciably among the groups. Female animals treated subcutaneously had markedly higher body weights after treatment than the other animals. Liver weights were higher in subcutaneously treated females. Atrophy of the gonads was observed in males and females treated parenterally with high doses. Weight changes in the heart, spleen, and kidney were not significant. There were no changes in microscopically examined organs or in hematologic values. Except for the increased body and liver weights of subcutaneously treated females, progesterone did not effect any significant anatomical changes."
This was at doses (given non-orally, hence more potent, in several times) up to approx. 40 times the doses typically prescribed to us orally. The concentrations of progesterone in the blood must have been insanely high!
The only concern I came across was the possibility (although no increased incidence was found) of an increase in risk of cholestasis (obstructed bile flow from liver to duodenum) with high doses of oral progesterone prescribed during the third term of pregnancy when progesterone levels are already naturally quite high in the body.
Also, keep in mind that you are taking progesterone non-orally so there is even less a chance as much less travels through liver.
Lastly, in my review of pharmacokinetics of topically applied progesterone to the skin, I have found it is poorly absorbed in the blood and that there is barely any change in serum levels of progesterone.
From this study (I have the full study)
Menopause. 2013 Nov;20(11):1169-75.
Percutaneous progesterone delivery via cream or gel application in postmenopausal women: a randomized cross-over study of progesterone levels in serum, whole blood, saliva, and capillary blood.The serum levels of progesterone were, on average, with cream and gel (doses comparable to oral),
0.5 ng/ml (Cmax of 0.6 ng/ml) and 0.35 ng/ml (Cmax of 0.4 ng/ml), respectively, during a 24 hour period.
On comparable dose with oral progesterone, in another study, Cmax was found to be 17.3 ng/ml and average levels to be 4.33 ng/ml for the first 10 hours.
As you can see, topically applied progesterone is poorly transferred to the blood.
I'm not into pharmacology and don't care about all the mumbo jumbo as long as it isn't going to kill me, thanks though!
LOL. ok...was just trying to give you peace of mind, that's all. :)
And here's more for anyone else who might be interested...
Climacteric. 2012 Apr;15 Suppl 1:11-7.
Postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy and cardiovascular disease: the value of transdermal estradiol and micronized progesterone.
"Micronized progesterone has also been shown not to increase the risk of venous thromboembolism and further reduced the incidence of new-onset diabetes when combined with transdermal estrogen. Micronized progesterone has a neutral effect on the vasculature, including a neutral or beneficial effect on blood pressure"
Menopause. 2010 Nov-Dec;17(6):1122-7.
Activated protein C resistance among postmenopausal women using transdermal estrogens: importance of progestogen.
"recent data have shown that norpregnane derivatives but not micronized progesterone increase venous thromboembolism risk among transdermal estrogens users."
"there was no significant change in APC sensitivity among women who used transdermal estrogens combined with micronized progesterone compared with nonusers."
Clin Ther. 1999 Jan;21(1):41-60; discussion 1-2.
Oral micronized progesterone.
"This therapy is well tolerated, with the only specific side effect being mild and transient drowsiness, an effect minimized by taking the drug at bedtime."
Thanks kayxo. That's really useful.
I've read a lot of thing about every kind of progesterones and progestins used in HRT, but cannot be sure if they are doing what they claimed to do, because I don't know people, who used them, but I can speak from my own experience:
I am 33 years old, on 13 months of HRT. My breasts started growing on the 3rd week on hormones and were growing until the 5th month. Then they just stopped and that was all. After I reached 1 year of HRT, I was still unsatisfied with the feminization process - the breast, the hair, the body hair, the fat distribution, curves and so on, so I decided to start Utrogestan, which is the same as Prometrium, just a different brand.
I am taking 200 mg. per day, in divided doses - 100 at morning and 100 at evening, sublingually, right after meal. So far I am taking it for 2-3 weeks and believe it or not, I am already seeing results - my hair changed in texture - now it is more female-like, my face looks somehow softer and rounder, my body hair reduced a little bit... I see nothing about my breasts, but I am sure they will start to grow soon, because the last days I feel unusual tenderness, similar to how I felt in the beginning of HRT, when they were about to grow. I even started to lose weight, which was impossible so far, during all my HRT, because I was gaining all the time, no matter how hard I exercised and being on diets...
Also, I feel much calmer and sleep better :)
No side effects so far :)
Quote from: Stochastic on March 19, 2014, 07:46:28 PM
Here is a link to a recent study on this topic. Not trying to encourage or discourage anyone. Just providing info.
Julia
Clinical Review: Breast Development in Trans Women Receiving Cross-Sex Hormones
Author: Wierckx et al.
Journal: The Journal of Sexual Medicine
Published: 12 MAR 2014
Articlehttp://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jsm.12487/abstract;jsessionid=573A14BF44369E01D839BB952F165C03.f01t02?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jsm.12487/abstract;jsessionid=573A14BF44369E01D839BB952F165C03.f01t02?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false)
Conclusion - Our knowledge concerning the natural history and effects of different cross-sex hormone therapies on breast development in trans women is extremely sparse and based on low quality of evidence. Current evidence does not provide evidence that progestogens enhance breast development in trans women. Neither do they prove the absence of such an effect. This prevents us from drawing any firm conclusion at this moment and demonstrates the need for further research to clarify these important clinical questions.
So at the end of the day, your mileage may vary. *facepalm*
All I know is that mah bewbs are growing a bit faster since I started taking it. Good enough for me.
Quote from: Stochastic on March 19, 2014, 09:50:02 PM
Rather, mileage not well understood. That does not at all question the effects reported by everyone. Simply, research is lacking. It probably should be high in priority given the interest by everyone as well as the positive results reported here.
The said thing is who is it a high priority for that is willing to spend the money?
Big pharma is already making money off of us.
Quote from: Jill F on March 19, 2014, 09:20:08 PM
All I know is that mah bewbs are growing a bit faster since I started taking it. Good enough for me.
^ this
It's P time for me until the 26th. The itching and soreness arrived 4 days after I started, the same as it always does on P. And dang it i've got the munchies now too!
Quote from: Eva Marie on March 20, 2014, 12:22:51 AM
^ this
It's P time for me until the 26th. The itching and soreness arrived 4 days after I started, the same as it always does on P. And dang it i've got the munchies now too!
Haha! The same thing happened to me. Actually a big part of the reason why I scaled back my progesterone dosage was because I put on almost 20lbs in 2 months due to my appetite. After that I was almost too big for my B cup bras, but it's hard to say if it was from the added weight or breast tissue... I think probably a little bit of both. I've been on a moderate dose of progesterone now for the past 7 or 8 months, and my weight has evened out as well as my mood.
I also feel more aggressive when on a high dose of progesterone, but it could have been psychosomatic. I think some of the effects are kind of similar to testosterone but that is just a hunch on how it affects me.
I think its a bit funny that the conclusion is...
"Current evidence does not provide evidence" -Seriously - who starts a sentence with 'the evidence does not provide evidence'? Anyway...
"Current evidence does not provide evidence that progestogens enhance breast development in trans women. Neither do they prove the absence of such an effect. This prevents us from drawing any firm conclusion at this moment."
Translation- We learnt and achieved nothing! Yay! Quick, lets publish our findings!
:-)
This finding goes against what many transsexual women have experienced, against what many published reports have found in mammals (the effect of P on breast proliferation and lobulo-alveolar formation) and the findings that breast growth is more during the luteal phase of a woman's menstrual cycle when her progesterone levels are highest.
I'd be curious to read the whole study and find out what they base their statements on. One always needs to read the full study in detail...Facts often tell a whole different story and do not necessarily support statements. There is bias, money interests, etc.
I just started taking micronized progesterone last night and it could be due to only a few hours of sleep but I'm definitely already feeling sedated. I'm taking it primarily for the boys' development, but also to see if it would make a difference for my skin. I've been on HRT for almost two years now and my skin's oil content and thickness have reduced significantly which was expected, but my face is so dry especially during winter. I read on Wikipedia that p. increases oil production in your skin and plays a role in elasticity and am hoping it's the answer I've been looking for- all transwomen seem to have moisturized and creamy skin but me! I know p. comes with many benefits, but have any of you noticed a change in your skin health since adding p. to your regimen?
Some transsexual women do notice that on P, skin (and hair) becomes much less dry and its condition improves markedly (i.e. softer, younger looking). My skin and hair seem slightly less dry since starting P. It's been about a month.
What I noticed most, up to now, is increased breast volume and feeling calmer.
I'm taking androcur, is this the same as taking progesterone? I would love to take progesterone as well but my endo is really close minded and only does what she thinks is best so she probably won't allow me to take it if I asked her.
Quote from: anais on March 25, 2014, 08:01:48 AM
I'm taking androcur, is this the same as taking progesterone? I would love to take progesterone as well but my endo is really close minded and only does what she thinks is best so she probably won't allow me to take it if I asked her.
Andro does have some progestrogenic effects but it's not the same as (bio-identical) progesterone. That said, it's better than nothing if your endo refuses to prescribe (bio-identical) progesterone. Also it's possible that your endo is thinking of the synthetic garbage (my personal opinion) called Medroxyprogesterone when you mention wanting progesterone, maybe it would help if you specify that it's bio-identical progesterone that you want?
Androcur is a progestogen. It appears to induce similar changes in the breast area that progesterone does. But, other effects in the body differ greatly between both.
Quote from: Jessika Lin on March 25, 2014, 08:41:13 AM
Also it's possible that your endo is thinking of the synthetic garbage (my personal opinion) called Medroxyprogesterone when you mention wanting progesterone, maybe it would help if you specify that it's bio-identical progesterone that you want?
I am amazed how often medroxyprogesterone an progestins are seemingly treated as the same as micronized progesterone in various articles. They are clearly not the same, and personally I would never touch the former due to its much higher occurrence of side effects.
Prometrium®: ask for it by name. :)
Thanks, I see my endo next month so I'm able to ask her but it's not really common here to have progestin added in HRT.
Anais, just remind her how much synthetic stuff like CPA is harmful to the liver with respect to things like bioidentical P which every women (and even boys, to some little extent) naturally procuces !
Good luck !
Thank you, I'll definitely tell her when I see her next time.
I asked my Endocrinologist about Progesterone yesterday. They cited studies and accounts from the Netherlands showing evidence that it has no effect and makes no difference. Then they mentioned studies and accounts from Boston showing evidence that it absolutely has an effect and makes a difference. Funny! :)
Quote from: teeg on March 27, 2014, 09:14:06 AM
I asked my Endocrinologist about Progesterone yesterday. They cited studies and accounts from the Netherlands showing evidence that it has no effect and makes no difference. Then they mentioned studies and accounts from Boston showing evidence that it absolutely has an effect and makes a difference. Funny! :)
Bottom line is that if Progesterone is a part of a natal woman's hormonal makeup then why shouldn't it be a part of a trans woman's as well? There is sufficient evidence that it has some influence on the development of the internal workings of a natal female's breast during puberty and everything to do with the onset of lactation in the last trimester of a pregnancy.
Quote from: teeg on March 27, 2014, 09:14:06 AM
I asked my Endocrinologist about Progesterone yesterday. They cited studies and accounts from the Netherlands showing evidence that it has no effect and makes no difference. Then they mentioned studies and accounts from Boston showing evidence that it absolutely has an effect and makes a difference. Funny! :)
Hey hey Teeg. Do you happen to know anything that could help me identify and find the boston study? Thanks, Kira x
Quote from: Shantel on March 27, 2014, 09:53:20 AM
Bottom line is that if Progesterone is a part of a natal woman's hormonal makeup then why shouldn't it be a part of a trans woman's as well? There is sufficient evidence that it has some influence on the development of the internal workings of a natal female's breast during puberty and everything to do with the onset of lactation in the last trimester of a pregnancy.
That's EXACTLY my theoretical point (the empirical point is that I always felt bad inside and outside, aged and
"de-feminized" every time they both pre and post op suspended me P in any form).
And not just that, I also add (again ?) that even males produce a tiny amount of P in their testis: after
castration/srs there's not anymore. So one might feel worst even just for that little lack of P (WHEN that's
the case, of course, we're definitely all made different).
Since I'm very concerned on how I feel bad since one year without progestogen, I'm now fighting my
own little battle for the truth. I think I will be able to start my bioidentical P in one month at most, and
I WILL keep you updated here and also on tgboards on EVERYTHING. Stay tuned !
Progesterone has been shown to promote cognitive functioning, prevent progesterone deficiency induced hyperthyroidism, and cyst formation in the breasts, ease sleep problems, restore sexual functioning blah blah blah. I have academic reference for those. Why the hell all recommendations for progesterone or not as part of her seem to based on feminisation I don't know. Like boobs are the be all and end all for mtf folk. :-\
Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on March 29, 2014, 09:24:31 AM
Progesterone has been shown to promote cognitive functioning, prevent progesterone deficiency induced hyperthyroidism, and cyst formation in the breasts, ease sleep problems, restore sexual functioning blah blah blah. I have academic reference for those. Why the hell all recommendations for progesterone or not as part of her seem to based on feminisation I don't know. Like breaks are the be all and end all for mtf folk. :-\
Well yeah, and this too of course!
Not to mention help protect against neuro degradation and associated conditions such as parkinsons disease. But no, the size of my boobs is the only thing a mtf has to care about hey? :-\
The problem with what most doctors "know" about progesterone is that most of them are confused by the difference between real human progesterone (ie,P4, prometrium) and medroxyprogesterone acetate (provera/MPA) which is a progestin with remarkably different side effect profiles. The biggest differences in adding P4 is cardiovascular, mental and libido.
Some light reading if you are interested.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15358673
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22834417
HRT and Your Genes: Breast Cancer RIsk or Not?
---Depends on whether your HRT is Bio-identical (estradiol and micronized Progesterone) or Toxic Synthetic ((Premarin and Medroxyprogesterone)
These results suggest that HRT with natural estrogens affects a much smaller number of genes and has less-adverse effects on the normal breast in vivo than conventional, synthetic therapy.
The synthetic therapy significantly enhanced mammographic breast density, an important risk factor for breast cancer.
Two 28-day cycles of daily estradiol (E2) gel 1.5 mg and oral micronized progesterone (P) 200 mg/day for the last 14 days of each cycle did not significantly increase breast epithelial proliferation at the cell level nor at the mRNA level ).
By contrast, two 28-day cycles of daily oral conjugated equine estrogens (CEE) 0.625 mg and oral medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA) 5 mg for the last 14 days of each cycle significantly increased proliferation at both the cell level and at the mRNA level, and significantly enhanced mammographic breast density, an important risk factor for breast cancer.
In addition, CEE/MPA affected around 2,500 genes compared with just 600 affected by E2/P.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Novel+Perspectives+for+Progesterone+in+Hormone+Replacement+Therapy%2C+with+Special+Reference+to+the+Nervous
Novel perspectives for progesterone in hormone replacement therapy, with special reference to the nervous system.
Schumacher M1, Guennoun R, Ghoumari A, Massaad C, Robert F, El-Etr M, Akwa Y, Rajkowski K, Baulieu EE.
Author information
Abstract
The utility and safety of postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy has recently been put into question by large clinical trials. Their outcome has been extensively commented upon, but discussions have mainly been limited to the effects of estrogens. In fact, progestagens are generally only considered with respect to their usefulness in preventing estrogen stimulation of uterine hyperplasia and malignancy. In addition, various risks have been attributed to progestagens and their omission from hormone replacement therapy has been considered, but this may underestimate their potential benefits and therapeutic promises. A major reason for the controversial reputation of progestagens is that they are generally considered as a single class. Moreover, the term progesterone is often used as a generic one for the different types of both natural and synthetic progestagens. This is not appropriate because natural progesterone has properties very distinct from the synthetic progestins. Within the nervous system, the neuroprotective and promyelinating effects of progesterone are promising, not only for preventing but also for reversing age-dependent changes and dysfunctions. There is indeed strong evidence that the aging nervous system remains at least to some extent sensitive to these beneficial effects of progesterone. The actions of progesterone in peripheral target tissues including breast, blood vessels, and bones are less well understood, but there is evidence for the beneficial effects of progesterone. The variety of signaling mechanisms of progesterone offers exciting possibilities for the development of more selective, efficient, and safe progestagens. The recognition that progesterone is synthesized by neurons and glial cells requires a reevaluation of hormonal aging.
http://www.cpementalhealth.com/content/4/1/3
Third time I ask about progesterone to the end, same answer: Not enough benefits, too many side effects. I mentioned the natural progesterone, but no luck.
So I'm DIYing it, sadly. I only find benefits from using it, in both physical and mental health. Also, it could augment my possibilities of getting a better BA, such as improving the breast shape and areolas ( I can't have the BA done from them)
Quote from: JessicaH on June 16, 2014, 12:20:29 AM
The problem with what most doctors "know" about progesterone is that most of them are confused by the difference between real human progesterone (ie,P4, prometrium) and medroxyprogesterone acetate (provera/MPA) which is a progestin with remarkably different side effect profiles. The biggest differences in adding P4 is cardiovascular, mental and libido.
Some light reading if you are interested.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15358673
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22834417
HRT and Your Genes: Breast Cancer RIsk or Not?
---Depends on whether your HRT is Bio-identical (estradiol and micronized Progesterone) or Toxic Synthetic ((Premarin and Medroxyprogesterone)
These results suggest that HRT with natural estrogens affects a much smaller number of genes and has less-adverse effects on the normal breast in vivo than conventional, synthetic therapy.
The synthetic therapy significantly enhanced mammographic breast density, an important risk factor for breast cancer.
Two 28-day cycles of daily estradiol (E2) gel 1.5 mg and oral micronized progesterone (P) 200 mg/day for the last 14 days of each cycle did not significantly increase breast epithelial proliferation at the cell level nor at the mRNA level ).
By contrast, two 28-day cycles of daily oral conjugated equine estrogens (CEE) 0.625 mg and oral medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA) 5 mg for the last 14 days of each cycle significantly increased proliferation at both the cell level and at the mRNA level, and significantly enhanced mammographic breast density, an important risk factor for breast cancer.
In addition, CEE/MPA affected around 2,500 genes compared with just 600 affected by E2/P.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Novel+Perspectives+for+Progesterone+in+Hormone+Replacement+Therapy%2C+with+Special+Reference+to+the+Nervous
Novel perspectives for progesterone in hormone replacement therapy, with special reference to the nervous system.
Schumacher M1, Guennoun R, Ghoumari A, Massaad C, Robert F, El-Etr M, Akwa Y, Rajkowski K, Baulieu EE.
Author information
Abstract
The utility and safety of postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy has recently been put into question by large clinical trials. Their outcome has been extensively commented upon, but discussions have mainly been limited to the effects of estrogens. In fact, progestagens are generally only considered with respect to their usefulness in preventing estrogen stimulation of uterine hyperplasia and malignancy. In addition, various risks have been attributed to progestagens and their omission from hormone replacement therapy has been considered, but this may underestimate their potential benefits and therapeutic promises. A major reason for the controversial reputation of progestagens is that they are generally considered as a single class. Moreover, the term progesterone is often used as a generic one for the different types of both natural and synthetic progestagens. This is not appropriate because natural progesterone has properties very distinct from the synthetic progestins. Within the nervous system, the neuroprotective and promyelinating effects of progesterone are promising, not only for preventing but also for reversing age-dependent changes and dysfunctions. There is indeed strong evidence that the aging nervous system remains at least to some extent sensitive to these beneficial effects of progesterone. The actions of progesterone in peripheral target tissues including breast, blood vessels, and bones are less well understood, but there is evidence for the beneficial effects of progesterone. The variety of signaling mechanisms of progesterone offers exciting possibilities for the development of more selective, efficient, and safe progestagens. The recognition that progesterone is synthesized by neurons and glial cells requires a reevaluation of hormonal aging.
http://www.cpementalhealth.com/content/4/1/3
Thanks for all this very interesting and useful information. :) The only thing I disagree with is breast proliferation being a marker for breast cancer. Bio-identical estradiol + progesterone can induce quite significant breast proliferation as seen in genetic women during puberty or pregnancy. This does not however mean that breast cancer is increased. Actually, increased pregnancies seems to reduce cancer risk.
Quote from: Julia (Apple-Whatever) on June 16, 2014, 03:41:43 AM
Third time I ask about progesterone to the end, same answer: Not enough benefits, too many side effects. I mentioned the natural progesterone, but no luck.
You should have argued, questioned him more. Perhaps, he would have budged. No harm in discussing with doctor and with disagreeing. You should have mentioned the benefits to you. Did you?
So next month I am adding progesterone to my regimen on a trial basis. I am a bit skeptical on it, because when I did talk to doctors they all said it does nothing, but when I look at the information available online it certainly looks like it does something. I admit to having a bit of trepidation also because my current regimen: Estradiol, Bicalutamide, and Dutasteride works really well for me, and things like breast growth are already going really well. I don't want to "fix what isn't broken" but, I do think that if a natal woman has P then so should I.
One thing though, confuses me about P, why is it that some people say it needs to be cycled and others say there is no medical need to cycle it?
I don't know if I had shared these but hey...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18775609
Could transdermal estradiol + progesterone be a safer postmenopausal HRT? A review.
At the end of the day logic says, progesterone is present in males and females. If you have SRS then you are artificially reducing your progesterone levels its not floating around in your body for no reason.
The links to brain function are more important to me than boob size and in fact it annoys the hell out of me that this is all the GIC seem to think is important for hormone use for trans people. Yes, I am clearly just a walking pair of boobs.
Here is a recent lab rat study that is interesting (just interesting, nothing more at this time I think).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24926824
On the time course, generality and regulation of plasma progesterone release in male rats by stress exposure.
I was going to post the novel perspectives one too, which talks about a lot of the effects of progesterone and a lot of the problems with the use of the word progesterone to mean progestin and generally lumping them all together (a problem that the WPATH guidance makes when using the 1986 study of just 9 people on MPA rather than micronised progesterone).
Quote from: KayXo on June 16, 2014, 06:37:14 PM
You should have argued, questioned him more. Perhaps, he would have budged. No harm in discussing with doctor and with disagreeing. You should have mentioned the benefits to you. Did you?
Last time I told them I was on my own it ended with a menace of "follow our rules or find yourself a private endo.
Honestly, I'm so tired of the whole service that I feel I am there only because of how expensive it would be to privately do everything since I soon will be unemployed. I'd rather request the SRS letters, leave, get my balls removed so that I don't need to pay the whole price of androcur and do everything on my own.
Public healthcare is a dictatorship.
Quote from: Hikari on June 16, 2014, 10:32:30 PM
So next month I am adding progesterone to my regimen on a trial basis. I am a bit skeptical on it, because when I did talk to doctors they all said it does nothing, but when I look at the information available online it certainly looks like it does something. I admit to having a bit of trepidation also because my current regimen: Estradiol, Bicalutamide, and Dutasteride works really well for me, and things like breast growth are already going really well. I don't want to "fix what isn't broken" but, I do think that if a natal woman has P then so should I.
One thing though, confuses me about P, why is it that some people say it needs to be cycled and others say there is no medical need to cycle it?
You may or may not find that P helps with breast growth, mood and skin/hair texture. Trial and error, indeed. :) To state that it does nothing is not true since some women do benefit from taking it.
Some cycle it to mimic women's menstrual cycles but as I have explained it before, I don't see cycling as natural. Progesterone levels rise in the second part of the menstrual cycle to prepare for pregnancy and are supposed to continue rising not suddenly stop, like E. To go through this cycle, again and again, is not what nature intended and can perhaps be detrimental to someone's health long-term as some have suspected. One thing is for sure, it does create mood swings in many women. If you want the downsides of cycling just to go through the same thing, then be it. Your doctor has the last word though. He's the expert. Do as she/he says but you can always have a talk with them beforehand and give your 2 cents. I personally take it continuously, as per my doctor and my own suggestion which he agrees with.
Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on June 17, 2014, 04:15:22 AM
progesterone is present in males and females.
Not entirely correct. In men, progesterone levels are VERY low, barely present and the same could be said of women during the first part of their cycle and during breastfeeding. The only times progesterone is high is during the second part of their cycle and pregnancy, especially.
Quote from: kira21If you have SRS then you are artificially reducing your progesterone levels its not floating around in your body for no reason.
Barely any difference from pre-op. Very little progesterone is produced from testis. We still have our adrenal glands.
Hmmmm, well that information was from the GIC, though it was from the psychiatrists. From what you are saying though, it is still true, even if it is possibly negligible.
It is also my understanding from what they said that gnrh would reduce progesterone levels. I would like to hear whether you know anything about that, as I am currently hoping not to be put on one. My levels are quite good without - my T level is at 0.3 ng/ml
Quote from: KayXo on June 17, 2014, 06:45:36 AM
One thing is for sure, it does create mood swings in many women. If you want the downsides of cycling just to go through the same thing, then be it
Yesterday was day 1 of this month's progesterone cycle and by noon I was one moody, irritable bitch snapping at people in my office. It usually takes until around day 4 for me to begin to feel stuff like that, but it came early this time for some reason.
I'm really not looking forward to what the next 11 days will hold for me. I do like the physical changes that are happening so I will just have to deal with it and try to avoid getting fired because of my moodiness.
So yes, it can and will affect moods.
After thoroughly reading through every post and some links, Im still not convinced P is as miraculous as some are making it out to be. Not to discredit the effects you believe to be happening, but they are truly just testimonials. Not to say that it couldn't be that P in harmony with E are causing better results, could it also not be the prolonged use of E giving the results? Or perhaps it is the placebo effect. What I'm getting at is it seems there is some anti anti-andogen and some pro-progesterin attitude when aa is perfectly acceptable for many MtF. It is only my suggestion to take the tried route of aa first and see how you react to that before delving into P from the get go. At least until further scientific data presents itself.
Quote from: AnnaCannibal on June 17, 2014, 07:17:59 PM
After thoroughly reading through every post and some links, Im still not convinced P is as miraculous as some are making it out to be. Not to discredit the effects you believe to be happening, but they are truly just testimonials. Not to say that it couldn't be that P in harmony with E are causing better results, could it also not be the prolonged use of E giving the results? Or perhaps it is the placebo effect. What I'm getting at is it seems there is some anti anti-andogen and some pro-progesterin attitude when aa is perfectly acceptable for many MtF. It is only my suggestion to take the tried route of aa first and see how you react to that before delving into P from the get go. At least until further scientific data presents itself.
Anna,
P is always supposed to be combined with E, not by itself. P itself is actually a bit AA without the side effects of AAs. Research and studies are out there and if you take advanced bio courses the effects of the combination of one or more of these is pretty evident without a need for a formal study. Most likely because if you know the pathways and subpathways there isnt a need to do a study. Also personally I dont use AAs besides those effects naturally found in P because they are more chemically derived than biologically derived.
~Jen
The problem with doctors is that most are lazy or really don't give a F**k about transpeople to study HRT literature. Doctors that resist prescribing P don't know what they are doing. They haven't looked at the difference between progestins (synthetic/prvera/medroxyprogesterone acetate/MPA) and PROGESTERONE (P4/micronized progesterone/bio identicle progesterone). They are NOT the same thing and many studies have been conflated by not differentiating between the two. And don't think that because your doctor is and "endo", that he is some endocrinology god. They spend most of their careers dealing with diabetes and thyroid issues and do most of their continuing education from drug reps.
I am working on putting a database together on research specifically of trans HRT and when I get further along I will share it here.
Honestly I would like to try P to see the effects myself, but as you said my endo doesn't think its necessary. How do you say something to an otherwise polite person without insulting their intelligence that I'd like to try it?
Quote from: AnnaCannibal on June 18, 2014, 07:14:14 AM
Honestly I would like to try P to see the effects myself, but as you said my endo doesn't think its necessary. How do you say something to an otherwise polite person without insulting their intelligence that I'd like to try it?
Simple: this is my life and my transition and while I respect your opinion I would like to try this.
Anyone can be wrong.
Progesterone for Symptomatic Perimenopause Treatment – Progesterone politics, physiology and potential for perimenopause
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3987489/
Int J Pharm Compd.
2013 Jan-Feb;17(1):74-85.
The effects of compounded bioidentical transdermal hormone therapy on hemostatic, inflammatory, immune factors;
cardiovascular biomarkers; quality-of-life measures; and health outcomes in perimenopausal and postmenopausal women.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23627249
I told my Doctor that I wanted to add Progesterone to my Rx, I also told her flat out that I won't touch Medroxy with a 10 foot pole, mainly because her literature (sourced from the only endo in my area who deals with trans* people) listed Medroxy as the only Progestin. I also explained my reasoning to her and let her know that I've done my own research. It sucks that Medroxy would be covered for me, but I have to pay for my Prometrium out of pocket, but it is what it is.
Quote from: Jessika Lin on June 18, 2014, 11:06:30 AM
I told my Doctor that I wanted to add Progesterone to my Rx, I also told her flat out that I won't touch Medroxy with a 10 foot pole, mainly because her literature (sourced from the only endo in my area who deals with trans* people) listed Medroxy as the only Progestin. I also explained my reasoning to her and let her know that I've done my own research. It sucks that Medroxy would be covered for me, but I have to pay for my Prometrium out of pocket, but it is what it is.
Better to have to pay to be smart than to get paid for being ignorant, way to go sis!
Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on June 17, 2014, 07:42:34 AM
Hmmmm, well that information was from the GIC, though it was from the psychiatrists. From what you are saying though, it is still true, even if it is possibly negligible.
It is also my understanding from what they said that gnrh would reduce progesterone levels. I would like to hear whether you know anything about that, as I am currently hoping not to be put on one. My levels are quite good without - my T level is at 0.3 ng/ml
I really don't think it will negatively impact your P. If you don't want to be put on it, then just have a discussion with them and explain your reasons why.
Quote from: AnnaCannibal on June 17, 2014, 07:17:59 PM
After thoroughly reading through every post and some links, Im still not convinced P is as miraculous as some are making it out to be. Not to discredit the effects you believe to be happening, but they are truly just testimonials. Not to say that it couldn't be that P in harmony with E are causing better results, could it also not be the prolonged use of E giving the results? Or perhaps it is the placebo effect. What I'm getting at is it seems there is some anti anti-andogen and some pro-progesterin attitude when aa is perfectly acceptable for many MtF. It is only my suggestion to take the tried route of aa first and see how you react to that before delving into P from the get go. At least until further scientific data presents itself.
I agree with you. I'm still taking some continuously and honestly, I'm still on the fence about it despite having seen clear signs of some benefits (breasts, mood) because I've also seen other symptoms creep up (bloating, slight depression/numbness, tiredness, irritability) that may indicate that taking E alone could prove to be more beneficial to me (I'm post-op). Like I said, I'm really not sure. Some girls claim it has given them positives, better skin/hair, stronger nails, better mood and breast and I've seen all of those but especially when I switched to injectable E so was it the E or the fact that P worked better with more E since E increases progesterone sensitivity?
Scientific data tells us this and that and yet girls who take it report stuff that contradicts their findings so really, it is not that clear at all. For example, studies have shown progesterone to be a potent diuretic despite increases in deoxycorticosterone, especially orally which increases water retention and YET, plenty of women report feeling increasingly bloated on it and that it disappears soon after stopping P. I also get the feeling that many women have PMS symptoms while on it it while others feel better...and studies suggest it is the drop in progesterone (with the drop in E) that leads to PMS symptoms. Trust me, I spent countless hours reading about it, full studies, actual feedback from genetic, trans women on various forums and it still not 100% clear. I will read on...and use my own experience on it to finally decide on what is truly going on...and will report hopefully, when things clear up.
Quote from: Jennifer.Alexandria on June 17, 2014, 08:47:24 PM
P itself is actually a bit AA without the side effects of AAs.
Not really. Very high doses of oral P need to be taken to reduce testis' production of androgens OR high enough non-orally and post-op, it really does nothing. To effectively inhibit T to DHT formation, super high doses need to be taken which is impossible in our case.
Quote from: Jessika Lin on June 18, 2014, 11:06:30 AM
I told my Doctor that I wanted to add Progesterone to my Rx, I also told her flat out that I won't touch Medroxy with a 10 foot pole, mainly because her literature (sourced from the only endo in my area who deals with trans* people) listed Medroxy as the only Progestin. I also explained my reasoning to her and let her know that I've done my own research. It sucks that Medroxy would be covered for me, but I have to pay for my Prometrium out of pocket, but it is what it is.
My doctor sent a letter so that my Prometrium could be covered just like the Medroxy would. He explained that the reason he prescribed Prometrium instead was because of depression associated with Medroxy...that's all it took! :) I'm saving more than 100$ every month.
Quote from: Shantel on June 18, 2014, 11:46:25 AM
Better to have to pay to be smart than to get paid for being ignorant, way to go sis!
Well said, LOL!
Wait until I start the thread explaining why finasteride and spiro are bad. lol
Finasteride because it reduces 5 alpha-reductase activity and hence allopregnanolone concentrations, responsible for making us feel relaxed and helping us to cope with stress??
Spiro, well, I don't like it already. Messes up electrolytes, can reduce blood pressure too much, have negative effects on the heart, leads to dehydration making one look tired/unhealthy (dry skin too), etc...while taking quite high doses to have significant anti-androgenic activity.
To get back to the main topic, I think perhaps the reason some may experience negative side-effects from progesterone is due to its short half-life so that pretty quickly, progesterone and especially allopregnanolone concentrations drop causing irritability and other symptoms characteristic of PMS symptoms or benzodiapenes (like Xanax, Valium) withdrawal. Even taken twice daily orally, levels fluctuate a little too much and it may be that fluctuation that's causing the problem, not the progesterone. Perhaps, if levels were more steady as is observed during pregnancy where even though levels steadily increase, the change represents an increase (hence, positive) and changes are VERY gradual. But, it appears that even taken vaginally, transdermally or intramuscularly, where levels are more constant and where alloP is much lower, these negative symptoms occur so perhaps not. Maybe it is the P after all.
Is the consensus that if someone wishes to start progesterone, they should request Prometrium from their physician above all other types of progesterone medications out there?
Also what's the best method of taking Prometrium? Orally? Injection?
I think it's perhaps best to take it in a way where levels are steady over time, not fluctuate too much. Orally, levels aren't very steady according to my own experience and study pharmacokinetics where within hours (3-4), levels already start to drop significantly. Maybe take it orally 3-4 times daily?
The problem with injections is that they have to be administered DAILY as even through this route, levels drop quite quickly but are somewhat more steady over 24 hours than oral and MUCH higher (up to 10 times) at the same dose.
There is vaginal but I don't know how many girls are post-op and if post-op, are our vaginas really as effective in absorbing progesterone as ciswomen? Perhaps as time passes. The other route is transdermal (applied to skin) but I'm not too confident about its absorption capabilities over time. Last route is transmucosal where cream or even content in capsules (powder mixed in with oil) can be applied to either inner labia that is quite mucosal even in transwomen or anal opening. But, are levels really steady that way or do they peak and drop rapidly as is the case with sublingual?
As always, discuss these options with your doctor. See what they think.
Quote from: teeg on June 18, 2014, 01:23:02 PM
Is the consensus that if someone wishes to start progesterone, they should request Prometrium from their physician above all other types of progesterone medications out there?
Also what's the best method of taking Prometrium? Orally? Injection?
Injection is always preferable. You will maintain higher and more stable level. One thing you have to watch out for in judging personal experiences or an all out scientific study is the often overlooked "confounding variable". Endocrinology is very complex so if you add something like P4 and have a negative experience, you have to look at ALL the variables. One thing many trans people arent aware of is the negatives of spiro. It may be screwing you up in all sorts of ways that you dont even realize.
Spiro works to suppress Testosterone differently than Estradiol does. Spiro intercepts the brain's signalling hormone LH which triggers the testes to produce testosterone by disabling aldosterone production in the testicles. Any wild and crazy excessive spiro long term use will lead to the pituiatry being 'fooled' and producing more and more LH....which doesn't prove effective....so your LH scores will be very high.
When estradiol is used to suppress Testosterone production it does so through action on the brain...with all the good things that come with it as well. By doing so it causes smaller and smaller pulses of LH to be produced by your pituitary so those using Estradiol to lower their T will show LOWER LH rather than super high LH.
Whether having your brain struggle to produce more and more LH is a bad thing or not ought to be of interest to researchers. The elevated LH also acts on your adrenals and this unnatural excess could cause adrenal overproduction of steroids, among the many other bad effects of Spiro. Every one who is undergoing HRT should have their LH monitored by any thoughtul endocrinologist
A NOTE: As we expected: There may be the kind of exaggerated adrenal production of estrone (from DHEA in this case) via adrenal activation by the high LH levels produced by high Spiro Intake
In post menopausal women, the adrenal glands become the primary source of estrogens and that results in estrone rather than estradiol being produced by the adrenal pathway. This is why postmenopausal women show higher levels of estrone and low estradiol, if any.
Here is the link for inquiring minds:
The adrenal gland may be a target of LH action in postmenopausal women.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16728548
OBJECTIVE:
LH receptor expression and function have been demonstrated in the human adrenal cortex, but their involvement in normal adrenalfunction remains elusive.
Because cortisol levels have been reported to be higher in postmenopausal women than in age-matched men, the aim of the present study was to investigate a possible association of adrenal function with the elevated LH levels in postmenopausal women.
.
CONCLUSIONS:
These results indicate that adrenal cortisol and DHEA-S production may be stimulated by the highly elevated postmenopausal levels of LH; the physiological significance of this association and plausible contribution to the metabolic syndrome observed after the menopause remain to be evaluated.
And, yes, what likely happens to the DHEA along the hormonal flow chart pathways that we have posted regularly is that much of the DHEA can get converted to Estrone.
Quote from: KayXo on June 18, 2014, 12:02:52 PM
Not really. Very high doses of oral P need to be taken to reduce testis' production of androgens OR high enough non-orally and post-op, it really does nothing. To effectively inhibit T to DHT formation, super high doses need to be taken which is impossible in our case.
I was just quoting what my endo said. I swore he gave me the literature back in January, but I lost it. I could possibly ask for it again in July. As for oral, no clue. I take pellets which last 3-4 mo. 1 pellet and testis' production dropped to almost zero in three days.
Also Microgest is the generic form of Prometrium for those worried about cost.
If Progesterone via injection requires injection once per day I think my needle phobia would want me to skip that idea...
Orally I've seen the pills are like liquid filled soft capsules? Are there any tablets of the same Prometrium (or comparable bio-identical progesterone) that can be taken sublingually like estradiol tablets can?
Ok, so let me get this straight. Whenever I read something like spiro and finasteride are so bad for you, I become a bit skeptical. Sure there is the possibility of side effects, but isn't that the same for all long term medicine use? I mean, a person taking a specific anti-psychotic would most definitely be prone to the side effects, but the benefits gained far outweigh the risk. I think spiro and finasteride are well known enough to prove their usefullness in transition. Whereas, progesterins are less well known and less studied so all the longterm risks still remain relatively unknown. Please, PLEASE, correct me if I'm wrong. A med or pharm student I am not, and I'm really just trying to understand.
The only experience I can offer is being on spiro and finasteride, no e yet. So far I have noticed no serious side effects, but of course that doesn't mean something couldn't be happening internally I don't know about. I guess if I'm taking this pills for the long haul, the goal should be to minimize side effects and maximize effectiveness.
My trans specialized endo swears by these two and qualms my worries by reassuring me that's the whole purpose of monitoring blood. He said of course there are side effects, but with proper monitoring I shouldn't worry so much.
The problem isn't that there are side effects (spironolactone was very bad on me but I understand many tolerate it well) the problem is lots of endos prescribe them because that is what they have always done and there are medications that may have fewer side effects.
What I mean is, I switched off of spiro because it made me very dizzy and I was fainting upon standing too soon... This is on a really low dose. Had I not done a fair bit of research I wouldn't even know that there were alternatives much less got on one. Though I did take it one step further and relegated the doctors to monitoring, so I choose all of my medication now, and only consult rather than ask permission.
I drive an 80k lbs vehicle on a regular basis I can't afford anything that is going to make me dizzy, lives would be at risk. Especially when a doctor knows this and knows spiro reduces blood pressure which can make you dizzy or even faint.
If spiro is the choice with the least side effects for that specific person then great but, I take issue with endos who seem to think this is one size fits all.
I drive as well! The way you put it though makes sense. Sometimes its easy to forget we're all different and one may react differently to the same exact thing. It should be a requirement for all endos to know this these days.
Sometimes, information is pounded into our heads so hard that it's hard to accept that the established beliefs could be wrong. What if I told you there was no link between saturated fats and heart disease? Sounds, "crazy", huh????
June 13, 2014
New study finds no link between saturated fat and heart disease
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-06-link-saturated-fat-heart-disease.html#ajTabs
After reviewing nearly 80 studies involving more than half a million people, researchers at Cambridge University found that saturated fat doesn't cause heart disease.
The study, published in the journal Annals of Internal Medicine, also shows that 'good' fats do not lower the risk of heart attack.
So is it time to stop demonising fat?
"It's not saturated fat we should worry about," says Dr Rajiv Chowdhury, lead author of the study. "It's the high-carb or sugary diet that should be the focus of dietary guidelines."
Carbs and sugar contain more artery-clogging particles than saturated and non-saturated fat, and the researchers suggest these should be the focus of new dietary guidelines.
In October 2013, cardiologist Aseem Malhotra, who works at Croydon University Hospital in London, published a report in the British Medical Journal saying there's no link between saturated fat intake and cardiovascular risk. "Indeed, recent prospective cohort studies have not supported any significant association between saturated fat intake and cardiovascular risk. Instead, saturated fat has been found to be protective."
Malhotra believes that our 'fat obsession' comes from "The Seven Countries Study", which started in the late 1950s and was published in 1970. It was the first study to investigate the correlation between diet, lifestyle and heart disease in different countries, and it established that saturated and trans fats intake was associated with higher mortality rates. It was also the first one to high-light the many benefits of the Mediterranean diet.
The results of Chowdhury and Malhotra's studies, however, shouldn't be an excuse gorge butter and cake. "It would be unfortunate if these results were interpreted to suggest that people can go back to eating butter and cheese with abandon," said Alice H. Lichtestein, a nutritional biochemist at Tufts University, to The New York Times.
Over the past few years we've been advised to cut fat intake to 30% of total energy and saturated fat to less than 10%, and we should stick to those guidelines until new ones are published.
Quote from: AnnaCannibal on June 18, 2014, 06:38:29 PM
Ok, so let me get this straight. Whenever I read something like spiro and finasteride are so bad for you, I become a bit skeptical. Sure there is the possibility of side effects, but isn't that the same for all long term medicine use? I mean, a person taking a specific anti-psychotic would most definitely be prone to the side effects, but the benefits gained far outweigh the risk. I think spiro and finasteride are well known enough to prove their usefullness in transition. Whereas, progesterins are less well known and less studied so all the longterm risks still remain relatively unknown. Please, PLEASE, correct me if I'm wrong. A med or pharm student I am not, and I'm really just trying to understand.
The only experience I can offer is being on spiro and finasteride, no e yet. So far I have noticed no serious side effects, but of course that doesn't mean something couldn't be happening internally I don't know about. I guess if I'm taking this pills for the long haul, the goal should be to minimize side effects and maximize effectiveness.
My trans specialized endo swears by these two and qualms my worries by reassuring me that's the whole purpose of monitoring blood. He said of course there are side effects, but with proper monitoring I shouldn't worry so much.
Ask your endo about this:
WHY PROGESTERONE ACTION in the BRAIN IS DAMAGED by FINASTERIDE (and Dutatsteride probably even more)
Here new research unsurprisingly reveals how males using even modest doses of finasteride for male pattern hair loss, in an article entitled,
Patients treated for male pattern hair with finasteride show, after discontinuation of the drug, altered levels of neuroactive steroids in cerebrospinal fluid and plasma.
At the examination, post-finasteride patients referred muscular stiffness, cramps, tremors and CHRONIC FATIGUE in the ABSENCE OF CLINCIAL evidence of any muscular disorder or strength reduction.
Severity of the ANXIOUS/DEPRESSIVE SYMPTOMS were quite variable in their frequency, overall all the subjects had a fairly complex and constant neuropsychiatric pattern.
Assessment of neuroactive steroid levels in CSF show a DECREASE of PROG and its metabolites, dihydroprogesterone (DHP) and tetrahydroprogesterone (THP), associated to an increase of its Precursor PREGNENOLONE (PREG)
If you've been following our various posts here on our page you know the following to be true"
(1) PREGNENOLONE is "the mother hormone" and within the brain this neurosteriod is converted to a great extent to Progesterone
(2)That FINASTERIDE and Dutasteride which are both alpha-reductase inhibitors NOT ONLY PREVENT TESTOSTERONE from being converted to DHT but ALSO PREVENT PROGESTERONE from being converted to ALLOPREGNANOLONE
(3) This conversion process of Progesterone to ALLOPREGNANOLONE within the brain is essentially to the REGULATION OF ANXIETY and depression and PREVENTION of those symptoms
(4) When the PROGESTERONE METABOLISM/CONVERSION IS BLOCKED YOU WOULD EXPECT SUCH SYMPTOMS and you would expect a BUILDUP of Pregnenolone as the conversion process is backed up by the inhibition of the enzymes processing Progesterone.
(5) What we haven't previously known is that EVEN AFTER DISCONTINUATION of the Finasteride there is a LINGERING IMBALANCE of altered levels of neurosteroid in cerebrospinal fluid and plasma. .
(6) The researchers state, "The present observations show that altered levels of neuroactive steroids, associated to depression symptoms, are present in androgenic alopecia patients even after discontinuation of the finasteride treatment.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24717976
If Progesterone via injection requires injection once per day I think my needle phobia would want me to skip that idea...
Orally I've seen the pills are like liquid filled soft capsules? Are there any tablets of the same Prometrium (or comparable bio-identical progesterone) that can be taken sublingually like estradiol tablets can?
Quote from: teeg on June 18, 2014, 08:22:11 PM
If Progesterone via injection requires injection once per day I think my needle phobia would want me to skip that idea...
Orally I've seen the pills are like liquid filled soft capsules? Are there any tablets of the same Prometrium (or comparable bio-identical progesterone) that can be taken sublingually like estradiol tablets can?
I take a cycle of topical micronized progesterone gel. Mah bewbs thank me.
ANXIETY/PANIC and ESTROGEN/PROGESTERONE BALANCE
The use of finasteride and dutasteride as part of androgen suppression in GG women and TG women and in men who seek cures for baldness is associated with interference in the action of the crucial alpha-reductase enzyme that not only controls DHT production but also conversion of Progesterone to Allopregnanolone.
It is not surprising that many men who try one of the two DHT blockers also report experiences of anxiety and panic attacks and nightmares, as well. See this article:
http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/hmbci.2010.1.issue-2/hmbci.2010.010/hmbci.2010.010.xml
In this recent study done with rats in whom the progesterone levels are measured suggests that emotionally volatililty and panic attacks during HRT in TG women as well as during phases of hormonal fluctuation in GG women are due to oscillations in the Estrogen/Progesterone balance....and to a kind of 'withdrawal" effect when the Progesterone gets too low in relation to Estrogen levels.
SEX DETERMINANTS OF EXPERIMENTAL PANIC ATTACKS
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763414000591
Here's what the researchers state:
"Panic disorder is twice a common in women than in men.
In women, susceptibility to PANIC INCREASES during the late luteal (premenstrual) phase of the menstrual cycle,WHEN PROGESTERONE SECRETION IS IN RAPID DECLINE.
This article considers the evidence for the midbrain periaqueductal grey (PAG) as a locus for panic and for the use of PAG stimulation as an animal model of panic in both sexes.
We show in females how a rapid FALL IN PROGESTERONE secretion, such as occurs during the late dioestrus phase of the ovarian cycle in rats (similar to the late luteal phase in women), triggers a NEURONAL WITHDRAWAL response during which the excitability of the midbrain panic circuitry increases as a result of upregulation of extrasynaptic GABAA receptors on inhibitory interneurones in the PAG.
The withdrawal effect is due not to the native hormone but to its neuroactive metabolite allopregnanolone.
Differences in the kinetics of ALLOPREGNANOLONE metabolism may contribute to individual differences in susceptibility to PANIC iIN WOMEN."
And we at the Gender Research Group must add that those differences in Allopregnanolone also make all the different in the world in Transgender Transitioning and Emotional Balance.
Quote from: Jill F on June 18, 2014, 08:43:14 PM
I take a cycle of topical micronized progesterone gel. Mah bewbs thank me.
Wiley Protocol?
Quote from: Jill F on June 18, 2014, 08:43:14 PM
I take a cycle of topical micronized progesterone gel. Mah bewbs thank me.
Cycling progesterone is uncertain to me. I'm unsure if it's the progesterone by itself, or the cycling of the progesterone that creates the positive effects people report.
But also, I'm wondering about the actual FORM of the micronized progesterone. I'd prefer to take it sublingually, not orally, but I'm pretty sure it's not possible to take liquid filled soft capsules suglingually like you can estradiol tablets?
Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 07:41:12 PM
(6) The researchers state, "The present observations show that altered levels of neuroactive steroids, associated to depression symptoms, are present in androgenic alopecia patients even after discontinuation of the finasteride treatment.
Hi Jessica,
Thanks for posting this. So just to be clear, I took finasteride for a couple years about 10 years ago, so I may still be suffering these effects? How would you know if this problem lingers or even if I have the problem? Would taking micronized progesterone help solve this if I did have the problem or would it not be metabolized properly anyway?
Thanks,
Paige :)
It's hard to say how long the effect lasts but "the results demonstrate is that the diminiution of progesterone by the finasteride (and also by dutasteride) will lead to a lowering of allopregnanolone which controls anxiety (in a characteristic U shaped curve...so that either too much or too little allopregnanolone will cause you to suffer). It has come to my attention that various members of other non research oriented groups have advised to keep pumping in progesterone when you are taking finasteride. This may not be the smartest thing in the world to do, if you don't have a clear idea of the enzymatic balance. It may well result in an excess of progesterone which remains unprocessed to finasteride...and could, in part be responsible for some of the bad responses to progesterone i.e., when the balance between progesterone and its alpha-reductase enzymes is out of whack...simply putting in larger quantities of progesterone and finasteride is likely to not be too smart." Rachel Francon- Gender Research for All Genders
Quote from: teeg on June 18, 2014, 10:05:43 PM
Cycling progesterone is uncertain to me. I'm unsure if it's the progesterone by itself, or the cycling of the progesterone that creates the positive effects people report.
But also, I'm wondering about the actual FORM of the micronized progesterone. I'd prefer to take it sublingually, not orally, but I'm pretty sure it's not possible to take liquid filled soft capsules suglingually like you can estradiol tablets?
It's not suggested to take sublingually and made to swallow. A good alternative would be to have doc prescribe it in a cream from a compounding pharmacy or find a Wiley Protocol provider. Their stuff is good but a little on the expensive side. Wiley highly advocates cycling.
I am a bit skeptical because I have been taking dutasteride for a while now and I seem to have no ill effect at all. In fact I am a pretty chill person without much panic or stress compared to lots of other transwomen (after all transitsion is a stressful thing).
From what those posts seem to say the action of blocking the 5ar itself causes these massive changes but it can't be all that simple because I felt no change while I once had a friend describe finasteride as suicide in pill form due to how depressed it made her... But upon stopping it she got better too.
I am quite self aware and if anything my general mood has increased since dutasteride.
Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 04:05:32 PM
Injection is always preferable. You will maintain higher and more stable level.
As stated earlier, the problem with injectable progesterone is its short half-life so you would have to inject daily, a pain in the ass LITERALLY!
I think that all this stuff really does vary from person to person. I heard great things about bicalutamide, but when I tried it for three months, it did nothing to suppress my testosterone and I got bad anxiety attacks. And since switching back to spiro, I'm getting even less of the side-effects than before. I think it might be because I changed my pill schedule. I also got off the provera because of all the negative comments about it, and because I felt like it wasn't doing anything (didn't even have any negative effects). But now I realize it had a positive impact on my sex-drive and cycle, which I had mistakenly attributed to the estradiol and low T-levels. I was getting regular periods on it, and while some may not see that as a good thing, it made me feel 'normal'. So I might actually go back on that if I can't get on the prometrium again.
Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 04:06:03 PM
Spiro works to suppress Testosterone differently than Estradiol does. Spiro intercepts the brain's signalling hormone LH which triggers the testes to produce testosterone by disabling aldosterone production in the testicles.
Just to clarify...
I think you mean to say that Spiro reduces LH (luteinizing hormone) production by the pituitary gland but so does Estradiol, with the end result being that testicles produce much less androgens, not aldosterone which is a mineralocorticoid produced by the adrenal glands and which increases sodium retention and blood pressure which Spiro inhibits as well. However, a study found that Spiro use actually increased LH production and perhaps, that action changes according to the dose used. Regardless, despite the increase in LH, testosterone and DHT (dihydrotestosterone, the strongest androgen) reduced after Spiro administration. Here is the study.
J Urol (Paris). 1981;87(9):635-8.
[The influence of spironolactone on the concentration of gonadotrophins and gonadal hormones in prostatic hypertrophy (author's transl)]."The authors examined the influence of spironolactone on the concentration of testosterone, 5 alpha - dihydrotestosterone (DHT), progesterone, oestradiol (E2), LH, and FSH in 47 patients with prostatic hypertrophy, aged from 60 to 80 years. The control group consisted of 58 men of the same age. Spironolactone was prescribed (...) for three months. There was a considerable fall in the concentration of testosterone and of DHT and, at the same time, an increase in the concentration of progesterone, E2 and LH. After treatment with spironolactone there was a decrease in the size of the prostate gland. Results obtained show that spironolactone is an effective drug in the treatment of prostatic hypertrophy, since it inhibits androgen metabolism."
Quote from: JessicaHAny wild and crazy excessive spiro long term use will lead to the pituiatry being 'fooled' and producing more and more LH....which doesn't prove effective....so your LH scores will be very high.
Whether LH is high or not, androgens are reduced, estradiol is increased on Spiro so in terms of hormonal effects, it's exactly what we are looking for. Estrogen will reduce LH anyways.
Quote from: JessicaHThe elevated LH also acts on your adrenals and this unnatural excess could cause adrenal overproduction of steroids, among the many other bad effects of Spiro.
Like I said, with the use of estrogen in combination with Spiro, LH will be low. As far as I know, LH does NOT affect the adrenals, only ACTH does and is also produced by the pituitary gland in response to mostly corticosteroids. Spiro actually interferes with the action of one corticosteroid (or mineralocorticoid), aldosterone, as explained above and this is why it reduces blood pressure, reduces water/salt retention, etc.
Quote from: JessicaHA NOTE: As we expected: There may be the kind of exaggerated adrenal production of estrone (from DHEA in this case) via adrenal activation by the high LH levels produced by high Spiro Intake
DHEA converts to androgens (testosterone, androstenedione, DHT) and estrogens (estradiol, estrone) in the body so increased DHEA will result in increased androgens and estrogens. How much of either will be produced is anyone's guess and will vary from one individual to another.
Quote from: JessicaHThe adrenal gland may be a target of LH action in postmenopausal women.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16728548
Interesting but this is still far from conclusive. A correlation between two variables does not imply a cause and effect relationship. We would have to investigate this further and control one variable to see if it affects the other and how so. Perhaps, in the case of post-menopausal women, the low estradiol levels not only cause increased LH production but also increased ACTH production which impacts directly the production of the adrenal gland.
Also, Spiro being an anti-mineracorticoid agent would actually block the effect of aldosterone at the pituitary gland and reduce negative feedback, increasing ACTH production and thus adrenal production. So, it could well be be that Spiro has an effect on the adrenal gland but this should also be checked further in studies showing a clear cause and effect relationship between the use of Spiro and impairment in either the pituitary gland or adrenal gland. One must be VERY careful before jumping to conclusions.
Quote from: JessicaHAnd, yes, what likely happens to the DHEA along the hormonal flow chart pathways that we have posted regularly is that much of the DHEA can get converted to Estrone.
Why not to testosterone or androstenedione or estradiol, etc? I don't think this can be predicted in advance. This probably varies from one person to another. Even if estrone would end up being the predominant hormone produced from DHEA, several transwomen take oral estrogen with levels of estrone being quite high, much higher than estradiol. So why not also condemn the use of oral estrogen?
Quote from: Jennifer.Alexandria on June 18, 2014, 05:18:19 PM
I was just quoting what my endo said. I swore he gave me the literature back in January, but I lost it. I could possibly ask for it again in July. As for oral, no clue. I take pellets which last 3-4 mo. 1 pellet and testis' production dropped to almost zero in three days.
In the case of pellets (non-oral), progesterone is more likely to cause some effect at the pituitary gland, reducing LH production just as estrogen does since progesterone bioavailability is much higher and thus levels would be higher making it more potent. Less LH, less androgen from testicles. :)
Quote from: teeg on June 18, 2014, 06:20:36 PM
Orally I've seen the pills are like liquid filled soft capsules? Are there any tablets of the same Prometrium (or comparable bio-identical progesterone) that can be taken sublingually like estradiol tablets can?
These pills can be taken sublingually but would take quite a long time to dissolve so very inconvenient. Or you could just squeeze out the content of the pill onto the area under your tongue for quicker effect. But this could end up being messy and there would be highs and lows which can have negative effects neurologically speaking. Some compounding pharmacies prepare subligual troches containing progesterone but like I said, I'm not too sure constant highs and lows are good for us mentally.
Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 07:26:54 AM
These pills can be taken sublingually but would take quite a long time to dissolve so very inconvenient.
I tuck my micronised progesterone capsule behind my molars and it sits there without any thought or inconvenience as it dissolves. Maybe its just the shape of my teeth but I just stick it in a forget it.
Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 09:04:21 PM
SEX DETERMINANTS OF EXPERIMENTAL PANIC ATTACKS
It would be interesting to hear how progesterone levels in postmenopausal women affect this. I am guessing, based on the fact that men with a lower P level that is constant and the references to withdrawal from P, that it is the reduction rather than low level which causes issues.
Quote from: AnnaCannibal on June 18, 2014, 06:38:29 PM
Sure there is the possibility of side effects, but isn't that the same for all long term medicine use
Some side-effects are worse and greater with some medicines versus others. In the case of bio-identical progesterone and estrogen, the side-effects are much reduced due to the fact that these are exactly what our bodies produce and if taken non-orally, these side-effects reduce even more. If you read the leaflet that comes with Prometrium or that is available online, you will notice that they say
http://www.merck.ca/assets/en/pdf/products/Prometrium-PM_E.pdf
"OVERDOSAGE
Symptoms
The toxicity of progesterone is very low. Symptoms that may occur are: nausea, vomiting,
somnolence and dizziness."
So, really, at least in my opinion, estradiol and progesterone aren't medicine. They're more like a copy of what our bodies produce manufactured in the form of a pill, gel, etc. All medicines aren't the same.
Quote from: AnnaCannibalWhereas, progesterins are less well known and less studied so all the longterm risks still remain relatively unknown.
Not true. There have been hundreds, thousands of studies on progestins, progesterone. They have been extensively studied. Women's bodies have been producing progesterone in significant amounts for as long as our species exists, thus millions of years. This, I would say, is long-term enough. Studies have been done on the effect of progesterone and other progestins in humans, animals, etc.
Quote from: AnnaCannibalThe only experience I can offer is being on spiro and finasteride
Finasteride side-effects are usually exactly those side-effects we seek like a reduction in erections or perhaps a reduction in libido. It can also reduce allopregnanolone levels which can increase anxiety but so far, have come across very little evidence pointing to this. Spiro can reduce blood pressure too much or cause an imbalance in electrolytes leading to things like leg cramps, heart palpitations, dizziness, dehydration, tiredness. But, if monitored, if dose is gradually increased and if you drink enough water and eat salty when you crave it, you should be ok. I personally don't like that drug though very much.
Quote from: Hikari on June 18, 2014, 06:55:25 PM
What I mean is, I switched off of spiro because it made me very dizzy
Progesterone can do that too, especially if taken orally, with food! But, the effect is usually temporary, no more than 30-45 minutes. I'm experiencing this effect as we speak!!! LOL.
Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 07:30:15 PM
Sometimes, information is pounded into our heads so hard that it's hard to accept that the established beliefs could be wrong. What if I told you there was no link between saturated fats and heart disease? Sounds, "crazy", huh????
Very true! There seems to be no link indeed. I eat saturated fats regularly. ;D They seem to actually be quite beneficial to our health contrary to popular belief.
The Cholesterol Myths by Uffe Ravnskov
http://www.charlescoty.com/user/The%20Cholesterol%20Myths%20by%20Uffe%20Ravnskov.pdf
http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm
http://www.ravnskov.nu/myth9.htm
References
http://www.ravnskov.nu/weblit.htm#002
Good Calories, Bad Calories Gary Taubes, 2007 (FULL BOOK!) If it doesn't work the first time, try again by clicking to download, be patient, it might take a few minutes
http://ebookbrowsee.net/good-calories-bad-calories-gary-taubes-pdf-d411337273
Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 07:41:12 PM
(2)That FINASTERIDE and Dutasteride which are both alpha-reductase inhibitors NOT ONLY PREVENT TESTOSTERONE from being converted to DHT but ALSO PREVENT PROGESTERONE from being converted to ALLOPREGNANOLONE
More specifically, prevents conversion of progesterone to 5-alpha dihydroprogesterone which is the precursor to allopregnanolone responsible for combating anxiety and making us feel relaxed.
http://img.springerimages.com/Images/Springer/PUB=Springer-Verlag-Berlin-Heidelberg/JOU=00213/VOL=2006.186/ISU=3/ART=2005_185/MediaObjects/WATER_213_2005_185_Fig1_HTML.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopregnanolone
" Anxiety and depression are common side effects of 5α-reductase inhibitors such as finasteride and dutasteride, and they are believed to be caused, in part, by the prevention of the endogenous production of allopregnanolone."
Interestingly, if you take finasteride/dutasteride and progesterone, sedative effects commonly associated with progesterone (due to allopregnanolone) are significantly reduced or eliminated.
Quote from: JessicaH(4) When the PROGESTERONE METABOLISM/CONVERSION IS BLOCKED YOU WOULD EXPECT SUCH SYMPTOMS and you would expect a BUILDUP of Pregnenolone as the conversion process is backed up by the inhibition of the enzymes processing Progesterone.
Actually, that doesn't make sense because progesterone cannot be converted back to pregnenolone.
http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/toxchick/images/S/steroidogenesis.gif. Rather, you should expect increased progesterone concentrations and perhaps increased concentrations of all the other hormones immediately coming after progesterone like deoxycorticosterone (increases water retention), 17-hydroxy progesterone and other metabolites not shown that are probably much less active and potent.
Quote from: JessicaHhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24717976
It's odd that pregnenolone, 3 alpha diol and 3 beta diol would increase and that P (progesterone) would reduce since if anything inhibiting 5 alpha reductase should increase progesterone levels, decrease 3 alpha and beta diol and not affect pregnenolone at all. I checked all the pathways. I need to read the entire study to clarify this matter.
Quote from: Jill F on June 18, 2014, 08:43:14 PM
I take a cycle of topical micronized progesterone gel. Mah bewbs thank me.
Have you checked your progesterone levels? This is prepared by a compounding pharmacy, right? Where do you apply it? Do you rotate site of application? Do you notice any tiredness, drowsiness from it? What about bloating? I think you mentioned you felt sometimes irritable on it, right?
Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 09:04:21 PM
It is not surprising that many men who try one of the two DHT blockers also report experiences of anxiety and panic attacks and nightmares, as well. See this article:
http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/hmbci.2010.1.issue-2/hmbci.2010.010/hmbci.2010.010.xml
Link does not work. :(
Quote from: JessicaHhttp://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763414000591
Very interesting indeed! I was actually very much thinking about this very issue in recent days, suggesting that negative symptoms sometimes associated with the use of progesterone may have more to do with the drop in the allopregnanolonone levels due to short half-life than progesterone so that it would be better to administer progesterone in such a way as to have more steady levels of progesterone and hence allopregnanolone. But, I've come across negative feedback even in women who take progesterone three to four times daily and take it non-orally where levels are more steady. So, I'm really not sure if this holds true. Perhaps, in those women, levels fluctuate much more.
Quote from: JessicaHAnd we at the Gender Research Group must add that those differences in Allopregnanolone also make all the different in the world in Transgender Transitioning and Emotional Balance.
Is this your statement or a quote from an article? Can you elaborate? Have they measured allopregnanolone levels in transgendered women and found out how they relate to their well-being?
Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 09:04:56 PM
Wiley Protocol?
http://www.thewileyprotocol.com/about-the-wiley-protocolr.html
Quote from: teeg on June 18, 2014, 10:05:43 PM
Cycling progesterone is uncertain to me. I'm unsure if it's the progesterone by itself, or the cycling of the progesterone that creates the positive effects people report.
It seems to me that taking progesterone cyclically would lead to PMS withdrawal symptoms from the drop in progesterone/allopregnanolone levels and/or from the anti-estrogenic effect of progesterone and would increase cell apotopsis and proliferation rate, potentially increasing the risk of cancer.
Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 08:45:31 AM
Have you checked your progesterone levels? This is prepared by a compounding pharmacy, right? Where do you apply it? Do you rotate site of application? Do you notice any tiredness, drowsiness from it? What about bloating? I think you mentioned you felt sometimes irritable on it, right?
Never checked the levels. I hear it's a pretty short half-life anyway and I cycle off and on. Actually I don't give a flying crap as long as it goes right to my rack, which needs all the help it can get. Tests aren't cheap, and I figure numbers are irrelevant at this point since my nuts are not much longer for this world.
I apply the P to the inside of the forearms. I don't get noticeably tired nor drowsy from it, but I usually take it in the morning and have coffee and dutasteride at about the same time. I tried it before bed, but I didn't notice a difference. I do bloat a bit sometimes though. Irritable sometimes at the end of the cycle, but the last cycle I was pretty chill the whole time. I just rack the effects up (get it?) to the endo voodoo and don't try to overthink it. Right now I'm just happy that my f***ing balls get tossed in a waste bin next month and all I will ever have to take is E and P from now on. Actually I'm thinking of getting a E pellet implant so I don't have to remember to take anything but the P cycle. I space on taking E sometimes when my schedule gets interrupted, and if I forget two days in a row, you don't want the Jill monster anywhere near you. >:-)
Quote from: Paige on June 18, 2014, 10:53:22 PM
Hi Jessica,
Thanks for posting this. So just to be clear, I took finasteride for a couple years about 10 years ago, so I may still be suffering these effects? How would you know if this problem lingers or even if I have the problem? Would taking micronized progesterone help solve this if I did have the problem or would it not be metabolized properly anyway?
Thanks,
Paige :)
Are you depressed or anxious? Do you have any of the other symptoms listed like muscle stiffness, tremors, etc? If not, then I don't see a problem. Perhaps, if you tried progesterone after discussing this with your doctor, you would know if it was beneficial for you. Paige, just a word of advice, don't take everything we say here as gospel...do your own research, use your common sense and talk to other girls, their experiences as well as doctors treating transgender girls. Don't just blindly accept what anyone (including me) says. ;)
Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 11:11:50 PM
It's hard to say how long the effect lasts but "the results demonstrate is that the diminiution of progesterone by the finasteride (and also by dutasteride) will lead to a lowering of allopregnanolone which controls anxiety (in a characteristic U shaped curve...so that either too much or too little allopregnanolone will cause you to suffer).
According to this study...
Psychopharmacology (2006) 187:209–221
Allopregnanolone concentration and mood—a bimodal association
in postmenopausal women treated with oral progesterone
"During progesterone treatment, women had significantly
higher negative mood scores when allopregnanolone
serum concentration was in the range of 1.5–2 nmol/
l compared to lower and higher concentrations."
"Mood effects during progesterone treatment
seem to be related to allopregnanolone concentration, and a
bimodal association between allopregnanolone and adverse
mood is evident."
If one looks at this study more in depth (I have the entire study), one notices that very low levels of alloP and higher levels of alloP are associated with positive mood and less negative mood whereas in the middle is where it gets problematic and the reason I think this happens is because in those women, levels drop and there is withdrawal from higher alloP whereas in those women with higher alloP, levels remain high enough so that there are no withdrawal symptoms and finally in those women where levels are very low, levels are too low to have any significant effect on mood.
Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 11:15:57 PM
It's not suggested to take sublingually and made to swallow. A good alternative would be to have doc prescribe it in a cream from a compounding pharmacy or find a Wiley Protocol provider. Their stuff is good but a little on the expensive side. Wiley highly advocates cycling.
I'm still skeptical about whether cream really does a good job at delivering enough progesterone into the blood when applied to the skin. Mucosal tissue would perhaps be more effective but would levels fluctuate much in the same way as sublingual and if they did, that wouldn't be very good if we want steadier levels.
As far as cycling goes, I have yet to see a study that shows that cycling hormones is better than taking them continuously and if anything, cycling is associated with many negatives that I mentioned several times before and is not natural.
This claim from http://www.thewileyprotocol.com/press/press-releases/162.html
"A combined cyclic regiment with monthly bleeding creates a lower cardiovascular risk for women than continuous-combined estrogen/ progesterone therapy, which does not cause a menstrual bleed." is misleading as the progestogens that were used were ...from the actual study
http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/21/2660.full
"type of progestagen: Norethisterone acetate (NETA), Medroxyprogesterone (MPA), Levonorgestrel (Lng), Cyproterone acetate (CPA);" progestogens known to increase cardiovascular risk as opposed to bio-identical progesterone which was not reviewed in this study.
Also the estrogen used was "(g) type of oestrogen: conjugated equine oestrogen, non-conjugated oestrogen;" only sometimes bio-identical.
So, this study did not review the effects of continuous bio-identical estradiol/progesterone versus cyclical bio-identical estradiol/progesterone. Cyclical is obviously better when you use estrogens and progestins that are potentially harmful to one's health because you are less exposed to them!
This is why I urge everyone to not just accept claims and make conclusions but to carefully examine the evidence at hand and then find out for yourself. ;)
Quote from: Hikari on June 19, 2014, 05:07:22 AM
I am a bit skeptical because I have been taking dutasteride for a while now and I seem to have no ill effect at all. In fact I am a pretty chill person without much panic or stress compared to lots of other transwomen (after all transitsion is a stressful thing).
From what those posts seem to say the action of blocking the 5ar itself causes these massive changes but it can't be all that simple because I felt no change while I once had a friend describe finasteride as suicide in pill form due to how depressed it made her... But upon stopping it she got better too.
I am quite self aware and if anything my general mood has increased since dutasteride.
Different people react differently. We metabolize drugs differently, we have lower or higher sensitivity. Genetics, etc.
Being skeptical is healthy. :)
Quote from: Ashey on June 19, 2014, 07:12:57 AM
I heard great things about bicalutamide, but when I tried it for three months, it did nothing to suppress my testosterone
Bicalutamide does not suppress testosterone, it only blocks it except in the brain. Testosterone actually increases in response to blocking it. Sex drive is maintained, so are spontaneous erections and even I think, sperm production. No use in measuring testosterone levels while on it. They won't be lower, they'll be higher but so will estradiol levels since testosterone naturally converts to estradiol in the body. Bicalutamide nonetheless strongly blocks the action of testosterone and other androgens so that the end result is less androgenization and increased feminization. Tests cannot measure the extent to which androgen is blocked. You will simply feel it and notice it with time.
Quote from: Asheyand I got bad anxiety attacks.
Anxiety can also be caused by T inhibition (due to bicalutamide) and not enough estrogen to replace it.
Quote from: AsheyAnd since switching back to spiro, I'm getting even less of the side-effects than before.
Spiro is a much less potent (effective) anti-androgen than bicalutamide so that your T may have been stronger on it causing you to feel better. More T, less anxiety...perhaps.
Quote from: AsheyI also got off the provera
Provera is known to cause anxiety/depression in some, sometimes quite strong. Perhaps, this was the culprit and not bicalutamide.
Quote from: AsheyBut now I realize it had a positive impact on my sex-drive
Provera is mildly androgenic so this might be the reason why. Also, some women report increased sex drive/libido on bio-identical progesterone as well.
Quote from: Ashey on June 19, 2014, 07:12:57 AM
I was getting regular periods on it
You have periods?
Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on June 19, 2014, 07:34:48 AM
I tuck my micronised progesterone capsule behind my molars and it sits there without any thought or inconvenience as it dissolves. Maybe its just the shape of my teeth but I just stick it in a forget it.
Still impractical in my opinion and anyways, you probably end up swallowing some. Easier to just swallow and probably not much difference in effectiveness. Progesterone does not appear to harm liver and does not affect coagulation.
Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on June 19, 2014, 07:34:48 AM
I am guessing, based on the fact that men with a lower P level that is constant and the references to withdrawal from P, that it is the reduction rather than low level which causes issues.
Exactly my thought too!
Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 09:12:53 AM
Are you depressed or anxious? Do you have any of the other symptoms listed like muscle stiffness, tremors, etc? If not, then I don't see a problem. Perhaps, if you tried progesterone after discussing this with your doctor, you would know if it was beneficial for you. Paige, just a word of advice, don't take everything we say here as gospel...do your own research, use your common sense and talk to other girls, their experiences as well as doctors treating transgender girls. Don't just blindly accept what anyone (including me) says. ;)
Hi KayXo,
I don't have any muscle stiffness out of the normal and no tremors. Well moderately depressed that I'm not able to transition, and I can't see a way to change that in my current circumstances. Anxious, I have always had some of that, but it's better than when I was younger. You're probably right I don't have a problem with this. I was just curious because I had never heard of this side effect before.
Thanks so much for the advice.
Take care,
Paige :)
Quote from: Jill F on June 19, 2014, 09:12:36 AM
Never checked the levels.
Only problem is, say, it doesn't really do anything in terms of blood levels, raise them significantly and you pay for the cream for nothing, what then? Money thrown out the window! But, as you stated, it seems to have an effect, affecting breasts and mood. So, hopefully, as it seems to be the case, it's money well spent. :)
Don't know if I ever posted this here, getting so I do repeats, anyway here goes!
Essential Hormones for Breast Development
Last Updated: May 04, 2011 | By Louise Tremblay
The breasts are hormonally regulated tissues that respond to a number of hormones circulating within the body. The developmental cycle of the breasts begins in puberty, and extends to changes during pregnancy. According to the Ohio State University Medical Center (OSUMC), the breasts do not fully mature until a woman has produced milk. During puberty, the breasts undergo periods of cell proliferation and division, which causes the breasts to enlarge and develop.
Estrogen is the hormone that helps control breast cell proliferation and division. According to OSUMC, breast development during puberty begins after the ovaries start to secrete estrogen. This accumulates fat within the connective tissue of the breasts, causing the breasts to enlarge.
Estrogen is also released during the first half of the menstrual cycle, which enlarges the breast glands. Once estrogen levels decrease following ovulation, the breast returns to its normal state.
Progesterone is a steroid hormone that works together with estrogen to regulate breast development. According to the University of Virginia Health System, progesterone levels are low during the first half of the menstrual cycle, but contribute to breast development during the second half of the cycle, once estrogen levels are lowered.
Progesterone contributes to development of the breast by signaling for the formation of milk glands. Estrogen first induces enlargement of tissues within the breast, and progesterone ensures these tissues develop proper functioning within the breast to aid in breast development.
As a girl approaches adolescence, the first outward signs of breast development begin to appear. When the ovaries start to secrete estrogen, fat in the connective tissue begins to accumulate causing the breasts to enlarge. The duct system also begins to grow. Usually the onset of these breast changes is also accompanied by the appearance of pubic hair and hair under the arms.
Once ovulation and menstruation begin, the maturing of the breasts begins with the formation of secretory glands at the end of the milk ducts. The breasts and duct system continue to grow and mature, with the development of many glands and lobules. The rate at which breasts grow varies greatly and is different for each young woman.
Female breast developmental stages
Stage 1 (Preadolescent) only the tip of the nipple is raised
Stage 2 Buds appear, breast and nipple raised, and the areola (dark area of skin that surrounds the nipple) enlarges
Stage 3 Breasts are slightly larger with glandular breast tissue present
Stage 4 The areola and nipple become raised and form a second mound above the rest of the breast
Stage 5 Mature adult breast; the breast becomes rounded and only the nipple is raised
Each month, women experience fluctuations in hormones that make up the normal menstrual cycle. Estrogen, which is produced by the ovaries in the first half of the menstrual cycle, stimulates the growth of milk ducts in the breasts. The increasing level of estrogen leads to ovulation halfway through the cycle, and then the hormone progesterone takes over in the second half of the cycle, stimulating the formation of the milk glands. These hormones are believed to be responsible for the cyclical changes such as the swelling, pain, and tenderness that many women experience in their breasts just before menstruation.
During menstruation, many women also experience changes in breast texture, with breasts feeling particularly lumpy. These are the glands in the breast enlarging to prepare for a possible pregnancy. If pregnancy does not occur, the breasts return to normal size. Once menstruation begins, the cycle begins again.
Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 07:26:54 AM
These pills can be taken sublingually but would take quite a long time to dissolve so very inconvenient. Or you could just squeeze out the content of the pill onto the area under your tongue for quicker effect. But this could end up being messy and there would be highs and lows which can have negative effects neurologically speaking. Some compounding pharmacies prepare subligual troches containing progesterone but like I said, I'm not too sure constant highs and lows are good for us mentally.
I didn't think about with such a short half life that sublingual administration might cut that down even further...
But what about taking micronized progesterone orally? I thought I heard something about the way liver breaks down micronized stuff? Sorry for how vague that question is...
I guess orally right now is the most convenient and most common way of prescribing. Pellets could be better and provide steadier levels. But, they're expensive and maybe too steady could desensitize cells.
I take them orally for now, it's ok. I might try applying some on my inner labia to see how much of a difference it makes, if any. We'll see...
Sorry I can only read abstracts of most articles, because I can't constantly pay to read full ones. So lacking sample size and methods used. Also I know most of the articles I posted are a bit dated, but I wasn't finding what I was looking for in newer studies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1999
http://www.clinicaltherapeutics.com/article/S0149-2918%2800%2988267-3/abstract
My take: That E+P should be combined to best get synergistic benefits. States that synthetics carry harmful side effects, whereas micronized's main side effect is drowsiness (to which I can attest to when I took a gel capsule off my regular schedule). Then even states that it should be taken before bed to negate this (since you're already supposed to be sleepy).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2012
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/13697137.2012.669624
My take: That non-oral E should be combined with miconized P for neutral to beneficial gains. These gains are in terms of health risks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1997
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9116778
My take: Study shows that micronized progesterone was shown to risk patients with disease. However, I would like to point out that the women given the micronized progesterone were given a ridiculous amount of 900-1200mg/day! At this point I would wager that you are seeing a toxicity effect of a possible overdose. But again, I don't know what their blood levels were showing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1993
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8213224
My take: Micronized progesterone does not significantly effect the liver.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2006 - A Nice Article I found
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/apr2006_report_progesterone_01.htm
What I would like to point out is the chart on the right about the 28 menstrual cycle. This graph and the one that combines E+P+T should not be looked at just for the picture. There are actually three separate Y-axis to the single X-axis (this is important) in the textbook version of these graphs. Always make sure you're looking at a graph correctly as I could manipulate a picture for a graph however I wanted if I change the axis to perhaps one being in units of 200 vs 100 vs 1000 or a log or ln scale. Just thought I should mention that.
GtG to work now. I'm finding it so interesting how this thread has seemed to explode the past several days!
~Jenny
PS. There was a post while I was typing:
Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 11:58:50 AM
I guess orally right now is the most convenient and most common way of prescribing. Pellets could be better and provide steadier levels. But, they're expensive and maybe too steady could desensitize cells.
I take them orally for now, it's ok. I might try applying some on my inner labia to see how much of a difference it makes, if any. We'll see...
If getting pellets, do not go past 1 pellet, as from what my endo has seen the body has a tendency to try and reject the dosage. As for cost (yes they are expensive), though not sure how they compare to IM or TransDerm? (I get the max E+P combo and the operating cost along with the pellets costs me around $1.2-1.4k every 3 months).
Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 10:12:07 AM
Still impractical in my opinion and anyways, you probably end up swallowing some. Easier to just swallow and probably not much difference in effectiveness. Progesterone does not appear to harm liver and does not affect coagulation.
Really? I am aware that I will swallow a fair deal, but as I understood it, absorption once swallowed was highly reduced, though I can't say I recall exactly where I read that. The box says to take it in this way or vaginally which limits me to one option. I suppose there is the possibility of taking it as a suppository, but if you find leaving it in your mouth to be a faff.....
Two ways you can find out if taking it this way is more effective vs. orally
1) take it orally for 30-60 days and compare how you feel, bodily effects OR/AND
2) measure levels of P in the blood when taking P transbucally vs orally.
I'm still on the fence about whether rectally, it is effective or not. But, it seems to be. You could also, if doctor allows, try squeezing the contents of the capsule onto the opening of your rectum (i.e. anus) and apply it there. This area is mucosal and should allow for effective delivery and absorption. But, levels might peak and drop quite quickly this way.
Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 04:34:48 PM
Two ways you can find out if taking it this way is more effective vs. orally
1) take it orally for 30-60 days and compare how you feel, bodily effects OR/AND
2) measure levels of P in the blood when taking P transbucally vs orally.
I'm still on the fence about whether rectally, it is effective or not. But, it seems to be. You could also, if doctor allows, try squeezing the contents of the capsule onto the opening of your rectum (i.e. anus) and apply it there. This area is mucosal and should allow for effective delivery and absorption. But, levels might peak and drop quite quickly this way.
If there is too sharp of a spike in P, I believe T also spikes briefly. Sorry, only word of mouth from some Drs I know.
my t level is at 0.1ng/ml with no blocker :-)
It normally takes a couple of hours for the progesterone to fully dissappear from my mouth. I don't get the sudden tiredness or woozyness that others mention.
The NHS have changed their stance on progesterone?
Quote from: Jennifer.Alexandria on June 20, 2014, 12:09:14 AM
If there is too sharp of a spike in P, I believe T also spikes briefly. Sorry, only word of mouth from some Drs I know.
Hmmmm....not sure I buy into that unless you could eventually provide some proof of that with your doctor's cooperation, of course. :)
Progesterone does not appear to cause androgenization of any sort, if it did, imagine the repercussions on pregnant women whose levels are VERY high or on their female fetuses. I've not experienced masculinizing effects from taking progesterone, I've been on it for over 3 months . The same could be said of many other transwomen who I've read their feedback on it and who have taken it for quite a long time.
Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on June 20, 2014, 02:01:28 AM
It normally takes a couple of hours for the progesterone to fully dissappear from my mouth. I don't get the sudden tiredness or woozyness that others mention.
Do you get tired at all on progesterone? Taking it this way, what are actual, for sure, effects you have noticed? How long have you been taking it for? How many times do you take it daily?
Perhaps, it just absorbs very slowly into the body and could account for why you don't get those effects.
I use a topically applied progesterone oil for a week, beyond that I feel tired so one week a month is the cycle for me. When I raise my arms while looking in the mirror it does seem that my mammary gland mass has doubled in size since I started using it about a year ago. This cycled in conjunction with a full estrogen regimen seems to be making it happen. Prior to the first nine years on HRT the breast development was minimal like so many others experience, after nine years everything began to take off and once on progesterone the glandular mass became bigger as well.
Apart from being tired, do you notice any other negative symptoms? And in addition to breast growth, have you noticed any other positive improvements since last year?
Quote from: jname on June 20, 2014, 09:04:17 AM
The NHS have changed their stance on progesterone?
No they haven't. I am still prescribed by another practitioner as a bridging measure until the gic take over. They took over with what I was acquiring myself until the gic take over.
Quote from: KayXo on June 20, 2014, 10:35:48 AM
Do you get tired at all on progesterone? Taking it this way, what are actual, for sure, effects you have noticed? How long have you been taking it for? How many times do you take it daily?
Perhaps, it just absorbs very slowly into the body and could account for why you don't get those effects.
It's hard to tell as I usually feel tired. I work long long hours and have lots of responsibilities outside of work. Some days I work so much am in the house for four hours of sleep between shifts. That happens about three times a week. I haven't noticed the progesterone negatively affect my tiredness and in fact I cope with that better than I would have thought. Funny considering my low t level which was 0.1 nmol/l on the reading I got yesterday. I take it in the morning. Really I would like to have a split dose morning and night.
The effects that I have that I attribute to progesterone are noticeable difference in mood and focus and secondarily what I believe is above average breast growth and good shape.
Quote from: KayXo on June 20, 2014, 08:34:06 PM
Apart from being tired, do you notice any other negative symptoms? And in addition to breast growth, have you noticed any other positive improvements since last year?
I get an occasional leg cramp before getting out of bed in the morning that I'm wary of when I'm using it, but that may be attributable to the fact that older adults don't drink enough water and have coffee in the morning and sometimes during the day and maybe a few alcoholic beverages in the evenings which are all diuretics that will lead to dehydration and cramps. So if I wake up at night to go to the bathroom I make a point of drinking an 8 oz glass of water and the cramping problem seems to have diminished, though I think the progesterone somehow triggers it when I'm not well hydrated.
Progesterone appears to have diuretic properties, being about 4 x less potent, if I recally correctly than Spiro. So, this could be why...It exerts antimineralocorticoid properties.
Quote from: A on May 29, 2013, 10:36:43 PM
but I do know that the transdermic gel, on top of being very expensive and not covered by insurance, was not made in doses high enough for trans women, and would almost require me to cover my whole body with it to be equivalent to a standard pill dose.
This is utter nonsense. Please, don't confuse people talking rubbish I'm on gel myself.
I think it depends. For some, gel works just fine. For others, it's just not enough.
I just hit the gel myself for day 1 of my cycle. C'mon bewbs...
So far the magic is working. Slowly, mind you, but they do get more meaty, beaty, big and bouncy every time.
You will pry my progesterone from my cold, dead hand.
Quote from: Jill F on June 25, 2014, 10:34:00 AM
I just hit the gel myself for day 1 of my cycle. C'mon bewbs...
So far the magic is working. Slowly, mind you, but they do get more meaty, beaty, big and bouncy every time.
You will pry my progesterone from my cold, dead hand.
It is definitely a love/hate thing. I have been snapping at everyone and very short on patience/quick to irritate this cycle, and all that began on day 1 about 4 hours after taking the first pill. I'm still highly irritable today. My goal now is to get to the end of the week without getting fired for having a disagreeable attitude :laugh:
The boobs are responding nicely though :)
I just found out I need to get a new set of bras. I was out of them today and tried one from 3 years ago and they do not fit at all anymore. The ones from half a year ago still work so la la. So I am living proof now tha tit works. I had oral Estrogen only therapy for 14 years and started 8 Months ago on transdermal estradiol plus progesterone (gel and capsules). I have not gained circumference but a lot in fullness and shape. Oh how it could have been different in my late 20ies if I had known this before. Well, better late than never.
What I have tried to increase efficiency so far: Use the gel directly at the places it is supposed to act. Breasts and hairline; If you have trouble sleeping, taking the capsules orally will make you sleep well but less Progesterone is reaching the blood. If you want more progesterone to reach the blood and act, take the capsule sublingually or vaginally. I presently take 1 capsule sublingually in the evening as it makes me a bit sleepy and one capsule in the morning vaginally for the day. I have not yet experimented with cyclic progesterone. When I tried, I had PMS for 2 of the 4 days I skipped it.
Overall my mood has improved, I have no longer high blood pressure. My hand and feet are numb less often, my skin has improved, I have hair regowth. All of that mind you after 14 years of estrogen therapy.
Its unbelievable that there are still docs out there, gender specialists, who claim that it will not do anything.
Quote from: anjaq on June 26, 2014, 04:34:13 AM
taking the capsules orally will make you sleep well but less Progesterone is reaching the blood. If you want more progesterone to reach the blood and act, take the capsule sublingually or vaginally. I presently take 1 capsule sublingually in the evening as it makes me a bit sleepy and one capsule in the morning vaginally for the day.
I'm post-op since 2005. I take one capsule in the morning with my breakfast and one capsule at night at dinner. Taking it with food increases its bio-availability and I find that adding some grapefruit daily also increases it, since when I don't, I feel the effects much less...sedative effects kick in less and skin/hair is less soft.
It's interesting that you take it sublingually AND vaginally. Sublingually, isn't it inconvenient? How long does it take before it fully dissolves and you can just forget about it and swallow normally? And vaginally, does it really absorb for us since the lining of our vaginas is somewhat different but perhaps after some time, changes to to the same (i..e. mucosal)? Did you check your progesterone levels? This would be a good indication that progesterone works vaginally. I've taken them rectally in the past but I'm really not sure if it was effective and worked. I'd be perhaps interested in taking them vaginally as well because that way more P could get into my blood without having all the extra sedative effect and levels would be more stable during the day. But, I also do like the sedative effects as it helps me to sleep better at night and just relaxes me in general. So, perhaps take some orally and some vaginally. Sublingually, I'm not too interested in personally because levels tend to peak and fall too quickly that way and it seems impractical unless you can convince me otherwise. ;)
Well - sublingually is a bit of a mess. It tastes odd and I usually do it just before sleeping, so that I am not bugged too much by it. Some of it definitely also takes the oral route, thats why I do that in the evenings. I read that the peaks are happening at the beginning of a therapy , but that with time there are depots building up in the body that can buffer it a bit. Orally it also creates quite definitely some large peaks. Orally, only 1/4 or even less of the Progesterone is taken up as progesterone, that is why I take them sublingually - otherwise I would need to take 3 or more of them. The substance Progesterone is converted to in the liver, which makes it less effective orally, is Allopreganolone and it is what makes tired, but it also has some beneficial effects, so I do not mind some of it going down orally.
If it will work vaginally, I am not sure. I wanted to test it, but my Doc did not analyze it. They are kind of stupid. Usually they take what THEY think is important for them, and not what I write on a note and give them. I will try again though, taking them 2x vaginally a day only and then see what the levels are. I believe it does work though - maybe not as perfect as with a vagina that is completely mucous, but it clearly is sitting there for a long time then - and since it is also taken up through the skin in a cream, I think it will be resorbed eventually throughout the day. I wish, doctors would be more interested in this and get it analyzed. I considered actually buying some colorimetic kits myself and do a 4 hour interval testing of my own blood for E2, E1 and P4 under different regimens. Its not cheap (roughly $1400 for all three hormones), a bit of work and I need access to an instrument that I have to ask some friends at a fellow lab for, but it is doable, I believe ;)
Thanks for the information. Let us know when you have more definite info re:vaginal absorption. I could always add one at night vaginally and if I see a difference in how I feel or physically, I will know it works. ;) Sublingual seems still inconvenient to me. Taking progesterone with food, with grapefruit seems to do the trick. I can definitely see a difference! Would be interesting though to measure P levels in the hours that follow sublingual administration and say, 6 and 12 hours later compared to oral. I know progesterone is effective taken vaginally in genetic women, studies have confirmed it.
Yes - in women with an uterus, vaginal application is great. The question is, how much the uterus really plays a role in it - it seems to do so quite significantly. The benefit there is that it is a buffer, a storage. No studies were done on women without uterus, as they usually are not given progesterone (a grave mistake, I must say!). I am not much a fan of grapefruit, but in what way do you think it does help? Do you feel a more intense effect and how so (what do you feel?)
Quote from: anjaq on June 26, 2014, 10:41:04 AM
I am not much a fan of grapefruit, but in what way do you think it does help? Do you feel a more intense effect and how so (what do you feel?)
I can tell by a few things actually. I get more drowsy, "loopy" in the hours that follow intake of P which honestly, I love the sensation, totally mellow and happy!...my breasts become more prominent, ESPECIALLY the areola, larger, and just more "out there" and areola is SOOOOO soft to the touch...warmth all over body, hungry...it's honestly an amazing feeling for those few hours. :) and skin/hair also becomes softer within hours. In addition, I do notice, I think, less bloating...always was on the fence about whether P bloats me or not...but, at least in the first few hours, I think bloating decreases.
Without grapefruit, these effects are much less or nearly absent even.
Ceska Gynekol. 2003 Mar;68(2):117-21.
[Does grapefruit juice increase the bioavailability of orally administered sex steroids?]."Though grapefruit juice on average slightly increased serum levels of estradiol (E2) and progesterone, this increase reached statistical significance only for the E2 level 24 hours after application of tablets. The mean area under curve (AUC) of estradiol rose significantly to 117%. The even greater increase in the mean AUC of progesterone (to 125%) was not statistically significant because of marked individual variability of response."
"Our results suggest that grapefruit juice may increase bioavailability of orally administered estradiol and progesterone.
The response varies markedly between individuals."
makes me almost wonder, perhaps things are going so well on a fairly small dose of E because grapefruit juice is my favorite juice. Like I also only buy the 100% juice no sugar added stuff, something about that flavor just makes me like addicted. I have some almost everyday.
Grapefruit juice won't have much of an effect if any, you'd be much better off taking cimetidine than grapefruit juice as both as CP450 inhibitors, whereas something like phenobarbital is an inducer. CP450 gets rid of drugs, so by inhibiting it, blood levels remain high.
My question is this: would Prometrium be effective as an AA, much like Androcour. The latter being a progestin, prometrium being actual bioidetical P. I know it lowers T, but by how much. I hate spiro. Really, really hate it.
I think the consensus is that micronized progesterone (prometrium) isn't an effective AA, but that estrogen itself can be. I hated spiro too, so I went with bicalutamide and I am happy with it. Since I am on sublingual E for a variety of reasons and that doesn't seem to suppress T enough to do with an AA.
See my T was already very low from 1.5 years of HRT and now I feel with the high dose of E I'm on and the P that it will be enough. Maybe not. I talk to my endo Thursday, so Ill see what he says. Though, I believe you're right...was hoping someone would say "yeah, it's great" lol but thanks!
For some odd reason, the depression I lived with for over 30 years completely evaporated 5 days after I started Prometrium.
I take Prometrium orally once per day with my PM meds. I do also take Finasteride, but in the AM. They do not appear to be counteracting one another.
I tried sublingual once. The taste was not pleasant. I only take my Estradiol tablets sublingually.
One further curiosity: I have noticed that if I stop taking Prometrium for a few days (5-7 days), when I restart the capsules my breasts become tender & seem to become fuller a week or two later. This has happened 3 times since I started Prometrium at the end of Jan 2014.
I habitually take all my meds (apart from the sublingual E) with a few fluid ounces of full pulp orange juice.
My depression has been gone for 5 months now. Apart from the occasional mini-breaks, I will not be stopping the only medication (of many tried) that has successfully cleared away my depression.
Speaking of interesting side-effects when taking Prometrium... Prometrium plus Red Grapefruit juice = getting high, seriously.
Hi.
Definitely taking the Progesterone sublingual is not a pleasant taste but it is about 4-10 time smore effective, it seems. I prefer the vaginal approach, but need to find out if it really works well in the serum levels.
Progesterone as an AA - YES it does have some effect. Progesterone P4 and Estradiol E2 both have an effect on the hypothalamus which then lowers LH which then lowers testosterone T production. More importantly, P4 is a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor, meaning the production of dihydrotestosterone DHT is lowered. DHT is created for example in the skin from T and is what causes hair loss, body hair and such. I recommend everyone to first try a therapy with E2 and P4 only (E2 should not be given as tablets as the Estrone E1 production then will be high and E1 inhibits E2!; P4 should be given at a high dosage - either sublingual/rectal/vaginal or several 100 mg a day orally). Only if this does not improve testosterone levels wven if the dosages are adjusted a bit, then I guess Spiro is needed. P4 can also act directly on the gonads by lowering T production directly.
My hairline finally is growing back with P4 gel applied to it and I found out this week that I cannot really push away my breasts anymore when I try to lay flat on the belly during sports gymnastics. They have gained mass and volume which makes me very happy :)
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on July 10, 2014, 03:39:59 PM
Speaking of interesting side-effects when taking Prometrium... Prometrium plus Red Grapefruit juice = getting high, seriously.
hahahaha! I always take it with grapefruit except I eat it. Half or one entire grapefruit daily. I love the taste of it. :)
Quote from: anjaq on July 12, 2014, 04:29:13 PM
Progesterone as an AA - YES it does have some effect. Progesterone P4 and Estradiol E2 both have an effect on the hypothalamus which then lowers LH which then lowers testosterone T production
But, if you are post-op, this is a non-issue and usually, the levels of progesterone are not high enough, on average, unless you take it intramuscularly, to really have a significant effect on LH.
Quote from: anjaqMore importantly, P4 is a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor, meaning the production of dihydrotestosterone DHT is lowered.
This has only been found in a study with extremely high levels of progesterone that we cannot ever possibly replicate at the doses we typically take. So, personally, I very much doubt it's effective for that purpose.
Quote from: anjaqE1 inhibits E2!
My suspicion as well, that estrone may act as some sort of an anti-estrogen to estradiol if there is too much of it, saturating receptors and preventing estradiol (the strongest estrogen) from binding to receptors
BUT this is only a suspicion and has not been confirmed, as far as I know by doctors or studies. Who knows if this is indeed the case?! I personally have done better on injectables vs. oral where ratio of estradiol to estrone was more favorable but it could be due to other reasons as well.
Quote from: anjaqP4 should be given at a high dosage - either sublingual/rectal/vaginal or several 100 mg a day orally).
I personally find it quite impractical to let it dissolve there and wait...and I'm also not sure I like the quick peaks and lows on it. I also do enjoy the sedative effects I get from it when I take it orally which I think on sublingual is much less.
Rectal could work but whether the capsule really dissolves there and gets effectively absorbed, I'm really not sure although some doctors do tell ciswomen it's ok to take them that way if they find the vaginal route inconvenient due to leakage.
Vaginal, I'm also not sure due to the fact that our vaginas, for the most part, are not mucosal as ciswomens' are. Perhaps, with time, they become similar as some have postulated but who really knows?? I really can't tell with mine, I'm post-op 8 yrs.
I also find that the progesterone levels obtained through that route (i.e. vaginal/rectal) don't really amount to that much but they do seem better than oral on average with.
For me, I still choose oral. More convenient, I know it works and I take just enough so to have the desirable effects from them. :)
Quote from: anjaqThey have gained mass and volume which makes me very happy :)
Same for me! :)
Well just a quick reply on the issue with P4 inhibiting DHT, as I am about to go to sleep and want to reply more later. But what I need to say is that if you apply P4 locally on the skin, the concentrations within the skin are much much higher than what is done systemically by taking P4 orally. I think you can really reach the levels used in the study. For me, it worked. I am on Estradiol for 16 years now. And NOW that I use P4 locally and orally/vaginally, I get hair regrowth.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2DBsEwC.jpg&hash=f1027c7d782139ad554ec51d025461ca23c2e5eb)
(see all those short hair there? all my other hair is at least 20-60 cm long. Its all newly grown hair within half a year now sinc eI changed hormones.
So what exactly do you apply to your scalp? The content in the capsules or a progesterone gel? And perhaps, there is something else about progesterone that helps like the fact that it has anxiolytic and anti-depressant properties, dilates blood vessels, thus improving blood circulation and allowing more scalp hair to grow. But, I guess who really cares if the end result is more hair growth, right??!
Quote from: KayXo on July 12, 2014, 06:14:36 PM
So what exactly do you apply to your scalp? The content in the capsules or a progesterone gel? And perhaps, there is something else about progesterone that helps like the fact that it has anxiolytic and anti-depressant properties, dilates blood vessels, thus improving blood circulation and allowing more scalp hair to grow. But, I guess who really cares if the end result is more hair growth, right??!
I need to dump a bucket full on my head! ;D :D
I am not quite sure as to why the replies have disappeared, maybe it was too specific?
My reply to what I apply to the scalp was: progesterone gel
Quote from: KayXo on July 12, 2014, 04:42:50 PM
But, if you are post-op, this is a non-issue and usually, the levels of progesterone are not high enough, on average, unless you take it intramuscularly, to really have a significant effect on LH.
I was talking pre-op. If you take P4 sublingually or rectal, levels can go up significantly and inhibit Androgens.
Quote
My suspicion as well, that estrone may act as some sort of an anti-estrogen to estradiol if there is too much of it, saturating receptors and preventing estradiol (the strongest estrogen) from binding to receptors BUT this is only a suspicion and has not been confirmed, as far as I know by doctors or studies. Who knows if this is indeed the case?! I personally have done better on injectables vs. oral where ratio of estradiol to estrone was more favorable but it could be due to other reasons as well.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4k8jIW4.jpg&hash=f63d1909f62fd2fec8e81d271f2fb38c4aa9bc03)
With a RBA ratio of 100:60 between estradiol and estrone, I think it is quite fair to conclude that significantly higher emounts of estrone can compete with estradiol for the receptors.
Of course studies with humans using medical products would be favourable but I think the evidence is pretty clear already
QuoteVaginal, I'm also not sure due to the fact that our vaginas, for the most part, are not mucosal as ciswomens' are. Perhaps, with time, they become similar as some have postulated but who really knows?? I really can't tell with mine, I'm post-op 8 yrs.
In the worst case vaginal is like using it transdermally but keeping it from drying out - essentially allowing all of the contents to be absorbed by the vaginal lining.
Posts may have been lost because the back-up last night was not 100%.
I take progesterone sublingual in the morning. So, can I put it on my scalp at night instead and get the same effect from the P internally and also get hair benefit?
Quote from: TessaMarie on July 05, 2014, 08:44:27 PM
For some odd reason, the depression I lived with for over 30 years completely evaporated 5 days after I started Prometrium.
I take Prometrium orally once per day with my PM meds. I do also take Finasteride, but in the AM. They do not appear to be counteracting one another.
I tried sublingual once. The taste was not pleasant. I only take my Estradiol tablets sublingually.
One further curiosity: I have noticed that if I stop taking Prometrium for a few days (5-7 days), when I restart the capsules my breasts become tender & seem to become fuller a week or two later. This has happened 3 times since I started Prometrium at the end of Jan 2014.
I habitually take all my meds (apart from the sublingual E) with a few fluid ounces of full pulp orange juice.
My depression has been gone for 5 months now. Apart from the occasional mini-breaks, I will not be stopping the only medication (of many tried) that has successfully cleared away my depression.
I think the micronized progesterone I have taken sublingually for just 4 weeks now is primarily what makes me so calm and happy now.
I want to take micronized P every day, again and again and again.
I FEEL so right!
Johanna
Mine got lost... I have moved from cycling to all the time since I get no negative effects. I really need to hope for an areola increase, or it's under the breast scars with the BA.
Overall I don't feel a lot different. Getting up from bed is easier again, my libido won't back to sleep, and the sense of peace maybe dampened. I feel an it on my nipples, but nothing like sore growth spurt breasts.
The biggest problem is junk food cravings. Craming a salad in my stomach is HARD now.
Quote from: Cynthia Michelle on July 14, 2014, 08:02:38 PM
I take progesterone under my sublingual in the morning. So, can I put it on my scalp at night instead and get the same effect from the P internally and also get hair benefit?
I am not 100% sure how the effect would relate, so if transdermal would be near as effective as sublingual. I would rather suggest to keep the sublingual (why in the mornings? Are you then not sleepy?) and add something for the scalp in the venings for the hair benefit. I like gel there as it is not making the hair oily. If you use the contents of the capsules or progesterone cream (can be self made by mixing the contents of the capsules thoroughly with lotion - 5 capsules per 10 grams of lotion), it is oily and I dont like that in the hair so much.
Quote from: anjaq on July 14, 2014, 03:17:56 PM
In the worst case vaginal is like using it transdermally but keeping it from drying out - essentially allowing all of the contents to be absorbed by the vaginal lining.
But from the few studies I've read using transdermal progesterone in cream or gel, the absorption is VERY poor and the effect is mostly local.
Quote from: KayXo on July 15, 2014, 10:10:32 AM
But from the few studies I've read using transdermal progesterone in cream or gel, the absorption is VERY poor and the effect is mostly local.
One reason for this is the low P4 content of the Gels. Mine has 10 mg P4 in 1g Gel. Creams often have 5% or less P4. You don't put 10 grams of gel on you, usually. And then there is evaporation, just like in the estradiol gels - once the gel has dried, it is not entering the skin anymore. Thats why gels have a low efficiancy. A key to increasing efficiancy is that you need to make sure all of the P4 in the product is fuly absorbed by the skin, so a constantly moist environment like the inside of a vagina would mean that all the content can be absorbed - where else would it go. Of course it may be that it is not as good as sublingual or rectal application. Oral is worse though as most of the P4 is transformed by the liver into substances that are also nice though (making you happy, less anxious and a bit sleepy). If I ever manage to get my P4 values tested again in the next weeks I will switch to 200 mg vaginal a day and see what comes out of it as a serum value.
Quote from: anjaq on July 15, 2014, 11:38:31 AM
One reason for this is the low P4 content of the Gels. Mine has 10 mg P4 in 1g Gel. Creams often have 5% or less P4.
The studies I was referring to used creams and gels with much higher content of P4 than this and yet levels in the blood were VERY low, 1 ng/ml and less.
Quote from: anjaq on July 15, 2014, 11:38:31 AM
a constantly moist environment like the inside of a vagina would mean that all the content can be absorbed
My vagina and possibly most of post-op transwomen are not as moist as ciswomen. This reduces quite significantly absorption. And even in ciswomen, levels weren't that high.
Hmm - I think at least for ciswomen it works pretty great:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FH8R2Xno.png&hash=1d2e8090632a9bd61d2643af7172a026c50f186d)
I agree that with a reconstructed vagina it may differ from that though.
Sadly for me to test this in such a detail would cost some 100 $$ and acces to a microplatereader which I would have to beg for with some previous coworkers.
Sublingually however my P4 serum value was 6 ng/ml which is not too bad I think. Orally it was only 1.8 ng/ml - but admittedly it is hard to judge on this alone since it was not perfectly timed. I am keen to see my serum level on vaginal application. I need to make an appointment...
Can you cite me the studies about the ineffectiveness of high dosage P4 creas? All studies I saw up to now (but I have not done a thorough search) was on rather low dosages, targetted mainly for local treatments and the low transfer to the serum was desired in these cases.
Quote from: anjaq on July 15, 2014, 02:59:52 PM
Hmm - I think at least for ciswomen it works pretty great:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FH8R2Xno.png&hash=1d2e8090632a9bd61d2643af7172a026c50f186d)
The Cmax (maximum value) was around 17 nmol/L or about 5 ng/ml and average around 12.5 nmol/L which is about 4 ng/dl when values during just the luteal phase of a woman's menstrual range from about 3-20 ng/dl. I would say the levels obtained from this study are quite low.
Quote...I am not 100% sure how the effect would relate, so if transdermal would be near as effective as sublingual. I would rather suggest to keep the sublingual (why in the mornings? Are you then not sleepy?) and add something for the scalp in the venings for the hair benefit. I like gel there as it is not making the hair oily. If you use the contents of the capsules or progesterone cream (can be self made by mixing the contents of the capsules thoroughly with lotion - 5 capsules per 10 grams of lotion), it is oily and I dont like that in the hair so much. Unquote
Good point, Anjaq, about feeling sleepy. I almost always take my progesterone near bedtime because frequently it makes me a little sleepy, which is fine at bedtime.
I am totally convinced that micronized progesterone is the best way to go, and sublingually for me, but you have a vagina so that should work well, too, if your vaginal tissue permits the entry of the micronized progesterone into your bloodstream rapidly.
Where I live in Latin America, micronized progesterone is easy to obtain, legally and openly, at most large corner pharmacies.
I have heard that in some areas, countries, or regions of the world, that micronized progesterone can be hard to obtain, so I feel blessed to have this where I live because I want to keep taking my normal amount every day every day every it makes me feel VERY great, and very calm...it makes me feel like I can handle all things in life with calm.
Micronized progeterone is wonderful...and super powerful.
4 weeks on hormones, I already have always-erect protruding nipples that are starting to be noticeable under my shirt, if I wear my shirt tight.
No more body odor...that stopped after 3 weeks...wow that was fast.
No more acne of any kind on my face...wow, incredible.
The psychological results of micronized progesterone in the amounts I take are phenomenal, but are of course inside my head and not "proveable" directly...
My PHYSICAL results are indisputable. PHYSICAL changes no one can claim these results aren't real with my body.
The physical realities about protruding nipples and white bumps on my areolas and nipples and no body odor and no acne...these are all fabulous, totally GENUINE, results in just 4 weeks!!!
What can I say...wowowowowow!
Hugs to all,
Johanna
I will switch to taking the progesterone to before bed.
I am always tired and get 5 hours a night to sleep; however, I seldom sleep the 5 hours. I have a super high stress job and am on call. My responsibilities are 24/7. I never noticed the progesterone sleep effect but if it helps then I am all for it.
Quote from: Cynthia Michelle on July 16, 2014, 06:23:33 PM
I will switch to taking the progesterone to before bed.
I am always tired and get 5 hours a night to sleep; however, I seldom sleep the 5 hours. I have a super high stress job and am on call. My responsibilities are 24/7. I never noticed the progesterone sleep effect but if it helps then I am all for it.
It doesn't seem to make me very tired. I understand that the Dutasteride I take might inhibit this effect a bit though.
Quote from: Hikari on July 16, 2014, 06:38:13 PM
It doesn't seem to make me very tired. I understand that the Dutasteride I take might inhibit this effect a bit though.
I would say it doesn't me TIRED...it makes me SLEEPY which I feel is very different from tired.
Quote from: Hikari on July 16, 2014, 06:38:13 PM
It doesn't seem to make me very tired. I understand that the Dutasteride I take might inhibit this effect a bit though.
Yes by inhibiting the conversion of progesterone and other hormones to sedative substances like allopregnanolone.
Quote from: JohannaJohn on July 17, 2014, 12:02:14 AM
I would say it doesn't me TIRED...it makes me SLEEPY which I feel is very different from tired.
It makes me tired, sleepy, relaxed, giddy, high. :) Also depends when I take it.
Well, progesterone definitely makes me feel great, for sure about THAT!
4 and a half weeks in, I would say it borders on being a mild "euphoria", sometimes. Maybe a little less "euphoria" now in the last week or so compared to the first 3 weeks plus, but man oh man does it keep me most of the time feeling very positive.
Does it make me "high"? I don't know. I don't take drugs at all, I don't drink alcohol at all, and I don't use tobacco at all. I take no health medications at all. I am 56 years old, so it is great I stay healthy with no harmful substances and I am fortunate enough that my blood pressure is good 120/80 and sometimes 110/70 which is good for my age. I walk for exercise, and I live in a hot Latin climate so I go swimming multiple times a week because there is a pool at my apartment complex.
So it is hard to say if mild "euphoria" qualifies as "high" -- I am not a a psychologist so I am not sure.
What do other here think about this?
All the best,
Johanna
Hmm I've been on progesterone since I first started hrt. Now that I'm on shots for estrogen I definitely notice P's initial effects more. From the sleepiness to the mild euphoria. On pills it was difficult to notice any changes.
Could be that orally, if estrogen and progesterone are both taken, there is some kind of interaction that affects how progesterone is metabolized as both hormones, I think, are metabolized by the same enzymes or some of the same enzymes. So when estrogen is taken out the equation and taken parenterally, progesterone is metabolized differently, resulting in increased sedative effects. Just speculating...
In my case, switching to estrogen shots has definitely enhanced P's effects on me (i.e. softening of skin/hair, if that is in fact caused by progesterone). Could well be that when I switched to injections, because of my E levels shooting up quite significantly and remaining high for much longer (vs. sublingually), my body became more sensitive to progesterone (E increases progesterone receptors) and that's why I feel more P's effects. I'm happy. :)
I don't think I noticed a greater sedative effect from it though, I'd even have to say it is less than before but perhaps, that's because my body has gotten used to it. I do, however, notice a stronger euphoric, sedative effect when I take my P with food that is very fatty as opposed to lacking fat or without food.
Kay, those are some interesting points you make about injections vs. sublingually. and some possible interaction effects of E and P.
I am just 4 and a half week on hormones E and P, and my hair on my head SEEMS little softer...just maybe a small diference so far.
Part of the face on my skin SEEMS, anyway, to be softer and smoother, maybe with even a very slight glistening although the shine or glistening part may be my imagination, I am not sure...but certainly part of my face is smoother and softer.
I don't feel big moods swings like genetic girls do, at least not so far...
I wonder if progesterone make genetic girls feel mild euphoria sometimes? Or is this only the case for trans girls?
Does anyone know about this?
Johanna
Hi All,
This thread is one of my favorites. Thanks for all the information everyone.
I was just wondering what you think the effects would be for a male to take progesterone with low dose E or no E at all. I understand men also produce progesterone and it diminishes as they get older. Some speculate this is why DHT levels increase. I'm particular wondering if low dose E and progesterone would ease gender dysphoria. The euphoria being describe by people on progesterone makes me wonder if this might help.
Thanks,
Paige :)
Yes, there is a low dose protocol for people not wishing a full transition to ease gender dysphoria. I am not sure "P" is a part of it though.
Every month when I start a new cycle the experience is different. Last month about 4 hours after taking the first P pill I was raging. This month about 6 hours after taking the first P pill I was weeping in my office at work. *sigh*......
I hope these ups and downs even out soon.
OTOH I owe every woman that's been in my life an apology, because I never understood what PMS was like and I wasn't sympathetic enough to what they were feeling each month. Lesson learned.
Quote from: JohannaJohn on July 17, 2014, 10:17:50 PM
I don't feel big moods swings like genetic girls do, at least not so far...
I would think that mood swings in genetic women would be caused by their menstrual cycle and fluctuating hormone levels throughout the month whereas we, for the most part, take our hormones continuously and levels are much more stable, preventing mood swings.
Quote from: JohannaJohnI wonder if progesterone make genetic girls feel mild euphoria sometimes? Or is this only the case for trans girls?
Well, if we take progesterone orally, then we probably get much more of the metabolites that produce the sedative, "hypnotic" effects so I would think the euphoric effect (if caused by metabolites) is much milder in genetic girls whereas there is more a chance it could be experienced during pregnancy when progesterone levels are much higher as well as its metabolites.
Interestingly enough, from several studies I've come across, it would seem that most women's moods actually worsen around the time progesterone rises, more so in certain women than in others.
Quote from: Paige on July 17, 2014, 10:59:58 PMI was just wondering what you think the effects would be for a male to take progesterone with low dose E or no E at all. I understand men also produce progesterone and it diminishes as they get older. Some speculate this is why DHT levels increase.
E appears to prime the body for P since it upregulates (increases) progesterone receptors so the more E
it seems, the greater the effect of P. As far as other effects of P goes, like the "euphoria", if this is caused by its metabolites, then it wouldn't matter how much E you take but it would matter how you take P as metabolites are greater when taken orally vs non-orally. Some studies also suggest estrogen is anti-depressive and enhances mood. But, as always,
nothing is definitive. ;)
In the end, your best bet is to consult with a doctor and let them decide what is best for you, at this stage of your life...of course, with your consent. You may discuss about the above with them and see what they have they say. Perhaps, they can help clarify things. :)
Quote from: KayXo on July 18, 2014, 08:28:13 AM
E appears to prime the body for P since it upregulates (increases) progesterone receptors so the more E it seems, the greater the effect of P. As far as other effects of P goes, like the "euphoria", if this is caused by its metabolites, then it wouldn't matter how much E you take but it would matter how you take P as metabolites are greater when taken orally vs non-orally. Some studies also suggest estrogen is anti-depressive and enhances mood. But, as always, nothing is definitive. ;)
In the end, your best bet is to consult with a doctor and let them decide what is best for you, at this stage of your life...of course, with your consent. You may discuss about the above with them and see what they have they say. Perhaps, they can help clarify things. :)
Thanks KayXo, that's very helpful. I've never approached my family doctor, my therapist thinks I should but I've never had the guts. Known him for too long and he's my wife's doctor as well. I would love to start low dose but I can't figure a way to do it without the GP. I think I would need his referral to an endo too and he would want to know why. I also believe it's pretty tricky to get a prescription from another doctor without your family doctor finding out.
Take care,
Paige :)
Quote from: KayXo on July 18, 2014, 08:28:13 AM
I would think that mood swings in genetic women would be caused by their menstrual cycle and fluctuating hormone levels throughout the month whereas we, for the most part, take our hormones continuously and levels are much more stable, preventing mood swings.
Well, if we take progesterone orally, then we probably get much more of the metabolites that produce the sedative, "hypnotic" effects so I would think the euphoric effect (if caused by metabolites) is much milder in genetic girls whereas there is more a chance it could be experienced during pregnancy when progesterone levels are much higher as well as its metabolites.
Interestingly enough, from several studies I've come across, it would seem that most women's moods actually worsen around the time progesterone rises, more so in certain women than in others.
Kay, thanks much for your specific thoughts. Well, I don't take my daily micronized progesterone on and off like a menstrual cycle which I have read maybe SOME trans-girls do it that way -- I do it the way YOU described -- continuously at about the same time of day everyday (near bedtime).
Well, I take my micronized progesterone orally but sublingually...so maybe that is in part why I feel SO great so much of the time...WOWOWOWOWOWOW!
I LOVE micronized progesterone.
:)
By the way, I haven't had ANY erections during the past week or so. No problem with that...I am SO happy with my protruding nipples are starting-to-develop breasts.
Not that I want to stop the hormones, but if I ever were to stop them for, say, a month, I wonder if I would then get super frequent erections as before staring hormones?
I also wonder if therefore it would be likely I could father another child, then start my female hormones regimen again after about 30 days without female hormones.
I LOVE my developing breasts. The "girls" seem a little "fuller" compared to earlier this week. I could be "imagining" this...but I think it is real...I don't think I am imagining things...
Johanna
E appears to prime the body for P since it upregulates (increases) progesterone receptors so the more E it seems, the greater the effect of P. As far as other effects of P goes, like the "euphoria", if this is caused by its metabolites, then it wouldn't matter how much E you take but it would matter how you take P as metabolites are greater when taken orally vs non-orally. Some studies also suggest estrogen is anti-depressive and enhances mood. But, as always, nothing is definitive. ;)
In the end, your best bet is to consult with a doctor and let them decide what is best for you, at this stage of your life...of course, with your consent. You may discuss about the above with them and see what they have they say. Perhaps, they can help clarify things. :)
I was trying to remember an email and for the life of me I couldn't remember it. Shortly after taking my p (sublingually), I suddenly remembered it!! It could of just been a coincidence but whatever lol.
Quote from: JohannaJohn on July 17, 2014, 10:17:50 PM
Kay, those are some interesting points you make about injections vs. sublingually. and some possible interaction effects of E and P.
I am just 4 and a half week on hormones E and P, and my hair on my head SEEMS little softer...just maybe a small diference so far.
Part of the face on my skin SEEMS, anyway, to be softer and smoother, maybe with even a very slight glistening although the shine or glistening part may be my imagination, I am not sure...but certainly part of my face is smoother and softer.
I don't feel big moods swings like genetic girls do, at least not so far...
I wonder if progesterone make genetic girls feel mild euphoria sometimes? Or is this only the case for trans girls?
Does anyone know about this?
Johanna
I have read that taking Testosterone blockers is arguably not a good idea or makes much of a difference. I understood that if you don't take T blockers it would take
ALOT longer for all the changes to come into play? Now I am not taking 100% E & P as you are, I presume... So would you say in your opinion that T blockers are not really needed? And also T blockers are and can be a detriment to ones health? I am taking SupreFact which I assume is T blocker. Could you give me your opinions thank you so much....
Ginger...
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on July 23, 2014, 01:28:38 AM
I was trying to remember an email and for the life of me I couldn't remember it. Shortly after taking my p (sublingually), I suddenly remembered it!! It could of just been a coincidence but whatever lol.
Yea, I also noticed that progesterone in combination with enough estrogen has helped a lot with memory. My vocabulary suddenly improves and I can more easily access words which are stored somewhere in my brain. Really cool. I think it's probably cause the brain is much more relaxed. And something to do with progesterone affecting myelin sheath which speeds up transmission of signals in the brain.
Quote from: GingerMaxim on July 23, 2014, 04:46:45 AM
I have read that taking Testosterone blockers is arguably not a good idea or makes much of a difference. I understood that if you don't take T blockers it would take ALOT longer for all the changes to come into play? Now I am not taking 100% E & P as you are, I presume... So would you say in your opinion that T blockers are not really needed? And also T blockers are and can be a detriment to ones health? I am taking SupreFact which I assume is T blocker. Could you give me your opinions thank you so much....
Ginger...
Suprefact is not a T blocker, it just reduces (i.e. stops) testosterone production from testicles. Spironolactone, cyproterone acetate, bicalutamide are T blockers because they bind to androgen receptors and prevent testosterone from binding to androgen receptors.
I have not EVER noticed that transwomen taking anti-androgens developed any worse than women taking just E and P. In fact, it usually seems that adding an anti-androgen is often quite useful and beneficial but whether it's needed or not should be left to the doctor's discretion. In some cases, E is enough on its own.
Quote from: KayXo on July 23, 2014, 09:40:44 AM
Yea, I also noticed that progesterone in combination with enough estrogen has helped a lot with memory. My vocabulary suddenly improves and I can more easily access words which are stored somewhere in my brain. Really cool. I think it's probably cause the brain is much more relaxed. And something to do with progesterone affecting myelin sheath which speeds up transmission of signals in the brain.
Suprefact is not a T blocker, it just reduces (i.e. stops) testosterone production from testicles. Spironolactone, cyproterone acetate, bicalutamide are T blockers because they bind to androgen receptors and prevent testosterone from binding to androgen receptors.
I have not EVER noticed that transwomen taking anti-androgens developed any worse than women taking just E and P. In fact, it usually seems that adding an anti-androgen is often quite useful and beneficial but whether it's needed or not should be left to the doctor's discretion. In some cases, E is enough on its own.
Kay, very insightful answer. Congrats on this helpful post.
I have heard of E and P being successful (this is how I am doing it 5 weeks in -- I have Spiro in my house, but I have never used it to this point).
I have heard of some success with primarily just a true anti-androgen medical grade to start with...Spiro or cypro, for example, and adding E later.
I have heard of E and spiro being successful, without P.
I don't want to give up my micronized progesterone. It just makes me FEEL so great, and SO right. I want to continue and continue and continue with P!!!
My nipples and areolas look ready for a baby to nurse on them. SO cool!!!
My erections have disappeared totally. This is fine. Just one question about this...does anyone know that if, say, within 6 more months, I were to hypothetically stop for say 30 days with the female hormones, is it likely I would be able to father another child, then return to taking E and P again as I currently am?
I would probably experience significant mental distress if I were to stop the female hormones for 30 days, but maybe that would be worth it if I want to father another child during this time period, then continue my transition.
I have read that in such a case, I would NOT during this 30 day "abstinance" from E and P, have any problem with "losing" my breasts (except they might shrink just very slightly during such a 30 day "abstinance"), so that aspect would be okay.
As to using E and P and spiro/cypro/etc, all 3 of these, I have read of plenty of success stories using all 3.
Johanna.
Kay, that was a truly excellent post, so you merited an "applause" of one reputation point to the plus.
Johanna.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/ENDO/46497
***Make sure you read the whole article. It's short***
Lindsey Spratt, MD, of Maine Medical Center in Portland, and colleagues reported that all 12 of the male-to-female patients they saw at their clinic achieved levels of testosterone within the normal range for an adult female (1.1 to 6.3 pg/mL) by using estradiol doses of 4 to 10 mg/day with spironolactone 100 to 200 mg/day.
Spratt said her findings suggest that most transgender patients may not need additional agents beyond estrogen therapy to suppress endogenous gonadal activity, and that it should be assessed alone "before adding additional endocrine therapies to suppress ovarian or testicular activity to avoid unnecessary expense or side effects."
Quote from: JessicaH on July 23, 2014, 07:23:39 PM
Lindsey Spratt, MD, of Maine Medical Center in Portland, and colleagues reported that all 12 of the male-to-female patients they saw at their clinic achieved levels of testosterone within the normal range for an adult female (1.1 to 6.3 pg/mL) by using estradiol doses of 4 to 10 mg/day with spironolactone 100 to 200 mg/day.
Spratt said her findings suggest that most transgender patients may not need additional agents beyond estrogen therapy to suppress endogenous gonadal activity, and that it should be assessed alone "before adding additional endocrine therapies to suppress ovarian or testicular activity to avoid unnecessary expense or side effects."
This statement does not align with their findings since Spironolactone was ALSO used! ???
Quote from: JohannaJohn on July 23, 2014, 01:51:24 PM
Just one question about this...does anyone know that if, say, within 6 more months, I were to hypothetically stop for say 30 days with the female hormones, is it likely I would be able to father another child
No way of knowing for sure but I
think (I'm not a doctor or specialist) the sooner you stop, the better. Just common sense but who knows?? You need to address this concern to a doctor or a fertility specialist and I think this also probably varies from one person to another.
Quote from: KayXo on July 25, 2014, 08:08:36 PM
This statement does not align with their findings since Spironolactone was ALSO used! ???
No way of knowing for sure but I think (I'm not a doctor or specialist) the sooner you stop, the better. Just common sense but who knows?? You need to address this concern to a doctor or a fertility specialist and I think this also probably varies from one person to another.
Typical 'research' into trans-related hormone therapies. We haven't done more research, but we probably should! In the meantime try super low dosages because you'll probably get side affects- even though we have no research to back up that claim.
Many aspect of HRT are highly variable.
Lack of relevant research, or old research studies using obsolete and dangerous side effects substances such as Premarin and Ethynyl Estradiol and non-pure Progesterone forms that produce dangerous side effects, and then MD's still sometimes base their prescription to you based on obsolete and incorrect studies...
And then the more recent knowledge we, since maybe 2008??? Or so, hasn't been fully backed up yet (but it hasn't been disproven, either) by sufficient sample size double-blind research studies.
It would be REALLY nice to know what the effects would be, of taking HRT STRONGLY for 3 months or 4 months, then deciding you want to father just ONE more baby and your cis-girlfriend or wife wants this...and go through some agony of lack of the proper hormones for your female self gender, but physically produce your last baby, and then start again with the correct female hormones in your body to continue your transition to your true female self.
It would be great to have research studies about this, and I am not sure it would be incredibly difficult to do. Thousands of new transgirls worldwide start HRT every month. Surely SOMEPLACE this could produce a statistically-valid, double-blind sample size that could indisputably make conclusions about, for example, the subject I raised in the immediately above paragraph.
Hugs, Girls, from your ecstatic-about-great-results-so-far friend here,
Johanna.
:)
Quote from: JohannaJohn on July 26, 2014, 10:21:14 PM
Many aspect of HRT are highly variable.
Lack of relevant research, or old research studies using obsolete and dangerous side effects substances such as Premarin and Ethynyl Estradiol and non-pure Progesterone forms that produce dangerous side effects, and then MD's still sometimes base their prescription to you based on obsolete and incorrect studies...
And then the more recent knowledge we, since maybe 2008??? Or so, hasn't been fully backed up yet (but it hasn't been disproven, either) by sufficient sample size double-blind research studies.
It would be REALLY nice to know what the effects would be, of taking HRT STRONGLY for 3 months or 4 months, then deciding you want to father just ONE more baby and your cis-girlfriend or wife wants this...and go through some agony of lack of the proper hormones for your female self gender, but physically produce your last baby, and then start again with the correct female hormones in your body to continue your transition to your true female self.
It would be great to have research studies about this, and I am not sure it would be incredibly difficult to do. Thousands of new transgirls worldwide start HRT every month. Surely SOMEPLACE this could produce a statistically-valid, double-blind sample size that could indisputably make conclusions about, for example, the subject I raised in the immediately above paragraph.
Hugs, Girls, from your ecstatic-about-great-results-so-far friend here,
Johanna.
:)
There has been some research done about this. This is why every doctor stresses sperm banking before starting on HRT. After about 6 months on HRT it is possible to become permanently chemically sterile. I can't find a direct link, but this has been talked about in forums here on Susan's just use the search button and search for sterility. Or you can talk to your endo.
It's not generally advisable to stop HRT, then get back on for the purposes of fathering a child. You will need usually about 6 months of being off of HRT to get the sperm production going again. Note that it isn't just spiro or other anti-androgens that mess up your sperm production- it's estrogen. Trying to keep the 'best of both worlds' i.e. enough estrogen to feminize but enough testosterone to remain sexually active with male genitalia is generally hard to acheive and not advisable by any endo I've heard of. Same for FTMS as testosterone can stop them from having a normal menstrual cycle necessary for conception.
You risk losing a lot of your progress by going off HRT. You may even need to take testosterone to stimulate sperm production. A lot of it is luck and YMMV. If you had electro, some of that body/facial hair can grow back. It'd probably just be easier to do what all lesbians do- adopt or try artificial insemination.
Quote from: Kristina77 on July 27, 2014, 04:29:16 AM
There has been some research done about this. This is why every doctor stresses sperm banking before starting on HRT. After about 6 months on HRT it is possible to become permanently chemically sterile. I can't find a direct link, but this has been talked about in forums here on Susan's just use the search button and search for sterility. Or you can talk to your endo.
It's not generally advisable to stop HRT, then get back on for the purposes of fathering a child. You will need usually about 6 months of being off of HRT to get the sperm production going again. Note that it isn't just spiro or other anti-androgens that mess up your sperm production- it's estrogen. Trying to keep the 'best of both worlds' i.e. enough estrogen to feminize but enough testosterone to remain sexually active with male genitalia is generally hard to acheive and not advisable by any endo I've heard of. Same for FTMS as testosterone can stop them from having a normal menstrual cycle necessary for conception.
You risk losing a lot of your progress by going off HRT. You may even need to take testosterone to stimulate sperm production. A lot of it is luck and YMMV. If you had electro, some of that body/facial hair can grow back. It'd probably just be easier to do what all lesbians do- adopt or try artificial insemination.
Kristina, +1 applause to you for your great info here.
Yes, I could adopt. The Latin country I have lived in for many years certainly has adoption laws although I am not sure of the full details.
Yes, it would be great to have the "best of both worlds.
Wow, you think it would take 6 months off of female hormones to get enough sperm to be able to father a child.
I don't know if I could take 6 MONTHS without my proper hormones that are resonating so WONDERFULLY through-and-through my body and mind.
Now that I have started them, I might feel quite some stress and lack of calm, without them.
Once in these 6 weeks, I missed a nightly dose, and 12 hours later, about noon the next day, suddenly I felt like short of patience, a little irritable, a lack of calm...Kristina, I simply didn't FEEL RIGHT. I was stunned at how dependent my body and mind are now for our beloved hormones.
I took my normal dose 12 hours late. In about 15 minutes, I felt okay again. Within an hour, I felt euphoric happiness again as I usually do now about 90% of the time.
Kristina, I don't if I could go so long and feel so WRONG again. I think it might be very tough for me. I could try, but it might be hard for me. I don't know. Based on just 12 HOURS late, it is hard to imagine what 6 MONTHS with female hormones would feel like.
Does anyone else have any thoughts about this?
By the way, I have NEVER taken Spiro yet, believe it or not. Yes, certainly, I have Spiro at my house, on the shelf. It is dirt cheap in price in the Latin country I've lived in for many years. But I don't want to take it ever, unless it becomes absolutely necessary. Just estradiol valerate and micronized progesterone, in strong FULL doses sublingually every day, are giving me what I consider to be SPECTACULAR results physically and mentally in just 6 weeks.
Do you, or does anyone else, think that the fact that I have never taken Spiro or other strong valid anti-androgen, might reduce the "waiting period" of 6 months that Kristina has spoken of?
WOW I am in euphoric happiness since starting my estradiol valerate and micronized progesterone 6 weeks ago. I NEVER imagined the great change, mentally and physcially, that would happen to me SO fast.
Wow it is hard to describe how RIGHT and HAPPY I feel.
Hugs,
Johanna, my true self, losing her "Fear of Flying" to borrow a phrase from genius cis female author Erica Jong. Google Erica Jong if you don't know about her...
:)
Quote from: JohannaJohn on July 27, 2014, 03:15:33 PM
Kristina, +1 applause to you for your great info here.
Yes, I could adopt. The Latin country I have lived in for many years certainly has adoption laws although I am not sure of the full details.
Yes, it would be great to have the "best of both worlds.
Wow, you think it would take 6 months off of female hormones to get enough sperm to be able to father a child.
I don't know if I could take 6 MONTHS without my proper hormones that are resonating so WONDERFULLY through-and-through my body and mind.
Now that I have started them, I might feel quite some stress and lack of calm, without them.
Once in these 6 weeks, I missed a nightly dose, and 12 hours later, about noon the next day, suddenly I felt like short of patience, a little irritable, a lack of calm...Kristina, I simply didn't FEEL RIGHT. I was stunned at how dependent my body and mind are now for our beloved hormones.
I took my normal dose 12 hours late. In about 15 minutes, I felt okay again. Within an hour, I felt euphoric happiness again as I usually do now about 90% of the time.
Kristina, I don't if I could go so long and feel so WRONG again. I think it might be very tough for me. I could try, but it might be hard for me. I don't know. Based on just 12 HOURS late, it is hard to imagine what 6 MONTHS with female hormones would feel like.
Does anyone else have any thoughts about this?
By the way, I have NEVER taken Spiro yet, believe it or not. Yes, certainly, I have Spiro at my house, on the shelf. It is dirt cheap in price in the Latin country I've lived in for many years. But I don't want to take it ever, unless it becomes absolutely necessary. Just estradiol valerate and micronized progesterone, in strong FULL doses sublingually every day, are giving me what I consider to be SPECTACULAR results physically and mentally in just 6 weeks.
Do you, or does anyone else, think that the fact that I have never taken Spiro or other strong valid anti-androgen, might reduce the "waiting period" of 6 months that Kristina has spoken of?
WOW I am in euphoric happiness since starting my estradiol valerate and micronized progesterone 6 weeks ago. I NEVER imagined the great change, mentally and physcially, that would happen to me SO fast.
Wow it is hard to describe how RIGHT and HAPPY I feel.
Hugs,
Johanna, my true self, losing her "Fear of Flying" to borrow a phrase from genius cis female author Erica Jong. Google Erica Jong if you don't know about her...
:)
Aw thanks for the +1! My first :D In any case as I pointed out I don't think it's neccessarily the anti-androgens that inhibit sperm production, but estrogen & progestrone as well (both female hormones). So I don't think it matters much you haven't taken spiro. I had not idea that you lived in a Latin country, my apologies I thought perhaps you had been to an endo (you have to do that here). My endo doesn't perscribe anti-androgens either, but only Estrogen & Progesterone. He says that Progesterone helps the Estrogen to bind better to receptors and together that inhibits testosterone... I think large doses of Estrogen inhibit testosterone too. Most TS girls here in the states are perscribed low doses of anti-androgens and Estrogen with no progesterone. I should note that the testosterone blocking effect of Spiro is not its cheif function but a side effect- as far as I know there aren't any drugs that can directly stop testosterone production but with a ton of estrogen and progesterone you won't need anti-androgens... I should know I'm on very high doses of both Estrogen and Progesterone and my testosterone is rock bottom. No, I haven't had blood tests but I haven't had bottom surgery yet and I stopped having erections at 4 months in about.
I don't know what the adoption laws are like in your country, again I apoligize I had assumed it would be as easy as here in the states (well, some states). Best of luck to you I feel the exact same I can definately feel 'off' when my P or E levels are dropping off if you can be okay with adoption or artificial insemination I would agree and say to just stay the course. There's nothign definitive, and it's possible that you could father a child if off hormones- the figures I gave are general ballpark numbers... a lot of it depend on age and genetics. If in your early 20's you probably would get sperm production going again more quickly, after that it would probably take longer... I've read stories about MTFs impregnating their wives/girlfriends while ON HRT but then again I don't know their dosage. As I said before most TS girls here in the states are put on some pretty low dosages
Quote from: Kristina77 on July 28, 2014, 03:34:23 AM
He says that Progesterone helps the Estrogen to bind better to receptors
Actually, progesterone appears to downregulate (reduce the number of) estrogen receptors so that tissues become less sensitive to estrogen and this seems to not only be the case in the endometrium but also in breasts. Also, progesterone appears to increase a certain enzyme which is responsible for converting estradiol, the strongest estrogen to estrone, the second strongest estrogen. This is why, for instance, progesterone is prescribed with estrogen in women with a uterus, to prevent endometrium hypertrophy (and possibly cancer) that can occur with estrogen alone due to its proliferative action.
Quoteand together that inhibits testosterone
Progesterone, orally, at typical doses, seems to do very little in the way of inhibiting testosterone production. It may have, however, anti-androgenic properties, apparently at the cellular level which I found out recently when reading certain studies.
Quoteas far as I know there aren't any drugs that can directly stop testosterone production
LhRh agonists/antagonists do as does cyproterone acetate. Spironolactone will, as well through several mechanisms.
Hi everybody,
I finished to read all of this post and my message only to say my
WARMEST THANKS
to everyone, for all your post : it provides great details.
I wish you the best,
Hannah
Quote from: Kristina77 on July 28, 2014, 03:34:23 AM
Aw thanks for the +1! My first :D In any case as I pointed out I don't think it's neccessarily the anti-androgens that inhibit sperm production, but estrogen & progestrone as well (both female hormones). So I don't think it matters much you haven't taken spiro. I had not idea that you lived in a Latin country, my apologies I thought perhaps you had been to an endo (you have to do that here). My endo doesn't perscribe anti-androgens either, but only Estrogen & Progesterone. He says that Progesterone helps the Estrogen to bind better to receptors and together that inhibits testosterone... I think large doses of Estrogen inhibit testosterone too. Most TS girls here in the states are perscribed low doses of anti-androgens and Estrogen with no progesterone. I should note that the testosterone blocking effect of Spiro is not its cheif function but a side effect- as far as I know there aren't any drugs that can directly stop testosterone production but with a ton of estrogen and progesterone you won't need anti-androgens... I should know I'm on very high doses of both Estrogen and Progesterone and my testosterone is rock bottom. No, I haven't had blood tests but I haven't had bottom surgery yet and I stopped having erections at 4 months in about.
I don't know what the adoption laws are like in your country, again I apoligize I had assumed it would be as easy as here in the states (well, some states). Best of luck to you I feel the exact same I can definately feel 'off' when my P or E levels are dropping off if you can be okay with adoption or artificial insemination I would agree and say to just stay the course. There's nothign definitive, and it's possible that you could father a child if off hormones- the figures I gave are general ballpark numbers... a lot of it depend on age and genetics. If in your early 20's you probably would get sperm production going again more quickly, after that it would probably take longer... I've read stories about MTFs impregnating their wives/girlfriends while ON HRT but then again I don't know their dosage. As I said before most TS girls here in the states are put on some pretty low dosages
Thanks Kristina...well I 56 so I think I am getting some pretty amazing results, especially considering my age. I fathered a child here in Latin America at age 50.
I don't what the result would be if I stopped for a short time, but I don't WANT to stop, these CORRECT hormones for my body are CORRECT for me, in all aspects. What more can I say?
I had my SECOND case of "male fail" in the last few days which I find astounding, just 6 and a half weeks into HRT.
Of course, I have been taking very full doses, too, because here I don't have to wait for the low doses like in the USA or many other countries.
Great that your endo prefers E and P. For me, I think this is optimal.
Let me write more about my 2 "male fails" (being mistaken initially as female) in more detail in M to F talk...
Hugs,
Joanna.
I AM FEMALE.
I've read through the whole topic, there's been some great posts thank you - one thing I'm curious about is a question for the post-op ladies (and I've searched a few other topics about this so just looking for further detail): have you noticed that it has helped you with vaginal dryness at all? I see Northern Jane mentioned that benefit but I haven't seen it come up too much otherwise.
I am at this point swayed mostly towards trying it, that would be my biggest hope. It would be cool if my bewbs evened out and all the other stuff but I'm worried about the mood swing aspect however as I'm bipolar and currently (mostly) functioning ok without any meds for that, so I'm wondering if anyone has anything further to say about its effects on self lubrication in the vagina?
I am currently using an Estriol cream for that which is not bad but it doesn't quite do enough around the vulva and it's not all being absorbed so that's a drawback for intimacy...
Any comments from bipolar people either maybe?
Quote from: cruise4burgers on August 03, 2014, 09:54:42 AM
I've read through the whole topic, there's been some great posts thank you - one thing I'm curious about is a question for the post-op ladies (and I've searched a few other topics about this so just looking for further detail): have you noticed that it has helped you with vaginal dryness at all? I see Northern Jane mentioned that benefit but I haven't seen it come up too much otherwise.
I am at this point swayed mostly towards trying it, that would be my biggest hope. It would be cool if my bewbs evened out and all the other stuff but I'm worried about the mood swing aspect however as I'm bipolar and currently (mostly) functioning ok without any meds for that, so I'm wondering if anyone has anything further to say about its effects on self lubrication in the vagina?
I am currently using an Estriol cream for that which is not bad but it doesn't quite do enough around the vulva and it's not all being absorbed so that's a drawback for intimacy...
Any comments from bipolar people either maybe?
Can not comment on the Progesterone cream. I use Premarin vaginal cream. It has helped a lot i feel.
I use it about 1x a week now and if i feel the need maybe 2 x. Mostly 1x is enough to keep it happy and healthy.
Hope someone can comment on the Progesterone, would be nice for the old memory banks.
Quote from: mrs izzy on August 03, 2014, 10:15:22 AM
Can not comment on the Progesterone cream. I use Premarin vaginal cream. It has helped a lot i feel.
I use it about 1x a week now and if i feel the need maybe 2 x. Mostly 1x is enough to keep it happy and healthy.
Hope someone can comment on the Progesterone, would be nice for the old memory banks.
For me, izzy, and remember I am only 7 weeks into full dose HRT, I have had great results so far with estradiol valerate (a pure form of estrogen) and micronized progesterone which is also a pure form of progesterone.
I feel that the more synthetic formats such as premarin, ethynyl estradiol, and provera carry side effect risks that I consider to be far too dangerous for me.
If it would help, and I don't presume to be more expert than you because you are much further along this female journey than I am, but here is some relevant info from an MD posted on the Internet...
QUOTE
Oral medroxyprogesterone, the most commonly used product, is very inexpensive, but it has the disadvantage of counteracting some of the beneficial effects of estrogen on blood lipids. Some people find that it causes depression or mental irritability. The recently published Women's Health Initiative study has also documented an increased incidence of adverse complications in women taking medroxyprogesterone in combination with conjugated estrogens for hormone replacement; this increased incidence of adverse complications was not found with conjugated estrogens alone. Micronized progesterone is a reasonable alternative in those who want to take a progestin. It does not counteract the beneficial effects of estrogen on blood lipids. But micronized progesterone is more expensive, and is often harder to obtain. When taken by mouth, it is partially metabolized to 5-alpha and 5-beta pregnenolone; these metabolites can act as natural tranquilizers, and may promote sleep. This effect may be desirable in patients who suffer from anxiety or insomnia.
UNQUOTE
Therefore, since you take Premarin, which is a conjugated estrogen (unlike estradiol valerate which is pure estrogren, such as what I take), you made get some side effects and drugs mixing effects that may not be desirable for you.
From everything I can tell, the pure forms such as 17 beta estradiol or estradiol valerate (which I take) and then for progesterone -- micronized progesterone or other pure form of progesterone -- either sublingually or patch or injected if done competently and correctly -- are the best bets, at least for me. And maybe for you, too...
I don't know if micronized progesterone is easily available where you live. It certainly is where I live. The price here for it is medium (US$ 60 for a 15 day supply for me).
The micronized progesterone makes me feel euphoric, and in a state of almost constant happiness I can hardly believe it. And my nipple development is impressive. My breast development is still small, I just got female breasts 6 weeks in (about 5 days ago), yes they are small, but they are obvious, and female-shaped.
I was showing my breast and nipple development via webcam to a young transgirl friend who lives in another country from where I live, today, and she strongly ageed that my nipples are doing great, she agreed that my breasts are HERE NOW for sure though small but at least they are here for good, and she agreed that the shape of my small female breasts has a feminine base well-suited for immediate future growth.
I am over the moon in happiness, Izzy.
I think my breast and nipple growth is mostly due to the micronized progesterone, on very full dose. Could your MD, endo, etc. arrange this for YOU? Maybe it could help you, too, Izzy, and other girls (and developing girls) here.
Embraces,
Johanna.
Quote from: JohannaJohn on August 03, 2014, 03:44:23 PM
For me, izzy, and remember I am only 7 weeks into full dose HRT, I have had great results so far with estradiol valerate (a pure form of estrogen) and micronized progesterone which is also a pure form of progesterone.
I feel that the more synthetic formats such as premarin, ethynyl estradiol, and provera carry side effect risks that I consider to be far too dangerous for me.
If it would help, and I don't presume to be more expert than you because you are much further along this female journey than I am, but here is some relevant info from an MD posted on the Internet...
QUOTE
Oral medroxyprogesterone, the most commonly used product, is very inexpensive, but it has the disadvantage of counteracting some of the beneficial effects of estrogen on blood lipids. Some people find that it causes depression or mental irritability. The recently published Women's Health Initiative study has also documented an increased incidence of adverse complications in women taking medroxyprogesterone in combination with conjugated estrogens for hormone replacement; this increased incidence of adverse complications was not found with conjugated estrogens alone. Micronized progesterone is a reasonable alternative in those who want to take a progestin. It does not counteract the beneficial effects of estrogen on blood lipids. But micronized progesterone is more expensive, and is often harder to obtain. When taken by mouth, it is partially metabolized to 5-alpha and 5-beta pregnenolone; these metabolites can act as natural tranquilizers, and may promote sleep. This effect may be desirable in patients who suffer from anxiety or insomnia.
UNQUOTE
Therefore, since you take Premarin, which is a conjugated estrogen (unlike estradiol valerate which is pure estrogren, such as what I take), you made get some side effects and drugs mixing effects that may not be desirable for you.
From everything I can tell, the pure forms such as 17 beta estradiol or estradiol valerate (which I take) and then for progesterone -- micronized progesterone or other pure form of progesterone -- either sublingually or patch or injected if done competently and correctly -- are the best bets, at least for me. And maybe for you, too...
I don't know if micronized progesterone is easily available where you live. It certainly is where I live. The price here for it is medium (US$ 60 for a 15 day supply for me).
The micronized progesterone makes me feel euphoric, and in a state of almost constant happiness I can hardly believe it. And my nipple development is impressive. My breast development is still small, I just got female breasts 6 weeks in (about 5 days ago), yes they are small, but they are obvious, and female-shaped.
I was showing my breast and nipple development via webcam to a young transgirl friend who lives in another country from where I live, today, and she strongly ageed that my nipples are doing great, she agreed that my breasts are HERE NOW for sure though small but at least they are here for good, and she agreed that the shape of my small female breasts has a feminine base well-suited for immediate future growth.
I am over the moon in happiness, Izzy.
I think my breast and nipple growth is mostly due to the micronized progesterone, on very full dose. Could your MD, endo, etc. arrange this for YOU? Maybe it could help you, too, Izzy, and other girls (and developing girls) here.
Embraces,
Johanna.
Sorry Johanna if you are little confused about me.
First off if you looked at what i wrote i use premarin vaginally. That means i am done, finished or as i put it.... i am snipped, stitched and dusted.
Also Premarin if you look is make from natural pregnant mare urine. So i would say that's as close to organic as one can get.
It is used for women to help add softness and wetness to there vaginas.
Premarin vaginally is only local adsorbed so it has no effect on my blood levels.
I only take estrogen now to help control the night sweats.
I have been on HRT since 1999 and i have done the whole basket of hrt over these years.
I have BA done in 05 so i have no need to worry about breasts. They are just there.
I've used progesterone cream. If I remember correctly it should be used per application. Directions for women indicated applying once or twice daily. While I used it I noticed some changes in how my breasts felt, no pain but just a sensation that something was happening. My nipples were often more erect while using it, really. On the down side, I was applying twice daily. That's too much if T levels are still high. I experienced more hair growth on my chest, so it was too soon for me to use P. Now my T is lower and I'm on spiro. I'm starting to apply the p again once daily each morning. I'll see what happens. I will say that the sensations I felt before are happening again within my breasts. I just haven't seen enough recent studies on the use of p for transsexuals. The medical profession really is split on its value or usefulness for us. My own research on it indicates the need for p in females early in puberty for breast development. What I do know, based on my own usage, is that p does cause changes to my body (breasts and to my dismay chest hair growth). Anyway, I'll try to remember to post any noticeable results to my single dose usage. Hugs.
Removed dosage amount. TOS #8
I think, in my case, increasing ESTRADIOL, the strongest of the three natural estrogens (ESTRIOL is the weakest) and taking it by means of intramuscular injection helped SIGNIFICANTLY with making vagina more elastic, smooth (I was amazed actually at changes, didn't expect it), makes things more exciting too. ;D
Perhaps you could ask for the Estrace cream instead that contains estradiol and not estriol which is a very weak estrogen...hopefully, your doctor will agree. :)
Quote from: KayXo on August 05, 2014, 11:11:19 AM
I think, in my case, increasing ESTRADIOL, the strongest of the three natural estrogens (ESTRIOL is the weakest) and taking it by means of intramuscular injection helped SIGNIFICANTLY with making vagina more elastic, smooth (I was amazed actually at changes, didn't expect it), makes things more exciting too. ;D
Perhaps you could ask for the Estrace cream instead that contains estradiol and not estriol which is a very weak estrogen...hopefully, your doctor will agree. :)
Good to know, my levels are pretty high via pellets. I'm only 8 months post op so hopefully there's more excitement coming my way...
The Oestriol actually works quite well, I'm just curious about progesterone potentially meaning I could use less of it or not need it altogether. I'm not gonna lie, having a little bit of cream left in there all the time is a bit of a problem for inviting guests over for dinner.
LOL ok! Well, ask the doctor for some and if he agrees to prescribe some, hopefully, it will help, everyone reacts differently.
well so far my doctor is not recommending progesterone because of the supposed mood problems and other issues. But I am wondering if I eat some wild Mexican yams or buy my own progesterone cream and use it on my own would I be doing myself harm? So far shes against prescribing a pill for it but Do i really need it>
The yam or cream will barely do anything, don't waste your $$$ on them. As for progesterone causing mood problems, it depends on individual and she may be confusing effects of other progestogens called progestins such as medroxyprogesterone acetate (Provera) that have more this tendency to cause mood disorders. Bio-progesterone can actually be quite soothing for some, and act as an anti-depressant, in contrast to other progestins because of its metabolite allopregnanolone. You should read up on the differences and show the information to your doctor. The molecules are different and their effects are, as a result, quite different too. It can make a huge difference for some, very positive, in terms of breast growth, skin texture, nails and mood.
Quote from: KayXo on August 06, 2014, 02:31:39 PM
The yam or cream will barely do anything, don't waste your $$$ on them. As for progesterone causing mood problems, it depends on individual and she may be confusing effects of other progestogens called progestins such as medroxyprogesterone acetate (Provera) that have more this tendency to cause mood disorders. Bio-progesterone can actually be quite soothing for some, and act as an anti-depressant, in contrast to other progestins because of its metabolite allopregnanolone. You should read up on the differences and show the information to your doctor. The molecules are different and their effects are, as a result, quite different too. It can make a huge difference for some, very positive, in terms of breast growth, skin texture, nails and mood.
KayXo is correct. It sounds to me like your doctor doesn't have the more up-to-date information we have had since, I dunno, about 2005 or 2008. Provera form of progesterone has been clearly shown to cause problems.
I use micronized progesterone which is pure, and great for 7 weeks of HRT and I already have significant breast development and many other great results.
Micronized progesterone and other "pure" forms of P don't have these mood swing problems that Provera clearly has.
Maybe your doctor doesn't know about this. But the recent evidence is obvious.
Get some more recent valid article and other info (google is great -- hint, hint) and hand them to your doctor.
If you doctor still doesn't agree, you might want to consider finding a doctor who has more recent up-to-date into about micronized progesterone and other "pure forms" of progesterone. Provera does NOT fall into this great category, sorry.
Progesterone affects MY mood in part by making me feel in the sky with happiness....
Johanna.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on August 06, 2014, 02:18:00 PM
well so far my doctor is not recommending progesterone because of the supposed mood problems and other issues. But I am wondering if I eat some wild Mexican yams or buy my own progesterone cream and use it on my own would I be doing myself harm? So far shes against prescribing a pill for it but Do i really need it?
My docs were also concerned about progesterone worsening my depression, especially since January 2014 was very rough for me.
For two weeks I went looking for any studies that had found a link between Micronized Progesterone (ie: Prometrium) and depression and could not find any. The only studies I found with such a link referred to Provera (which is not bio-identical).
So, after making sure that my wife & some of my friends were watching me closely, I started taking the Prometrium capsules on 30 Jan.
5 days later, on 4 Feb, the depression from which I had suffered for over 30 years completely disappeared. I am now 6 months depression-free.
Maybe I just got extremely lucky. I have never heard of anyone else getting this particular side-effect from Micronized Progesterone.
Quote from: TessaMarie on August 07, 2014, 02:07:54 AM
My docs were also concerned about progesterone worsening my depression, especially since January 2014 was very rough for me.
For two weeks I went looking for any studies that had found a link between Micronized Progesterone (ie: Prometrium) and depression and could not find any. The only studies I found with such a link referred to Provera (which is not bio-identical).
So, after making sure that my wife & some of my friends were watching me closely, I started taking the Prometrium capsules on 30 Jan.
5 days later, on 4 Feb, the depression from which I had suffered for over 30 years completely disappeared. I am now 6 months depression-free.
Maybe I just got extremely lucky. I have never heard of anyone else getting this particular side-effect from Micronized Progesterone.
+1 applause for you Tessa Marie. How great to hear that Micronized Progesterone finally solved your depression problem after 30 years, and that it is going on 6 months now.
Micronized progesterone has me in the sky with happiness 90% of the time, just 8 weeks into HRT.
Glad to here it has worked so well for you, too.
Big hugs,
Johanna.
Misspelling...that should read, "Glad to hear..."
Johanna.
I recently increased my progesterone and since the change, I do feel a significant improvement in my mood AND I look slimmer as well, maybe something to do with the fact that I have less appetite. I don't wake up depressed as I occasionally used to. I have more energy, I'm less worried about my looks and what others might think, just more easy going. My nipples are also more prominent than before, thicker, larger and touching them gets me a little aroused, first time ever in my life!
Quote from: KayXo on August 08, 2014, 08:31:51 AM
I recently increased my progesterone and since the change, I do feel a significant improvement in my mood AND I look slimmer as well, maybe something to do with the fact that I have less appetite. I don't wake up depressed as I occasionally used to. I have more energy, I'm less worried about my looks and what others might think, just more easy going. My nipples are also more prominent than before, thicker, larger and touching them gets me a little aroused, first time ever in my life!
Kay, I totally agree with you. I think I love progesterone even more than estrogen. I am quiet euphoric happy about 90% of the time, I too worry less about what others might think, I am calmer to handle almost any situation without worrying, I have super great nipples that are frequently "tingling" like they want to grow some more, or have a baby nurse them...
Johanna.
I began progesterone just a bit over 2 weeks ago. Already I am noticing more fullness in the breasts.
My endo has worked with trans folk since 1975 and while not having statistical data, he has developed therapies that work for him with the majority of his patients.
I am not aware of any in depth studies about the use of progesterone and transwomen. Everything about it seems to be transmitted as folklore and practical knowledge. Maybe someday this question will get answered.
Quote from: LizMarie on August 09, 2014, 11:27:14 AM
I began progesterone just a bit over 2 weeks ago. Already I am noticing more fullness in the breasts.
My endo has worked with trans folk since 1975 and while not having statistical data, he has developed therapies that work for him with the majority of his patients.
I am not aware of any in depth studies about the use of progesterone and transwomen. Everything about it seems to be transmitted as folklore and practical knowledge. Maybe someday this question will get answered.
I've been applying a dropper full of progesterone oil to my sun dried hair about once a week a few hours before my shower and shampoo, it might serve to counteract whatever dihydrotesterone that may be contributing to any hair loss I dunno, but it does make my hair softer and more manageable. Hopefully it doesn't promote any brain rot because I already have CRS. ;D
I wish I wasn't running out of mine. I feel crankier when I haven't got much left.
I love my Progesterone injections. I have not had one bad effect and the "girls" are going crazy with growth. No way I am giving it up ever. :)
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 09, 2014, 10:02:56 PM
I love my Progesterone injections. I have not had one bad effect and the "girls" are going crazy with growth. No way I am giving it up ever. :)
Me neither, Jessica. I want to take P for the rest of my life. I feel euphoric happiness 90% of the time, and my boobies are small but real. I will now need to have breast cancer exams for the rest of my life. Wow, am I happy.
Johanna.
Interestingly, so far, hormone replacement therapy which included progesterone (bio-identical) has not been found to be associated with increased breast cancer incidence. Same with bio-identical estrogen or even non bio-identical in randomized controlled studies. This is very promising indeed for us and breast cancer incidence appears to be quite rare in transsexual women if one refers to the scientific literature although it could just be undereported, who knows?! It has also been found that pregnancy, a time when progesterone and estrogen levels are very high, was associated with a lesser likelihood of breast cancer in ciswomen. And finally, breast cancers tend to occur mostly in women who are older and who have less hormones...so perhaps, it is the decline in hormones that is responsible...I don't know, I'm just reporting what I have read...but it is very reassuring indeed, at least for me...But, more thorough investigation (and more studies) are needed before any definite conclusions can be made...just that so far, it's looking pretty good. :)
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 09, 2014, 10:02:56 PM
I love my Progesterone injections. I have not had one bad effect and the "girls" are going crazy with growth. No way I am giving it up ever. :)
lol same here :) I'm 9 months in and at a B cup... though I first had to change from A to B at like 7 months XD My endo says the progress is fantastic, and says I'll have no problem getting to a D... possibly DD! And they for trans girls that we get our mother's cup size -1... I laugh so hard at that because my mom is an A cup XD I've already surpassed her!:D To be fair though I have two sisters at a C and a D respectively.
Quote from: KayXo on August 11, 2014, 12:19:27 PM
Interestingly, so far, hormone replacement therapy which included progesterone (bio-identical) has not been found to be associated with increased breast cancer incidence. Same with bio-identical estrogen or even non bio-identical in randomized controlled studies. This is very promising indeed for us and breast cancer incidence appears to be quite rare in transsexual women if one refers to the scientific literature although it could just be undereported, who knows?! It has also been found that pregnancy, a time when progesterone and estrogen levels are very high, was associated with a lesser likelihood of breast cancer in ciswomen. And finally, breast cancers tend to occur mostly in women who are older and who have less hormones...so perhaps, it is the decline in hormones that is responsible...I don't know, I'm just reporting what I have read...but it is very reassuring indeed, at least for me...But, more thorough investigation (and more studies) are needed before any definite conclusions can be made...just that so far, it's looking pretty good. :)
Kay, you are so very correct. The bio-identicals seem to have not yet had the number of rigorous academic studies that would be ideal...but it all looks great so far.
I think when we look back 10 years from now, I bet that rigorous academic studies in the next 10 years will prove indisputably that WE ARE CORRECT about this.
In other words, totally avoid Provera as it causes problems (PROVEN FOR SURE) because it is NOT a bio-identical.
I think in the next 10 years or so, micronized progesterone (which is what i take) or equivalent pure form in injection form, will become the new standard for nearly all transgender girls.
So, Jessica, I am not at all surprised to hear you haven't had any problem with your P. Me neither!
Johanna.
Quote from: KayXo on August 11, 2014, 12:19:27 PM
breast cancers tend to occur mostly in women who are older and who have less hormones...so perhaps, it is the decline in hormones that is responsible...
In a nutshell, this is
exactly what Dr. O'Dea told me earlier this year.
I saw the Progesterone topic, and the first thing that came to mind was "pellets"! I haven't been interested in the progesterone pills for whatever reason, but when I switch to pellets next month, I plan to inquire about it. (Hopefully she offers them). Which, by the way, I made my appointment today for September 15th for a new doc to switch to pellets with Dr. Amy Brenner just outside Cincinnati. Pretty excited about that!
Quote from: karina13 on August 12, 2014, 11:51:59 PM
I saw the Progesterone topic, and the first thing that came to mind was "pellets"! I haven't been interested in the progesterone pills for whatever reason, but when I switch to pellets next month, I plan to inquire about it. (Hopefully she offers them). Which, by the way, I made my appointment today for September 15th for a new doc to switch to pellets with Dr. Amy Brenner just outside Cincinnati. Pretty excited about that!
I grew up just north of Cincinnati, in Centerville. I'll be there recovering after SRS in Montreal this November :) I'm not sure I'll be wanting to meet up with anyone, but knowing about Dr. Brenner could possibly be a huge help then and in the future. Thanks for sharing the info about her! :D :D
Jenny Girl, you have had an incredibly great transition. I think I recall seeing some videos of yours on youtube.
Wow!
Johanna.
Quote from: Jennygirl on August 13, 2014, 05:53:12 AM
I grew up just north of Cincinnati, in Centerville. I'll be there recovering after SRS in Montreal this November :) I'm not sure I'll be wanting to meet up with anyone, but knowing about Dr. Brenner could possibly be a huge help then and in the future. Thanks for sharing the info about her! :D :D
Wow, Centerville! I live in Dayton (in the beautiful Oregon District)! Been here for just over a year. Lived in Cincy 3 times in the past. When November comes around, I'm hoping I will have moved back to California by then. It's certainly been calling me back!
Quote from: JohannaJohn on August 13, 2014, 08:47:09 AM
Jenny Girl, you have had an incredibly great transition. I think I recall seeing some videos of yours on youtube.
Wow!
Johanna.
Yes^^ I came across your videos, Jenny, several months ago and found them very inspiring! Good to see you're doing well!
Thanks Johanna!
Karina that is so neat! Just down the street from where I grew up! And California, too? And the pellets?? What the heck?! ;)
:angel: Hey Good News! My doctor decided after giving her some articles about
Bioidentical progesterone (prometrin) to be open about me being prescribed it.! So will wait for her to do her own research. She asked me why I wanted it. I told her it issue to
other transwomen reporting not only better moods but more fuller perky.breasts
Itold her that was important to me" especially the moods. As I am bi polar. So when I do labs September 22nd may get to start progesterone Hay!
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on August 13, 2014, 03:34:14 PM
:angel: Hey Good News! My doctor decided after giving her some articles about
Bioidentical progesterone (prometrin) to be open about me being prescribed it.! So will wait for her to do her own research. She asked me why I wanted it. I told her it issue to
other transwomen reporting not only better moods but more fuller perky.breasts
Itold her that was important to me" especially the moods. As I am bi polar. So when I do labs September 22nd may get to start progesterone Hay!
Shawn, hi dear, I didn't actually cry tears of joy when I just read your post -- but I FELT radiant "tears" as feelings of happiness for your convincing of your doctor by means of MY posts, and the post of so many other girls here, about how fantastic bioidentical progesterone is -- with no side effects that I can tell --
EXCEPT ---
Extreme euphoric happiness (which I and many other trans girls are experiencing) and robust breast growth.
What marvelous "side effects"?
:)
;D
:o :D
Johanna, a newly developing transgirl 2 months into HRT with euphoric happiness 90% of the time and small but nice, and REAL, female breasts, and still growing FAST.
My "girls" are getting bigger each WEEK or 10 days -- it is physically seeable.
Johanna, devout user of micronized progesterone.
Hi friends :police:
Let's make sure none of us are trying to play Dr. or advocating for or against a specific medication here
Quote8. The discussion of hormone replacement therapy(HRT) and it's medications are permitted, with the following limitations:
A. You may not advocate for or against a specific medication or combinations of medication for personal gain. This is strictly prohibited.
B. You may not discuss the means to acquire HRT medications without a prescription. The discussion of self medication without a doctors supervision is prohibited.
C. The discussion of recommended or actual dosages is strongly discouraged to prevent information obtained on this site from being used to self medicate.
We can not in good conscience condone the self administering of these medications. Not only may self medication be illegal, but HRT medications can cause serious health problems, and many have the potential for life-threatening side effects that can only be detected and prevented with proper medical supervision.
QuoteA. You may not advocate for or against a specific medication or combinations of medication for personal gain. This is strictly prohibited.
(Bolding mine)
I don't see any issue ???
Edit: Also, I wish mine were getting noticeably bigger *sigh* (been feeling a little pessimistic lately..) [/end whine]
Quote from: Jessika Lin on August 16, 2014, 03:07:21 PM
Quote from: V M on August 15, 2014, 06:05:07 PMA. You may not advocate for or against a specific medication or combinations of medication for personal gain. This is strictly prohibited.
(Bolding mine)
I don't see any issue ???
Edit: Also, I wish mine were getting noticeably bigger *sigh* (been feeling a little pessimistic lately..) [/end whine]
While no-one on the thread seems to be seeking to profit from what is being written, it is dangerous for anyone without medical training to present strong opinions in a manner that could cause others to take or not take any specific medications as a result.
I have stated in this thread that the depression I had for 30+ years vanished 5 days after I started micronized progesterone and has not yet returned, more than 6 months later.
Just because my depression happened to respond so well to micronized progesterone does not imply that anyone else will experience the same result. I am just one person. There are many who have not received the same result.
I felt the need to share my experience with micronized progesterone here since it was so strong & so positive. That should only be taken as an indication that such a possibility exists, not a guaranteed result. There are outliers in every distribution. I may well be one of those outliers.
As to growth, I have noticed spurts of growth with not much in between most of the time. There has been no noticeable growth for me for a while, and now today there is that mild pain that usually pressages another such spurt of growth.
Quote from: Julian of Norwich, c.1395All shall be well.
And all shall be well.
And all manner of things shall be well.
Be well,
Tessa
Feeling wonderful just now because my wife is playing a really good cover of our wedding song at high volume shortly before we go out to dinner at the restaurant where we got married 13 years ago. This is not an endorsement of the band "Lissie", nor of the song "Nothing Else Matters", nor of the "Valley Green Inn".
Any correlation between taking daily non cycled progesterone and an increase of T?
I just good my blood test. My T has gone up from 40 to 74. I'm on the dangerous limit. No wonder I have constant erections.
I'm stopping it and seeing if it is the culprit
Quote from: Julia (Apple-Whatever) on August 18, 2014, 01:45:15 AM
Any correlation between taking daily non cycled progesterone and an increase of T?
I just good my blood test. My T has gone up from 40 to 74. I'm on the dangerous limit. No wonder I have constant erections.
I'm stopping it and seeing if it is the culprit
Disclaimer: I am not a doctor. Julia, I am curious what "non-cyled progesterone" means? My micronized progesterone is giving me fantastic results.
What is non-cyled progesterone?
All the best,
Johanna.
Quote from: JohannaJohn on August 18, 2014, 02:22:15 AM
What is non-cyled progesterone?
All the best,
Johanna.
That I am not doing on and off cycles, I take it daily, the whole month. I went back to feeling like crap after stopping it.
Quote from: JohannaJohn on August 18, 2014, 02:22:15 AM
Disclaimer: I am not a doctor. Julia, I am curious what "non-cyled progesterone" means? My micronized progesterone is giving me fantastic results.
What is non-cyled progesterone?
All the best,
Johanna.
Spelling correction: non-cycled progesterone.
Last time I tested my testosterone levels, they were around 15 ng/dl on continuous progesterone, a pretty standard dose. I'm post-op and also taking estradiol by injections. Testosterone was actually higher years before that, on no progesterone and just sublingual estradiol, around 27 ng/dl.
I recently increased (doubled) my progesterone and I've not noticed any increasing androgenization symptoms. :) I take my progesterone daily, no stops.
I have been on micronized progesterone for more than 6 years and I have had only positive effects,fuller breasts,better over all feeling and no increase in T. :)
I forgot to add, Jennygirl I have been watching your videos for some time now,they are very helpful.
I had a blood test yesterday. In seven days we will know if I am back to normal.
Apparently, I have natural high testosterone, and lowering it is hard unless dangerous amounts of AA are used. The increase in Testosterone from the P should be negligible in normal persons, but I'm not one....
My Nurse Practioner changed her mind about giving my progesterone (bio identical version) until I am on a good dose of estrogen and spiro, I think that sounds pretty wise, but I hope its not a PERMANENT decision.
My Endo told me that progesterone only works after breast growth is mostly complete the P then will help round (fill)out the breasts.
Quote from: franie on September 11, 2014, 10:42:45 AM
My Endo told me that progesterone only works after breast growth is mostly complete the P then will help round (fill)out the breasts.
Don't tell mine that, They are lapping it up like a cat with a bowl of milk! ;D I never thought I would experience any growth like I am having. My Endo swears by it. Just shows the different trains of thought among health care providers I reckon. :)
I just found out that insurance approved my progesterone RX so I'll pick it up today and start tomorrow. I'll let everyone know how I do. ;D
I'm finally on P as of like a week ago - much more for the cognitive effects than physical. It's a clear difference already!
I'm having great growth without it. I'm already a B cup at 8 months and two weeks even with low estrogen levels. I told my booby's "it's okay to slow down now," lol!
Ally :icon_flower:
1 month without Progesterone:
E: 2952 PG/ml
T: 62.4 ng/dl (Before: 74)
Prolactine: 94.4ng/ml
We can conclude that progesterone gives me a small boost in testosterone. It would not be a problem if my T was so damn high. I either manage to get a higher dose from the E or lose 3 kg.
Quote from: peky on May 28, 2013, 07:09:49 PM
No, no, no, no! progestin are contraindicated in HRT for cis or trans folks. WPATH and the Woman's Health Initiative (one of the largest study demonstrating an association between progestin and breast cancer) do not support the use in transgender HRT
The "progesterone thread" rises its ugly head every so often at Susan's...at the end of the day people will do what ever they want, and they would believe what ever they want, but as a women of sciences I would not recommend its use.
Wha if your intersexed?
My family medical doctors and I believe I have PAIS. I asked my hrt doctor, but she didn't give me an answer yet (I think she wants to see my new blood work first)?
For those taking progesterone, can you share how your skin/hair is and how you feel when taking progesterone versus when you were just taking estrogen? The pattern you have noticed over time.
I've always thought that progesterone made skin and hair softer/smoother, gave one an improved sense of well-being BUT I've noticed that since doubling my dose, my hair appears to be less soft and shiny, skin is drier and veins are slightly more prominent and although quite calm, I will admit to sometimes feeling slightly depressed. I do love the temporary euphoria progesterone gives me but overall, my feeling is that estrogen is more what gives my skin/hair its smooth/soft/shiny complexion, keeps me energized/motivated and yet calm.
Something else I noticed was waking up every few hours at night whereas sleep seemed to be much more continuous before, I think. Strange since progesterone is alleged to improve sleep and cure insomnia. ???
Quote from: KayXo on September 17, 2014, 09:32:32 AM
For those taking progesterone, can you share how your skin/hair is and how you feel when taking progesterone versus when you were just taking estrogen? The pattern you have noticed over time.
I've always thought that progesterone made skin and hair softer/smoother, gave one an improved sense of well-being BUT I've noticed that since doubling my dose, my hair appears to be less soft and shiny, skin is drier and veins are slightly more prominent and although quite calm, I will admit to sometimes feeling slightly depressed. I do love the temporary euphoria progesterone gives me but overall, my feeling is that estrogen is more what gives my skin/hair its smooth/soft/shiny complexion, keeps me energized/motivated and yet calm.
Something else I noticed was waking up every few hours at night whereas sleep seemed to be much more continuous before, I think. Strange since progesterone is alleged to improve sleep and cure insomnia. ???
I've only been on it for six days so I can't say if any physical effects are due to the P or the E (which I started 8-31) but my skin is softer and the euphoria is really nice whilst it lasts. I had trouble sleeping the first few nights but I've taken my sleep med the past two and have had some of the most amazing sleep ever. I do feel calmer and more level and between the P and Spiro my blood pressure is the best it's ever been. I haven't noticed any changes to my hair but I'd need to do a scientific study of washing and abstaining from the use of products for a few days to see how it feels. Sadly I have prominent veins so that hasn't changed at all. They get very noticeable when my arms and hands are in a depedent position but hopefully the shifting of subcutaneous fat helps that. I'm starting a doubled dose of estrogen Saturday so we'll see how it all works together.
Speaking of progesterone - time to take my morning dose!
I've been on progesterone since early last November. I've found that it has helped breast growth tremendously. even though they're just awkward teenage titties, as I affectionately call them, they look like any normal pair of breasts. I thas really helped them grow and shape up nicely for me. Keep in mind I'm now 23 and all women in my family have big boobs.
When I first started, I was given oral estrogen only. I ended up having to switch providers, but the new one was not used to treating trans patients and as such, much more open to my input. Helped that I presented myself very knowledgeably and used medical terminology. After some initial trial and error I started on injectable estradiol valerate and progesterone with oral antiandrogens.
Since I was on progesterone most of the time I've been on HRT I can't give a very good comparison. I do know that I had really good results for that time. About 6 months ago, I started modifying the injections to cycle the progesterone, so I'm not on it all the time. I have noticed a perceptible reduction in breast growth since that time. This could also be attributable to some delays in supply and injection, however.
I am intrigued by the number of people here who seem to use pellet implants. I initially discounted these as I assumed they would provide extremely low doses suitable for postmenopausal cis women seeking to counteract osteoporosis and thus not provide sufficient doses for MTF HRT purposes. The whole reason I went injectable vs other transdermal routes is that I wanted to reduce my interaction with it - I can forget it except for once or twice a week. Thinking about it once every 3-6 months would be even better.
I am very very interested in the details on these, as well as people's levels while using them. Please feel free to PM me if you use pellets, I really want to know more details so I have something to bring to my doctor.
Clearly, from everything I read so far, progesterone (or progestogens, in general) seems very useful for breast growth especially and perhaps the reason why so many transsexual women don't achieve enough breast growth and often resort to implants is that progesterone was not taken or not enough of it since some doctors believe it is unnecessary.
Quote from: KayXo on September 17, 2014, 12:50:35 PM
Clearly, from everything I read so far, progesterone (or progestogens, in general) seems very useful for breast growth especially and perhaps the reason why so many transsexual women don't achieve enough breast growth and often resort to implants is that progesterone was not taken or not enough of it since some doctors believe it is unnecessary.
It's not just that. Progesterone is useful, and has a variety of effects on breast tissue. However in the majority of people, neither progesterone nor estrogen will produce particularly impressive tissue growth in the absence of HGH and IGF-1, which are elevated during puberty and decline to a fraction of those levels during the early to mid twenties. This combined with genetic factors leads to the wide variability in breast growth response.
So it's not just uneducated doctors, it's our bodies too.
Quote from: KayXo on September 17, 2014, 12:50:35 PM
Clearly, from everything I read so far, progesterone (or progestogens, in general) seems very useful for breast growth especially and perhaps the reason why so many transsexual women don't achieve enough breast growth and often resort to implants is that progesterone was not taken or not enough of it since some doctors believe it is unnecessary.
Personally, I am taking micronised progesterone more for the emotional & mental effects. Those have been life changing for me.
There has been some continued breast growth since early February. It does feel like some of it might be due to the micronised progesterone I am taking, although it might be just firming up what is already there rather than actually increasing the size. They do feel more solid now. Of course, that might be due to the ongoing effects of the estradiol I have been taking since mid-June 2013.
Regardless of whatever physical effects it may be having, the emotional & mental benefits are too great for me to consider not taking it. Thankfully, my doctors agree with this.
Tessa
I take micronized progesterone twice a day; once in the morning, after breakfast, and once a nght about an hour before bed.
Quote from: Delsorou on September 17, 2014, 01:09:33 PM
However in the majority of people, neither progesterone nor estrogen will produce particularly impressive tissue growth in the absence of HGH and IGF-1, which are elevated during puberty and decline to a fraction of those levels during the early to mid twenties.
I also always thought that our lack of breast growth compared to ciswomen could be due to low levels of IGF-1 and HGH compared to what they are during puberty BUT what to say of ciswomen who experience
significant breast growth during pregnancy, some of whom developed very little during puberty? These are older women, up to age 40, experiencing significant breast growth! Both HGH and IGF are low.
My estradiol and (most probably) progesterone levels are typical of early pregnancy at the moment and I must say I've developed quite a bit thus far and it's only been a few months. More than in my previous 9-10 yrs on hormones (mostly oral).
Of course, there is genetics but I think that, perhaps, high levels of both hormones could lead to significantly more breast growth in the majority of us. The problem is that very few of us experience such levels due to doctors' fear of risks associated with such levels although my doctors (family physician and endocrinologist) don't seem to mind and facts, in my humble opinion (I'm not a doctor) speak for themselves...Most women become pregnant at least once in their lives and don't seem to die or suffer from health problems more than men do. In fact, cardiovascular incident seems to be less in pre-menopausal women. Are women who have more babies and go through several months of very high levels of hormones, again and again, more prone to illnesses, death and so on? Doesn't seem like it. In fact, experts have noticed that risk of breast cancer is less in women who have more children.
In the end, it's up to the doctor to decide what is best for the patient and the patient should always follow. But, I think that if doctors prescribed routinely bio-identical hormones in a way to achieve quite high levels of BOTH hormones in all transgendered women, preferably by means of injections or pellets due to convenience/ratio of hormones (although
personally I would be wary of pellets due to too constant levels desensitizing cells), then we could have perhaps witnessed a greater rate of transwomen satisfied with their breast growth and less resorting to breast augmentation.
This is just my opinion and I only wish to add to this discussion. By no means am I advising anyone to do anything. I'm not a doctor, just a layperson wanting to add their 2 cents. :) As always, I welcome the opinion of others. :)
Quote from: Wynternight on September 17, 2014, 01:32:33 PM
I take micronized progesterone twice a day; once in the morning, after breakfast, and once a nght about an hour before bed.
I also take mine twice a day but always with some (fatty) food to increase absorption. I also eat a little grapefruit every day in hopes this will also increase progesterone's bioavailability.
I take mine with fatty food as well.
The past few days I haven't had the euphoria but it's made me bloody drowsy. Work today has been a trial as far as staying awake.
Quote from: KayXo on September 17, 2014, 04:28:17 PM
In the end, it's up to the doctor to decide what is best for the patient and the patient should always follow.
Good discussion about the progesterone itself and its effects, but I disagree with this point. Even specialized doctors don't always have the answers, and doctors often have differing opinions. Know when to trust and when you need to help them guide you.
I have been on progesterone since June.
Negatives
I have had issues with constipation,
I feel my progress has slowed
Positives
I feel better, more in the moment and more mentally alert,
Breasts (small) seem a tad bit bigger ( perhaps it is my imagination). My areolas became a bit conical,
Provided motivation to schedule for injectable E to rev up the transition.
Quote from: Cynthia Michelle on September 17, 2014, 06:06:14 PM
I have been on progesterone since June.
Negatives
I have had issues with constipation,
I feel my progress has slowed
Positives
I feel better, more in the moment and more mentally alert,
Breasts (small) seem a tad bit bigger ( perhaps it is my imagination). My areolas became a bit conical,
Provided motivation to schedule for injectable E to rev up the transition.
What do you mean when you feel your progress has slowed?
I feel my progress slowed because my areolas are much less tender to the touch. For example, today at work I had a Head Plumber very lightly hit me (closed fist) in the upper chest, you know where (he was not trying to hurt me but he does this or my back or arm a lot ( We have meet 2nd thing in the morning for almost 27 years). Anyhow, I expected there would be a lot of pain from the past but there was a dull not to painful sensation. I feel that my physical change process has slowed. Then again, I could be too sensitive to the issue and expect more change than is realistic.
(Side note - Another plumber gave me a bag of orange lifesavers yesterday. He is a really cute guy too ( I present male at work), HUUUUUUM. Guess who I think of when I have a life saver. )
Progesterone has anti-estrogenic effect somewhat, reducing the number of estrogen receptors and increasing conversion of estradiol (the most potent estrogen) to estrone.
I wonder if I should stop it and spend more time on the estadriol.
The small issues that progesterone solved for me are back. Namely, freaking insomnia. If there was a way of reducing testosterone, I would start taking it again.
Well, I think I'm going to jump on the bandwagon again, but...
I have capsules. I'm divided between taking them in alternate days, or following the cycle (12 last days of the month or half a month). The idea would be benefiting from the positive effects, but stop before the accumulative effect increases too much my testosterone. Taking it everyday ends giving me an hyperactive libido, more erections than I can handle and borderline testosterone (12 pg/nl that when added to what I already have gave 74 ng/dl)
No Dosages Please
I've been on it since I started hrt but I ran into a ton of problems taking medroxy. When I switched to the bio identical form all of the issues I had went away. I haven't seen an increase in my T and I don't cycle it, my doc instructed me to take it everyday since I don't have a female reproductive system.
I take it daily, no cycling, and have had no increase in my libido at all: quite the opposite. My already very low libido has gone to non-existant and I haven't had any unwanted activity in my southern bits in weeks.
I read where some of you talked about cycling? Currently I'm not on progesterone, and am not sure I need it. I'm 9 months in and wear a 32B however my booby growth seems to have slowed considerably. I do have an ovary and a uterus as I'm intersexed. Would that mean if I were to be out on progesterone, I'd need to cycle it? Just curious for the future as for the moment I have no plans to start progesterone. Thanks! :D
Ally ;)
I was started on oral E and MPA by a local sympathetic GP, who I later learned has a one size fits all approach to TG HRT... Oral E in a LOW dose and MPA, for all and good luck I hope that works for you thats ALL I will prescribe ???
Well it didnt take me long to quit the medroxy and to find a new doc.... That stuff made me feel like CRAP....
My new doc who is a very experienced OB/GYN (but little TS HRT experience, BUT very agreeable ;D ) says just take P all the time...
Well Ive been cycling P from the beginning because I couldnt seem to take it more that 10 days without feeling bad on it...
Since starting weekly EC injections and recently increasing dosage though I do seem to tolerate it much better... Ive also quit smoking for the last two weeks too so maybe thats some of it... I have that familiar nice sore sensitive feeling again in my boobs that has been much less intense and come and gone much more since starting EC shots...
I really do feel there is something about EC metabolism that is very negatively effected by nicotine and smoking... I am sure the same is true for straight 17B E and EV BUT likely much less I feel with oral E being the worst, and patches and gel working much better for me when I smoked... Who knows how smoking and EV shots would work... I dont smoke any more but I bet they would be a lot better than EC for a smoker... Im not sure but nicotine might affect P metabolism too... So dont anyone tell me otherwise please, that belief has been a great motivation for me to quit :P
I donno but now instead of going off P in the evening after 10 days this time Ive just lowered it and that seems to be the sweet spot for me...
Of course we will throw a wrench in the machine AGAIN today.... We are switching from EC to EV injections.... BTW my insurance will cover most of the cost of EV and very little for EC ???
Whatever I just hope the EV works better than EC for me... For the last month and a half or so on EC Ive felt like I was not doing as well on it as I was on straight plain old 17B E from gel/patches/pills in a HIGH dosage... We started injections to simplify things...
5 days in on my last EC shot and Im still feeling OK but looking forward to making the switch today to EV every 5 days if necessary... Docs orders ;D
No Dosages Please
Quote from: Eva on September 30, 2014, 08:43:44 AM
Ive also quit smoking for the last two weeks too so maybe thats some of it... I have that familiar nice sore sensitive feeling again in my boobs that has been much less intense and come and gone much more since starting EC shots...
Nice job and smart for quitting the butts Eve! Smoking on HRT is a no-no and of course medroxy is crap too, stick with the real P, believe me it does work and like E the results aren't instantaneous so stay the course. It looks like you're moving in the right direction Sis! :eusa_clap:
Thanks ;D
Quote from: Eva on September 30, 2014, 09:54:07 AM
Thanks ;D
Hi Eva,
I too had a problem with my insurance covering estradiol cypionate injections. I was having less than desirable E levels for full transition on the estradiol valerate pills taken sublingually although I have had good development. So at first my Endo doubled my pill dosage. Fast forward another three months, and although a little higher my E level was still low for full transition at only 168 pg/ml. So at my request, my Endo put me on estradiol valerate weekly injections in hopes of bringing my E levels up to where they should be for full transition. I just had my 3rd on Saturday and so far I'm loving it. My boobys have started growing again, and I can't wait to see my E levels at my next Endo visit. :D
Ally ;)
Hi friends
Because too many people can't seem to be able to get the clue that dosages are not allowed... Topic Locked
Thank you
V M