Andrej Pejic is featured on Vogue Brazil. From the picture can you tell if Andrej had some HRT done? I noticed the enlarged areolae and some breast formation. If so what HRT produces such a body?
I haven't had any HRT so I don't know how the body transforms.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/04/andrej-pejic-nude-photo-vogue_n_3384942.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/04/andrej-pejic-nude-photo-vogue_n_3384942.html)
WOW
?
I've posted quite a few articles about Andrej in the News Forum, haven't ever read anything about them doing HRT. Andrej sure does look amazing!
Shana
Andrej reminds me of a young Michael Monroe
I follow Andrej's stuff almost weekly and when I saw that photo I knew a thread like this was going to come up here. I've suspected for some time that he was probably on androgen blockers at least. His feminine appearance is quite striking and he's expressed in interviews that he "isn't very sexual"-- an extremely rare trait for a male in his early 20s. These new photos show definite breast growth, though. As a male of about Andrej's frame and size myself, I can say there's no way a pair of pointers like that can appear without some help. It is possible to get something with suction devices, but these look hormonal to me.
I personally think Andrej Pejic's popularity is doing an amazing amount of good for the public image of androgynous and transgender people. Growing breasts won't hinder that at all. Maybe he'll finally score a Victoria's Secrets contract. ;)
~ Lyric ~
Thanks Lyric,
Do you think Andrej is any kind of estrogen or progesterone? I am asking because I really like Andrej's figure.
I so want to start hormone replacement therapy. I really thing that I would benefit from it. Unfortunately where I live there are no gender specialists and it doesn't look like I will be moving.
With my weight though I will probably look like I have very large man boobs. But still I would really like to have some HRT.
I'm not a HRT expert at all, but I'm sure someone else here can tell more about that than me. I believe I've heard progesterone contributes more to breast growth, but don't quote me on it. Obviously it would help to discuss one's goal with your prescribing physician.
~ Lyric ~
I'm going to throw in the possibility of an intersex condition.
I also noticed a scar in his/her left rib cage, and two below in the upper left abdominal quadrant....
He/She is so beautiful...yes, definitely a tanner stage II....origin? who cares! :laugh:
Note pressure marks form the panty or panty-hose he/she was wearing >:-)
Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on June 06, 2013, 04:11:58 PM
I'm going to throw in the possibility of an intersex condition.
He's taken quite a few shots over the last few years showing a flatter chest. I think if he were intersex, things would have been visible before and not perked up at age 22.
She/he's made a very good decision IF she/he went on hormones.
To preserve his gorgeous feminine looks and not having it ruined by masculinisation/testosterone.
I was very feminine looking too when younger and went on hormones at 25...to preserve my feminine looks.
Masculinisising was a total nightmare for me, back in those days.
Never regretted going on hormones, on the contrary.
OMG Dahlia this is such a great perspective. Unfortunately I am about 30 years old so if I go on hormones now I don't think I will preserve anything :D.
I hate all the masculinity that is in my body. I don't feel ok about it and I have a theory that when I started to hit puberty my life started to change to the worse. Guys around me started to hit puberty and they were happy about it but I became really self-conscious. My body hair wasn't growing until later and I felt that there was something wrong with me. Sometimes I say that I haven't gone through puberty properly.
Unfortunately I am in a place where taking hormones is not that easy. My doctor tried to ask an endocrinologist for help and she was like no that is against out culture. But I would love to go on some kind of HRT. I don't know what though.
I think that the best course of action for anyone in the future is to control puberty and not let it do whatever it wants with the body. If a person feels that the hormones that are changing are correct then no intervention is needed but if a person doesn't like the changes then they can control it and steer it into the right direction. I am MAAB and I don't know how FAABs deal with their menstrual cycle. I feel that it is not easy at all.
Here is a shirtless picture of Andres Pejic, age 18 or 19, for comparison, from a 2010 session by photographer Thomas Lohr:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kollektivnye.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F01%2FAndrejPejic-iD-ThomasLohr02.jpg&hash=c0888f5dd9cc7fa5090b7f2246aafeb4224a88df)
Note the lack of feminine chest characteristics. No apparent scars here, as Peky noted in the OP picture.
Although some of Pejic's images have him come off as a woman, the model says he "doesn't want to be a woman, he wants to be, and combine, both genders, because he feels that one is not enough."
Looking at a very large very large version of the recent pic, I don't think he has any scars-- just lots of elastic marks. Most figure models go to the shoot in loose clothing before such sessions. What is obvious, though, is the unmistakable cone shape of the bosoms. He's said in interview that he's not on anything, but if it's obvious something's going on.
Unless he's Peter Pan, his shelf life will be extremely short. It's practically impossible to maintain the boyish androgynous look beyond 25 years, unless you're on HRT or there's an underlying medical condition. I can't see the fuss, personally.
Quote from: Nicolette on June 12, 2013, 09:18:11 AM
It's practically impossible to maintain the boyish androgynous look beyond 25 years...
That's not true for everyone. Different people have different body types. A certain segment of us are "ectomorphic" and tend to be naturally thin. I'm over 50 and at 5'11" weigh only 127 lbs. I've never weighed much more than that regardless of diet or exercise level.
Quote from: Lyric on June 12, 2013, 09:54:12 AM
That's not true for everyone. Different people have different body types. A certain segment of us are "ectomorphic" and tend to be naturally thin. I'm over 50 and at 5'11" weigh only 127 lbs. I've never weighed much more than that regardless of diet or exercise level.
If you're on HRT then that doesn't count, unless you're saying you started HRT recently and maintained a Andrej Pejic look up until then. I'm not focussing on weight. We know that testosterone masculinises skin, hair, muscle and fat distribution. If you've avoided that, not on HRT, then you've done well. I never waited to see.
Quote from: Nicolette on June 12, 2013, 10:14:31 AMIf you're on HRT then that doesn't count,...
I've never been on HRT or any form of chemical feminization. People like me are pretty out of the ordinary, of course, but I've known plenty of others.
While Sheldon's body type designations were originally used to describe men, both genders tend to fall under one of the three categories. Most fashion models probably fall into the ectomorphic category. In woman, it tends too look a bit different because of the female fat distribution, but models tend to be very slender.
It's certainly always seemed to me that my slender frame made me appear much more feminine that males with a stocky or pudgy body type. It's always seemed like people often tend mistake me for a girl/woman whether I was dressed as such or not.
I don't think he used HRT, just gained some muscles. Tho I prefer his earlier skinny look, like myself. His body is a copy of mine, even same height. :P
I've never heard of this person before, but they're gorgeous and fascinating. Wow.
Quote from: Skinny18 on June 24, 2013, 06:06:16 PM
I don't think he used HRT, just gained some muscles. Tho I prefer his earlier skinny look, like myself. His body is a copy of mine, even same height. :P
Yeah that's what I thought. I mean I barely see anything going on with the chest area. Wouldn't call them boobs. I have had pointy cone-shaped boobs since I was 17 and they are certainly way bigger then them. Before I started HRT I was going to get them cut off, but the doctor said it would be okay for a year and they'd grow right back.
I agree with GYLF too about Andre being pretty but kinda masculine looking.
There are prettier girls here on this site.
He's all make up angles and photshop...
And I knoooow a lot if us girls can smoke him hands
Down...how can an fem boy comapre to a full on
Ts girl??
Quote from: xchristine on June 26, 2013, 10:22:03 PM
There are prettier girls here on this site.
He's all make up angles and photshop...
And I knoooow a lot if us girls can smoke him hands
Down...how can an fem boy comapre to a full on
Ts girl??
He has never claimed to be anything but a man.. And a cute guy from the western suburbs of Melbourne he is.
I can't think of another MAN that has been the lead in an advertising campaign for bras.. Nor can I think of many men that will model women's clothes and make them look good - he does it with ease.
I can't imagine a need to speculate on that sort of thing about someone, its simply their business until they decide to tell anything like that, whether they are famous or not.
Quote from: Renee on June 27, 2013, 03:43:44 PM
I can't imagine a need to speculate on that sort of thing about someone, its simply their business until they decide to tell anything like that, whether they are famous or not.
We're woman....we gossip ...
Quote from: xchristine on June 26, 2013, 10:22:03 PM
There are prettier girls here on this site.
He's all make up angles and photshop...
And I knoooow a lot if us girls can smoke him hands
Down...how can an fem boy comapre to a full on
Ts girl??
Uhm... that's like saying TS girls can't compare to cis girls, which isn't true... Andrej is stunning and in my opinion is prettier than most females you see out there. His face is otherwordly, but that's just my opinion...
Regarding HRT... I really can't tell with him, it's possible but I have no clue. He denies it, but I doubt he'd admit to such a thing unless he was intending to transition fully, it'd pass a poor message to people and I don't think HRT should be taken very lightly...
Interesting!
I'vve wondered about Pejic since I saw an article about him.
When I was 19 and 20 I was in the same highly androgynous ballpark. Very slender body, thick long hair, very soft skin etc. Right up until 26 years of age. Sadly, unlike Pejic, I was made to feel like a freak by everyone I knew, especially girlfriends, so I couldn't capitalise on it. I'm pretty bitter about that, especially the older I get, and especially as how the more degraded, ape-like and masculine I look - the more people seem to be overjoyed. Makes me sick.
My body is pushing the masculinization all the way now, so it's one way or the other it seems. I kind of hoped I'd stay where I was.
I wonder how Pejic will age. He would need some sort of intervention I guess.
Men are not designed to stay neotenous. There's a beast in every man waiting to come out.
I'm sorry to hear your youthful androgyny was problemed. I was quite androgynous at that age as well, but I guess I had a much better experience. I had a very liberal and tolerant group of friends. My girlfriend then actually had very short hair while mine was quite long, so we were a very andro couple. She loved my look, though, and we had a lot of fun. My only issues were with jobs and workplace situations, which, in the 1980s, was not so tolerant of gender diversity.
BTW, welcome to Susans, theirrationaldress. I think you'll like it here.
~ Lyric ~
Quote from: theirrationaldress on July 08, 2013, 10:08:20 PM
Interesting!
I'vve wondered about Pejic since I saw an article about him.
When I was 19 and 20 I was in the same highly androgynous ballpark. Very slender body, thick long hair, very soft skin etc. Right up until 26 years of age. Sadly, unlike Pejic, I was made to feel like a freak by everyone I knew, especially girlfriends, so I couldn't capitalise on it. I'm pretty bitter about that, especially the older I get, and especially as how the more degraded, ape-like and masculine I look - the more people seem to be overjoyed. Makes me sick.
My body is pushing the masculinization all the way now, so it's one way or the other it seems. I kind of hoped I'd stay where I was.
I wonder how Pejic will age. He would need some sort of intervention I guess.
Men are not designed to stay neotenous. There's a beast in every man waiting to come out.
Wow, I recognize myself completely in your story!
Except for preventing masculinization by going on HRT, right in time, at 25.
But before the age of 25....my life was made into a living nightmare by people in general.
After HRT my life turned 'into a flowerbed'.... people in general went all friendly and sweet and mild mannered....which I just couldn't understand for the first few years after having endured such agressiveness for being very fem/androgynous.
Developing facial and bodyhair, evt going bald, masculinization in general....I couldn't bear the thought and probably my life had been made even
worse then before...ending in killing myself.
You guys are scaring the c**p out of me right now! o.O
Is it true that your body (especially the face) will drastically change after 25? I'm 21 and like some people here who posted, I look quiet androgynous. (I'm male) I do not have the 'wish' to undergo a surgery or anything. I feel comfortable the way I am. But I want to stay this way. I want to keep looking androgynous.
Is it even possible without hrt or at least antiandrogens? Because I don't think I would get a prescription for those, purely for the sake of 'vanity'.
And please don't try to calm me down or anything, just tell me the cold hard truth.
On topic: I think Andrej is grogeous and yes he might be on hrt. But there is this new model who looks EXACTLY like a girl. His name is Stav Strashko. Google him, you'll be knocked off your socks. He looks so much like Keira Knightley, it's creepy.
Yes it can change. I had essentially a female face my whole life until 27ish, when it started turning androgish masculinish. Luckily I intervened not too long later with Hrt and most of that masculinization was turned back to how it was before. If I had waited a few more years, idk if that would have happened.
I am pretty sure some of the androgynes on this board use HRT to stay in an androg range, you may want to look over in their section and learn more.
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 04, 2014, 10:28:37 AM
You guys are scaring the c**p out of me right now! o.O
Is it true that your body (especially the face) will drastically change after 25? I'm 21 and like some people here who posted, I look quiet androgynous. (I'm male) I do not have the 'wish' to undergo a surgery or anything. I feel comfortable the way I am. But I want to stay this way. I want to keep looking androgynous.
Is it even possible without hrt or at least antiandrogens? Because I don't think I would get a prescription for those, purely for the sake of 'vanity'.
And please don't try to calm me down or anything, just tell me the cold hard truth.
On topic: I think Andrej is grogeous and yes he might be on hrt. But there is this new model who looks EXACTLY like a girl. His name is Stav Strashko. Google him, you'll be knocked off your socks. He looks so much like Keira Knightley, it's creepy.
Sadly that's true for most, including me. When I look back at the photos of me aged 26 I would have had a great transition, by 28 it was all over. I was watching Grease last night , which John Travolta played at 24 and he was very masculine. YMMV
Its funny. UK Stylist magazine did a special on Andrej this months too, and some of the statements that Andrej makes in it are quite contradictory when placed next to this article. For example, they refer to Andrej as she and state, that 'she' prefers to be referred to as female and 'has a female soul'.
Coincidentally, another one of the most popular fashion/girls magazines called Glamour, ran a multipage on Carmen Carrera this month too. The world is going trans crazy I tell you! By the end of the week, we will *all* be celebrities! lol.
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 04, 2014, 10:28:37 AM
Is it true that your body (especially the face) will drastically change after 25?...
But there is this new model who looks EXACTLY like a girl. His name is Stav Strashko. Google him, you'll be knocked off your socks. He looks so much like Keira Knightley, it's creepy.
Changes probably depend a lot on how your body produces testosterone and other hormones. Certainly a lot of males masculinize quite a lot after 25, but it didn't really happen so much to me. My Adam's apple and my hairline are about it for me and I had those by 21. I've always been naturally thin an unmuscular, though.
Stav Strashko is one of what seems to be an endless stream of amazing andro-fem male models working in Moscow these days. He's a little younger than Andrej. He just turned 18 awhile back and he's planning to start college soon, but I hope he continues modeling. He really is quite beautiful, especially since his hair has gotten very long.
Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on March 05, 2014, 04:12:34 AMFor example, they refer to Andrej as she and state, that 'she' prefers to be referred to as female and 'has a female soul'.
Andrej has stated in an interview that she prefers to be referred to with feminine pronouns. Obviously she gets it both ways all the time, though. She also uses the ladies room.
Quote from: Lyric on March 05, 2014, 09:23:14 AM
Changes probably depend a lot on how your body produces testosterone and other hormones. Certainly a lot of males masculinize quite a lot after 25, but it didn't really happen so much to me. My Adam's apple and my hairline are about it for me and I had those by 21. I've always been naturally thin an unmuscular, though.
I'm quiet thin too, however the thing that's the biggest thing for me, is the Jaw and the nose. While I can probsbly learn to live with my nose (or maybe undergo surgery at a certain point) the jaw gets me going. I already find mine to be too heavy for my face, but it's never been really broad or anything, just quiet sharp. But I know this guy and he always had a very delicate jaw. He didn't look feminine though, he really looked like a man's man, just his jaw wasn't very wide. It was sharp and angular, yes, but not necessarily very broad. Quiet small framed actually. Now I've seen him again a few years later, he's now pushing thirty or maybe a little over it and his jaw got REALLY wide. Almost Brad Pitt or Ashton Kutcher like.
Are antiandrogens even able to prevent things like that?
Yes AA can prevent that but living without testosterone can cause a lot of issues in your health...
you have to replace it with somethin...
But yeah its true, the older you get the more masculine you become...
ok YMMV
Quote from: Lyric on June 06, 2013, 11:33:45 AM
I follow Andrej's stuff almost weekly and when I saw that photo I knew a thread like this was going to come up here. I've suspected for some time that he was probably on androgen blockers at least. His feminine appearance is quite striking and he's expressed in interviews that he "isn't very sexual"-- an extremely rare trait for a male in his early 20s. These new photos show definite breast growth, though. As a male of about Andrej's frame and size myself, I can say there's no way a pair of pointers like that can appear without some help. It is possible to get something with suction devices, but these look hormonal to me.
I personally think Andrej Pejic's popularity is doing an amazing amount of good for the public image of androgynous and transgender people. Growing breasts won't hinder that at all. Maybe he'll finally score a Victoria's Secrets contract. ;)
~ Lyric ~
Ever heard of mild gynecomastia? I have a chest just like Andrej's and I take no hormones.
The Mayo Clinic writes:
Gynecomastia is triggered by a decrease in the amount of the hormone testosterone compared with estrogen. The cause of this decrease can be conditions that block the effects of or reduce testosterone or a condition that increases your estrogen level.
Quote from: Rena on March 10, 2014, 07:49:12 PMEver heard of mild gynecomastia? I have a chest just like Andrej's and I take no hormones.
Yes, that might be the case with Andrej, but I'm sure you're aware that is a very rare condition. I just meant it's much more likely that Andrej's breast are not a natural occurrence. I really have no idea and I suppose it's none of my business, really.
Maybe he gained weight at a certain point. It's possible that, if you starve yourself (and let's stop pretending - most models DO eat way too little, Andrej's not an exception) and after you eat a little more and gain weight that your breasts slightly increase in size. I've experienced the same thing. Although I have to say they were not as cone shaped as his, but those might be genetics.
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 11, 2014, 10:13:56 AM
Maybe he gained weight at a certain point. It's possible that, if you starve yourself (and let's stop pretending - most models DO eat way too little, Andrej's not an exception) and after you eat a little more and gain weight that your breasts slightly increase in size. I've experienced the same thing. Although I have to say they were not as cone shaped as his, but those might be genetics.
Starving yourself does effect your hormone levels. Also it could just be because he genetically stores more fat on his chest then an average male. I'm like this as well. These are probably is the most likely reasons for his changed appearance if he hasn't been doing any "supplementation".
If he is taking hrt then good for him. He's found a niche and wants to continue to dominate it. I see no problem with him taking a boost to make him more beautiful/keep his looks.
I just saw this photo of Andre
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi61.tinypic.com%2F2q8qzjd.jpg&hash=07ccc5dfb81f8a7d134f23e158d6d608468bf78a)
From
http://smileinyourface.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/6226-31.jpeg
Noticing the date is around April, 2012. Anyway see the nipple being covered up...? Gynecomastia surgery?
Things that make you go hmmmm.... (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi59.tinypic.com%2F2da0rhg.jpg&hash=3dec7290ff1cd10b0dbb2809c53066d7f81a540e)
It's Andrej in the video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeDzP7rtaQk
Lol. I was sooooo hacked-off and annoyed when I first read about Andrej. I used to be very androgynous and rather pretty when I was younger, and all I got was verbal abuse from randomers, hurtful comments from girlfriends and constant demands for me to eat more/weight-lift more/man up, etc etc. The pressure to be a typical male was almost hysterical sometimes, there seemed to be a panic over the fact that my skin was like porcelain and I had more of a very slim yet toned hourglass figure. Everyone hated it. Even those who supposedly fancied me.
I seemed to make people feel uncomfortable with how I looked. I hated myself. Looking back now I can't believe how I let them all turn me into a recluse who didn't have sex or enjoy my looks because I was so ashamed that I wasn't a "real man". And then I discovered Andre Pejic and Japanese rockstars who are all paid to look pretty and are respected for who they are. And then I got really pissed off. :p
Anywho, if he wants to keep his job I'm sure HRT or at least anti-androgens will be on the menu at some point. He's in his twenties now after all.
I wonder what Andrej is up to right now? I read that she prefers female pronouns now and that she considers herself to be inbetween genders. But if you check her websites there aren't any new pictures of her in "male"-mode at all. And also she's wearing clothes over her chest, which wouldn't really be necessary, unless she had breasts. So maybe she is on HRT now?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F33.media.tumblr.com%2F75a4a6b32c54042af5e3a41adf0772e7%2Ftumblr_n89dpnd4ZG1s0i1x0o1_500.jpg&hash=a033822243ab8dc6ba61c628ebbaac4599886582)
Quote from: 930310 on July 17, 2014, 03:05:05 PM
I wonder what Andrej is up to right now?
From her Twitter stream, she's obviously modeling and socializing as always. She's really not that different from any other fashion model in that way.
Quote from: 930310 on July 17, 2014, 03:05:05 PMSo maybe she is on HRT now?
The only word we have on that is an earlier post in this thread from someone who claims to know Andrej and said she wasn't.
Maybe you're right. Since she's not that "open" about her being/not being on HRT all we can do is speculate...
Does this really matter. Low dose HRT is a legitimate therapy for non binaries. If Andrej is non binary and they benefit psychologically with additional physical and professional benefits then this is a good thing, it isn't a bad thing. Apart from the fact that it causes me intense jealousy!
Safe travels
Aisla
Well now we know! Andreja says that she has identified as TG for some time, has undergone GCS and presumably HRT. She has done well. Should inspire many, as well as raise awareness in the broader community.
http://www.out.com/fashion/2014/07/24/andrej-pejic-comes-out-trans-woman
Model Andreja Pejic Comes Out as a Transgender Woman
BRUNA NESSIF - Jul. 24, 2014
"Model Andreja Pejic, formerly known as Andrej Pejic, has become yet another influential person in the industry to break down the barrier for the LGBT community.
The acclaimed model, who has appeared on covers of Elle and French Vogue, has publicly come out as a transgender woman and announced that she will solely model women's fashion going forward, with the support of her friends, family and agency."
More: http://www.eonline.com/news/563016/model-andreja-pejic-comes-out-as-a-transgender-woman
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I'm honestly slightly disappointed. Pejic is my role model for a man with female appearance. I did all physical transition except srs, my appearance is undoubtedly female but i still proud with my male identitiy, male pronounce and male legal marker. Is there any famous people like me?
Let me get this straight. We're disappointed that a trans woman has allowed herself to be fully female?
Isn't that something to celebrate?
What am I missing here?
All the statements here are very qualified. Most or all are from non-binary individuals who looked up to Andrej as a role model for what non-binary and gender fluid could be. The fact that role model is gone is the reason for the disappointment. That somewhat tempers the celebration - but there is still celebration - that Andreja has now become her fully female self.
Its complicated...
Erin
Not really. She can still be role model. She was him for how long breaking the gender barriers? The main point is when Andrea was Andej, she accomplihsed a lot in the way of shining the light on the so called gender norms. I am really happy for her and wih her well.
Before coming across Susans and the non-binary forum, I had never heard of Andreja before. Upon seeing her pictures showcasing her androgynous body, it gives me inspiration to push towards my goal of achieving a similar body.
Needless to say, non-binary, transwoman or not, she is still very inspiring to me and will continue to inspire me to achieve my dreams. Her transition to female doesn't negate that but that's just me.
Suzy,
I'm not saying that I'm not absolutely happy for them, and that it isn't wonderful that they finally know who they are. All I meant is that they represented something very significant to me: The idea that male and female were just boundaries. I am disappointed that what they stood for was just another front for more dysphoria. And also, I'm sick of transgender models-it doesn't say good things about our community.
I can understand this, that would be like me: someone with a hard binary gender identity, pushing a very non-binary presentation because I was trying to further a singing career, or maybe just trying to find my place in gender.
I could see were someone non binary could get a bit annoyed that it was all a cover for a binary identity.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 25, 2014, 08:55:42 AM
Suzy,
I'm not saying that I'm not absolutely happy for them, and that it isn't wonderful that they finally know who they are. All I meant is that they represented something very significant to me: The idea that male and female were just boundaries. I am disappointed that what they stood for was just another front for more dysphoria. And also, I'm sick of transgender models-it doesn't say good things about our community.
OK. I think I get it.
And I need to say that it troubles me.
From my own personal life, a lot of people have told me how great it is that I, or trans people in general, "break down boundaries" between male and female.
That upsets me. Really upsets me.
Like treating our condition and finding our identities somehow makes a political statement for the rest of the world.
That puts a lot of pressure on us, doesn't it?
I certainly feel it. People, cis and trans alike, want us to transition in such a way that affirms their worldview that it's OK for men/women to express their gender in whatever way they like.
That's unfair to us. Really unfair. We transition because we need to - because it becomes too painful not to show the world and ourselves who we really are. We don't transition to make a political statement or affirm a worldview.
And the fact is that an awful lot of women and men (most? nearly all?) are comfortable embracing at least some of the traditional attributes ascribed to their gender. Those that don't will always feel like they're not part of the "mainstream" whatever that is.
To charge non-binary folk with affirming their choices and providing them with a role model to deliver an it's-OK-for-me-so-it's-OK-for-you sort of message is asking an awful lot of us.
Especially since so many non-binary folk are trying out various presentations that allow us to feel comfortable in our world and in our skins. And so many, like me, end up for reasons of our own opting for a gender expression that fits within the binary mainstream.
I do not apologize for that. It's simply not my job (nor any other non-binary person's) to be the poster person for gender non-comformity.
I do apologize, though, for my rant. This seems to have struck a nerve.
Holy! Good find, Aisla. As I've said before, she's shown the visual evidence of physical transition for awhile. This doesn't entirely surprise me, but am a bit surprised she's already gone through with SRS. That's a bombshell, for sure. I suppose it shouldn't be that big a deal, though, since for her there's never really been a life transition. She's been feminine since at least puberty, I think. I wonder if she'll finally get that Victoria's Secrets contract she's kidded about before? Can implants be the next step? (I hope not.)
I'd like to know how her name is pronounced now. "Andrej" was pronounced with the "j" silent for the most part I think. Maybe Andreja makes the "j" an "h" sound. I'll try to find out.
She's transitioned:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2705179/Androgynous-male-model-took-womens-fashion-world-storm-comes-transgender-woman.html
Suzy,
I certainly meant no offense. I completely agree with you about this notion that we must live our lives openly as examples of how gender can be transcended. Mind you, this is a subjective thing, and some of us do live openly so as to help change the way our world views gender. I count myself as one of these people, but the idea that others should have to follow suit is bogus in my opinion. Andreja has also always been one of these people as well-and their narrative was always a very compelling one. They choose to be a role model of sorts.
With Andreja, it was never presented as an issue of identity, or as a means of questioning their gender. Here was someone who was truly living in between genders, or outside gender entirely-it wasn't due to dysphoria, it wasn't some huge crisis they were experiencing. They simply did as they pleased-male or female, none of it seemed to matter to them. I think the narrative of someone living this way is a very significant one because it does demonstrate that gender is a fluid thing. It's wonderful that they can finally feel comfortable in their own skin, but I simply wish that it was possible for someone to live that way without feeling any sort of dysphoria.
I've been an Andrej(a) fan since she came into the public spotlight. While I was a bit surprised to hear she's had SRS, I wouldn't say I'm disappointed. In fact I'd hoped (and suspected) she would at least be on HRT if just to maintain those beautiful feminine features past her mid 20s.
Regardless of what she does from here on, Andreja has done an incalculable service to all transgender and related persons by doing something that really had never happened before-- to made gender crossing "cool"-- at least to some extent-- in the public eye. Before she came along, a male wearing a dress had long been a cultural joke-- the topic of endless gags and butt of jokes. Andreja has shown more people than anyone before that someone born a male can be the sort of beautiful woman no one would joke about. The trickle down effect of this sort of cultural influence affects the entire society, just as similar processes have occurred in the past that changed racial stereotypes. Public influencers lead the way to social change by example. All of us here at Susan's owe Andreja a great debt, I think.
I'm personally happy to hear she's fulfilling herself and going her own way in life, as we all must. Her path isn't mine, either, but I appreciate her just the same.
~ Lyric ~
Her wiki page was using feminine pronouns for...a while. I don't know why people continued with the assumption that she was NB (though, yes, I know where people got that idea) until just recently at the news of her SRS.
I also just am really hands-off about this kind of thing now because it doesn't legitimately effect me what other trans people do unless they're being douchey.
So...no?
I seem to be the only one who remembers her oft repeated denials..
Not trying to start anything here I just think this sounds a little like genitals defining a person. Isn't this something we do not approve of? She is still the same inspirational person she has always been. :)
Quote from: kelly_aus on July 25, 2014, 04:45:44 PM
I seem to be the only one who remembers her oft repeated denials..
I remember them. They've been in every interview for three years. Guess she's done denying.
I say good for her! Anyone should be able to express themselves however they want, and that includes public appearance as well as "private" appearance. It doesn't matter if they are famous or if they've previously made certain statements. That freedom should never be taken away.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on July 25, 2014, 05:15:14 PM
Not trying to start anything here I just think this sounds a little like genitals defining a person. Isn't this something we do not approve of? She is still the same inspirational person she has always been. :)
It's more like she was a poster person for non-binary. The fact that she was wearing whatever the heck she felt like (and looked good doing it), while being assigned "male" was an example for Non binaries.
Of course I'm happy she's found her place, but she's now a different sort of inspiration now. But then again, "role models" are only such if their life path resonates with your own.
Quote from: luna nyan on July 25, 2014, 05:29:03 PM
It's more like she was a poster person for non-binary.
She still is unless her having GRS negates all the work she did for the non binary community. That would be so wrong on many levels. :)
Honestly, considering that I didn't know who this person was until literally five minutes ago. I'm pretty apathetic about it. I tend to not care all that much about "trans politics" as I call it.
I'm disappointed by the level of 'hero worship' some parts of the community are displaying - especially given her denials over the years.. Some of which were negative towards trans people.
Green with jealousy. That's about it.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on July 25, 2014, 05:31:43 PM
She still is unless her having GRS negates all the work she did for the non binary community. That would be so wrong on many levels. :)
Jessica
I think that all TG folk have more in common than there is difference. Andreja has had a very positive impact on non binary and now traditional mtf narratives. But life being life, the same set of facts are perceived or interpreted differently according to your perspective, hypothesis or paradigm. It is this nuance and the possibility for personal interpretation and identification which provides a very human and a very individual response to Andreja's journey
I suspect that just as many suspected she used hrt before she came out, just as many saw her as a MAAB non binary MTA, others saw someone on an inevitable journey as MTF. In fact there will be now be others who still see a MAAB who is non binary but for a whole range of reasons realises that she saw the best (and most normative) decision, given their life objectives, to be a full binary physical transition
Just what is fact and what is overlaid narrative? We won't know and we can never know. Just as great poets, novelists and public figures give voice to themes and beliefs through their work and their declared narrative, we will never know the truth, their truth. In some cases they may not even know or choose to declare their truth.
It really doesn't matter. The OP's question was a good one. It was a particularly good question for non binaries and for this forum. Perhaps Andreja's journey major benefit will be to encourage non binary, TG and LGBTQI to realise that we have more in common than that which separates us, and that there is much power and opportunity in collective identification and action.
Safe travels
Aisla
Perhaps she has been on a journey, like many of us, and didn't know where she was headed. For many it takes time, and the first destination does not necessarily end up being the final destination. No matter, she deserves praise and support. She has raised TG awareness and this can only be good for all of us.
Safe travels
Aisla
I have not looked at her stuff, but I will say this. If it is not too brazen to comment without the homework.
Anyone of us in the TG community that does what is necessary to feel better and has the guts to go through with it, deserves respect. And gender isn't that static and we keep learning more and more about ourselves as we peel down to our cores, and then hopefully it is the core that is the root of transition.
Blessings.
That is not to say that there is not a loss here to our core identity group or minimize that either.
After I do the homework I'll probably feel that loss, it is as if something went on with one of the GQ's on the vids, I'd feel it.
Just thinking out loud, shooting off the mouth again.
Blessings
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on July 25, 2014, 05:31:43 PM
She still is unless her having GRS negates all the work she did for the non binary community. That would be so wrong on many levels. :)
Not at all. It's a case of I look at her and start thinking is a full binary transition my ultimate destiny... (Queue darth vader here and some heavy mask breathing...). Should I transition, I don't believe my posts here on living as non binary would be invalidated. I have laid out my cards so to speak, and am non binary due to circumstances I have voluntarily put myself under.
To be honest, I do my own thing, and what others do with their lives is more a point of fascination. My previous post on the topic was a generalisation and speculation, and may not have come across says such.
Quote from: Aisla on July 25, 2014, 06:38:18 PM
Perhaps she has been on a journey, like many of us, and didn't know where she was headed. For many it takes time, and the first destination does not necessarily end up being the final destination. No matter, she deserves praise and support. She has raised TG awareness and this can only be good for all of us.
There are so many people who have started out in this section and end up binary, and the other way around.
There may be people who will go back and forth several times. It's the journey, never the destination.
If you feel like you have been let down, consider that you may have invested too much of what you wanted her to be, into your life.
She has done much to raise awareness on her journey. How many other people do you know that have done as much? A handful.
I think it is a nice addition to what she has already done, and now it is binary.
We should all be happy for her, she has done so much of that for us.
Ativan
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 25, 2014, 08:46:39 AM
I get it: the disappointment that the person Andreja appeared to be in the public eye never really existed. There was never a guy walking the runway in women's clothes. The knowledge of her true identity essentially makes her more normative in a sense.
Only that's actually really more a perception. All trans folks of any kind are still massively norm violating just by existing. It's why I sometimes feel a bit weird about the binary/non-binary divide. Trans folks are kind of non-binary by definition. It's what makes us trans.
And for all that she is a she, her history remains. In the same way that it does for us all.
I'm happy for her, after all, didn't she make so many of us happy, and still does?
It's about the journey and hers has done so much for us all in ways that not that many other people could have the same said of them.
How could anyone not be happy for her? If you aren't, perhaps you wanted her to be someone for you just a little too much...
Ativan
Quote from: luna nyan on July 25, 2014, 09:42:09 PM
Not at all. It's a case of I look at her and start thinking is a full binary transition my ultimate destiny... (Queue darth vader here and some heavy mask breathing...). Should I transition, I don't believe my posts here on living as non binary would be invalidated.
This is exactly where I was a couple years ago. I had celebrated my non-binary identity only to find that the most satisfying presentation, when all things were considered, was a highly binary one.
I sort of felt like I was betraying my non-binary friends (quite a few of whom have since also chosen a binary presentation themselves). But after thinking about it and reading a few of Padma's posts about how no non-binary experience is superior to any other, I no longer saw it that way.
Face it, a lot of non-binary folk are that way because our experience living as a member of our birth sex and our natural gender identity have coexisted for so long that they've become hopelessly intertwined.
It's common for the birth assignment to "fall away" once we become more in touch with our internal identity and seem less important, pushing us toward a more binary presentation.
Because non-binary folk are marginalized, some of us get an Orwellian "non-binary good, binary bad" point of view, when neither is superior to or more authentic than the other.
I hope this is making sense.
No, she finally found herself. I'm glad for her. As for myself I wish I had the strenght when I was younger in life to correct my gender. Maybe she will make Victoria Secrets runway.
I certainly was surprised by her transition, but not because she transitioned rather the way the media portrays it. You would think that the non-binary/trans community would know better than to put people in specific categories. If the community is against the non-binary, why are there celebrations that now she is a "she". I am really glad that she had SRS but that changes nothing about her.
A very indicative sentence in the article of how stuck the trans community is with the gender binary is this: "The gender-bending model work perplexed some but fascinated most — always leading to the question about her identity." Whyyyyyy?? Who the hell cares???? male female? She passed for both and anything in between. This is crap journalism. People were intrigued by her looks not her identity. I think that if there is anyone who was questioning her gender, it was the media and the trans community who can't evolve and understand that people possess different capacities of gender.
I hope that she doesn't keep fighting the media who wants her to "choose" a gender.
I'm not sure you can decouple her public persona from her profession. If she were to insist on being non-binary, exactly what non-binary clothes would she model? Also, there almost certainly are some challenges she faced being in that industry, that other people don't have to deal with, like the clothing companies not wanting her as a spokesperson because their executives barely understand transgender, and probably haven't even heard of anything non-binary. Being a model isn't an industry where you can be yourself, it's about being the person that fits some designer or company's image. The clothes you saw her modeling were not generally ones she chose, they were chosen for her. This may have partially been a career move, as was possibly being ambiguous in her previous interviews. That profession is all about image, after all.
I don't fault her for any of this though, her public persona is her livelihood, as it is with any model.
Good for her. Let's just let her live her life. She seems happy now & maybe she can make the Victoria Secret's runway/stage.
Lucky girl
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on July 25, 2014, 05:31:43 PM
She still is unless her having GRS negates all the work she did for the non binary community. That would be so wrong on many levels. :)
Like Suzi pointed out Jessica many of us began our journey in the non-binary forums and later moved into the binary ones as we learned more about who we are. I can name members on this forum stretching back for many years that have done that including me - it is a well worn path. Note that I am NOT saying that everyone does that and I am not invalidating the identity of the non-binaries - after all, they have a cool unicorn forest with fruitcake and bacon and I enjoyed the time that I spent there discovering myself.
The bottom line is that I am very happy for her. However, I also understand the disappointment that some people are feeling by all of this. But none of us know why she had to transition this way - her career undoubtedly was a huge part of that decision as well as other factors. She figured out who she is and she successfully transitioned the best way for herself and we should be happy for her - she is a trans success story.
Everyone has a differrent path and the ultimate goal is ALWAYS to find inner peace and for the pain to end. So yes i am very happy for her since she finally reached her goal.
On another note, i fully understand her in the way she reached it. She helped all our causes and made tons of money doing so. Not one of us can say they haven't wished for a way to the pot of gold at least once. Now i guess it is just maybe time for someone else to carry the torch she held so brightly up till now.
:D
Quote from: Myarkstir on July 27, 2014, 08:25:14 AM
Everyone has a differrent path and the ultimate goal is ALWAYS to find inner peace and for the pain to end. So yes i am very happy for her since she finally reached her goal.
On another note, i fully understand her in the way she reached it. She helped all our causes and made tons of money doing so. Not one of us can say they haven't wished for a way to the pot of gold at least once. Now i guess it is just maybe time for someone else to carry the torch she held so brightly up till now.
:D
I can't say that I didn't expect her to transition in spite of her constant denial, I think she was expressing what we all go through at some point, but given her fabulous looks I can hardly blame her, I'd probably do the same under those circumstances.
I only saw her name and picture somewhere once and thought "That's not easy being in the spotlights, fashion industry is hard work" . I think her well being is more important than expressing strict binaries just to fit in and the comments she made after her come out just strike home to me: She's still the same person, just a different sex who recognizes its important for gender non-comforming people to have a place and feel good
Yeah, pretty soon.. someone's going to say the way someone writes can say whether they have a female or male brain. .. :P
Quote from: Paula Christine on July 27, 2014, 01:57:44 PM
Yeah, pretty soon.. someone's going to say the way someone writes can say whether they have a female or male brain. .. :P
Or whether you like McDonalds hamburgers or salads...my sister-in-law has a guilty pleasure I've come to know while shopping yesterday, filthy burgers :P
Quote from: suzifrommd on July 26, 2014, 08:07:48 AM
It's common for the birth assignment to "fall away" once we become more in touch with our internal identity and seem less important, pushing us toward a more binary presentation.
Right now, I'm still in a muddle about M vs. F vs. non-binary vs. who-knows-what (arguably, I've been in a muddle for 60+ years, but I digress...), but as more things pop up in my psyche like goldfish briefly surfacing in a muddy pond, I have the impression that what I thought was gender-variance (M) or non-binary is going to turn out to be full M2F trans.
But then I wonder: is this because I really want to be full F? Or is it that life is a lot easier if you just choose one of the socially-approved roles than if you try to build a life and a place in society in the middle of nowhere? Things like: not having a standard interaction protocol (e.g., pronouns), so you have to negotiate everything from scratch every time you meet someone. (And bathrooms: which bathroom should a non-binary use?) To be honest, I dread the prospect of 20+ years of non-stop social bushwacking which is what I imagine would come with living the rest of my life as a non-binary. (Actually, to be
really honest, staying in the male role seems like it would be the easiest of all; too bad it fits me about as well as one of those little dog sweaters from the pet shop would.)
Rationally, I think that there's a lot to be said against life as an ISO Standard Female (ISOSF), and if I believe that being an ISO Standard Male (ISOSM) has even more drawbacks, is that because male is, in fact, worse for me than female? Or is it just that I don't see all the drawbacks to the ISOSF role because I've never lived it?
Asche
My thoughts have been running along similar lines. It does feel that there is more scope for a FAAB non binary to express their identity, and less scope, or at least social acceptance, for a MAAB non binary.
Safe travels
Aisla
Good for her!
Damn was my intuition good here... I just noticed that she was phasing out the "male stuff" more and more and just one week after I asked she came out as transgender.
I wish you all the best Andreja!
Quote from: 930310 on July 27, 2014, 04:27:22 PM
Damn was my intuition good here... I just noticed that she was phasing out the "male stuff" more and more and just one week after I asked she came out as transgender.
Yes. This hit the press like a couple of days after I replied to your post before saying she denied being on anything. I wondered if she was reading. ;D
It's spooky isn't it??
Maybe you are Andreja? Or maybe she's a member here? Maybe I'm Andreja???
this actually surprised me! I thought they were intent on playing the adrogyny line, and yet now that I think back it makes sense. :o
Quote from: 930310 on July 28, 2014, 11:53:22 AMMaybe you are Andreja? Or maybe she's a member here? Maybe I'm Andreja???
Ha! Only in my dreams. :D
I wouldn't be surprised if she's read a few Susan's threads. She's said she initially learned about ->-bleeped-<- from the web and Susan's is on of the easiest to find sources of TG info. Based on her Twitter feed, though, I don't think she's much of typist, so she probably doesn't contribute much to things like this. Fashion industry people often tend to be more about looks and actions than words.
I actually wasn't surprise, it just surprise me that it took so long, but the timing of her coming out is perfect for her, she choose to come out when her surgery is now complete and done, which is wonderful for her.
If she had choose to come out before her operation, she would have had her surgery in the full glare of publicity and that would have put enormous pressure on her, but she choose to have her surgery before coming out, which probably made her recovery easier, not having the paparazzi around the hospital where she had her surgery.
Now that she is finally a complete woman, she can concentrate on her modelling career, she is very beautiful, she could win Miss World, she is an inspiration to all women like us.
p
soooo happy for her. she's beautiful
i'd kill to be in her shoes ~
i'm not disappointed at all. she could have lived an "easy" life as a man who just looks incredibly good in female clothing, but she chose to be true to herself. nobody can possibly know what this decision will do to her career, it's definitely not the safest decision as a tiny bit of mystery, like her former androgynity, often helps keep the public's interest. people couldn't criticize when they still didn't know whether or not she even was trans, but now the haters have more than enough to use against her if they want to.
Quote from: Taka on July 29, 2014, 05:31:09 PM
i'm not disappointed at all. she could have lived an "easy" life as a man who just looks incredibly good in female clothing, but she chose to be true to herself. nobody can possibly know what this decision will do to her career, it's definitely not the safest decision as a tiny bit of mystery, like her former androgynity, often helps keep the public's interest. people couldn't criticize when they still didn't know whether or not she even was trans, but now the haters have more than enough to use against her if they want to.
Yeah it took some balls when you think of it!
I'm disappointed that she is being help up as some kind of role model.. She has, in the past, made some very offensive comments in her home town about the trans community there - lucky for her they have never made it to the media, but I'm not the only person aware of them..
Quote from: kelly_aus on July 29, 2014, 07:26:36 PM
I'm disappointed that she is being help up as some kind of role model.. She has, in the past, made some very offensive comments in her home town about the trans community there - lucky for her they have never made it to the media, but I'm not the only person aware of them..
To a degree, it's a reflection of how vapid and shallow society can be. Money, beauty, or power... If you have any of these or all, then you're to be admired and held up as a role model.
Regardless of whether her personal views on the trans community, her profile makes her hard for general public, let alone the trans community to ignore. How many of us have said derogatory things about the trans community as a form of self denial? Hopefully out of self interest alone, she might help on the activism front.
When I see vile discusssions and sometimes downright discrimination within the LGBT community I often think:
"Who needs enemies with friends like these. Jeeez"
This is tame, no worries ;)
I believe that she's been here on Susans since it is the largest community for transgender people online. And maybe you are right with her being more "looks" than "brains" but that doesn't matter very much. The important thing here is that such a public and known person has the courage to come out, which will get much coverage and make more people aware of transgendered persons.
Quote from: 930310 on July 30, 2014, 04:51:40 AM
I believe that she's been here on Susans since it is the largest community for transgender people online. And maybe you are right with her being more "looks" than "brains" but that doesn't matter very much. The important thing here is that such a public and known person has the courage to come out, which will get much coverage and make more people aware of transgendered persons.
Absolutely, and this should be the focus of the bigger picture!
I love Andreja! She seems to be one of those rare few that has not been ruined by the fashion industry. She comes off as smart, kind and down to earth. I'm so happy for her that she came out as a woman and had her affirmation surgery. To be honest, it was only a matter of time since her being trans was always rather obvious, imo.
Mazel Tov, Congratulations, Andreja!
I am not surprised by this news. I've been following her for a long time, and had sometimes wondered if she would ever transition.
She was beautiful when she presented as an androgynous male, and she is absolutely beautiful now as a woman. I am happy that she has figured out where she wants to be.
Shana