and she didn't pull any punches.
After we talked for 50 minutes she told me that in her opinion i am deluding myself in believing i am bigender and that within a few years i'll be faced with the transition or die decision. She didn't push me one way or the other, but she left that on the table.
Wow.
She may be absolutely right. Scary, scary things..... I have to admit that i 1/2 way expected to hear exactly that.
She may be wrong (?)
I told my wife what she said and it didn't go over well.
I've got a *LOT* to mull over for the next few days :-\
Wow...what are you thinking about what she said? That's pretty intense.
I'm not for sure frankly.
She said (riven1's free translation) that it's a biological thing and it will inevitably run it's course, and i'll transition.... or die.
Judging from the posts i've read here i tend to think that she might be correct.
This upsets EVERYTHING in my life, but then again i guess that's a decision that we are all faced with :(
I can't get a read on the wife but it does not look good at this point.
Parallel: I have noticed that some gay people call themselves bisexual for a time before they admit that they are actually gay. But some people are truly bisexual.
Maybe you are bigender, and maybe you aren't. Maybe your therapist is correct and you will need to transition someday, but maybe you won't. And couldn't you be bigender and still need to transition or partly transition? I think that your therapist isn't looking at all of the possibilities. How open is she to the whole idea of bigender?
But only you can decide. Just stay open to the possibility that your sense of your self can change and evolve. The way you see yourself now is not necessarily how you will define yourself in a couple of years. I guess only time will tell.
Quote
Parallel: I have noticed that some gay people call themselves bisexual for a time before they admit that they are actually gay. But some people are truly bisexual.
Ironically I initially thought I was bisexual, then I was convinced I was gay, and now I'm %100 sure that I am Pansexual.
I also thought I was Bigender for a period of time, but then I figured out that my "male" side didn't really exist, it was just a persona I had made to cope with living as male.
It took me awhile to really figure myself out...
So, your therapist may be right, or they might be wrong. Ultimately I don't think your therapist was fair, how she responded is what I consider "Identity erasure".
AgentJ recently was forced by her endocrinologist to go through SRS because her endo believed that non-ops didn't exist, and that it would be harder for AgentJ to continue to live as female while still having male genitalia.
That's erasure of an identity, pure and simple.
If your therapist wants to continue to work for you, I would suggest that she should let YOU explore YOUR own feelings and thoughts, and not suggest that being Bigender is just a phase.
Hugs,
-Skye
Quote from: riven1 on June 08, 2013, 10:25:16 PM
I'm not for sure frankly.
She said (riven1's free translation) that it's a biological thing and it will inevitably run it's course, and i'll transition.... or die.
Judging from the posts i've read here i tend to think that she might be correct.
This upsets EVERYTHING in my life, but then again i guess that's a decision that we are all faced with :(
I can't get a read on the wife but it does not look good at this point.
I don't think she can make claim after meeting you for just 50 minutes. Sure you may reach that point but also may not. A therapist job is not whether you'll transition or not. It's the therapists job to help you make the decision on your own. Sure you could be deluding yourself into thinking your bi gender but you may also be bi gender. And not everybody who posts here was in a transition or die situation. I know some people are but I wasn't in that situation I sat on the fence for years on whether I should transition or not.
But in the end it wasn't about life or death it was about the person I wanted be remembered for when I eventually do die. Would I have reached the point of it being transition or die I'll never know. But I had been deliberately keeping my options open so transitioning was always going to happen no matter what. I was just waiting to gather up my courage to make the leap. In the end this is your decision and your decision alone on whether transitioning is right for you. Just because it was right for me doesn't mean it's right for you. :)
To be honest I'm not too sure what bigender even means; my ignorance.
Therapists obviously differ in their way of treating people. Mine would certainly not push you to go forward but make sure you are comfy with your decisions.
'Forced' SRS sounds totally abhorrent to me and I'm restraining myself from those threads.
Forced transition is the same. We are humans who need help and some guidance to understand the life we have been dealt.
I'm not a pack of cards to be played with.
But again I, from my experience of denial and hope etc, think there is little chance for a trans* person to cope with life without accepting it. How they deal with that acceptance is where I have arguments.
And yes I will qualify that with the opinion that as we accept and progress and our desires and aims may differ.
With that in mind I distinctly remember a comment made to me recently. I was talking to a person and friend who understands this area professionally (trans*) and he was asking about my feelings and development and how I now saw myself.
His comment was, I felt, perceptive. He told me to stop calling myself a trans*woman. 'You were a trans woman, you now know you are a woman'. I have to agree.
I feel you are being given a path that you need to think about. I would look at it as not a command but just the opinion that we really don't have much choice.
There is no going back. I think that is the only reality.
I suspect your wife knows that.
Hugs, my love and my concern for you
Cindy
I agree with Heather. 50 Min is far from adequate to render a well reasoned verdict over such a complex issue.
On the other hand, what was your stated intent in seeing her? Was it hedged towards I need some sort of affirmation or permission to transition? I am doing all these thigs to handle my dysphoria and it is still not enough?
If you wanted a quick verdict, you got it. The odds are some sort of a transition is in your future. I never thought there was for me but over time I found myself living part-time. For as many reasons as there are to go full-time I have just as many why not. So far this is a happy balance.
If I learned one thing over these very difficult years of taking on the beast is not to fixate on the future or where it will end. An extremely difficult task for me. What if-ing things to death is an occupational hazard. The unfortunate result is a failure of being able to life in the moment.
"Transition or Die" may be in the cards at some point in the future. For now I learned other ways of coping, of rediscovering joy, happiness and passion in my life. I am mostly happy being me in my skin.
One cannot control the future any more than you can change the past. The best you can do is form a plan and try to work it. Life like sailing can take you on a far different course than you planned on. My wife is always reminding me of an old sailing adage. It is not about the destination, it's the journey that counts" I sure have wound up in places I never planned on, much less dreamed of, ever being when I started this trip four years ago.
My wife and I have no way of knowing if transitioning to full-time is going to happen. The best we can do is prepare for the possibility of it. Something we didn't have to concern ourselves with five years ago.
Lots of great replies; thanks ladies & guys! When i left her office yesterday I was in full blown panic mode; I've since had a good nights sleep and have calmed down and have come in off of the ledge. I've also had some time to think about what she said and what you all have said and it's all good advice.
Arch - From where I sit today, i'm classic bigender with gender switches based on the context of whatever situation i'm in. However, lately it's taken on a bit of a nasty edge that has me thinking that there is more going on with me. A bigender person is kind of like a genderqueer person in that there is no "end" such as SRS, we just have to learn to live with the flip-flopping, although some kind of transition is certainly possible. You are correct in that i'm definitely evolving.... where i'm going i'm not yet quite sure of.
Skye-Blue - i kind of put the therapist on the spot by asking where she saw me heading in the future given my past, and what I heard her say (but not in these exact words) was that i'd be transitioning or dead in 5 years. It's just her opinion based on her experience with trans people and not a verdict; that's what I asked her for and i'm ok with that even if it did set me back on the couch at the time. I would rather her be frank than have her beat around the bushes. Trying to figure out what road i am on was one of the primary reasons I wanted to go to see a therapist.
Heather - I absolutely agree; a single 50 minute session is just getting acquainted and we've got a lot more road to go down together to try to arrive at a treatment plan that works for me. Altogether I think it was a good experience and i learned a lot of things about myself, some of which I didn't really want to know.
Cindy - a bigender person "flips" between two genders based on the context of the situation that they are in. There is no bell or buzzer that goes off when this happens but my thought patterns change and that's one of the ways that I know that i've switched. Most bigender people cannot control where or when they switch, and i can tell you that sitting in a high powered business meeting with a bunch of alpha males thinking about painting my toenails because i've suddenly switched into girl mode is somewhat disconcerting LOL.....
From reading countless threads here i've come to the same point of thought that you have - you can keep denying it but that doesn't work long term. She gave me a path but i'm not yet convinced that's the right path for me and we are going to chat more about it at our next meeting. I guess that i'm open to where i might be going and if it's inevitable then it will be what it will be. But i also think that transgender people come in all flavors and what may be the right path for most transgender persons not be the right path for me at this time.
JoanneB - My situation is clearly progressing to somewhere; 5 years ago I was blissfully unaware of what transgender meant and 5 years later i'm on hormones, have more heels than my wife does, and have gone out en femme. I saw this progression and I wanted to see a therapist to get a better understanding of whats going on in my head, and where she sees me heading in the future.
About two years ago I was hit with 3 different waves of incredible dysphoria over a period of about 4 months; each time i heard a loud voice in my head that told me "you're a girl" and it went on and on. I was in a full blown switch into girl mode and was thinking that it was time to chunk my 24 year marriage and look into SRS. A few days I was back in boy mode and was wondering what the hell had just happened to me. Those 3 episodes scared the crap out of me, and that's when I found out about low dose HRT and began taking estrogen. Low dose HRT stopped the voice and stopped the dangerous impulses, my gender switching is now more like a gentle breeze than a hurricane. I have been unable to see a therapist until now for various reasons (primarily money & time) and I wanted to get her take on my past 5 years to see where this was leading me. After sleeping on what she said I've decided that she may well be right and we will just have to see what the future holds for me. Like you said preparation for whatever may happen is key, and i laid the foundation for that with my wife yesterday. i haven't had a chance yet to find out what shes thinking today; hopefully she slept on it too and it does not look as dire as it did yesterday.
Thanks again ladies & guys! Your insights have been more than helpful.
It's been said already, but I need to repeat it for anyone who might read this. A good therapist is not there to tell you what to do. Forced transition is a terrible idea. They are there to help you find what you want and how to properly go about getting there. If she told you that death would be the only alternative to transitioning, she sounds like a terrible therapist and I would seek out another one asap. Just my opinion.
Learningtolive, I love most of the stuff that you say. I'm kind of wary of hard opinions about the binary, since when I first started coming out someone told me that I was probably just gay. Riven, I'd say take your time and maybe consider shopping around for different opinions.
Quote from: learningtolive on June 09, 2013, 11:38:07 AM
It's been said already, but I need to repeat it for anyone who might read this. A good therapist is not there to tell you what to do. [. . .] They are there to help you find what you want and how to properly go about getting there.
I can't agree with this enough. I'm always burned up about TV and movie "psychiatrists" who all do talk therapy and tell their clients what their actions and dreams mean. My therapist OCCASIONALLY offers me such an insight, but only when he thinks it is better for me to hear it from him than to work it out for myself. And he has never, never, NEVER tried to tell me who or what I am instead of letting me define myself. Not once.
Maybe your therapist is one who practices a confrontational style, or maybe she is uneducated about how you currently see yourself. Or maybe something else entirely. I don't know all that much about non-binary people myself, but if I were a psychologist taking on such a client, I would sure as hell get up to speed on the concept, and I hope I would ask questions rather than dictating to the client.
I understand what ya'll are saying about the therapist, but what she said wasn't unsolicited; it was an opinion/possibility that she offered only after i asked her a very unfair question about what she saw in my future. It was an unfair question since she had only known me as a client for 30 minutes at best, and to answer it i'm sure that she had to draw on what she she sees with her usual clients, who are probably headed for transition. I'm the oddity in her client list since that is not first & foremost in my mind.
She is right, it is one of the possible outcomes, but i believe that it is not the only one. She has not pushed anything on me as of yet. And yes i was shocked at hearing it (maybe i realized that there was some truth to it?), but like i said i'd rather her be direct and spell out every possibility instead of beating around the bush. I need to hear ALL of it, good or bad.
I will keep an open mind but if after several visits I find that she is pushing me in a direction that I don't believe is right for me then i'll have to find another therapist. And i'm sure that she would agree with that decision.
I think this was just her first impression of you and through time I think either you will realize she is right or she will realize you are right. Or you will figure something out together.
Quote from: riven1 on June 09, 2013, 03:02:58 PM
I understand what ya'll are saying about the therapist, but what she said wasn't unsolicited; it was an opinion/possibility that she offered only after i asked her a very unfair question about what she saw in my future.
A few times, I have pressed my own therapist in this way, and he has never responded with an answer. He turns it around on me and asks me questions. I'm sure that if I'd asked him the same question you did, he would have said, "Let's talk about it. What do you see as the possible outcomes?" And so on.
Riven1, I wish I could say I know nothing of what you are going through.
Exactly one year ago this month, I was trying to get used to the fact that I was androgyne and had to face the fact that the female part of me was going to win.
While I agree with what everyone says about the therapist not yet having enough context to pronounce you MtF, possibility of bias in favor of the binary, etc., I'm reading from what you're saying that independent of her, you have strong suspicions it's true.
Is that right?
You really helped me in those early days. Don't know if I can return the favor but I can tell that the very best thing I did was to run in the direction of my fear rather than away from it.
Sounds like that's what you're doing anyway but I know how easy it is to get derailed by (the very real) fear of the instability that needing to transition can bring.
Good luck. I will be thinking about you.
Quote from: suzifrommd on June 09, 2013, 08:04:30 PM
I can tell that the very best thing I did was to run in the direction of my fear rather than away from it.
I need to remember this when I'm trying to run away from my feelings or (not very successfully) cut them off. Thanks, Suzi.
I don't know how any therapist makes this decision up like that. I mean they could have their suspicions but unless you tell her this... I am kind of against the whole idea of therapists interjecting themselves this way anyway. I think it's basically a game. That said, I know that some of us here initially identified as genderqueer or androgyne or whatever. I went for most of my life living what was sort of androgynous life experience. I think it was pretty much a survival mechanism that was somewhat successful. So bigender or genderfluid would be the same thing. But some people do NOT switch their identities. They do identify as genderqueer or whatever.
BTW, I had this idea that this person, who works for a trans agency thought I was male before i did. I asked him and he said something like "I think that's what you were telling me". So it could be you are telling him, but I don't really like the idea of identifying someone else.
Cindy, I think there are some of us who DO identify strongly with being transgender and that's my case. I don't know as I am very early transition, but I identify as a trans male. I know several people that identify like this esp "out" trans guys.
--Jay
suzifrommd-
I have definitely started to fear that i'm simply in denial and may well eventually go the MTF route. It is a process to work yourself around to that possibility, isn't it? LOL.....
At this moment I don't feel like i need to transition, but then again 5 years ago i didn't feel like i was transgender. Whether or not I like it there is a slow progression at work here, and i see it, and i'm guessing that the therapist sees it also. The progression always wins.
So as with most things in my life i simply don't know and i'm on the wait and see plan. Right now i seem to be bigender with my gender flip-flops that go on, but i accept that in the end she might be ultimately right about me.
She made me an appointment with a doctor to get my meds adjusted and who knows what that will bring. I'm staying on the low dose HRT plan but i think my AA level might get raised.
Frankly, the thought of entering into a full blown transition plan scares me to death. I have a fresh appreciation for those that have gone through the process.
I'm curious about how she came to that conclusion. Were you flip-flopping during the session or trying to side-step any trans issues? Also, it didn't sound like she was stating fact based on your original post. It sounded more like a strong opinion. Maybe it's what you needed to hear, not to force you into a transition, but to make you at least think things through more? I'm not really trying to defend her stance. I'm just trying to understand because I would think those types of responses would be career threatening, so I'm wondering if you misread her intentions.
I felt like my therapist stone-walled me the first visit and I stopped going. Almost a decade later, I was looking for a therapist and actually called her because of it. It was exactly the type of response that I needed because I was dead set on a transition ASAP and I really needed that in your face "Are you sure" response.
Quote from: Emily Elizabeth on June 10, 2013, 08:51:02 PM
I'm curious about how she came to that conclusion. Were you flip-flopping during the session or trying to side-step any trans issues? Also, it didn't sound like she was stating fact based on your original post. It sounded more like a strong opinion. Maybe it's what you needed to hear, not to force you into a transition, but to make you at least think things through more? I'm not really trying to defend her stance. I'm just trying to understand because I would think those types of responses would be career threatening, so I'm wondering if you misread her intentions.
I felt like my therapist stone-walled me the first visit and I stopped going. Almost a decade later, I was looking for a therapist and actually called her because of it. It was exactly the type of response that I needed because I was dead set on a transition ASAP and I really needed that in your face "Are you sure" response.
Emily-
You know you might be right; i had the same thought later on about it. If she was trying to get my attention she succeeded; I was honestly so stunned by what i heard her saying that i think i missed some of it. I went in thinking no way and left thinking hmmmm maybe?
I was brutally honest with her and didn't try to side-step anything; i knew that going in and trying to play "fool the therapist" was not going to help me much. I don't think that I was flip flopping during the session but i could have been subtly swaying back and forth to some degree; thats my usual state when i'm not in a full blown gender flip to one side or the other.
I took it as a strong opinion, based on her experience with other people similar to me. I WILL be sure to ask her on the next appointment to clarify for all of us.
I forgot about this thread, so i'll post an update.
I did ask her about what she said and what she said was that looking forward it was a possibility that i "may" get to the point of suicide if I don't address the situation - she did not say that i "would" get to that point. Fair enough - I asked a direct question and she gave a direct answer. I was so wigged out by things that she had told me earlier in the conversation that I clearly missed the "may" part. I was overwhelmed.
She is convinced that i'm a transsexual after reviewing everything, and i have to admit that she's probably correct. I have been turning this over and over in my mind for the past two weeks and it's clear to me that i'm in major denial right now. Hey, maybe if i keep denying it it will go away, right? LOL.... My next appointment on Saturday is going to be interesting because i'm going in with an open mind this time.
I have no idea of where i'm going from this point, but i'd guess that i'll be spending a lot more time here with you fine girls and guys.
~Eva
I've been there, my friend. My reading of your therapist's reaction is similar to yours. A little presumptuous to predict suicidal eventualities, but she has you thinking about the right things.
I had a similar experience. It wasn't a therapist, it was the MtF members of my support group who were convinced I was one of them. They turned out to be right despite how much I didn't want them to be.
Despite the resulting problems since then, genuine living has been more than worth it.
Quote from: riven1 on July 25, 2013, 09:22:39 PM
I have no idea of where i'm going from this point, but i'd guess that i'll be spending a lot more time here with you fine girls and guys.
I'm here, Eva. Always willing to listen.
Quote from: suzifrommd on July 25, 2013, 09:36:00 PM
I've been there, my friend. My reading of your therapist's reaction is similar to yours. A little presumptuous to predict suicidal eventualities, but she has you thinking about the right things.
I had a similar experience. It wasn't a therapist, it was the MtF members of my support group who were convinced I was one of them. They turned out to be right despite how much I didn't want them to be.
Despite the resulting problems since then, genuine living has been more than worth it.
I'm here, Eva. Always willing to listen.
Thanks Suzi; I know that i'll need my friends going thru this and you're one of them :)
Quote from: riven1 on July 25, 2013, 09:22:39 PM
I forgot about this thread, so i'll post an update.
I did ask her about what she said and what she said was that looking forward it was a possibility that i "may" get to the point of suicide if I don't address the situation - she did not say that i "would" get to that point. Fair enough - I asked a direct question and she gave a direct answer. I was so wigged out by things that she had told me earlier in the conversation that I clearly missed the "may" part. I was overwhelmed.
She is convinced that i'm a transsexual after reviewing everything, and i have to admit that she's probably correct. I have been turning this over and over in my mind for the past two weeks and it's clear to me that i'm in major denial right now. Hey, maybe if i keep denying it it will go away, right? LOL.... My next appointment on Saturday is going to be interesting because i'm going in with an open mind this time.
I have no idea of where i'm going from this point, but i'd guess that i'll be spending a lot more time here with you fine girls and guys.
~Eva
We all do that at some point. The "I'll wake up and be 'normal' wish is pretty strong.
If I can say one thing from my journey is that I also denied stuff for a very long time. I also could only see the impossibility of my situation when the transition word was ever brought up. The sheer horror and fear that I may 'have' to present as a female person in the daily world was too much.
It was impossible.
Funny once I accepted that I was me and that me, Cindy, was my core identity it all fell into place. I was on a train track that I just had to follow. It was as if when I accepted that I am Cindy, then no one else's opinion was relevant anymore.
I had to be me, and the barriers and fears just dissipated. I no longer cared what others thought.
I was reminded of it today. I was at a forward planning meeting for the company I work for. It was a high powered meeting CEO, deputy etc were there. I had to present to them..
I wore a dress that was midthigh and knee-high boots with about 2 inch heels. I looked hot (I thought) but professional as well.
I have a male voice and everyone in the room knows I used to present as a guy.
There were no s->-bleeped-<-s, there were no laughs, there were no ignoring or looking down at me.
At coffee and at lunch people sought me out to talk to me with respect and interest in my opinion.
I reflected that I thought just 12 months ago that this scenario was impossible. I also realised that I'm given more respect from my colleagues than 'he' was ever given.
I am not trivialising this journey; it is tough and it takes its toll.
But it can be done.
One thing that has helped me enormously are my sisters and brothers here. We are a family, and we are family for you in your journey.
Hugs and have a safe trip :-*
Oh, and do remember to 'smell the flowers' along the way :-*
Cindy
Cindy, that is an inspiring story. Thank you!
i have also come to the same realizations that Cindy did :)
It all makes sense. I cannot stop moving towards transition. Some get there quickly. Others take a slower journey, like me, but I cannot stop the movement. For me, suicide has never entered my mind. Life is already too short too precious.