When I came out to my parents, they took it badly to say the least. One thing I had forgotten my dad had said until now was having to prove myself as a man. I can't remember what we were doing, it must of been an arm wrestle or something (my dad has never ever hit me) and I lost and could barely keep my strength. He then said "You say you want to be a man but you're going to have to fight a lot harder than that if you're going to prove to anyone you're a man". At the time this was a minute thing in comparison to everything else that was said. He's completely understanding now (or appears to be) so it's all cool. I was just thinking though, do you guys ever feel like you have to prove your masculinity? I've been brought up that men can cry and don't have to be the macho man so it came as a shock what my dad said. I don't feel like I have to be uber strong to be a man, I can be a little weakling who cries at sad films but still feel like a man. I hate when people expect men to be the big macho man when they don't have to be. Do you guys feel like this sometimes?
Guys are well known to obsess over masculinity (you have to be strong, not cry, like to fight, etc.) for most of my life I had to pretend to be male...I couldn't get it right because I just wasn't male.
That's the male world for you...alpha males vs geeks and average guys...
And I think your dad is confusing gender roles/gender expression with gender identity. My best friend is a trans guy and he self identifies as an effeminate gay guy, that's who he is so he expresses himself in that way.
I'm a trans girl (I don't like the word woman :/) who doesn't like overly feminine clothing, but I still want to dress in a feminine way. Regardless I am still female.
You are who you are...and I feel for you, it sucks being invalidated and held to ridiculous standards of what it means to be your gender.
I do feel this way sometimes. I live with male roommates, and they compete on pretty much everything. I have never seen the pack order thing on such obvious display before, and I find myself feeling like I have to step in sometimes and prove my own worth in whatever unspoken display is happening at the time, or it will delegitimize who I am in their eyes somehow.
About what your dad said Joey, that may have been his weird way of trying to reach out and relate to you as a son. I think the relationships between fathers and sons are drastically different than fathers and daughters, and one way this shows is a dad's attempt to 'toughen up' their sons. It is good he is accepting now, anyways.
I used to struggle with that a lot when I was about 11-13, before I'd even realised that I was trans. I felt like I constantly needed to prove that I could be just as good, or better, than the boys, and that involved shutting out all of my external emotions (oh the trouble that's caused me over the years, it's not easy to unlearn), and violence (even more trouble that caused me.) Beating people up in order to get them to recognised that I was just as strong and masculine as them worked, but it didn't make me any friends. Over the years I mellowed out though, and they accepted me as pretty much one of them despite being forced to wear a skirt, and the only violence was in fighting for fun. Literally every lunchtime for two terms I'd fight with one guy in particular for our amusement/everyone elses. Even if I ended up losing, which happened a lot if anyone else who was much bigger than me decided to join in, I'd just back up again and not give in. Except when the boy who'd had brain surgery and wasn't allowed to play sports tried to join in, I wasn't going to be responsible for landing him back in hospital.
That's definitely not the way to go though.
I think people expect us to be more macho because of who/what we are. They can't see the point in us transitioning if we're still going to be feminine to any degree, which obviously isn't the case. Now it just all comes second nature to me, I can hold my ground in an argument over PS4 vs xBox one (PS4 all the way! lol), even if I can't kick a football or know the specs of every Audi out there. People just seem to feed off your vibes, and I was called 'he' several times by someone who knew me by my birthname until people kept always correcting him, the only reason I can think of was that he subconsciously saw me as male through and through.
In terms of physical strength, don't let it dishearten you, us pre-T guys have got a natural disadvantage in that we're not able to build muscle as easily as people with higher T in their bodies. Arm wrestles are more about technique than anything else anyway.
EDIT: I completely agree with spacerace as well, a lot of guys like competing and proving themselves to each other. Who can make the stupidest noises, get the most wrecked at a weekend, etc. Everything's competitive to them, especially if there's a bit of a disadvantage like being younger/older than the others. I see this a lot at college. But not all guys are like this, and it's mostly a teenage/young adult thing from what I've seen.
I'm 51, the world has sensitive, crying men now, but it sure didn't back then. Times have changed, but your old man may have memories of the old mindset. The "get in there and fight even if you know you're gonna lose" way of doing things. I think I'd like your Dad, you know, for a young guy, that is! Hugs, Devlyn
I feel worried that this is going to be expected of me. Like they won't believe in I'm a guy if I don't or something. So far, my problem has been with people not thinking I'm a guy anyway though.
I also feel kind of like this whenever friends treat me like I'm more effeminate than I actually am.
Thanks for all your opinions guys! Yeah I don't think my dad meant anything by it and like I said in my family we're brought up that men CAN cry and show emotions and we don't have to be the strongest. I do think that he was trying to toughen my up for what I would face later on in life being a male in a weird and roundabout way. I love my dad, and I know he loves me and would never do anything to hurt me on purpose. I'm lucky to have him and like spacerace said, it may of been his way of trying to make me tough. It was just strange because our family isn't like that.
I do feel like us guys have a lot to prove in terms of masculinity, even though we shouldn't have to prove anything to anyone. I for one know that I cry at sad films, I'm not the toughest guy around and I'm never going to have huge muscles, but that doesn't bother me and I'm proud of that; something my dad has taught me to be. I'm an emotional guy and if people can't accept that guys can cry and aren't all macho then, to be honest, that is their problem.
When I was 15 was when I started really changing physically...cut my hair off, bought guy's underwear, etc. My dad was very masculine and while he never accepted me as a guy he didn't hesitate to rough me up or challenge my emotions. I remember my grandma dying (I was there when it happened) and my dad cornered me in the hospital. He told me I had to be strong for my mom and to not cry in front of her. I did as I was told and never shed a tear. A few weeks after the funeral my dad told me that he was proud of how strong I was. That was the only time in my life I can remember him saying he was proud of me.
Granted my dad made me really strong emotionally but then again sometimes it would be nice to be able to feel things. Strangely it's easier for me to cry about unrealistic things like movies then it is to show emotions about people I know. When your dad challenges you it can be a good thing. Maybe even a bonding experience. Just make certain that he doesn't try to take it too far physically or emotionally. There are all types of men on this earth and you're not obligated to be like any man other than yourself.
Feeling the need to prove myself used to be a major problem for me. I don't think it was proving my masculinity so much as it was proving that I'm not a woman that was the problem. A male is still a male regardless of how masculine he is but being that I'm stuck in a female body I used to feel as if I wasn't male at all. I felt like I had to work twice as hard to prove that I was male because of how my body showed otherwise.
My parents are also very backwards in the way they see the world so they contributed to a lot of my emotional and mental emasculation. I was always taught that men are strong and superior while women are supposed to be weak and submissive. I resented the fact that no one saw me for the boy/man I really was and I hated my parents' notion that females are the weaker gender so not only did I rebel against the female stereotypes that were placed on me, I also played up some of the male stereotypes to extremes.
That led to me proving myself in the worst ways. I was always aggressive, constantly getting into fights with people or provoking people just so I could prove my strength or superiority over them. It's gotten me into a lot of trouble quite a few times but thankfully I was always victorious in the fights I picked.
When I realized I was transgender I learned that there would be options out there for me to change my body so I wouldn't constantly need to play into those male stereotypes anymore just to get people to recognize that I'm male. It also made me realize that there are people out there who will see me for who I am regardless of what my body shows them so I really don't need to prove anything.
I still struggle with feeling like I need to prove myself as a man sometimes but not nearly as much as I used to. I'm a lot more laid back and comfortable with myself now.
Yup, I'm struggling with this issue too at times. I have 3 brothers and no sisters, so yeah...A lot of wrestling and proving is going on at times. And it makes my dysphoria worse. I am not only cursed with being tiny, but also with not being born a man. My brothers are all normal, and freakishly strong, so I always lose. It's mean. Still, when I am challenged, I go in there and try my best. I don't struggle because I can't prove my manliness because I'd always lose, but I struggle because it flares up my dysphoria. I don't have to win, I just want an honest chance, like all guys. And have fun with wrestling and the likes. But because it rubs my nose onto the fact I'm tiny and have a girl body, I have to avoid it.
Other than that, I try not to be competative. Guys who are always trying to show how manly they are, are usually very insecure about themselves. I mean, why else would they compete all the time to prove their manliness? So when someone calls me a wussy or something, I'm like 'Yup, that's me! I don't have to flaunt my co-...rooster all the time to show people I am a man.' I know that on the inside I'm a guy, and the outside will hopefully follow soon.
I'm gay, and gay men are known for being less competative than straight guys. I think they are more laid back about it. My oldest brother is also gay, and he never really joins in on the manly proving. He just shrugs it off. I'm like that too, and for me, its a good reason to not always want to compete. "I'm too fabulous for that!"
I have never had any female friends, but occasionally I do think that female company might be slightly less exhausting than that of males. Even though we're all good friends, it's a constant battle of one-up-manship. Constant light-hearted insults, lots of scuffles, lots of teasing and sabotage. And if you can't take it then they exclude you. I've found that if you expect them to treat you as a male, then you have to be able to take it all in your stride becuase they're not going to make exceptions.
I remember some days, long past now, I used to get quite upset at being called a lesbian and at being mocked for various other things. It was a weakness and, having discovered it, they preyed on it incessantly and it almost crushed me. Now days I understand they they don't mean to upset anyone - in fact they seem to genuinely enjoy insulting each other. It's all a dominance act and no longer fazes me.
Even though I'm not yet out IRL yet, I definitely relate.
When I got to highschool I sought out the guys, just like elementary school, but they made fun of me, tested me, etc. like guys do. At that time I was too insecure of myself to take a stand, and I took them WAY too seriously (previously I never really had to 'prove' myself, just make sure they knew I could take a hit, wasn't afraid of dirt and liked doing the same things. AKA: just being myself), I developed a slight hatred against guys, cause they were always 'saying stupid things', now I see they WANTED me to take them back all the time. They wanted to see how much I could take (which wasn't much), and if I had just taken a stand they would probably have accepted me.
After that I had a really 'female' phase (NOT 'feminine' but definitely identifying as a tomboy, and not a boy), and I only got back to my male self as my confidence started to grow again.
Though I have some "feminine" traits (so says society, lol!), but a lot of those things, I think, are either taught or not suppressed, like with most cisguys (say; emotions), and I feel either way like I should change those to become 'more of a man', but the other way... I also think "WHY!? What does it matter if I'm not a stereotypical guy? And all those things are just stereotypes after all!"
Personally I also just HATE the company of super competitive 'cock-y' guys who do crazy things just to 'be part of the group', I'm not like that myself either. WHY should I even prove myself, eh? Friendly/positive competitions are good, but not when it starts to take over group matters. I am who I am, and I see no need to 'prove' that I am 'worthy' to be me.
Most of my male friends are either not competitive either, OR are with other guys, but not with me 'cause I'm a "girl" DX
What I hate most is that people see this body before they see me, and I would never have to 'prove' that I REALLY am a guy if I were BORN as one!
As others have said, part of male socialisation involves constantly being challenged to prove one's masculinity. If your dad is starting to behave in this way towards you, I'd take it as a sign that he's starting to accept you for who you are.
It's up to you to choose whether to allow yourself to be subjected to this kind of pressure, and to choose which bits you'll accept. I was challenged by my boss a couple of months ago for buying a drink that looked a bit effeminate. He said something along the lines of: "you're a guy now, and guys don't drink things like that". Well, as you know I'm gay, so I just said to him "guys who like other guys do drink things like this!" and I sashayed out the room... ;D
In regards to being able to lift things or showing athletic ability, or really anything physical, yeah I feel pressure to prove my masculinity. I don't think it has anything to do with being trans though. I just don't want people to think I'm weak or incapable.
As far as proving masculinity by conforming to certain gender stereotypes, such as pretending that something didn't affect me emotionally or talking about women like they're objects, I don't feel the need to do that. If someone thinks I'm less of a man because I get teary-eyed at pretty much every movie with a touching moment, that's their problem, not mine.
I think this all is a bunch of ridiculous "machismo" thing that still goes on. Yeah it goes on. I don't intend to participate in it though.
I don't know if anyone caught it, but Chris Hayes on his show on MSNBC gave a thanks to feminism to be able to be a dad (not have a child) but participate in fathering. I don't have children, but I like mentoring kids. There are lots of ways to be a man and many of them
have nothing to do with being traditionally machismo ish.
--Jay
The masculine image of men, and the bravado that sometimes goes along with it, is nothing new.
There is a story from the history of the Spartans, about a boy in training to become a soldier. They were taught to survive by any means, including stealing - but they must never be dishonored by being caught. The story goes that a Spartan boy had stolen a fox and had it concealed under his tunic.
When he was questioned, he denied the theft. All the while the fox was biting and clawing at his body. It was better that he died from being disemboweled, than being shown up.
For someone like myself, and many of the MtF members who served in the military, or did other hypermasculine things with their lives, it was a way of trying to meet those sorts of societal expectations and live up to the ideal. In my case, I was wholly unable to do it, and almost died trying.
That does not mean that men don't have a sensitive or caring side. They just don't show it too often.
Ugh. This is among my top five reasons for transitioning into a female body/role. I can't stand when my friend's friends meet me - the first question they ask is always something along the lines of, "Bro, you're awfully scrawny. How much do you lift?"
"Why do you drink water? Are you an athlete? Trying to pass a drug test? Don't you want a beer?"
"<Insert sports talk that I couldn't comprehend if I tried>"
I'm not stereotyping. These are things I've been asked, and am asked regularly - by guys you would never expect to care about such trivial things. What's worse is that nobody ever seems to even be following when I try to explain my differences, whether they be something as simple as general health or caring for my skin. Society dictates that males fall into one of a few roles, and never stray from them - the jocks, the technicians, the nerds, and the musicians/artists. Everyone else is "weak" or "gay" for trying to express themselves, like how girls do with clothing, hair, or accessories, and that apparently makes them less of a person.
I did discover something that's helped me a bit, though. People don't ask what they don't want to know, so being a bit flamboyant has actually made my life easier. I've started rolling up my jeans to expose my shaved legs, and people seem to "get it". No stupid encounters, just shocked looks trailing me. I find that a bit easier to deal with :/
TL;DR - Be both yourself and the person you've always wanted to be, and don't let the jackasses stop you like they did for me. You have nothing to prove to anyone - only wonderful traits to offer. If others can't see that, that's their problem. If it makes you feel any better, those who try to make you conform will probably have a midlife crisis about their own conformity later :p
Quote from: AlexanderC on June 18, 2013, 07:21:41 PM
Who can make the stupidest noises, get the most wrecked at a weekend, etc. Everything's competitive to them, especially if there's a bit of a disadvantage like being younger/older than the others. I see this a lot at college. But not all guys are like this, and it's mostly a teenage/young adult thing from what I've seen.
Unfortunately, this does not seem to always dissipate with age. The guys I live with and my other friends are in their late 20's and in professional careers. I know it can also happen in workplace environments of all types, especially with guys who are in jobs where an element of competition among peers is involved. I would say that includes women as well, but really this one of those issues that can silence female voices in many circumstances because gender roles don't encourage women to behave the same way.
It certainly does seem to center around those who feel like they have something to prove as was mentioned though, and people who are good at their jobs and secure in themselves may not succumb to it as easily, so that is something. Going forward I will totally use this as a reason not to worry about masculinity competitions.
I've always enjoyed the good nature ribbing and comradery with guy friends. From my experiences it has always been in good fun.
On the flip side I always had problems hanging out with females. Never cared to hang out at the mall, gossip about whose dating who, discuss everybody's business, or watch "chick flicks". Yeah, I talk a lot on here...because it's kinda required to be involved but anyone who knows me in real life will tell you I'm a rather quiet guy. I kinda live in my own head. Females on the other hand talk too much, lol. No misogyny implied here, just telling the truth according to myself.
It sometimes bothers me when people question my masculinity, but I vastly, and I can't underemphasize that enough... vastly (lol) prefer the company of women over men. So if I'm around guys and I feel uncomfortable, I go find a woman to talk to. Maybe some people question that when I'm gone, but I don't care. Women have always, for the most part, found me to be nice and enjoyed my company. But now that I am seen as male, they seem to appreciate it even more. =/ Go figure.
I guess what I'm getting at is that it's all about what makes you comfortable. There's nothing to prove. Besides that, you can tell when guys (or anyone for that matter) are over-compensating, and no matter how much people may comment/tease, I can tell you for sure that they'd prefer someone confident and comfortable in themselves over someone who tries too hard to be someone they're not.
Quote from: spacerace on June 19, 2013, 06:51:26 PM
Unfortunately, this does not seem to always dissipate with age. The guys I live with and my other friends are in their late 20's and in professional careers. I know it can also happen in workplace environments of all types, especially with guys who are in jobs where an element of competition among peers is involved. I would say that includes women as well, but really this one of those issues that can silence female voices in many circumstances because gender roles don't encourage women to behave the same way.
It certainly does seem to center around those who feel like they have something to prove as was mentioned though, and people who are good at their jobs and secure in themselves may not succumb to it as easily, so that is something. Going forward I will totally use this as a reason not to worry about masculinity competitions.
Not in late twenties no, but I've never seen anyone doing good it in their thirties, going on forty.
alright ill chime in here. There is often competition among men about pretty much everything. I my opinion it is less obvious with quite a few things: age, intellect and comraderie. I can say that as a nearly thirty year old the whole competition thing gets a bit less intense. Yeah, it's there but we dont get as obsessed with it and it doesnt seem as important. I have also found that the more intellectual the setting, the less competition there is, although there can be some about who is the most intelligent but again it does not seem as agressive. Also among men who are good friends the competition of proving your masculinity is not as intense because the order is already established. I think of the guys that i am good friends with and there are situations where they are top dog and situations where i am top dog. I try not to rub anything in there faces though because i am 29 and they are all in the 40's. we have better things to do than have pissing contests all day.
My last piece of advice is to try to pick something and excell at it. So that no matter what, you will always have that area of sucess. Mine is probably my weightlifting. Among my friends it is clear that I have the biggest muscles. But my friends all excell at other things. The dude that i would consider my best bud is about 6 feet tall and while he doesnt always rub it in, he is quite proud of it and i think he sees it a way of being superior. So yeah, it is there but lots of guys dont get caught up in it. Apathy is also seen as a way of being an alpha male. Just not caring about another guy's behavior.
QuoteOn the flip side I always had problems hanging out with females. Never cared to hang out at the mall, gossip about whose dating who, discuss everybody's business, or watch "chick flicks". Yeah, I talk a lot on here...because it's kinda required to be involved but anyone who knows me in real life will tell you I'm a rather quiet guy. I kinda live in my own head. Females on the other hand talk too much, lol. No misogyny implied here, just telling the truth according to myself.
I have four close female friends, and -gladly- none of them are like that either. The only really feminine thing they, or we, do is chat a lot. Gladly not about fashion or stuff like that though, as I have NO interest in that whatsoever.
I don't like "guy-guys" who constantly are acting like idiots to prove themselves, but neither do I like "girl-girls" who only chat about fashion, etc. I prefer to company of either tomboyish girls or at least girls who can be feminine without making it bigger than it has to be, or just friendly guys who feel secure enough about themselves not to constantly have serious group battles going on (like I said, I do like competition for fun, as long as it's not too much and the loser isn't ridiculed till his death or something, lol)
Bit difficult to describe. But whether I can get along with someone is more determined by his/her characteristics, hobbies, interests, social interactions, etc. rather than his/her gender.
When I was young many guys felt I had to prove myself to be masuline enough and boyish enough for being a man.
people would comment on me like, boys do this or girls do that.. for small simpel things
I learned the hard way that its really a waste of energy.
guys prove themself because there cowards its like when guys have yap about getting laid all the time to prove themself there not virgins.
I have stopped proving myself because if people want me to get provements for who I am then there not accepting and enver gonna acept me fully.
before when I was younger other guys could pretty much play around say "oh yeah your a real boy, but then if I did something out of sudden it would be "no thats so girly"
if guys today they would go somewhere like that wanting me to prove myself I would simple say no I dont ask you to prove your gender why should I?
I'm pretty sure the only proof you can offer is to just be yourself and present as a man. I spent my whole life trying to act like the other guys did, but I always fell short. When you try to fake it, you come off as trying to fake it eventually and people stop seeing a man and start seeing someone that's trying to cover up some femininity that they feel ashamed of. I worked really hard to appear as this fearless dominant personality. I got fearless dead on because of all my extracurricular activities, but dominant did not shine through. I constantly had to correct people that told me I was submissive because it seemed like I was trying too hard to be dominant. Eventually I just gave in and let the cat out of the bag.
Hey guys, I hate to barge in on ya'll but may be able to help on the subject. Just be yourself, respect and cherish whoever you love, don't worry about stereotypical behaviour and way above all the other stuff be your own man and you'll do fine. If you define your own masculinity, you may catch crap but believe me other men will respect you for it it. As for catching crap from other guys, that just happens and it's all in good nature. I use to always catchcrap because I chose wine or girly drinks instead of beer, smelled more girly than guy, privey to girl's secrets more than they were (this actually made them a little jelous) but no one ever questioned my masculinity. Joking about it sure but I was joking about theirs too.
When it comes to stereotypical masculinity, its all for show and hardley ever really felt inside. Hope this helps a little.
I'd like to mention one more thing: we went through something very similar whilst growing up female-bodied. We were constantly pressurised to conform to female standards of appearance and behaviour. Any time someone picked on you because your hair is the 'wrong' style; or you're wearing the 'wrong' clothes; or you like the 'wrong' music; or you haven't got a boyfriend; or whatever - that's the female equivalent of exactly the same thing. Girls pressurise other girls prove their femininity. The tests and benchmarks may be different, but the social pressure is very similar.
I don't know about you, but I adopted whatever female behaviours etc. I needed to in order to stop them from picking on me, and I told them where to stick the rest. I've now discarded most of those learned female behaviours in favour of my own natural behaviours, but I've gained enough strength from telling girls where to stick it that I can now do the same to guys. Just like I did with my boss.
My post was actually an accident. I hadn't noticed this was the FtM forum when I did it and I normally try to refrain on those. But since I'm here again, Jess42 is right too. Men pick on each other a LOT. You just have to stand firm and not let it get to you. Easier said than done, I know.
Most of my friends are women, but not over top feminine and most of my male friends are all laid back. About the only competition is at parties. Who can drink or smoke the most and as tiny as I am I'm able to drink and smoke the most and people still think I'm not intoxicated enough because I always act sober. They did a wrestling match ONCE. I was afraid I'd be ridiculed for not wanting to particapate yet when I declined they were cool and a just said "yeah you're too chill for this" and left it at that. This is a group that doesn't know I'm FtM. They've never questioned me and even if we meet new people if the new person asks what I am when I leave they say I'm a guy.
Quote from: Simon on June 18, 2013, 07:37:12 PM
There are all types of men on this earth and you're not obligated to be like any man other than yourself.
I think that is the best way to put it. You are your own man, it doesn't matter how everyone else is or how anyone expects you to be. It just matters who you are.
In the great words of Dr. Seuss, "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."