She seems to think that the mental abuse from my mom is a problem and that we have to work through that first. She says I go to pain because that's what I'm comfortable with, and that's why I bind and want top surgery. Also that I cut off my hair so people wouldn't pull at it. She also is saying that any physical pain in the breasts is really emotional pain? If they hurt they hurt...
She made me tear up a lot, I don't even know why. Maybe she thinks I will be all better once I relive my childhood and let go of the mental abuse from my mother. She says it can take one 2 hour intensive session or longer.
I mentioned to her when I was little I would run around naked but at puberty that stopped. She says it is because of shame (duh don't like my body) and that all humans feel shame so that's why we wear clothes. There was some random reference to Adam and Eve and the whole time she was explaining it I was like "those names are familiar, probably some religious BS". I thought we wore clothes to survive the weather?
Also she said breasts are a symbol of nurture and that I don't like mine because I wasn't nurtured when I was growing up. Nurture is in the actions you do, not what parts you have. I don't see how getting mine removed is anything related.
I was also given some questions to answer and I have to use experiences from my childhood.
What is the emotional pain that is leading to me to want to remove my breasts?
Why do I not feel comfortable with my body? Mental pain - emotional pain.
She wants me to connect with my inner little girl to answer these also...
Is this typical to be told such things?
Sounds like a LOT of Freudian mumbo-jumbo. I don't like the sound of all this. Sounds like someone who thinks they might be able to "cure" you. As we know here that isn't possible. If you are transgender, the "cure" is to transition. There are some transgender people who do not transition medically, but you need your head and wits about you for this. I think that you need to see a gender therapist. Don't know where you are, but here are some references:
http://www.lauras-playground.com/gender_therapists.htm (http://www.lauras-playground.com/gender_therapists.htm)
This is a really old list and is impossible to update. I know as I have tried. Nobody is guaranteed on this list.
If there are no therapists in your area, you might consider skype or online therapy.
Also susan's has a list (think it suffers from the same problems):
https://www.susans.org/Healthcare/Therapists_and_Counselors/ (https://www.susans.org/Healthcare/Therapists_and_Counselors/)
Unfortunately it is typical to be told these things, not right but more common than it should be.
Anyway you are the client and if you dont' like your therapist you can go someplace else. I would warn you that I would just GO someplace else and not discuss it with her. I don't think she is the type to be open-minded about it. She will warn you that you are running away from your issues.
Just my 2ยข,
--Jay
Quote from: Alexthecat on June 21, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
She wants me to connect with my inner little girl to answer these also...
And if you don't have one...?
Look, it all sounds like BS to me, and I absolutely DO NOT TRUST a therapist who tells ME what I am and who I am. That's for me to decide.
I think reflecting on one's childhood can be beneficial at times. We are able to reflect on how we became who we are in some ways. Sometimes that can help us find ways to solve our problems or at least find the root of them. Having said that, it seems your therapist is convinced that the root of your transgender feelings is something else in your past. That should send up a big red flag because she doesn't seem to buy into gender dysphoria being a stand alone thing. I don't know this therapist personally, but I would go to someone else based on what I read in your post. However, that is just me.
Thanks for that susans link. It has two offices I hadn't heard about.
The worse is she is made me doubt myself. I've been sure for the last year and a half. Then I feel the pain in my breast and remember that I want it to stop and that I am still unhappy with them. I know making them bigger would be worse and if I do anything to them I only want to go through it once and just get them removed.
I did schedule a second appointment with her and am debating if I should cancel it. I probably should, during the first appointment I almost stood up and stormed out of there. I forgot what she was saying at the time but I didn't like it.
Yeah I'd definitely look for another. That sounds like they're trying to force their religion on their patients.
When choosing a therapist, you can't predict whether you will have a good "fit" or rapport. But I have been told that "fit" is essential for good work to happen, and I believe it because I never had it with any of my old therapists, never particularly trusted them, and never really made much progress. A couple of times, I have definitely NOT trusted someone--gotten a bad vibe--and I never went back. So I do have quite a bit of faith in the visceral reaction.
However, we also need to remember that sometimes a therapist is revealing an uncomfortable truth or asking hard questions. So discomfort in a session is not automatically bad! But all of this seems very different from what you are reporting. I wouldn't be able to trust someone who wanted to cure me of my transsexualism through talk therapy. But I'm 100% positive that I'm TS, and I'm well into transition. If you aren't sure, it's good to explore it in therapy--but maybe not with this woman.
Nobody else mentioned this but: You might be binding too tight. You should not have actual pain in your breasts. I have sensitivity in the nipples but that isn't actually pain (I don't think they like to be slid against).
I agree re: discomfort isn't always to be avoided. But I am very uncomfortable with her seeming attempt to get you to forget about being trans. If she wanted to connect you to your childhood-- I am not all that big on that, but there are fans of this, she would ask you to think about your "inner boy".
I'm not sure re: forcing religion, sounds like a weak joke about Adam and Eve.
My therapist from day one respected who I was. He called me the names I wanted to be called and used the pronouns I wanted used (though come to think of it the pronoun was "you"). If your therapist can't do that, imo, he/she isn't worth the time of day.
I don't think you need to be sure 100% that you are trans. I was not when I started. If you are respected for who you are you'll be comfortable and safe exploring it. If not, you aren't either comfortable nor safe.
I used to run around naked (on top) as a child too. Not sure it means you're trans . Don't know that it is significant.
List of online therapists: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,121007.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,121007.0.html)
Wish my therapist would do this. He's thinking about it.
--Jay
I cancelled and this is what she sent me.
QuoteIt's interesting, I told you since you only wanted a letter and not therapy, that I probably wasn't the right therapist for you. You said I was the most forthright. Since I was absolutely right and I knew more than you realized, you have shown by your cancellation that if you have difficulty with a session, how are you going to handle something way more traumatic like surgery? If you proved you were ready for therapy you would have kept your session. I hope the best for you, and if you are ready to face your emotional pain, you may contact me again. I sincerely care. It takes a lot of strength to enter therapy. Take care, Barb
Ps your tears throughout the session revealed we were on the right track.
Alex, please don't take this the wrong way but it sounded a lot like your therapist was trying to cover all bases in that you are completely sure that you want to transition. Psychology in itself is more like an ongoing research instead of black and white do this and you'll feel better situation. What is in someone's mind and the reason they feel this or that can be and is totally different than what is in another's mind. This maybe just one way for your therapist to allow you to make for sure that you want to transition for the right reasons.
Personally I think most people want to transition because their minds are out of synche with their birth genders. But there is always the posibilties that it maybe something else. Even if not, in thereapy while going for trans related problems, we do have an opportunity to confront problems from our past and in some cases actually let negative views and emotions of the past incidents go.
The best advice that I can give in your situation would be to make another appointment. Try to work through past problems and remember, its not your therepist you are opening up to but more to yourself. Therapists can seem challenging sometimes, poking, prodding and so on but that is just the way it is done. You will probably get a letter as soon as your therapist is sure that you are sure you want to transition for the right reasons. Just think of it as tidying up all the loose ends of your old life before starting a new one.
I personally think it's for the best mainly because of her references to Christianity while you indirectly stated that you're atheist. But you also didn't mention the whole context. I don't think she's necessarily a bad therapist based on her response and I'd question whether an explicit request to not reference the bible would work to get her to stop.
At any rate, her response also indicates that you're just jumping through the hoops and really don't want any help with any issues you may have. Since she said she couldn't help you with that right up front, your immediate response should have been that you didn't want to continue the sessions. I do find it rather comforting that she indicated you did not burn a bridge, but at the same time, I feel like she may be trying to guilt trip you back into a session, so I have mixed feelings right now.
And this type of analysis stuff is precisely the reason that I haven't transitioned yet! I need to learn to just read at face value.
I didn't like how she was saying I wasn't ready because I had cancelled. I didn't tell her why I did, for all she knew it could of been family issues or money troubles. She jumped to that conclusion. Any ways I have contacted a new place. It has about a dozen therapists all in one place and several are gender therapists. Once they call me back and say how much it will cost I'll be making an appointment. Any previous therapists I've been to haven't been gender specific so I'm looking forward to this new opportunity.
My personal impression ... I would not go back...I had one therapy appointment with a person who said I couldn't call myself transgender that she would make that determination. I did not go back.
My therapist that I went to started by saying that if I want to be referred to as transgender and male than she will respect that b/c she cannot see/feel thus only I can determine that. It was her job to make sure that I was mentally healthy and if I had problems she would help me through them. Not once did she tell me anything -- she only questioned and explored ... she would say "could you feel that way b/c .... and it would make me think about things. I was sexually abused as a child and questioned that about my gender identity -- she only help me see things in my life that pointed to being transgender before that experience. Like I said, she never said b/c of this you could not be transgender -- she only looked at the situation and help me validate my feelings and help me work through my doubts.
Her note to you is kind of expected and rather ridiculous. Sounds like she is trying to justify the loss of a client by stating how excellent she is. "You cancelled because 'you aren't ready'". Pure BS. She's into her own ego. BTW, People can cry for many reasons. And pre-T, I tended to cry if things were unjust, unfair, wrong in some way or frustration (now I just get angry). I would have been very frustrated and angry. So reading it as "on the right track" is might be her own ego at work more than the fact. Another thing, to most transguys, surgery is NOT traumatic. Might be hard on the body, but hardly traumatic. I have never seen any videos or read anything anywhere indicating guys felt surgery was traumatic.
Being abused and so on is so common, there is no correlation, afaik, to being trans. A good gender therapist should be able to handle this. It is certainly not an either or situation. I agree a lot with Robert. I have never been told what my identity is by my therapist. I think if you are, run don't walk.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on June 24, 2013, 06:16:47 PM
BTW, People can cry for many reasons. And pre-T, I tended to cry if things were unjust, unfair, wrong in some way or frustration (now I just get angry). I would have been very frustrated and angry. So reading it as "on the right track" is might be her own ego at work more than the fact.
I didn't know that could be the case. It actually makes sense, she was telling me we had to work through the mental abuse first and that probably set me off on quite an upset feeling. I think it is wrong that I essentially need someone to okay a surgery when it is my body, not there's. Plus the therapist doesn't have to live with a body they hate. I understand why it needs done but it doesn't make me any happier about it.
I just hope this new therapist will give me some real hope and not disappointment. I plan for a January surgery and should have enough saved by then. The letter is the biggest problem right now for me. After getting it things should just be a breeze.
Quote from: Alexthecat on June 25, 2013, 08:03:47 AM
I think it is wrong that I essentially need someone to okay a surgery when it is my body, not there's.
This drives me nuts too. Hey let's call it cosmetic so us insurance companies don't have to cover it. Oh well yeah it is a cosmetic surgery, but you still need approval for it like it wasn't. Grrr.
Oh yeah. As soon as my first therapist learned that I grew up without father, we basically moved away from my GD and spent a lot of time dealing with my childhood issues, my relationship with my mother, inner sense of guilt etc. He made to fulfil a lot of tests and then elaborated why I chose this and that expression to describe my childhood, mother etc. I asked at some point of time, if he is going to refer me to endo, give me a prescription, and was told that I can do that myself anytime I wish. Meanwhile, we have so many issues to discuss... and in time we will get to my sexuality as well... Then, at the end of one of our sessions, he noted - "See, how You are not talking about estrogen and wanting to do the HRT anymore? :)". So I told him, that basically he did not ask me about that, that each session he started with a statement - lets talk about this and that, and that I made the arrangements and be starting HRT in a week... He said "Oh, well". That was our last session :P
Quote from: Sammy on June 25, 2013, 08:20:32 AM
Oh yeah. As soon as my first therapist learned that I grew up without father, we basically moved away from my GD and spent a lot of time dealing with my childhood issues, my relationship with my mother, inner sense of guilt etc. He made to fulfil a lot of tests and then elaborated why I chose this and that expression to describe my childhood, mother etc. I asked at some point of time, if he is going to refer me to endo, give me a prescription, and was told that I can do that myself anytime I wish. Meanwhile, we have so many issues to discuss... and in time we will get to my sexuality as well... Then, at the end of one of our sessions, he noted - "See, how You are not talking about estrogen and wanting to do the HRT anymore? :)". So I told him, that basically he did not ask me about that, that each session he started with a statement - lets talk about this and that, and that I made the arrangements and be starting HRT in a week... He said "Oh, well". That was our last session :P
That sounds exactly how the beginning of my session with barb was going. I am really glad I cancelled now.
Quote from: Alexthecat on June 25, 2013, 08:03:47 AM
I didn't know that could be the case. It actually makes sense, she was telling me we had to work through the mental abuse first and that probably set me off on quite an upset feeling. I think it is wrong that I essentially need someone to okay a surgery when it is my body, not there's. Plus the therapist doesn't have to live with a body they hate. I understand why it needs done but it doesn't make me any happier about it.
I just hope this new therapist will give me some real hope and not disappointment. I plan for a January surgery and should have enough saved by then. The letter is the biggest problem right now for me. After getting it things should just be a breeze.
Yeah I didn't know at one time too. But it makes sense that what you were feeling was actually anger and perhaps some bit of frustration because she was so not getting it. Someone with an ego would think there was only one way to read that.
Sammy's explanation is so dead on with these types of therapists. Another clue that they don't get it is if they misgender you and/or refuse to use a name you want to use and stick with your birth name. The first thing my therapist did is ask what name I wanted to be called and what my preferred gender pronouns were. He switched as easily as I switched, because I went from an androgynous name to more male name. I have heard of therapists who will ask if you want to go by a different name before you are even out to yourself.
--Jay
On a side note .... I know Dr. Tholen in Mn. does top surgery without a letter ... he sees it as cosmetic and he doesn't require it for his other cosmetic patients.
Quote from: Robert Scott on June 25, 2013, 01:38:42 PM
On a side note .... I know Dr. Tholen in Mn. does top surgery without a letter ... he sees it as cosmetic and he doesn't require it for his other cosmetic patients.
I hadn't heard of him but one in Illinois that doesn't need a letter. I was just hoping for the letter to be able to get it done at the surgeon who is an hour away. If it fails though I might have to look at travelling but that is more expensive.
I hope you'll keep us updated. I know that sometimes people have to try a couple times. Fortunately for me I lucked out. But some people do get it better the second time around. I wish you luck.
--Jay
My first appointment is July 18th. It will be a waiting game now. They must have a lot of clients.
My therapist.
Karen T. Cimini, Ph.D.
Areas of Specialization: relationship and family, sexual function and dysfunction, gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered issues, dependency and addiction, eating disorders, chronic illness and grief, coping with HIV, work and life issues
Undergraduate: University of Cincinnati, Bachelor of Science, Elementary Education, magna cum laude
Graduate: University of Akron, Masters of Science Degree, Counseling; University of Akron, Ph.D., Counseling Psychology
Adjunct Professor: Cleveland State University, John Carroll University
Member: American Psychological Association
Quote from: Alexthecat on June 24, 2013, 06:29:23 AM
I cancelled and this is what she sent me.
Wow. She really has a high opinion of herself, doesn't she? And a low opinion of you. You're well rid of her, in my opinion.
So I had the appointment. She didn't have much experience with people in the middle. She said it would take at least 6 months of appointments no exceptions which didn't work out when I'm planning surgery for January. Though she is concerned it might just be Body dysmorphic disorder, which I looked up and it sounds like everyone has that. She said if that was the case she wouldn't write me a letter as she doesn't believe in changing the body for those reasons. She also says it's foolish for doctors to do it on informed consent basis. I could continue seeing her as it's only $20 a appointment but by January that is $240 which could be put to a plane ticket to just have the surgery in Illinois. My grandma wants me to see her so I can explain to the family why I'm having the surgery but right now I'm unsure. I don't really care about explaining to the family and a simple because it makes me more comfortable should be a good enough reason for them.
Though the highlight of yesterday was getting the car fixed and the man thought I was a 15 year old boy. Then later at the store a women thought I was a young boy also. That is with a hoodie on. Passing makes me feel good.
Really, I cant comment about Your therapist because I have never met her in person and never will, but... She does remind me a bit of my first therapist (who was a guy, btw). At some point of time I realised that he already had some preconceptions about what is happening with me and what is not, besides he was quite classical psych in terms of 19-20th century psychiatric theories - from those questions he asked and tests he gave me, I almost saw Jung and Freud staring at me. He was covering my childhood issues, relationships with my mother - on which he really seemed to be fixed - and with each session we drifted away from dealing with GD. Given that each sessions cost me 70 USD and he insisted seeing me every week despite openly stating that he wont refer me to anyone, I changed my therapist after two months. Seeing that Your therapist already "knows" what is going on with You.... she might just use the sessions to get the info she wants to confirm her opinion, while disregarding any other statements. You should also be keeping an eye on who is leading the sessions - is she directing You or does she let You talk and the adapts to Your narrative.
Quote from: Alexthecat on July 19, 2013, 02:36:44 AM
So I had the appointment. She didn't have much experience with people in the middle. She said it would take at least 6 months of appointments no exceptions which didn't work out when I'm planning surgery for January. Though she is concerned it might just be Body dysmorphic disorder, which I looked up and it sounds like everyone has that. She said if that was the case she wouldn't write me a letter as she doesn't believe in changing the body for those reasons. She also says it's foolish for doctors to do it on informed consent basis. I could continue seeing her as it's only $20 a appointment but by January that is $240 which could be put to a plane ticket to just have the surgery in Illinois. My grandma wants me to see her so I can explain to the family why I'm having the surgery but right now I'm unsure. I don't really care about explaining to the family and a simple because it makes me more comfortable should be a good enough reason for them.
Though the highlight of yesterday was getting the car fixed and the man thought I was a 15 year old boy. Then later at the store a women thought I was a young boy also. That is with a hoodie on. Passing makes me feel good.
Love when I first started passing-- might watch out though being a young guy in a hoodie though... Sad to say.
Well I don't know It doesn't sound too positive. I really wish I could bottle my therapist and send him out to guys who might need him (he might not like this though :) ) Anyway, the sessions sound cheap enough (right now), but it's not everything.
I don't like: 1. 6 months no exceptions. This sounds heavy handed. Of course she'd rather have your money for six months. There are people that might not need any therapy at all. 2. Her comments on informed consent. Not her business. Sounds like she is worried it will cut into business. Because it is a DOCTOR who does it, she'd not a medical doctor. 3. Her immediate jump into BDD. Ok, well MIGHT be something to rule except. It is kind of funny isn't it that the body parts you don't like have to do with your *gender* isn't it? I doubt someoen with BDD has this. BTW, to go rule it out, it's kind of rare actually (more rare than GD).
4. Not much apparent knowledge of non-binary people. She needs to go study up. This is the 21st C. 5. Cheap isn't everything.
6. Your grandmother and your family don't have to see her.
Do you like her? Can you talk with her? Do you feel like it's all about the danged letter? TBH, I don't think I'd see her.
Where are you in Illinois? Maybe people can help you find someone decent.
--Jay
She seems nice and everything and has been doing this for over 25 years. It is all about the letter. I'm in Ohio and the surgeon I wanted to go to requires a letter which is why I saw her. However the one in Illinois does it on informed consent basis. I think he is more expensive and then there is costs for the plane ticket and hotel for a week. It would be 6-7 hours by car ride one way and it just seems better for post op if I did an hour plane ride. I still need to talk to the surgeon and see if he accepts care-credit which will determine if I can handle the extra cost. Plus I'm kind of pissed grandma got rid of our remote control rising recliner, which I planned to sleep in while healing.
Well I don't think there is anything wrong at all with doing this informed consent. I don't feel like therapy helped me "decide" to transition. I worked this out IN therapy. But if you already know this, well you are not goign to be "talked out of being male" by going to therapy. I think her comments on informed consent are irrelevant. I think your feelings re: the surgeon are just fine. It's really YOUR decision. (Might start looking on craig's list for a recliner.)
--Jay
Quote from: Alexthecat on July 19, 2013, 05:47:33 PM
She seems nice and everything and has been doing this for over 25 years. It is all about the letter. I'm in Ohio and the surgeon I wanted to go to requires a letter which is why I saw her. However the one in Illinois does it on informed consent basis. I think he is more expensive and then there is costs for the plane ticket and hotel for a week. It would be 6-7 hours by car ride one way and it just seems better for post op if I did an hour plane ride. I still need to talk to the surgeon and see if he accepts care-credit which will determine if I can handle the extra cost. Plus I'm kind of pissed grandma got rid of our remote control rising recliner, which I planned to sleep in while healing.