I don't post my mug shot on the vanity threads for a lot of personal reasons as I'm sure is the case for many here at Susan's, besides that I know I don't pass or look pretty so why assault everyone with my mug shot and set myself up for hurt feelings. I think "Do I Pass?" should be replaced with "Do I look female?" The reason I'm suggesting that is that there is no way anyone can say someone passes simply by looking at a few photos. Passing is all about body language, tone of voice and inflection and how one carries themselves. You might look great in a photo, but if you walk with your feet shoulder width apart like a fullback on a football team, touch your crotch, or have a basso voice, then no of course not! Then there seems to be a lot of dishonesty in the replies like, "You look just darling dear!" when you really think the person is a dog. Those posting photos almost daily for months on end only serves to tell everyone of either their insecurities or of how truly self absorbed they are and it is pathetic and tiring for everyone.
"You Look Fabulous Darling!" Speaks for itself and rules out about 80% of the membership who are not and never will be fabulous looking. It's ok though, and we should all grow up and get over it. If you don't look fabulous please don't post your photo in that thread, it only serves to undermine the intent of that thread. I know this comes off like a rant, but a lot of nice women are either getting bad advice from others or have their feelings tromped on by being dissed and it doesn't come across as supportive in either case. I'd be interested in having others air their feelings about these threads. ~Shan~
Well, I've never posted in these kinds of threads. Even early in transition. I just don't have a need to get anyone's opinion on my appearance or passability. If I'm passing, I know it. If I'm not, I know it. Though it may be more definitive to ftms, since if you're not passing, everyone just takes you for a butchy woman and nobody feels the need to humor you with a 'sir'. Whereas with mtfs, even if you're not passing, you may still get 'ma'ams' if you're obviously dressed as a woman.
This is the guidance from the first page of the "Do I Pass?" topic:
Could I Pass One Day? - for those who are questioning, and wondering if they might have the ability to physically pass as "female."
You look Fabulous, Darling - for those who are finished, or nearly so, with their transitions. A celebration of change. "It was meant to be a place to celebrate being fabulous and enjoying life...not to be another thread for others to pick faults and put you down" - Rock_Chick
Before and After - a place to show where you were when you started and how far you have come in the process.
Do I Pass? - THIS TOPIC, for those who are in the process of transitioning. A place to seek advice, reassurance, and constructive criticism.
Well... that took guts I suppose! lol!!
If I had my druthers, we wouldn't have stickied passing threads. They are contentious, and if interest in the threads wanes, they would slide off the front pages. Also, it's important to remember that people are offering their opinions in these threads, if you choose to take an opinion as fact, it's on you.
Un-Sticky them.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on June 24, 2013, 12:20:27 PM
Un-Sticky them.
The Pass threads are Jamie's baby, I'm not touching them!
I guess I look at those threads differently. Two of them give people a place where they can post pictures to get criticism and feedback, which can be very helpful I know because I lack the capacity to evaluate myself. It's always in flux how I feel about myself, and when I wasn't sure, and wasn't public, I am sure that would have been a great resource for me. I think/hope everybody understands that the judgement is just of the picture(s), and passing in a picture is very different from passing in public. But the feedback is not useless because of that. First, it's a safe place to get other people's thoughts about how you look even if it is surfacey, also you if you know you pass in a picture, it tells you that you are doing some things right. The unrealistically positive feedback also has its place because it can make somebody feel a little better when they feel so bad about themselves. More good than harm imo.
I see the other two "vanity" threads to be more inspirational, which also has its place imo. When I was first starting out, seeing people (also hearing their stories) that had made a successful transition was one of the things that helped me hold on and have just that little sliver of hope which honestly saved me. Realizing that it was possible to come out on the other side and have a normal life was so powerful for me. And you know what was, and still is, the most important thing for me to see? It's the smiles and joy that is present in people's eyes. Nobody has to be drop-dead gorgeous to show that, and I don't think anybody should feel excluded from or hesitant about posting anywhere. It's the inner beauty that is so wonderful and encouraging to see.
We can talk about the vanity threads and whether people that post there are just narcissists or insecure basketcases, and maybe... but I think that is just pessimistic.
Yes. We all know very well that vanity always becomes vain, eventually.
barbie~~
Quote from: Shantel on June 24, 2013, 11:25:04 AM
I don't post my mug shot on the vanity threads for a lot of personal reasons as I'm sure is the case for many here at Susan's, besides that I know I don't pass or look pretty so why assault everyone with my mug shot and set myself up for hurt feelings. I think "Do I Pass?" should be replaced with "Do I look female?" The reason I'm suggesting that is that there is no way anyone can say someone passes simply by looking at a few photos. Passing is all about body language, tone of voice and inflection and how one carries themselves. You might look great in a photo, but if you walk with your feet shoulder width apart like a fullback on a football team, touch your crotch, or have a basso voice, then no of course not! Then there seems to be a lot of dishonesty in the replies like, "You look just darling dear!" when you really think the person is a dog. Those posting photos almost daily for months on end only serves to tell everyone of either their insecurities or of how truly self absorbed they are and it is pathetic and tiring for everyone.
"You Look Fabulous Darling!" Speaks for itself and rules out about 80% of the membership who are not and never will be fabulous looking. It's ok though, and we should all grow up and get over it. If you don't look fabulous please don't post your photo in that thread, it only serves to undermine the intent of that thread. I know this comes off like a rant, but a lot of nice women are either getting bad advice from others or have their feelings tromped on by being dissed and it doesn't come across as supportive in either case. I'd be interested in having others air their feelings about these threads. ~Shan~
Good point Shan...we should change to do I look female...I hate the word "pass' as it has fraud connotations....yeah I continue to stir the pot lol
Now, having said all of that ^^^...I found most of the pictures showing a good looking female...there are many cuties in this forum, I also found most of the dudes dashing...LOL
I guess the old adage "beauty is on the eye of the beholder" works for me..LOL
One more thing my dear Shan..."Vanity" is my middle name...you know: "Friends will forsake you but Vanity will never let you down:..... >:-)
Quote from: Jen on June 24, 2013, 12:34:27 PM
We can talk about the vanity threads and whether people that post there are just narcissists or insecure basketcases, and maybe... but I think that is just pessimistic.
You have good points and I know I intimated that in your statement on the bottom, but I think that it's a shame that so many people enjoy looking at the women on those threads and yet refuse to comment at all leaving some very fragile types with feelings of even more worthlessness than before. I am equally guilty, but we should all reconsider how such an innocuous oversight by us may seem like a smash in the face of someone who had the guts to put up their photo in the first place. I realize that there was a super full moon yesterday but I got pm's by half a dozen women who were lamenting about how dissed they felt because of it. Something is wrong when that happens on a support forum. This isn't about me, it's about everyone here.
Quote from: Shantel on June 24, 2013, 01:07:55 PM
I got pm's by half a dozen women who were lamenting about how dissed they felt because of it.
Welcome to the wild world of estrogen. It's full of emotions and insecurities!!!
Quote from: Shantel on June 24, 2013, 01:07:55 PM
You have good points and I know I intimated that in your statement on the bottom, but I think that it's a shame that so many people enjoy looking at the women on those threads and yet refuse to comment at all leaving some very fragile types with feelings of even more worthlessness than before. I am equally guilty, but we should all reconsider how such an innocuous oversight by us may seem like a smash in the face of someone who had the guts to put up their photo in the first place. I realize that there was a super full moon yesterday but I got pm's by half a dozen women who were lamenting about how dissed they felt because of it. Something is wrong when that happens on a support forum. This isn't about me, it's about everyone here.
I see what you mean. I know I usually just comment on people's pics whom I have been talking back and forth with in other threads and there is that small connection, but I'm sure people I don't mention could take that to mean that I am ignoring them for an unstated reason, and imaginations run wild. I guess I should recognize and be aware of that. I think everybody that has posted in those threads is so amazing, btw.
It's weird that usually the people that have said something in the thread about being overlooked are so beautiful. I guess that is just their misplaced insecurity, but everybody on earth has their insecurities, and trans people have more than most I bet. So that is just part of being human. I know I have to deal with mine daily. If I ever judge somebody for being insecure, go ahead and throw me in hypocrite prison.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 24, 2013, 01:19:21 PM
Welcome to the wild world of estrogen. It's full of emotions and insecurities!!!
Qft!
I know i personally haven't been on them here and probably won't. Sadly i have herd of someone who i thought was beautiful and ready for full time get bashed so bad by other girls on that forum that she was later hospitalized for attempting to hurt herself. Thankfully that forum is no longer active or even on the internet along with the dating/social media site it was part of.
Yes I know that's a little extreme and wouldn't have gone as far here because of our mods, but i still wouldn't take the chance of having someone in a catty mood bash a pic of me. Plus our threads being sourced by search engines doesn't help me to feel comfortable with it either.
If all replies were 100% truthful to 'Vanity Threads' I mite not have such an aversion to them... To be honest the first time I clicked into the TS MtoF section here and saw them at the top I thought I had been linked to the wronge area(past experience on some other sites). Those that love them love them and those that do not won't. For me too little is known about the individuals state of mind or situation a lot of the time and Overly critical responses could drive someone to destruction just as overly positive responses can also cause someone to be over confident in their appearance and put themselves in harms way.. Sorry but I've seen both happen.
There is a stark difference between honest supportive, critiquing feedback and pandoring or visceral comments. :)
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 24, 2013, 12:24:10 PM
The Pass threads are Jamie's baby, I'm not touching them!
Well, some of the newest versions are mine. Earlier versions were made by Forum Admin, Osiris, Helena, and others. Some are on their second, third, or fourth versions. They are among the most popular topics we have on the Forums and have been "stickied" as long as I can remember (with the exception of Mahsa's topic). Though they can be contentious, I know that I drew great strength at seeing what could be accomplished. Many other members have said that these topics, especially "Before and After" were inspirational.
Of course, "support" means honesty, and members who post here need to know that all the suggestions and commentary may not be what they want to hear. But sometimes, the comments can be life-changing. And, I suspect, they bring new members to the site that might otherwise drift aimlessly.
I trust our membership to post and comment responsibly.
Quote from: kariann330 on June 24, 2013, 01:38:16 PM
I know i personally haven't been on them here and probably won't. Sadly i have herd of someone who i thought was beautiful and ready for full time get bashed so bad by other girls on that forum that she was later hospitalized for attempting to hurt herself. Thankfully that forum is no longer active or even on the internet along with the dating/social media site it was part of.
Yes I know that's a little extreme and wouldn't have gone as far here because of our mods, but i still wouldn't take the chance of having someone in a catty mood bash a pic of me. Plus our threads being sourced by search engines doesn't help me to feel comfortable with it either.
Kariann, we do have a picture-sharing topic in the "Just for Us" section that is not crawled. It is a safe locale for the
shy types, like yourself ;)
Quote from: Miss Bungle on June 24, 2013, 01:24:54 PM
I don't think I have ever posted my pic in those threads. (although I have used a pic of myself as an avatar from time to time.) If someone honestly looks good then I say so. If they don't then I say nothing at all. But on the other hand, there are some people that may have looked great and I never mentioned it simply because I was working on something else while online and never got around to commenting.
Myself? I'm a frumpy dork and I don't care about how I am seen online. If someone says I look good. Fine. If they say nothing. Fine. I'm more interested in showing off my Dotty and Portia plushes than myself, really. :D Because they ARE friggin' cute!
Foo! You are as cute as Portia, and you know it!
Quote from: Lorri Kat on June 24, 2013, 03:26:03 PM
<snip>overly positive responses can also cause someone to be over confident in their appearance and put themselves in harms way..
I guess I don't understand how this happens? Can you give an example?
Quote from: Jamie D on June 24, 2013, 03:33:56 PM
Well, some of the newest versions are mine. Earlier versions were made by Forum Admin, Osiris, Helena, and others. Some are on their second, third, or fourth versions. They are among the most popular topics we have on the Forums and have been "stickied" as long as I can remember (with the exception of Mahsa's topic). Though they can be contentious, I know that I drew great strength at seeing what could be accomplished. Many other members have said that these topics, especially "Before and After" were inspirational.
Of course, "support" means honesty, and members who post here need to know that all the suggestions and commentary may not be what they want to hear. But sometimes, the comments can be life-changing. And, I suspect, they bring new members to the site that might otherwise drift aimlessly.
I trust our membership to post and comment responsibly.
My point is that important things like Staff guidelines, HRT Policy, and the suicide hotlines are worthy candidates for being sticky topics.
"Look at me, everybody" , not so much
Quote from: Jen on June 24, 2013, 03:41:41 PM
I guess I don't understand how this happens? Can you give an example?
It happens when people are told they are "totally passable, I would never guess you were not female..ect" when they are not; then they take those comments, which were less then truthful or correct, to heart. Subsequently they go out on their own and end up in places, restaurants,bars,clubs or stores thinking they totally pass and are blending in as cis females, this can cause them to be a target. Even ''safe'' places are not always safe at certain times. Society, as I'm more then sure your aware, is not fully accepting. These places can be unsafe for any woman out on her own at times, the parking lots especially but for someone that does not blend in as well as they have been led to believe it makes them that much more of a target. There is a laps, for them, of being even more diligent in their awareness of the surroundings, "ohh everyone just thinks I'm a women out shopping,eating..". The 'neanderthal/ homo trigger' is quickly brought out in some guys and they are dumb enough to act on that impulse right then and there irrespective of whether they were even looking to go after cis females or anyone. :)
I have a love/hate relationship with threads like that. Sometimes, after a particularly good or even a pretty bad day, its nice to see what comments one's appearance gets. And I am always nice enough to warn anyone that gets queasy easily before the pic so they can be prepared.
And even during all the years I spent on forums where I was the only regular trans, there was plenty of pic whoring by women and even men to bolster their confidence or get opinions. So its not just us that are annoying like that...
Quote from: Renee on June 24, 2013, 05:21:07 PM
I have a love/hate relationship with threads like that. Sometimes, after a particularly good or even a pretty bad day, its nice to see what comments one's appearance gets. And I am always nice enough to warn anyone that gets queasy easily before the pic so they can be prepared.
And even during all the years I spent on forums where I was the only regular trans, there was plenty of pic whoring by women and even men to bolster their confidence or get opinions. So its not just us that are annoying like that...
You always make me laugh...
I mean you personally, not your picture!! :angel:
Quote from: Lorri Kat on June 24, 2013, 05:14:00 PM
It happens when people are told they are "totally passable, I would never guess you were not female..ect" when they are not; then they take those comments, which were less then truthful or correct, to heart. Subsequently they go out on their own and end up in places, restaurants,bars,clubs or stores thinking they totally pass and are blending in as cis females, this can cause them to be a target. Even ''safe'' places are not always safe at certain times. Society, as I'm more then sure your aware, is not fully accepting. These places can be unsafe for any woman out on her own at times, the parking lots especially but for someone that does not blend in as well as they have been led to believe it makes them that much more of a target. There is a laps, for them, of being even more diligent in their awareness of the surroundings, "ohh everyone just thinks I'm a women out shopping,eating..". The 'neanderthal/ homo trigger' is quickly brought out in some guys and they are dumb enough to act on that impulse right then and there irrespective of whether they were even looking to go after cis females or anyone. :)
By that logic, it's dangerous telling anyone they pass, they might go out looking fabulous but sounding like a drill sergeant. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Jen on June 24, 2013, 03:41:41 PM
I guess I don't understand how this happens? Can you give an example?
So, after YOU told them that they are the cutie thing since Barbie, well they sprint to the nearest bar where they get beaten up by some guys...
Then they will sue YOU for telling them that hey will pass..... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh
Quote from: Jamie D on June 24, 2013, 05:24:09 PM
You always make me laugh...
I mean you personally, not your picture!! :angel:
It's ok, I know I'm funny looking. :D
I couldn't imagine a support forum that didn't have a place for you to show pictures to others.
I've had a few ultra-bad depressive bouts where I really needed some self-confidence (last week being one of them,) and likewise had some days where I was just so happy that I had to share this joy with everyone. This is a huge life journey, and one worth celebrating and sharing with others to both help you through the bad times and to celebrate the good. That's what I see those topics as being about.
And personally, I think the "Before and After" thread is one of the most important on this entire site, because it was one of the primary things that gave me hope, and convinced me that I really could transition, after a whole lifetime of thinking that it was impossible. And I imagine that it does the same for MANY potential transitioners.
It's been an interesting exchange of thoughts and a friendly rather than hysterical conversation, thanks to everyone for their input! While we were talking Jamie D changed the name of "Do I Pass" to "Do I look female!" thank you Jamie D!
I think your take on these types of threads is largely dependent on the reaction you would want if you had put your own pictures up there. For me personally, I'd want someone to tell it like is it to me. If I look like a woman that let a 5 yo put on her makeup, I want to know about it. If I look androgynous or totally male, I also want to know about it. So on that note, I really don't like the overly positive responses, but I can see where other people would.
I may not have the confidence to even put up a profile picture, much less post on one of those threads right now, but it doesn't mean I won't feel the need in the future. Obviously there's a demand for them with them being up to 90+ pages on the thread.
Hmm, I sort of disagree and agree with you on this Shantel (but isn't that always the case,lol. You know you love me,lol). On the first point, changing the the title of "Do I pass" to "Do I look female" is fine by me. I think it is more of a semantics game more than anything, but I do see your point that passing is so much more than a photo. But then, if someone passes in the photo, I don't think that they will take it for more than that. If someone looks female but talks like Barry White, I don't think they are unaware of the fact that their voice prevents them from passing. Still, there may be of merit to change the title of that one.
Where I really disagree with is your stand on the "Fabulous" thread. I don't think people should avoid posting in there purely because they might not be the conventional image of beauty. What does it mean to look Fabulous? Who defines it? Tastes differ and we should be careful about creating stereotypical beauty standards for those who want to share their images. For example, Rosie O'Donell is far the most attractive women (imo), but she passes and is able to wear clothes that might make her look "fabulous". Should someone that looks like her be precluded from the thread? I don't think so (other than I can't stand Rosie,lol).
As for the whole cheerleading controversy, I think it depends on how you look at it. Just because some people have high standards, doesn't mean another person isn't fabulous looking or passing. Some may look at those photos and see different things. It's like anything else. Have you ever seen a celebrity that everyone goes crazy for, but you yourself can't see the appeal? People differ in what looks fabulous and whether someone passes. It's true that some may be dishonest which I think is a shame, but that comes with the territory. I think more people are speaking their mind than not. We tend to be a fairly harsh community because we look at someone of our flaws and constantly worry about passing. Sometimes we focus to much on the little things to realize that the overall package does indeed allow one to pass. I think the problem here is we have so many different perspectives which may make other members question the validity, accuracy or honesty of the feedback. When in reality, the feedback is truthful from the posters perspective.
I think it's great that these threads exist. Before I joined I lurked on those threads. It made me feel better about myself and the possibilities that transitioning could open. Many of us are afraid that we will never pass ( I still fear this). Those threads provide inspiration for girls who are still starting out that are in need of everything. It's not just vanity at the end of the day. It provides people confidence to go about transitioning and obtain their goals. So I say the sticky stays. Having said that, I avoid these threads because of personal insecurities and jealousy at times. What can I say, it's common to compare ourselves to one another. To a girl with not even two weeks of hrt, this can be detrimental.
I'd just like to add that my favorite thread on the whole forum is the before and after one, which I guess isn't technically a vanity thread, but it's still a place where people can post and wait for the kudos. I used to think I was way too masculine to ever pass. Next to some of the before pictures on that thread, I'm practically a woman before everything. That's not meant to be mean towards those I'm referring too. It's a major compliment because it means you pass amazingly well in your after pictures and provided a huge amount of hope to me.
Quote from: learningtolive on June 24, 2013, 06:14:41 PM
Hmm, I sort of disagree and agree with you on this Shantel (but isn't that always the case,lol. You know you love me,lol).
Of course I love you sweetheart! ;)
I think the do I pass thing has become a moot point and I will admit to having seen worse then Rosie on the "Do I look fabulous" thread. I'm just suggesting that if you know that no-one would invite you to a dog fight to just use some common sense and don't try to lower the bar to the extent that it becomes farcical for others.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 24, 2013, 05:32:27 PM
By that logic, it's dangerous telling anyone they pass, they might go out looking fabulous but sounding like a drill sergeant. Hugs, Devlyn
LOL OMG! .. you made me shoot Dr.Pepper out my nose with that one.. WoW that hurt ..still kinda does....!!! :)
...actually I know that person(someone like that) in RL.
Passing is a package deal, the new title for that thread seems more in-line with what it was meant for. :)
We all find comfort and assurance in different ways. I'm sure that many are helped by those threads and hope that respondents there realize anything said may be taken to heart by some.
Quote from: Lorri Kat on June 24, 2013, 06:37:42 PM
LOL OMG! .. you made me shoot Dr.Pepper out my nose with that one.. WoW that hurt ..still kinda does....!!! :)
...actually I know that person(someone like that) in RL.
Passing is a package deal, the new title for that thread seems more in-line with what it was meant for. :)
We all find comfort and assurance in different ways. I'm sure that many are helped by those threads and hope that respondents there realize anything said may be taken to heart by some.
Nostril cleaning, just another service I offer!
Quote from: Lorri Kat on June 24, 2013, 05:14:00 PM
It happens when people are told they are "totally passable, I would never guess you were not female..ect" when they are not; then they take those comments, which were less then truthful or correct, to heart. Subsequently they go out on their own and end up in places, restaurants,bars,clubs or stores thinking they totally pass and are blending in as cis females, this can cause them to be a target. Even ''safe'' places are not always safe at certain times. Society, as I'm more then sure your aware, is not fully accepting. These places can be unsafe for any woman out on her own at times, the parking lots especially but for someone that does not blend in as well as they have been led to believe it makes them that much more of a target. There is a laps, for them, of being even more diligent in their awareness of the surroundings, "ohh everyone just thinks I'm a women out shopping,eating..". The 'neanderthal/ homo trigger' is quickly brought out in some guys and they are dumb enough to act on that impulse right then and there irrespective of whether they were even looking to go after cis females or anyone. :)
Idk.. I guess I just feel like it would take an outrageously oblivious person to take a compliment in a "do I pass" thread to mean that they should throw on their shortest miniskirt and rush out to go rub up on the nearest beer-soaked frat boy. My feeling is such a person probably would end up doing that anyway, compliment or not.
I believe the overwhelming majority of people have common sense and realize the insignificance somebody saying they look good in their very best picture from their best angle has with respect to their passing out in the real world. The real world has a way of telling you how much you pass in the real world anyway, unless, again, you are oblivious. However, sometimes, well for most people I think, it takes a little bit of a confidence boost to get their buns out the door that first time so that they can start getting that real-world feedback :). Fear is such the enemy, imo.
That said I think people should be real with their comments, but also BE KIND!
I have been on this forum long enough to notice that this comes up for discussion about ever 6 months or so. It is kind of comical when I see the discussion brewing. But since I just posted some pictures in the threads in question I thought I would weigh in on the discussion.
When I posted in the "Do I pass thread" I was looking for some honest critiques. Some pictures were better then others whether it was lighting or makeup or attire. But I got to hear what was working for me through pictures and what wasnt working for me. At the time, I had NO ONE else to go to for an opinion. BUT, I also knew full well how bad my voice was and my posture and the dangers of being out and about. No one is going to get a compliment on a picture then automatically think their voice and mannerisms pass. Thats just silly to think that. Anyone that goes out dressed is FULLY aware of how well they pass or don't pass. In the beginning I could tell just with a glance. I also think everyone that posts on that thread is aware that it is just a photo nothing more. It takes alot more to pass that a pretty picture and everyone knows that. EVERYONE.
Why I post in the "before and after" is basically a progress picture. Just to see where I came from. I think people like myself like to see the change whether drastically or not. Like myself I think some people are truely inspired by the pictures and stories on that thread.
When I post in the "You look fabulous thread", it is for the reason that is in the title. I feel like I look fabulous. Or it would be a time when I felt fabulous. It is not a picture that I post to say "Look how pretty I am!!!" It is just a snap shot when I feel like a million bucks. It is a picture that I show to my girlfriends like a, "this is what I wore to that Thai place" or something. I think sometimes people need to see pictures where someones confidence is shinning bright. Sometimes too it is nice to hear compliments. I don't think that I'm fishing for compliments so much as maybe trying to inspire a little. Whether the inspiration is for myself or someone else.
As someone that likes to view those topics, I like to see people going through their transition. When they post a new picture i try to picture in my mind what they looked like in the last picture. I dunno. There is good and bad in everything we do or say. I think the thing to remember is to just try and be respectful and responsible when posting/viewing/commenting. People are putting themselves out there to be judged. If nothing else the courage it takes to do that is something that should not be taken lightly.
Yayy! I did some rambling maybe?
<3 Liv
I have always somewhat disliked the "you look fabulous " thread. Not because I don't feel people on their don't look good...many on their are very pretty and many look so natural...and its not because I am jealous (well maybe a little) but the main reason is why it (the original one) was started in the first place.
I for one.... have never nor never will post in the fabulous thread but I may have been put into the original one inadvertently. I feel the original one was started because of some people thinking that other people posting in the do I pass didn't belong their....It even said this in the original post.
I feel part of the reason the original thread started by Helena about 2 years ago was because of me......Not that I thought I was attractive or even natural looking during that time....but I was one of the last people to post in the do I pass before the fabulous thread started.....and the feeling I got was that I was being conceited by posting in the do I pass thread.....I even had some say things such as "oh come on you know you pass" This was not my intention at all. In fact I did feel that I was somewhat passable but just barely...and definitely not fabulous!!
Some people a bit more secure with themselves may take the compliments and roll with them...I took it as people thinking I was intentionally being conceited.
It seems people always take me wrong...even when if my words are written. I'm sure this post will be taken the wrong way. This is not my intention....my intention is that some people do not see themselves as attractive, skinny, or feminine no matter what is said.
I don't post in their now because I know I don't look fabulous....and even if 100 people told me I did it wouldn't help my self esteem anyways.....I know I blend into society just fine and most days that's good enough!!
Well Shelly, if you prefer, you can always post over in the Androgyne forum, in the "You Look.... Alright" topic. ;)
We have fun over there, and are not entirely serious, or dour, or even critical.
And it is true though. Some of us can not see the changes - and can only see our old selves.
I have never in my life thought to myself omg, wow you look fabulous, honey! Never. I also doubt most people that use that thread sit there thinking that. I have used that thread more like a "this is me" thread and I'll post pics there occasionally so that new people that don't know me can put a face to my name, cause I'm not going to use a real pic for my avatar. I don't know of a better place to put them.
Maybe if we're renaming things, the fabulous one should be considered, cause I mean its current title implies that when I put a pic there I'm going, "hey everybody don't I just look AMAZING!?!?!?" Which... um, no. It's embarrassing that anybody would ever think I was saying that..
Quote from: Jen on June 24, 2013, 09:22:57 PM
I have never in my life thought to myself omg, wow you look fabulous, honey! Never. I also doubt most people that use that thread sit there thinking that. I have used that thread more like a "this is me" thread and I'll post pics there occasionally so that new people that don't know me can put a face to my name, cause I'm not going to use a real pic for my avatar. I don't know of a better place to put them.
Maybe if we're renaming things, the fabulous one should be considered, cause I mean its current title implies that when I put a pic there I'm going, "hey everybody don't I just look AMAZING!?!?!?" Which... um, no. It's embarrassing that anybody would ever think I was saying that..
I agree about the fabulous thing. Even when I was using it in my post, it is not a word that is really in my vocabulary. I even felt silly using it to adress myself in my post. But I was just using it because that is what the thread is called. But I agree I think the word is a bit over the top. But no matter what we call the threads, they are still doing their intended function I think. For the most part anyways. But with this many women on the topic of appearance, someones feelings are bound to get stepped on. *shrugs*
In hind sight i do sound a bit pretentous when im talking about the fab thread. lol Oh well.
<3 Liv
Oh I was kinda/sorta responding to Just Shelly, I prob should have made that clear. Also, to be clear about another thing, I really want people to feel fabulous about themselves, I would never be judgmental about that. Actually I think it's great! It's just not something I am able to think about myself, I wish I could.
I actually kinda agreed with a lot of the things you said, Olivia.
Anyway, I think I should just shut up now lol. I agree with everything :)
I understand your rationale for what you said in your 9:07 PM post Olivia and it is, since you said it, true to you.
The conceptual level of what constitutes silly, fully aware, common sense even is subjective though to each individual alone. Everyone does not think, act or perceive things the same. :)
Quote from: Lorri Kat on June 24, 2013, 10:20:56 PM
I understand your rationale for what you said in your 9:07 PM post Olivia and it is, since you said it, true to you.
The conceptual level of what constitutes silly, fully aware, common sense even is subjective though to each individual alone. Everyone does not think, act or perceive things the same. :)
You are correct, I know I was speaking in absolutes. Which given the reason of this forum, that is a big no no. But I think to a degree everyone is more self aware than they would like to think, or than we give them credit for. But, that being said. This is a support forum, so we must cater to the lowest common denominator and treat people as if they don't have the best common sense or situational awareness.
Quote from: Jen on June 24, 2013, 10:18:13 PM
Oh I was kinda/sorta responding to Just Shelly, I prob should have made that clear. Also, to be clear about another thing, I really want people to feel fabulous about themselves, I would never be judgmental about that. Actually I think it's great! It's just not something I am able to think about myself, I wish I could.
I actually kinda agreed with a lot of the things you said, Olivia.
Anyway, I think I should just shut up now lol. I agree with everything :)
You don't need to shut up silly! Your post just got me thinking about my post. So I thought I too would clarify a bit. My post just kind of fell from my fingertips. I didn't re-read what I had wrote to make sure that my thoughts were clear.
<3 Liv
Quote from: Shantel on June 24, 2013, 01:07:55 PM
You have good points and I know I intimated that in your statement on the bottom, but I think that it's a shame that so many people enjoy looking at the women on those threads and yet refuse to comment at all leaving some very fragile types with feelings of even more worthlessness than before. I am equally guilty, but we should all reconsider how such an innocuous oversight by us may seem like a smash in the face of someone who had the guts to put up their photo in the first place. I realize that there was a super full moon yesterday but I got pm's by half a dozen women who were lamenting about how dissed they felt because of it. Something is wrong when that happens on a support forum. This isn't about me, it's about everyone here.
That does suck cause then you feel like not only do you not pass and haven't changed or anything, you also feel like you don't belong here or feel unwanted and rejected. I personally would rather have an honest critique that says I don't pass then deafening silence that echoes around in your fragile eggshell mind that eventually transforms into despair and destroys your confidence.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 24, 2013, 10:58:43 PM
That does suck cause then you feel like not only do you not pass and haven't changed or anything, you also feel like you don't belong here or feel unwanted and rejected. I personally would rather have an honest critique that says I don't pass then deafening silence that echoes around in your fragile eggshell mind that eventually transforms into despair and destroys your confidence.
Really? I'd just never post hahahaha
I'm another who's unlikely to be posting on any of these threads. I find the consensus of people on the other side of my front door to be quite reliable plus I've got my own opinions, which to me are the most valid.
However that saying I do see the value for those who are new or just starting out. Facing up to living your life as your acquired gender and even going out into certain situations can be quite daunting and not everyone has the support of someone else there with them in their lives.
Quote from: Just Shelly on June 24, 2013, 08:59:33 PM
I have always somewhat disliked the "you look fabulous " thread. Not because I don't feel people on their don't look good...many on their are very pretty and many look so natural...and its not because I am jealous (well maybe a little) but the main reason is why it (the original one) was started in the first place.
I for one.... have never nor never will post in the fabulous thread but I may have been put into the original one inadvertently. I feel the original one was started because of some people thinking that other people posting in the do I pass didn't belong their....It even said this in the original post.
I feel part of the reason the original thread started by Helena about 2 years ago was because of me......Not that I thought I was attractive or even natural looking during that time....but I was one of the last people to post in the do I pass before the fabulous thread started.....and the feeling I got was that I was being conceited by posting in the do I pass thread.....I even had some say things such as "oh come on you know you pass" This was not my intention at all. In fact I did feel that I was somewhat passable but just barely...and definitely not fabulous!!
Some people a bit more secure with themselves may take the compliments and roll with them...I took it as people thinking I was intentionally being conceited.
It seems people always take me wrong...even when if my words are written. I'm sure this post will be taken the wrong way. This is not my intention....my intention is that some people do not see themselves as attractive, skinny, or feminine no matter what is said.
I don't post in their now because I know I don't look fabulous....and even if 100 people told me I did it wouldn't help my self esteem anyways.....I know I blend into society just fine and most days that's good enough!!
Shelly, what a thoughtful post! You and I are on the same page in so many ways on this topic. As I had said in another thread, it is great that a few look fabulous and we should congratulate them for that and realize that it is an anomaly within the real world to be just drop-dead-gorgeous, after all isn't it preferable to not want to draw a lot of unwanted attention and scrutiny to ourselves in public and rather just blend in with the normal, average looking cis female population?
Quote from: kyh on June 25, 2013, 04:04:20 AM
Really? I'd just never post hahahaha
Yeah my opinion may not account for much since I pass IRL and have a BF so you could tell me I don't pass and I'd just go outside and everyone would say she and stuff so yeah lol
Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 25, 2013, 12:15:46 PM
Yeah my opinion may not account for much since I pass IRL and have a BF so you could tell me I don't pass and I'd just go outside and everyone would say she and stuff so yeah lol
There you go Joanna, kind of proof of the pudding I'd say huh?
To be honest I think many members here are way too fragile, easy to anger or optimistic for the threads to be as useful as they could be. Not that I think anything can or should be done about it. It just sadly happens to be so.
In the You look fabulous thread, people post according to how they think they look fabulous, no matter how it looks to them. Some post there knowing that they don't pass too well, just because they're feeling good about something. I'm not saying that's wrong, but that vastly broadens the content of the thread. Fabulous to me and fabulous to FictionalGirlX22 can very well be two different things. And honestly, would I post there to contradict her? No, that would make me an awful person, and it's not even in the purpose of the thread to give anything but positive criticism.
In the Could I pass one day? and Do I pass? threads, either because they themselves aren't in a very advantageous situation, either because they've experienced people being devastated by comments, people are often way too nice and way too optimistic regarding how feminine someone looks. You can't blame them. After someone became suicidal because I told her I didn't like how she did her make-up at all, I've learned to be less honest and/or not post.
We can't fool ourselves: all a transsexual person is likely to go through leaves marks, and that can include overreaction, defensiveness, delusion and extreme fragility, and the effects of that have been seen a lot on the forum. I don't intend to bash on anyone or blame people, and I won't go very far in this direction. All I want to say is that many of you might have noticed that Susans' members should generally be handled in a special way, to avoid anger, sadness, etc. And again, I don't mean to say that as an insult or anything remotely like that. It's just that many people who are going through a lot or did so in the past can't be interacted with like your common anyone, and by definition the coounity of this forum includes a lot of these.
As a result of that, it's sad to say, but completely honest opinions are hard to get on Susans, because commenters are biased. Sometimes they were like that to begin with, for various reasons I've hinted at before, and sometimes they became that way after seeing many trans people, or living bad reactions to their honest, constructive criticism. There are also differences in point of view. Some people think that no matter how many there are, masculine characteristics that can reasonably found in women pass completely. Others think that you don't truly pass until you're unable to remotely pass as male even if you try hard. Somewhere in the middle, there are people who think that to pass is simply to generally be seen as female by strangers. And an infinity of possibilities aside those. What it means to pass to the picture poster, to the commenter and to another commenter can be three different things, which can cause various problems. That's fine, but one has to understand that to fully understand the opinions they're given.
As for the title... Well, everyone knows a picture isn't everything, and the thread, even though it's very much centered onto that, isn't limited to pictures. If people want a more complete opinion, they can post videos or sound clips, can't they?
My only criticism is that the people in the vanity threads are like a little pack. Unless you're in with the "in crowd" don't expect to get more than a single comment or two.. if you're lucky. The three times I've posted, only one time did anyone even bother to comment. It really annoys me to no end. And, every time I've posted in them, the OP of this thread completely ignored me doing just that... So I'm sorry if I sound rude but you're not making people feel too great Auntie Shan. I've almost left this site a couple times this whole pack thing irritates me so much...
Could also be a "femme" thing. Maybe since I'm not in a dress with tons of makeup, I'm not deserving of anyone's help...
I have no problem with someone who doesn't "pass" posting in the fab thread and things like that that others have mentioned. The truth is pass to me might not be pass to you. Fab doesn't mean you're the most unbelievably femme, passing woman on the planet; it means you have the confidence, style and presentation that makes you fabulous woman.
Quote from: Michelle S. on June 25, 2013, 04:46:21 PM
My only criticism is that the people in the vanity threads are like a little pack. Unless you're in with the "in crowd" don't expect to get more than a single comment or two.. if you're lucky. The three times I've posted, only one time did anyone even bother to comment. It really annoys me to no end. And, every time I've posted in them, the OP of this thread completely ignored me doing just that... So I'm sorry if I sound rude but you're not making people feel too great Auntie Shan. I've almost left this site a couple times this whole pack thing irritates me so much...
Could also be a "femme" thing. Maybe since I'm not in a dress with tons of makeup, I'm not deserving of anyone's help...
I have no problem with someone who doesn't "pass" posting in the fab thread and things like that that others have mentioned. The truth is pass to me might not be pass to you. Fab doesn't mean you're the most unbelievably femme, passing woman on the planet; it means you have the confidence, style and presentation that makes you fabulous woman.
Next time you post you can message me a link, and I'll check it out and comment. I'm just one person, but maybe I can give you some valuable feedback.
:)
Quote from: Michelle S. on June 25, 2013, 04:46:21 PM
My only criticism is that the people in the vanity threads are like a little pack. Unless you're in with the "in crowd" don't expect to get more than a single comment or two.. if you're lucky. The thread times I've posted, only one time did anyone even bother to comment. It really annoys me to no end. And, every time I've posted in them, the OP of this thread completely ignored me doing just that... So I'm sorry if I sound rude but you're not making people feel too great Auntie Shan. I've almost left this site a couple times this whole pack thing irritates me so much...
Could also be a "femme" thing. Maybe since I'm not in a dress with tons of makeup, I'm not deserving of anyone's help...
I have no problem with someone who doesn't "pass" posting in the fab thread and things like that that others have mentioned. The truth is pass to me might not be pass to you. Fab doesn't mean you're the most unbelievably femme, passing woman on the planet; it means you have the confidence and presentation that makes you a fantastic woman that you are.
I think it is more the case that a good percentage of the members here don't go to those threads at all. So you will see the same people, the participants. Me, I stay out until the firehorn sounds.
Quote from: A on June 25, 2013, 04:34:29 PM
In the You look fabulous thread, people post according to how they think they look fabulous, no matter how it looks to them. Some post there knowing that they don't pass too well, just because they're feeling good about something. I'm not saying that's wrong, but that vastly broadens the content of the thread. Fabulous to me and fabulous to FictionalGirlX22 can very well be two different things. And honestly, would I post there to contradict her? No, that would make me an awful person, and it's not even in the purpose of the thread to give anything but positive criticism.
In the Could I pass one day? and Do I pass? threads, either because they themselves aren't in a very advantageous situation, either because they've experienced people being devastated by comments, people are often way too nice and way too optimistic regarding how feminine someone looks. You can't blame them. After someone became suicidal because I told her I didn't like how she did her make-up at all, I've learned to be less honest and/or not post.
Well I always thought the Fabulous thread wasn't for criticism but a celebration of female presentation regardless of passablity. Just the simple act of living fab and rocking cute tops and hot skirts.
And as far as the Do I Look Female thread I think it is just that. How well do I pass as female? I mean I might not be totally non-clockable but I pass as female to strangers 99 percent of time and this is with androgynous presentation. So I try not to pay to much attention to some opinions.
I know there are some here that say they are "just being honest" when they are only pointing out there minor flaws that no one else but a transsexual would ever notice and it is kind of unnecessary to point it out. There is just being honest and there is just being an A-hole. Pointing out flaws to someone who passes completely and is super pretty is not the same as being honest. Sometimes I think people confuse Do I Look Female with Do I Look Pretty. They are two different things.
BTW, I do basically completely agree with you and I actually value your opinion on passing pretty highly because I have found you are very good at walking the line between honesty and cruelty. I know you have commented on one of my photos before and said I passed but the lack of makeup to cover some acne and the beard shadow effected it. And I agree. Plus there is something I can do about that: wear makeup and get laser. So I found those were very helpful comments and prolly helped with my ability to pass as I now work harder to cover up those flaws. So that was a prime example of what I would consider honest criticism and basically telling me I pass obviously helped me think this lol
Good critique on this thread though. But lay off FictionGirlXX what did she ever do to you lol jk :P
Quote from: Michelle S. on June 25, 2013, 04:46:21 PM
My only criticism is that the people in the vanity threads are like a little pack. Unless you're in with the "in crowd" don't expect to get more than a single comment or two.. if you're lucky. The three times I've posted, only one time did anyone even bother to comment. It really annoys me to no end. And, every time I've posted in them, the OP of this thread completely ignored me doing just that... So I'm sorry if I sound rude but you're not making people feel too great Auntie Shan. I've almost left this site a couple times this whole pack thing irritates me so much...
Could also be a "femme" thing. Maybe since I'm not in a dress with tons of makeup, I'm not deserving of anyone's help...
I have no problem with someone who doesn't "pass" posting in the fab thread and things like that that others have mentioned. The truth is pass to me might not be pass to you. Fab doesn't mean you're the most unbelievably femme, passing woman on the planet; it means you have the confidence, style and presentation that makes you fabulous woman.
OMG Michelle I feel almost exactly the same way! it is uncanny. The whole pack mentality has really upset me in the past and made me feel left out. And I totally get you on the femme presentation thing. I don't wear dresses or tons of makeup either and so I feel like I shouldn't post in the Fab section because I present so andro. Though I am sure in the future I'll totally rock some lacy, femmy skirt and a cute top and some kick a** pumps. In fact I can't wait as I am waiting on laser before I go all out.
Quote from: kyh on June 25, 2013, 04:59:45 PM
Next time you post you can message me a link, and I'll check it out and comment. I'm just one person, but maybe I can give you some valuable feedback.
:)
You're so sweet and awesome kyh! Love you!
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 25, 2013, 05:02:35 PM
I think it is more the case that a good percentage of the members here don't go to those threads at all. So you will see the same people, the participants. Me, I stay out until the firehorn sounds.
No, I totally think you're right. They're not the hang out place for most of us. What bothers me though is that you can post and sit there for hours... nothing... Then someone from the "in crowd" posts and all of a sudden the thread explodes. This one person will get a page's worth of comments. But, will anyone bother to give us one? Hardly ever. That's what really grinds my gears; one person literally gets pages of replies and us, we get nothing...
I've even posted and come back to see that instead of providing me feedback, they've rehashed some "in crowder's" photos from two pages back - typically someone who's already received pages of compliments - and it turns into another "oh wow she's so pretty" for 2 more pages...
It's clearly evident just browsing. I think these threads rely on a "Hey you're my buddy here's what I think" and a "well I like how femmie you look" system that excludes people like me.
I'm really sorry to rant but again the OP of this thread has done this to me and I really have a hard to not pointing that out since we're all of a "point out flaws" mentality in this thread.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 25, 2013, 05:07:49 PM
OMG Michelle I feel almost exactly the same way! it is uncanny. The whole pack mentality has really upset me in the past and made me feel left out. And I totally get you on the femme presentation thing. I don't wear dresses or tons of makeup either and so I feel like I shouldn't post in the Fab section because I present so andro. Though I am sure in the future I'll totally rock some lacy, femmy skirt and a cute top and some kick a** pumps. In fact I can't wait as I am waiting on laser before I go all out.
Thank you. I have literally sat here crying, just destroyed because of these people. I remember the first time I posted in Could I Pass One Day. I was at a really low point in my transition, the point where I wasn't seeing the effects of HRT and I thought I would never pass. I was in such a depressive state in those days. So, I thought, hey these girls can tell be objective observers, I'm sure they can help me! I took all the photos asked by the thread description, posted and waited. Like a kid waiting for Santa, I sat here face deep in the screen. I refreshed non-stop for like 2 hours. You know what advice and help I got? Nothing. Instead I got to watch these people go goo goo over everyone else in a vibrant dress and the layers of make up. Never once did anyone ever reply to me and for that, that moment where I felt even "these people" - the trans community - thought I was too ugly to pass or worthy of help, I will not forgive those people. It hurt a lot. So think about that people next time you decide to ignore us on the little "am I pretty" threads...
Sorry for the rant, but it certainly a sore subject for me..
Also, yeah I'd love to look femme and wear dresses but I have severe Psoriasis. If you look at my avatar, it's on my neck. I literally look I just got out of a tub of boiling water. I usually wear a sweater just so I don't have to see it so the last thing my self-esteem can afford is to put some revealing dress on and post it for an entire community to potentially see. Not that I think I would be judged for it but I can't stand to see my skin and the idea of anyone else seeing it horrifies me.
Quote from: kyh on June 25, 2013, 04:59:45 PM
Next time you post you can message me a link, and I'll check it out and comment. I'm just one person, but maybe I can give you some valuable feedback.
:)
You're so sweet! Thank you so much, that would mean so much to me :)
Quote from: Michelle S. on June 25, 2013, 04:46:21 PM
My only criticism is that the people in the vanity threads are like a little pack. Unless you're in with the "in crowd" don't expect to get more than a single comment or two.. if you're lucky. The three times I've posted, only one time did anyone even bother to comment. It really annoys me to no end. And, every time I've posted in them, the OP of this thread completely ignored me doing just that... So I'm sorry if I sound rude but you're not making people feel too great Auntie Shan. I've almost left this site a couple times this whole pack thing irritates me so much...
Michelle,
Don't let me upset you, I admit to not having looked and not commenting at times and I'm thinking that it's rude and having my own epiphany about it I'm also encouraging others to leave a comment as well. I'm not a part of any pack and have a mindset about the vanity threads more like Devlyn. I don't post my own photos in them and don't look at them as religiously as others do. I simply brought the subject up to suggest a little more fair play for everyone. BTW - Saw your pix and you are very pretty and feminine appearing. My best to you Michelle!
Quote from: Michelle S. on June 25, 2013, 04:46:21 PM
My only criticism is that the people in the vanity threads are like a little pack. Unless you're in with the "in crowd" don't expect to get more than a single comment or two.. if you're lucky. The three times I've posted, only one time did anyone even bother to comment. It really annoys me to no end. And, every time I've posted in them, the OP of this thread completely ignored me doing just that... So I'm sorry if I sound rude but you're not making people feel too great Auntie Shan. I've almost left this site a couple times this whole pack thing irritates me so much...
Could also be a "femme" thing. Maybe since I'm not in a dress with tons of makeup, I'm not deserving of anyone's help...
I have no problem with someone who doesn't "pass" posting in the fab thread and things like that that others have mentioned. The truth is pass to me might not be pass to you. Fab doesn't mean you're the most unbelievably femme, passing woman on the planet; it means you have the confidence, style and presentation that makes you fabulous woman.
You properly point out that in any social structure, cliques can develop. Sometimes they are a form of mutual support.
I personally see the "Fabulous" topic as pure vanity, the "Before & After" topic as inspirational, and the other passing topics as informative.
With thousands of posts being made each day, I find it difficult to constantly visit the topics. Basically, as a moderator, I am on the lookout for trouble. That often happens on the rant boards, introductions, and in the HRT fourm.
So, I apologize if I missed your posts in any of those topics. I try to make sure no one ever fails to get feedback. Often, mine is by PM.
Michelle S.: Don't be sore about it. It's likely that in the wave of comments for that other person, your post was drowned in others. That's the big disadvantage of making it a topic instead of a section. Comments have the exact same value/visibility as "topics" (people asking for opinions). With people quoting pictures, it's made even more confusing. Tons of pictures showing up on the page, but only a few (or none!) are new. I think it's unlikely that people "snobbed" you. Most likely, they didn't see.
There's also the fact that giving constructive criticism takes a lot more effort (and implies a lot more risk) than saying "yes, it'll be great, whoo", which can lead to FEWER answers in posts in which there are obviously flaws. Both out of pure laziness/being busy and out of fear. But none? No, you need another factor for that.
And by the way, I think passing while dressing androgynous is a lot more amazing than passing in frilly clothes. :p
Quote from: Shantel on June 25, 2013, 05:28:40 PM
Michelle,
Don't let me upset you, I admit to not having looked and not commenting at times and I'm thinking that it's rude and having my own epiphany about it I'm also encouraging others to leave a comment as well. I'm not a part of any pack and have a mindset about the vanity threads more like Devlyn. I don't post my own photos in them and don't look at them as religiously as others do. I simply brought the subject up to suggest a little more fair play for everyone. BTW - Saw your pix and you are very pretty and feminine appearing. My best to you Michelle!
Thank you and I'm sorry I went off there. In all truth, you're one of those people I see as like the "mom" figure on here. So just having you acknowledge me makes me feel so much better!
Quote from: Michelle S. on June 25, 2013, 05:24:14 PM
No, I totally think you're right. They're not the hang out place for most of us. What bothers me though is that you can post and sit there for hours... nothing... Then someone from the "in crowd" posts and all of a sudden the thread explodes. This one person will get a page's worth of comments. But, will anyone bother to give us one? Hardly ever. That's what really grinds my gears; one person literally gets pages of replies and us, we get nothing...
I've even posted and come back to see that instead of providing me feedback, they've rehashed some "in crowder's" photos from two pages back - typically someone who's already received pages of compliments - and it turns into another "oh wow she's so pretty" for 2 more pages...
It's clearly evident just browsing. I think these threads rely on a "Hey you're my buddy here's what I think" and a "well I like how femmie you look" system that excludes people like me.
I'm really sorry to rant but again the OP of this thread has done this to me and I really have a hard to not pointing that out since we're all of a "point out flaws" mentality in this thread.
Thank you. I have literally sat here crying, just destroyed because of these people. I remember the first time I posted in Could I Pass One Day. I was at a really low point in my transition, the point where I wasn't seeing the effects of HRT and I thought I would never pass. I was in such a depressive state in those days. So, I thought, hey these girls can tell be objective observers, I'm sure they can help me! I took all the photos asked by the thread description, posted and waited. Like a kid waiting for Santa, I sat here face deep in the screen. I refreshed non-stop for like 2 hours. You know what advice and help I got? Nothing. Instead I got to watch these people go goo goo over everyone else in a vibrant dress and the layers of make up. Never once did anyone ever reply to me and for that, that moment where I felt even "these people" - the trans community - thought I was too ugly to pass or worthy of help, I will not forgive those people. It hurt a lot. So think about that people next time you decide to ignore us on the little "am I pretty" threads...
Sorry for the rant, but it certainly a sore subject for me..
Sorry, hon, didn't mean to touch a sore spot. I want everyone to enjoy their time here and feel respected. I don't usually visit the pass threads except on business. I posted my pic in JamieP's fashion thread because it didn't ask anyone to rate anything. Everyone in that thread is getting along.
Quote from: A on June 25, 2013, 05:34:40 PM
And by the way, I think passing while dressing androgynous is a lot more amazing than passing in frilly clothes. :p
So true. I'm certainly a femme, tomboy transgirl if such a thing existed :P
Quote from: Jamie D on June 25, 2013, 05:33:02 PM
You properly point out that in any social structure, cliques can develop. Sometimes they are a form of mutual support.
I personally see the "Fabulous" topic as pure vanity, the "Before & After" topic as inspirational, and the other passing topics as informative.
With thousands of posts being made each day, I find it difficult to constantly visit the topics. Basically, as a moderator, I am on the lookout for trouble. That often happens on the rant boards, introductions, and in the HRT fourm.
So, I apologize if I missed your posts in any of those topics. I try to make sure no one ever fails to get feedback. Often, mine is by PM.
You're right, it is a natural phenomenon. It's not anyone specifically like you, Devlyn or even Shantel - I shouldn't have name her specifically - so no need to apologize. No body does. It's just how I've felt in those threads.
I spend quite a bit of time browsing the "Vanity" threads, but I'm almost never in the mood to comment. I'm not the most social person on the planet, and, even just a few weeks back, I had to work myself up for hours to overcome my social anxiety long enough for one post. I only post when I'm REALLY in the mood for it, or it seems like someone genuinely needs help or advice.
Even when I'm in one of my more social moods, I never post more than a few times per page. When browsing other forums, I've always gotten annoyed when "picture" threads are dominated by the same few people saying "you look so great!!!" to everyone who posts - I don't want to be that guy...err...girl. I will say this - "You Look Fabulous" is purely about vanity - those who post in it should have the confidence in themselves to not rely on the words of others. We'd be better off with more photos in YLF, and more honest criticism in Do I Pass and Could I Pass One Day.
/$0.02
One interesting thing is that men tend to post their own pics far more than women do in Facebook and other similar sites (e.g., pics of belly muscles). In real world, women tend to be exhibitionist; whereas men voyeur. In a cyber world, it is the opposite. I do not know the reasons, but I have observed those tendencies.
Barbie~~
Interesting... I have the exact opposite experience with fb, Barbie. Guys seem to never change their avatar. Maybe it's a cultural thing? Idk
Anyway, I am tempted to make a new thread to talk about cliques. I have some thoughts about them, particularly the ones people have been feeling here at susans. I don't really want to derail things here tho.
Anyway, I am scared to death of posting in the threads in question now, words or otherwise lol. Also, idk.. I don't really think those threads are for me anyway. I didn't realize that until this topic was posted.
I do wish there was a place where we could kind of put faces to names without all the judgement and hurt feelings. Knowing somebody's face humanizes them, I really believe that, and the more human we seem to each other, the less bits and bytes, the more empathetic the environment becomes, imo.
I do get why people's feelings have been hurt and I do understand how and why some of us end up with such fragile psyches, from personal experience. I will try to never lose sight of that. If you feel insecure and vulnerable and on the verge of shattering always, please know I've been there. I always felt that I would go through the rest of my life fractured and on the verge of falling to bits—a shattered teacup that had been glued back together. I was so amazed to see, as I changed course with my life, that hideous fissured web that I could barely even hold together start mending itself and HEALING... less like porcelain, more like bone. I just want to give y'all that bit of hope. In time, if you go the right way with your life, you will become more emotionally resilient than you ever thought possible.
That said, we will always carry our scars. They should serve to remind us of where we came from, so that (among other things) we always treat those that are still fragile and broken, and not yet out of the woods, with gentleness, kindness, and grace. I really am sorry if ever lost sight of anybody's feelings, and it doesn't even matter if it was completely unintentional. I should know better and I should never, ever forget how it felt to be there, and I MUST make sure that with what I say (and neglect to say) I am always bearing in mind people's vulnerability.
Quote from: Jen on June 25, 2013, 07:59:07 PM
Anyway, I am tempted to make a new thread to talk about cliques. I have some thoughts about them, particularly the ones people have been feeling here at susans. I don't really want to derail things here tho.
You could if you like. I've definitely sensed their presence, but that hasn't stopped me from interacting in positive ways with the people in them. But then, I'm not shy at all and have no problems talking to new people. But yeah I can see why others would feel intimidated by these already established cliques that may seem really inaccessible to them.
Perhaps this is the wine talking, but so much conversation over a thread meant to share images. Who cares so much about the qualifications? Fabulous is different to different people. Why should we really care about people flaunting what they got if they don't pass or not. I really don't get why people get up in arms about this either way. what integrity really exists within a thread for sheet vanity anyway. Besides we have so many people attack us in general society why do we need to create an hierarchy of attractiveness here on the site. It seems counter productive to being a support site to have people look at another and say you aren't fabulous. Shouldn't this be the place they can come and feel fabulous regardless of the overall image? I just feel this is so high school for us to go "oh she shouldn't be posting here". We are all better than this. Give honest feedback on the passing threads (while remaining kind) but let's not cast people aside as not fabulous because they aren't the ideal beauty. There are different reasons to feel fabulous.
Quote from: Jen on June 25, 2013, 07:59:07 PM
Interesting... I have the exact opposite experience with fb, Barbie. Guys seem to never change their avatar. Maybe it's a cultural thing? Idk
Anyway, I am tempted to make a new thread to talk about cliques. I have some thoughts about them, particularly the ones people have been feeling here at susans. I don't really want to derail things here tho.
Anyway, I am scared to death of posting in the threads in question now, words or otherwise lol. Also, idk.. I don't really think those threads are for me anyway. I didn't realize that until this topic was posted.
I do wish there was a place where we could kind of put faces to names without all the judgement and hurt feelings. Knowing somebody's face humanizes them, I really believe that, and the more human we seem to each other, the less bits and bytes, the more empathetic the environment becomes, imo.
I do get why people's feelings have been hurt and I do understand how and why some of us end up with such fragile psyches, from personal experience. I will try to never lose sight of that. If you feel insecure and vulnerable and on the verge of shattering always, please know I've been there. I always felt that I would go through the rest of my life fractured and on the verge of falling to bits—a shattered teacup that had been glued back together. I was so amazed to see, as I changed course with my life, that hideous fissured web that I could barely even hold together start mending itself and HEALING... less like porcelain, more like bone. I just want to give y'all that bit of hope. In time, if you go the right way with your life, you will become more emotionally resilient than you ever thought possible.
That said, we will always carry our scars. They should serve to remind us of where we came from, so that (among other things) we always treat those that are still fragile and broken, and not yet out of the woods, with gentleness, kindness, and grace. I really am sorry if ever lost sight of anybody's feelings, and it doesn't even matter if it was completely unintentional. I should know better and I should never, ever forget how it felt to be there, and I MUST make sure that with what I say (and neglect to say) I am always bearing in mind people's vulnerability.
Thank you for posting this Jen. I know well about the physical and emotional scars that we accrue just by continuing to live. I mentioned them before.
Don't be scared, though, to offer an opinion, a bit of advice, or just a few comforting words. You are good at that. It comes from being kind-hearted and understanding.
From a complete newbie - pre-everything. I get a lot of inspiration from all of those threads.
I think with almost every post I see "wow, she looks incredible". The funny thing is that is even true in the "will I pass one day" threads.
There are of course exceptions, but they are maybe 1/10.
While posting a moment ago, I got a flashback of a popular song from my youth. Wonderfully catty.
BLONDIE Rip Her To Shreds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLNtC5KBNGw#)
None of this on the boards though!
I think the vanity threads are one of the site's more important feature's to lurkers and those considering transition. I know when I first really started to consider it and then kept saying "it'll never work, ever" those threads and seeing what happens after a year or so of HRT gave me the confidence I needed to say this actually could work. And now it's working! And it's been about 14 months since I found this site and now I am well into transtion and living the life I have always dreamed of and I no longer feel so dead and broken inside.
Also, I think now that this thread has been aired and we all see some of the thread's failings we as a community will fix it and make it better. All things being equal, I think this is one of the most sensitive, empathetic community on the Web that I've seen and that happens for one reason: the people who post here. I'm going to give us all a pat on the back lol