Randomly wandering around the Internet last night I saw this link and wanted to share it: http://ftmguide.rassaku.net/ (http://ftmguide.rassaku.net/)
I hadn't seen it before, and it is by far the best guide I've seen for passing and generally looking completely male. One thing the author really harps on is the importance of the V shape to passing, IE - your shoulders need to be wider than your hips, and if they aren't - do not despair, you can change that.
I think many times, people post on the "do I pass?" thread and nobody can locate why they don't pass given their facial features, but it is probably a combination of body shape and height. We can't do anything about height, but you can get the V shape by losing weight to reduce hip size and working out your shoulders to deemphasize curves.
I thought this picture from his page was the best summary of his point;
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fftmguide.rassaku.net%2Froadmap.gif&hash=ca5f0c9968d7ffcac1197fc2bccff3db27dcb521)
As someone shaped exactly like the first triangle, working out my shoulders is something I really want to put effort into. Push-ups seem to be the way to do it without going to the gym. I've heard things before about following this routine: http://www.hundredpushups.com/ (http://www.hundredpushups.com/) Sort of like Couch to 5k but for pushups.
Quote from: spacerace on July 05, 2013, 02:06:35 PM
As someone shaped exactly like the first triangle, working out my shoulders is something I really want to put effort into. Push-ups seem to be the way to do it without going to the gym. I've heard things before about following this routine: http://www.hundredpushups.com/ (http://www.hundredpushups.com/) Sort of like Couch to 5k but for pushups.
Oh hey, I have that book. I started the program this week. It's brutal :P
I do believe I've done more pushups this week than in the last five years already. I like how pushups also help your sides. I would recommend doing it if you were thinking about it.
I've been doing the "Body Beast" program from Beachbody, and the shoulder workouts are amazing. Since I am pre-T, I haven't really gotten very big, but I can tell my shoulders have gotten broader and my hips are smaller. It has a lot of traditional moves like shrugs, lateral raises, presses, etc. I do push-ups, but for some reason, if I do more than just a few, it hurts my right forearm. I think one of the muscles in my right forearm is a little off, because I can usually feel it moving around where I don't in my left arm.
I haven't really even tried to pass since my shoulders have broadened, but I do agree that it's really helpful in passing. That's one of the first things I notice about men when I am out and about, and usually when I see someone who's kind of andro looking, shoulder size is one of the things that catches my attention if I am trying to decide whether to call someone a he/she.
I had stumbled upon that page a few weeks ago, and I agree it's the best guide I've seen so far. Made me also realize I should get a better haircut which I'm going to do next week and I've been doing weight lifting and push-ups every day since reading that.
I don't know if that's true. I am passing about 15% of the time and sure don't have that shape. Thing is I know guys who have been on T for years and years and still have big hips and so on. They pass 100% of the time. Your shape is one thing out of thousands of factors. Gendering is done subconsciously imo and based on lots of different things.
--Jay
Of course the V shape isn't the defining feature that separates the two genders, but it DEFINITELY helps when it comes to passing. I'm lucky and have VERY wide shoulders (I don't know if lucky's the right word, since the rest of me is small so I can never find clothes that fit), but even so, I'm still working hard at the gym to create an even stronger V shape.
I do most of the arm machines, and go as heavy as possible. I'm already starting to build more shoulder muscle, to the point where I almost have definition without flexing despite my arm fat (almost is a huge breakthrough for me). I'm having trouble building my back muscles as much, but I think that's because it's just harder to target that area, so the growth comes slower. I'm fairly certain eventually when my shoulders are big enough, my back will have built up some as well and I'll have a much better overall shape.
One thing's for certain, having a V shape will help more than anything once I finally get top surgery and can go topless on the beach! ;)
Quote from: aleon515 on July 05, 2013, 03:23:47 PM
I don't know if that's true. I am passing about 15% of the time and sure don't have that shape. Thing is I know guys who have been on T for years and years and still have big hips and so on. They pass 100% of the time. Your shape is one thing out of thousands of factors. Gendering is done subconsciously imo and based on lots of different things.
--Jay
If my post made it seem like you absolutely had to have a V shape to pass, that was not my intention. Of course people pass without it. I more just that meant that for those with us with a pear shape, working out your shoulders can really help.
Out of curiosity I measured the width of my shoulders (from the boney part on top, not around the fat/muscle) and then I measured my hips (again, from the boney part). My hips are 5 inches narrower than my shoulders. If I could manage to loose the hip/butt/thigh fat I'd have a natural V shape without pumping my shoulders up. I feel enormously happy with this news. Now all it'll take is shedding almost 100 pounds of fat.
Quote from: randomroads on July 05, 2013, 04:53:45 PM
Out of curiosity I measured the width of my shoulders (from the boney part on top, not around the fat/muscle) and then I measured my hips (again, from the boney part). My hips are 5 inches narrower than my shoulders. If I could manage to loose the hip/butt/thigh fat I'd have a natural V shape without pumping my shoulders up. I feel enormously happy with this news. Now all it'll take is shedding almost 100 pounds of fat.
I just did the same after reading yours, my shoulders are 6 inches bigger at the bones than the widest part of my hips. Though, it's kind of hard to really measure my shoulders. I don't think my shoulders look bigger, so maybe I did it wrong?
Though if I follow this formula that's in the article:
QuoteBe careful not to confuse hips with waist -- both male and female bodies can be narrow at the waist, but women then get wider again at the hips (which results in curves) while men aren't appreciably wider in the hips than in the waist. If you want to put numbers to it, .7 is considered the healthy waist/hip ratio for women, and .9 for men. To find your own, take a tape measure and divide the number of inches around your waist by the number of inches around your hips.
my number is 0.822, so I am right in between the numbers for a cis-male and a cis-female, yay! maybe if I do a bit more jogging and weight lifting I'll be down (or up? I suck at math) to .9 soon.
How much of body shape is determined by the skeleton? I know for me my clavicle is wider than my hip bone. Further, my rib cage flares out wider than my hip bone. Both make any development of curves pretty much an impossibility for me. In fact, my body is optimized for maintaining a classic male V shape. Of course, I was born XY and went through male puberty.
Everyone's body is different, and some have an excellent starting point for transition while others not so much. I guess there are things to mitigate our original puberty, but keep in mind your body's limitations.
The "V" shape is largely dependent on having wide shoulders. For those transguys who have finished puberty without broad shoulders, you can work on building muscles. Member Jamison comes to mind, in the respect.
Some natal females, especially swimmers who start early, develop wide, "masculine" shoulders. On the other hand, no one mistakes them for male when they are competing, even if they have low body fat and minimal breast growth.
So the body shape is only part of the equation. Putting forward a masculine gender presentation, and adopting a masculine attitude, will perhaps go farther for you than worrying about body shape.
Quote from: Xena the Warrior Princess on July 05, 2013, 09:36:27 PM
So the body shape is only part of the equation. Putting forward a masculine gender presentation, and adopting a masculine attitude, will perhaps go farther for you than worrying about body shape.
Agreed. My post was more about making the point to manage expectations when it comes to body changes. There are limitations to how much our bodies will change. I think sometimes people see excellent results in others and strive for more than their bodies will allow, and then they become disappointed in what they perceive as a lack of results. However, as you mention, there are other aspects involved as well, and body type is only one variable in the equation.
Very good observation. Sometimes we all get caught up in the "expectations" game.
I really disagree with it, and think it's kind of ridiculous. The ability to change shape isn't really that easy. Building up your upper body to be top heavy when you have wide hips is very very hard, and for some people it's not really possible. Masculinity isn't all of it either, there's a lot of feminine trans guys out there who get seen as male as much as any cis guy.
I just think that it's a really really shallow one dimensional way of looking at things, and it's never that simple.
Quote from: Xena the Warrior Princess on July 05, 2013, 09:36:27 PM
So the body shape is only part of the equation. Putting forward a masculine gender presentation, and adopting a masculine attitude, will perhaps go farther for you than worrying about body shape.
I don't really think so. I feel like finding a comfortable balance between doing what you want to/what makes you feel good and "masculinity/male stereotypes" is what's needed. Doing what makes you feel good generally gives more confidence over masculinity, and the concept of masculinity is still really foreign to me.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 05, 2013, 11:30:21 PM
I really disagree with it, and think it's kind of ridiculous. The ability to change shape isn't really that easy. Building up your upper body to be top heavy when you have wide hips is very very hard, and for some people it's not really possible. Masculinity isn't all of it either, there's a lot of feminine trans guys out there who get seen as male as much as any cis guy.
I just think that it's a really really shallow one dimensional way of looking at things, and it's never that simple.
I don't think the author was saying "this is the only way you can be a man" or "this is the only way you can pass". I read the entire article and it did say that it's hard for FAABs, even on T, to look like an inverted triangle. He also mentions that getting to a certain low BMI on FAABs can be dangerous. He also mentions that most likely, the best we can hope for is being the "that guy" box. I don't want anyone here to starve themselves or take steroids to get big shoulders and small hips, but I don't think encouraging people to exercise and diet (in a healthy manner) is a bad thing. Of course, if people don't want to exercise, they can still pass. I've seen some guys who aren't an inverted triangle who pass.
I am just also going to add, so I don't seem one dimensional, that I lift weights and workout because it makes me feel better--being stronger makes me feel more masculine, and I don't expect to ever look like a man, but if it just happens to come about, wooya for me. Maybe I won't feel this way forever, but just the feeling of masculinity that I have from lifting weights and feeling stronger takes away a lot of my urge to go on T -- if I feel so manly, I don't see the point of going through the time and expense of getting on T just to reinforce how I already feel. Even though I do feel more masculine, I know I just actually look physically more feminine, I still have a lot of curves and this would probably be my best summer in a bikini if I wanted to wear one, but I am going to keep doing what I am doing anyway. :) (I like the endorphin rush lol)
Didn't read the link in the OP. Read two paragraphs, regret it.
Quote from: LearnedHand on July 06, 2013, 12:17:17 AM
He also mentions that most likely, the best we can hope for is being the "that guy" box.
Oh so I'm lucky to have 'that guy' shape? :laugh: Maybe if I continue building muscle and losing weight, I'll get the V. lol
Anyway, I've seen plenty of wide-hipped guys (though I have occasionally wondered if they were trans but I doubt the cis population does). Some guys with broad shoulders also have broad hips.
I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out tips that might aid passability. As we know, it's a combination of things. If you otherwise look and sound like a girl, no V shape will help you.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 05, 2013, 11:30:21 PM
The ability to change shape isn't really that easy.
I agree, but there's nothing wrong with shooting for it as long you're realistic about the results. But I don't workout expecting much more than a fitter, stronger body. I wouldn't get too invested in achieving a certain look. I am looking to build up my shoulders as much as possible though.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 05, 2013, 11:32:36 PM
I don't really think so. I feel like finding a comfortable balance between doing what you want to/what makes you feel good and "masculinity/male stereotypes" is what's needed. Doing what makes you feel good generally gives more confidence over masculinity, and the concept of masculinity is still really foreign to me.
Yeah, I'd say confidence is more vital than masculine presentation. And if you're worrying about whether you appear 'masculine' or not, that's like the opposite of confidence. I still have this issue myself - worrying about passing, worrying I'll 'come off gay' (not that I think there's anything wrong with that), etc. If I had more confidence, I wouldn't worry about these things.
I do think there are a lot of useful and interesting notes in the Rassaku guide. For instance, how small changes can make a big visual difference. Example for me is Tshirts vs Polo shirts. Because of the collar detail on polos, my overall shape is completely different to if I wore a crew neck tshirt. With my rounded shoulders from years of hiding moobs plus not being the bulkiest, the harsh truth is just a less male impression.
....I read upstream some measures of chest versus backside. Two posters measured difference at 4 inches.
I just checked myself (I'm a gay guy) and only four inches in the difference, and I work out....and have for years....
How much of body shape is determined by the skeleton?
There is the widening of the shoulder girdle at puberty for cis-males--but--a *lot* of the V shape from behind is because of the lats. Gym and lats (and pecs) is where I get an extra 5 or so inches on measurements.
I've seen really 'male' looking slender bodies, medium bodies and larger bodies. Tone. The word 'cut' comes to mind, or 'ripped'. In the gym set, the guys always say that a guy looks bigger if he's got a lower BMI....
cheers
stav
Quote from: stavraki on July 06, 2013, 08:12:04 AM
There is the widening of the shoulder girdle at puberty for cis-males--but--a *lot* of the V shape from behind is because of the lats. Gym and lats (and pecs) is where I get an extra 5 or so inches on measurements.
Thanks stav. Was wondering that. I just recently started going to the gym again (hadn't been since high school). I do the exercises labeled 'shoulder' and 'lats' on the machines but other than that have no clue. Any tips?
There are definitely some handy tips in that article. The unfortunate reality for me, though, is that my preferred mode of exercise(/my career) is hiking... which is far more likely to buff up my thighs than my shoulders. To which I say: Oh well. *shrugs*
I may look into doing some swimming for some shoulder muscle building, though, since swimming has the added bonus of strengthening my forever-aching back. And offering some nerdy marine biologist opportunities, to boot.
...and confidence, or bearing, or sense of yourself as male......state of maleness of mind. If you know and you feel male and just are male, everyone else will appreciate that....
the aesthetics - how you 'radiate' the inner man - gay guys have a bucket of terms to 'capture' different kinds of masculinity as we admire.
- One of mine - a fruff - 'fashion-rough' look. A fruff is a 'masc' guy who looks just that touch 'rough' but who's chosen fashion combos to make that so. A guy with stubble, a cap,
- gym gear, 'sports kit' is another term,
- a 'uniform' another we use (authority fashion),
- a 'bear' is another one (a lot of facial hair), bigger guy - more girth in the middle -
- 'a suit' is another term we use, or clothes 'that maketh the man' as they used to say -
they're all just stereotypes, though.....
cheers
stav
Quote from: Fitter Admin on July 06, 2013, 08:17:21 AM
Thanks stav. Was wondering that. I just recently started going to the gym again (hadn't been since high school). I do the exercises labeled 'shoulder' and 'lats' on the machines but other than that have no clue. Any tips?
:)
Combine lateral pulldowns (these really are the bulk of the good work), with deltoid work (dumbbell flies--they're the ones where you hold your arms out wide and raise from side of body to horizontal). And the deltoids give another inch to inch and a half (your upper arm muscle, off the shoulder). A good deltoid really makes a masculine 'look'.
Compliment with pecs (chest press) work, triceps and biceps.....voila!
And - *push* the weight gain. As you add weight, keep upping the reps....you should be grunting and in agony by repetition 8 at first. Add a rep at a time until you get to 12 reps--then up the weight and drop the reps back to 8.
My favourite saying at gym is pain....is.....my......friend :)
To strip fat - ride to a gym that's 30 to 45 minutes away. Don't take your car. And make sure to rest between hard workouts at least a day. The rest actually lets your muscle grow....go about 3 to 4 times a week.
If you're not *SORE* day after a workout - UP the weights and work *harder*. It's gotta *hurt* the day after ha ha ha
:)
Quote from: Fitter Admin on July 06, 2013, 07:58:13 AM
I agree, but there's nothing wrong with shooting for it as long you're realistic about the results. But I don't workout expecting much more than a fitter, stronger body. I wouldn't get too invested in achieving a certain look. I am looking to build up my shoulders as much as possible though.
Shoulder injuries seem very very common within trans people who take testosterone, so working out trying to get that kind of shape can be harmful.
Quote
Yeah, I'd say confidence is more vital than masculine presentation. And if you're worrying about whether you appear 'masculine' or not, that's like the opposite of confidence. I still have this issue myself - worrying about passing, worrying I'll 'come off gay' (not that I think there's anything wrong with that), etc. If I had more confidence, I wouldn't worry about these things.
But it seems like if you're worrying if you come across as gay then you do have a problem with that...at least internally.
The whole concept of masculinity is jacked up. I really dislike how the author of the link uses "The T word" numerous times, it's not our word to reclaim.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 06, 2013, 11:06:20 AM
Shoulder injuries seem very very common within trans people who take testosterone, so working out trying to get that kind of shape can be harmful. But it seems like if you're worrying if you come across as gay then you do have a problem with that...at least internally.
The whole concept of masculinity is jacked up. I really dislike how the author of the link uses "The T word" numerous times, it's not our word to reclaim.
I have a dear friend who hosts a website about internalised homophobia, and the whole 'masc guy' thing......yes, you're right: stereotypes are powerful and sometimes harmful....
what do we mean by 'masculine'.....touchy, difficult and extremely loaded topic
kind regards
stav
Quote from: Nygeel on July 06, 2013, 11:06:20 AM
Shoulder injuries seem very very common within trans people who take testosterone, so working out trying to get that kind of shape can be harmful.
Really? Never heard of that.
QuoteBut it seems like if you're worrying if you come across as gay then you do have a problem with that...at least internally.
Possibly.
QuoteThe whole concept of masculinity is jacked up.
It's odd how I never once cared about being masculine or anything like that as a female - that's just what people said about me. Now I kind of feel like this whole 'masculinity' thing has been thrust on me the second I started passing and can't say I care for it much. It seems like so much of what passes for being male is keeping up appearances. At least around here.
Okay, that was off topic,.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 06, 2013, 11:06:20 AM
Shoulder injuries seem very very common within trans people who take testosterone, so working out trying to get that kind of shape can be harmful. But it seems like if you're worrying if you come across as gay then you do have a problem with that...at least internally.
Any sort of injury is going to come about if people, trans or not, don't use proper form. We shouldn't avoid working out, or encouraging others to workout, just because some folks don't do form checks or are overly excited and lift too much. While I want to get big, I make sure that I don't go up on weights too fast, I'd rather lift light and build muscles slower than get hurt. A little common sense is all people need.
Speaking of realism, there are about six basic body types: ectomorph, mesomorph, and endomorph, and a taller and shorter version for each.
An ectomorph isn't just someone skinny, they actually have a smaller bone structure. They can wrap their thumb and middle finger around their wrist and have them overlap.
A mesomorph is what the link was saying you want to look like. They have a larger bone structure than the ectomorph, and they tend to put on muscle more quickly. If they wrap their thumb and middle finger around their wrist, they only just touch.
An endomorph is the largest of the bone structures. They also gain fat more quickly. They can't wrap their thumb and middle finger around their wrist and make them touch.
So the uber defined V shape comes only with the mesomorphic body type. If that's not what you have, you'll never get it. There's nothing wrong with that. If you follow the link on the first post, there are pictures of people with other body types too. On the comparison of skinny guy vs. person in a binder, they were both ectomorphs- the skinny guy still had wider shoulders. On an endomorph, well, they tend to look like bears. Especially if they're hairy.
I think it's important to be realistic about your bone structure, however, it's always possible to exercise and bulk up the muscles to build up the line, however no amount of exercise will change you from a short ectomorph to a tall mesomorph, so you should be prepared for that. If that's what you're expecting, you're setting yourself up for failure.
But there's still a good reason to exercise. Even if you pass without it, wouldn't you like to be strong enough to climb out of a burning building?
Quote from: Ansley Ender on July 06, 2013, 12:09:59 PM
So the uber defined V shape comes only with the mesomorphic body type. If that's not what you have, you'll never get it. There's nothing wrong with that.
I agree about the body types. I am an ectomorph, and my V shape is not super well defined. However, there is enough of a V shape to make developing curves an impossibility. Now would be a good time to mention that my smaller body type does aid me in my transition, so even though my body proportions are wrong my small size compensates for that shortcoming. I know that I am going in the opposite direction, but I would imagine the same holds true for FTMs. Anyway, usually it is give and take with transitions. At least, that has been my experience so far.
The above is true (to an extent*). I have a bigger build and have always had wider shoulders as a result. I still think confidence and the way to hold yourself overrules. I'd say dress, confidence and actions before I think about the factor of shape. For example, walking like a man is very different to walking like a woman. If you have a V shape but walk like a woman, your shape won't mean jack. Also, the problem I have with a bigger build also means I have a larger chest area which makes hiding the moobs harder! So pre-Top surgery it could actually hinder passing over help.
*how fingers fit around wrist isn't a great indicator because the length of people's fingers vary as well as hand-span. I have a bigger build but I'm also a pianist (steady now...be mature! :P) and can easily reach a 10th on the piano, so I can actually fit thumb to pinky (just touching) around my wrist, but I do have a V shape that I'm working on to make even better. So that would make the above out of whack a bit. Wrist example aside, it's true though. Some will work their arse off and get really buff and still not have the best V shape, and some could have little toning and be lucky (like my brother: the king of video games and staring at a dumbbell like it's an alien device he couldn't begin to figure out).
Quote from: Jack_M on July 06, 2013, 03:31:42 PM
The above is true (to an extent*). I have a bigger build and have always had wider shoulders as a result. I still think confidence and the way to hold yourself overrules. I'd say dress, confidence and actions before I think about the factor of shape. For example, walking like a man is very different to walking like a woman. If you have a V shape but walk like a woman, your shape won't mean jack. Also, the problem I have with a bigger build also means I have a larger chest area which makes hiding the moobs harder! So pre-Top surgery it could actually hinder passing over help.
*how fingers fit around wrist isn't a great indicator because the length of people's fingers vary as well as hand-span. I have a bigger build but I'm also a pianist (steady now...be mature! :P) and can easily reach a 10th on the piano, so I can actually fit thumb to pinky (just touching) around my wrist, but I do have a V shape that I'm working on to make even better. So that would make the above out of whack a bit. Wrist example aside, it's true though. Some will work their arse off and get really buff and still not have the best V shape, and some could have little toning and be lucky (like my brother: the king of video games and staring at a dumbbell like it's an alien device he couldn't begin to figure out).
Mmmpb nmubnm mm <beet red, biting tongue, leaving in a hurry>
I think when people don't pass even after being T or they are pre-T and want to do what they can to help themselves, it is a process where different approaches are taken, and this is just one of those things to try.
Trying to make yourself in better shape and working on your appearance is not just a "masculine" thing. Yes, the context it was presented in was about passing - passing itself concerns how other people perceive you, so that is why it was framed that way. Personally, the more I work at improving my appearance in the context of losing weight and trying to work out, my confidence has improved. As mentioned in the thread, it is all tied together.
I also saw this video some guy created and wanted to add it to the thread because it is relevant and helpful:
Ftm - get the V shape! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HgkX--VZaQ#)
Quote from: Jack_M on July 06, 2013, 03:31:42 PM
*how fingers fit around wrist isn't a great indicator because the length of people's fingers vary as well as hand-span.
True, but most books say that's the easiest way to find out without a professional. I suppose a measuring tape would work as well, but somehow reading 5.5in is really depressing...
Quote from: Nygeel on July 06, 2013, 11:06:20 AM
The whole concept of masculinity is jacked up. I really dislike how the author of the link uses "The T word" numerous times, it's not our word to reclaim.
It's a word for anyone who has had it used against them to reclaim. I had it used against me many times when I worked third shift weekends in a 24 hour diner. One too many drunken rednecks have used that word against me before I passed. Such can be life in the deep South. I've been known to use it around my gf when referring to myself (not when I am referring to others) and will continue to do so.
Ok, as far as the OP question. My shoulders are quite a bit wider than my hips but I think I was blessed with that because of the higher T levels I have had since my first puberty. When I didn't pass in other ways it didn't really help all that much. Now I am thankful to be built like I am. Now I just need to get in shape.
I have seen guys who were bowling pin shaped and I do think it hurt them a bit. Everyone is different but it is uncommon to see a cis male with disproportionally larger hips and butt.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 06, 2013, 11:06:20 AM
Shoulder injuries seem very very common within trans people who take testosterone, so working out trying to get that kind of shape can be harmful. But it seems like if you're worrying if you come across as gay then you do have a problem with that...at least internally.
The whole concept of masculinity is jacked up. I really dislike how the author of the link uses "The T word" numerous times, it's not our word to reclaim.
Testosterone use can cause your muscles to blow so fast as to outstrip the ability of the tendons to keep up.
Shoulder and arm injuries are "diagnostic" of male athletes who are "juicing" - as well as mountains of acne.
Having wider hips has made me really self conscious, specially when around skinny guys. Wider shoulders would help, but as others have pointed out, working too hard on them might do more harm than good.
It's my understanding that T itself might be helpful on getting the V shape, so I'll just hope for that and try exercising to keep fit.
Quote from: Simon on July 06, 2013, 07:58:04 PM
It's a word for anyone who has had it used against them to reclaim.
I don't think that's necessarily true...? That specific slur is disproportionally used against AMAB trans* people.
Quote from: Lucas R on July 06, 2013, 11:47:57 PM
I don't think that's necessarily true...? That specific slur is disproportionally used against AMAB trans* people.
Just to be clear, I'd rather not discuss if I have the merits necessary to reclaim a word that has been used multiple times against
me personally. Regardless of who you guys deem "worthy" of using it...fact is I don't care. If you have a finger poked in your chest while being called one or backed into a corner and asked if you are "a ->-bleeped-<-" then maybe you'll understand why some trans people (and yes Transmen) choose to reclaim it. If you've never been affected by it or if you just choose not to use it yourself that is fine.
Quote from: Simon on July 06, 2013, 07:58:04 PM
It's a word for anyone who has had it used against them to reclaim. I had it used against me many times when I worked third shift weekends in a 24 hour diner. One too many drunken rednecks have used that word against me before I passed. Such can be life in the deep South. I've been known to use it around my gf when referring to myself (not when I am referring to others) and will continue to do so.
Sweet, so if I'm a straight guy who didn't meet a standard of macho, I can call myself a f*g because I get picked on about not being masculine enough? These words have history as well as a common usage and that is not with us.
We are drifting off topic.
Quote from: Lucas R on July 06, 2013, 11:47:57 PM
Having wider hips has made me really self conscious, specially when around skinny guys. Wider shoulders would help, but as others have pointed out, working too hard on them might do more harm than good.
Form. Form during exercising. Highly protective. As you bulk up and accumulate muscle mass, that protects against certain kinds of injuries, especially knee injuries. Good quads and leg muscles are protective of the knee joints for example.
I've been pushing myself at gym for over 20 years (not quite true--I took 4 years off when I was 33 while I studied--when I was single at 39, I went back to gym for obvious reasons). I've done minor injuries to myself.
QuoteIt's my understanding that T itself might be helpful on getting the V shape, so I'll just hope for that and try exercising to keep fit.
I suspect that there's a high-risk window shortly after starting testosterone, where you'll be able to push the muscles in ways not possible, previously. Once the muscle tissue adapts and as you redefine the body, a new equilibrium will emerge at a new capacity.
There's a 'rule of thumb' we toss around at the various gyms I've been to, 'your own weight and not more' for keeping away from injuries. So--at 72 kg, 72 kg of lateral pulldowns, and any more than that *take greater care*. I got the lat machine up to 105 kg at top end, for a low-fat 72 kg body, and then I hurt myself, in a minor way, so I took the weight down. I've healed the injury, but learned the lesson.
For most of the other weights, like dumbbell flies, tricep curls, and those weights where your top end's about 20 to 30 kg (50-70 lb), it's hard to damage your body. It's the back you have to watch the most and is most susceptible to damage. Form. A personal trainer for a bunch of sessions for first month, then a break as you go solo, then return to perfect technique with another set of sessions with a personal trainer to get the form right.
Cheers
stav
Quote from: spacerace on July 07, 2013, 01:35:50 AM
I am not sure your analogy really works.
A gay person that is called a f** is getting insulted for being who they are. A straight person getting called a f** is insulted by being compared to a gay person.
A straight person getting called that and then using it it, is not 'reclaiming' it like a gay person is.
And the T word has historical significance to trans women just in the same way. So although a person who is not a trans woman is being called that word, it doesn't mean they can reclaim it.
just re-read the opening post....push ups - are really really good for the 'core work'. Core work's about all the 'stabilising muscles'.
There's two basic sets of principles they speak about during body building: 'isolated muscle work' versus 'whole body work'.
The machines in the gym for specific muscles tend to do the isolated muscle work...one muscle at a time. Roman rings, rope work, sit ups, chin ups, push ups--they do core work. Also, free weights do more of the core work...
I highly recommend combining both kinds of work. Free weights/core work + machine work.
Also - *rotate* your routine. I work the bod in three 'parts' 'upper/chest' work one day 'mid' the next and 'leg/lower' third. And a break off after the third day.
I'm getting MDL phalloplasty in August, so, I've stopped the chest work! It's a *great* way to get that extra 30cm of skin they need for the surgery. As my pecs shrink, the skin loosens....you'll find with gym work that as you bulk up, you will stretch the skin to your new body shape (not badly, and it does shrink back, somewhat, if you stop).
Again, though, that 'V' thing you are looking for,
Lats+deltoids+pecs+*thicken* your waste with core work. For your legs--as you go on T, you'll strip a lot of fat. You will most certainly still look very 'V' like even with thicker legs! Rugby look, after all--
Thicken your waste as you build the top...I've seen some absolutely amazing post-surgery muscle development on FTM! Really! Way better than a lot of guys who *do* work out. It's the *sculpting* of the muscles and tone and stripping fat that gives the look you seek......
It's *discipline*. Gym is *discipline*. The disciplined gym guys are the ones who get the body development result they are looking for. Also, I highly recommend combining an *aerobic* component, not by sitting there on a machine. Choose a gym 30 minutes away by bicycle, and use the opportunity to ride too and from. I ride, 1.5 hours a day to and from gym on gym days, and do a 30 to 45 minute routine--*seven* exercises.
You will *not* know yourself. If you do this right, on Testosterone, expect - a V
cheers
stav
are pictures (jpg) files of body building exercises allowed, on thread? I'd love to share how to do this with some pics.....
:)
Quote from: Nygeel on July 07, 2013, 01:28:45 AM
Sweet, so if I'm a straight guy who didn't meet a standard of macho, I can call myself a f*g because I get picked on about not being masculine enough? These words have history as well as a common usage and that is not with us.
Not if you're straight you can't. You could call yourself a sissy though because that is the word used to demean effeminate men. If you were a gay transman you could call yourself a f*g but then again if we used your argument you couldn't because it belongs to cis gay men because they are the ones who have been subjected to it being used against them the most often.
Quote from: Simon on July 07, 2013, 02:09:00 AM
Not if you're straight you can't. You could call yourself a sissy though because that is the word used to demean effeminate men. If you were a gay transman you could call yourself a f*g but then again if we used your argument you couldn't because it belongs to cis gay men because they are the ones who have been subjected to it being used against them the most often.
I'm just going to have to shake my head, smile and deal with the fact that some guys just aren't going to understand why that word isn't theirs to reclaim.
hi there :) -- check the last post, bottom of last page peoples..... :)
Quote from: Nygeel on July 07, 2013, 02:12:07 AM
I'm just going to have to shake my head, smile and deal with the fact that some guys just aren't going to understand why that word isn't theirs to reclaim.
Why not just admit that you realized your argument is weak. ::)
It is mine and I reclaimed it long ago...without your permission.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 07, 2013, 01:28:45 AM
Quote from: Simon on July 06, 2013, 07:58:04 PM
It's a word for anyone who has had it used against them to reclaim. I had it used against me many times when I worked third shift weekends in a 24 hour diner. One too many drunken rednecks have used that word against me before I passed. Such can be life in the deep South. I've been known to use it around my gf when referring to myself (not when I am referring to others) and will continue to do so.
Sweet, so if I'm a straight guy who didn't meet a standard of macho, I can call myself a f*g because I get picked on about not being masculine enough? These words have history as well as a common usage and that is not with us.
Not quite the same thing. The 'T' word has its roots in trans* which is a word for both trans men and women. Sure, it's mostly been used against trans women but it's also sometimes used against trans guys. And while a straight guy being called a F*g is not gay and knows its used for something he is not, calling a trans guy the T word is using a slur for what he is.
Oh, apparently someone already pointed this out upthread. That's what I get for not reading :laugh: Anyway...
Quote from: Simon on July 07, 2013, 02:22:18 AM
Why not just admit that you realized your argument is weak. ::)
It is mine and I reclaimed it long ago...without your permission.
Go get back on topic.
Quote from: stavraki on July 07, 2013, 02:08:43 AM
are pictures (jpg) files of body building exercises allowed, on thread? I'd love to share how to do this with some pics.....
:)
Sure. As long as they're safe for work. ;)
Quote from: Fitter Admin on July 07, 2013, 02:29:25 AM
Sure. As long as they're safe for work. ;)
k - lemme know if any are inappropriate for other reasons too that I'm not seeing that you are -like 'discordant with forum ethos'...these are body pics and I'm very mindful that body's can be a sensitive topic.
Kind Regards :)
stav
First. When you see this pic!
1. he's been photoshopped to the *bleep* - the indentations are exaggerated, and Mr KenDoll would not look like that live. He's been 'beautified' muchly by the cameras, lights, oil, photoshopping and makeup artists....but.
2. Look at his waste, and note the muscle bulk at the top end, (deltoids) and how much extra 'width' across the shoulders that gives.....
3. I'll get pics of the exercises for this kind of shape, and dietary requirement and so on....
Beginners Body Building Program – Steps for Shape (http://mybodyhealth.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/fitness-215x300.jpg)
fixed link
1. Deltoid Work (see how he's standing up--do this exercise *leaning forwards* AS WELL
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRjbMVT1R8cXtOniMpoMwa_evuFpbgdZP-67D1u4lZYemncZMzb0A)
2. PEC WORK! See Mr KenDoll and his pectorals - they also add to the buking into a 'V'. You can also do *BENCH PRESS* for this one....
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPftUGUr1s_eHHpYnCHBfB9DBlvlTVjCsVC_j4FnRscegsZTGj-g)
3. And *This* one is the more deltoid work *he's pushing upwards*
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRw3o1_PqNGg04xruk05j3pBIjIto8nD17kyrdCf-Si7J0MryQ0NQ)
4. THIS ONE - is the most 'V-ing' of them all (don't forget to do pushups and *core* work alongside all these exercises....loosely "chest and shoulder work"
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSNTMc2bX1XFkxlEs2_ii32QIKdlPUyO_zmohuocqGh-7VWWBYOhw)
Out Lateral Pulldowns
and lots of situps and seated rowing to get abs like Mr KenDoll, but
about abs:
everyone already has them.....the key with abs (you don't actually need to do much work on them) is to strip fat to get your abs to show.......
Testosterone accelerates fat metabolism, majorly. Since going onto supps after losing my gonads, I'm on 'prime-of-life levels' (Testosterone drops over your life cycle) and the test-boost has meant that I'm stripping fat by doing nothing! It's a most excellent way to lose fat.
Remember though:
1. No more Coca Cola, sugar hits (okay, some chocolate once or twice a week--don't turn into a zealot)).
2. No more simple carb foods (brown, wholegrain breads, not white. Brown rice, not white. Sweet potatoe [yes sweet potatoe] not normal potatoe. Complex vegetable carbs.
3. Stay off alcohol. It's *fattening* and triggers *estrogen* production if you have too much.
4. Stay *off* diet sweeteners. They've found they trigger insulin release (fat deposition rate increase) even though it's not calorific. So, your pancreas starts releasing more insulin and you deposit more fat from what you eat.
5. EAT BREAKFAST. It kick start the metabolism--broom--your engines start burning earlier in the day.
6. A FULL NIGHT's sleep. Sleeplessness is associate with weight gain--cause you're sluggish during the day and don't burn as much calories.
7. Eat three good *balanced* meals. Lean meat. Stay away from processed meats. Rule of thumb "if you can't catch it, eat it and grow it--don't eat it". I.e. keep away from processed, packaged ffoods as much as you can.
And - *do* have about one half pint of milk or protein food *after* a workout, to prevent your body going into 'insulin resistance mode' (i.e. increasing insulin to resist starvation, by triggering diversion of incoming foods into *fat deposition* not muscle building. You build muscle when the body goes 'ah, yes--lots of food around--grow--grow--grow. Insulin resistance is 'starvation mode--store food).
And - rest at least one day in every three. Every other day is best. Your muscles need to grow. They grow *between* workouts. If you're not sore after a workout (day later) you are *stable* and *not* growing. Yoou will get to 'maintenance point' where muscles no longer hurt after a workout. If you want to grow them up the weight, about 2 to 5 lb and see what happens.
Get the form right :) and be kind to yur body
...and most of all--you can love your body, as your body is, and embrace the form you have. At the end of the day, the 'visuals' can be part of body-esteem, but remember that self-acceptance is simpler....I've been at my happiest when I was a student, with a tummy and long hair in my early thirties. I've also been incredibly happy with a buff bod. I've also been incredibly unhappy with a buff bod. That was when I was in my 20's.
Gym is not for everyone. Gym's for some people. Really, gym can get incredibly boring. But, if you build gym into your life as part of your daily life, okay, great.
Be kind to ur beautiful body - feed it good foods. Don't get mean on ur body. Use ur mind to be kind to urself...and if u do do gym, celebrate every gain. It's a journey, not a destination. Celebrate the direction, not the KenDoll.
Having said all that, for my MDL phalloplasty, having the health and fitness of an 18 year old (at my last assessment and I'm in my 40s) was comfort. I can go into surgery with good health, and hopefully that will assist me to get through without complications. Surgery is a big stress on the body....
Kind Regards
stav
Wow Stavraki, thanks for sharing all the pictures and information!
Quote from: LearnedHand on July 07, 2013, 07:40:34 AM
Wow Stavraki, thanks for sharing all the pictures and information!
anytime - love gym talk as well as tlc talk.....great to meet u :)
Quote from: aleon515 on July 05, 2013, 03:23:47 PM
I don't know if that's true. I am passing about 15% of the time and sure don't have that shape. Thing is I know guys who have been on T for years and years and still have big hips and so on. They pass 100% of the time. Your shape is one thing out of thousands of factors. Gendering is done subconsciously imo and based on lots of different things.
--Jay
^ This
Guys come in all shapes and sizes and certainly there's a large percentage of them who do not have the perfect V shape with broad shoulders. Actually I would even go so far as to say that the majority do not and it's the minority of men who have that "perfect bod".
I should have titled the thread "working towards a V shape to pass better?" or something so it was not implied that you had to have a V shape to pass
Or "Do you have/want a V shape?"
Quote from: spacerace on July 07, 2013, 02:12:35 PM
I should have titled the thread "working towards a V shape to pass better?" or something so it was not implied that you had to have a V shape to pass
Well, with, "One thing the author really harps on is the importance of the V shape to passing", it's kind of easy to think that's what was implied. You don't have to have the V shape to pass. If you want to try to get the V shape yourself, that's a different story.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 07, 2013, 02:17:57 PM
Or "Do you have/want a V shape?"
This would have been best.
I have 20/20 hindsight! ;D
Quote from: insideontheoutside on July 07, 2013, 02:24:39 PM
Well, with, "One thing the author really harps on is the importance of the V shape to passing", it's kind of easy to think that's what was implied. You don't have to have the V shape to pass. If you want to try to get the V shape yourself, that's a different story.
I read the article as saying that to be an "attractive" guy you need to have the V shape, but I might be wrong, I was tired and reading it half heartedly. I also don't think that the V shape is necessary to be "attractive", just to be what's stereotypically attractive.
I think having a V shape is pretty important to being able to pass, I've seen some pictures of trans men who would otherwise pass if it wasn't for the V shape wondering why they don't pass. Lets be honest, people generally see, and judge you, as a whole before seeing your facial features up close, unless you have a thick, dark beard or something.