This has been on my mind a few weeks decided to post it here and get everyones input.
It seems most people in the Trans community are very much into the hormones and body changes aspect of transitioning. I too was all caught up in the body changes at first and honestly still want this and that change to happen faster . With that said I decided to read a few books one by the wife of a trans woman. She was a feminist , her views made me think.
What I took from her words made me think . We all say we're born in the wrong gender and I have used the same line many times too. Made me think , does a female body, female minded woman come into this world with the mannerisms pre wired ? Is a females mannerisms taught ? How can you be sure ?
I was so caught up in the body changes for so long I personally overlooked what seems to be Atleast in my experience the one thing that matter most , do we give off the right vibe . My lacking in understanding these things has caused a couple of people to question me . If your born in the wrong body why do you have the mannerisms of a guy in a lot of things you do?
People say don't worry about filling a certain role and be yourself however when we were kids a parent spent years enforcing the role you were supposed to play. How can one override the wrong wiring? I can pass as a female pretty well appearance wise. Until I can properly show the gender I am inside ill never be able to have the confidence to be a woman . Has any other ladies experienced this?
I know for me that was always a very big deal for my owner. So I know to behave like a young lady was tought. God help you if you broke the rules
Owner ? Didnt Lincoln set the slaves free? See you seem to look at things from a fetish point of view . I try not let people see us as sexual objects of any kind. They already view us as sexual deviants . Not the direction I was trying to get people to go but yea :)
I agree with you 100% I often wander about mannerisms, gestures, the way I speak( not talking voice resonance or pitch or anything like that, talking about what I say or attitude what I say comes off), natural facial expressions not the ones I force myself to learn ect. I keep wandering if in that aspect if I would pass. I am over 6' tall and large feet ect so naturally some people would question me to begin with. I think if I can't pass these extra things it would be that much easier.
I have noticed several big differences in myself since starting transition. Most being paying more attention to posture, covering my mouth when i yawn or burp, trying to keep a burp quiet, saying excuse me after i burp instead of "Damn that felt good" and always remembering a saying my mother taught.me when i first came out to her, "women sit with there legs crossed, either at the knee or at the ankle, those that don't are seen as easy and get treated that way"
I do think some times mannerisms can.be a big give away but sometimes not as much as body movements or voice.
I think for me, some came naturally (my walk, for instance, has always had a bit of sashay due to my wider hips), some I never learned (being homeschooled, 90% of the time my companionship was, basically, my mother), and the rest I try to consciously practice. Kinda makes most male actions and habits a foreign experience for me. :)
A LOT of walking and presenting as feminine or masculine is completely dependent on social conditioning, and how they perceive themselves, and how that self-perception has formed social habits. Some of it is biology, but a lot of it isn't, and WILL change depending on how one sees themselves.
Guys grow up being taught that being confident and strong and dominant is a desirable trait. And when you're a guy, you therefore feel strong and confident, and your walk and gestures show it. Men tend to own the space that they are in, not shy about talking it up, and when they talk to others you can tell that they have a confidence that says that they deserve to be heard.
Women, on the other hand, grow up being taught that being "nice" is the most desirable trait. So when you're a girl, you feel like you're not as strong, like there are other stronger people out there, and that you need to be "nice" to others rather than assert yourself. And your walk and gestures also show it. Women are trained to not take up space... to shrink inwardly, and to not intrude on the space of others. And when they talk, they use a lot of diminutive non-confident language like "kind of," and don't make direct orders but rather ask others "do you want to?" using more inclusive language and gestures that asks others what they want to do, and reaches out to them, rather than standing at a distance and making direct orders. (That's what the feminine hand gestures really are... it's a subconscious desire to reach out and include the audience in what you're saying.)
And again, a lot of this is just self-perception, and social conditioning. It is something that will come with real-life experience over time. As HRT progresses, and muscles shrink, and you start to view yourself as female, a lot of that inward-shrinking behavior will come naturally, because you don't see yourself as that dominant male person anymore.
And no, it's not just biology. Some of it is, because hormones and brain development play a HUGE part in how one will eventually feels about themselves and how they will fit in socially. But basically that's all that the body gestures are, are outward signs of how one feels about themselves on the inside, and feels about where they fit on the social spectrum. And these body gestures can and do change depending on life circumstances and our ever-changing sense of self-perception. Often times abuse victims suddenly develop very timid and nervous body gestures, or some shy socially-awkward girl suddenly gets much more confident body gestures as she succeeds in the world and starts feeling better about herself. And so likewise, this is one of the most important things that comes with RLE... the female social conditioning. There's a reason why a lot of people say they feel like there's a total disconnect with their old lives once they've transitioned fully. Some of life's most basic habits change completely.
For me I think my mannerisms were probably the biggest hint that I was transexual. For a long time I didn't know I was female but I still considered myself a "girly boy." I walked, stood, etc. in a very feminine way. Sometimes it was on purpose, and sometimes it became second nature. When I caught myself doing anything very male like I tried to correct myself. It wasn't until a few years after that that I realized I was a girl. I don't think these mannerisms were something I was born with though, because I never considered myself "born in the wrong body." Watching myself and all of the other kids in school, I've realized that we only learn what we want to learn, and in a sense we sort of brainwash ourselves. So I would probably say something more like "grew up in the wrong body" instead. And even then that doesn't really say it quite right. I'm sure that I have at least some male habits, probably a result of being around my guy friends so much, but I also happen to know a lot of girls with male mannerisms and vice versa. Though since I began to recognize the fact that I'm female, I have started getting a little bolder in showing it, probably because now I eventually plan to transition whereas before I didn't know it was a possibility...
I am sure that I am comfortable with using either "taught" or (especially) "brain-washed" to describe the way people acquire their mannerisms. This may be partially due to having grown up the the 70s in a liberal (small 'l') house with three sister where none of use were told whether something was gender specific or not by our parent.
Aside from two or three isolated incidents when I was growing up where it was quite emphatically pointed out that the way I was behaving was NOT the way boys behaved (all very innocent (if somewhat merciless) child-to-child enforcement) I am not aware of anyone ever 'teaching' or 'brain-washing' me as to how to behave. I think most of it was absorbed in a semi-conscious way whereby things were just what you did to fit in.
So...I am guessing (and given I have only been full-time for 4 months I am DEFINITELY guessing) that over time you absorb in a similarly semi-conscious way the mannerisms appropriate to your correct gender. At least I hope this is the case because it means I can stop thinking so damn hard about what I should be doing and just get on with doing it.
Rosie
I never intentionally tried to change any mannerisms, I may have avoided doing certain things that may look more manly...like spitting...wow that is really disgusting, how and why did I ever do that before!! For the most part all my mannerisms just developed. I don't even try to walk feminine, but I know I do cause I have been told.
Gestures are the one thing that everyone said was noticeable before I even came out...and I was not fulltime yet either. I was like...really???
I have had men at work mock (jokingly) how I stand sometimes......but the biggest thing people notice now and pre transition is how I talk with my hands!! I never even knew I do this....I had another coworker (man) who was watching me talk to someone down an aisle...later he came up to me waving his hand all around imitating me...I said "oh shush, I don't do that" he just smiled and laughed. I really don't notice myself doing this....I will say though before transitioning I never was aware I wasn't either.
The one thing I do notice is that I feel weird with just my hands down...if talking with someone I will either hold them together...maybe fooling with my ring or I may put them on my hips...I am very conscious of my arms and hand now if I am to take a pic...it seems I don't know what to do with them.
Did I not have arms and hands when I was a man?? :)
Oh I wanted to add...I had absolutely ZERO!! feminine mannerisms pre transition...I avoided anyone suspecting anything!! I wasn't overly masculine...kind of hard when I was a wimp but I definitely wasn't "gay" acting. I don't mean that negatively either!!
Quote from: misschievous on July 20, 2013, 10:17:50 AM
I agree with you 100% I often wander about mannerisms, gestures, the way I speak( not talking voice resonance or pitch or anything like that, talking about what I say or attitude what I say comes off), natural facial expressions not the ones I force myself to learn ect. I keep wandering if in that aspect if I would pass. I am over 6' tall and large feet ect so naturally some people would question me to begin with. I think if I can't pass these extra things it would be that much easier.
Yeah he was I spent alot of time with him and he ended up being nice to me sometimes if I was obedient and as you know I'm very good at obeying. It was when I was really little and only for a little bit each day for like four years. I use that word cuz he used it but no I wasn't like his slave or stayed with him 24/7. My mom wouldn't allow that much. But he is the reason I know how to behave and be proper. Without him I could have developed alot of male traits. Any who I remember him some and my mom still reminds me from time to time :)
Very thoughtful guys! Personally my saving grace with genetic females is they have always said I have many female traits that I show when I'm not trying to . So made me think maybe strangers use the same signals to decide if they are gonna give you a pass or not?
I feel that gender-associated mannerisms, inasmuch as they are culturally created, just end up somehow or other impressed in you, especially the younger you transition, or the more association with the same sex, matching your neurological one.
Socialisation is really all association with others of the same mind, as well as adopting that particular identity anyways! I have to say that as a child, most of my friends in elementary and high school, if not all, were female, so my mannerisms were already feminine (which did look awkward considering my old self!). So when I transitioned myself to the woman I am now, it wasn't a surprise at all to some of my friends!
I from a young age was coaxed to be as male as possible . I have always been very good at masking my feelings and emotions to that of what a person wanted to see. Tearing the walls down has made it hard for me to introduce the raw (real me) to my friends and family including the ones I havnt told. I know I'm changing forthw best. It's just I hoped that the hormones and changes would be the hardest part. Mentally I'm fine , the hair and body doesn't bother people no more.
I used to be comterable hiding as a male . Something like a quiet whisper started about a year in. No matter how much the part I look female everyone calls me by the male prefixes even as a girl . I started struggling harder putting together the loose ends which brought me to the question I presented . I'm finally ready to sit back and relaxe and learn from my gfs instead of force it. We really are a third gender . In my opinion the best one hehe !
A lot of research has been done on this area. Generally, you represent the traits of the gendered parent you identify as 'same' as you. You learn the ways that they move, act, and speak. For TS, we just take after the correctly gendered parent for our internal representation.
Or: The reason we all become our mothers.