What happened to me?
Back in February my therapist was all, "You're doing great!" And I felt great. Frustrated at work, but, it's work. Now...
I don't think my take on the Real Life Experience taught me much for the long haul. For the short, yeah, I did learn I could function being seen as a trans woman in my day to day life. That was still very useful knowledge. And as rough as things are now, had I not transitioned, as I've mentioned elsewhere I'm pretty sure I'd be in a bottle, angry and likely unemployed due to the prior two items.
What bugs me almost as much as the intentional misgenderings I get are all the stares. Today, I was driving home and my cat had an accident in the car (#2) so I had to stop at a pet store in the Northwoods to get a new carrier. As I'm moving through the aisles there's this girl just staring at me. I turn a corner, she turns the corner and resumes staring. More stares another time while going out for coffee with a friend. While giving speeches at work, through the glass into the office work area I can see more stares coming at me from my co-workers. The building our speech club meets in is like the mean girls building for me. Stares in the TSA line at the airport by the public (TSA was cool). Stares while shopping for new clothes.
Argh!
If it wasn't for the misgenderings I could tell myself, "Maybe they think I'm attractive." But because of the misgenderings... I can't even fool myself. This is my life. This is what I've gotten myself into. I don't get told I'm going to Hell or called names, at least lately. But these stares....
Maybe I got too used to being invisible. As a guy I was a nobody, a person of great non-interest. That was my life for 34 years. Now, I'm a "What the heck is that?!?" or at least that's how I'm made to feel. I carry myself with confidence. Walk straighter and taller than I did as a guy and everything. I own the fact I'm a 5'10" (6' in heels) blond woman. Still, I must also admit I'm so worn out over the insurance nightmare my work dumped on me without warning that I'm lacking the strength to deal with all this as well as I'd like.
I'm in a long distance relationship. I get stared at everywhere I go thanks to transition. I have a job where the work is wonderful but the policies are so discriminatory and expensive for me to deal with I have to leave. This is getting so old! It's like every wish I had has been perverted and twisted so I have what I want but in a way I so don't want it.
I don't know all what I've done. I don't want to detransition. I think about it but then I pop my Spiro and E like nothing is wrong. I love my new soft skin. Love my growing boobs. Love expressing myself naturally. Love indulging in the feminine. Love being out going. Love being able to cry. Adore my eyes and how much better they pick up color. Still, I have rough spots in all the big areas of my life. I really need one of them to give me a good bounce and stabilize for the better.
Whether or not it is deluding myself, but when they stare I just think they think they are looking at a model.
You are an intelligent beautiful woman and the light at the end of the tunnel is not a train its your new wonderful life.Keep moving forward you WILL reach your goal. I think you looked awesome in your white skirt btw.
Do people really stare that much. That is so horrible. Especially from your co-workers. Maybe if you feel like you aren't passing well enough, you could get save up for FFS and move away. I know I myself plan on going completely stealth by 2016. That's what gets me by on the bad days: the knowledge that in due time I will no longer be trans, I will be a woman. It brings me such sweet joy and it is prolly the best feeling I have ever felt and certainly the happiest I have been about my future.
Still, I can't believe people stare that much. I actually think it is my mannerisms that help me pass more then my face. But I got sir'd the other day, I was presenting male so I guess that is expected, and then I looked at him and he apologized and called me ma'am. But still I think when I started passing it was my mannerisms more then anything else. That is what my BF (for now) says: that he wasn't sure at first but when he saw How I moved he thought I had to be a woman. I think mannerisms are underrated. At work, you really can't do much about it. Maybe you should play it down for now. You present pretty femme. Maybe a more andro presentation just to get past this rough patch. I prolly advocate androgynous style to much. Sorry. I just think it's hawt.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 21, 2013, 11:18:59 PM
Still, I can't believe people stare that much.
I can believe it, but not with her. It happens to me now because I look pretty androgynous, only wear androgynous clothing, and have the moobs thing going, which kinda makes people think oh that's a woman. Then I open my mouth and out bellows a really deep voice and they get a stunned look on their face.
That used to bother me a lot - but anymore not hardly at all. My take is that some people are always going to stare regardless of how good I look or how good my mannerisms are. I can't change it, so I for all intents and purposes don't care any longer. I'm not the first person to transition, I won't be the last, and if somebody finds that so utterly fascinating that they need to stare - well then good for them. I've more important things to worry about such as not dropping any food on my blouse, finding that perfect outfit, or interacting with any companions I may be out with (the people that I *do* care what they think).
Don't get me wrong, I wish I blended in so well that nobody gave me a second glance - unless of course it was as Ms. OBrien said - that they thought I was a model. :) But since that likely will never be the case, I go with what's above. :)
*Ms. OBrien - my apologies for the typo in my original post.
Most of the stares I get are at my chest....but those who look at my face for more than 1/2 second or so get my standard "Hi!" (in as close to a non-male tone as I can currently manage) and a smile, with a twinkle in my eyes.
I try to put them at ease...if it doesn't, OH WELL it's on them, not me.
^-^
The way I see it this comes down to empathy and responsibility more than anything else. This is a hard fact or simple truth that I feel anyone who is transitioning or out as trans needs to accept and embrace.
It doesn't matter who you are, what size you are, where you are, or how you present yourself, you're going to come across other people in society who just don't have enough empathy or a sense of social responsibility.
This is so not your problem.
This is not about passing. If you think it is let me get you a juice, sing you a lullaby and snuggle you up in your blanket of social privilege and illusions of social problems caused by the victims. Passing means conforming to whatever social standards are there influenced by cultural beliefs and buying into the same beliefs of social privilege.
I'm sorry but neither cisgendered men nor women are overly concerned by how well they pass to others, they just are. I don't see why it has to be any different just because someone is trans.
This is a social issue. It's evidence of just how much distance is left for society as a whole to go to embrace diversity.
It's hard when so many people willingly buy into all the profiling and stereotyping that goes on with the social programming and oppression from so many authority figures (government, religion and media). But the fact remains the same that nobody can get control of your mind and thinking unless you allow them to.
The stares, just like the pointing, the comments, the backhanded compliments and so on is just as much part of our reality as it is for people of a different ethnic background or skin colour, for the disabled, for the gays, and for anyone who is different and has the audacity (read courage) to stand out from the crowd just for being themselves.
Yes it's draining to constantly have to deal with it, to allow for it, and at times it can be upsetting and depressing. It can also be discouraging if you want to see it that way.
I don't. Nobody gets to control my mind but me. If people can cling to their illusions, assumptions and half-baked notions of who I am based on my appearance or lifestyle, then be sure I can do the same thing to them.
It's taken me some time and a fair amount of practice but I'm not bothered by the stares, the comments, the s->-bleeped-<-s, the pointing, and the prejudice.
In fact I'm cool with it, because it validates me just as much as the people who go out of their way to show their support. It's what makes me stronger and even more determined to continue being out as trans, to continue transitioning, and to continue living my life on my terms and not on terms imposed on me by the rest of society.
You see I'm out and transitioning for me, for my own personal reasons, so that I can function adequately out there in the real world and in society as the person I truly am. I didn't sign any agreement with anyone to be eye candy for other people. I didn't sign any agreement or agree to conform to any standard of femininity and no different from any woman out there I'm female by my own definition.
This is how it is. You either take it or leave it, I'm not bothered. I'm sorry if my being trans makes you feel uncomfortable or upsets you, but it's really not my problem and not my responsibility.
My suggestion is not to let it get to you, not to let it diminish you, or affect the quality of your life because if you do you're taking on the responsibility that in my opinion rests quite firmly on their shoulders, not your's.
If I may can I put a different perspective on this.
I know and I totally appreciate that I'm not always regarded as the 'normal' trans*woman. But I still live my life and I still interact all the time with people.
I decided I would enjoy being looked at and stared at. I decided that I am happy being a focal point. After all every movie star, rock star whatever s are ALWAYS being stared at.
I wear it with pride and I use it to feed my (as you all know) over inflated ego.
I have nothing to hide, be ashamed of or to be excuse for. If people want to stare at me: Sisters let them drool!
I realised very early in transition that stealth was impossible for me, I realised my voice was essentially unchangeable and male sounding, my work circumstance was also totally impossible for me to be stealth.
So I made the conscious decision not to get upset. I decided I would feed off those stares to be even more confident.
Somehow it has worked for me.
I think Pink said it very well:
"I'm still a rock star
I got my rock moves
And I don't need you"
Cindy
Hugs, Misato. I know EXACTLY what your going through. I get stared at all the time.
My self talk helps:
* The number of people that stare at me is still dwarfed by the number of people that clearly don't notice. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say I'm more than 90% passable. Seen that way, it feels good.
* People stare at women. I'm unusual for a lot of reasons. I'm taller than most women. Nothing I can do. I'm wearing a wig. Nothing I can do about that either. I'm dressed in such a way to cover up my neck and chest. Unusual, but necessary. People are going to notice me. Nothing I can do.
* Some of them are clocking me. Everytime I get clocked, I am showing the world what transgender really looks like - intelligent, competent, and proud. That makes it just a little bit easier for the next girl trying to transform her male body.
* I'm a celebrity of sorts, someone worthy of attention. I don't have to be satisfied with blending in with the crowd.
What have you done to yourself? Misato, it's called life. Life was meant to be an adventure, a roller coaster ride. If it isn't, you haven't really lived. Used to be a commercial for the armed forces "If your life were a book, would anyone want to read it?" Everyone who stares at you wants to read your book. Because for 9 out of 10 of them, their life is way less exciting than yours.
I really hope this helps. Good luck.
Quote from: StellaB on July 22, 2013, 01:58:34 AM
This is how it is. You either take it or leave it, I'm not bothered. I'm sorry if my being trans makes you feel uncomfortable or upsets you, but it's really not my problem and not my responsibility.
Then you needent have replied to my post.
I get your points Suzi. I try to be an ambassador, fully cognizant that I may be the only visible trans person many of my gawkers ever meet. The celebrity line too, I think somewhere here I have a post saying, "wanna know what it's like to be a celebrity? Be trans!"
It's the sum of everything that's got me down. The lack of support at my job how their policies make this whole thing harder and more expensive than it needs to be. My SO being several hundred miles away. Sick cat for over a year. The intentional misgenderings. I need a good bounce, something to go mostly right.
And I did want to post originally so people coming up behind me might learn what could happen.
I'm sorry that it's been so rough. I haven't experienced the stares, but I haven't tried to really pass yet. I'm afraid of the reactions once I do. I think it's human for us to fear how other people may perceive us. Humans are a social animal. We want the approval of others and seek positive interactions with our peers. It's nice to be strong enough to say you don't care, but many of us do. Misasto, I'm sure you will blend in time. I have seen you make progress in quick periods that I have no doubt that you will find a way to bounce back into a good spot.
Quick question, is there something you feel gives you away? If there is, what do you think you could do to improve it or lessen being detected? You would be surprised how the smallest things can make a radical change.
Quote from: learningtolive on July 22, 2013, 11:10:08 AM
Quick question, is there something you feel gives you away? If there is, what do you think you could do to improve it or lessen being detected? You would be surprised how the smallest things can make a radical change.
I have a huge head and pretty wide shoulders. Hips are tiny too but i'm hoping the grace of fat will take care of that. ;)
Quote from: Misato on July 22, 2013, 11:44:54 AM
I have a huge head and pretty wide shoulders. Hips are tiny too but i'm hoping the grace of fat will take care of that. ;)
From what I have seen, I don't think you have a huge head or big shoulders. Still, you can always dress in a way that covers your shoulders or makes them less noticeable. I know plenty of cis girls who cover their shoulders and arms for the same reasons. It's not a trans thing. Nor is the size of your head. These things wouldn't really make you stand out to others. Some things may, like a deep voice or a beard, but those things aren't too problematic.
I also want to make clear I don't regret transition. I know it was the right thing to do. Albeit more difficult than I thought it would be when I first went full time. I'm just having a hard go in a great many spots in my life and I'm worn out.
I work on what I can LTL. Voice isn't perfect but I think improving. Beard has largely been taken care of. I love how good the skin on my face feels.
Quote from: Misato on July 22, 2013, 10:46:39 AM
Then you needent have replied to my post.
Erm, you might want to go back and reread that part you quoted, because it was definitely not addressed to you or anyone directly but rhetorically towards the people who stare or make the negative comments.
Quote from: Misato on July 22, 2013, 11:55:12 AM
I also want to make clear I don't regret transition. I know it was the right thing to do. Albeit more difficult than I thought it would be when I first went full time. I'm just having a hard go in a great many spots in my life and I'm worn out.
I work on what I can LTL. Voice isn't perfect but I think improving. Beard has largely been taken care of. I love how good the skin on my face feels.
That's good. I bring up things that you can change because that has helped me cope with my fears. I have been panicking about passing because I need to be able to blend in time. And my family always takes potshots at me to tell me how I will never blend and will always be viewed as a male by society. This hurts and worries me because I can't live as an unpassable transwoman. Some are able to do that, and I admire those who can, but it isn't for me. My therapist brought up that I need to worry about what I can change and focus on that. In reality it's more healthy for us to ignore the things we are stuck with and focus on the things we can improve. In my times of struggle, I take a lot of hope in knowing that there is a lot of things that I can do to better my appearance and feminize myself. Sure, things can't be perfect, but I need to live with that. However, there are things I can do to make myself blend and feel better about myself. It takes time, but I will get there.
The reason I share this is becuase I'm sure focusing on those things will make you feel better as well. Don't worry about the things that are beyond your control. There are things that you can do that will make you feel better about yourself and allow you to exude a feminine presence that no one would dare misgender you. It might take some more work, time and practice, but you will get there.
I was in Florida a few years back on vacation and I went to the Post Office to ship a new fishing rod home. Behind the counter was a girl in transition who absolutely did not physically pass. They made her wear a man's uniform and her badge had an old picture on it with her old male name. It was not good at all. I got to the counter and she smiled, asked how she could help and proceeded to be the nicest postal person I have ever encountered. That smile positively affected everyone else in line, not only me. We got done and as I left, I felt privileged to have met such a wonderful girl. No doubt about her being a girl either, regardless of how she looked.
Suggestions: First make sure they are not staring because of something else that is wrong, like a big blob of ketchup on your blouse. Then, smile and say "Hi". Smiles are wonderful and disarming things.
Hope you don't mind me asking, but... do they stare because they know about your transition or do they sense it? Because if it's the latter and judging from your avatar, it would be very discouraging seeing that you don't pass.
But what you experience is my biggest fear. I'd rather stay male than not achieving any passing at all. I don't think I'd be happy living as female but getting reminded all the time that I'm not.
Nevertheless I'm confident that you will achieve passing as your avatar indicates that. And if it's not the other peaople knowing about your transition what get's them staring that will fade eventually. Best wishes!
Quote from: JLT1 on July 22, 2013, 12:20:36 PM
Suggestions: First make sure they are not staring because of something else that is wrong, like a big blob of ketchup on your blouse. Then, smile and say "Hi". Smiles are wonderful and disarming things.
I think this is going to be useful with the girls who give me grief from afar at work. So high school!
Quote from: PiaBianca on July 22, 2013, 01:21:11 PM
Hope you don't mind me asking, but... do they stare because they know about your transition or do they sense it? Because if it's the latter and judging from your avatar, it would be very discouraging seeing that you don't pass.
But what you experience is my biggest fear. I'd rather stay male than not achieving any passing at all. I don't think I'd be happy living as female but getting reminded all the time that I'm not.
Nevertheless I'm confident that you will achieve passing as your avatar indicates that. And if it's not the other peaople knowing about your transition what get's them staring that will fade eventually. Best wishes!
The intentional misgenderings do tell me I don't pass. Even though I don't I'd still have transitioned.
I must be a little nutty. Big post about fretting over people staring at me and where am I now? Mall of America.
Does leave me wondering why I didn't go to a good mall.....
You have to give yourself some time too. Heck I was fulltime for a couple years before I stopped getting the stares and hearing little comments about how I must be going from one to the other amongst people nearby. Nowadays if I get stared at, its usually for talking to inanimate objects or doing something silly as I often do to amuse myself.
Quote from: jrd on July 22, 2013, 05:41:16 PM
You have to give yourself some time too. Heck I was fulltime for a couple years before I stopped getting the stares and hearing little comments about how I must be going from one to the other amongst people nearby. Nowadays if I get stared at, its usually for talking to inanimate objects or doing something silly as I often do to amuse myself.
Ha! :). I'm prone to playing air-guitar/air-turntables/air-etc... myself.
And I need to focus on the fact I'm offered cisgender privilege far more often than not. Just used a women's changing room, no problem. New top and dress. Ahhhhhh. Feel better. On sale! Feel much better!
Oh y'all, save for one, helped me feel better too. And my therapist.
Shopping is my therapy too, ...although my Therapist for some reason refers to is as OCD (Optimizing Clothing Desire). I'm like "..no duh!! ..Ya Think!?! ..I just call it shopping!" :)
Glad your feeling better :)
Quote from: Misato on July 22, 2013, 06:12:53 PM
Oh y'all, save for one, helped me feel better too. And my therapist.
Repeated again. What was written previous wasn't addressed to you or anyone else. But hey, no problem. Your thread.
I'll keep clear in future.
Quote from: StellaB on July 22, 2013, 06:54:57 PM
Repeated again. What was written previous wasn't addressed to you or anyone else. But hey, no problem. Your thread.
I'll keep clear in future.
I went back again. Now not on my phone so I have more screen space. I see your intent better now (and your last post). Given my vunerable/mopey state I think I was prone to take "you's" personally.
My second call out was out of line. I apologize.
Tried sending you a personal apology Stella, but it says you can't get PMs.
And now I'm feeling incredibly foolish. Heck, my first was out of line.
Quote from: Misato on July 22, 2013, 05:34:46 PM
The intentional misgenderings do tell me I don't pass. Even though I don't I'd still have transitioned.
OK, this one thing you said is a really big thing and really frames the way you see your situation. INTENTIONAL misgenderings do NOT mean that you don't pass. It just means you work with some real ->-bleeped-<-s.
Hang in there, Jess
Hopefully the misunderstanding has been cleared up.
Quote from: JessicaH on July 22, 2013, 08:20:32 PM
OK, this one thing you said is a really big thing and really frames the way you see your situation. INTENTIONAL misgenderings do NOT mean that you don't pass. It just means you work with some real ->-bleeped-<-s.
Hang in there, Jess
Whoops, I should clarify. The common thread has been sub sandwich shops for the mis-genderings. Always the person making my sub. In neither case had I visited the shop with any frequency.
Geez, twice I get misgendered and I get all bent out of shape. I still think all the tumult since March is gotten to me. I have these problems I can't solve and I just obsess about them.
Quote from: Jamie D on July 22, 2013, 08:22:21 PM
Hopefully the misunderstanding has been cleared up.
This problem included.
When I first wrote "What happened to me?" I think I meant things like, I'm on a support forum, why on Earth would my mind leap to think I'm being attacked? Back when I first went full time I was so happy and optimistic. Life felt good. Now I'm buried in a sea of chronic problems and I'm letting these issues get to me in a way that's corrupting who I want to be. Who I undertook all this to become! I gotta put the breaks on it. I gotta turn this around, put er' in reverse. I've been too tempted of late to run away, to hide myself in my apartment for a time. Maybe on that front it's good I went to the Mall. Even if I do like Southdale more.
I gotta deal with this negativity and this snarky-ness that's found me again. Therapist had some good advice, as did
everyone on this thread. I don't want to put myself in the doghouse with anyone else.
Quote from: Misato on July 22, 2013, 07:18:11 PM
I went back again. Now not on my phone so I have more screen space. I see your intent better now (and your last post). Given my vunerable/mopey state I think I was prone to take "you's" personally.
My second call out was out of line. I apologize.
It's not a problem.. I've done the same thing so many times myself, we all make mistakes so please don't feel bad about it. The most important thing is that you're feeling better after whoever it was had you on the spot.
Quote from: StellaB on July 22, 2013, 09:32:15 PM
It's not a problem.. I've done the same thing so many times myself, we all make mistakes so please don't feel bad about it. The most important thing is that you're feeling better after whoever it was had you on the spot.
:) Seeing your reply is going to help me sleep A LOT better.
Quote from: Misato on July 22, 2013, 05:34:46 PMThe intentional misgenderings do tell me I don't pass. Even though I don't I'd still have transitioned.
I'm a little late here, but I just wanted to relate a recent experience of mine; maybe it will be of some help. But first, I must say that, based on your avatar, you not only pass but are beautiful! If people stare, then perhaps it's because you have a very striking, distinctive (but not unpleasant) appearance. As for the "intentional misgenderings," people have their own issues, and perhaps they were just in a bad mood and wanted to take it out on you.
A couple of weeks ago, I was getting out of my car in a crowded retail parking lot when two guys in a car stopped near me. One of them called out to me, "Excuse me, we couldn't help but notice your bumper..."
You see, the front bumper on my car is messed-up, and I don't have the money to fix it. Over the past couple of years, I have been approached several times by random strangers offering to repair the damage on-the-spot for a far lower price than a body shop. I don't know about you, but it sounds really sketchy to me. That day, I was in a hurry and annoyed that these guys were stopping me to propose an impromptu repair job. So before they could even finish asking for my business, I turned my back to them and shouted, with audible irritation, "OH NO THANK YOU I DON'T NEED IT!"
A few things need to be said at this point. First of all, I live in a city where the people are generally open-minded and respectful/friendly toward LBGT people (and others who are out-of-the-ordinary). Second, when I present as female, I hardly make an effort to use a feminine voice. (It's not something that I prefer, but I have personal reasons for not changing my voice.) Third, I was wearing a cute dress and full, girly make-up at the time. In fact, it was this exact outfit (minus hat, sunglasses, and lollipop): http://distilleryimage9.ak.instagram.com/29f9a58ce69911e2a9ff22000aaa0374_7.jpg (http://distilleryimage9.ak.instagram.com/29f9a58ce69911e2a9ff22000aaa0374_7.jpg)
I have a post in the "You look fabulous" thread that shows my face in "girl mode": https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,138923.msg1182620.html#msg1182620 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,138923.msg1182620.html#msg1182620)
Even though I favor somewhat bold fashions as a girl, I don't get stares and don't feel like I have trouble passing. So I was startled and crestfallen when the guy said, while my back was turned, "OK, have a nice day,
SIR!" It just felt like an insult. But I've managed to console myself by keeping in mind that some people are just jerks. There's nothing wrong with me or how I look or my presentation. The problem is theirs, not mine. I think that this was what Stella was trying to say.
I know that you're under a lot of stress, but please hang in there because, by all appearances, you're still doing just fine! :)
Quote from: Silvermist on July 22, 2013, 10:08:06 PM
I'm a little late here, but I just wanted to relate a recent experience of mine; maybe it will be of some help. But first, I must say that, based on your avatar, you not only pass but are beautiful! If people stare, then perhaps it's because you have a very striking, distinctive (but not unpleasant) appearance. As for the "intentional misgenderings," people have their own issues, and perhaps they were just in a bad mood and wanted to take it out on you.
Distinctive! I like it! Really I do. Even though I'm clockable, I do feel I still look good. Feel pretty and all that, you know? I still put my time in every morning to put myself together. Kinda scaled back on weekends, but effort all the same.
Quote from: StellaB on July 22, 2013, 01:58:34 AM
The way I see it this comes down to empathy and responsibility more than anything else. This is a hard fact or simple truth that I feel anyone who is transitioning or out as trans needs to accept and embrace.
It doesn't matter who you are, what size you are, where you are, or how you present yourself, you're going to come across other people in society who just don't have enough empathy or a sense of social responsibility.
This is so not your problem.
This is not about passing.
I'm sorry but neither cisgendered men nor women are overly concerned by how well they pass to others, they just are. I don't see why it has to be any different just because someone is trans.
Quote from: StellaB on July 22, 2013, 01:58:34 AM
You see I'm out and transitioning for me, for my own personal reasons, so that I can function adequately out there in the real world and in society as the person I truly am. I didn't sign any agreement with anyone to be eye candy for other people.
I think there is a generational gap at play here. I don't speak for everyone but for a lot of the 30s and under it is about passing and it isn't as political as you are making it out to be. It really is quite simple: most of us want to pass and to just blend in and concentrate on other things like love and work and relationships, not being trans. People with long-term medical conditions don't get political about their issues and the way I see it neither should we. For me, this is a medical condition. And all I want is to be normal and to blend in and be accepted. I'm actually quite surprised at how political being trans is sometimes. I get that we need more rights and acceptance but you are kind of making it look like more of a lifestyle choice by emphasizing how we interact in the world and making it so philosophical.
Also, plenty if not most, cis women and men worry about looking too manish or too girlish. I can remember very specific instances of girls getting upset because someone said they look like or are build like a man. It certainly is a worry. And if a girl is overly manly, she def worries about it. It has nothing to do with being cis. I mean look at how hard some guys work out. Especially smaller guys. it is because they don't want to appear femme.
I just think there is nothing wrong with just wanting to blend in and not be out as trans. Lobbying for rights is one thing but being an activist? I don't get it. I think it makes out condition more than it has to be. I'm not saying this applies to you but I know some people get upset with trans women like myself who may have some passing privilege because I don't want to be known as trans and refuse to carry the banner. it's like I am supposed to give up my life to make things easier for the next generation or something. But what about my life? Can't I live it the way I want without having to be an activist? I want to be known as a great writer and compassionate woman. Not a trans woman. Just a woman.
I think it's great that you want to be an activist and get more rights but at the same time part of me feels like I wish some trans women would stop making so much noise.
Put it this way. There was an article in the Philadelphia Gay News about young trans sex workers. It was a great article and something that needed to be said. And I was so happy some body finally wrote about the horrors that some trans women have to do to survive. I know some of these women. They need to have a voice. But yet the whole comment section was drowned out by a bunch of trans activists because the writer said something about the Michgan Womyn's Festival and it wasn't even exclusionary. She just said be a woman there and don't make it all about being trans.
And so this great article which was really empathetic was hijacked and destroyed by trans activists.
My point is it just seems like Paige wanted to vent and that she just wants to pass and be part of the world and be known for her work not her medical condition. (Correct me if I read you wrong Paige.) I guess I just don't understand the political part of being trans.
Sorry for the tangent Paige. And please don't be offended Stella mainly what I am saying is that sometimes it is really simple and is just about passing and nothing more.
Quote from: Silvermist on July 22, 2013, 10:08:06 PM
I'm a little late here, but I just wanted to relate a recent experience of mine; maybe it will be of some help. But first, I must say that, based on your avatar, you not only pass but are beautiful! If people stare, then perhaps it's because you have a very striking, distinctive (but not unpleasant) appearance.
Quote from: Silvermist on July 22, 2013, 10:08:06 PM
I know that you're under a lot of stress, but please hang in there because, by all appearances, you're still doing just fine! :)
That's exactly what I was trying to say. You just seem to find much better words for it!
Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 23, 2013, 02:03:22 AM
Also, plenty if not most, cis women and men worry about looking too manish or too girlish. I can remember very specific instances of girls getting upset because someone said they look like or are build like a man. It certainly is a worry. And if a girl is overly manly, she def worries about it. It has nothing to do with being cis. I mean look at how hard some guys work out. Especially smaller guys. it is because they don't want to appear femme.
I'm unsure if I'm a good example but that's exactly as I felt my whole life. I was worrying all the time. I even refused unisex deodorant or shower gel. It always had to be the distinctively manly ones. But maybe that was just overcompensationing my feelings. Whatever.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 23, 2013, 02:03:22 AM
I think there is a generational gap at play here. I don't speak for everyone but for a lot of the 30s and under it is about passing and it isn't as political as you are making it out to be. It really is quite simple: most of us want to pass and to just blend in and concentrate on other things like love and work and relationships, not being trans. People with long-term medical conditions don't get political about their issues and the way I see it neither should we. For me, this is a medical condition. And all I want is to be normal and to blend in and be accepted. I'm actually quite surprised at how political being trans is sometimes. I get that we need more rights and acceptance but you are kind of making it look like more of a lifestyle choice by emphasizing how we interact in the world and making it so philosophical.
Also, plenty if not most, cis women and men worry about looking too manish or too girlish. I can remember very specific instances of girls getting upset because someone said they look like or are build like a man. It certainly is a worry. And if a girl is overly manly, she def worries about it. It has nothing to do with being cis. I mean look at how hard some guys work out. Especially smaller guys. it is because they don't want to appear femme.
I just think there is nothing wrong with just wanting to blend in and not be out as trans. Lobbying for rights is one thing but being an activist? I don't get it. I think it makes out condition more than it has to be. I'm not saying this applies to you but I know some people get upset with trans women like myself who may have some passing privilege because I don't want to be known as trans and refuse to carry the banner. it's like I am supposed to give up my life to make things easier for the next generation or something. But what about my life? Can't I live it the way I want without having to be an activist? I want to be known as a great writer and compassionate woman. Not a trans woman. Just a woman.
I think it's great that you want to be an activist and get more rights but at the same time part of me feels like I wish some trans women would stop making so much noise.
Put it this way. There was an article in the Philadelphia Gay News about young trans sex workers. It was a great article and something that needed to be said. And I was so happy some body finally wrote about the horrors that some trans women have to do to survive. I know some of these women. They need to have a voice. But yet the whole comment section was drowned out by a bunch of trans activists because the writer said something about the Michgan Womyn's Festival and it wasn't even exclusionary. She just said be a woman there and don't make it all about being trans.
And so this great article which was really empathetic was hijacked and destroyed by trans activists.
My point is it just seems like Paige wanted to vent and that she just wants to pass and be part of the world and be known for her work not her medical condition. (Correct me if I read you wrong Paige.) I guess I just don't understand the political part of being trans.
Sorry for the tangent Paige. And please don't be offended Stella mainly what I am saying is that sometimes it is really simple and is just about passing and nothing more.
I agree and disagree. I don't think any of us should feel we have to be open or should be denied the option of stealth. Passing is important to some of us and that doesn't make us weak or lesser than anyone else in the trans community. I'm with you there.
On the other hand, I do think some of us aren't political or active enough. How many transwomen really get involved in trying to pass anti-discrimination laws? Some do, but I think there are many who just stand aside. I don't think it's right for us to ignore the plight of others. Even if you pass and don't need to worry about such laws, your trans-sisters may very well have to. I think it is only right to stand up and fight. That doesn't mean you have to expose yourself and come out of the closet. It just means being vocal about things that are important. So it's okay to be political. It's just not every aspect of life and daily existence should be a political struggle.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 23, 2013, 02:03:22 AM
My point is it just seems like Paige wanted to vent and that she just wants to pass and be part of the world and be known for her work not her medical condition. (Correct me if I read you wrong Paige.) I guess I just don't understand the political part of being trans.
I do want to pass, more than I thought I would when I started out.
I try to do activist things too. After that last being intentionally misgendered I gave a speech at my speech club about compassion, using the misgendering as my opening hook. Went over well.
What I long for is like a girls night out. Indeed, just to be seen as one of the girls. I'm told today one of my bosses got up during I meeting I wasn't at and said, "Paige he's working on I mean she's working on..." I'm tired of being forced into that damn male box. The boss who spoke of me today never even knew me as a guy. *mope*
Quote from: Misato on July 23, 2013, 07:16:23 PM
I do want to pass, more than I thought I would when I started out.
I try to do activist things too. After that last being intentionally misgendered I gave a speech at my speech club about compassion, using the misgendering as my opening hook. Went over well.
What I long for is like a girls night out. Indeed, just to be seen as one of the girls. I'm told today one of my bosses got up during I meeting I wasn't at and said, "Paige he's working on I mean she's working on..." I'm tired of being forced into that damn male box. The boss who spoke of me today never even knew me as a guy. *mope*
I know this may sound bad but if you want to pass as much as possible you might want to blend in ( unless you live in a more liberal area/ state like California ) . The more LBGTQ activist stuff your involved in the more you stand out as something different. Just from what I have always herd from many others that's the case. It's one of the main reasons I'm stealth and try not to draw much attention to my past :(
Quote from: Tristan on July 24, 2013, 01:25:41 PM
I know this may sound bad but if you want to pass as much as possible you might want to blend in ( unless you live in a more liberal area/ state like California ) . The more LBGTQ activist stuff your involved in the more you stand out as something different. Just from what I have always herd from many others that's the case. It's one of the main reasons I'm stealth and try not to draw much attention to my past :(
I wrestle with drawing attention to my past daily. "Should I tell the story when my Swim Coach thought it would be a good idea for the team to go for a run, outside, in a blizzard, in only our speedos?" When I tell old stories I try to gender neutralize them, still... it's hard.
Minnesota hasn't really been bad at all. Went back home to Wisconsin with no problems. Iowa. Washington was a breeze. I suspect there are meanies everywhere, and I'm sure I "blew it" at work when I freaked out about their discriminatory insurance. My direct management is cool, but when you get into the upper echelons it's an old boys club with old ideas.
Even the unintentional misgenderings from those who never knew me as a guy are getting to me. I didn't transition for them, but it still hurts. So what does my mind come up with as an idea to reconnect with my femininity? I don't know if I have the guts to do it but, there are fitness clubs that teach pole dancing in the area. I've never been sexual, or flexible, I just like the idea of connecting with my female sexuality while burning some calories. And answering the question, "What are you doing tonight Paige?" with "I'm learning to pole dance!" I think that would be a blast!
We. Will. Have. To. See! For now, it's a nice dream...
Quote from: Tristan on July 24, 2013, 01:25:41 PM
I know this may sound bad but if you want to pass as much as possible you might want to blend in ( unless you live in a more liberal area/ state like California ) . The more LBGTQ activist stuff your involved in the more you stand out as something different. Just from what I have always herd from many others that's the case. It's one of the main reasons I'm stealth and try not to draw much attention to my past :(
I live in California and have my fair share of encounters with jerks everywhere, including SF. If anyone doesn't believe me then please remember that in a heavy liberal bastion like California, Prop 8 was passed, by the voters, by a sizable margin. I'm just sayin.
Quote from: Misato on July 24, 2013, 10:04:53 PM
Even the unintentional misgenderings from those who never knew me as a guy are getting to me. I didn't transition for them, but it still hurts. So what does my mind come up with as an idea to reconnect with my femininity? I don't know if I have the guts to do it but, there are fitness clubs that teach pole dancing in the area. I've never been sexual, or flexible, I just like the idea of connecting with my female sexuality while burning some calories. And answering the question, "What are you doing tonight Paige?" with "I'm learning to pole dance!" I think that would be a blast!
We. Will. Have. To. See! For now, it's a nice dream...
I read some things about those in deep stealth. It took them 3+/- years to fully acclimate. Your still early on in this process. I think part of the problem is you just don't have enough fun. Gotta work on that.
As far as the pole dancing...GO FOR IT!!!! It will help in so many ways you will not believe it.
Quote from: JLT1 on July 24, 2013, 11:48:57 PM
I read some things about those in deep stealth. It took them 3+/- years to fully acclimate. Your still early on in this process. I think part of the problem is you just don't have enough fun. Gotta work on that.
As far as the pole dancing...GO FOR IT!!!! It will help in so many ways you will not believe it.
I must agree with you on the I don't have enough fun. Ever since I had to switch jobs I've been one big stress ball.
Your sayin was well put, I thought, Tiffany.
I know where your coming from Misato.
I've been getting stares since about two months into HRT, at first it was just the odd person and more curious than anything, but now being five months in, it's almost overwhelming. I don't present female at the moment, but i do have longish hair. Stares range from curious, dissaproving or outwardly uncomfortable. Sitting on the tube, its getting a bit awkward as even if it's a packed tube carriage, people aren't exactly falling over themselves to sit in the seat opposite the one i am sitting in. To be honest i am feeling like other people perceive me as some sort of freak. Ordering food at a cafe on both occasions me and a female friend popped in for lunch, standing in line i would be addressed without a gender/title. The men would get 'what would you like sir/mate?, the women 'darling and miss', and i get nothing lol. I mean i can visibly see on the guy's face that he is not happy. I even got called 'boy girl' by my neighbours grand kids as i walked past as they wasn't sure which to settle on. I guess we got to plough on through this... does get rather upsetting at times :(
On a bit of a tangent, I've noticed a lot of people talk about going out in 'guy mode'. How do people present? I mean to say, if your going out with a feminine cut hair style and shaped eyebrows is it really guy mode, even if your dressed in men's clothing?
I have worn my hair long and down to my butt for most of my adult life. Long hair on a guy is enough to get stared at. Really it is OK to me and understandable if uncomfortable at times to be part of a minority that most folks know very little about. I do feel different relative to my peers and I understand that people can be rudely assertive or aggressive about their curiosity. In my better moods I think of it as a minor celebrity status that helps to educate others. For the very few aggressive types I encounter I try to have a practiced witty retort ready---of course my best responses occur to me an hour or so later:-) My friends, including Susan's, help me with some more playful concepts for responding to the curious and the nut cases I encounter as a partly passable trans person.
I may look like boy mode today. My body is obviously changing but I am operating a big tracked excavator on our farm and will wear the heavy clothes needed for protection and just keeping some dirt off. We have likely all seen work crews that included women in heavy work wear and hard hats. How about a woman in a flight suit? I worked for years in surgical scrubs, masks and hats that are basically unisex and hardly flattering garments for anyone. Clothes don't make the man or woman, its more about what's between our ears;-)
Quote from: Bardoux on July 26, 2013, 10:37:19 AM
On a bit of a tangent, I've noticed a lot of people talk about going out in 'guy mode'. How do people present? I mean to say, if your going out with a feminine cut hair style and shaped eyebrows is it really guy mode, even if your dressed in men's clothing?
Yeah I have been getting similar to comments to you though I mainly just get gendered female. I could easily solve the problem and just present female but I haven't had laser so I feel really uncomfortable when I do. I present androgynously male. But yeah I guess my eyebrows would make guy mode not so guyish. Not to mention boobs.
Quote from: Bardoux on July 26, 2013, 10:37:19 AM
On a bit of a tangent, I've noticed a lot of people talk about going out in 'guy mode'. How do people present? I mean to say, if your going out with a feminine cut hair style and shaped eyebrows is it really guy mode, even if your dressed in men's clothing?
Well I've got male pattern baldness, so if I'm not wearing a wig or a hat, it's guy mode!
Quote from: Bardoux on July 26, 2013, 10:37:19 AM
On a bit of a tangent, I've noticed a lot of people talk about going out in 'guy mode'. How do people present? I mean to say, if your going out with a feminine cut hair style and shaped eyebrows is it really guy mode, even if your dressed in men's clothing?
I tie my hair back and wear my old geeky t-shirts for "guy mode" moments. I only do it for the good of my SO and our relationship. She appreciates it and for us I don't mind. Hair may be long and brows shaped, but I seem to have no trouble being gendered as a guy.
Quote from: Bardoux on July 26, 2013, 10:37:19 AM
Ordering food at a cafe on both occasions me and a female friend popped in for lunch, standing in line i would be addressed without a gender/title. The men would get 'what would you like sir/mate?, the women 'darling and miss', and i get nothing lol.
Going out of order here I guess, but this bugs me too cause I experience the same thing.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 26, 2013, 11:13:55 AM
But yeah I guess my eyebrows would make guy mode not so guyish. Not to mention boobs.
Sometimes my boobs just make me look heavyset. I love them, I mean I really love them. I just fear if I still had to use the men's locker rooms at a gym, no one would bat an eye. But my six months of potent HRT doesn't hit until Monday, so I've got a lot of time to let them develop yet.
I still feel good right now. I finally got to wear that new top today and I wanted to show myself off in it. So I went out to dinner with a friend. Who was in guy mode. And she still got appropriately gendered! Though, I did too cause we were greeted with, "Ladies". :)
One thing of humorous note. Some of the women at work have been discussing hair removal options with me lately as they eye up hair that bothers them that they'd like removed. At least it's something we can bond over.
Quote from: learningtolive on July 23, 2013, 02:16:10 PM
On the other hand, I do think some of us aren't political or active enough. How many transwomen really get involved in trying to pass anti-discrimination laws? Some do, but I think there are many who just stand aside. I don't think it's right for us to ignore the plight of others. Even if you pass and don't need to worry about such laws, your trans-sisters may very well have to. I think it is only right to stand up and fight. That doesn't mean you have to expose yourself and come out of the closet. It just means being vocal about things that are important. So it's okay to be political. It's just not every aspect of life and daily existence should be a political struggle.
I have actually gotten involved in passing Anti-discrimination laws. In fact, I went to Lobby in Washington DC this past June for ENDA and immigration reform. Apparently no other Susans members went. which was sad. I bet we have at least 1 member in Washington DC that could have come out to lobby. So as far as I know, I am a single person on this forum who is willing to speak out, take a stand and fight for the well being of others. That trip crushed our budget, I'm behind on all my bills because of it. But I couldn't take being screwed over again like last time ENDA was up for vote. Mia Macy got us the legal recourse for discrimination at work. I want ENDA to pass so that there is absolutely no doubt that discrimination is wrong and nip it in the bud before it ever gets to become an issue.
Well, many of us do lobby and fight for the issues we believe in. I've never gone down to dc to protest or lobby, but I have done many other things. Believe me, I have been very involved in the political process and have met more politicians than I care to acknowledge. I'm very familiar with the ins and outs of the system without disclosing my background or the reasons for it. I'm no one special at all, but my short experience has taught me a lot. I don't take political action as a trans person, but as myself if that makes sense. As for these issues, I prefer to make phone calls and write letters. Despite what people claim, politicians do listen if you raise enough public awareness. Politicians have to be in a state of fear over the issue or believe that they can reap electoral or financial benefits from it. What would help is for a lot more people to make a simple phone call to their congressional district office. With enough numbers, that can be a major player. And it would be great if lgbt organizations started to use much more of their resources to financially back this sort of legislation in areas that can be worked. If politicians see a new voting block and donor potential, they will back anything (as long as it isn't too risky). Why do you think Obama came out for gay marriage? Because he saw the electoral advantage but also realized the potential that this would create for donations. For politicians, money and popular salient issues talks. You got to win the public over and prove to the politicians they have something to gain. Most of the people who support Enda already have the lgbt community and their donantions on their side. They need to branch out and reach politicians who can be swayed. Obviously, not all can be convinced due to their constituency and current donors, but some can if you can prove it will be beneficial. As of now, we need more public awareness to be raised by lgbt groups in areas they haven't taken on and we need the general population to take a stand. End of political rant.
I went off on a major tangent there, but my original point was that there are many ways to get involved. I'm sure there are many here who also take action in their own way and that can have an impact.
Okay, thread derailment over.
P.S. Misato, I haven't heard from you in while. I hope you are okay. :)
Quote from: Keaira on August 08, 2013, 09:31:49 PM
I have actually gotten involved in passing Anti-discrimination laws. In fact, I went to Lobby in Washington DC this past June for ENDA and immigration reform. Apparently no other Susans members went. which was sad. I bet we have at least 1 member in Washington DC that could have come out to lobby. So as far as I know, I am a single person on this forum who is willing to speak out, take a stand and fight for the well being of others. That trip crushed our budget, I'm behind on all my bills because of it. But I couldn't take being screwed over again like last time ENDA was up for vote. Mia Macy got us the legal recourse for discrimination at work. I want ENDA to pass so that there is absolutely no doubt that discrimination is wrong and nip it in the bud before it ever gets to become an issue.
I am also "no one special" but I am a minor and local politician with over 20 years of elected office experience. I was recently reelected as a water commissioner in my new "out" trans presentation and under my new name. As a College Trustee I was able to foster understanding and change with my public coming out that resulted in three days of presentations including transgender panels I was on. We changed the College's diversity and discrimination policies to include gender identity. New people are coming out and we started a local trans support group.
While I greatly appreciate the sacrifices and commitment that took you to DC I try and remember the old 70's admonition to "Think globally but act locally" ENDA is essential and grassroots activism is where it works for some of us. We do this together.
IMHO all "out" Trans people are making a statement and taking a stand and we certainly have many very capable and articulate folks right here who speak out in their communities too.
Thank you for being a stellar activist
YES!! I'm not alone! that's fantastic to see. ^_^
And thank you for your work.
I'm probably going to help out the Indiana Transgender Rights Advocacy Alliance (INTRAA). I've never really been one to talk to groups before but I'm trying to broaden my horizons. I'm friends with the president and director of INTRAA and they'd like me to give presentations. And I will be helping a dear friend of mine set up a support group. She's set up a few in different places before. So, I guess that's me thinking locally.