http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/07/2013729131610785739.html (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/07/2013729131610785739.html)
Source: Al-Jazeera English No author listed
"Pope Francis has said gay people should not be judged or marginalised but integrated into society. Speaking to journalists [. . . ] he reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's position that homosexual acts were sinful, but homosexual orientation was not. "If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge him?" the pope said on Monday in a broad-ranging 80-minute conversation with reporters on the plane."
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See also this video from the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23498481 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23498481)
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While not Catholic and while I haven't been following everything this pope has said and done, I've been finding him to be refreshing compared to the past few.
I agree LearnedHand, he is like a breath of fresh air sometimes. He seems down to earth too.
Compared to Herr Ratzinger, he seems like veritable hippie. But let's not get too excited. This isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.
Maddy
Oh those are just empty words made to make everyone feel good about themselves. They still think gays are sinners, should not get to marry, not adopt or otherwise live out their life styles. The Vatican is far from the woods and I think the popes are full ofit.
Talk is cheap.
The Vatican is opposed to same sex marriage and by claiming that homosexuality is a sin places itself quite firmly as a supporter of homophobia.
The Vatican is also opposed to women priests which implies that they are considered inferior and unworthy to be spiritual leaders.
And as for the transgendered...
I don't think the pope's statement is merely just a bunch of empty words.
While my opinion probably isn't a very popular one here, I think if one's religious texts state that something is a sin, that people shouldn't just change their minds simply to gain points in the world's (or at least Western nations) popular opinion. While I am not a Christian, and have never read the Bible in full, I know there are sections that indicate that homosexual acts are sinful, I also know that some people read other parts of the Bible as saying it is okay. Maybe in time the Catholic church will agree with the more LGBT-friendly interpretations, but for now, while they still read it as being a sin, saying that simply being homosexual isn't sinful and that the we're not the ones to judge gays is a step in the right direction. [especially since in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't very long ago where people said just being gay (even without acts) was a sin and an abomination in God's eyes]
I think this is a particularly important message in areas of the world where people actively hunt down gays and lesbians in order to publically ostracize them, and even murder them. Some of these places are regions where the Catholic church has more clout in the minds of ordinary citizens than in Western nations. The world has a problem where Christian religious extremists go into "developing nations" on evangelical missions and tell citizens there that homosexuals are going to hell, that gays are trying to infect the minds of their children and are solely responsible for HIV/AIDS, etc. While I don't expect anything to change soon, I hope the message of "who am I to judge?" [coming from the most influential man in Roman Catholicism] will spread towards other Christians.
I fine with people thinking I am going to hell if I have homosexual sex, just as long as they're not discriminating against me or trying to kill me. People think a lot of actions are sins but don't necessarily discriminate or disrespect people who do those acts.
[side note, I do find this pope more refreshing for other reasons as well as his above statement. . . ]
I'm not impressed. Mormons say the exact same thing. It's just a way of promoting homophobia while making it look like they're accepting. Replace "homosexual" with "heterosexual" and see how happy straights are about that kind of an attitude. It goes along with the mentality that being gay is something that should be cured--that is, that it's okay if you "feel" gay as long as you don't "be" gay (so, a guy can be attracted to another guy but he can't so much as hold a guy's hand or kiss him).
I don't find him refreshing at all. Let's not forget his sponsorship of the Argentinian Milatary Junta and his involvement with silencing dissent. But that is just my opinion.
As for this story, this is nothing new. Christians have been saying this for a long time. Most Catholics that I know will state that they don't hate gay people, but the hate the act of homosexuality. Sure, that isn't what all of them say, but this isn't really new Catholic policy. I don't know why this is making headlines because it doesn't change anything.
I used to be a bus driver,I drove a bus route that picked up and dropped off pupils for a Catholic school.They were the most transphobic thick ignorant brats I have ever had the misfortune to deal with.The gay and lesbian drivers also got the same treatment,too little too late Pope!
hate the sin, not the sinner has always been the philosophy of Catholicism.
Quote from: Dreams2014 on July 31, 2013, 03:53:25 AM
hate the sin, not the sinner has always been the philosophy of Catholicism.
I hate people that say this, and it's not just the Catholics. It's a cop-out to make their bigotry more palatable. Sure it sounds reasonable at first glance, but on closer inspection it's just as vile as the other crap they're spewing out. I'm sure we can all relate to this. I don't know how many times I've heard people say that transsexuals should accept and make do with the sex we were born with. ie. it's not wrong to be trans, but transitioning is.
Maybe this is more of a discussion for the Christianity section of the board, but if its against their religion, what do we want them to do? I don't think they'll change their religion just because we don't agree with their interpretation. Ending those classes to get people to stop being gay/trans would be fine, though I am not sure if the Catholic church in particular does or endorses those.
Quote from: LearnedHand on July 31, 2013, 06:24:42 AM
Maybe this is more of a discussion for the Christianity section of the board, but if its against their religion, what do we want them to do?
I'm not saying they have to. I'm just saying I don't like they way they try to pretend to change to mask their bigotry and score cheap points in the international community.
On another note, I don't think any given religious belief should be tolerated just because it's part of said religions dogma. For instance, we don't allow parents to withhold life saving medical treatment of their children just because the treatment goes against their beliefs. Nor would we allow Aztec beheadings should the Aztec religion have a contemporary revival.
Quote
I don't think they'll change their religion just because we don't agree with their interpretation.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't critique them.
Quote from: LearnedHand on July 31, 2013, 06:24:42 AM
I don't think they'll change their religion just because we don't agree with their interpretation.
Maybe not, but if you are a religious leader or an authority you occupy a position of influencing culture and what people think and believe and I feel that this carries additional responsibilities.
Someone who calls themselves a Catholic, wears a cross round their neck and who says homosexuality is a sin doesn't present me with an issue. It's freedom of speech. It's their opinion and I believe they have equal right to their personal beliefs and freedom of speech as I have to mine.
However when it's the Pope or Vatican speaking from a position of authority it's not okay. This to me is just as unacceptable as the Iranian authorities banning women from education and the South African government saying that whites are superior to non-whites (apartheid).
This is where a lot of our problems come from in the world today. We accept bigotry in the name of religion and remain indifferent to the oppression of women, in some cases men and minorities.
We convince ourselves we are living in freedom and democracy when we are living actually in economic tyranny and because of our indifference to this tyranny the vast majority of people in the world are shackled in poverty.
A sin to me is something which is detrimental or harmful either to oneself or another person. The Bible claiming that a man choosing to lie down next to another man and have relations with him as a woman is a sin is something I can accept. In making that choice he is going against himself and deceiving the other man. This to me is sound logic.
But I fail to see how a homosexual having sex with another, or a lesbian for that matter (having sex with another woman) is any more detrimental or harmful than sex between a man and a woman.
My premise here of course is that neither being a homosexual or lesbian is a choice but is a fundamental part of who someone is as a person.
I think there may be a positive side to all this with the pope and in another thread, Pat Roberson on transgeders. These people are not stupid and they have postions of power because they can "read" society and manipulate it to some extent. Me personally, I think they are talking through one side of their mouth but what are they seeing or thinking of the way society is heading? Could it be a good sign of things to come regardless of how they really feel? It's possible. Just the way they are all of a sudden nonjudgmental leads me to believe that they feel their grasp on power is threatened and they will do or say anything to keep it.
The catholic church has changed it's position on things many times. Why not do it again?
Quote from: dreaming.forever on July 30, 2013, 04:39:15 PM
I'm not impressed. Mormons say the exact same thing. It's just a way of promoting homophobia while making it look like they're accepting. Replace "homosexual" with "heterosexual" and see how happy straights are about that kind of an attitude. It goes along with the mentality that being gay is something that should be cured--that is, that it's okay if you "feel" gay as long as you don't "be" gay (so, a guy can be attracted to another guy but he can't so much as hold a guy's hand or kiss him).
When you have a church, such as the Catholics or the Latter Day Saints, who believe that the purpose of marriage is to produce children, then the conflict with same-sex marriage is going to exist.
I don't give the dogma a second thought, because it has no effect on me.
Quote from: Jamie D on August 05, 2013, 03:13:13 PM
When you have a church, such as the Catholics or the Latter Day Saints, who believe that the purpose of marriage is to produce children, then the conflict with same-sex marriage is going to exist.
I'm very curious to see how these organizations respond when
(not if, when) reproductive technology overcomes the current barriers to trans* and same-sex reproduction.
Maddy
I'm so glad I live in the UK. Practically no LDS and few Catholics.
Yes we had the same sex marriage issue but it's recently been made legal.
All we need to do now is oust the Church of England as a state religion.
Quote from: Dreams2014 on August 05, 2013, 03:32:21 PM
I'm so glad I live in the UK. Practically no LDS and few Catholics.
Yes we had the same sex marriage issue but it's recently been made legal.
All we need to do now is oust the Church of England as a state religion.
I guess you can "thank" Henry VIII for that.
Quote from: Jamie D on August 05, 2013, 03:48:03 PM
I guess you can "thank" Henry VIII for that.
I can, and I will. Without him there would have been no reformation, and no golden age thanks to Elizabeth I.
If none of that had happened I shudder to think how we would have turned out.
Quote from: MadeleineG on August 05, 2013, 03:29:25 PM
I'm very curious to see how these organizations respond when (not if, when) reproductive technology overcomes the current barriers to trans* and same-sex reproduction.
Maddy
I would assume they'd still be against it. For same-sex reproduction, they'd still have their "Adam and Eve" argument. For trans people, they'd still argue it's "not natural" (i.e., that transitioning is contrary to god's purpose for trans people, due to being "made *insert birth gender* by god"). Being able to reproduce wouldn't change much; instead of listing an inability to reproduce as an argument against it, they'd just start arguing against technologically-assisted reproduction (ignoring the fact that some straight couples opt for IVF, which isn't
that "natural"--just like they ignore the fact that the "you can't reproduce" thing would mean that elderly, infertile straight couples shouldn't [by their logic] be able to wed).
R.I. priests try to interpret pope's remarks on gays
http://www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20130817-r.i.-priests-try-to-interpret-popes-remarks-on-gays.ece
Source: Providence Journal Author: Richard C. Dujardin
"Many people were surprised when Pope Francis appeared to set a new tone on the church's relationship with gays, telling reporters, "If [homosexuals] accept the Lord and have goodwill, who am I to judge them? They shouldn't be marginalized." In a church that continues to hold homosexual behavior to be a sin, his remarks on July 29 have left many local parish priests, the Catholic Church's boots on the ground, wondering how to mesh his comments with their experiences in Rhode Island, which has just legalized gay marriage and where a startling number of Catholics now believe it's OK for a couple to live together without getting married."
"Some of the topical questions facing priests now: Should they deny communion to an unmarried couple who lives together? Should they tell gay couples that their lives are disordered and they should refrain from Communion or go elsewhere? Or should they welcome the couples with open and forgiving arms?"
This article features some interviews with various Catholic priests in the state.
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If the link no longer works in a day or two, it's because it's no longer "Breaking News" (don't know why it's breaking news now lol), so just PM me if you can't read it and I'll find the article's new link. :)
I am not Catholic, but I think I really like this pope now :D just looking at things he has done since he became pope...
But, I can see how other Catholics are probably freaking out now, waiting to see people start saying the pope is just joking, or is crazy or something stupid like that.
Yeah as far as Pope's go, Francis is alright. He's really humble and from what I've seen, his heart is in the right place.