Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any method to increase the effects of their hrt or make the timeline shorter? I know patience is a virtue and all that yada yada ( ;)), but is there a way to make the process shorter or increase the effectiveness of hrt? While I am assuming there is nothing to do other than wait, I wanted to see if maybe there is something I missed. Though I realize this is just probably a nice fantasy that I have devolped. :D
P.S. I'm not impatient. I'll gladly continue waiting and accepting with glee the small changes as they come. But who wouldn't want to kickstart their hrt if they could.
I see what you did there!
Mötley Crüe - Kickstart My Heart (Official Music Video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4aob4zlhIk#)
Quote from: Miss Bungle on August 09, 2013, 12:41:39 PM
Ugh...Motely Crue....gross.
Oh, come on. They were a fun band. Though, I didn't think glam was your cup of tea,lol.
Quote from: learningtolive on August 09, 2013, 12:35:48 PM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any method to increase the effects of their hrt or make the timeline shorter? I know patience is a virtue and all that yada yada ( ;)), but is there a way to make the process shorter or increase the effectiveness of hrt? While I am assuming there is nothing to do other than wait, I wanted to see if maybe there is something I missed. Though I realize this is just probably a nice fantasy that I have devolped. :D
P.S. I'm not impatient. I'll gladly continue waiting and accepting with glee the small changes as they come. But who wouldn't want to kickstart their hrt if they could.
Not a kick start but something that kills E is smoking so if you do then i would quit if you do not then do not start lol..
Remember this is a revisit of a new Puberty. If you remember how long the first one was they say this is twice as long. I just had my GCS done in April and before that i thought everything (over 13 years HRT +) was over for me and what i had was what i got. Well let me tell you it seems someone did not tell my body, i have been kinda going thru another mini bout of puberty since. So relax and enjoy this moment and take what you get when you get.
Hugs
Izzy
Quote from: Miss Bungle on August 09, 2013, 12:53:52 PM
I was into it at first but that only because MTV shoved it down the collective throats of the world and we didn't have the internet in those days.
Wow...if I could have heard Napalm Death, Carcass and the like when they just putting out demos and records only available as imports just by clicking a mouse...wow.
The only Glam I was into was GNR, Bon Jovi and Def Leppard. Once I heard the heavier bands, the glam bands went into the trash.
And even though they weren't a strict metal band, Faith No More were MUCH more fun than Motely Crue.
I never lived through the 80s, so my experience is much different. I discovered the 80s when I was a teen in the early 2000s; therefore, we may see things differently. I like Crue, GNR and Faith No More, but could never get into Bon Jovi or Def Leppard (except the early stuff).
Quote from: mind is quiet now on August 09, 2013, 01:06:07 PM
Not a kick start but something that kills E is smoking so if you do then i would quit if you do not then do not start lol..
Remember this is a revisit of a new Puberty. If you remember how long the first one was they say this is twice as long. I just had my GCS done in April and before that i thought everything (over 13 years HRT +) was over for me and what i had was what i got. Well let me tell you it seems someone did not tell my body, i have been kinda going thru another mini bout of puberty since. So relax and enjoy this moment and take what you get when you get.
Hugs
Izzy
I never smoked a cigarette in my life, so I am good to go there. I figured that was the only way, but a girl can dream and try.
You should eat a balanced diet but add in some extra protein. Take the daily vitamin but also add in some additional antioxidants. Changing takes energy and protein but will also produce more free radicals so get something that will minimize the impact of those. Increase electrolytes to help offset the diuretic action of spiro. If your insurance will pay for it (and I think you have some issues there, being on your fathers plan), extra blood tests and follow up with a good endo will allow them to optimize the dosages rather than just guess.
Thanks Devlyn I love that song! ;D
As for the topic I don't think their is a way to speed up the effects of hrt. Since hrt is basically a second puberty why would you want to rush the affects? That really doesn't sound like you would get very good results if it was rushed. Your first puberty took years and so will this one. So sit back and enjoy life your still young you will get where you want eventually but it does take time so relax. ;)
Quote from: JLT1 on August 09, 2013, 01:25:17 PM
You should eat a balanced diet but add in some extra protein. Take the daily vitamin but also add in some additional antioxidants. Changing takes energy and protein but will also produce more free radicals so get something that will minimize the impact of those. Increase electrolytes to help offset the diuretic action of spiro. If your insurance will pay for it (and I think you have some issues there, being on your fathers plan), extra blood tests and follow up with a good endo will allow them to optimize the dosages rather than just guess.
Great advice! I'm a vegetarian, so I really don't get a whole lot of protein. I need to find a substitute. Sometimes I think about going back to meat, but I could never do it. I'm too much of a hippie. Yeah, I can't do extra blood tests. My father took me off his plan, but I will be getting insurance again soon.
Quote from: Heather on August 09, 2013, 01:25:34 PM
Thanks Devlyn I love that song! ;D
As for the topic I don't think their is a way to speed up the effects of hrt. Since hrt is basically a second puberty why would you want to rush the affects? That really doesn't sound like you would get very good results if it was rushed. Your first puberty took years and so will this one. So sit back and enjoy life your still young you will get where you want eventually but it does take time so relax. ;)
There you go again. Trying to be reasonable and giving logical advice instead of playing into my fantasy of a 3 month transition. ;)
Quote from: learningtolive on August 09, 2013, 01:44:12 PM
There you go again. Trying to be reasonable and giving logical advice instead of playing into my fantasy of a 3 month transition. ;)
Hey that's just what I do. ;) But while your waiting for hrt to change you could be working on other things presentation wise. Like you can work on your voice, walk, and you can also work on skincare which is very important. I don't know how good you are with makeup but most of us can always use some practice.
Everybody always tells me all the progress I've made but hrt was just part of that equation without all the other work I put into myself I wouldn't be even close to the woman I am today. You can only get so far with hrt alone they are not a miracle drugs and all the other things we do to are appearance are what determines whether we can pass or not.
May I also suggest starting to go out before you pass I know it's hard but it can help to see where your at. And it's also helps to see how well you handle other people. Hormones are nice but they won't get you where you need to be without the other stuff. ;)
getting enough sleep will help. My first few months on HRT I only slept about two hours a day....I didn't see much result until I got my sleep schedule under control
Unfortunately, out of everything that I've ever seen, there really is no way to speed it up.
Increased E levels won't do a darned thing. Because the body has a chemical compound called SHBG (which increases as E levels go up,) and renders the excess useless to the body. In fact, I have a theory that SHBG is the reason why it takes the body something like 6 months to really get going with the HRT changes, because the body's SHBG is used to binding to testosterone, and bonds more freely to it, so it takes a LONG time for the body's SHBG levels to reset to being used to binding to estrogen once the T is gone, and as such it takes that long for the E to really begin doing much.
Really the key to HRT success seems to be sustained levels of testosterone that are within the average female range of about 25-95. consistent T levels will let the body re-equilibrate itself to running on E properly, and then the changes will start. And messing with this balance will only slow you down even more because it will take a long time to re-equilibrate again. So the only thing to do is really get your hormone levels checked, make sure that they're consistently within the right ranges, and if that's true, then you're good to go.
So yeah... there's not much you can do. Just let it happen. It's hard as hell to feel like nothing's changing, and wishing it would go faster, but that's just the reality of transition unfortunately. I don't recall a single person on these forums EVER saying that it was going too fast and they wished HRT would go slower. EVERYONE wishes that it would go faster. Welcome to the family!
Quote from: learningtolive on August 09, 2013, 12:35:48 PM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any method to increase the effects of their hrt or make the timeline shorter? I know patience is a virtue and all that yada yada ( ;)), but is there a way to make the process shorter or increase the effectiveness of hrt? While I am assuming there is nothing to do other than wait, I wanted to see if maybe there is something I missed. Though I realize this is just probably a nice fantasy that I have devolped. :D
P.S. I'm not impatient. I'll gladly continue waiting and accepting with glee the small changes as they come. But who wouldn't want to kickstart their hrt if they could.
Not that the first reply (tsk tsk Devlyn) didn't take this topic flying of the tracks ...
Implants. If I ever get back on HRT this is the way I want to go.
Talk to Jennygirl about them.
Quote from: learningtolive on August 09, 2013, 12:43:43 PM
Oh, come on. They were a fun band. Though, I didn't think glam was your cup of tea,lol.
Glam?! Bitchin'
SWEET THE BALLROOM BLITZ HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKAJRux4ss#)
Now look what I've done. :o
Quote from: Heather on August 09, 2013, 02:19:24 PM
Hey that's just what I do. ;) But while your waiting for hrt to change you could be working on other things presentation wise. Like you can work on your voice, walk, and you can also work on skincare which is very important. I don't know how good you are with makeup but most of us can always use some practice.
Everybody always tells me all the progress I've made but hrt was just part of that equation without all the other work I put into myself I wouldn't be even close to the woman I am today. You can only get so far with hrt alone they are not a miracle drugs and all the other things we do to are appearance are what determines whether we can pass or not.
May I also suggest starting to go out before you pass I know it's hard but it can help to see where your at. And it's also helps to see how well you handle other people. Hormones are nice but they won't get you where you need to be without the other stuff. ;)
I know you're right, but I'm not ready to go out yet. I'm very shy and embarrassed.
Quote from: Oriah on August 09, 2013, 05:12:17 PM
getting enough sleep will help. My first few months on HRT I only slept about two hours a day....I didn't see much result until I got my sleep schedule under control
Yeah, I should sleep more then I do. I'm a bit of an insomniac.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on August 09, 2013, 05:27:55 PM
Unfortunately, out of everything that I've ever seen, there really is no way to speed it up.
Increased E levels won't do a darned thing. Because the body has a chemical compound called SHBG (which increases as E levels go up,) and renders the excess useless to the body. In fact, I have a theory that SHBG is the reason why it takes the body something like 6 months to really get going with the HRT changes, because the body's SHBG is used to binding to testosterone, and bonds more freely to it, so it takes a LONG time for the body's SHBG levels to reset to being used to binding to estrogen once the T is gone, and as such it takes that long for the E to really begin doing much.
Really the key to HRT success seems to be sustained levels of testosterone that are within the average female range of about 25-95. consistent T levels will let the body re-equilibrate itself to running on E properly, and then the changes will start. And messing with this balance will only slow you down even more because it will take a long time to re-equilibrate again. So the only thing to do is really get your hormone levels checked, make sure that they're consistently within the right ranges, and if that's true, then you're good to go.
So yeah... there's not much you can do. Just let it happen. It's hard as hell to feel like nothing's changing, and wishing it would go faster, but that's just the reality of transition unfortunately. I don't recall a single person on these forums EVER saying that it was going too fast and they wished HRT would go slower. EVERYONE wishes that it would go faster. Welcome to the family!
Another do gooder trying to foil my plan to speedy and quick transition. ;)
Seriously though, I know you are right and thank you for your encouraging words. Still, I'm only two or so month in, so it is hard to be patient; however, I'll keep trying. :)
Quote from: Jamie D on August 09, 2013, 07:05:57 PM
Not that the first reply (tsk tsk Devlyn) didn't take this topic flying of the tracks ...
Implants. If I ever get back on HRT this is the way I want to go.
Talk to Jennygirl about them.
Glam?! Bitchin'
SWEET THE BALLROOM BLITZ HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKAJRux4ss#)
Now look what I've done. :o
Are implants expensive? I imagine they are. Also, I don't know if my endo would allow that method. Plus, I'm kind of scared about them implanting something in me. However, I wouldn't mind having anything close to Jennygirl's results, so there must be a method to the madness, lol.
I believe that Dr John O'Dea in the Los Angeles area may consult with other endocrinologists.
He is Jenny's endo. Her result has been in about one year. Cost depends on insurance coverage, I think. Something to consider is that the implants normally go in your butt, under a local anesthesia, and last from 3 to 6 months. Each implant is the size of a rice grain, and you normally start with 3 to 6. I believe Jenny said 12 was the max dose, and she pays $75 per implant out of pocket.
http://www.odeamedical.com/ (http://www.odeamedical.com/)
Quote from: learningtolive on August 09, 2013, 10:13:47 PM
Are implants expensive? I imagine they are. Also, I don't know if my endo would allow that method. Plus, I'm kind of scared about them implanting something in me. However, I wouldn't mind having anything close to Jennygirl's results, so there must be a method to the madness, lol.
:D Thanks LTL
Yes! Implants are the fastest way to go, and it's all dependent on how many your endo is comfy giving you. My endo, Dr. John O'Dea in LA, will do up to 12 pellets at a time. At $75/pellet every 3-4 months, yes it is expensive.
He has told me, though, that I am feminizing at about 3X the rate. Apparently I will be done feminizing somewhere around the 1.5yr mark... then we can start to pull the dosage down quite a bit and costs will go down as well.
As far as I understand it from his explanations, pellets work faster because
1) liver is not converting oral E to estrone- a much less effective version of estrogen
2) very steady & even rate of E release- unlike shots which have a strong upward spike and a decline in E level
There are other reasons that make pellets a really good choice, mainly to do with mental and physical health. I wish there was more information about them for use as transgender hormones because I always feel like I do a shoddy job explaining it :P
I've heard spearmint tea helps. If you believe it strongly enough then the placebo effect is sure to kick in!
I forgot to mention: there are a few other members here using the implants as well- Cindy and Catherine Sarah
We will all tell you... it's worth it :)
Quote from: Jamie D on August 09, 2013, 10:58:34 PM
I believe that Dr John O'Dea in the Los Angeles area may consult with other endocrinologists.
He is Jenny's endo. Her result has been in about one year. Cost depends on insurance coverage, I think. Something to consider is that the implants normally go in your butt, under a local anesthesia, and last from 3 to 6 months. Each implant is the size of a rice grain, and you normally start with 3 to 6. I believe Jenny said 12 was the max dose, and she pays $75 per implant out of pocket.
http://www.odeamedical.com/ (http://www.odeamedical.com/)
Quote from: Jennygirl on August 09, 2013, 11:05:25 PM
:D Thanks LTL
Yes! Implants are the fastest way to go, and it's all dependent on how many your endo is comfy giving you. My endo, Dr. John O'Dea in LA, will do up to 12 pellets at a time. At $75/pellet every 3-4 months, yes it is expensive.
He has told me, though, that I am feminizing at about 3X the rate. Apparently I will be done feminizing somewhere around the 1.5yr mark... then we can start to pull the dosage down quite a bit and costs will go down as well.
As far as I understand it from his explanations, pellets work faster because
1) liver is not converting oral E to estrone- a much less effective version of estrogen
2) very steady & even rate of E release- unlike shots which have a strong upward spike and a decline in E level
There are other reasons that make pellets a really good choice, mainly to do with mental and physical health. I wish there was more information about them for use as transgender hormones because I always feel like I do a shoddy job explaining it :P
Thank you both for the info. While it does sound good, that is way out of my budget. Right now, laser is my major concern. Plus, I'd like to have some money to go shopping for clothes and a rolling saving fund for SRS and any other surgeries should they be needed. So, I think it will remain pills for this girl. Still, should the money fairy come and bless me (please I need you money fairy), I will look into it. :)
Do you know if this is ever used by doctors in NY? Maybe I can see if there is a sliding scale plan or something and check into it.
Quote from: Jen on August 09, 2013, 11:08:52 PM
I've heard spearmint tea helps. If you believe it strongly enough then the placebo effect is sure to kick in!
Well, this coffee fiend will be adding lots of spearmint tea to her daily liquid intake. :D
Quote from: mind is quiet now on August 09, 2013, 01:06:07 PM
Not a kick start but something that kills E is smoking so if you do then i would quit if you do not then do not start lol..
Hugs
Izzy
Can you tell me the source you referenced this from. I have never read anything that correlates smoking with the affects of estrogen....there would be many woman on the pill that would be pregnant if this was true. DVT is a concern but even this is rare.
Quote from: Jennygirl on August 09, 2013, 11:05:25 PM
:D Thanks LTL
Yes! Implants are the fastest way to go, and it's all dependent on how many your endo is comfy giving you. My endo, Dr. John O'Dea in LA, will do up to 12 pellets at a time. At $75/pellet every 3-4 months, yes it is expensive.
He has told me, though, that I am feminizing at about 3X the rate. Apparently I will be done feminizing somewhere around the 1.5yr mark... then we can start to pull the dosage down quite a bit and costs will go down as well.
I do agree that implants do a better job, but I have never read any research to believe they work any faster! More effective, Yes ...Faster IDK Do you know of any research that shows this to be true??
Quote from: Just Shelly on August 09, 2013, 11:32:41 PM
I do agree that implants do a better job, but I have never read any research to believe they work any faster! More effective, Yes ...Faster IDK Do you know of any research that shows this to be true??
All I have is the word of my endo. Sorry, I know I shouldn't speak in absolutes when I can't back it up with sources other than words I heard. I gotta watch that. I do trust him, though, and I am very pleased with my results to say the least.
I remember one of his main points being that it's a slow steady release and that's what makes it so effective. I chose to go full speed ahead, but the results would probably still be very good with less. I can't tell you from experience though, I started out with 7 and worked my way up to 12.
I was really happy after four months (at 7 pellets) with how much my body had already changed. It's amazing what a few of those teensy little things can do ;)
I highly recommend them at whatever level you can afford. 5 pellets every 4 months would come out at less than $100 / month. 3 would be less than $60 / month.
Quote from: Jennygirl on August 10, 2013, 12:20:43 AM
All I have is the word of my endo. Sorry, I know I shouldn't speak in absolutes when I can't back it up with sources other than words I heard. I gotta watch that. I do trust him, though, and I am very pleased with my results to say the least.
I remember one of his main points being that it's a slow steady release and that's what makes it so effective. I chose to go full speed ahead, but the results would probably still be very good with less. I can't tell you from experience though, I started out with 7 and worked my way up to 12.
I was really happy after four months (at 7 pellets) with how much my body had already changed. It's amazing what a few of those teensy little things can do ;)
I highly recommend them at whatever level you can afford. 5 pellets every 4 months would come out at less than $100 / month. 3 would be less than $60 / month.
Sorry, bit of a stupid question, but do you mean 5 pellets would be 100 every four months or every month? And that would be $100 for all 5 pellets? That
might be possible for me. It depends on a few things. I wonder if the lower amount of the pellets would be better than taking oral Estradiol and Spiro everyday? While it is more cost effective and possible for me, I don't want to sacrifice anything for lesser results as I am finally starting to see some changes.
Quote from: Jennygirl on August 10, 2013, 12:20:43 AM
All I have is the word of my endo. Sorry, I know I shouldn't speak in absolutes when I can't back it up with sources other than words I heard. I gotta watch that. I do trust him, though, and I am very pleased with my results to say the least.
I remember one of his main points being that it's a slow steady release and that's what makes it so effective. I chose to go full speed ahead, but the results would probably still be very good with less. I can't tell you from experience though, I started out with 7 and worked my way up to 12.
I was really happy after four months (at 7 pellets) with how much my body had already changed. It's amazing what a few of those teensy little things can do ;)
I highly recommend them at whatever level you can afford. 5 pellets every 4 months would come out at less than $100 / month. 3 would be less than $60 / month.
It sounds as if you are getting a higher dose...I do know that higher doses don't necessarily work better...but do come with higher risks.
My HRT doctor is ok with my E level of 762...it is on the high side but not too high still. Then theirs my regular doctor that was concerned the level was too high....but she is not comfortable prescribing HRT for trans...hence the less knowledge.
Just be safe....less is more sometimes :) I think the biggest factor is suppressing T..especially on a consistent basis....one reason I would like to get an Orchi!!
Oh my T is almost nill at a 2
Quote from: learningtolive on August 10, 2013, 01:58:26 PM
Sorry, bit of a stupid question, but do you mean 5 pellets would be 100 every four months or every month? And that would be $100 for all 5 pellets? That might be possible for me. It depends on a few things. I wonder if the lower amount of the pellets would be better than taking oral Estradiol and Spiro everyday? While it is more cost effective and possible for me, I don't want to sacrifice anything for lesser results as I am finally starting to see some changes.
Pellets would be around 100 per month for five. Or close to 400 every 4 months.
Dr. O'Dea told me on the first visit that even a small number of pellets is much better than hormone pills and anti-androgens. How fast would the feminization be compared? I don't know. I could ask though? Or you could email him and I'm sure he'd do a better job of answering these questions. If you do, I'm curious to know as well!
http://www.odeamedical.com/
Quote from: Just Shelly on August 10, 2013, 06:51:25 PM
It sounds as if you are getting a higher dose...I do know that higher doses don't necessarily work better...but do come with higher risks.
My HRT doctor is ok with my E level of 762...it is on the high side but not too high still. Then theirs my regular doctor that was concerned the level was too high....but she is not comfortable prescribing HRT for trans...hence the less knowledge.
Just be safe....less is more sometimes :) I think the biggest factor is suppressing T..especially on a consistent basis....one reason I would like to get an Orchi!!
Oh my T is almost nill at a 2
I keep asking my dr if I should have my levels checked, and he keeps telling me what a waste of time and money it would be for me at this point. He definitely has an interesting way of treating people, but the results do not lie and I appreciate his boldness.
And yeah i want to get an orchi, too. But at the same time, I think I will most likely go to Suporn for SRS- so it's not really in the cards.
Quote from: Jennygirl on August 11, 2013, 04:40:53 AM
Pellets would be around 100 per month for five. Or close to 400 every 4 months.
Dr. O'Dea told me on the first visit that even a small number of pellets is much better than hormone pills and anti-androgens. How fast would the feminization be compared? I don't know. I could ask though? Or you could email him and I'm sure he'd do a better job of answering these questions. If you do, I'm curious to know as well!
http://www.odeamedical.com/
Thanks for the info Jenny. Unfortunately, that isn't really in my budget. Even without insurance, I was able to get my estradiol for $55 for a 3 month supply. I'll just have to hope these pills will work their magic. :D
Dang girl, where are you getting your Estriadol from? When I started orals w/o insurance I got a 3 month supply from Target for $24.
Quote from: Kristina77 on October 30, 2013, 04:50:11 AM
Dang girl, where are you getting your Estriadol from? When I started orals w/o insurance I got a 3 month supply from Target for $24.
CVS.
Now that I have insurance again, all of my prescriptions are without copay. Thank god for that! Free hormones! I'm lucky that my mom is in medical and gets great benefits.
Glad you got it worked out :D Don't think O'Dea takes insurance. I'm not in a position where I can get insurance (not even with Obama-care) for an affordable price, so it made more sense for me to just to go O'Dea. The spiro was what killed my wallet -_-; $80/month yikes. Plus I didn't want to go to counseling so I saved money there.
Wow, lot has changed since I posted this thread many months ago. I remember writing this but it's like a different person wrote all this. Weird how time flys, lol. Oddly enough, however, I'm still feeling the need to kick start my hrt and am very likely going to switch to injections (I've decided pellets weren't right for my personal budget in the end).
Quote from: Kristina77 on July 12, 2014, 12:37:29 AM
Glad you got it worked out :D Don't think O'Dea takes insurance. I'm not in a position where I can get insurance (not even with Obama-care) for an affordable price, so it made more sense for me to just to go O'Dea. The spiro was what killed my wallet -_-; $80/month yikes. Plus I didn't want to go to counseling so I saved money there.
I remember spiro being quite expensive too. However, I was able to get a discount at my local cvs when I was paying out of pocket. They gave me prescription cards to lessen the cost. It's worth a shot. I can't even remember what it's like to pay for these things as it feels like such a long time ago since I was in that position, so sorry if that doesn't help. Are you doing the pellets? How's that working for you? I would imagine spiro would be cheaper than the pellets, but maybe I'm wrong.
Quote from: learningtolive on July 14, 2014, 09:20:09 PM
Wow, lot has changed since I posted this thread many months ago. I remember writing this but it's like a different person wrote all this. Weird how time flys, lol. Oddly enough, however, I'm still feeling the need to kick start my hrt and am very likely going to switch to injections
I remember spiro being quite expensive too. However, I was able to get a discount at my local cvs when I was paying out of pocket. They gave me prescription cards to lessen the cost. It's worth a shot. I can't even remember what it's like to pay for these things as it feels like such a long time ago since I was in that position, so sorry if that doesn't help. Are you doing the pellets? How's that working for you? I would imagine spiro would be cheaper than the pellets, but maybe I'm wrong.
Aaaah omg I didn't look at the dates on ur lasts posts until now! XD Injections will probably do better because it's being directly injected into your bloodstream and not having to pass through your digestive tract... that seemed to be the sticking point with oral Estrogens if I remember.
I feel like a diffferent person too after all this time, this thread was back from when I first started HRT. Now I've been full time for like 6 months or so O.o So much has happened since then. Spiro is cheaper than pellets, & for awhile I was doing both... so yeah I've gotten results hella fast XD I went full time like 2.5 months into HRT as a necessity (noticed I was getting called miss or ma'am all the time so I thought sweet might as well go full time XD)
I'm doing great on the pellets but last time I went I lessened my progestrone in favor of my estrogen (was trying to budget a little more tightly) and that idn't go so hot... I realize now how invaluble progesterone is in the equation. Too much estrogen + not enough progesterone = depression for me -_-; I sleep like 10 hours a day lol ^^; luckily though I'm 2 days away from my next appointment and getting that fixed. Lost my job due to transistion tho so it's gonna be reaaaaalllly hard to budget for pellets, luckily I have until beginning of October to figure things out again.
I don't really have any other options though since I stopped seeing my psych and O'Dea / pellets is an informed consent thing. So I still don't have the universal letter for HRT even though my name change is processing and I've been FT now for so long XD I guess I figured orals + psych = $600/mo Pellets=$300/mo with better results, so it was a no brainer for me.
I think the slow progress many people experience in HRT is mainly due to SHBG. Androgens decrease it, estrogen increases it. The goal of MTF HRT is to lower androgens and raise estrogen, however this indirectly increases SHBG. Pellets probably don't do anything special compared to other routes of administering estrogen, they're just usually administered without antiandrogens which yield lower SHBG levels due to androgens still being present. Personally I noticed very fast progress when I was only on oral estrogen and finasteride, yet when I started taking spironolactone that progress slowed down dramatically. Your best bet is to somehow lower your SHBG levels while maintaining your estrogen levels. I don't know how to do this. GH, CBG, prolactin, insulin for example can all lower SHBG, but probably not in enough proportion as would be needed in HRT. Tamoxifen is an estrogen antagonist used to block ER+ breast cancer cells, however it also acts as an estrogen agonist in the ovaries and temporarily can aid in fertility. I'd be interested to see if there are some sort of medications that can stop the liver from producing so much SHBG, and also perhaps other safer estrogen agonists that force the receptors to take and use the estrogen.
LTL in the photos you have posted, your face looks like it has taken to HRT well, what exactly are you wanting to kickstart still, breast growth? Fat redistribution? Something else?
I don't really know what to really offer for advice, as my results have been a bit quicker than I would like seeing as I am not ready for fulltime yet, and I have some small stretchmarks on my breast now. I do know that when I started Bicalutamide things really sped up, but that was probably because I hadn't been taking enough spiro to be effective. If your T is under control and your levels are good, the only thing that makes much sense is to have a more constant form of delivery and injections have to be better than the pills. I take a single E pill everyday and you can actually see the difference in my face from 3 hours after the pill and 3 hours before the pill, which means the levels have to fluctuate wildly.
Quote from: Hikari on July 14, 2014, 10:25:38 PMI take a single E pill everyday and you can actually see the difference in my face from 3 hours after the pill and 3 hours before the pill, which means the levels have to fluctuate wildly.
There's no way anything attributed to hormones would show in such a short time span like that. You're likely noticing something else.
Quote from: teeg on July 14, 2014, 11:26:57 PM
There's no way anything attributed to hormones would show in such a short time span like that. You're likely noticing something else.
Agreed. It's a psych / placebo thing absolutely. I should know because I've gone through this (which is why I went on pellets + injections instead of oral, the fluctuating amounts in your brain chemistry). I also go through it when I'm just about done with the pellets and can feel them 'fade off' as my Estrogen (and especially progestrone) fade towards the end. I feel far less feminine right before going to my pellets + injected at the 3 month mark, even though the outside world treats me no different.
It could still effect your face though, because you're not full time... how can I explain before I went full time certain situations called for 'boy version' so I intentionally would narrow my eyes or do little 'male' things from adopting a 'male' persona mentally. You mention a 3 hour cycle and this is about right. O'Dea says Estrogen pills usually last about 4 hours in your system if dissolved under the tongue... at which point ur androgens kick in and you experience a 'swing back' effect where it seems to you mentally that your testosterone is raising (it isn't, just the estrogen lowering in your brain).
This is why I do pellets- I go through a 3 month cycle instead of a 3 hour one.
Quote from: teeg on July 14, 2014, 10:18:39 PM
I think the slow progress many people experience in HRT is mainly due to SHBG. Androgens decrease it, estrogen increases it. The goal of MTF HRT is to lower androgens and raise estrogen, however this indirectly increases SHBG. Pellets probably don't do anything special compared to other routes of administering estrogen, they're just usually administered without antiandrogens which yield lower SHBG levels due to androgens still being present. Personally I noticed very fast progress when I was only on oral estrogen and finasteride, yet when I started taking spironolactone that progress slowed down dramatically
The pellets are I think superior to orals because they stay in your bloodstream. A constant influx of steady levels of Estrogen essential- especially when you're sleeping as that's when your testosterone is replenished. I think you're right though about Spiro. I took only like a quarter dose of Spiro once starting on pellets, so the effects were probably neglible... and the more I think about it I had another spurt of breast grow after quitting Spiro XD (O'Dea told me just to stop once my prescription ran out).
What you said also makes sense to something O'Dea told me- Progesterone reduces and replaces Testosterone. Makes sense to me because Progestrone is a 5a reductase substrate in the same family as Finasteride. I noticed a faster change when I kept my progesterone levels high, and I struggled less with depression / negative emotions.
Quote from: Kristina77 on July 14, 2014, 10:02:03 PM
Too much estrogen + not enough progesterone = depression for me
I noticed the same thing.
Quote from: teeg on July 14, 2014, 10:18:39 PM
I think the slow progress many people experience in HRT is mainly due to SHBG. Androgens decrease it, estrogen increases it.
I don't think androgens decrease SHBG. They just do nothing whereas estrogen in the liver stimulates production of SHBG.
Quote from: teegYour best bet is to somehow lower your SHBG levels
I think having high SHBG levels is good since it binds androgens more strongly than estrogens with the net effect of less androgen being active relative to estrogen. Taking estrogen orally vs non-orally tends to increase SHBG levels much more.
Quote from: Hikari on July 14, 2014, 10:25:38 PM
I take a single E pill everyday and you can actually see the difference in my face from 3 hours after the pill and 3 hours before the pill, which means the levels have to fluctuate wildly.
This was my feeling too on oral E (based on how I felt) and especially sublingual! On injectables, levels seem to stay high longer and things seem more stable. :)
Quote from: Kristina77 on July 15, 2014, 12:05:57 AM
Progestrone is a 5a reductase substrate in the same family as Finasteride.
In the blood, only very high levels of progesterone not found ever in the human body, even during pregnancy, can significantly inhibit 5 alpha reductase. Perhaps, super high concentrations in the skin can have an effect, I don't know.
Interesting discussion while we don't all always agree I think we can take away that oral estrogen is probably the least effective & safe ways of getting estrogen in your bloodstream, and that progesterone is necessary on some level. Like others have noted in the progestrone thread, I've noticed a change to my hairline on high doses of progesterone injections. While I've never experienced any recession or thinning and my hair has always been pretty thick on the whole, it definitely did have an 'M' shape to it as long as I can remember. That started to change on progestrone I started growing little fuzz & baby hears along the corners of that M shape. My hair is blonde so it hasn't thickened enough in the corners to a completely female shape yet, but I'm only 8 months in and at the 5 month mark I lowered my progestrone & upped my estrogen thinking I might save money & get faster results (I was wrong XD) The change is noticeable though and people have remarked on it w/o me saying anything.
Also interesting how estrogen in the liver produces that SBHG stuff! Makes sense as to why O'Dea told me to throw out the oral estrogen and said that taken in conjunction with pellets it could actually slow the feminization process! :o I've always taken my oral estrogen under the tongue / dissolved (before pellets) but never fully understood why everyone said to do it that way before now.
Quote from: Kristina77 on July 15, 2014, 03:09:03 PM
I've noticed a change to my hairline on high doses of progesterone injections.
Do you inject bio-identical progesterone or another progestogen? Because bio needs to be injected daily due to short half-life.
Quote from: Kristina77Makes sense as to why O'Dea told me to throw out the oral estrogen and said that taken in conjunction with pellets it could actually slow the feminization process!
Yes, I would think so too because of high levels of estrone orally interfering with estradiol. But maybe he has another explanation.
Quote from: KayXo on July 15, 2014, 10:22:17 AMI don't think androgens decrease SHBG. They just do nothing whereas estrogen in the liver stimulates production of SHBG.
SHBG is decreased naturally by androgens (as well as other hormones), and especially by anabolic steroids. I saw a thread on a body building forum talking about ways to reduce SHBG as it binds all sex hormones, reducing available testosterone, and thusly reducing "gains". One of the reason steroids work so well is not only because of the influx of androgens, but steroids are almost always cycled with GH, which greatly lowers SHBG, allowing more free testosterone.
Quote from: KayXo on July 15, 2014, 10:22:17 AMProgesterone reduces and replaces Testosterone.
This interested me because basically of what I mentioned before of higher androgen levels being present and more noticeable feminization progress being present. Whenever I've mentioned progesterone increasing breast growth, even on here, the consensus has always been mixed. Dutch studies have found it has no direct impact, while Boston US swears by progesterone in their patients. If progesterone does replace testosterone then perhaps this is reducing SHBG levels, allowing more active estrogen, and increasing breadth growth in that way.
I once saw a study where some British endocrinologist (she was FTM I think) discussed progesterone not being present during puberty where the majority of breast development occurs, only estrogen, so they assumed progesterone must play no role in breast development. If there were evidence of progesterone helping breast development we would've heard about it already. There is so much breast growth supplements BS out there that this would've been discovered long ago if it were true. However what this endocrinologist didn't mention is that SHBG levels drop by half when females enter puberty allowing sex hormones activity to greatly increase and mature the body.
Personally most endocrinologists I've worked with seem to think transgendered HRT is simply getting our estrogen and testosterone levels within genetic female levels and hoping by some odd luck we feminize. None of my endocrinologists have ever cared enough to think about any of this, I've had to direct my healthcare in this regard, and I doubt I'm the first. Like I suspected HRT can't be that simple. While we live as females, we still have genetic male endocrine systems, probably not designed to work well with genetic female levels. Remember that there's still little to no research on most any of the treatment we undergo. Research on breast cancer for MTF patients, progesterone effects for MTF patients, etc., there is little to none.
Quote from: teeg on July 16, 2014, 07:35:25 PM
Dutch studies have found it has no direct impact, while Boston US swears by progesterone in their patients. If progesterone does replace testosterone then perhaps this is reducing SHBG levels, allowing more active estrogen, and increasing breadth growth in that way.
I once saw a study where some British endocrinologist (she was FTM I think) discussed progesterone not being present during puberty where the majority of breast development occurs, only estrogen, so they assumed progesterone must play no role in breast development. If there were evidence of progesterone helping breast development we would've heard about it already. There is so much breast growth supplements BS out there that this would've been discovered long ago if it were true. However what this endocrinologist didn't mention is that SHBG levels drop by half when females enter puberty allowing sex hormones activity to greatly increase and mature the body.
Well, I swear by Progestrone. Just went in for another dose of pellets and my endo said to keep on the progestrone pellets because it's working wonders. On breast growth alone... I'm a B cup, and I'm only 8 months in. 8 months. I see talk around here a lot of girls struggling to fill an A cup after a year. And I'm 29 (started at 28). And my mom is only an A cup (sisters are C range). My endo told me I would hit a D easily because 8 months is only about 1/3 of the way into the feminization process. If things go really, really well I have even the potential for a DD. I could just be one of the lucky ones of course. I don't know. I can feel when the progestrone is off (i.e. more depression and anxiety). So... people can cite whichever studies they want, I know it works for me XD
There's not a whole lot of research into hormones period sadly
Quote from: Hikari on July 14, 2014, 10:25:38 PM
LTL in the photos you have posted, your face looks like it has taken to HRT well, what exactly are you wanting to kickstart still, breast growth? Fat redistribution? Something else?
I don't really know what to really offer for advice, as my results have been a bit quicker than I would like seeing as I am not ready for fulltime yet, and I have some small stretchmarks on my breast now. I do know that when I started Bicalutamide things really sped up, but that was probably because I hadn't been taking enough spiro to be effective. If your T is under control and your levels are good, the only thing that makes much sense is to have a more constant form of delivery and injections have to be better than the pills. I take a single E pill everyday and you can actually see the difference in my face from 3 hours after the pill and 3 hours before the pill, which means the levels have to fluctuate wildly.
I guess I just don't want any problems at all with passing. No doubts about what I am or anything like that. Sadly, I doubt that's the case for me regardless of the some of the positive coments I have recieved on here. I'd like to believe that I have potential as some say, but to what extent? That's a very concerning factor for me that I need to deal with. The injectinos would at the very least help me with my fluctuating e levels and I'd like to see if that makes any more change. I know I can't change the body I was given, but I'm hoping enough alterations can be made where people aren't going to know I'm a transwoman all the time. Then again, I've held myself back and have been stuborn about making some of those very same changes that are needed to get where I want cause I'm afriad of going forward to fast. In short, I guess I really don't know what I'm looking for. Even though I'm aware of what I want, my actions don't always lead me to it and they may not ever be able to even if I tried to do all the right things.
Quote from: teeg on July 16, 2014, 07:35:25 PM
SHBG is decreased naturally by androgens (as well as other hormones), and especially by anabolic steroids. I saw a thread on a body building forum talking about ways to reduce SHBG as it binds all sex hormones, reducing available testosterone, and thusly reducing "gains". One of the reason steroids work so well is not only because of the influx of androgens, but steroids are almost always cycled with GH, which greatly lowers SHBG, allowing more free testosterone.
I've never come across information suggesting that anything including androgens (or progesterone, as you suggest later) REDUCE SHBG. Can you cite actual studies, medical texts, etc that state this and have shown this for certain?
Quote from: teegI once saw a study where some British endocrinologist (she was FTM I think) discussed progesterone not being present during puberty where the majority of breast development occurs
During puberty, a girl eventually bleeds and goes through menstrual cycles where progesterone rises during the second half of the cycle. Progesterone is clearly present during puberty, not always present in significant amounts but here and there. At first though, only estrogen is present.
Quote from: teegIf there were evidence of progesterone helping breast development we would've heard about it already.
And we have. Plenty! I, for one, have experienced increased breast growth on P. Others on this forum have as well. There are plenty of studies showing the important role of P in breast development for lobulo alveolar growth and showing that density of breasts is highest when P increases (during the luteal phase) compared to E alone (follicular). Also, a VERY common "complaint" of women going on progesterone (and progestins) is swollen breasts!!! ;D
Quote from: teegHowever what this endocrinologist didn't mention is that SHBG levels drop by half when females enter puberty allowing sex hormones activity to greatly increase and mature the body.
SHBG actually increases in females due to the action of estrogen. If you compare SHBG levels in females vs males during puberty, they are higher in females.
Quote from: teegWhile we live as females, we still have genetic male endocrine systems, probably not designed to work well with genetic female levels.
I disagree. I am doing quite well right now on genetic female levels since they range from less than 100 to up to 75,000 pg/ml. Many transgirls do quite well too. I very much doubt that being XY does anything detrimental. If anything, it's that we started late taking hormones so that our bodies already masculinized some or too much and that when we do take hormones, our GROWTH hormone levels are quite low compared to during puberty which could affect breast growth, for example. I think that if an XY male (like those with androgen insensitivity) started female hormones when they were 10-12 yrs old, results would be just as good for them as for any natal female, of course, depending on their genetics too and how much they would be given.
Quote from: teegRemember that there's still little to no research on most any of the treatment we undergo. Research on breast cancer for MTF patients, progesterone effects for MTF patients, etc., there is little to none.
Not extensive research, indeed but if you really search through the studies, you'll find quite a few. It
appears (although more research is needed) that breast cancer is quite rare in transwomen. Harry Benjamin had stated to have found none in his patients as well as Gooren in Amsterdam whose team followed hundreds, if not thousands of transwomen throughout several decades although I think he found one or two later. I think only a few cases have been reported in the literature but who knows if there were more unreported. His team also published a study where they said that progestative substances did seem to make a difference in terms of breast growth and another team from Canada also remarked that it was used to allow breast to fully mature. Etc...if you look, you will find some interesting stuff. More is needed though, I agree. :) But, still with that information alone and that of ciswomen and studies on prostate cancer patients, we start to get a better idea.
Quote from: learningtolive on July 17, 2014, 08:03:52 AM
I guess I just don't want any problems at all with passing. No doubts about what I am or anything like that. Sadly, I doubt that's the case for me regardless of the some of the positive coments I have recieved on here. I'd like to believe that I have potential as some say, but to what extent? That's a very concerning factor for me that I need to deal with. The injectinos would at the very least help me with my fluctuating e levels and I'd like to see if that makes any more change. I know I can't change the body I was given, but I'm hoping enough alterations can be made where people aren't going to know I'm a transwoman all the time. Then again, I've held myself back and have been stuborn about making some of those very same changes that are needed to get where I want cause I'm afriad of going forward to fast. In short, I guess I really don't know what I'm looking for. Even though I'm aware of what I want, my actions don't always lead me to it and they may not ever be able to even if I tried to do all the right things.
I totally get where you are coming from. This is the whole reason I set myself a transition timeline of 18months from the start of HRT. I wanted to be sure I passed. Of course, there is no way I am going to make it to 18months unless my breasts just quit now, that doesn't mean that I feel my face is in much position to pass. Here is the thing though, everyone tells me I could. I get the sense that this is much the same for you. When I look at your pictures I just think "Trim the eyebrows, get some smokey eye makeup on and some cute clothes", I don't really see male at all.
If you are anything like me though, that isn't what you see when you see a photo of yourself. I only see the imperfections.I assume you are similar in this.
This is slightly OT, and my mother would probably kill me for posting this, but whatever, she is dead so there is nothing she can do about it. This is a photo from my mothers wedding day (yeah,
that is supposed to be a wedding dress). Now, she would have been like 20 or something in this photo. Imagine for a moment she were trans, would she think she is passing?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F5aSsekf.png&hash=20a4c58435bddfb11d6f5e6314ac2806e1d98c0d)
Seriously, she would be given all sorts of advice if she were asking here what she could do to pass....but, she was a natural woman, no one ever questioned her womanhood AFAIK. To be fair, this is a terribly unflattering picture of her (A better one can be found on my blog #133) but, the truth is, looking at her features and looking at my own, I don't know that I can expect all that much from more HRT.
My point from all of this, is that if she could go thru life, without others questioning her gender, then surely there is hope. If nothing else LTL, I have faith in you, it might not mean much, but I do.