Was told by someone to try here for this so reposting in hopes of getting some answers from others who might can answer my post.
So for those who don't know me (As I'm still new here) I feel like a male at times and a female at other times and at other times in between and because of this I am now having problems but before that let me explain something here. I have Autism (But please don't treat me differently because of that) and as a result my mind has developed much slower than most humans do. So when I was a teen my mind was still a child's mind with a little teen in me and now I am an adult (In my 20's) and have a Teen's mind but also some of an adult's mind. I throughout the day switch between the 3 genders which makes it VERY hard on me. When I'm alone and no one is around I usually feel female or in between while recently more male feeling than usual I think which is getting me very down and depressed. :( (Switching to a male and feeling male) Though when I'm online it's the same as when I'm alone however, what's been getting to me lately is whenever I'm around anyone, I almost always feel male. :( Tbh I prefer to feel female and when I was a teen (Again had a kid's mind and some teen at that point) I watched a movie or a documentary on this parent's child (Maybe around 5-7 yo) and he was really a she. It really upset me how they couldn't see that by forcing her to wear cloths it was hurting her. I could really understand and sympathize with her, this was WAY before I realized I was switching genders. (Only realized last Fall) Anyway I've always liked female things and am a lot like a female in a lot of ways. So I don't believe I'm confused here or whatever but I want to hear what ya'll think on this? What I also really and I mean REALLY need help on is knowing if when I feel like a male when I'm around people is normal or not? I mean it's REALLY RARE for me to even FEEL/be female around people. I mean I even feel this way when I'm talking to my sis who knows my sitch and how I feel. If it's a defense mechanizem then I don't know why I'm doing it with her. The moment I call someone BANG! Male feeling hello! -_- Really this has me very worried and concerned. I don't want to FEEL this way. (I wish I could cry just a bit right now) I want to feel, look and BE female but thanks to the switching and thanks to me feeling male when I'm around someone (Even on the phone but not online in text form) it's got me so confused, down and depressed. :( Why is this happening? Is this happening to others here? Please! I need help here and sadly, at this point I am unable to see a Therapist or *Shudder* a psychiatrist. If there's a way to control the switching, please tell me. I just don't know what to do... If anyone has any questions, ask and I'll answer them if I can.
Well I think you may be in the right place if that's any consolation :)
Gender can have a heavy social conditioning aspect especially when it comes to little kids, which unfortunately when that whole gender identity sets in. Like in that movie you saw this child knows she's a girl but based on her body everyone tells her she's a boy and that she has to do boy things. That can be pretty harmful psychologically and can cause a lot of repression and barriers for someone. For instance when I was little and a boy I got the whole "boys don't cry", "tough it out", etc. speech whenever I got sad and teary. It got to a point where I was so ashamed of crying and so afraid of being emasculated that I would stop myself from crying whenever it happened. Then for a good while I just couldn't cry even when I wanted to, and I still struggle with that even though I could really care less about losing my masculinity.
I guess I'm suggesting that since you were socialized as a boy maybe your mind just goes there whenever it's time to interact. Our brains are funny that way, they pick something that works and don't like to change it. there's also the possibility that you may be gender-fluid which accounts for moving between three genders, but I can't really speak to that because I don't know what that's like.
also pay attention to what changes when you're in boy-mode compared to by yourself (girl-mode) so you have an idea of the behavior or the feeling you want to change, because cis-girls and boys come in just as many shades as trans-boys and girls so any behaviour which blankets any gender is stereotype. (Though not to say that those behaviours don't exist. only that they may not be as integral as we think)
You're the person who knows you best and is in the best position to help you, take some time and think analyze you're gender switching or how you feel at different moments. A lot of trans* people keep a journal to record and contemplate that kind of stuff at this stage. Sometimes it feels like you're just falling and everything is coming apart but there's always a cloud to fall on; though it seems dark and down now you can only move up if you persevere and love yourself. The only way out of a valley is up the mountain, and all that.
Lotsa lotsa love!
p.s. I don't know where you live or you're situation but you may be able to find a gender clinic or an appropriate therapist willing to see you pro bono or at a reduced rate, just something to think of if you need it :icon_flower:
I couldn't agree more with all of Kia's post.
A gender therapist who is familiar with non-binary is priceless.
A good gender therapist of any kind is better than none.
For some, low dose HRT helps.
But pay attention when you have these fluid moments.
Learn to identify them before they start or when they start.
They can be easy enough to get through when you know yourself well.
Hang around and read through not only the new topics, but read through the older ones,
the back pages, you'll find some very interesting answers to things you haven't thought to ask, yet.
You need to search out your own questions.
Non-binary is so diverse, it would be hard to know what questions are the right ones to ask you.
But by all means, ask the community here.
It is it's primary function and there are a lot of people who can help with the right answers for you.
Ativan
This is great advice from Ativan, and from Kia too.
I can't add to it, except to say that, for me, there are certain situations that trigger responses which are seemingly automatic. Many of these are the byproduct of decades of male socialization.
It is very much like how an athlete responds when confronted with a situation they trained for - almost a reflex. It is difficult to overcome that "programming."
ativan and kia wrote some really good responses. all i can add to that is my own experience.
i'm not sure if it's because of social programming or some odd chameleon behavior, but my gender, both feeling and presentation (in terms of voice and mannerisms), will often switch depending on who i'm talking to. i know that a lot of the female mannerisms i had before were due to programming, but i've been working on shedding all the unnecessary decorations on my facade and becoming more of me. this has resulted in me becoming a whole lot happier about just existing and more comfortable interacting with others. but my gender still switches at times, or hides under my bed refusing to tell me how i'm supposed to act as either gender.
it used to upset me a lot when my gender took a female switch when i was still struggling to find my right place in this forest. thought i was a typical city dweller, supposed to be either or. but that didn't feel too right either. in the end, after accepting both sides and their at times confusing interactions, and doing away with as much fake facade as possible, i've found myself much more comfortable with the occasional switches to my gaab. it doesn't invalidate my identity as not really a woman that i some times really am a woman. but i did have to relax my learned mannerisms a lot before i got to this point where it doesn't matter that i switch in some situations. i have other situations where the switch goes the other way, or where i can be anything depending on factors that i don't yet know.
Ok love! I am not sure how you are going to feel about this but I have used a depression and self questioning cure that has been invented by Doreen Vitrue. She has taken charictoristics of people and classified them and given them names to thier common charactoristics. When these people meet they suddenly feel a feeling of family like they never felt before. As far as her self finding test of charactoristics I fall under "Ascending Spirit". Let me say this if you would please... The purest form of spirit is androgynous and is genderless, the human connected to Spirit lives with a childs heart and will have a hard time living within a left brained world of dominace and heartless actions. You are in fact a true and pure form of example to humanity and it is my wish you join those of us who remember we or more than just human.
Last of all , there is no and has never been a foundation to physics that says we are here and anything physical is real. There has never been a part of our anatomy found that consciousness comes from. Consious frequency can be measured from every cell of the body equally like a field. Why do you have to choose a side of a reality made of illusion? There is no man or woman, you cannot have one without the other inside us. The complexity of me being trans is purely of my physical body and the transition is a must. I myself am an androgynous balance of both sexes. I live it and freak people out being it.... I do not choose a side day tgo day, I am both equally always and look it. I find it hillerious how I am our truth and core and nobody can get it!!!!! LOL
Love you so much, take Doreens test.. :) Love Anela,,, ( Angel in Hawaiian)
Thanks all. I've been doing what all you suggested (except the gender therapist since atm I need to be more independent since I can't take the chance with my Dad. Late start to life in a nut shell) Luckily I've been able to control the gender switching some but it is still hard to do at times, especially if I'm down or whatever the emotion is which best I can describe as, don't care though there are times when I just can't switch my gender. Really if I could do away with this male side of me and in between side and only have my female self left I would. It's like there's two of me at times and at times they combine into one being neither male or female and the result is very hard on me. Makes me want to do what Piccolo from DBZ did and spilt my male and female self into 2 separate bodies. ^_^; (Though this "me" would be the female side of me) Really I just want to be female and I have almost zero attachment to this male body other than curiosity for how it'd feel to do it with this male body. Really thanks for all the help. :)
@angie: I'll send you a PM later. ;)
Quote from: Taka on August 14, 2013, 08:29:37 AM
ativan and kia wrote some really good responses. all i can add to that is my own experience.
i'm not sure if it's because of social programming or some odd chameleon behavior, but my gender, both feeling and presentation (in terms of voice and mannerisms), will often switch depending on who i'm talking to. i know that a lot of the female mannerisms i had before were due to programming, but i've been working on shedding all the unnecessary decorations on my facade and becoming more of me. this has resulted in me becoming a whole lot happier about just existing and more comfortable interacting with others. but my gender still switches at times, or hides under my bed refusing to tell me how i'm supposed to act as either gender.
it used to upset me a lot when my gender took a female switch when i was still struggling to find my right place in this forest. thought i was a typical city dweller, supposed to be either or. but that didn't feel too right either. in the end, after accepting both sides and their at times confusing interactions, and doing away with as much fake facade as possible, i've found myself much more comfortable with the occasional switches to my gaab. it doesn't invalidate my identity as not really a woman that i some times really am a woman. but i did have to relax my learned mannerisms a lot before i got to this point where it doesn't matter that i switch in some situations. i have other situations where the switch goes the other way, or where i can be anything depending on factors that i don't yet know.
I've noticed at times it really is because of a defense mechanism where as other times (I think mainly by myself) it isn't a defense mechanism but I don't like feeling male or in between but especially not male. I don't feel happy and it bugs me when that happens. Feeling female feels SOO much better and makes me happy. I at this point don't want to accept or be male at all or in between. I just want to be female. So while I one day could become like you and accept both sides, I REALLY hope that never happens and that I can one day have a female body and a female voice. Me being female just feels right and more natural for me. :) I still am glad you told me your story so thank you and hope my words didn't offend you in any way and if they did, sorry. Really though I hope to be on estrogen and I "hope" it does away with this male side and in between side. I don't know if it's because of my testosterone lv increasing and matching the estrogen lv or if it's really my "soul" that makes me switch genders but I do know my testosterone is within range but still close to low and either way I prefer to be a girl.
You know, in a way, genderfluidity can be a defense mechanism. How our identities deal with things might be entirely different. I know my male side can take the abuse and bounce back. Not so much my female side. Too easily hurt.
it might be a defense mechanism for some. i don't know what it is for me. different people have different attributes to their "male" and "female" sides. some people feel like they have a use for both sides, others would gladly do away with one to be confident with the other. if switching to one side is uncomfortable even after accepting it as a(n at least current) part of you, i'd think chances are hight that you're binary.
my prickly, obstinate, fight-to-the-death etc attributes are stronger in my female side. my female side is also vengeful and sadistic and hates a lot. it would never submit to anyone, unless it's a matter of life and death and life seems more appealing. it's a strong fighter that would conquer any obstacles in a very loud way. but it is also very vulnerable and cares too much about other people's opinions, despite never heeding them, is loving and caring but doesn't know how to show it. what a contradictory person...
and my male side? it's more balanced, it gets angry in a different way, would rather just beat up than torture to death, loves playing with kids, has its insecurities, would rather have a peaceful life than fight on the barricades, lets things slide more easily, would prefer being on top but can handle being quite some steps below, is a silent fighter that gets where he wants to be without making too much fuss in the process.
both sides have their strengths and weaknesses. i think i could handle being just one of them, but i'd miss the other side a lot. maybe starting a partial transition will take me all the way, i can't know before trying. but for just as long as i've suspected or known that i'm trans, i've also been unable to imagine a life where i can't be a woman when i want to. and really don't want to never get a chance to be a man. the only problem i see with being both or switching between them, is that people might not get it if i one day tell them to not treat me like a woman just to tell them the next day that i expect them to take me for one.
If I have to define things as female and male for me (I find this somewhat hard to separate), there are distinctions.
My male side takes and absorbs abuse. The female comes out as revenge in the defensive role.
Vengefulness is decidedly female and very ruthless.
She is ruthless and unforgiving, capable of inflicting physical damage and basking in the satisfaction of domination.
Do not piss off the 'bitch' with the weapon. Don't make the male feel bad, she doesn't like it.
The male is nurturing by nature, willing to compromise and finds ways of doing so.
The male is very childlike and looks at the world with very old eyes, but those of a child, nonetheless.
He's the one who plays with the children, understands the games they play.
The female is a force to be dealt with. She defends her children and the helpless without compromise.
The male bargains, the female takes. The male settles disputes, the female ends disputes her way.
For the most part, from a viewpoint of stereotypical, the roles are mostly switched.
But not necessarily so. They are so close that they intertwine and deal with situations by rapidly switching or blending.
This is the fluidity that I feel most of the time.
There was a time of attempted hypermasculinity that failed miserably.
While actually engaged in the activity, it was apparent that I was feeling more female.
While planning and setting the stage, so to speak, I was feeling very male as I wished to be.
But the execution, the actual success or failure of the activity was predominantly female in how I felt.
I was very good at what I did.
It set the stage for later years as the approach I would find in resolving situations where I predominated.
The few people who are aware of this in me understand which 'side' of me is predominant at a given moment.
I have been exploring this through memories that have come to light recently, with my therapist.
It's a series of events that are violent in nature.
They seem to have determined how my rage and anger come to the surface.
Moving through life's situations can be seen as mostly male, while the need for defense of any kind seems to be mostly female.
The male explains and analyzes, the female executes the actions when strength of intellectual or physical is needed.
Even trying to explain this has elements of both, as it is a strain to do.
It's a dark path that i wander in trying to find myself at times.
The male doesn't like it, the female is at home there.
She understands the beauty of it, despite the nature of it.
The male is forever wanting the security of being in the light of others.
He looks forward to coming out of the shadow, holding the hand of the female.
Ativan
Thanks. I really enjoyed reading your story about both your male and female sides. :) Made me realize I don't think I can write down how mine feels when I switch other than male=not as happy, and sometimes feels fake. (Due to defense mechanism) Maybe not as caring (Not sure) and female= more caring, more happy and feels right. I might be wrong but I think for the most part both my male and female sides are very much the same other than what I listed but I can do without the male side.
the male side might be a persona you created in order to meet other people's expectations, to survive in a world where an xy female doesn't have the natural place that she should. and maybe he surfaces out of a defensive mechanism that demands safety is always placed first.
my sides seem to me much more like ativan describes them. it's interesting how they are opposite of the stereotypes, but when i think about the traditional ways of seeing the two genders, it's a perfect fit, really. my grandfather was the type of man that ativan describes, that i strive to be, what i think is natural and good for a man to be. the female is one that you find in asian ghost stories, arabian stories, everywhere in the world, really. in nature as well, the female with cubs is the most vicious creature you can come by. attack is the best defense by her logic.
and when looking at a traditional society, the man and woman have very different roles. the traditional politician wasn't someone who follows their party's values blindly, it was a man who would try to reach and agreement, and consensus was his goal. the woman on the other hand controls the working of society, keeps the family together, tells her man what and how to think, she is the owner of the house. and the old grandma can tell even the worst criminal to sit down and stay quiet, and he will do so. when a wrong needs to be righted, it's the women who work together to make it happen. they pull invisible threads, while men work in the open. i find it quite interesting when i can conclude, and know that most in my community will agree with me on it, that there are certain things that only an (older) woman can do.
Indeed.
Hi Shana-Chan,
Ok first I'd just like to say I am biologically female but have always felt "different". I am 43 years old now and I am still trying to piece together "who I am". The nearest labels I can find are bi gender, two spirited, androgynous. If you look at the gender scale from very girly to very masculine, I am smack in the middle. I am the feminine guy but the boyish (not burly butch) woman. I don't feel like I'm any gender some days, then I feel more boyish and sometimes I need to be female (but always feel awkward if I'm wearing very fem clothes and jewellery ). I carried all this inside of me until I had a crisis when I was 38. I always questioned my sexuality and that was the first thing I tried to address. I came up with "bisexual". Then the gender issue raised its head for me. I had always felt "the boy". I had no idea back then when I was 20 of the issues going on inside of me. Back then there was no internet and no access to information. I just thought I was abnormal. I carried on through life and accepted the society norms. I must say though that a couple of weeks after my wedding, I went out, got my lovely long, curly hair cut very short and bought a suit LOL. I rebelled against everything girly. I've had health issues to deal with too and they have kind of taken over the gender/sexuality issues and still do. I try to deal with it all using humour, lots of humour. I found myself in a bisexual women's forum five years ago and I wondered why I never felt "right" in there. Once I realised I felt more like a guy I realised why!!. However, a transition to a guy wouldn't help me at all. I am happy where I am in life. I am a mum to a grown up son. Even without my family I still don't think I'd transition to a guy because I would greatly miss my feminine aspects!! This is why I feel bi gender or two spirited. (I'm still trying to work it out). If I could say I'm NO gender then that would be perfect!!!!
So as I read "Angie July"'s reply I must say this is also what I believe. I believe that my soul has to experience what it is like to be female bodied in this incarnation. I believe my soul is more masculine than feminine. (but very very fem lol) Or is it that my last incarnations were male and I still feel that masculinity? I have no idea. I'm still trying to get my head around it all! ???
It's difficult trying to work it all out isn't it?
I've even assigned a name to my masculine side. I joke around alot to get through it all. ;D
Big hugs xx A xx
i don't believe in reincarnation, so i can't say much about the soul... but what i do know is that there are more than just two or three genders, or combinations, and lack of gender is also a possibility.
if you happen to be somewhere between neither and both, the need to be/appear more masculine might be no more than a reaction to having been/acted too feminine for a while. balancing things isn't easy at all, and at least in this little corner of the forums, we seem to find very different solutions to the gender related aspects of life.
trans or not? well, you are what you are. it's as simple as that (or complicated if there is no commonly accepted label for it, like "man" or "woman")
transition or not? that's up to you. i'm planning to do that, whenever i get the chance. not right now at least. maybe hormone therapy if i can get it. but not quite yet, it's not the right time now. many binary people will find my decision hard to understand, but ultimately it's my life and not theirs.
Male and female are nothing more than characteristics.
Being binary is a conscious feeling of strongly having characteristics of one or the other.
Cis people are predominant in having their main characteristics match their birth sex.
Transsexuals, for the most part, are the opposite. This doesn't always apply so easily.
Combinations of characteristics fall into a whole different area, when there is a lot of overlap in them.
Binary can have a spectrum, where non-binary doesn't. There can be overlap even in this.
It's solely dependent on the combinations that may be set for the most part or move around fluidly.
There can be predominant characteristics of male or female, there can be almost none.
Even among Cis people, there are a lot of combinations.
Apparent variations are masculine or feminine characteristics at levels that they accept as a part of normal.
Some strong variations deal with orientation. Less so with gender.
For *trans people, the stronger variations deal more with gender and then orientation.
There are, of course, different variations on all of that.
Binary and non-binary can overlap. It's not as fuzzy or wibbly-wobbly as some feel.
That's where figuring out how your combinations of all of the above come into play.
The point I'm trying to make about the above, is that there may be a reason for that.
Everyone has feelings of self. Some call it your soul.
There are a lot of variations on that theme in religions.
Many people are raised with that idea, as it is a predominantly accepted term and idea for self.
Many people believe there is a separation of self, or soul, with their physical self. Why not?
There are as many variations and ideas about that as there are about gender.
I don't believe there is anything about self, that is truly about gender.
This feeling of self can at times, I suppose, have a sensation of gender, but I don't really think it has anything to do with it.
The separation of the two can leave a person feeling genderless.
Which would seem to me that the idea of self is more predominant than gender.
Trying to combine the two could leave a person having those feelings of gender being fuzzy.
I think this could be a part of some of the internal battles we feel at times.
Just like everything else, it can play into the combinations with ease. Or not.
Another facet of life. A religious, of any kind, person could feel at ease with this.
But I honestly don't think one is dependent on the other.
Whereas gender, gender roles, and orientation, are very much so.
Like Taka mentions, balancing things isn't easy at all.
We do have our own individual solutions to finding balance.
I find it easier to leave it out of the equation.
One doesn't feel like it is dependent on the other.
My self or soul could have been here before, it might be here after.
It may or may not be a part of reality.
It's a whole discussion in itself.
There is a section about religion in the forum, I don't go there myself.
Perhaps we need a topic with a stickie in the Androgyne section.
I don't know, but I'd bet that we have, as non-binaries, a different view about this as well.
Ativan
It is so nice to find a place where there are educated people on the subject of gender. I feel I am going to learn a lot here and be able to join in some very interesting conversations.
Five years ago I was at a crisis point in my life trying to figure myself out. If I had only come here I may have got the help to at least understand myself better. :)