ive heard of phytoestrogens there natural estrogen that exists in certain foods. some foods have quite a lot in them such as flax seed and soy has anyone heard of anyone using a phytoestrogen high diet as a supplement to actual medical hrt
additionally are there any over the counter medications anyone has heard of containing estrogen that have a desired alternative effect and work instead of or in conjuction with hrt
A phytoestrogen rich diet will actually detract from traditional HRT, as the phytoestrogens, and the pharmaceutical estrogens will compete for receptors.
That said, my entire HRT regimen is all herbal, so it is possible.....
The difference is the same as a Ferrari versus a pogo stick. To be honest they are a waste. See a medic and get proper treatment.
Quote from: Joules on August 10, 2013, 10:57:19 AM
I've heard the "dud" phytoestrogens can stay in your system for many months and neutralize any chance you might have of a decent HRT response.
Oh I don't know about that I was taking phytoestrogens for six months before starting hrt. While I believe now I was throwing my money away on them but I don't think it has hurt my chances with my response to hrt. ;)
what about on there own and not in regards to regular hrt treatment what sort of results have people seen from them.
You will get very little compared to proper HRT. On HRT I had obvious effects in days, body changes in a few weeks and now I'm totally remodelled physically and mentally, and safely.
Why bother with playing?
Get the job done correctly
well as far as i know the only treatment i know involves a saringe the problem with that is almost everytime i have an injection i have a mass panic attack in fact 3 times its caused me to have a heart attack doctors now have to put me under with gas just for a blood test so you can see my issue
Quote from: lucy aylett on August 10, 2013, 12:32:52 PM
what about on there own and not in regards to regular hrt treatment what sort of results have people seen from them.
I took them on and off since I was twenty and yes you can get some results. But really with the amount of doses required and the money involved you really better off with traditional hrt. Yes I did have some breast growth over the years but really it was nothing to get all excited about.
The truth is if I could do this all over again I would have started hrt instead of the herbal. The only reason I was taking the herbals was because I was too afraid to go discuss this with a therapist then. It is a whole lot cheaper and safer to just go with normal hrt. You will get far better results
Quote from: lucy aylett on August 10, 2013, 12:46:46 PM
well as far as i know the only treatment i know involves a saringe the problem with that is almost everytime i have an injection i have a mass panic attack in fact 3 times its caused me to have a heart attack doctors now have to put me under with gas just for a blood test so you can see my issue
hrt does come in pills now you will have to have blood drawn for the blood tests but that's once every couple of months.
Quote from: lucy aylett on August 10, 2013, 12:46:46 PM
well as far as i know the only treatment i know involves a saringe the problem with that is almost everytime i have an injection i have a mass panic attack in fact 3 times its caused me to have a heart attack doctors now have to put me under with gas just for a blood test so you can see my issue
This is totally incorrect, I have no injections and I suggest you see a gender therapist who can explain the real treatment protocols available .
You are risking destroying your health on poor information.
If you have had a heart attack then it is even more critical that you are under supervised care.
Over dramatising the situation won't help either!
Calm down and get good advice rather than being misinformed.
Cindy
is that really true if so thats the single best news i have had well ever i think when it comes to the option will the doctor inform you of this or do you need to enquire
Just get some legit meds, they're cheaper and much more potent.
Edited for improper language.
One of my girlfriends took these natural meds for a few years before she was able to get real hormones. Her opinion is that she feels like they worked, but never noticed anything in particular. And she took these, I believe, prior to when she was 18. I'm doubtful these will do much for you. If you are looking for hormones, there are better ways.
I'm terrified of injections myself, so I go the pill route. It's been working for me. Let me know if you have any other questions.
i do indeed intend to use tradional hrt. ive been tiptoeing around the subject in my own mind for two reasons one is my fear of needles the other is my family situation. i realise that even if i used some form of alternative the changes would evidently become noticeable and even though my mothers side of the family would be fine with whichever decision i make my dad and his side would disown me and completely hate me. i realise this makes him not a great father and i should do whats right for me and my mental wellbeing but he is my dad after all and i love him and dont want him to hate me
Lucy, here is a link to our Wiki on estrogen. You can see it comes in pill, patch, gel, and the dreaded injections and implants. You should be able to find a solution that works for you. Hugs, Devlyn
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Estrogen
Honey,
Once you are on hormones your body changes. I cannot pass as a guy. I'm 38b, 30 waist, 36 hips. I can't fool anyone. If you go on hormones they will feminise you.
Seek the help of a gender therapist. Your problems are not the hormones and that is why we need therapists to help.
Quote from: lucy aylett on August 10, 2013, 01:13:46 PM
i do indeed intend to use tradional hrt. ive been tiptoeing around the subject in my own mind for two reasons one is my fear of needles the other is my family situation. i realise that even if i used some form of alternative the changes would evidently become noticeable and even though my mothers side of the family would be fine with whichever decision i make my dad and his side would disown me and completely hate me. i realise this makes him not a great father and i should do whats right for me and my mental wellbeing but he is my dad after all and i love him and dont want him to hate me
My family was also my biggest roadblock. I never wanted to let them down. In a way, I was always my familys pride and joy being the only "boy". Having accomplished quite some feats at my young age, despite recent setbacks, my family always believed that I'd go far in life. Well, I still will, but it's not the same dream they had. It's understandable that parents have expectations and hopes for their children; however, it's not our responsibility to live their dreams. We have our own life to accomplish and go through. Yes, coming out was hard and will continue to be, but I am so happy that I am moving forward. For the first time in years, I feel like I am somewhat free. I'm no longer going to be bound by others and it is an amazing and liberating feeling. Most families will come around in time. The progress I have made with my mother is slow but very nice. To finally be able to hug her again and tell her I love her has been one of the greatest gifts I could ever have. Time heals wounds and families that are strong will stay together. It's hard, but there is faith. I'm sorry to ramble, but your post touched me and reminded me of something I would have said in the past. I wanted to share that it can and will get better.
Quote from: lucy aylett on August 10, 2013, 09:49:32 AM
ive heard of phytoestrogens there natural estrogen that exists in certain foods. some foods have quite a lot in them such as flax seed and soy has anyone heard of anyone using a phytoestrogen high diet as a supplement to actual medical hrt
additionally are there any over the counter medications anyone has heard of containing estrogen that have a desired alternative effect and work instead of or in conjuction with hrt
Hi, Lucy - here is what the noted endocrinologist, Dr. John O'Dea of Los Angeles, wrote about phytoestrogens:
Plants produce weak phytoestrogens with generally defeminizing influences that have no role to play in the feminization of transsexuals. Plants like the wild yam do not produces significant feminizing estrogens, although they do produce plant hormones capable of being converted synthetically into estrogens and progestins.Though they may have some utility, a cost/benefit analysis will suggest that using bioidentical hormones is a much better way to go. Hope this helps.
Edit: There are several methods to deliver estrogen to your system, besides injections; pills, patches, creams/lotions, implants (once every 3 to six months).
I'm confused about the difference between phytoestrogens and bio identical estrogens. I understand that phytoestrogens are plant based. On a website from an endo I was looking at it says they use bio identical estrogens that are derived from yams. Maybe it's common but I was a little surprised to see an endo using estrogens from yams.
This might help, Rosa:
Bioidentical Hormones Defined
In medicine and physiology, a "bioidentical" compound (e.g. hormones) is a laboratory-synthesized molecule whose structure is identical to a compound that the human body produces naturally. Conversely, "non-bioidentical" compounds are those molecules that, whether made in a lab or extracted directly from a non-human organism, function like human body compounds but have a different molecular structure.
How Are Bioidentical Compounds Made?
Human estrogen and progesterone are based on a simple four-ring carbon skeleton that are common across both the plant and animal kingdom. Compounds found naturally in yams and soybeans have a specific molecular structure that allow scientists to easily convert these plant compounds into molecules that are bioidentical to forms of estrogen and progesterone produced by human cells. Even though they are produced in a lab, these plant-derived compounds are still bioidentical.
Read more: http://www.ehow.com/about_5041275_definition-bioidentical.html#ixzz2bbZcQEbx
does that mean because soy estrogen is easy to manipulate into bioindentical estrogen that it would infact result in a positive affect the reason i ask is i drink a crazy amount of flavoured soy milk coz its lovely and better for me. so am i infact getting benificial hormones instead of ones that would infact impare tradional hrt
Quote from: lucy aylett on August 10, 2013, 04:54:44 PM
does that mean because soy estrogen is easy to manipulate into bioindentical estrogen that it would infact result in a positive affect the reason i ask is i drink a crazy amount of flavoured soy milk coz its lovely and better for me. so am i infact getting benificial hormones instead of ones that would infact impare tradional hrt
Your body does not synthesize the soy phytoestrogens the way a lab would. It digests them. What you are getting is not 17-besta estradiol in human form.
Proponents will point out:
Phytoestrogens bind to estrogen receptors in the body. In the case of decreased levels of estrogen, such as during menopause, this can relieve symptoms caused by the lack of estrogen. By tricking the body into thinking estrogen is present, phytoestrogens may reduce the frequency and severity of hot flashes and night sweats. Studies utilizing soy foods that contain the phytoestrogen isoflavone found that eating soy can reduce the number of hot flashes by 10 to 20 percent, according to the Linus Pauling Institute. Flaxseeds also contain phytoestrogens and a study reported by the Massachusetts General Hospital Center for Women's Health reveals that ingesting 40 grams of crushed flaxseeds per day for six weeks may reduce hot flashes by 50 percent. Women in menopause also experience an increase in LDL cholesterol levels, the type of cholesterol that increases the risk for heart disease. Eating foods containing phytoestrogens can help keep cholesterol levels down.Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/392041-phytoestrogens-menopause/#ixzz2bbdvqbij
Presumably you want to initiate feminization. If that is the case, phytoestrogens won't help much.
tbh iniatilising feminisation isnt a massive issue though some of this has to do with me having a bit of fat on me i have massive natural breats for a guy i'm a D cup, i have abnormally large hips which gives me a tidy hourglass shape all i was wondering is i have had a good look at my diet and realised most of the foods i eat normally have high levels of phytoestrogens in them is this going to help or hinder me when i go on hrt
So does this mean that bio-identical estrogen made from plants is just as good as estrogen not made from plants? I guess I was under the impression that the former were still in the herb category.
Quote from: Joules on August 10, 2013, 10:57:19 AM
Yes, the phytoestrogens work, but they are only 1/1000 as effective as bioidentical hormones.
That's not entirely true. Some phytoestrogens are 1/1000th the potency of bioidentical estrogens, but others are much stronger than that. One phytoestrogen in particular, deoxymiroestrol is two and a half times more potent than estradiol.
It all depends on what plants you're using.
Flax, black cohosh, red clover, etc. probably won't do much, but there are phytoestrogens that can rival and even surpass the effectiveness of traditional pharmaceutical hormones.
Quote from: Joules on August 10, 2013, 07:47:06 PM
That may be true Oriah, but by having a mixture of potency, you run the risk of clogging your receptors with the low potency molecules. A chemically processed batch of phytoestrogens has the necessary composition to give consistent results.
not everyone can figure out the right way to do it and get results, but I use nothing but plants for hrt and the results are there. I swallow less than a tablespoon of powdered herb per day, and have curves and a C-cup.
It CAN work. It may not be easy to figure out what to take and what dose you need, but it WILL work if done properly
ooh people are getting snappy. anyway people have talked about phytoestrogens. lets talk more about bioidentical hormones made in a lab. is there anything out there thats not perscription which is actually built for supplying estrogen for the purposes of hrt that isn't built for something else
I'm going to say 2 things here, that people frequently and frustratingly get wrong and perpetuate that ignorance to others.
1. Chemistry is not cooking. The chemical structure of a given molecule is what it is, if it is an estradiol molecule, the same structure, optical rotation, etc, as the one the human body produces, then the body CAN NOT tell the difference. The body can't magically 'see' the history of how the molecule was synthesized, it can't tell if it's natural or not, it simply is what it is.
Some products contain a molecule that is slightly different from what the human body produces, this can matter a lot or virtually not at all.
It won't matter much provided the chemical, while not the same as estradiol, will be metabolized by the body into estradiol (estradiol valerate for example), it might matter a lot more in the case of say for example, ethylestradiol, which has a much sketchier safety history and is significantly more potent by mass.
2. There is no such thing as natural.
I'll say that again, there is NO SUCH THING as natural, by which I mean there is no clear and self evident line that can be drawn between what is natural and what is not, making it a very arbitrary and misleading term. I bring this up because I hear it all the time about "natural is better" regarding HRT and almost everything. 'Natural' is you not going through transition at all, 'natural' would be so harsh to transpeople that I don't feel comfortable describing it. So quit worrying about 'natural' or 'artificial', in the broad sense, it's ridiculous to claim any kind of transition as 'natural', plant estrogens or not. And it's chemically ridiculous to worry about 'where' a chemical came from, all that matters is what it 'is'.
So if bio identical hormones are made from plants how is the regular estradiol B made?
Quote from: Rosa on August 11, 2013, 12:16:20 PM
So if bio identical hormones are made from plants how is the regular estradiol B made?
It's all marketing; plain estradiol is as close as it gets without adding valeric acid or other ways of lengthening the chemical chain so the liver processes it multiple times.
we all know self medication is dangerous and should not be tried but is there anything you can take or add to your diet which will aid hrt and give more promising results
Quote from: Rosa on August 11, 2013, 12:16:20 PM
So if bio identical hormones are made from plants how is the regular estradiol B made?
Bio identical means simply that the molecule is identical to that found in nature.. A bio identical can come from any source - as long is it the same molecule..
I know what not to do: drink milk. Never drink milk. Limit your intake. It does not have "female hormones" in it is highly androgenic. Everytime I drink milk I break out. Bad. It's horrid as I love ice cream but I really feel like there isn't enough info out there that milk is bad for HRT.
I have no idea whether or not plant estrogens work but I am inclined to believe they have some effect as everyone who has taken them has said it did something, though not much. But other people have had results. I think for them to work, you would need to halt T production. But I really know nothing and I think to each their own.
Medical HRT is your best bet. I can tell you it works for a fact.
well all estrogen high foods are all my favorites so while i go through the madness that is the nhs if will continue to eat these foods and see what happens
Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 12, 2013, 01:45:58 PM
I know what not to do: drink milk. Never drink milk. Limit your intake. It does not have "female hormones" in it is highly androgenic. Everytime I drink milk I break out. Bad. It's horrid as I love ice cream but I really feel like there isn't enough info out there that milk is bad for HRT.
Can you provide some evidence to support this? As most of the research and studies I'm looking say just the opposite..
Hmmm... So it has been mentioned that plant products like soy are high in phytoestrogens. That I know. But now that I think about it, I'm worried that my current diet may interfere with my Hormone Replacement Therapy. You see... As a "vegetarian / vegan," I eat a lot of soy-based products. My body unfortunately can't really process animal proteins and fats, so I found out that a veggie-based diet was good and didn't bother me. Yet now that I think about... It may cause issues... Sigh... I guess I won't know until it is time for me to start.
Quote from: Joules on August 13, 2013, 02:49:45 PM
Sanceria, As I understand it, just simply eating foods high in phytoestrogens aren't a problem. Estrogen, and hormones in general, which are eaten are simply digested, they never make it into the bloodstream.
HRT relies on several different application methods, all of which result in a direct transfer of Estrogen into the bloodstream. Injections and implants are direct obviously, creams and patches for transdermal, sublingual for trans-sinus membrane absorption.
You're wrong. If swallowed hormones didn't make it to the bloodstream, there would be no such thing as oral contraceptives.
About 10% of a swallowed dose of hormone makes it into the bloodstream after digestion
Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on August 13, 2013, 02:05:41 AM
Can you provide some evidence to support this? As most of the research and studies I'm looking say just the opposite..
Why yes I can provide evidence for my hypothesis. Here it is:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0625.2009.00924.x/pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2715202/'
Choice quote:
The evidence assembled here suggests that dairy-sourced hormones, not being subject to any innate feedback inhibition, may be the source of the androgenic and mitogenic progestins that drive acne, prostate and breast cancer. This is the most promising unitary hypothesis available to explain the etiology of diverse diseases that blemish, scar, shorten and take the lives of millions.
It also thought that dairy intake stimulates 5-aR and DHT and androgen recpetors. It is highly androgenic and as such shouldn't be touched with a 10 foot pole by MTF transsexuals. I know from my own experience if I consume too much dairy I break out. I'm sure a little is okay but why chance it?
Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 13, 2013, 05:26:01 PM
Why yes I can provide evidence for my hypothesis. Here it is:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0625.2009.00924.x/pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2715202/'
Choice quote:
The evidence assembled here suggests that dairy-sourced hormones, not being subject to any innate feedback inhibition, may be the source of the androgenic and mitogenic progestins that drive acne, prostate and breast cancer. This is the most promising unitary hypothesis available to explain the etiology of diverse diseases that blemish, scar, shorten and take the lives of millions.
It also thought that dairy intake stimulates 5-aR and DHT and androgen recpetors. It is highly androgenic and as such shouldn't be touched with a 10 foot pole by MTF transsexuals. I know from my own experience if I consume too much dairy I break out. I'm sure a little is okay but why chance it?
I'm going to happily keep drinking my cow's milk.. Why? With a T level that it so close to zero as to make no odds, I don't think it's really going to cause me any problems..
Good. I'm glad that it won't be an issue. And yeah, I'm considering either the implant or injection route, or maybe the patch, because I have a hard enough time remembering to take my prescription meds, let alone having to worry about hormones. But hey, a girl's got to do what a girl's got to do. You know... I've been wondering why they can't synthesize an implant that contains all of the hormones and the anti-androgen in one. I mean it makes sense. Also, I know this may sound counterproductive, but isn't the reason why the libido goes downhill is because that is dependent on testosterone even in females? So it would make sense for them to give a very small dosage of that, too. But then again... It is also said that a large portion of the libido is in the brain. Guess it depends on your state of mind. Then again, when you have someone kissing you, it gets anyone's motors revving, lol.
whats really interesting me is with the advancements in DNA manipulation and our new ability to grow ant part of the human body the possibility of true non cosmetic sexual reasignment will likely come to pass within our lifetime.
Quote from: lucy aylett on August 14, 2013, 12:39:52 AM
whats really interesting me is with the advancements in DNA manipulation and our new ability to grow ant part of the human body the possibility of true non cosmetic sexual reasignment will likely come to pass within our lifetime.
There is the problem of rejection. That and we will be the last people that get help. I wouldn't wait for this that's for sure.
Joanna you could just be lactose intolerant?
Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 14, 2013, 01:40:45 AM
There is the problem of rejection. That and we will be the last people that get help. I wouldn't wait for this that's for sure.
there is no rejection issues because body parts are grown from the DNA of the person you plan to use the body part with. and when it comes to DNA manipulation scientist are going mad for the chance to mess with things like gender coz its 1 of the biggest parts of dna
Quote from: Bardoux on August 14, 2013, 03:37:07 AM
Joanna you could just be lactose intolerant?
I'm not lactose intolerant. It's a fact that milk stimulates androgen receptors. I started looking it up because I noticed after every time I drank milk I would break out. Now if you enjoy milk, keep drinking it. It will prolly have zero effect if it has not before. But with me I know it does something. I'm talking a lot of milk though not a glass or two.
Quote from: lucy aylett on August 14, 2013, 04:56:10 AM
there is no rejection issues because body parts are grown from the DNA of the person you plan to use the body part with. and when it comes to DNA manipulation scientist are going mad for the chance to mess with things like gender coz its 1 of the biggest parts of dna
I think the focus is on heart transplants not growing uteruses for MTFs. If you are waiting for this you are going to be waiting a long time. And even then you are going to need 10s of millions of dollars. Why not just start regular HRT now? I simply can't wait for things like this personally, no matter how nice they sound.
i didn't say anything about waiting for it i expressed a interest in the way the technology would allow trans people to be who they REALLY are. moneys not the issue i have access to that kind of funds what would be the problem with this technology is the restrictions placed on it
I meant if you would have a uterus and ovaries implanted in you, why not just transition now with traditional HRT, which would be much safer?
i am doing the normal way. the whole point of the thread i created was to discuss alternatives not just for me but for newcomers too who are interested about it
Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 13, 2013, 05:26:01 PM
Why yes I can provide evidence for my hypothesis. Here it is:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0625.2009.00924.x/pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2715202/'
Choice quote:
The evidence assembled here suggests that dairy-sourced hormones, not being subject to any innate feedback inhibition, may be the source of the androgenic and mitogenic progestins that drive acne, prostate and breast cancer. This is the most promising unitary hypothesis available to explain the etiology of diverse diseases that blemish, scar, shorten and take the lives of millions.
It also thought that dairy intake stimulates 5-aR and DHT and androgen recpetors. It is highly androgenic and as such shouldn't be touched with a 10 foot pole by MTF transsexuals. I know from my own experience if I consume too much dairy I break out. I'm sure a little is okay but why chance it?
It is not evidence to a hypothesis to simply quote the same, more detailed hypothesis given by someone else. (The first article)
It is a profound disservice to oversimplify this by simply saying "milk is androgenic". Nobody here is going to sit you down and make you drink milk, but please try to refrain from being alarmist. I simply don't think the articles you posted are anything like the smoking gun you treat them as.
The first isn't evidence of anything nor does it particularly claim itself to be. I fail to see how the second directly implies "milk is androgenic in relation to human sexual characteristics" and that proposition is fairly unsupported by the overwhelming evidence.
Most likely milk like other aspects of diet do indeed have significant (from an endocrinological perspective) hormonal influences, but that is a long way from claiming the kind of dramatic conclusions you propose.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on August 15, 2013, 06:18:40 AM
It is not evidence to a hypothesis to simply quote the same, more detailed hypothesis given by someone else. (The first article)
It is a profound disservice to oversimplify this by simply saying "milk is androgenic". Nobody here is going to sit you down and make you drink milk, but please try to refrain from being alarmist. I simply don't think the articles you posted are anything like the smoking gun you treat them as.
The first isn't evidence of anything nor does it particularly claim itself to be. I fail to see how the second directly implies "milk is androgenic in relation to human sexual characteristics" and that proposition is fairly unsupported by the overwhelming evidence.
Most likely milk like other aspects of diet do indeed have significant (from an endocrinological perspective) hormonal influences, but that is a long way from claiming the kind of dramatic conclusions you propose.
Most of the studies, other research and anecdotal evidence I've read actually suggests that cow's milk will lower tesosterone and increase estrogens and progestins.
Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on August 15, 2013, 07:35:28 AM
Most of the studies, other research and anecdotal evidence I've read actually suggests that cow's milk will lower tesosterone and increase estrogens and progestins.
That is what I thought too kelly. In fact my one friend used to tell me to stop drinking milk all the time a couple years ago as I had 36 A/small Bs pre-HRT and a female shape, though it wasn't that female just a bit of a round butt. But he thought the reason I looked like that was from the estrogen in milk. I read that the estrogen in milk from farmers fattening them up with hormones is not bilogically active estrogen so it wouldn't do anything.
I don't think anyone on HRT has much to worry about in that milk prolly won't affect HRT at all. But for a pre-HRT teenager or someone in their early 20s, I think the milk could cause some maculization that may not have occured without it. What I do know is that when I drink milk I get acne. In fact i have a zit not and I think that is what caused it. Several years ago I had a major drinking problem and I stopped but still went to the bars but drank milk instead. A a month later I got the worst acne I have ever had and it really hirt my face. I have pock marks now that I wouldn't have had otherwise. I'm going to get my face laser resurfaced to get rid of them. They're really shallow but I am certain it is the milk. I don't know if milk causes any masculinzation and it prolly doesn't but it does cause acne. That is a pretty established fact. That what the studies are related too. If you go on and PCOS or acne forum for women you will see they all tell each other to not drink milk. It is pretty well known in these online communities.
I know it flies in the face of what we think, or thought, we knew but it seems very believable to me. I just think why chance it? I am talking lots of milk and ice cream though. Not a glass a day. You are on CPA so you have nothing to worry about but it could affect other people, especially pre-HRT young trans girls. I think people should know this. People can decide for themselves but knowledge is power. I'm not even going to answer the other poster as she thinks smoking is fine. I hate arguing. But if you don't ever get acne Kelly, then no worries for you.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on August 15, 2013, 06:18:40 AM
It is not evidence to a hypothesis to simply quote the same, more detailed hypothesis given by someone else. (The first article)
Uh, excuse me? it is called being creative when writing. Milk is androgenic. It is a fact and can not be disputed. Oh wait, you don't even believe smoking is bad for HRT in any way. 'nuff said. BTW, providing knowledge to people is never a disservice. Who are you to try to silence me because that is obviously your intention. Attack my argument not me. You will get more bees with honey, sweetie. Try being nice for a change. Is it that hard? REALLY.
BTW, they are scientists with documented evidence. You are some random forum poster who comes on here and makes fun of people all the time. How rude. UGH.
EDIT: How about if I'm so wrong, someone post a study showing milk is estrogenic. MYTHs are not FACTS.
There's a lot of food substances that have effects that mimic hormones. Micromanaging hormones down to the food level isn't going to get things done faster than simply eating a quality diet.
Since we can't seem to play nice about this without a lot of virtual testosterone this is locked.