When i enter a situation in my more natural state, in a male mindset, I am confident and talkative. I can always make people laugh and tend to influence the group decision. But as a female, or shall I say in a female mindset, i am very quiet and shy. I feel submissive and impressionable. I don't think I have a mental disorder, multiple personalities or anything like that, but I worry that if I detail this to anyone, they will assume that. Does anyone else feel this way? I see myself as two spirited, third gender and this seems perfectly normal to me...
I can relate to that 100%, except I am less sure about not having multiple personalities. There are actually a lot of people who live relatively happy lives being someone with multiple personalities, it doesn't always have to come with trauma or have to be something that ruins your life. Not trying to convince you that you do have multiple personalities, just trying to kill the negative stigma with it.
You're right - there is a lot of stigma surrounding so called mental disorder. Do you have just a male and a female persona, per se, or more?
I also seem to have one that's in between. Or sometimes I see it as agender.
interesting...
i'm very dominant as a woman, except when i'm shy, depends on the situation. as a man, i don't really know. nothing special, i think.
I am bigendered, and it seems situational.
Some things really set off my male; other things tug at my female.
Opposite for me. As a male (now long in the past) I was shy and cautious. As a female I am much more outgoing and not as self-conscious.
Alpha Non-Binary. Except when I'm not.
Then I'm just Non-Binary nice person. Except when I'm not.
Then I'm just a total ass to be around. Except when I'm not around.
Which was most of my life. Except where I was.
Which was there. Except I'm not always sure about where there was sometimes.
But I'm pretty sure it was Alpha something. Or not.
Anxiety has it's own thoughts about it. Which is me.
Not which one, but anxiety has a lot to do with that.
This is a really tough question.
I would think that the Alpha me would have already answered it.
Alpha Female, Alpha Male, always when provoked.
Otherwise, you wouldn't even hear me behind you.
*Damn that Alpha person.
*You'd hear me. Maybe.
*Damn those Alpha me's.
Still a tough question.
Ativan
That sounds like a person who is in-touch with their inner self, their mind set at a given time, rather than a person with multiple personalities. I'm not seeing a problem....
Oh yes, having multiple facets has been the norm for me for my whole life!
As a child I was terribly shy and very quiet. When puberty hit I found that when living in my female aspect I became very much more outgoing, social, humorous, confident, and bold. When I had to return to the supposed-male aspect, I remained very quiet and shy.
After SRS/transition (at 24) the outgoing, confident, and social aspect continued and in the workplace I definitely became an alpha type personality! I could get things done on time and on budget and move mountains, so much so that I was known as "the dragon lady" at work.
It is only in the last couple of years, in my 60s, that I have come to recognize that at the core of my being I am still very much a little girl - bubbly, optimistic, and very much a people-pleaser - and having retired I am very happy to have dropped the dragon lady aspect in favour of being a full-time little girl.
I don't see it as multiple personalities but as different and contrasting aspects of the same personality.
I don't think I particularly have distinct parts of me, but I suppose I'm a little more quiet and slightly less confident as boy-clothed (likely keeping a secret) as opposed to girl-clothed (not bottling up that particular secret, and giving other people something to talk with me about). Others may get bossier during the latter, but I think that's usually their way of complaining. I suppose the bulk of my personality is a little more consistent, and perhaps it's because I'm fortunate enough that I can get away with it.
I'm not sometimes male and sometimes female I always have up to 6 streams of thought going through my head with a male and a female demon and a male and female angel another that is gender neutral and neither clearly positive or negative the last is omni gender and very much angel like. The demons keep bringing up nasty memories/ideas he used to be very vocal against me being even a little bit girly and if she had her way He wouldn't exist and I would present as a slutty girl only a small part of me would be happy with that. so finding a compromise between Male and female and between naughty and nice has had me presenting as a bearded lady for a few years mostly conservatively dressed but pretty I do have nagging thoughts about trying other ways to present as both male and female but unsure how to make it work practically. Bearded lady works for me to show I am strongly both. But everyone is different and how you present to ease the disphoria is a very personal journey that only needs to be undertaken by those that it will help.
I feel the same way! I have always felt like that.
If by "multiple personalities" you are referring to dissociative identity disorder, I can confirm that's not the case for you. If you had dissociative identity disorder, you mostly likely not know about the other, or at least not be entirely aware in the other personality. One personality, in a sense, is considered the "host" personality, and the one or more other personalities are considered "alternate" personalities.
But if you mean that you feel like you have two sets of distinctly different characteristics in your different mindsets, that's entirely possible. That's how it is for me - on my male days, I'm always more comfortable with myself and more confident; on my female days, I am more self-conscious and shy. I don't think there's anything wrong or strange about that!
Elio, I feel the opposite way. My mom was very outgoing and my dad was sort of the strong silent type. So my feminine side is outgoing and talkative and my masculine side is more the strong silent type.
Quote from: Gina_Z on September 29, 2013, 12:59:48 PM
Elio, I feel the opposite way. My mom was very outgoing and my dad was sort of the strong silent type. So my feminine side is outgoing and talkative and my masculine side is more the strong silent type.
Yes, in retrospect this would best describe me as well!
then again, i have been looking into this a great deal, and i'm not so sure about not being a multiple anymore. still puzzling over whether my various personalities are actually personalities or just different aspects of one personality...I may never know... :D
http://www.karitas.net/blackbirds/layman/whatis.html
http://www.karitas.net/blackbirds/layman/preference.html
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 24, 2013, 10:02:00 PM
Alpha Non-Binary. Except when I'm not.
Then I'm just Non-Binary nice person. Except when I'm not.
Then I'm just a total ass to be around. Except when I'm not around.
Which was most of my life. Except where I was.
Which was there. Except I'm not always sure about where there was sometimes.
But I'm pretty sure it was Alpha something. Or not.
Anxiety has it's own thoughts about it. Which is me.
Not which one, but anxiety has a lot to do with that.
This is a really tough question.
I would think that the Alpha me would have already answered it.
Alpha Female, Alpha Male, always when provoked.
Otherwise, you wouldn't even hear me behind you.
*Damn that Alpha person.
*You'd hear me. Maybe.
*Damn those Alpha me's.
Still a tough question.
Ativan
Love it!
It is a little like - I am a wave except when I am a particle
Aisla
I have no desire to be dominant or submissive... where does that leave me?? :-\
Yes because women are submissive, impressionable and soft-spoken huh?... ugh.
When people try to dichotomize their attributes and snap a gender label on personality traits it occurs to me that it's often overstereotypified as if it's blasphemy to suggest that they might sometimes feel like a submissive man or a dominant woman for instance.
This leads to dangerous train of thought: I'm submissive I must be a woman, I'm weak/impressionable/etc I must be a woman, I love wearing lingerie I must be a woman, etc. When in fact none of these things are relevant to gender identity. This is textbook internalized misogyny.
If in your mind your "strong" traits become male and your "weak" traits become female you can safely say that it warrants a red flag.
Quote from: Seyranna on June 02, 2014, 09:41:12 AM
Yes because women are submissive, impressionable and soft-spoken huh?... ugh.
When people try to dichotomize their attributes and snap a gender label on personality traits it occurs to me that it's often overstereotypified as if it's blasphemy to suggest that they might sometimes feel like a submissive man or a dominant woman for instance.
This leads to dangerous train of thought: I'm submissive I must be a woman, I'm weak/impressionable/etc I must be a woman, I love wearing lingerie I must be a woman, etc. When in fact none of these things are relevant to gender identity. This is textbook internalized misogyny.
If in your mind your "strong" traits become male and your "weak" traits become female you can safely say that it warrants a red flag.
In discussions about certain times when stress causes what feels like a separation of self, my therapist has noted that what I loosely refer to as she and he for lack of a better way to state it, the usual impressions of definitions of just what are male and female roles goes out the window.
She has noted several times that she has no idea which side of me is which if I don't identify them as she or he.
The roles that one would assume they would play out as don't apply.
I've tried to explain this as although they do seem to separate (a very uncomfortable feeling) they still hold the same threads or thoughts they share, just like they always do, they just deal with the situation as one or the other while still drawing on this meshing of thoughts, strengths and weaknesses that they have.
There really isn't an identity in the way one would think, they are more like separate personalities that are shared in an extreme.
She has asked me on occasion if I think they have switched roles at anytime or sometimes.
This is a confusing thing to try and answer, they don't have roles.
What they are is a very shared sense of self that are separated by their own definitions of gender, not ones that I assign to them.
One is the defender in ways that are in your face, the other is a defender in an intellectual way, yet they both share this same knowledge, because after all, they are just me.
If they couldn't share this, they would be nothing more than split personalities, which they most certainly are not, they are genders, but to define them by standard roles doesn't work.
They share everything that is me, I am me because of them.
They don't define themselves by roles, yet they are different by way of gender.
During times of tranquility, they are one and the same, they are both there, but their thoughts and actions work in unison.
It's only during times of stress that they seem to separate into different roles, but not in the sense that they have defined roles.
They switch hit when they need to.
I don't have a simple way of defining just what that is supposed to mean, I've tried and there isn't a simple answer.
They draw on each others strengths, push down their weaknesses as needed.
My therapist asked me to write her a short story as an example of what that means, as a way to help her understand what it is I talk about.
Over 80,000 words later, I'm still writing that story.
There are only a couple people who have been reading parts of it and one person who is familiar with the story, but not from the standpoint of trying to express what the roles are of my gender.
More of a person who questions my use of grammar and spelling.
She's starting to get the picture of just what my gender is.
But one thing that has become clear to me as I read it over myself, is that I do indeed have a gender that is comprised of not just one gender, maybe more than two genders, but in general, they do seem to be as I write about them as she and he, but they are identifiers, not roles.
It's become more apparent than ever that they have identities, but they share roles in the same way that they share thoughts and intellect.
It's what they do with that shared knowledge at any given moment or situation.
They have an awareness, I have that awareness, they are after all, me.
That's what defines them, awareness, not the roles they play or even how they identify.
The mistake I have made all my life is in referring to them as she and he, implying that there is a role to be played.
It's not that big of a deal and it is an over simplified way of talking about my gender.
But this does lead me to ask all of you, are you assigning a role to your gender?
And if you are, do they really follow the roles that society has them playing?
Or are they their own roles and you feel that they should have at least some of those roles applied to them...
Are they different sides of you? Or are they really female and male? There's a fine line there somewhere.
I trust that you recognize that indeed there are more than just one dimension to your gender in such a way that they define themselves as separate to you and that you understand that they are, that they are more than just the male and female sides to anyone.
Binaries all talk about the different aspects of their one apparent gender and talk about those same things, the roles that the feminine side of them play, the masculine side plays.
I find myself with distinct genders from that point of view, but I can only think of them as my gender, which has more definition than a binary gender has.
But those definitions are not roles that they talk about and the ones that I hear some of you talking about and questioning.
Is the confusion about these roles, is because you feel an obligation to define them that way?
I guess I don't do that, they define themselves in how they interact together as me.
They ignore those rules of roles, so I do too.
I should have never defined them as she and he, it is way too over simplified to do that and I can see how it causes confusion.
I just got used to calling them that.
Because there aren't words in English that I can use, I use those as handy replacements for the lack of better terms.
I don't really view them as a she or he, they just are, I could just as easily switch those words or terms around for them.
I think that's probably what confuses my therapist when I talk about it.
They don't play roles, they have defined their own and they share them.
Ativan
I'll be back tomorrow on this one.
Just got intensely disappointing blood serum results. Oh well, the needle awaits, just told my wife, she's ok with it. Amazing. Serums were 10x lower than what I may or may not need, at least 7x lower than any minimum goals I ever read about. Simplifies my choices. Waiting on an endo call now.
But on the OP side it all sounds familiar, and for the rest, it sounds familiar, and it sounds,,,, non binary normal....
As I have said several times in other threads I believe I have three centers, physical, social and spiritual. Or Female, fluid, and the core. No label on the fluid personality traits, none needed, but it morphs depending on threat, intimacy, company, talking to mtf's...
The centers idea simplifies things for me. I don't know if anyone else ever uses it, I made this up based on how I typically feel and react. From an actors training perceptive, finding truth.
Met my shrink today and asked if his diagnosis had changed. The original really was to justify the meds, nothing else, he minimized what was on the letter, and currently, he diagnosed me as a "Satinjoy". He diagnosed me as a spirit. Not a dysphoria, disorder or anything else, just the best Satinjoy we could be with and explore together, to make me happy and truthful, to make my loved ones happy. Of course he used my real name but with theater ties that has to be secret. ;)
Sharp cookie, that one.
Will be back tomorrow, I want to read up on the thread more.
And I need someone to tell me what alpha means and some of the other acronyms I don't understand, like the three or four letter descriptions. I haven't the faintest idea what those mean.
God Bless and Hugs and Love to all here.
Quote from: Satinjoy on June 02, 2014, 04:22:49 PM
Met my shrink today and asked if his diagnosis had changed. The original really was to justify the meds, nothing else, he minimized what was on the letter, and currently, he diagnosed me as a "Satinjoy". He diagnosed me as a spirit. Not a dysphoria, disorder or anything else, just the best Satinjoy we could be with and explore together, to make me happy and truthful, to make my loved ones happy.
That shrink sounds a keeper, I like him already.
As for the acronyms, I hate them with a passion.
Alpha isn't an acronym, it is the first letter of the greek alphabet and denotes superiority and/or dominance.
Quote from: Ms Grace on June 02, 2014, 05:33:24 AM
I have no desire to be dominant or submissive... where does that leave me?? :-\
21st century partner-partner, emotionally intelligent, so full of grace, punt intended.. LOL
Alpha is my core personality trait known specifically as Type A - Chloric, which though isn't always an endearing quality it has served me well at times in the past when a push came to a shove and I needed to assert myself or take charge of a situation. Type A people can be pretty insufferable to be around with a "my way or the highway" attitude. It's particularly nasty at times when it's testosterone driven and has some partial bearing on why I had myself neutered back in 2001. The opposite of that is a Type B personality which tends to be more laid back and even submissive to a degree, 20 years on female HRT has taken me toward a more type B personality tempering the Alpha proclivities and has made me much nicer to be around, a better listener and more emphatic toward others than previously.
Once an alpha always an alpha, in the top or in the bottom makes no difference, baby !
Quote from: peky on June 02, 2014, 08:19:11 PM
Once an alpha always an alpha, in the top or in the bottom makes no difference, baby !
Like I said, "A better listener and more emphatic to others!"
And act much less passive-aggressively to others. :icon_ballbounce:
But this does lead me to ask all of you, are you assigning a role to your gender?
And if you are, do they really follow the roles that society has them playing?
Or are they their own roles and you feel that they should have at least some of those roles applied to them...
Are they different sides of you? Or are they really female and male? There's a fine line there somewhere. --- Ativan
They are components that surface as they respond to the environment, emotional needs, comfort levels.... with an internal constant core I will call spirit or soul... but they are not full binary roles, they fall short of the binary, for there is always the awareness of the other side of the rainbow colors in play. On the physical, it is my interpretation of what I feel, aggression or passive passion remains in the "female" spectrum as does my physical self perception, but I can see through the male presentation in a heartbeat, into the eyes, into the soul, into the peace and joy of authenticity and fact, letting each component see the physical beauty of the other, and knowing it is part of the whole, the rainbow, the colors of Satinjoy, in her lightning and thunder and mist and pleasant rain and new dawns and moon and light and romance and all that is me.
It is the freedom of the non binary spirit to be, feel, fly, live, experience, with the brakes off and the head up looking for the dawn of a new day and the glory of the life to come.
They for me are components. I have legs and arms and a mind and boobs and a necessary social beard... all components, none to be despised or rejected, a part of a puzzle that is a life to be celebrated, nurtured, valued, protected, and shared.
God bless all of you and all of your components, especially your HEARTS
Love to all here. Cherish your God Given components and identities, they are gifts given and to be given to others.
---Satinjoy
Quote from: Seyranna on June 02, 2014, 09:41:12 AM
Yes because women are submissive, impressionable and soft-spoken huh?... ugh.
When people try to dichotomize their attributes and snap a gender label on personality traits it occurs to me that it's often overstereotypified as if it's blasphemy to suggest that they might sometimes feel like a submissive man or a dominant woman for instance.
This leads to dangerous train of thought: I'm submissive I must be a woman, I'm weak/impressionable/etc I must be a woman, I love wearing lingerie I must be a woman, etc. When in fact none of these things are relevant to gender identity. This is textbook internalized misogyny.
If in your mind your "strong" traits become male and your "weak" traits become female you can safely say that it warrants a red flag.
I very much agree with this. Not wanting to attack the OP at all. But we often see this sort of - 'I'm submissive, soft, and cry easily' as some kind of explanation for having 'female feelings' or a 'female mind'. This has nothing to do with being female. Women typically cry easier for lack of T (and some say, differently shaped tear ducts). So, a male assigned person being prone to tears really says nothing except that they may be a sensitive sort. Having feelings is not relegated to the female sex. Women cry easier because of physical factors, not more feeling. And also social factors - not nearly as taboo for females to cry as for men.
And being more submissive - well, the female sex has pretty much been subjugated for as far as history goes back. It's a socialization thing, not an innate trait. Women are pretty much raised to take a back seat, be pleasing and accommodate.
Quote from: FA on June 03, 2014, 01:08:35 PM
I very much agree with this. Not wanting to attack the OP at all. But we often see this sort of - 'I'm submissive, soft, and cry easily' as some kind of explanation for having 'female feelings' or a 'female mind'. This has nothing to do with being female. Women typically cry easier for lack of T (and some say, differently shaped tear ducts). So, a male assigned person being prone to tears really says nothing except that they may be a sensitive sort. Having feelings is not relegated to the female sex. Women cry easier because of physical factors, not more feeling.
And being more submissive - well, the female sex has pretty much been subjugated for as far as history goes back. It's a socialization thing, not an innate trait. Women are pretty much raised to take a back seat, be pleasing and accommodate.
I like your take. I cried all the time pre-HRT and was never remotely an alpha male, but I attributed that to the fact my brain is hard wired pretty far over to the "F" side of the spectrum. When I got on E, the water works came a bit more easily.
Also, my wife and mother were both raised to accept second-class status, but they both gave the world the finger and became an attorney and scientist respectively. Neither were "girly girls" at all. My wife has been known to send alpha males running away with their tails between their legs.
Quote from: Jill F on June 03, 2014, 01:30:53 PM
Quote from: FA on June 03, 2014, 01:08:35 PM
I very much agree with this. Not wanting to attack the OP at all. But we often see this sort of - 'I'm submissive, soft, and cry easily' as some kind of explanation for having 'female feelings' or a 'female mind'. This has nothing to do with being female. Women typically cry easier for lack of T (and some say, differently shaped tear ducts). So, a male assigned person being prone to tears really says nothing except that they may be a sensitive sort. Having feelings is not relegated to the female sex. Women cry easier because of physical factors, not more feeling.
And being more submissive - well, the female sex has pretty much been subjugated for as far as history goes back. It's a socialization thing, not an innate trait. Women are pretty much raised to take a back seat, be pleasing and accommodate.
I like your take. I cried all the time pre-HRT and was never remotely an alpha male, but I attributed that to the fact my brain is hard wired pretty far over to the "F" side of the spectrum. When I got on E, the water works came a bit more easily.
Also, my wife and mother were both raised to accept second-class status, but they both gave the world the finger and became an attorney and scientist respectively. Neither were "girly girls" at all. My wife has been known to send alpha males running away with their tails between their legs.
Oh yeah, I think dominant and submissive personalities come pretty much equally in both sexes. It's just that society is set up to make it easier for males to dominate. And women are discouraged from dominant behavior, face more social sanction for it. And males the opposite. Both are put 'in their place'. But really, as far as personalities go, I'm sure everyone knows a few very dominant females and submissive males. Being submissive isn't a female trait. It's a female expectation, sure.
I really don't know how to explain it but I am neither dominate or submissive. Sure, when I am with a guy, trans or cis, I really expect them to take the lead and make the decisions of where we go, what restaurant and so on. If I meet them at a club, make the first advances to me, buy me the first drink, tell me you would like to dance with me and so on. With women, trans or cis, it is more like a 50/50 type deal. I wouldn't actually call it submissiveness with a guy as much as letting them taking control with a input for me. Me being submissive will come later on if I like ya'. ;) :embarrassed:
I am most certainly submissive in life. I find I react to things better than I start them.
Wow this stuff gets so complicated quick.
Gender is weird.
All I know is that in bed, I am a girl. And a wild one, ask my wife.
Outside it, anything goes, and does. Labels are useless to me. Feelings are everything, letting them flow, the heck with what gender is supposed to feel what. It just feels and isn't supposed to be shushed by social strains.
But in bed, my wiring is not anything remotely male. My physical feelings and perception of my body below the chin is that it is not male. I just have "leftovers" and even that doesn't feel male. It actually looks to me like some kind of afterthought stuck on me. And wearing male under things? (((((SHIVERS)))))) no no no.
Too much information... oops.
Nails out, hair down, head up, finally free to be me.
But this gender assignment thing to dominate or submission psychologically, I dunno, and I bet I also fall into this trap. I certainly am relationally dominant with the wife.
Too complicated.
Quote from: Satinjoy on June 03, 2014, 03:26:28 PM
Wow this stuff gets so complicated quick.
Gender is weird.
All I know is that in bed, I am a girl. And a wild one, ask my wife.
Outside it, anything goes, and does. Labels are useless to me. Feelings are everything, letting them flow, the heck with what gender is supposed to feel what. It just feels and isn't supposed to be shushed by social strains.
But in bed, my wiring is not anything remotely male. My physical feelings and perception of my body below the chin is that it is not male. I just have "leftovers" and even that doesn't feel male. It actually looks to me like some kind of afterthought stuck on me. And wearing male under things? (((((SHIVERS)))))) no no no.
Too much information... oops.
Nails out, hair down, head up, finally free to be me.
But this gender assignment thing to dominate or submission psychologically, I dunno, and I bet I also fall into this trap. I certainly am relationally dominant with the wife.
Too complicated.
My God, Satinjoy. It is extremely complicated. I think one of the problems is that we can see things from both perspectives. Actually feel things from both perspectives even. Like I said, when I am with a man, I want him to be the strong, decisive one. Even with women though I do not want to be the dominate one in the relationship. Who knows, I just may be messed up but when I want a man, I want a masculine man but with a woman, I want to feel more on a level playing field.
Like you said, it is complicated.
Makes perfect sense to me, those comments.
I am in wedlock, that part of me in terms of preferences is deliberately shut down outside marriage, wife gets all of me. At my age, it doesn't matter, love and intimacy and being real and playing with her and romance matters. But the core is a constant in my scenario. Now on hormones it is all a richer experience with more joy and sensuality and reality and peace. Wasn't easy to get here though, as most of you know that have known me over time at Susans.
Quote from: Ms Grace on June 02, 2014, 05:33:24 AM
I have no desire to be dominant or submissive... where does that leave me?? :-\
vanilla. it's considered most normal by society, so normal that only those who are interested in other things or have read 50 shades would even think of calling it anything at all.
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on June 02, 2014, 03:41:16 PM
But one thing that has become clear to me as I read it over myself, is that I do indeed have a gender that is comprised of not just one gender, maybe more than two genders, but in general, they do seem to be as I write about them as she and he, but they are identifiers, not roles.
It's become more apparent than ever that they have identities, but they share roles in the same way that they share thoughts and intellect.
It's what they do with that shared knowledge at any given moment or situation.
They have an awareness, I have that awareness, they are after all, me.
That's what defines them, awareness, not the roles they play or even how they identify.
The mistake I have made all my life is in referring to them as she and he, implying that there is a role to be played.
It's not that big of a deal and it is an over simplified way of talking about my gender.
But this does lead me to ask all of you, are you assigning a role to your gender?
And if you are, do they really follow the roles that society has them playing?
Or are they their own roles and you feel that they should have at least some of those roles applied to them...
Are they different sides of you? Or are they really female and male?
that's pretty nicely explained. i'm glad you took the time to write a whole little essay about this.
i did think about assigning roles, or defining by roles, or calling different sides "he" or "she". but pretty much all of me hate gendered pronouns used to define, because i'm not definable in that way. took a little thinking to figure it out, but it's good to know that i didn't waste years to fretting over it before i realized.
but i do think i consist of several entities, or at least identities. not too sure what it really is. only thing i'm sure about is that Taka is an identity that really covers all there is to me. the name just stuck after using it in a context where i could be more of myself than i'd ever dared before that, and i felt more at home there than just accepted. what i like most about it is that it's perfectly gender neutral, though i don't think i could change my name to it.
other than that, i can't be sure of any names i've tried on, or identities that i have used. in the end, all of them might just be different personas, created to fit in a social context, or as a defense mechanism. or some times as a reaction to something else, like having been forced into one role for too long. gendered roles don't apply to me in any way i can find, but they're practical when i don't feel like explaining my entire gender history with people. [real name] is also a whole lot of persona, one that i felt compelled to fit into by other people's expectations. and many of them are explicitly expressed expectations from parents, peers, or others who've had different degrees of power over me in my childhood and youth.
but my gender doesn't seem to be something that can be easily defined by labels. different sides to my person will express themselves, often in rather unexpected ways. the gender those different sides claim to have seem fairly consistent, but i haven't managed to make any of them stick at the surface for much more than a few weeks at a time. and even then, i often switch between personalities almost the same way that i switch languages when talking to different people. it's weird, at times confusing, some times the personalities mix together, or one just disappears without me knowing where it went off to. but i don't think i'd want it any other way.
in offline society, i cover it all up by changing hair colors. makes it easier to keep up my [real name] persona, pretending to be a tomboyish slightly queer cis female isn't all that bad when i can change any aspect of my outward appearance that does not require hormones or surgery. the "female" label is annoying, but practical as long as i don't need to change it. that need may arise when online societies are no longer enough for my male sides to express themselves.
Quote from: Satinjoy on June 02, 2014, 04:22:49 PM
And I need someone to tell me what alpha means and some of the other acronyms I don't understand, like the three or four letter descriptions. I haven't the faintest idea what those mean.
Quote from: LordKAT on June 02, 2014, 05:00:56 PM
Alpha isn't an acronym, it is the first letter of the greek alphabet and denotes superiority and/or dominance.
or the even easier explanation, alpha is the type of behavior one would expect from the alpha male of a wolf pack.
Quote from: FA on June 03, 2014, 01:08:35 PM
And being more submissive - well, the female sex has pretty much been subjugated for as far as history goes back. It's a socialization thing, not an innate trait. Women are pretty much raised to take a back seat, be pleasing and accommodate.
female "submissiveness" might be linked to a lack of desire to attack others for the tiniest excuse one could possibly find. women who survive through anything are likely to raise more offspring into adulthood, and one of the easiest ways to survive is to never get noticed much outside one's home. but i don't really think this makes a woman truly submissive, and i don't think most women would even end up submissive this way, as a strong personality and ability to protect young ones against attackers also can be desirable in a person who is to take care of any offspring.
but it's easy to misunderstand a generally mellow personality as submissive. people often make that mistake with me, some have gotten more than a little shocked when they've started to realize that i can be completely unyielding in matters that are important to me. though i'm usually pretty quiet and don't say much for or against anything as long as people are being fairly reasonable.
Quote from: Seyranna on June 02, 2014, 09:41:12 AM
Yes because women are submissive, impressionable and soft-spoken huh?... ugh.
When people try to dichotomize their attributes and snap a gender label on personality traits it occurs to me that it's often overstereotypified as if it's blasphemy to suggest that they might sometimes feel like a submissive man or a dominant woman for instance.
This leads to dangerous train of thought: I'm submissive I must be a woman, I'm weak/impressionable/etc I must be a woman, I love wearing lingerie I must be a woman, etc. When in fact none of these things are relevant to gender identity. This is textbook internalized misogyny.
If in your mind your "strong" traits become male and your "weak" traits become female you can safely say that it warrants a red flag.
I never said that all women are soft spoken and submissive. I only said that I personally tended to be submissive (in the context of a social/ sexual relationship) in my female state. I don't like wearing lingerie or working on cars. I don't like wearing makeup as a boy or a girl. I like taking things apart and seeing how they work, but I'm not any good at math. Gender stereotypes have always befuddled me and made me scratch my head.
My strong and weak traits have nothing to do with this. ???
Quote from: Taka on June 04, 2014, 07:51:00 AM
vanilla. it's considered most normal by society, so normal that only those who are interested in other things or have read 50 shades would even think of calling it anything at all.
that's pretty nicely explained. i'm glad you took the time to write a whole little essay about this.
i did think about assigning roles, or defining by roles, or calling different sides "he" or "she". but pretty much all of me hate gendered pronouns used to define, because i'm not definable in that way. took a little thinking to figure it out, but it's good to know that i didn't waste years to fretting over it before i realized.
but i do think i consist of several entities, or at least identities. not too sure what it really is. only thing i'm sure about is that Taka is an identity that really covers all there is to me. the name just stuck after using it in a context where i could be more of myself than i'd ever dared before that, and i felt more at home there than just accepted. what i like most about it is that it's perfectly gender neutral, though i don't think i could change my name to it.
other than that, i can't be sure of any names i've tried on, or identities that i have used. in the end, all of them might just be different personas, created to fit in a social context, or as a defense mechanism. or some times as a reaction to something else, like having been forced into one role for too long. gendered roles don't apply to me in any way i can find, but they're practical when i don't feel like explaining my entire gender history with people. [real name] is also a whole lot of persona, one that i felt compelled to fit into by other people's expectations. and many of them are explicitly expressed expectations from parents, peers, or others who've had different degrees of power over me in my childhood and youth.
but my gender doesn't seem to be something that can be easily defined by labels. different sides to my person will express themselves, often in rather unexpected ways. the gender those different sides claim to have seem fairly consistent, but i haven't managed to make any of them stick at the surface for much more than a few weeks at a time. and even then, i often switch between personalities almost the same way that i switch languages when talking to different people. it's weird, at times confusing, some times the personalities mix together, or one just disappears without me knowing where it went off to. but i don't think i'd want it any other way.
in offline society, i cover it all up by changing hair colors. makes it easier to keep up my [real name] persona, pretending to be a tomboyish slightly queer cis female isn't all that bad when i can change any aspect of my outward appearance that does not require hormones or surgery. the "female" label is annoying, but practical as long as i don't need to change it. that need may arise when online societies are no longer enough for my male sides to express themselves.
or the even easier explanation, alpha is the type of behavior one would expect from the alpha male of a wolf pack.
female "submissiveness" might be linked to a lack of desire to attack others for the tiniest excuse one could possibly find. women who survive through anything are likely to raise more offspring into adulthood, and one of the easiest ways to survive is to never get noticed much outside one's home. but i don't really think this makes a woman truly submissive, and i don't think most women would even end up submissive this way, as a strong personality and ability to protect young ones against attackers also can be desirable in a person who is to take care of any offspring.
but it's easy to misunderstand a generally mellow personality as submissive. people often make that mistake with me, some have gotten more than a little shocked when they've started to realize that i can be completely unyielding in matters that are important to me. though i'm usually pretty quiet and don't say much for or against anything as long as people are being fairly reasonable.
About the vanilla thing - yeah, i try to be like that, but there's so many extremes to me, or in here, that it is almost impossible. i guess i am just a trippy switch, versatile to the max.
i absolutely relate to what you said about multiple entities (or identities). I am not too sure which one mine are either, perhaps it is just a matter of perspective? There's just one body, at least that much I can be certain of.....my name is a combination of Sun and Moon. Yin and Yang. Duality. Elio Ayla. that's what i strive for, a balance, but it isnt always easy for me.
I know what you mean about expectations. I love to play with those things though. I'm not really very good at being a human being at all though. I wake up and look at myself in the mirror and just feel utter bemusement at what is staring back at me. It looks like an alien to me.
In my day to day life, I'm an omega wolf. I make everybody laugh, even make a fool of myself if it's the only thing that will bring a smile, I ease tensions whenever I can, and if my packmates disrespect me and hurt me enough I might break away and go it alone. Male or female, that's just my role.
Quote from: ElioAyla on June 06, 2014, 02:10:30 AM
In my day to day life, I'm an omega wolf. I make everybody laugh, even make a fool of myself if it's the only thing that will bring a smile, I ease tensions whenever I can, and if my packmates disrespect me and hurt me enough I might break away and go it alone. Male or female, that's just my role.
I hate to tell you this ElioAyla, but what you described doesn't make you an omega wolf. If anything it makes you more of an alpha. Having the confidence to laugh at yourself or making a fool of yourself to make other's laugh takes quite a bit. Easing tensions, well that is another alpha trait because that means that people actually take your lead. It takes a lot to make fun of yourself and a whole lot of people can't. Being able to laugh at youself is an indicator of strong self esteem, self confidence and inner strength. You may not even be aware of it but believe me, people respect those sort of things in others because they may not have those qualities themselves.
Don't sell yourself short. People that are dominate and know and use it to manipulate others are usually buttholes. Real leaders are the ones that don't want to lead and really have no idea how strong they truly are.
Quote from: Ms Grace on June 02, 2014, 05:33:24 AM
I have no desire to be dominant or submissive... where does that leave me?? :-\
Same as me, and I'm far from vanilla.
Quote from: Pitch on June 08, 2014, 07:33:41 AM
Same as me, and I'm far from vanilla.
That is OK. Chocolate is so much better.
i like ginger and liquorice.
Strawberry is definitely better than vanilla.
I always found the alpha male role to be incredibly boring. Is it possible for there to even be an intelligent alpha male? It seems like those that do successfully pull it off are not, they're just dumb, strong, arrogant guys, that annoy the hell out of me, and act like they're better than me. The only thing that annoys me more is the fact that women generally find them attractive for whatever reason. This is the one aspect of being a woman I don't feel I'll ever understand.
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on June 15, 2014, 12:41:47 AM
Strawberry is definitely better than vanilla.
I always found the alpha male role to be incredibly boring. Is it possible for there to even be an intelligent alpha male? It seems like those that do successfully pull it off are not, they're just dumb, strong, arrogant guys, that annoy the hell out of me, and act like they're better than me. The only thing that annoys me more is the fact that women generally find them attractive for whatever reason. This is the one aspect of being a woman I don't feel I'll ever understand.
I think one thing we may be doing is are we comparing the alpha roles in a social way or personality way?
In wolf packs there is an alpha male and alpha female. These roles change. Wolves are animals and even as intellegent as the canine speies are, they still live by insinct and have not as high of levels of thinking than us humans. The "alpha male" type you are speaking of sounds more like a social alpha role. Those roles, much like in a wolf pack will change when somone al ittle better looking, a little more arrogant and so on come around. This is not limited to gender because like the wolf pack there are social alpha females. The thing about it is that when the rubber meets the road or the crap gets splattered by the fan they are ususally the ones that haven't a clue of what to do and usually fail miserably at that.
The true alphas, personality wise, are the ones then that step up to the plate, then actually lead and keep everyone safe to the point that they will sacrifice themselves. Like I told ElioAyla ealier, having the ability to laugh at oneself and make fun of oneself takes a lot of self confidence and self esteem, making people laugh and or smile and comfortable enough speaks volumes about inner strength and just how strong a person is to induce laughter and or easing tensions in others. So really, the true alpha types are really not aware that they are alphas or care to be social alphas. They usually just stand back and watch the other's jockey for that social hierarchey and really don't want to be a part of it, but usually have more of an effect on the crowd than what they think. And a lot of time these true "alphas" will make the social alphas uncomfortable because the social alphas usually don't have the inner strength, self confidence or self esteem to really do much more than look the part.
I think the Alpha and Omega are being mixed up with dominant and submissive.
and how they apply to roles when it comes to non-binary gender.
We speak of having female and male sides to ourselves in general, she and he.
The question of whether we are applying dominant to he and submissive to she came up.
I question whether we do or not. I have two sides to my gender, she and he.
They are both me, they share everything because they are me, not two different people.
Depending of what is needed, what the situation is, they can both be one or the other in the way they use these things.
They can both be dominant if need be, or one will stand out more than the other.
They can be either role of Alpha or Omega, or dominant or submissive.
They are me, they share everything because they are me after all.
The definitions apply equally, are shared and used as such.
But they are still identified as she and he, which is just me.
I identify them that way because they seem to be, but it might just be because of the demands of society to have a binary world.
One picked up traits different from the other one at an early age?
I don't know, they could've started out that way, have just blended as I age.
It's interesting to me that they could be different for others, that the perspectives of genders have roles.
When I was young, I thought they did, because society demanded that they where.
Does society dictate what your identities are? That they have roles?
Or do they really have those traits and roles?
I used to think they did, but not so much anymore, if at all.
My awareness that I was non-binary was dependent on this.
It was when I realized that they didn't was when I lost that binary thinking.
But I don't know if that is just me or not. I leave it open because of what I read here...
The question was, do you really assign roles to your identity, to it's perspectives? To your identities, to your genders?
Now I wonder if any of you perceive non-binary as a shared identity or genders, without assigning roles.
Yet still retain the sense that they are different, that they do have an awareness of their own that you share with yourself.
I don't think there is any right way or wrong way in how we perceive our gender(s).
Although I do think it probably changes over time, just like so many things do as we go older.
It's an interesting discussion.
To me, it's awareness, then identity(s), then roles and what we apply to those roles, the how and why.
Ativan
The question was, do you really assign roles to your identity, to it's perspectives? To your identities, to your genders?
Now I wonder if any of you perceive non-binary as a shared identity or genders, without assigning roles.
Yet still retain the sense that they are different, that they do have an awareness of their own that you share with yourself.
I don't think there is any right way or wrong way in how we perceive our gender(s).
Although I do think it probably changes over time, just like so many things do as we go older.
It's an interesting discussion.
To me, it's awareness, then identity(s), then roles and what we apply to those roles, the how and why.
Ativan
Moving a bit fast here- hard for me to get quality forum time now
For me, I was unable to break free of binary thinking until a crisis caused by physical dysphoria forced it. That has brought me here.
Since then, labels disintegrate, and the only defined female characteristic became how my body physically responds during intimacy. That I classify as exclusively female.
But mentally it floats, there is the center, non identifyable male to female, probably more male. There is the fluid social, which is simply action reaction, aggression when needed, passive when relaxed.
The image of the macho male is revolting to me. Probably because I was forced to try to be it, and they only hurt me most of the time, but not all the time.
Male then becomes synonymous with fatherhood, another role, a mindset and way of life, contributing to remaining GQ presentationally.
But social pressures cloud everything.
Awareness then identity. The roles I get tired of, implies something I add to the others. Prefer always responding from the center. Roles are a defense mechanism for me, a disguise of sorts.
However, in full transition as Satinjoy, would I say the same thing? I don't know. My sense of center will shift with that presentation.
Gender then is almost illusory.
Confusing it is. But I do know I feel better now that the focus is on experiencing rather than thinking.
Shared identities. Blended identities. Elusive. All part of the whole none distanced far from the other. Can change instantly depending on who I am talking to but the center remains integrated.
Quote from: Satinjoy on June 17, 2014, 11:58:11 AM
The question was, do you really assign roles to your identity, to it's perspectives? To your identities, to your genders?
Now I wonder if any of you perceive non-binary as a shared identity or genders, without assigning roles.
Yet still retain the sense that they are different, that they do have an awareness of their own that you share with yourself.
Some of the questions that are considered here are often too overwhelming to me, I suppose it's because I don't examining everything as closely as some and am not as concerned about the mental mechanics and minutia of what drives me and others. Not that it isn't important for some to examine, but I am just a simpleton that takes it all as whatever it is and am thankful to be able to balance my checkbook.
So I suppose that when I am with males doing male things that my male persona dominates though I am always aware of stuffing the female aspect as being inappropriate for time and place. When I'm with females then that other person shrinks away and takes a back seat to my more female side, though knowing that if a lion entered the room that other guy would surface in an instant. Neither persona has ever been the controlling factor of who I am. Sheesh these questions are hard, I hope this isn't a graded test and if it is at least give me a D+. ;D
They are some pretty tough questions and in some ways call for more introspection for some.
I've been doing some of that myself lately, comes from writing that I have been doing.
I went back over what I was writing to look for errors and realized things about myself that I wouldn't have otherwise.
And a lot of it comes from what I read here that people have written.
I've just been looking at perspectives a little more closely.
We're an interesting group of people.
You help keep us grounded when we run off on these tangents of thought.
Lol, it's not a graded test, but you get an A+, just the same. :)
Ativan
This is the one place where instead of having an A+ I would like B's or OMG C's.
The bottom line for me is are we comfortable and happy in our center and presentation or uncomfortable and reactionary. Truthful or not truthful.
And the reason for me to keep digging in here is that physical dysphoria unchecked or pulling away from the reality of who I am internally can actually kill me. The scenario is loss of wife through too much female presentation, then loss of everything else, then back to the dark side I was in my 20's, but miserable, for my center loves my wife and our relationship which is now based on truth, trust and deep love, with accommodations for each to make for the other. But I have sung that song too many times in here.
Being happy, genuine and comfortable is the big deal in here. Sounds like Shantel already has that one nailed. And Shantel got to keep (pronoun?)'s girl too, and lived happily ever after.
That's an A+ isn't it? I envy that simplicity.
But I love the deep conversations in here. And it helps me stay centered, or I would drift back to far into the female side, nothing wrong with that, but not in my current life conditions. I will not trade my wife for my dysphoric needs. Not when I truly have no interest in pursuing a female FTE presentation. I just want to be me.
Nails out, hair down, head up and wanting to be helpful.
Enjoy all. And I really really really want a B+ someday ;)
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on June 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
They are some pretty tough questions and in some ways call for more introspection for some.
I've been doing some of that myself lately, comes from writing that I have been doing.
I went back over what I was writing to look for errors and realized things about myself that I wouldn't have otherwise.
And a lot of it comes from what I read here that people have written.
I've just been looking at perspectives a little more closely.
We're an interesting group of people.
You help keep us grounded when we run off on these tangents of thought.
Lol, it's not a graded test, but you get an A+, just the same. :)
Ativan
Gee thanks teacher! Wish I would have done that in HS, graduated from a four year academic HS with a 1.5 overall GPA because I was immature and disinterested. After two hitches in the army went on to a junior college and they fainted when they saw my HS transcript and said, "How the hell did you manage that?" I said, "It was close, the only thing that saved me was my term papers and tests, because the jerks that let me copy their homework had crappy papers" :D ;D Finally I decided not to count on other people for life's answers.
You know I have to ask something, since you are my peer group now. Am I generally making sense? Do you identify with the take I have on this stuff - or am I either an oddity or kind of on the wrong page...
Gosh the loneliness I sometimes feel about being different from just about everyone really can bite.
Does anyone else identify with this three center thing - physical, spiritual or the core, and social fluidity?
Another place where I realize the more I know the less I know. But at least I think that getting rid of the blocks to feeling has helped a lot, and I hope all of you get rid of yours. Mine come and go, I know that when I hold my breath, for then I am usually stuffing feelings. So we need to breathe.
In the natural I would be less GQ and more MTF. Oh well.
Quote from: Satinjoy on June 17, 2014, 03:42:57 PM
This is the one place where instead of having an A+ I would like B's or OMG C's.
The bottom line for me is are we comfortable and happy in our center and presentation or uncomfortable and reactionary. Truthful or not truthful.
And the reason for me to keep digging in here is that physical dysphoria unchecked or pulling away from the reality of who I am internally can actually kill me. The scenario is loss of wife through too much female presentation, then loss of everything else, then back to the dark side I was in my 20's, but miserable, for my center loves my wife and our relationship which is now based on truth, trust and deep love, with accommodations for each to make for the other. But I have sung that song too many times in here.
Being happy, genuine and comfortable is the big deal in here. Sounds like Shantel already has that one nailed. And Shantel got to keep (pronoun?)'s girl too, and lived happily ever after.
That's an A+ isn't it? I envy that simplicity.
But I love the deep conversations in here. And it helps me stay centered, or I would drift back to far into the female side, nothing wrong with that, but not in my current life conditions. I will not trade my wife for my dysphoric needs. Not when I truly have no interest in pursuing a female FTE presentation. I just want to be me.
Nails out, hair down, head up and wanting to be helpful.
Enjoy all. And I really really really want a B+ someday ;)
Yes that is definitely an A in my book and if you think about it anyone that is going to be true to themselves isn't going to be fooling and deluding themselves. That being said one has to be honest and open with themselves and others. If you are in a meaningful relationship like a marriage or some kind of committed partnership then honesty and trust are big players and it is something that always has to be worked at constantly with a lot of open conversation with feeling, emotion, empathy and passion. There is really no room for stuffing. I was a stuffer in my most masculine days, because that's what men did, they didn't share squat with anyone, lest it appear as weakness and we can't have that!
Well times changed along with the level of my transition and along with that came compromise from both of us on how far I would take my trans status. I had to come to the place where I realized that having a vagina wasn't worth the cost to me in loss of the love of my life, my spouse and alienation of family members, he disdain and ridicule of friends. I had a need to be functional in the real world apart from the transgender world with all of it's inherent fantasy. Not that I don't love it, but I pragmatically concluded that it wasn't completely for me. So with that I became more in tune with androgyny and the non-binary concept, it became more palatable along with having read a lot of lengthy commentaries by Ativan. I have found my place here it is the ultimate panacea and middle ground where i can function and keep my familial and spiritual relationships balanced and in place and still present as flamboyantly as I prefer that is reasonable. I'm considered a bit eccentric but having a friendly, warm and outgoing personality in public is really extremely disarming to those who might consider open ridicule. I had an orchiectomy in 2001 which was ok then because my spouse wasn't interested in the usual thing until she got on HRT herself then things changed. I am on full dosage HRT typical for a post menopausal female because I have no gonads, I found that I didn't like going back on injectable testosterone as it drove me back into type A personality which isn't really very nice so I use a small amount of T cream the day before date morning and half a Viagra and I'm better now than I was before. I know TMI here but I want to be transparent and honest with everyone who is living non-binary, it can be as good as you make it but one has to be proactive in all aspects of how you want to live your life. Hope this makes sense, it came straight from my heart!
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on June 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
They are some pretty tough questions and in some ways call for more introspection for some.
I've been doing some of that myself lately, comes from writing that I have been doing.
I went back over what I was writing to look for errors and realized things about myself that I wouldn't have otherwise.
And a lot of it comes from what I read here that people have written.
I've just been looking at perspectives a little more closely.
We're an interesting group of people.
You help keep us grounded when we run off on these tangents of thought.
Lol, it's not a graded test, but you get an A+, just the same. :)
Ativan
There is no real way of avoiding your truth. It sits there. It demands attention. It elicits a visceral response. It is ever present. The strange thing it that there are as many truths as you have relationships. Being authentic, present, respectful of yourself and others demands fluidity and flexibility. I cant see how I can aspire to be anything other than non binary as this is the only identity that affords me this level of flexibility.
I was reminded of this today when my very understanding wife acknowledged that I was now a much nicer and happier person and no longer displayed the "hard T induced edge." She said that she attributed this 'edge' to my having been unhappy acting in the binary male role when it was at odds with who I felt myself to be. She brought this up as she had just had a quite emotional discussion with our daughter who had been very upset. She apparently said that she couldn't deal with or discuss my TG nature or treatment with me, and as a nurse while she could deal with similar patients she couldn't do this with her 'dad'. She said that she just wanted me to remain her father.
My immediate response was to argue and to protest that this was unreasonable for an adult child to expect me to avoid compromising that label or redefining our relationship but now I get it. I need to honour and to respect our relationship and perhaps seek to occur to her in a different manner to how I may occur to my wife, friends, colleagues etc. The fact is we all need to do this but in a very binary world, particularly as a TG I wanted to flip my expression to the opposite binary without respecting or taking the time to reframe our relationship. So in so far as this relationship is concerned I will take my time and be more sensitive to the needs of my daughter whereas in other circumstances I may not. It really is situation and person dependent.
So in summary, non binary is where I am. It is exactly the right place for me on the gender identity continuum given my underlying identity, history and socialisation. I cant see significant further benefit, but I can see a whole lot of pain and risk, if I move to the opposite binary via a full transition so I wont be taking that journey. I am in a far happier place than I ever dreamed possible. I have no dysphoria and now have endless possibilities to authentically express myself in different ways to different people. Without low dose hrt and modern therapies I would be in a whole lot of pain as would many of my key relationships. I am blessed indeed.
Thank you for sharing your journeys and perspectives they have been affirming and empowering. Satinjoy, Shantel, Ativan you make a whole lot of sense and your combined insight has been of enormous benefit.
Aisla
I am at work and cannot reply but these last two posts are so in tune with my own experiences it is amazing
Different for daughters Aisla, must be gentle there, I have one that cannot handle it and two that can. Father figures. Stability. And nursing probably needs that fatherly strength. Its ok for her to need that space.
I would not comment but I have the one daughter in similar conditions, though she has GAD and OCD and there are needs that must be met and the foundational rock of the family must remain a rock. I can let my hair down in here.... not with her. More with the wife. I took her with me to therapy and it rocked my world, and that was just over fingernails, but there were many keys given that day. She cannot validate my trans but she can my fatherhood. I cannot look for approval from her for trans, but integrity and strength, huge respect by her there.
Such powerful identification with you wonderful people.
God bless, love to all here.