l always thought a mtf vagina and a cis vagina appear the same and can never be clocked until recently i met with a new pre-op friend who was telling me she has 4 friends all Suporn girls and they all got clocked. still don't understand WHAT exactly about the vagina does them get cloced.
Did you post-op ever get clocked by your vagina? What was your partner's reaction? Did he back out? Continued? Or kept on asking? Did you deny as hell or told the truth? What was their overall reaction?
I can hear the surgeons lining up to quote Dr McCoy from Star Trek "I'm a doctor not a miracle worker" - basically what you end up with is a close approximation but not identical - for example the clitoris will be wrong- the introitus will lack the muscular ring at the opening - the vagina will be lined with exoskin - the lining epithelium will lack gobet cells and mucus glands to say nothing of scar tissue etc etc ... In short there will be a number of ways that someone with a little basic anatomical knowledge could tell.
Years ago when trans was less well known people wouldn't spot it because they weren't looking for it, now the downside of greater acceptance and knowledge is that people are aware and once you are - spotting it is very very very easy! I have seen the results of almost every major surgeon and without exception I could spot them almost instantly. Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast. You start with one set of anatomy the surgeon gets you closer to another - but there are some things they just can't change and that's the way it is.
I had an intersex condition - as a result my bone structure appearance and voice is pretty darn undetectable - but an intimate exam by one of my medical colleagues would out me in an instant. So this applies just as much to me.
Quote from: Doctorwho? on September 23, 2013, 01:47:46 PM
I had an intersex condition - as a result my bone structure appearance and voice is pretty darn undetectable - but an intimate exam by one of my medical colleagues would out me in an instant. So this applies just as much to me.
Absolutely, and of course any OB-GYN would pick up on it pretty quickly, best not to ask for a pelvic exam unless there is a real good medical reason for it. Other than that, no ordinary male or female will pick up on it, there's no way!
Unfortunately I think there is a lot more knowledge out there now and quite a number of ordinary people do. Yes I am a medic and therefore arguably a special case but actually it's always good to remember that you are relying on ignorance... And while that may hold good 90% of the time there is always the danger of finding that person who does know about these things...
Quote from: Doctorwho? on September 23, 2013, 02:08:41 PM
Unfortunately I think there is a lot more knowledge out there now and quite a number of ordinary people do. Yes I am a medic and therefore arguably a special case but actually it's always good to remember that you are relying on ignorance... And while that may hold good 90% of the time there is always the danger of finding that person who does know about these things...
Uh-yeah, but the secret is to keep your panties on! :D ;D :laugh: I have been asked to look at some of my girlfriend's vaginoplasty's one done by Brassard and another by Toby Meltzer, I'm no expert but am ashamed to say that I have eyeballed a lot more cis female vaginas up close and personel over the years and I didn't see anything but exceptional vaginas on the MtF women staring back at me. So generally speaking, unless you are having your vagina or clitoris inspected by a healthcare professional you will not be outed by your SRS job as long as it's sufficiently healed.
Shan I think you are missing the point.
As far as I'm concerned my corrective surgery was over and done 30 years ago and anyway it was significantly different from what you folks have to have so-basically mine is not the issue - but the original poster was asking how she had been clocked by someone she was having sex with ... So unless there is something I'm missing here ....
obviously she had her panties off!!!!
I just threw in the comment about me as an aside to soften the blow of the bad news to her and anyone else that their vag is not going to be undetectable if they take their Knicks off sorry but it just isn't!
Like I say most young lay people that I know know a LOT more than about this you slightly older folk seem to imagine... Sorry don't want to be ageist or anything but the world has moved on quite a lot since the internet gave everyone access to the info.
Well, now I'm a sad panda. :(
I've always heard SRS is very realistic and spotting it would not be very easy. That's what I've seen through my research and from those who have gotten it done. While I understand nothing is perfect and professionals can tell, I didn't think it was this easy to spot and distinguish.
Easier than most people imagine once you know what to look for ... And THAT is the problem - because a lot of men view online porn where there are no shortage of postoperative trans girls that they can see - so quite a lot of people do know. Now - that isn't everyone... But if you put yourself at risk by not telling someone your background on the basis of relying on them being ignorant it could go badly wrong. That's all I am saying.
Yes the results are good - but they are not perfect. They are as good as current techniques will allow - but not perfect and personally I think it's a good idea to go into this with realistic understanding of what can and can't be done otherwise you are potentially going to be disappointed.
It's good but not perfect.
Quote from: Doctorwho? on September 23, 2013, 02:49:57 PM
Easier than most people imagine once you know what to look for ... And THAT is the problem - because a lot of men view online porn where there are no shortage of postoperative trans girls that they can see - so quite a lot of people do know. Now - that isn't everyone... But if you put yourself at risk by not telling someone your background on the basis of relying on them being ignorant it could go badly wrong. That's all I am saying.
Yes the results are good - but they are not perfect. They are as good as current techniques will allow - but not perfect and personally I think it's a good idea to go into this with realistic understanding of what can and can't be done otherwise you are potentially going to be disappointed.
It's good but not perfect.
Yeah, I understand that nothing is perfect. I have post op friends, so I have been very inquisitive about this and have a good idea. Still, it's disheartening that it's so detectable that men who simply watch porn can detect the differences. I didn't think that was the case.
Quote from: Doctorwho? on September 23, 2013, 02:30:59 PM
Shan I think you are missing the point.
The original poster was asking how she had been clocked by someone she was having sex with ... So unless there is something I'm missing here ....
obviously she had her panties off!!!!
Really??? You'd better read it again!
My female therapist is also a MD and she so some vaginas from a German plastic surgeon which looked absolut natural to her. I also saw hus work and it was amazing. Of course you find differences but only if you have some medical knowledge and if you look for differences. The vagina even gets wet when you are aroused. Even his scars can be nearly invisible. He uses a special method which has some similarities but also some differences to Suporn
I already visited him and I got a date for surgery. I did not started HRT yet but his waiting list is long.
Lara
Quote from: learningtolive on September 23, 2013, 02:37:41 PM
Well, now I'm a sad panda. :(
I've always heard SRS is very realistic and spotting it would not be very easy. That's what I've seen through my research and from those who have gotten it done. While I understand nothing is perfect and professionals can tell, I didn't think it was this easy to spot and distinguish.
Hairless crotches tend to reveal the scars in greater detail.
The opening post is without any evidence, so it is hearsay. Nothing to get too worried about.
I don't have sex with people other than my partner and I prefer women anyway, so "he" won't be giving me any kind of reactions. ;)
My insurance company threw a fit and required that I see a gynecologist to justify why someone my age (36) was menopausal and needed an endocrinologist and HRT. Since I've switched insurance post-transition, they do have me listed as female with no qualifiers. I fully expected to go in and explain my situation, and that my medical records would have included the relevant information that I was 14 months post-op... and instead the gyn bustled in, briskly poked a speculum in and did a quick exam, looked up, and said "No problem, I'll write you a letter." When I SAW the letter, it listed me as having had a hysterectomy and oophorectomy, and certified that there was internal evidence of that surgery! I had to call back and tell the office there'd been some mistake, and the doctor called me back to say she'd rewrite the letter to simply "surgical menopause" but sounded like she thought I was making up the explanation. It was a really weird experience all around.
To be fair, the external scarring is essentially invisible, the internal is apparently located more or less appropriately (?), and the gyn didn't go rummaging about to examine my clit (which would be unprofessional in the context).
My GP who saw everything initially also told me that the only giveaway on an internal exam was some half-healed scar tissue. And I was in the
ER at about 10 months post-op with a nasty GI bug and had 2 nurses and one doctor who'd seen me with my pants off (...nobody wants to know why), and they still also ran a pregnancy test on the urine sample they'd taken to check for UTI. I was too sick to argue at that point
and looked like hell and my voice was awful, too. I have no clue why nobody twigged to anything there.
Aside from my own experiences, I've seen photos of one other friend's results, and at least in 2-D it looked perfectly ordinary.
Quote from: learningtolive on September 23, 2013, 02:37:41 PM
Well, now I'm a sad panda. :(
I've always heard SRS is very realistic and spotting it would not be very easy. That's what I've seen through my research and from those who have gotten it done. While I understand nothing is perfect and professionals can tell, I didn't think it was this easy to spot and distinguish.
Have hope that we may have some medical breakthroughs in the next few years. They can already grow organs in labs, which will eventually negate the need for organ donors.
I was "read" in my health plan because they had been treating me as a male for over 30 years, and I had my post surgery letter to put on their records at the time I had a yeast issue two weeks PO. Turns out the gynecologist had recently spent a few days learning specifics about post ops since the health plan will be funding and eventually doing SRS next year. (The story of my life that I am too soon in things, I paid for my own last January.) The gynecologist had to do a full check with a speculum and saw the narrowest little scar line pretty deep inside, but the rest compared with her other post menopausal patients very well. For a diabetic, I had almost no scarring and very good wound closure, but a couple of potential scar lines sure itched until the sutures came out.
I do know a couple of Suporn girls too who have been clocked, but it was not the vagina that did it all by itself, it was a set of horizontal lips above their necks that did it and not the vertical four beneath their pubic bones.
Quote from: Vicky on September 23, 2013, 05:59:39 PM
I do know a couple of Suporn girls too who have been clocked, but it was not the vagina that did it all by itself, it was a set of horizontal lips above their necks that did it and not the vertical four beneath their pubic bones.
Yeah, if there are other things that makes someone suspicious, then they may be adding two and two together. That's kind of what I was thinking when I first read this topic earlier.
Quote from: Evolving Beauty on September 23, 2013, 10:44:23 AM
l always thought a mtf vagina and a cis vagina appear the same and can never be clocked until recently i met with a new pre-op friend who was telling me she has 4 friends all Suporn girls and they all got clocked. still don't understand WHAT exactly about the vagina does them get cloced.
Did you post-op ever get clocked by your vagina? What was your partner's reaction? Did he back out? Continued? Or kept on asking? Did you deny as hell or told the truth? What was their overall reaction?
I knew of a guy who told his girlfriend that he was able to tell she was trans by her vagina. He knew she was trans and he felt it was better to lie to her and tell her that he was able to tell by her vagina than by the fact that what he really noticed was the way she carried herself, her personality, her voice and a dozen other little "tells", some that he was able to consciously identify and others that were harder to explain. But he felt it was important to let her know that he knew she was trans and that lying to her and telling her that it was her vagina would cause her less emotional harm.
I know of another guy who found out from a mutual friend that his girlfriend had transitioned and he too absolutely had to let her know that he knew but the person who spilled the beans on the girl made him promise not to tell her who told him so instead of going to his girlfriend and saying, "Your best friend told me you are really a trans woman and even showed me a picture of you from before you transitioned." He lied and told her that he could tell her vagina was a neo-vagina.
In my experience it is nearly impossible to tell a Suporn or a Chettawut vagina from original equipment. My Bowers vagina very obviously had something seriously wrong with it. Some of Marci's work isn't as bad but if you want something that looks normal and even attractive I would stick with Suporn or Chettawut. The Montreal results look slightly better than Marci's more recent work. Have a look for yourself as pretty much all the doctors provide images of their results and compare those results to ordinary vaginas.
Thousands of men have seen my vagina since I do adult work and I only get compliments. My vagina stopped outting me after I had my revision with Chettawut. If you look at porn you may have even seen me and not known.
Quote from: Kate G on September 23, 2013, 06:52:03 PM
I knew of a guy who told his girlfriend that he was able to tell she was trans by her vagina. He knew she was trans and he felt it was better to lie to her and tell her that he was able to tell by her vagina than by the fact that what he really noticed was the way she carried herself, her personality, her voice and a dozen other little "tells", some that he was able to consciously identify and others that were harder to explain. But he felt it was important to let her know that he knew she was trans and that lying to her and telling her that it was her vagina would cause her less emotional harm.
I know of another guy who found out from a mutual friend that his girlfriend had transitioned and he too absolutely had to let her know that he knew but the person who spilled the beans on the girl made him promise not to tell her who told him so instead of going to his girlfriend and saying, "Your best friend told me you are really a trans woman and even showed me a picture of you from before you transitioned." He lied and told her that he could tell her vagina was a neo-vagina.
In my experience it is nearly impossible to tell a Suporn or a Chettawut vagina from original equipment. My Bowers vagina very obviously had something seriously wrong with it. Some of Marci's work isn't as bad but if you want something that looks normal and even attractive I would stick with Suporn or Chettawut. The Montreal results look slightly better than Marci's more recent work. Have a look for yourself as pretty much all the doctors provide images of their results and compare those results to ordinary vaginas.
Thousands of men have seen my vagina since I do adult work and I only get compliments. My vagina stopped outting me after I had my revision with Chettawut. If you look at porn you may have even seen me and not known.
;)
Kate -- I am sorry to hear that about your experience with Dr. Bowers, because I am one of her girls from last January, and I have nothing to complain about and so much to be happy about. I have all the parts, and now that my pubic hair is back even one faint scar line is under cover.
there is so much ignorance in this thread. there is no way you can clock a post vagina.. especially if they have went to one of the top surgeons. some of these girls that were "clocked" vaginas must all be butchered. ruling has been made. vaginas all come in different varieties. even women who are born in the right body vaginas are sometimes ugly looking. get real. most of us are women here. some may be simply be drag. being happy and completed. our goal isnt to be like everyone else. just complete. :) oh .. imo
Quote from: lovelessheart on September 24, 2013, 06:39:38 AM
there is so much ignorance in this thread. there is no way you can clock a post vagina.. especially if they have went to one of the top surgeons. some of these girls that was 'cloaked' vagina must all be butched. i small a troll and it smells awfully like stool. ruling has been made. vaginas all come in different varieties. even women who are born in the right body vaginas are sometimes ugly looking. get real. most of us are women here. some may be simply be drag. being happy and completed. our goal isnt to be like everyone else. just complete. :) oh .. imo
I absolutely agree, I had several boyfriends over the years and none suspected I was trans, I guy did suspect, but it wasn't my vagina that clocked me, but betrayed by somebody. I dated my fiancé for 18months and he had no idea, couldn't tell the difference, when I did eventually disclose my history he didn't believe me, he had other girlfriends before me, he is now my husband, Iv asked him heaps of times how my vagina compares to other women, with a twinkle in his eye he always replies ''its the best pussy he's ever had'' his words, not mine.
Its given me great confidence as a woman, all our vaginas are different, my goal was to be a complete woman, I'm now complete.
My neighbor has a Suporn vajayjay and she showed me. It was perfect. However things like her pelvis would get her clocked, not necessarily the operated part itself.
Vaginas do come in all shapes and sizes, but I think that there are some neovaginas that can be clocked. Some are much harder to tell. It all depends on the vagina really. All we can hope is that when we lay back and think of England the vagina is not a give away. Well this is for all of you post-op anyways. I hope that when I get to have mine I will have one that looks good, but hell will just be glad to not have a penis.
Eh, people seem to think that the worst type of insult anyone can tell a lady is that something belonging to her looks like it's mannish, belongs on a man, that she is "actually a man", whatever
women are under a LOT of scrutiny by misogynistic jerks who really don't know the natural variety vaginas come in.
And yes surgeries are more of an approximation but still, count me as +1 in saying that only someone knowledgeable about female anatomy would probably notice, which rules out a good portion of people. Anyone just seeing it in passing isn't going to go "OMG WHERE DID YOU BUY THAT BEAUTIFUL VAGINA???" unless they know about your journey already, of course ;)
I plan to keep the lighting limited! ;D
Heee Heee
He is going hell for leather you are both having a great time he is about to get his rocks off and stops and says----
I don't think this is a real one!
Right!!
This stuff obviously only pertains to those who are or plan to go completely stealth. Personally, I wouldn't want to be in a sexual situation with anyone unless they knew my complete background.
It's nice to be stealth in public, but my genitals are not and will never be open for public examination ;)
Yes they can be clocked sometimes, one does not need to be a doctor.
They can be pretty close to the ideal, but there will be minor differences.
Getting a good cosmetic revision may help.
Quote from: Jennygirl on September 29, 2013, 06:17:40 AM
but my genitals are not and will never be open for public examination ;)
The case is different for sex workers as me who need to deal with potential transphobics/homophobics every single day to survive.
I can speak with authority since I have studied sexual dimorphism for years. It is NOT the neo-vagina what gets you clocked. Let me reiterate it: It is NOT the neovagina that gets people clocked. Unless, it is butchery, the ones I have seen and the one I have work perfectly fine. Think about it: imagine a truck driver with a perfect neo-vagina. What do you think it is going to clock the truck driver?
There are lots of urban myths about neovaginas. I can orgasm. I was told I would never be able to orgasm, but I can, and it is very intense. It is not psychological. It is physical.
I also get wet. However, if someone suspects about me, it is NEVER the vagina and it is NEVER the hands, as people think. Look, do you really believe that if you put manly hands on a genetic female she will be mistaken for a man? They might say she has manly hands, but she will still be a female. The clocking happens for other factors that have to do with voice and bone structure. Not simply being thin and small, but the shape of the cranium, the facial bones, are different. SOme are lucky to be able to get rid of masculine traits with FFS. SOme, no matter how many rounds of FFS they have, have a masculine, long skull.
However, there is a certain sadistic component in people, especially guys, who want trans people to think that yes, you can tell by the vagina. For a typical, average Joe, the thought of a vagina that used to be a penis is revolting. That is the way it is. The scariest thing for an average Joe is not to be able to tell.
A surgical vagina is higher positioned than a bio vagina. Simply because the surgical vagina is positioned where the penis used to be.
And no swelling of labia majora and minora when aroused more often than not not getting wet etcetc
Quote from: Dahlia on May 20, 2015, 07:38:54 AM
A surgical vagina is higher positioned than a bio vagina. Simply because the surgical vagina is positioned where the penis used to be.
And no swelling of labia majora and minora when aroused more often than not not getting wet etcetc
Maybe in the old days, not today. I remember reading an article that said this perception was caused by a hand-drawn picture by a Johns Hopkins Dr in the mid 60s, which was not drawn to scale.
My ex as well as my current wife and I have looked at pics of post-op and OEM vjj's, they couldn't tell which was which.
Also, the neovagina is - by definition - going to have to correspond with the opening in the pelvis which permits access to the necessary space. The "male" pelvis is typically narrower with a smaller opening, but all that means is that there's likely to be *more* variation in vaginal placement among cis women. As Beth Andrea says, I haven't seen any obvious consistent differences, and I've been up close and personal with cis women's vaginas as well. I think another source of misunderstanding is that the penis shaft continues below the skin and deeper into the body; the neovagina is *not* placed where the penis "root" is at the base of the mons, and in fact I don't even have any scarring or other tells at that location - I'm not sure how!
(Funny thing is that in another thread people were insisting that a neovagina whose labia *did* swell and flush was clockable because that doesn't happen in cis women. :) Personally, I think that [again] the huge variation in cis vaginas and vulvas is sufficient to encompass most of the quirks of neovaginas as well. There are cis women without inner labia, cis women without a fourchette, cis women with scars... As with many things about being trans, it's all about the percentages, and as long as there aren't TOO many differences from the norm nothing will stand out as odd.)
Quote from: teresita on May 16, 2015, 07:31:46 PM
especially guys, who want trans people to think that yes, you can tell by the vagina. For a typical, average Joe, the thought of a vagina that used to be a penis is revolting. That is the way it is. The scariest thing for an average Joe is not to be able to tell.
Maybe this helps explaining:
gendercare dot com/library/italiano_paper1.html
"From months to sometimes years after skin grafting, the graft loses all of its skin properties and adapts to its environment, becoming a mucosa... (Sherfey, 1973)."
"they also showed that some artificial vaginas are capable of lubricating as well and as rapidly as any normally constituted vaginal barrel .. (Masters & Johnson, 1966)"
"Those post-operative male-to-female transsexuals who amuse themselves with the peculiar statement that they still have a penis, but that it's just turned inside-out should note that not only do they not have a penis, but they don't even have skin of the penis any more ....
It also responds to hormones in an identical way as does a normal vagina..."
hugs
Laura, thank you so much for posting this. You did me a huge favor. In fact, I can't stress this enough. I am very satisfied with my neovagina and I KNOW that is NOT what clocks me when I get clocked. It is NEVER that. Now, of course, if someone clocks me from something else, they will start looking at the neovagina for clues...
In my experience, not when it comes to Heterosexual Men. I feel that most of them don't care or don't care enough to know the difference. They are so excited at the prospect of being with a woman sexually.
I know my OBGYN in New York told me that my surgery looks incredibly authentic and so have my boyfriends. I feel like we are our own worst enemy at times. D:
Mine's neves been clocked & I've been with my share of guys.
obviously you will not be clocked by your vagina but it would be other things and all of that counting up with each other that will clock you
Quote from: doll89 on May 23, 2015, 09:21:25 AM
obviously you will not be clocked by your vagina but it would be other things and all of that counting up with each other that will clock you
Absolutely!
can you please elaborate on this?
that counting up with each other that will clock you
what does that mean counting up with each other? I am NOT saying that I disagree, I probably agree if you refer to the cumulative effect, but I am not certain I understood correctly.
Thanks
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on September 28, 2013, 09:53:00 PM
My neighbor has a Suporn vajayjay and she showed me. It was perfect. However things like her pelvis would get her clocked, not necessarily the operated part itself.
OMG such a witty and funny remark! I never heard the word "vajayjay" before, it is so funny! Do you know any other funny words that don't sound obscene or tasteless, for body parts? A thumbs up for that comment BTW, it really lightened up my day!
Cheers
Bibi
Note: I realize you posted the quoted reply on September 28, 2013, so I am not too hopeful about getting a response almost two years later lol
Quote from: teresita on May 23, 2015, 04:12:48 PM
can you please elaborate on this?
that counting up with each other that will clock you
what does that mean counting up with each other? I am NOT saying that I disagree, I probably agree if you refer to the cumulative effect, but I am not certain I understood correctly.
Thanks
yes im from holland i dont know what cumulative means but i mean if you wouldnt have pics from your childhood, if you maybe have large feet or a small adamsapple or scar in that area, if they see you taking pills (hormones) and then spot a tiny scar or something different about your vagina, that all together might make him/her realize and clock you
oh, okay, thank you my Duth friend. Yes, you are totally right. I do not have adam's apple, luckily, but I get clocked by other things, for instance, I cannot put the finger on it, but when I watch myself in a video, total man.
In my day to day interactions most people dont notice or if they do dont care I suppose.Actually I dont think about it when I'm talking with someone so I probably dont know!As a 6 foot redhead I may be the elephant in the room but maybe I project something.I'm in a long term relationship so only my partner sees me intimately and they seem happy enough!It's just odd trying to relate passing priviledge to whats in your knickers.Like some other posters I would have to be open and honest with anyone in a new realtionship.I just have this mad image of ones partner whilst in the middle of his "vinegar strokes" stopping and heading downstairs with a magnifying glass and head torch just to check that all is ok with the good ship vjj. mmmmm.....................
Quote from: GoneGrl on May 20, 2015, 07:56:05 PM
In my experience, not when it comes to Heterosexual Men. I feel that most of them don't care or don't care enough to know the difference. They are so excited at the prospect of being with a woman sexually.
I know my OBGYN in New York told me that my surgery looks incredibly authentic and so have my boyfriends. I feel like we are our own worst enemy at times. D:
Absolutely, my experience too, I remember a guy commenting ''gosh you are a tight girl'' he was on the large size, some cis women vaginas can be tight, mine looks incredibly real and natural and my husband never complains, we are our own worse enemy.
Of course it can be clocked
Well Mine has never been clocked. The first time I had sex with my current boyfriend, he just commented how tight my vagina was. He actually loves how tight I am and says its the best he has ever had the pleasure of entering.
HE says it looks like any other vagina he has seen before. I even get wet like cis-women do.
I'm sure it also depends on the vulva and vagina in question; hell, there are even cis women who report having their vagina "clocked." If the question is "does it ever happen," clearly, the answer is yes. But if the question is "can there be such a thing as a neovagina/vulva that even an expert can't tell"... the answer is also yes.
Quote from: Blush on May 28, 2015, 07:20:39 PM
Of course it can be clocked
Have you experience being clocked, my own experience being told by a gyno many years ago, he was only able to tell by doing a very detailed examination on the vulva and vagina that I have a neovagina.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on May 29, 2015, 10:38:45 AM
I'm sure it also depends on the vulva and vagina in question; hell, there are even cis women who report having their vagina "clocked." If the question is "does it ever happen," clearly, the answer is yes. But if the question is "can there be such a thing as a neovagina/vulva that even an expert can't tell"... the answer is also yes.
I couldn't explain it better, thank you for that Jenna Marie.
Quote from: bibilinda on May 23, 2015, 05:12:45 PM
OMG such a witty and funny remark! I never heard the word "vajayjay" before, it is so funny! Do you know any other funny words that don't sound obscene or tasteless, for body parts? A thumbs up for that comment BTW, it really lightened up my day!
You can try kitty...
Quote from: Blush on May 28, 2015, 07:20:39 PM
Of course it can be clocked
Hm... this sounds like in theory it could...
in practise as others have said some gyns told its good, also due to variance.
hugs
women have their vaginas clocked? It sounds like a fabrication, to me. I have never, ever encountered in my whole life a genetic woman saying that a guy told them that their vagina looked like a post op vagina.
Of course, if it is complete butchery, it will be clocked. For instance, I have seen many, many vaginas done in Asia that literally looked like tucked up scrotum.
However, the point is that people get clocked by OTHER things, and once the OTHER details enter into the picture, the neo-vagina gets clocked automatically, but it is NEVER the neo-vagina to set the alarm off, so to speak, unless it is butchery.
Teresita : I've run across a handful of cis women who've said they had a guy be rude to them in that regard. (Basically, one-night stands where he says something afterward about how their vulva doesn't look "natural.") One was missing inner labia, which does happen in cis women but not everyone knows that; a couple more had had to be stitched up after childbirth and it left scars. Some guys are ignorant, is the lesson here. :)
Heck, I also knew a guy who said any woman who ever scratched her crotch had an STD, and the thing is a warm moist area is sometimes gonna be itchy...
I do agree with you overall that it's rarely the vulva and vagina that's the *first* thing to make a guy start wondering.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on May 31, 2015, 03:35:02 PM
Teresita : I've run across a handful of cis women who've said they had a guy be rude to them in that regard. (Basically, one-night stands where he says something afterward about how their vulva doesn't look "natural.") One was missing inner labia, which does happen in cis women but not everyone knows that; a couple more had had to be stitched up after childbirth and it left scars. Some guys are ignorant, is the lesson here. :)
Heck, I also knew a guy who said any woman who ever scratched her crotch had an STD, and the thing is a warm moist area is sometimes gonna be itchy...
I do agree with you overall that it's rarely the vulva and vagina that's the *first* thing to make a guy start wondering.
Now I'm picturing Dr. Girlfriend from Venture Bros. scratching herself, during breakfast. Laughing and eating, not such a good combination...[emoji23]
Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
honestly, I don't think the average guy will know any better, as long as he can put his manhood inside you.. he is cool. None of my sexual partners suspected a thing.
Overal, the way we are clocked is because of our own insecurity and paranoia. That is the main clock signal we ourselves beam out.
I never had a guy clock my vag, because:
1. Guys don't stare at it. They rather avoid looking at it.
2. When up close, it's still dark. Scars can only be seen in daylight. Much light. No guy ever sees it.
I don't believe in the cumulative effect. I've seen cis-woman with a voice, size, height, and feet/hands of a crab fisher, and they never got clocked. Why? because NO-ONE expects a trans* person! no one is looking for it, it is only in our minds.
This whole clocking thing is mostly in the mind. Just drop it. If a guy/gal is having sex with you, enjoy it and don't worry so much.
Mine has never been clocked...speeding or otherwise.lol
Seriously, no man has ever ever said anything or noticed anything out of the ordinary, and with the exception of my first husband, none ever knew i was transgendered.
However, i do NOT sleep with or date "players"...ever. Those kinda guys watch way too much porn, screw anything that hops, skips or flies, and are way way too insecure with their own sexuality Not to be a danger to a trans woman. You could be the most passable 18yeat old post op but I'm pretty certain they would clock you. I mean, there are faint scars along the vag, and if you're hairless as is in vogue now, he might notice up close. Normal guys dont notice anything, and if you come at them in victorias secret angel wings and high heels, they'll be so busy thanking god that they wouldnt notice if you had three vags.lol
Player guys are very insecure and tend to be flighty, so you never know how they'd react if they discovered you were transgendered.
Anyways, I dont think medical people would clock you either. Vags come in so many styles that they cant tell one from another. I didnt know, but dr Menard gave me a faux cervix too so even a new gyno wouldnt know unless i told. Plus, if you ever feel insecure, you can say you had a vag rejuvenation...its big these days.
Thank god i'm old enough now i can say im post menopausal so no ovaries, etc. Very few look at me funny, cuz 40 is young for the pause, but truthfully everyone in my fam has had their hysto's very young because of cancer issues...so its very plausable for me to have had an early hysto too... Thats a good way to pad your medical file if you're a lady looking to stay stealth even with docs.
This is a topic that has bothered me from day 1 post-op.
I had my GRS by Marci in San Mateo in 2011.
When she did my pre surgery exam she had to look at "the thing" and she was like "Hmmm.. Yeah, this is going to be a challenge."
I had almost no donor material to start with. It had shrank from years of HRT and disuse to being very small. It wasn't much bigger than an enlarged clitoris. She said she would do the best she could but she warned me the results would be sub-par. What choice did I have?
Basically it doesn't even remotely look natural or normal. I have no depth and it's so tight that it's impossible for me to have sex. I'll never be able to have a sex with a man. But that's ok, I dated the last one ever a few years ago. He was such a jerk that I decided I'm better off becoming a lesbian. (that's another issue I'm freaking out about)
I wasn't able to have the hair removed before surgery as it was strongly recommended to me to do. I had no where to go to have it done and I was too embarrassed and too terrified of the pain (I had had some facial laser done and it HURT. I had some electrolysis done in the 90's and it HURT.)
So now there's hair inside my vaginal cavity and it looks gross. I have no clitoris visible, it's completely recessed deep inside of me. I've just tried to pretend I don't know any of these things. Now it's just a matter of I no longer have male parts and it's only a place to pee out of. It really serves no other purpose for me. I have no vulva either. It just looks all wrong in every way.
A few days ago I decided I wanted to really look and see what it looks like so I took a little hair clipper and put a plastic guard on it and I trimmed all the hair very short and thankfully I didn't damage anything. I put a leg up on the counter and got a handheld mirror and what I saw made me cry. There's a hair lined cavern with three holes. The top one looks like the remains of what was removed, if you know what I mean. It's pretty obvious that it's not a normal or natural vagina and I would DIE if anyone would ever see it. The guy I dated looked at it and he said "well, all vaginas are different." and that's all he would say. We didn't have sex because he couldn't penetrate me, it's far too tight, it's painful to even put a finger in and even then it only has about an inch of depth.
I don't know if it can be "fixed" because there's nothing there to work with. I'm afraid of surgery because it's scary. And I'm afraid of dying in surgery or having that awake while under thing, or the pain and of course the expense and 4,000 mile round trip. I won't fly and can't drive long distances so travel is a problem I don't know what to do about. I supposed I could go Amtrak and do taxi's once I got there. But still. I'm don't know that I'll ever be able to have it fixed.
I'm afraid for medical people to ever see it. And I'm afraid to try to date anyone. I want to find a girl friend but I wouldn't want her to see it. I'm afraid to TRY to find a girl friend because while I could get away with not coming out as ts, I couldn't ever explain my messed up vagina to her or anyone else, ever.
I'm relieved to be rid of the boy bits but I'm extremely sad and disappointed in the results of my surgery.
I wonder if anyone else has had a similar problem where their results were very disappointing initially but they were able to have it corrected by revisions?
Thanks..
I'm sorry for what happened to you - a surgeon should make it clear what is possible to do and what isn't, and what can you realistically expect.
There are two options if there isn't a lot of penile skin available: IF a person have enough scortal skin available, it's ideal to perform non-penile-inversion, like dr. Suporn's technique. And if there is also lack of scrotal skin (reason longer time on hormones), the only solution would be sigmoid colon technique. The third option is to create a cosmetic-only SRS, and use the available tissue for outside apperance instead of neovaginal wall.
Your only solution (if you want to have a male partner) would be sigmoid-colon SRS revision. You should also ask about possible outside appearance correction, maybe there is something that could be done.
:police:
Folks - need I remind you that this is a support site? Please understand that the way you might phrase your responses, even if they contain useful information may come across as unsupportive and even insulting.
First, have a *hug*
Well its good you are glad you no longer have male parts.
Considering hair, there are studies saying that tissue might turn into mucosa. So it might be possible some or a lot of it gets lost over a long time.
And there are revisions to get it off.
Concerning labia, quite a few people consider a second surgery to have more pronounced labia.
The position of the clit might also be changed then.
Concerning depth, there is either the sigmoid colon technique...
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,188226.msg1706134.html#msg1706134
but you might inquire with a few people who had this surgery, for experiences with each doctor.
There are groups on the internet.
There are quite a few points that might be considered imo...
or it might be possible some surgeons do a revision using skin grafts.
tmeltzer dot com/mtf-vaginal-deepening.html ( from one posting his price was quoted as lower as a full surgery)
and there should be others... an inquiry might be possible...
Here was a link to a surgeon in europe:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,169037.msg1478769.html#msg1478769
He made some revisions from other surgeons.
Just do your due diligence on each surgeon you consider...
You might contact a few surgeons and ask them of their opinion.
Its not that uncommon that people ask for a revision.
I'd say don't be afraid to travel... there are many people who do, and have successful results .
And the same for surgery... there are many now... its not a rare event any more...
hugs
Aimee : I'm so sorry that happened to you!
Well, sigmoid colon probably is the best choice for adding depth, if that's what you decide you want (and would solve the hair problem neatly at the same time). If you choose not to have depth, since you've been making do along those lines so far, you could probably get it revised to be hair-free and slightly shallower but more aesthetically pleasing to you. There are cis women who are born without much vaginal cavity, and it's likely to be unusual but not out you to lesbian partners if you chose to explain it that way.
As for the external genitalia, the good news is that a secondary labiaplasty probably would tidy up almost everything. Surgeons who specialize in revisions can work miracles with making the labia more defined and anatomically correct, etc. (The recessed clit is another feature common in cis women, so if it's functional you might well be able to leave it be.) Meltzer apparently does a lot of surgeries like that, and Brassard as well, depending on which is closer to you - not sure where you are, but 4000 miles isn't likely to be required. You might need a skin graft to supplement what you already have, but both surgeons are good at taking one that's discreet and small.
I can't recall the details, but I there's a TV show in the USA called Botched, and one recent episode featured the porn star Kimber James having SRS revision with Gary Alter.
I sure hope there are no detail signs after healing up. I'm hopeful for a normal life as a complete hetrosexual woman. I'm discussing surgery with a Dr. KeeLee MacPhee of Raleigh NC. She seems very experienced however not as well known as some of the other names.
I really don't want to go through the risk and what I would assume to be, traumatic process of the sigmoid colon revision. That really frightens me. I've really come to accept that I won't be able to have sexual relations with men and I'm ok with that, I've had a lot of time to reflect upon that and I've decided that men just aren't what I'm interested in.
When I first started HRT I went through my second puberty and as my brain was being rewired by estrogen I took notice of them just like teenage girls do. I experimented a little but I've lost interest in them for many reasons.
I've concluded that I will choose the course of soft butch interested in femme cis-females. So lesbian sex if any sex.
Some butch women chose not to be on the receiving end of sex, IE a "Stone Butch". So I would be like a combo of soft and stone.
Anyway...
My clitoris does work despite being way up inside of me. I just had to figure out how to work it. The mood strikes me about twice a year to um, have a little tension relief.
If I ever do go back for revision I am going to go for repairing the appearance so it looks more natural.
As for the hair, it's not internal inside my vaginal canal, it's in the opening before that.
It's hard to describe my results without being graphic but think of it like a funnel. There's a large open where I guess the um, evil twins used to reside. And inside that initial opening, the wider part of that imaginary "funnel" is where the hair is. So it's like a hair funnel with three holes deeper into it rather than just one.
I made an extremely basic & crude (I have no talent for art) drawing to sort of illustrate how it is.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FsnnT8pP.jpg&hash=4264eb50aa228cae39576582420c822731967944)
One of the things that I was told was that I have a pelvis deformity from an old, severe injury and that would restrict the potential diameter of my vaginal canal. At the time they were sending us home with a set of four dilators in a lavender cloth wrap case. They left out the largest, they told me that there was no way I would ever be able to accommodate it. They told me that even the others would be a problem. And they were. I was never able to graduate beyond the smallest one and that was extremely painful. Eventually I ended up buying my own set of much smaller dilators from a place that helps women with vaginismus. Of those, I can only use the two smallest ones and those are painful. It's been over four years now and I've given up hope of having a functional, useful vagina. Now I just want it to look normal and be left with the ability to orgasm. Penetration is not a big deal for me. I would imagine that it would be expensive and painful to have both a functional and normal appearing vagina. Bowers told me during my intake, like 10 minutes before I went into surgery that she could give me more depth with cadaver skin. I was freaked out by that and didn't have the time to contemplate it fully so I said no way to that. I was put off by it because there had recently been a huge nationwide bust of funeral homes selling bootleg cadaver parts to hospitals and a lot of it was contaminated and diseased, some people ended up with HIV and other horrible diseases because of that. That instantly came to mind because it was fresh in the news at that time and it scared me. In retrospect I wish I had been given more time to think it through. I don't know if I would have chosen differently given the circumstances and what all had been happening.
I did tell her that if she needed to take skin from another part of me to do a graft I was OK with that. She said she would try to avoid doing that if at all possible. She ended up not taking a graft or using cadaver skin in me.
Another issue is that I'm a sufferer of extreme, chronic pain and being laid up in bed for a week is a no go. I can't lay in any bed, I have a hospital type bed and even that is miserable. Consequently I don't sleep much. I take lots of short naps in my chair which is uncomfortable but less so than my bed is.
I can't really blame Bowers for doing a bad job, I know she's done great things for many other women, I think in my case it was just that there wasn't really enough donor material to work with. How in the world anyone could fix what I have to look normal is beyond me considering there's nothing there to work with. Unless they can grow some new flesh from my own stem cells in a petri dish I don't know. I read somewhere they are growing vaginal canals in petri dishes now. Maybe they can do labia and the canal from my own cells? If they can do that I would think that would be the best bet since there would be no rejection issues. Using cadaver flesh I would imagine could be a problem with necrosis so you would have to take lots of antibiotics and antirejection drugs. Sounds too problematic to me.
Well I'm almost 55 and not attractive so men aren't interested in me anyway and there aren't any men in my age range I would ever be attracted to anyway. Adam Levine is not going to be interested in me nor would David Tennant so, no men, no worries. After spending close to $50k ($22k-GRS, $8k-BA, $10k-shrinks, $4k-legal, $2k-travel/lodging and $2k misc) I think I've about reached my spending limits on all this. I have no idea how much revisions would cost.
Mod Edit- Links require prior permission. TOS 1
Oh me, you poor dear. My best to you.
Well outer revisions like revisions of labia and of clit position are fairly common.
And there is really a huge variance in cis vaginas.
You might simply take a photo ( maybe careful if you feel its triggering ) and send it to a few surgeons, asking for their advice.
If necessary they might take skin grafts from you, from different places.
Yes, concerning new methods there is hope for the future.
Concerning penetration and stimulation, you might consider anal play.
There is supposed to be a p/gspot which many people, cis and tg, say its very pleasurable to be stimulated via anal play.
Some even say better than vaginally.
Many people use a dildo with a bent tip. Use only toys designed for that purpose, with a flange or handle... so nothing gets lost in there... and best good silicone...
And if with a partner going slow and using enough lube, and communication afterwards which spots feel best, and which techniques... deeply pressed, or rhythmical stimulation... etc... can lead to really pleasurable experiences.
Many men prefer anally because its really tight in there.
*hugs*
Aimee : Yikes, that's a hell of a price tag. I think revisions are generally cheaper than the full surgery, but it depends on the doctor (Meltzer is very good but relatively expensive, for example). However, if it helps, based on this description you have hair in places that unlucky cis women have hair - it's not *desirable,* but it's not out of normal variation. (I have just one long hair that grows from outside the entrance and curls INSIDE... drives me batty). That means that your main issues are aesthetic, and that's the sort of secondary labiaplasty revision that surgeons specialize in. It might require a skin graft, but if you ever do decide you're interested, it should absolutely be doable.
I have never before heard of using cadaver skin, for exactly the reasons you cite here - rejection, infection, and disease - so I think you made the right decision there. Most surgeons use a skin graft that comes from the patient, and some are quite good at disguising the source so there's no huge scar left at the graft site.
Hi Aimee,
I'm so sorry your SRS turned out badly:(
Did the doc offer the colon SRS before deciding on this technique? Reading about your medical issues, that might have been a better choice despite the longer recovery time.
As far as hair goes, in good news, it goes away in time. I never even knew about electroloysis down there or anything...so imagine my surprise when after my inversion with scrotal graft--viola, there's hair inside the vag-cave:( lol I was a bit upset immediately after the packing came out and I could inspect things with a mirror--but I was so hell-bent on getting SRS, I could care less if I had a bear trap inside there.lol Anyways, with continued use of oral estrogen and vaginal premarin cream, the hair disappeared and the inside became exactly like au-naturelle vag. So don't dispair--there's hope:)
As far as revisions go, get a few opinions before deciding. You don't have to be stuck with a botched surgery. I know a few years ago that Menard/Brassard were doing botched surgical revisions (from other surgeons) at a drastically reduced rate...Dr Menard had a real passion for helping people and was really caring--I think Brassard took on his qualities when Menard retired. Might be a surgeon to investigate if you want to consider a reconstruction.
Sending hugs,
JS
OK I'm now 1 year post-op and replying to this thread. My vagina was NEVER clocked not a single time and is aesthetically perfect, showers of compliments always and not to mention how men love eating it, LOL! Clitoral sensation perfect. The only epic fail was depth. Overall, NO-CLOCKING on my neo-vagina. I'm speaking for myself as a Chettawut girl, other girls' and surgeons may vary.
Quote from: Evolving Beauty on July 09, 2015, 10:50:28 AM
OK I'm now 1 year post-op and replying to this thread. My vagina was NEVER clocked not a single time and is aesthetically perfect, showers of compliments always and not to mention how men love eating it, LOL! Clitoral sensation perfect. The only epic fail was depth. Overall, NO-CLOCKING on my neo-vagina. I'm speaking for myself as a Chettawut girl, other girls' and surgeons may vary.
On depth.
I've read many times, not just on trans info sites that the avg. penis length is only 5 inches.
In my life with the guys I've slept with, I've never come across any much bigger than 5 inches (from guessing), many would be around the 4 to 6 at the most.
So unless you're 3 inches or less there shouldn't be a problem, unless you're trying positions that are made for deep sex, (doggy style, girl on top).
As for botched results, I was reading a ->-bleeped-<- on Kimber James, who I had no idea who she was, turned out she is a porn actor and I took a look, that was a shocking result
Quote from: Nicole on July 09, 2015, 08:33:54 PM
On depth.
I've read many times, not just on trans info sites that the avg. penis length is only 5 inches.
In my life with the guys I've slept with, I've never come across any much bigger than 5 inches (from guessing), many would be around the 4 to 6 at the most.
So unless you're 3 inches or less there shouldn't be a problem, unless you're trying positions that are made for deep sex, (doggy style, girl on top).
As for botched results, I was reading a ->-bleeped-<- on Kimber James, who I had no idea who she was, turned out she is a porn actor and I took a look, that was a shocking result
I'm now a luxury escort and I need to accomodate all sizes and believe me the country where I am right now in Europe have really big stuff as average 6. But thanks god fortunately I know how to handle things. ::)
Quote from: Evolving Beauty on July 09, 2015, 10:50:28 AM
OK I'm now 1 year post-op and replying to this thread. My vagina was NEVER clocked not a single time and is aesthetically perfect, showers of compliments always and not to mention how men love eating it, LOL! Clitoral sensation perfect. The only epic fail was depth. Overall, NO-CLOCKING on my neo-vagina. I'm speaking for myself as a Chettawut girl, other girls' and surgeons may vary.
That's sure nice to see. I so hope for a normal life after GRS & I so enjoy being with men.
Quote from: Evolving Beauty on July 10, 2015, 04:39:16 AM
I'm now a luxury escort and I need to accomodate all sizes and believe me the country where I am right now in Europe have really big stuff as average 6. But thanks god fortunately I know how to handle things. ::)
I think I had sex with approx 35 men since grs Last summer and maybe only one was 6 inches, many were 4 or 5 inches. I do not know the Name of him but I would meet him again for sex. Because I really enjoyed it.I am really sure he enjoyed too :p Size does matter.
Maybe I just become a escort girl too? But I am not beautiful enough :-(
Quote from: Lara1969 on July 16, 2015, 06:01:52 AM
I think I had sex with approx 35 men since grs Last summer ...
:o Hells Bells I must be a serious lightweight then... I've been postop for the best part of 31 years and I've had sex with only 6 people in my entire LIFE! :P
Not implying any criticism by the way. In some ways I wish I was more experienced, but as it happens all of my sex has been in serious monogamous relationships which have lasted anything from months to decades so there just hasn't been time for more.
In some way this is a silly debate anyway. There is no doubt that there are differences that could be spotted if someone really wanted to, but generally speaking most people will have their minds on other things so in practice its unlikely to be a big issue.
I early was diagnosed a Tg by four. I lived as a girl. and took puberty delaying meds at 12, and lived as the and I lived as the girls I was -even before that. Iichelle'm female now at 24.
Michelle
Quote from: Lara1969 on July 16, 2015, 06:01:52 AM
I think I had sex with approx 35 men since grs Last summer and maybe only one was 6 inches, many were 4 or 5 inches...
Hello Lara1969, 35 men since GRS last year? Wow, can you start a new tread and tell us how it all works? How long after GCS did you try out the new parts? Where do you find guys? I am on OK Cupid but men there stop messaging after notifying them of my post-op status.
Thank you,
Anne
Quote from: OOAnne on July 21, 2015, 08:01:24 AM
Hello Lara1969, 35 men since GRS last year? Wow, can you start a new tread and tell us how it all works? How long after GCS did you try out the new parts? Where do you find guys? I am on OK Cupid but men there stop messaging after notifying them of my post-op status.
Thank you,
Anne
That was not difficult. I also had no sex with men from Okcupid. Online dating does not work for me.
We have lots of Clubs and Bars here where you can dance and drink a beer and have sex if you like (it is okay not to have sex there or if you say no to a man it is always respected). That works great :-) I just go there for party with a CIS friend. And sometime I meet a nice guy and maybe.... Condoms are provided for free. I do not have a boy friend.
Quote from: Lara1969 on July 21, 2015, 02:36:28 PM
That was not difficult. I also had no sex with men from Okcupid. Online dating does not work for me.
We have lots of Clubs and Bars here where you can dance and drink a beer and have sex if you like (it is okay not to have sex there or if you say no to a man it is always respected). That works great :-) I just go there for party with a CIS friend. And sometime I meet a nice guy and maybe.... Condoms are provided for free. I do not have a boy friend.
OMG I need to move!! Where on earth do they have those kind of clubs? I think our age is close. Born in 1968.
When does the pain subside enough to allow for sexual intercourse after GCS? Do these guys care you are a trans. woman?
Quote from: OOAnne link=topic=149304.msg1717k415#msg1717415 date=1437522361
OMG I need to move!! Where on earth do they have those kind of clubs? I think our age is close. Born in 1968.
When does the pain subside enough to allow for sexual intercourse after GCS? Do these guys care you are a trans. woman?
I has one who rejected me after knowing that I am a trans girl. But he was very polite. Most did not care but I do not tell everyone. Most were surprised but did not care.
I live in Berlin, Germany. You can google Kit Kat Club or Insomnia if you would like to get an impression where I often spent Friday night. It is great to have fun and build up experience because I feel very safe there. But on the downside there are a lot of other people looking at you. I can ignore that but I do not like it if others looking at me when I have sex.
I meet guys from the US, Italy, Sweden....there.
Hi OOAnne
I was recently in Berlin for a weekend (and was supposed to meet up with another TG Woman that weekend, but mysteriously she disappeared despite originally arranging to meet up. However I had a great weekend. I also went to Insomnia - The Club is described as:
Insomnia is a beautiful and elegant combination of lasciviousness, sophistication, and passion. It's the perfect haven for fetishists, fantasists, hedonists, and those who wish to celebrate sensuality in frivolous style.
This cathedral-like club is a special treat with its ornate gold and red furnishings and powerful splashes of colour, costume, and light. Dominique is the personality responsible for creating Insomnia; she's well-known on the erotic, fetish, and SM scene in Berlin, particularly for her fabulous parties at the KitKat Club.
For your pleasure, Insomnia is open Tuesday to Sunday with a whole range of special events, such as grand parties on Fridays, lots of techno trance on Saturdays, and swinging specials on Sundays.
I went there on a Saturday night and it was an amazing place, Boys with Girls, boys with boys, girls with girls and just about anything goes. I went dressed quite provocatively and ended up ... well that would be telling. Lets say I didn't get to my Hotel before Midday on Sunday! I loved the place. It was only a pity that other TG woman that had originally agreed to meet didn't come. I also visited the Serene Bar in Kreuzberg (quite close to Insomnia) The Serene Bar in Kreuzberg, near the old Tempelhof Airport, is a reliable weekend spot. Every Saturday sees a full house, a great atmosphere and lots of lesbians who enjoy dancing and talking. Fads are not the main focus here. Anything goes, but is more classic and stylish. On Sunday I went to CafeBar Marianne. Its One of the oldest lesbian bars in Berlin, small but relaxed – older couples, people drinking beer, fun nights.Mariannenstrasse 6, 10997 Berlin
The crowd is usually between 30 and 45 years old and loves dancing to well-known chart hits.
All in all a really nice weekend, but I missed meeting up with that other TG Woman who had communicated with me over many weeks prior to me arriving there, with not a single reply from 1 week prior to my arrival till today. Very odd!
JudithLynn
Quote from: FrancisAnn on July 04, 2015, 01:59:56 PM
I sure hope there are no detail signs after healing up. I'm hopeful for a normal life as a complete hetrosexual woman. I'm discussing surgery with a Dr. KeeLee MacPhee of Raleigh NC. She seems very experienced however not as well known as some of the other names.
Whaaaaaaa, there's a GRS surgeon in Raleigh, NC? That's where I live!
BRB, Googling........