I was browsing through YouTube and found this clip from a Stanford Biology class lecture regarding the brains of transgender individuals. Found it interesting. Although the lecture took place in 2010 and not necessarily news, I figured I'd share it anyways. He does get some of the lingo a little mixed up but it's very minimal and doesn't really affect main point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3C4ZJ7HyuE
So what do you think? I'm sure a lot of you have heard of studies such as this before but I thought I'd share it anyways for those of us who weren't aware of them. I hope this is helpful to someone, maybe you can show this video to people who are not supportive of your transition or for those who have questions about it. Feel free to discuss below :)
Thank you.
I have been thinking of this during the morning. I guess I am a short whatever in my brain. I know we are no longer are considered to have a mental "disorder" as of 2013. So I guess I am normal? So science is catching up with my condition. I am a female brained person. I know why we say our birthday is when we start HRT. The correct hormones are absolutely wonderful.
I'd heard of the brain study before (but not the extent to which the size of that part of the brain is a reliable predictor of male/female) but not the phantom penis.
Makes me feel better about my upcoming surgery.
Only thing I don't like was he kept mentioning "insisting they are female", which is the media narrative of transgender women. In fact I (and a number of other trans women I've communicated with) have never felt or insisted I'm female. I still don't "feel" female, though I've been living as a women happily for months.
The only reason I harp on this is that if I had had some notion earlier in my life of the different ways we experience transgender, I might have understood my condition sooner.
Good stuff, right here. I know of a few Doctors and Scientists who are working on the theory that being trans is actually a biological birth defect...that we are literally born with the wrong parts. There is even some interesting notions that it might be hereditary.
Would make a world of difference to some of us to be medically treated as any other birth defect correction, instead of the mess that we endure right now.
I heard about the first part, there was a study out over 10 years ago on that and apparently they did a duplicate of this to confirm it. Its fascinating. I never heard the second one though with the "phantom limb" thing. Thats new to me.
The upside of this is that with such evidence, we might actually get from treatment and surgery being paid on the grounds of an otherwise uncurable "sickness of the psyche" (which is what is the current status in some countries like Germany) to it being paid for being essentially a body birth defect - so we could go away from that stigma of being "mentally ill" and still get medical treatment by healthcare. Yay!
I was thinking more about the phantom limb thing. It may be due to the fact that the penile tissue is largely preserved during SRS, so I'm not sure it's as convincing as the other results.
Thanks for this, really very interesting
Quote from: Cynthia Michelle on September 28, 2013, 08:54:23 PM
Thank you.
I have been thinking of this during the morning. I guess I am a short whatever in my brain. I know we are no longer are considered to have a mental "disorder" as of 2013. So I guess I am normal? So science is catching up with my condition. I am a female brained person. I know why we say our birthday is when we start HRT. The correct hormones are absolutely wonderful.
Science is most definitely catching up! Very exciting! :)
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 29, 2013, 09:07:41 AM
I'd heard of the brain study before (but not the extent to which the size of that part of the brain is a reliable predictor of male/female) but not the phantom penis.
Makes me feel better about my upcoming surgery.
Only thing I don't like was he kept mentioning "insisting they are female", which is the media narrative of transgender women. In fact I (and a number of other trans women I've communicated with) have never felt or insisted I'm female. I still don't "feel" female, though I've been living as a women happily for months.
The only reason I harp on this is that if I had had some notion earlier in my life of the different ways we experience transgender, I might have understood my condition sooner.
Yeah I completely understand. It was clear that he wasn't completely familiar with the trans lingo and probably doesn't have a close trans friend, but it's good to see that someone can use science to disprove all the haters out there :)
Quote from: TaoRaven on September 29, 2013, 10:42:44 AM
Good stuff, right here. I know of a few Doctors and Scientists who are working on the theory that being trans is actually a biological birth defect...that we are literally born with the wrong parts. There is even some interesting notions that it might be hereditary.
Would make a world of difference to some of us to be medically treated as any other birth defect correction, instead of the mess that we endure right now.
That would definitely help lift a financial burden off many trans folk. If it could be classified as a birth defect then it is very possible that insurance would be willing to cover all treatment. That movement is already started though, I believe it is Kaiser Permanente in Colorado that now covers much of the expenses involved in transitioning. Good times ahead :D
Quote from: anjaq on September 29, 2013, 01:17:24 PM
I heard about the first part, there was a study out over 10 years ago on that and apparently they did a duplicate of this to confirm it. Its fascinating. I never heard the second one though with the "phantom limb" thing. Thats new to me.
The upside of this is that with such evidence, we might actually get from treatment and surgery being paid on the grounds of an otherwise uncurable "sickness of the psyche" (which is what is the current status in some countries like Germany) to it being paid for being essentially a body birth defect - so we could go away from that stigma of being "mentally ill" and still get medical treatment by healthcare. Yay!
I had never heard about the second part either. It's all very interesting the more and more science discovers about trans related issues. Definitely a push away from the "mentally ill" stigma that so many people insist we are.
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 29, 2013, 03:41:32 PM
I was thinking more about the phantom limb thing. It may be due to the fact that the penile tissue is largely preserved during SRS, so I'm not sure it's as convincing as the other results.
That is most definitely a possibility, I'm sure more research will be done in the future to find out. Time will tell :)
Quote from: Confused87 on September 29, 2013, 03:58:05 PM
Thanks for this, really very interesting
No problem, I'm glad it helped :)
Great video! Education IS power. Glad people like us are being studied seriously now and to some point vindicated for our feelings. Maybe health insurance will start helping us out some day. One can only hope.
Studies and information like this are always interesting... but the theories always break when you consider nonbinaries. Fortunately for science, they can afford to ignore us for a while. :P
The phantom limb thing is neat, though. I've always felt like I've had a phantom body more so than phantom genitals and secondary sex characteristics.
Since in most of these studies they look only at the binary people, they find binary results in a way, but even for that brain region he was talking about, there is a variability. IIRC it is 2.5 times larger in men (including FtMs) than in women (including MtFs). But some of the datapoints are in between, like at 2x the size. I can well imagine that if you look at enough bigendered people you certainly might find they are in the middle of that. But I guess they would have some trouble to get enough dead bigendered people onto their dissection tables... ;) - they are probably harder to find than any of the others mentioned.
Very good thanks for posting.. as for me.. I know for sure I would not have the phantom penis thing.. would feel more normal without it..
Quote from: anjaq on September 30, 2013, 11:04:54 AM
Since in most of these studies they look only at the binary people, they find binary results in a way, but even for that brain region he was talking about, there is a variability. IIRC it is 2.5 times larger in men (including FtMs) than in women (including MtFs). But some of the datapoints are in between, like at 2x the size. I can well imagine that if you look at enough bigendered people you certainly might find they are in the middle of that. But I guess they would have some trouble to get enough dead bigendered people onto their dissection tables... ;) - they are probably harder to find than any of the others mentioned.
There's a heck of a lot more to being nonbinary than just bigender or somewhere between M and F. ;)
I dunno. I think studies and information like this help a certain category of trans* person, and not others. It definitely doesn't help me-- in fact, I bristle when "born this way" information like this is put out as a blanket explanation for all transgender people. It has the unfortunate side-effect of discrediting those whose gender changes throughout their lives, those whose gender exists entirely outside of the M/F spectrum (like myself), those who don't relate to the "born in the wrong body" narrative, and so on. There's a special place in the heart of binary trans* people, I've found, for hating on folks who identify as "otherkin" (you know, the people who think they're things like dragons and wolves born in human bodies), and the rhetoric used to tear that community down sounds almost identical to the way that bigoted binary trans* people talk about nonbinaries. The similarity is that it's all too easy to write us off as inconsequential or delusional because we feel we are something that doesn't "exist" in the same way that "man" and "woman" does (ie biologically). It's sad and frustrating.
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 29, 2013, 09:07:41 AM
I'd heard of the brain study before (but not the extent to which the size of that part of the brain is a reliable predictor of male/female) but not the phantom penis.
Makes me feel better about my upcoming surgery.
Only thing I don't like was he kept mentioning "insisting they are female", which is the media narrative of transgender women. In fact I (and a number of other trans women I've communicated with) have never felt or insisted I'm female. I still don't "feel" female, though I've been living as a women happily for months.
The only reason I harp on this is that if I had had some notion earlier in my life of the different ways we experience transgender, I might have understood my condition sooner.
You have to consider, he was seemingly talking about transsexuals specifically, he was using the more social apt lingo to portray his point across.
What you are talking about seems to be some kind of alternative transgender thing. He was talking specifically about the "woman trapped in a man's body" people.
Quote from: Sierra Belle on September 30, 2013, 04:28:52 PM
What you are talking about seems to be some kind of alternative transgender thing. He was talking specifically about the "woman trapped in a man's body" people.
Are there really different types of transexuals (e.g. those who feel "trapped" and those who don't)?
Or are there just different ways of experiencing being transgender?
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 30, 2013, 08:27:21 PM
Are there really different types of transexuals (e.g. those who feel "trapped" and those who don't)?
Or are there just different ways of experiencing being transgender?
You asked 2 completely different questions as if they were completely relative.
Transsexuals are people who change genders, meaning anyone who completely and totally fills the role of the opposite gender(not meaning girly girls either, just becoming totally female in recognition).
Transgender refers to the entire spectrum, cross dressers, drag queens, any of the gender categories that do not completely swap genders (it does also include transsexuals), but instead play with the gender roles. There are transsexuals who do nothing but "cross dress" though, the distinction is all in how and who they want to be.
I think there is room for all that. Bigenders may end up in the middle there, for other transgenders that region may be male or female or in between but some other part of the brain may be different. Who knows. For some maybe there is even no brain difference at all and they are just doing it for the heck. Transgender is such an umbrella term. I guess this specific study was about those folks who have the really strong dysphoria and did or wanted to have SRS and all that. So for that type of gender issue, this may be an explanation. For the other stuff - no clue. It should not be a problem to allow that experssion in society as well though. So no "this one is more valid than an other so it is socially more acceptabe". That not good. Socially all of it should be acceptable. For TS with the "wrong body" thing it may still be good to have actually a physical reason, mostly because the changes they/we request are the most severe, not just socially but physically and it certainly cannot harm if that is seen as a biological condition that gets insurance coverage ;)
I never heard of people truely identifying as animals in the sense that transpeople do with gender. Like with dysphoria about not being that. But what do I know. I dont think I hate them, but I am admittedly careful there. Mostly because there are people jumping at the opportunity to use that to discredit transsexuality (as in http://www.transadvocate.com/the-rabid-transphobic-hate-mongering-of-the-anti-pornography-movement.htm about a page down where that woman goes on about comparing "women trapped in a mans body" to "rich people trapped in a poor persons body" and so on). I dont believe in the trans-as-a-choice thing at least not for people like me who had serious gender identity issues and serious body dysphoria which I dont think comes from choice. For some, gender expression may be a choice or a desire, for some it is not about the expression.
Quote from: anjaq on October 01, 2013, 03:28:01 AM
I never heard of people truely identifying as animals in the sense that transpeople do with gender. Like with dysphoria about not being that. But what do I know. I dont think I hate them, but I am admittedly careful there. Mostly because there are people jumping at the opportunity to use that to discredit transsexuality (as in http://www.transadvocate.com/the-rabid-transphobic-hate-mongering-of-the-anti-pornography-movement.htm about a page down where that woman goes on about comparing "women trapped in a mans body" to "rich people trapped in a poor persons body" and so on). I dont believe in the trans-as-a-choice thing at least not for people like me who had serious gender identity issues and serious body dysphoria which I dont think comes from choice. For some, gender expression may be a choice or a desire, for some it is not about the expression.
Personally, I don't see there being a way to have a biological predisposition to be a certain animal, but there could certainly be an overall body dysphoria that could gravitate toward a favorite animal. For the most part, though, I think these groups are reacting to their social differences in a moderately healthy way. In an open and accepting world we'd simply call that a hobby or interest.
Body dysphoria is not just a biological problem. I'm sure there are some transgender people who fall into this category, though I'd expect they're uncommon. Probably the most common body dysphoria comes from gaining or losing a lot of weight or muscle rapidly. Your mind pictures you one way, but you appear a different way. My brother (who's very into working out, weight lifting, etc) instantly knew what I was talking about when I discussed transgender body dysphoria. I don't think he had body dysphoria, but I think he's known a number of people who did.
In terms of transgender tendencies, I firmly believe in the biological aspect - little else would explain the young kids who express the opposite gender (though, from the comments on some of these articles... people can be pretty stupid about that - of course the parents wanted a little girl and just decided to rear the trans* girl that way). I don't believe in a strong genetic aspect, either... though it's impossible to say since most of the previous generation, and nearly all of the generation before it, were closeted all their lives. It also appears (at casual glance) to be fairly frequent, with a distribution similar to homosexuality... basically, it could happen to any child from any parents.
Genetic predisposition might make sense from a hormonal point of view... but I don't think that would be an accurate predictor (just one of those... "your chances of having a trans* boy are 25% higher, because you have high T" or something like that... though that's certainly an extreme oversimplification).
Quote from: anjaq on October 01, 2013, 03:28:01 AMFor TS with the "wrong body" thing it may still be good to have actually a physical reason, mostly because the changes they/we request are the most severe, not just socially but physically and it certainly cannot harm if that is seen as a biological condition that gets insurance coverage ;)
There are actually many nonbinary people that suffer from incredible dysphoria, and many who undergo surgery to alleviate it. Unfortunately, I've heard from a number of people that you have to pretend to be MtF or FtM in order for a chance at having the system support you, or pretend that you've been this way your whole life. That seems like a solution that only benefits a portion of the trans* community.
Quote from: anjaq on October 01, 2013, 03:28:01 AMI never heard of people truely identifying as animals in the sense that transpeople do with gender. Like with dysphoria about not being that. But what do I know. I dont think I hate them, but I am admittedly careful there. Mostly because there are people jumping at the opportunity to use that to discredit transsexuality (as in http://www.transadvocate.com/the-rabid-transphobic-hate-mongering-of-the-anti-pornography-movement.htm about a page down where that woman goes on about comparing "women trapped in a mans body" to "rich people trapped in a poor persons body" and so on). I dont believe in the trans-as-a-choice thing at least not for people like me who had serious gender identity issues and serious body dysphoria which I dont think comes from choice. For some, gender expression may be a choice or a desire, for some it is not about the expression.
I don't count myself as an otherkin, and I don't go into their communities at all, but my superficial understanding is that a lot of them suffer from body dysphoria and a number even claim to have phantom limb-like symptoms. If you talk to folks in the body modification community as well, you'll find a sizable population who also get mods to alleviate dysphoria. I personally experience only minimal physical dysphoria regarding my gender, and much more regarding how tall I am. I have a constant feeling of being slightly disoriented from having a body that's "too big". I'm clumsy from not quite knowing where all my limbs are (I know where I
think they are). I've done permanent damage to my body from trying to alleviate the discomfort of being the size that I am. I would get surgery to fix it if I could.
And even though I don't feel like I'm in the wrong "gendered" body, there are a lot of procedures I would chose to undergo if they existed, if I could afford them, and if they weren't too dangerous. The reason you don't get a lot of nonbinary people requesting such "severe" changes is because they don't help most of us. It's going from one crappy lie to another for many. So, you can't really claim that we don't want things of this sort, that we're different because of it, when it's just that we don't want what's being offered. Come up with a new invasive procedure, like a hip trimming, or some way to go from a flat chest to a B cup at will, and I'm sure lots of nonbinaries who could afford it would be lining up outside of the surgeon's office. Give us an option C before writing us off as not having as intense dysphoria just because A and B don't hold much appeal.
Quote from: kabit on October 01, 2013, 04:37:39 AMBody dysphoria is not just a biological problem. I'm sure there are some transgender people who fall into this category, though I'd expect they're uncommon. Probably the most common body dysphoria comes from gaining or losing a lot of weight or muscle rapidly. Your mind pictures you one way, but you appear a different way.
I would actually wager that the most common cause of body dysphoria is from depression.
For years I would come home from college for a visit and be told that I looked like a zombie; lo, I looked at myself in the mirror and didn't recognize what I saw. Frustration and self-loathing are pretty guaranteed side effects of depression, and how many people suffer from it?
Quote from: Lo on October 01, 2013, 09:59:44 AM
I would actually wager that the most common cause of body dysphoria is from depression.
For years I would come home from college for a visit and be told that I looked like a zombie; lo, I looked at myself in the mirror and didn't recognize what I saw. Frustration and self-loathing are pretty guaranteed side effects of depression, and how many people suffer from it?
I don't think I was depressed at 4 wanting to be a girl or wanting boobs to grow when other girls started changing... I believe dysphoria is what causes depression.. without dyshoria wha would we be depressed. I have dyshoria now and its causing depression even suicidal thoughts..
Also, they say anti depressants don't always help dyshoria.
Carrie
Quote from: carrie359 on October 01, 2013, 10:41:10 AM
I don't think I was depressed at 4 wanting to be a girl or wanting boobs to grow when other girls started changing... I believe dysphoria is what causes depression.. without dyshoria wha would we be depressed. I have dyshoria now and its causing depression even suicidal thoughts..
Also, they say anti depressants don't always help dyshoria.
Carrie
I believe they are talking about other ways it can occur, not that it's true for everyone. I think it would be more accurate to say people with dysphoria become depressed, or if they are like us have been depressed since puberty set in.
Quote from: Sierra Belle on October 01, 2013, 11:33:34 AM
I believe they are talking about other ways it can occur, not that it's true for everyone. I think it would be more accurate to say people with dysphoria become depressed, or if they are like us have been depressed since puberty set in.
No. We were talking about non-transgender body dysphoria. This type of dysphoria is very similar to what we experience, but the causes are completely different (more transient).
Quote from: kabit on October 01, 2013, 11:46:59 AM
No. We were talking about non-transgender body dysphoria. This type of dysphoria is very similar to what we experience, but the causes are completely different (more transient).
You mean like BDD?
Yeah, BDD is another one. Also, feelings of malaise are a common side effect of a lot of mood disorders.
I think definitely gender dysphoria causes depression. I believe depression always has a reason, I am not in favour of this idea that it is caused by some hickup in brain chemistry. But I can imagine something like abuse causing depression and that depression then leading to some form of dysphoria. I know it can happen that someone born male had an abusive childhood and learned by experience and by women telling him, that men are bad and violent. The trauma combined with that experience can then cause social dysphoria that may go into the TG spectrum.
Quote from: anjaq on October 02, 2013, 04:33:50 AM
I think definitely gender dysphoria causes depression. I believe depression always has a reason, I am not in favour of this idea that it is caused by some hickup in brain chemistry. But I can imagine something like abuse causing depression and that depression then leading to some form of dysphoria. I know it can happen that someone born male had an abusive childhood and learned by experience and by women telling him, that men are bad and violent. The trauma combined with that experience can then cause social dysphoria that may go into the TG spectrum.
I think it can certainly influence depression... but not [directly] cause it. I am not depressed and don't think I could ever have been called depressed (aside from minor things lasting no more than a few hours - and those were stress related) - even during puberty when the dysphoria was at its worst.
I'm not saying it's better to be depressed, but in some ways it makes being trans* difficult because I'm usually happy - (though I never visibly showed
that emotion, either). If people see you as happy, and always having been mostly happy, they have a tough time seeing you as transgender.
I like this a lot. I watched it a couple of days ago and some sort of cogs were whirring in my head for a while after. I guess now I feel more vindicated in being able to say I REALLY AM a woman. It's not just something psychological, but an actual physical reality in my brain. And I have a woman's brain, and always have, even if other parts of my body are at varying levels of femaleness at the moment.
One criticism of the video is that he perpetuates that myth where all trans people know since day 1. I didn't. But I know pretty damn sure now, and I'm certain that if they examined my brain they'd see a woman's brain.
Quote from: Sophia Gubb on October 02, 2013, 06:33:14 AM
One criticism of the video is that he perpetuates that myth where all trans people know since day 1. I didn't. But I know pretty damn sure now, and I'm certain that if they examined my brain they'd see a woman's brain.
Yeah... I hate that myth. I don't even like it when they say "most" do. Really? Most of the ones that are out by young teens, maybe... but even then you ignore the hormonal aspect during puberty. How many are
still out there hiding it? I came out at 35 because my parents didn't believe it could be real at ~15 (or so) and, with their subconscious help, I was convinced I could hide it for the rest of my life.
(It almost worked... but I decided to turn my health around instead of dying young)
Quote from: kabit on October 02, 2013, 06:07:37 AM
I think it can certainly influence depression... but not [directly] cause it. I am not depressed and don't think I could ever have been called depressed [...]I'm usually happy - (though I never visibly showed that emotion, either). If people see you as happy, and always having been mostly happy, they have a tough time seeing you as transgender.
You dont even have to seem happy, just content, meaning not showing you are doing really really bad
Dysphoria may or may not cause depression, its just on possibility (I think usually it does not work the other way round though - depression causing gender dysphoria). For me it was that. I did not even realize though that I was depressed. Only by looking at it later, I see that I was. At that time it just felt like I had not many empotions - I was not feeling incredibly sad usually, I was never feeling really happy either, it was just always the same and sort of stoic trodding along. When I came out even before HRT I discovered I had emotions and that this is the "normal" state of a human being. I had a depression some years post op and I realized that it was one then as I felt the same way as in my teens - emotionless and bland. I was then diagnosed with severe depression and treated. It over now for good I think :)
Quote from: Sophia Gubb on October 02, 2013, 06:33:14 AM
I like this a lot. I watched it a couple of days ago and some sort of cogs were whirring in my head for a while after. I guess now I feel more vindicated in being able to say I REALLY AM a woman. It's not just something psychological, but an actual physical reality in my brain
Yes to that. I always thought for such a long time that I am just making things up, that its just me having weird thoughts, maybe I am a pervert or have gone crazy or have had some trauma that caused me to be like that - which did not really help coming out. Knowing that there is a physical reason for it makes it easier for oneself and others to accept this particular strain of being gender variant (again, that does not IMO make other expressions less valid).
Quote
One criticism of the video is that he perpetuates that myth where all trans people know since day 1. I didn't. But I know pretty damn sure now, and I'm certain that if they examined my brain they'd see a woman's brain.
The way I see it, our brain and our soul knew from day 1, but our mind did not. First of all the mind did not even think about gender until some age, like 3 or so. Then the mind knew that there is a difference based on body and since we have a XY body, well the mind first has to assume that this is like that. And at that time depending on the social setting the games kids play are often not gendered and girls and boys play together, like playing house or building a zoo from wooden animals or playing hide and seek (Well, that was me at least, some decades ago ;) ). And then at the age where the differences start to be more and more striking, we start to get confused and then it starts to dawn on us, I think. At lest it dawns that somehting is not right here. So I think the cases where a 3 year old just openly speaks about being a girl are probably rare and rather depend on the circumstances than anyone being "more" TS than others (which is the impression I get from some people insisting on that plus the Benjamin scale and all that).
Quote from: kabit on October 02, 2013, 06:45:16 AM
I came out at 35 because my parents didn't believe it could be real at ~15 (or so) and, with their subconscious help, I was convinced I could hide it for the rest of my life.
(It almost worked... but I decided to turn my health around instead of dying young)
I hope you are not saying you would have died young because you were depressed after saying you are were not... ;)
Quote from: anjaq on October 02, 2013, 07:23:46 AM
You dont even have to seem happy, just content, meaning not showing you are doing really really bad
Dysphoria may or may not cause depression, its just on possibility (I think usually it does not work the other way round though - depression causing gender dysphoria). For me it was that. I did not even realize though that I was depressed. Only by looking at it later, I see that I was. At that time it just felt like I had not many empotions - I was not feeling incredibly sad usually, I was never feeling really happy either, it was just always the same and sort of stoic trodding along. When I came out even before HRT I discovered I had emotions and that this is the "normal" state of a human being. I had a depression some years post op and I realized that it was one then as I felt the same way as in my teens - emotionless and bland. I was then diagnosed with severe depression and treated. It over now for good I think :)
[...]
I hope you are not saying you would have died young because you were depressed after saying you are were not... ;)
Ah... that makes more sense. When I think of depression, I think of clinical depression that requires intervention. Yes. I had that other, lighter sort. The kind that sits on you, but that you can be happy through. I think a lot of us call it "muted emotions" but it's essentially the same thing.
I had a coping mechanism... Carbohydrates put you into a lightly sedated state. That let me deal with my issues... unfortunately (as with most coping mechanisms) it catches up to you. I was early-diabetic (not pre-diabetic... my A1C was 7.5... but very reversable) and have high BP. Coming out is the only thing that allowed me to lose significant weight and make a change in my life (I must have tried and failed 10 other times in the last 15 years or so).
Now I'm happy, dysphoric, and not depressed (or at least all of my depression comes from other sources). Doing something about the dysphoria fixes any depressive issues caused by it ~ at least for me.
But no... I'd never consider myself clinically depressed at any time in the past, except possibly once or twice from stress issues. A couple weeks after coming out to my wife I was pretty severely depressed for one evening. It's not possible to sleep 3 hours a night for 2 weeks... a good night's rest fixed it.
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 29, 2013, 03:41:32 PM
I was thinking more about the phantom limb thing. It may be due to the fact that the penile tissue is largely preserved during SRS, so I'm not sure it's as convincing as the other results.
I would venture the guess that this is true. Phantom limb syndrome normally implies that the brain looses the connections and then ends up with issues assembling a picture of the state of the body's sensors which sometimes results in phantom sensation. In the case of penile inversion, all of the same physical connections are still present, and the brain does have to go through a period of "remapping" sensation with location, but there is signaling. I would hope that the study mentioned covers that but he either neglected to mention it out of ignorance or merely wasn't prepared to delve that in depth into the subject.
Quote from: kabit on October 01, 2013, 04:37:39 AMIn terms of transgender tendencies, I firmly believe in the biological aspect - little else would explain the young kids who express the opposite gender...
I agree here. I was one of those, at about age 4 or 5, just about the age you start to understand about gender differences.
My dysphoria did cause constant anxiety, and clinical depression at certain times, including a breakdown. :(
Quote from: anjaq on October 02, 2013, 04:33:50 AM
I think definitely gender dysphoria causes depression. I believe depression always has a reason, I am not in favour of this idea that it is caused by some hickup in brain chemistry. But I can imagine something like abuse causing depression and that depression then leading to some form of dysphoria. I know it can happen that someone born male had an abusive childhood and learned by experience and by women telling him, that men are bad and violent. The trauma combined with that experience can then cause social dysphoria that may go into the TG spectrum.
There are many REAL things that can cause depression, including hiccups in the brain. Some families are naturally more prone to getting depressed, this isn't an idea. It's a FACT. Many other mental illnesses and impairments also cause depression, naturally, as it should. Depression is a symptom of something being off balance. It's a good indicator to people that something just simply isn't right. Happens in every living animal on the planet, I don't think there is one person who can honestly say going through this they didn't have the slightest bit of depression.
Quote from: kabit on October 02, 2013, 06:45:16 AMMost of the ones that are out by young teens, maybe... but even then you ignore the hormonal aspect during puberty. How many are still out there hiding it?
How many? Quite a lot I think. A friend told me that in an average size town you might have like 500 people who are trans, and many will never acknowledge it (she had exact numbers which escape me at the moment). Then she said to me "there were probably some you knew in high school" and, yep, there was. One of my friends, and years later I saw him, or now her, walking down the street. That was back in the late 70s.
I'll be 56 in November. I've been hiding all this time and I knew since I was 4. So how many more are there?
Lots. :)
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 03, 2013, 11:52:17 AM
How many? Quite a lot I think. A friend told me that in an average size town you might have like 500 people who are trans, and many will never acknowledge it (she had exact numbers which escape me at the moment). Then she said to me "there were probably some you knew in high school" and, yep, there was. One of my friends, and years later I saw him, or now her, walking down the street. That was back in the late 70s.
I'll be 56 in November. I've been hiding all this time and I knew since I was 4. So how many more are there?
Lots. :)
Most of the trans I've known have known since young, I was under the impression that everyone knew, it's just a matter of who showed it most potently, and when they came out completely. I started realizing mine around 6 or 7, I started doing things about it 7 months ago, just after I turned 19.
Quote from: anjaq on October 02, 2013, 04:33:50 AM
I think definitely gender dysphoria causes depression. I believe depression always has a reason, I am not in favour of this idea that it is caused by some hickup in brain chemistry. But I can imagine something like abuse causing depression and that depression then leading to some form of dysphoria. I know it can happen that someone born male had an abusive childhood and learned by experience and by women telling him, that men are bad and violent. The trauma combined with that experience can then cause social dysphoria that may go into the TG spectrum.
Please educate yourself before assuming mood disorders are caused by things like abuse. Decades of scientific inquiry disagree with your "idea", and even my personal history defies your explanation, I'm afraid. If brain anatomy and chemical imbalances can "cause" someone to be TG, then why is it such a stretch for it to "cause" someone to be depressed?
Quote from: kabit on October 02, 2013, 06:07:37 AM
I think it can certainly influence depression... but not [directly] cause it. I am not depressed and don't think I could ever have been called depressed (aside from minor things lasting no more than a few hours - and those were stress related) - even during puberty when the dysphoria was at its worst.
I'm not saying it's better to be depressed, but in some ways it makes being trans* difficult because I'm usually happy - (though I never visibly showed that emotion, either). If people see you as happy, and always having been mostly happy, they have a tough time seeing you as transgender.
No, it actually makes it a lot freakin' harder. You don't know if you're depressed because of dysphoria, or if you experience them at the same time but separately, and when you've come out and started transitioning you wonder why you still aren't happy and maybe you were never TG at all.
Quote from: Lo on October 03, 2013, 12:04:53 PM
Please educate yourself before assuming mood disorders are caused by things like abuse. Decades of scientific inquiry disagree with your "idea", and even my personal history defies your explanation, I'm afraid. If brain anatomy and chemical imbalances can "cause" someone to be TG, then why is it such a stretch for it to "cause" someone to be depressed?
No, it actually makes it a lot freakin' harder. You don't know if you're depressed because of dysphoria, or if you experience them at the same time but separately, and when you've come out and started transitioning you wonder why you still aren't happy and maybe you were never TG at all.
Exactly, my own sister was the most depressed person I think I've ever met so far, and she literally had 0 abuse, 0 visible reason to have such a potent reason for depression, today she can't even explain exactly why she was depressed but she grew out of it. Me and her were only months apart, so I'm sure it wasn't much to do with school either.
Quote from: Sierra Belle on October 03, 2013, 12:04:33 PMI started realizing mine around 6 or 7, I started doing things about it 7 months ago, just after I turned 19.
Oh gosh I wish I was 19 again! I'm so happy for everyone younger who is starting this journey. ;D
It would make this whole thing a lot easier if I started back then... and cheaper. While my face/body hasn't changed too much since I was that age, as compared to some cis males (I'm still small in stature and don't have too much testosterone damage), I'll need some FFS to be passible, at least in my opinion (I care more about how I feel than how others see me).
Me at 19:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.raven-nevermore.com%2Fimages%2FD_Dreamer.jpg&hash=7e6906ce865bc206c9a2455be304d8be505aa263) (even here I don't look too happy...)
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 03, 2013, 12:23:40 PM
Oh gosh I wish I was 19 again! I'm so happy for everyone younger who is starting this journey. ;D
It would make this whole thing a lot easier if I started back then... and cheaper. While my face/body hasn't changed too much since I was that age, as compared to some cis males (I'm still small in stature and don't have too much testosterone damage), I'll need some FFS to be passible, at least in my opinion (I care more about how I feel than how others see me).
Me at 19:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.raven-nevermore.com%2Fimages%2FD_Dreamer.jpg&hash=7e6906ce865bc206c9a2455be304d8be505aa263) (even here I don't look too happy...)
Yeah, I didn't get as much of the bony facial features, but neither did my father until his 20's from the pictures I saw. Anyway, I think most of the difficulty for later transitions is how they age, men and women tend to age differently, at least mid life. Then late life everyone pretty much looks the same aside from the obvious organs, IMO. :P
Btw, you have a cute nose.
Quote from: Sierra Belle on October 03, 2013, 12:40:59 PM
Btw, you have a cute nose.
Thanks, it was but it's gotten bigger lol But I still pretty much look the same. People think I'm in my late 40s, and that makes me happy.
What the heck, this is me currently. :)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.raven-nevermore.com%2Fimages%2F2013-09-13%252021.03.27-2.jpg&hash=cad32d7d558a2bed5a65b5b53cda6a2fdec4ad56)
I'm thankful I have 99% of my hair, but I wish I didn't have chicken lips. lol
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 03, 2013, 12:51:38 PM
Thanks, it was but it's gotten bigger lol But I still pretty much look the same. People think I'm in my late 40s, and that makes me happy.
What the heck, this is me currently. :)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.raven-nevermore.com%2Fimages%2F2013-09-13%252021.03.27-2.jpg&hash=cad32d7d558a2bed5a65b5b53cda6a2fdec4ad56)
I'm thankful I have 99% of my hair, but I wish I didn't have chicken lips. lol
Honestly, those can look cute on a girl. It's deemed a "masculine" feature but I've seen a few girls with super thin lips who looked to die for.
Btw, how far are you on HRT? I hear HRT can really change how your nose looks with all the soft tissue changes.
I personally hate my nose so much, I've broken it 5 times! :D
Quote from: Sierra Belle on October 03, 2013, 12:58:20 PM
Honestly, those can look cute on a girl. It's deemed a "masculine" feature but I've seen a few girls with super thin lips who looked to die for.
Btw, how far are you on HRT? I hear HRT can really change how your nose looks with all the soft tissue changes.
I personally hate my nose so much, I've broken it 5 times! :D
Oh you are making me feel great today! Thank you! :laugh:
My nose was broken twice. You can see it was wider when I was younger. It's also slightly crooked, but the last time straightened it out a bit. :-\ (blame PMS for both times)
I'm not on HRT yet. I'm hoping to start it soon. I'm at the "I just made the decision to transition phase". I got divorced last year, and since then have been on the fence about it, but I'm 200% sure now. :) I've picked out a gender therapist I will be seeing shortly. She even has two adult trans children.
I'm real curious what HRT is going to do at my age. I sure hope it does make some facial changes. I am going to start saving up for some FFS, but the less I have to do the better ($$$ I don't have). In the mean time I'm getting myself fit (have some extra pounds to get rid of) and I'm exploring either laser or electrolysis for my facial hair (I have a fairly heavy beard).
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 03, 2013, 01:13:48 PM
Oh you are making me feel great today! Thank you! :laugh:
My nose was broken twice. You can see it was wider when I was younger. It's also slightly crooked, but the last time straightened it out a bit. :-\ (blame PMS for both times)
I'm not on HRT yet. I'm hoping to start it soon. I'm at the "I just made the decision to transition phase". I got divorced last year, and since then have been on the fence about it, but I'm 200% sure now. :) I've picked out a gender therapist I will be seeing shortly. She even has two adult trans children.
I'm real curious what HRT is going to do at my age. I sure hope it does make some facial changes. I am going to start saving up for some FFS, but the less I have to do the better ($$$ I don't have). In the mean time I'm getting myself fit (have some extra pounds to get rid of) and I'm exploring either laser or electrolysis for my facial hair (I have a fairly heavy beard).
I mean, you haven't aged that badly at all. I'm sure you'll come out perfectly fine, just get your brows tweezed, grow out your hair and you can rock it fine. HRT will just make it better! You should do some research though, I spend a couple years off and on researching these things like what the certain meds do, how to diet properly before and during it. There's a lot to consider that can potentially enhance how HRT will treat you. For instance what you do, losing weight now then gaining it during HRT will work amazingly well for you.
Quote from: Lo on October 03, 2013, 12:04:53 PM
No, it actually makes it a lot freakin' harder. You don't know if you're depressed because of dysphoria, or if you experience them at the same time but separately, and when you've come out and started transitioning you wonder why you still aren't happy and maybe you were never TG at all.
Yes, I don't mean to sound insensitive about depression issues. Sorry!! ♥
Quote from: Sierra Belle on October 03, 2013, 01:24:32 PM
I mean, you haven't aged that badly at all. I'm sure you'll come out perfectly fine, just get your brows tweezed, grow out your hair and you can rock it fine. HRT will just make it better! You should do some research though, I spend a couple years off and on researching these things like what the certain meds do, how to diet properly before and during it. There's a lot to consider that can potentially enhance how HRT will treat you. For instance what you do, losing weight now then gaining it during HRT will work amazingly well for you.
Thanks again. I have aged well... that's partly genetics, plus I stay out of the sun and I don't smoke. :) I have good days and bad days. I have a little droop in my face which I'd like to take care of.
I just cut my hair... it grows like a weed. It also gets very bushy. I was pretty long before I cut it. Took me about a year to grow out. It was a bit past my shoulders. I'll start growing it again when I start HRT.
Yeah so right now I'm losing weight, I walk over a mile a day, and might start running. I'm a pescatarian vegetarian. I stopped snacking and eating sweets (I used to love ice cream!).
One of my past objections to making the transition was I wasn't crazy about getting older (yes I'm vain), and between being out of work and getting divorced (lots of stress) I wasn't taking care of myself. So I figured if I hated being a middle aged guy, why would I want to be a middle aged woman? I'd be even more miserable! But I'm past that now and I feel and look a lot better than I did this time last year. Plus everyone tells me how E makes you look younger... so Yay!
:)
Thanks again for the kind words of encouragement. This halloween I'm dressing in a Japanese school girl sailor uniform. ;) I haven't done that in public in about 28 years. One of the bands I'm in (a classic rock cover band) always plays at a certain club where they have a costume party. No one in the band knows what I'm wearing, so it should be a hoot! I'm looking forward to the looks on their faces. My son said I look like a librarian with the long black wig on and my glasses. lol I'm getting by brows threaded next week. I have enough to work with where they should be able to get a nice high arch.
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 03, 2013, 04:38:18 PM
Thanks again. I have aged well... that's partly genetics, plus I stay out of the sun and I don't smoke. :) I have good days and bad days. I have a little droop in my face which I'd like to take care of.
I just cut my hair... it grows like a weed. It also gets very bushy. I was pretty long before I cut it. Took me about a year to grow out. It was a bit past my shoulders. I'll start growing it again when I start HRT.
Yeah so right now I'm losing weight, I walk over a mile a day, and might start running. I'm a pescatarian vegetarian. I stopped snacking and eating sweets (I used to love ice cream!).
One of my past objections to making the transition was I wasn't crazy about getting older (yes I'm vain), and between being out of work and getting divorced (lots of stress) I wasn't taking care of myself. So I figured if I hated being a middle aged guy, why would I want to be a middle aged woman? I'd be even more miserable! But I'm past that now and I feel and look a lot better than I did this time last year. Plus everyone tells me how E makes you look younger... so Yay!
:)
Thanks again for the kind words of encouragement. This halloween I'm dressing in a Japanese school girl sailor uniform. ;) I haven't done that in public in about 28 years. One of the bands I'm in (a classic rock cover band) always plays at a certain club where they have a costume party. No one in the band knows what I'm wearing, so it should be a hoot! I'm looking forward to the looks on their faces. My son said I look like a librarian with the long black wig on and my glasses. lol
LOL, Japanese school girl. I like. And yeah, I've only actually been on e for maybe 3 or 4 months, I think around 4. I'm terrible with memory-
I've noticed that my skin has gotten ever so slightly smoother, I definitely do look a lot younger, even though I'm only 19-weird.
I've also noticed that my eyes look more feminine, I don't really know how, their shape is exactly the same they just seem to be more feminine. It's weird. xD
And I'm not trying to encourage I'm just telling you what I see! :P
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 03, 2013, 04:42:31 PM
LOL, Japanese school girl. I like.
Yeah, I'm a geek. lol I would have so been into cosplay had it been around when I was younger!
QuoteAnd I'm not trying to encourage I'm just telling you what I see! :P
I read members' experiences here, and they are mostly positive, and that's encouraging. Having not been in the loop, and being a tad naive, I have to say that coming to a wonderful forum like this is an eye opening experience. I went from feeling totally isolated to being a lot like a lot of other people. I also have made friends with a wonderful trans woman from Canada (who has a web site up of her transition), and she's been very supportive. She puts up with my zillion and one questions,and we even Skype each other occasionally. She said I should seek out some support groups in my area, and while looking for those I found this place. So the trans community is really such a great supportive family to have. I'm so pleasantly surprised by it all. :) I went from feelings of despair to knowing I can do this, because I have so many real life examples to look up to.
Yeah, I'm a sappy corn ball. lol
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 03, 2013, 06:19:08 PM
Yeah, I'm a geek. lol I would have so been into cosplay had it been around when I was younger!
I read members' experiences here, and they are mostly positive, and that's encouraging. Having not been in the loop, and being a tad naive, I have to say that coming to a wonderful forum like this is an eye opening experience. I went from feeling totally isolated to being a lot like a lot of other people. I also have made friends with a wonderful trans woman from Canada (who has a web site up of her transition), and she's been very supportive. She puts up with my zillion and one questions,and we even Skype each other occasionally. She said I should seek out some support groups in my area, and while looking for those I found this place. So the trans community is really such a great supportive family to have. I'm so pleasantly surprised by it all. :) I went from feelings of despair to knowing I can do this, because I have so many real life examples to look up to.
Yeah, I'm a sappy corn ball. lol
Nothin wrong with that, I always prefer talking to people. I also have a skype if you wanna add me It should be right below my posts. xD
i used to be pretty disgruntled about this whole idea too, but I've since unlocked myself from my brain and just learned to let go and try to see myself from a new pair of eyes.
I wrote a little article in response to this, I hope it's okay with the mods if I post?
This Wikipedia article has some of this brain related info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism
One thing I wasn't familiar with is "digit ratio" as a secondary gender marker. Interestingly my index and ring fingers are about the same length, with the index being slightly longer. Males have shorter index fingers than females. Females also have longer arms. These characteristics are from prenatal androgen exposure, or insensitivity to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio
The interesting things about these studies is it validates us as far as this not being all in our head. There are measurable physical differences in us that more closely match natal females.
Let me add another one to this :). About longer arms... I learned recently the rationale behind that - with longer arms it is easier to cross them so that both palms go under the ribcage. Guys tend to cross arms right in front of their chest, whereas girls - those being on the HRT are very well aware of the reason why - cross them lower. I can do it both ways and I always had long arms - but my fingers are about the same lenght, with index being a tiny bit shorter :P.
And referring back to Your previous discussions... You can count on getting ~ 5 years of Your age back because of the effects of the HRT on Your face and skin.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 12, 2013, 11:59:34 AM
Let me add another one to this :). About longer arms... I learned recently the rationale behind that - with longer arms it is easier to cross them so that both palms go under the ribcage. Guys tend to cross arms right in front of their chest, whereas girls - those being on the HRT are very well aware of the reason why - cross them lower. I can do it both ways and I always had long arms - but my fingers are about the same lenght, with index being a tiny bit shorter :P.
And referring back to Your previous discussions... You can count on getting ~ 5 years of Your age back because of the effects of the HRT on Your face and skin.
I don't think I've ever crossed my arms that high! Over the nipples (or almost)?
I'd heard about the digits thing... my index is slightly smaller, but only by a couple millimeters. My ratio was around .97-.98 I think.
The problem with these measurements is that the bell curves overlap so much that unless it's entirely obvious (like a >>1.00 ratio in MTF) the numbers aren't that useful.
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 12, 2013, 11:46:46 AM
This Wikipedia article has some of this brain related info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism
One thing I wasn't familiar with is "digit ratio" as a secondary gender marker. Interestingly my index and ring fingers are about the same length, with the index being slightly longer. Males have shorter index fingers than females. Females also have longer arms. These characteristics are from prenatal androgen exposure, or insensitivity to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio
The interesting things about these studies is it validates us as far as this not being all in our head. There are measurable physical differences in us that more closely match natal females.
I actually think it's an oversight. My index finger is a good bit smaller, about quarter of an inch, I never felt male. Ever. They don't indicate anything other than you happened to get female proportioned hands.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 12, 2013, 11:59:34 AM
And referring back to Your previous discussions... You can count on getting ~ 5 years of Your age back because of the effects of the HRT on Your face and skin.
Yay! :) Because I'm not getting any younger. Lol
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 12, 2013, 12:31:45 PM
I actually think it's an oversight. My index finger is a good bit smaller, about quarter of an inch, I never felt male. Ever. They don't indicate anything other than you happened to get female proportioned hands.
I think the changes in the brain have a greater effect on gender identity, but it is interesting about the digit ratio. Clearly some people have very male bodies while others don't. That doesn't seem to matter.
I'd be interested to hear if there's a correlation between digit ratio and gender differences in the brain in trans* individuals. My guess is no or not much of one - there are so many other factors. Genetics could certainly partially determine digit sizes. Brain gender and digit size formation may occur at different times prenatally.
I'm also curious about the sliding scale of gender versus brain gender vice social influences. I lived for 20 years as male, when I could have chosen to aim for female at age 15 (by telling my parents more than I did). I was a scared kid with major problems coping back then, instead of a scared adult with a coping mechanism from ages 18-35. I still feel that, especially for those pubescent years, that I'm clearly strongly transgender. I just found a different outlet that worked for many years.
Quote from: kabit on October 12, 2013, 12:53:56 PM
I'd be interested to hear if there's a correlation between digit ratio and gender differences in the brain in trans* individuals. My guess is no or not much of one - there are so many other factors.
There might be, because it shows that when you were exposed to androgen prenataly, it either had an effect that you would expect (shorter index finger) or it didn't. This is also assumed to affect the brain. Some of it is genetics of both you and your mother.
Some things that affect the mother will change aspects in the baby. For instance, there has been shown to be a correlation to the pregnant mother being in stressful situations and the male children they are carrying to grow up gay. This was shown statistically during WWII in Germany. But I don't thing any causality was looked for or found.
Quote from: Lo on October 03, 2013, 12:04:53 PM
Please educate yourself before assuming mood disorders are caused by things like abuse. Decades of scientific inquiry disagree with your "idea", and even my personal history defies your explanation, I'm afraid. If brain anatomy and chemical imbalances can "cause" someone to be TG, then why is it such a stretch for it to "cause" someone to be depressed?
Ok, let me revise that - It CAN happen but I think most depression has other causes. Not solely abuse but also I believe living circumstances and other events. Even what we consider "good circumstances" can cause depression because something else is lacking. I read a study once that linked living in a city to increased rates of depression, which actually could be lowered if people did have good access to nautre walks and such. Depression is a classical multifactorial issue, I would say and genetics or brain issues certainly play a role but to put it all back on that and try to cure every depression by shifting chemical balance in the brain - that cannot work. I had SSRIs for a year - all it had done to me was gain weight a lot and I was still severly depressed. And that was some years post-op, so it was not really a GID issue. I think it was mostly insecurity about the future, jobs, relationships and such, certainly post-op anxiety about passing and being exposed as trans, definitely me living in the city without good ways to calm down in a nature setting which I personally definitely need and lack of good social network. I certainly have a predisposition to depression as I get it on and off since I was little, but I still think that in each case it occurs, there are tangible reasons that foster it, it does not just come without any reason solely because of brain imbalance. Though i am sure for some it may be that , I am just ryting to give my experiences here. I am sorry if I came off as being dismissive of people having depression issues - I know how ->-bleeped-<-ty it is to have those...
Ha - for what its worth, my two fingeres there are the same as well, but I think the statistics are really not great and its easy to misread it by a mm or two and then its already a lot of difference.
I never heard of any arm- or leg length issues though. I heard something about having very little body hair being something about a slight androgen insensitivity - but that was not linked to being TG yet.