My dear friends, most who I will never know. I write this in total honesty and knowing that some of you and I are kindred. We are different but the same. Here goes...
My best friend and I travelled to Seoul in October. I am now 2 weeks having had the surgery, and back home in my country of residence.
We entered the glass doors to Yeson and no one said a word to us, just beckoned us to the seating area. We sat quietly in front of a flat TV screen playing Korean Soaps. How did they know who we were? We looked around and there were no other obvious kindreds. Whatever the other's were here for it was obvious it wasn't for voice feminization surgery...
Beautiful aspect. Clean, fresh, and seemingly very professional. Women walking past us in white coats. Yes, very professional. Then a small, very young woman approaches us (my friend and I) and says hello. It is Jessie, the english co ordinator. She is very pleasant. Small talk. A little strange, but then we're supposed to be aren't we? Isn't the idea that we will leave this place a little "less strange" God, I hope so...!
In to meet Dr Kim. Everyone is Mr Kim, or Dr Kim. He is lovely. Very pleasant, direct and nice english. Two other women are in the room with white coats, watching. I have no idea what is about to happen, or what it means. It means something, all of it...as I will soon find out. A battery of tests on my voice and several large screened computers on a desk with all sorts of diagrams I have no idea what it all means...
These are the results of my comprehensive voice examination: He tells me I have a voice pitch of 146.40 in my "high range" and 141.86 in the low range. It doesn't mean much to me, actually nothing. I just know how I sound...He does tell me that usually his patients have a deeper range than I have. Doesn't matter. Don't even know if it's true...
The following day is my surgery.
I wake up. Lisa is there...I'm still groggy and the room is very hot. A machine is pumping out mist toward my head.
Lunchtime. Don't feel like any "lunch" But I am brought a huge bowl of something I chose earlier from the menu. I'm not hungry. One spoonful of a bland porridge-like substance has to go back on the spoon, there is no way I can swallow.
It is then I realize some of my teeth are missing. I must have woken up my tongue which is itself injured. It feels like 3 teeth, but it doesn't matter, they are gone. Lisa is panicking now too. All I can do is write, scribble on a pad. I can't talk...
Now I have to cut the story short. Basically, Yeson deny I had the teeth, then say they were there when the surgery was completed, and then I must have lost them when I was violent in recovery. Really? I didn't think I was violent...It seems hours pass and then I decide to call my Embassy. They separate Lisa and I. Is this the Korean way? Separating us. They have no right to separate us, or my teeth from my mouth or my dignity from me. But it has only just started...Lisa takes photographs. Then she notices I have a huge orange-sized bruise on my left shoulder. No other injuries, just this one purple bruise. When we challenge them on how this happened we just get blank excuses.
They have looked for my teeth (in the operating room) and can't find them. It's a bridge...Someone decides that I will need to have an X-Ray. Jessie, Lisa nad I have to go downstairs and across a huge busy intersection with me holding my drip-trolley, wearing blue pajamas. Everyone is looking. But this is Korea, and does anyone care?
Yes, the teeth (my bridge) is in my stomach.
Back to Yeson.
An argument ensues about who is responsible now. I'm adamant it is Yeson because they caused it. Equally, they argue they aren't because I didn't tell them. I did, and Lisa was there when we discussed my dental work and all my crowns. The communication somehow broke down. The bruise remains a mystery...
Yeson agree to take responsibility and I am walked down to A+ dental. Jessie is with us wherever we go...
I'm told there are 2 types of crown and I will be given the gold one not the metal version with porcelain mix. In the meantime I am fitted with a plastic replacement.
The following week I have my follow up with Dr Kim. The question about the Botox injection will be a difficult one. We don't want to pay the $400 (oh we have it) because we feel I haven't been well looked after and I shouldn't have to pay another cent. Eventually it is agreed that I can pay half. But only on the proviso that I agree to submit a voice video down the track. They tell me that I have now cost them money...We pay the $200 in cash.
Dr Kim puts something around my throat it feels like something soft and I can hear my heart beating. I can hear it! The needle is put right into my throat and the Botox is injected. It hurts to the point I think I might faint, but not enough to scream. How would I scream?
Jessie tells Lisa that they can remove her Adam's Apple for $2,500 U.S. She isn't interested. It's a badge, isn't it?
Oh wow. I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I'm going to be there in a few weeks and I hope my experience goes better. I don't have any dental work that could put me in a similar situation, but having them argue about where the fault lies makes me wonder about their ethics. Thanks for telling us your story and I hope things work out for you in the end.
Besides the problems you had with the clinic and dental stuff, what about the surgery itself? Were there any complications with that? I know you probably can't talk much yet but how do you feel about the recovery and potential results?
It's just too early. I can whisper. My friend had me laughing and it was in my throat laughter and even I could tell it was pretty high (like nothing I have done before) My throat feels sore...like I have been smoking, a raspy throat.
Having had FFS in Thailand (Chonburi) and now this in Seoul. I REALLY do think the Asians just have a different culture and life is pretty cheap. I was called he at Yeson. And that is just not on. I was called he in Chonburi - even though my passport is female and I don't look male. Even the certificate from Yeson calls me a he and then a she. Do you think I want this ->-bleeped-<-ing "certificate". I just wanted to quietly have my voice done and move on with my life... :)
Oh, and I didn't get the good bridge replacement in the end, they gave me an adequate, but cheap version.
I'm so sorry that you had a bad experience there. That's a pretty serious thing for them to deny, and I'm sure if they were completely honest with you from the get go you would be a lot more okay with it (not that you shouldn't be mad that it happened in the first place, but nobody is infallible and accidents do happen). I don't understand how that's something they could miss happening either, assuming it did occur during the procedure.
I remember being specifically asked if I had any weak teeth since the instrument they use to keep your mouth open during surgery can put a lot of stress on them. So it's definitely a possible complication they are aware about.
Edit: Sorry to hear about the misgendering as well. That's odd because I was never misgendered (on one occasion I think Dr. Kim called a previous patient "he" but quickly corrected himself) and even though my passport said Male and still had my male name at the time, all of my documents they gave me said she.
My birth certificate was changed many many years ago and it was done by my Government. I guess my point is, that the only reason male or he is being used is because of what's being done. At the age of 55, it's important (to me) just as much as it would be for anyone to be called the opposite sex. I have the documents in a folder they gave me which refer to me as a he and then a she in the same sentence! Normally my reaction would be to protest and have it changed, but why should I? I don't care terribly much about their certificates anyway. These people had my passport too. (They always want your passport) and it is quite clear what sex I am.
Now with so much law-change and Human Rights throughout the world I am angry, and I don't want any of my kindred spirits to go through this...
I have watched so much discrimination in my life-time directed at "us" and it was always at our expense.
We are entitled to respect. To be loved and treated with compassion.
Asia seems to be all about the money, and it seems we have to pay a price for that. You all have the right to know how you might be treated. It isn't right. It's quite cruel to call a female a male. Perhaps this is what they really think of "us". As I have NEVER lived as a man, it hurts. I don't go to their country to insult them, so why would they insult me?
I faintly remember them using incorrect pronouns right when I got there and they saw my passport was male so I went into their system as male and it says the same on my little certificate... but it just seemed to me like trans women hadn't been their #1 client and the language barrier made it hard to discuss those kinds of things easily. Maybe it's worth explaining to them.
So sorry to hear about your teeth!!! :( yeah I remember Dr Kim asking me about my dental history and warning me that there is a risk of damage there. The instrument that makes an endoscopic surgery possible is made out of stainless steel and is very strong. I was concerned about it and he said as long as I didn't have any weak teeth I would be totally fine. My tongue was close to what I would call "very" sore for many days though, which he also warned me about and it did indeed happen. It took a few weeks to get sensation back to my taste buds around the bruise.
I really hope it is worth it to you in the long run. I can't imagine losing teeth for a procedure... I would be mega bummed.. It definitely concerned me when he mentioned it.
Oh and your description of the center and the greeting experience is spot on. That was a really great writeup and I felt like I was reliving it all again :)
Sending good thoughts your way for a great recovery! And definitely I would not whisper at all- it actually delays healing. I didn't have any power in my voice until about 2.5 months post op... Kind of frustrating but worth the wait! When you can talk make sure not to try to forcibly push it louder until you are 2 months. Welcome back!
:) What a sweet-heart you are...Jenny! Well I don't know about all the other procedures they do there, but sure they do them...I heard the most amazing opera singer while I was there. Bet they didn't get her sex wrong!
There just wasn't and isn't any excuse for what happened...there, or with any other professional service provider anywhere else in the world. If you pay for a service you have a right to expect to be treated appropriately, otherwise why do they have 1st Class on airplanes? Just an example. Am I so pathetic, so desperate that the way I was treated is somehow OK? Of course not!
They seemed more focussed on getting paid (I had already paid - but they didn't realize it) and then denying liability, followed by insisting they would give me something only if I agreed to do a video of afterwards - the concession being they would mozaic me out)
So what would they call me? On the video? A MTF 55 year old (from my country) deleted Off! So some perverted prick can listen to how I sound and sounded. No, I don't think so...It's not going to happen. I deserve to get what I paid for, and if I end up with that then that will be what I went for.
Dr Kim was very polite, very nice to me. What he said to anyone else in Korean is something I can't know. But I do know if I hadn't taken my friend I would have been well, ->-bleeped-<-ed. I would have had no one to take the photographs, no one to support me, or to stand up to them.
Thank you so much for your kind thoughts...
H
You're so welcome. I totally agree about the gendering thing. Maybe I will send Jessie an email, she has always been so incredibly receptive and responsive.
For me I was expecting a little bit of the "feeling of money" being involved, because Gangnam is kind of like the Beverly Hills of Seoul- it's one of the most happening places on the planet right now and prices for everything there are high. But maybe it also came through when I was there that money was not an issue; the best possible result was all that mattered. Maybe I am used to it from living 20mins away from Beverly Hills where prices can be outrageous ;) Either way, my results are in a way priceless to me.
Speaking of Beverly Hills, I did have a really gnarly misgendering experience with a plastic surgeon's office some months ago for a consultation. It turned me off so badly that I sent them a very disgruntled email. I think there are still just a lot of places that are not up to speed with how to be polite with transgender people i.e. what to say and what NOT to say EVER. At the very least, we could try to help them understand as much as possible... either by confronting it in the moment or clarifying afterwards in a calm but serious manner. Not everyone may share the same verbal triggers, but it is polite to treat every patient in the best possible and respectable way regardless if they are trans.
And I mean it's like... They deserve to know. I can almost guarantee that they were not trying to offend you. I'm sure it was an accident as it was with my experience in Beverly Hills.
Well it probably didn't help that I got angry with them...but should I be making excuses? I don't know why, but I am thinking too of all those who have gone before us (literally) because they didn't have the money to do these things. I know my operation was hideous (40+ years ago) but as Dr Suporn said, it's reflective of what they did (to us back then) and let's not forget those who were butchered and later took their lives because the pain got too great.
Do you know, in some cultures, thousands of years ago we were revered and very special. Treated so differently to how we are now.
Oh to be reborn! Today, with all the technology and skills available. :)
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 21, 2013, 02:19:25 AM
Oh to be reborn! Today, with all the technology and skills available. :)
I think about that A LOT. How lucky we are to live in this time!
And it's only going to get better :D
How excited are you to hear your voice? I was so eager I could hardly see straight.
All I have heard is a high pitched laugh from within my throat.
It's pretty sore and I am doing just as you said. Giving it a rest. If I whisper I sound the same to me...so better not ;D
The teeth thing scares me now. How do I know if I have strong teeth?! I can rip meat and accidentally some grains of sand that fail to get washed out of some shellfish, but that's as much as I know.
It isn't my intention to scare you or anyone. Just inform you what happened, what my experience was. Unfortunately it wasn't very nice that it happened, and then all the denials...We shouldn't forget either that I returned from voice surgery with a massive orange sized bruise on my shoulder - nothing to do with my teeth or my throat region. What happened? I got no satisfactory answer but some nonsense about me being violent - thrashing about. So where are all the other bruises (from doing this) I kept saying to them that this isn't going to be good publicity for them (during the denial - my fault phase)
I think I would have had second thoughts if I had known what was going to happen, and especially how I was treated.
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 22, 2013, 06:02:19 AM
It isn't my intention to scare you or anyone. Just inform you what happened, what my experience was. Unfortunately it wasn't very nice that it happened, and then all the denials...We shouldn't forget either that I returned from voice surgery with a massive orange sized bruise on my shoulder - nothing to do with my teeth or my throat region. What happened? I got no satisfactory answer but some nonsense about me being violent - thrashing about. So where are all the other bruises (from doing this) I kept saying to them that this isn't going to be good publicity for them (during the denial - my fault phase)
I think I would have had second thoughts if I had known what was going to happen, and especially how I was treated.
Did they give any indication as to why you could of been thrashing about? Do you have any idea what may of set it off? Was it a reaction to some medication? It is very disconcerting that they simply shrug this off. I mean heck who's to say your teeth weren't dislodged from the incident?
Thank you for sharing Kiwi
I wasn't "thrashing about" I was unconscious from the anesthetic! It was just an excuse and a very poor one. My teeth "were" dislodged during the operation, found in my stomach after an X-Ray...but after they went looking for the teeth in the operating room as well. For goodness sake!
This sounds very odd indeed. I had the feeling that doing any surgeries in Asia can be different from here. In my home country they would never tell you to go to a hotel after having had anaesthesia. But the reaction to the complications was not really good at all - denial and then not dealing with it properly. The misgendering is also really bad - A surgeon and team that did this procedure how many times (Jenny?) should know better. What are they thinking? I think if going to Asia one has more or less be focused on results and money - going there and get the thing done, pay for it and get a good result and everything else probably is not up to par with the standards we think we have in our countries. Though I must say when I had SRS 13 years ago What I read here totally reminds me of it. I had severe complications and basically had to tell it to them and convince them of it so they finally called in the doc and sent me to the ER. And I was like 3 days post op or something, groggy like hell, had no friends there with me. I think often surgeons and their teams are just so full of self confidence that they are the "demigods in white" that it is hard to get them to admit problems. On another occasion they switched my patients card and I almost got a knee surgery instead of fixing a broken bone. Again I had to figure it out myself. So I guess generally my conclusion of all of this is - dont go to any surgery and rely on the surgeon and his team. Never turn off your brains and always be informed and always trust your own judgement.
Overall this sounds not like a good experience and I guess what remains to be hoped for is that at least the result will be a good one! This is what counts in the end. I am happy with my SRS result now even though the experience was horrible but in the end the experience there lasted for me a few months and I have the rest of my life to be in the zone where the result is whats important... well small comforts I guess...
If you dont mind me asking though, Kiwi, your hints at your biography suggest that you transitioned extremely young (which I would assume might have saved you from getting too much of a male voice) and then lived for many decades. What brought you to seek out Yeson now? Did your voice get bad because of old age, did you have problems with it all these decades,...? I am asking in part because I am now 15 years after transition with HRT started and I am now considereing doing such a procedure either with Yeson or in Berlin and am interested in motivations and experiences of long term post-ops doing vocal surgery.... Thank you and keep us updated if at least the results are good, if the treatment was not.
Oh and yeah I guess there are not enough people seeking VFS to employ a surgeon fulltime, so all of them do other voice stuff as well. If they are good it will also be singers and famous people going there. I thought it is a good sign as they seem to know how to not to ruin a voice of people who depend on it for a living.
Yes...from my experience in Chonburi and Seoul I have no doubt "we" are treated with less respect than our English speaking countries would tolerate. They just don't seem to respect us, and from what I saw, it is all about the money. Imagine. I am 55 and I am being spoken to very disrespectfully by someone who is maybe 30 years younger than me. If anyone would like to see the photographs please let me know your private email and I will forward them. They are the pictures to these words, and they can't be refuted. I was in a state of distress and the nurses dealt with that by separating my friend from me (under the guise of she could make a phone call to our embassy) and they simply ignored me. Perhaps this is the Korean way? Whatever, it ended up fake. Fake care & concern.
My surgery was performed secretly (in a public plastics hospital) by that I mean, none of the general nursing staff knew what was happening, only the Ward Sister and of course the Dr's. Where talking a long time ago...and because of my "condition" I was to be taken to the photography department but this was something I could not do and was excused from doing it. I took hormones for maybe 3 years but had to stop as the side effects were terrible. I never grew whiskers...well, I did have one, it grew out of a mole on my chin and I called it my Billy Goats Gruff!
While I understand (and have seen video) of being able to turn one's voice into "female" I have never had that training. I chose this surgery because of Jenny's results and the fact Yeson's procedure is pretty safe and the results are what we all want...
I didn't want to die sounding masculine - I didn't want to die looking like an old man either (hence my FFS) but to be fair I neither sounded like a male or looked like one...I was just aging and without the assistance of hormones, I didn't like my aging process. Sometimes on the phone people would pick me for a male, and at my age I don't need that. I shouldn't have to say excuse me it's a Lady your talking to, it interferes with whatever we are talking on the phone about, and it isn't very nice.
Yeson is a world class Voice Surgery centre, no question about that...but this was my experience and you all have a right to know :)
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 22, 2013, 05:10:16 PM
I took hormones for maybe 3 years but had to stop as the side effects were terrible. I never grew whiskers...well, I did have one, it grew out of a mole on my chin and I called it my Billy Goats Gruff!
So you lived without hormones for all that time? post op you had no hormone replacement? Doesnt that cause severe health issues?
But if you had that surgery so soon, did you even have a "male voice" developed already? Or was that already in later puberty or after? At what age did you have it? (I did at 25, way too late for preventing voice changes)
QuoteI chose this surgery because of Jenny's results and the fact Yeson's procedure is pretty safe and the results are what we all want...
Ok. I must say her experience is such a good one that I guess it really is making people want to go there. I am no exception.
QuoteI didn't want to die sounding masculine - I didn't want to die looking like an old man either (hence my FFS) but to be fair I neither sounded like a male or looked like one...I was just aging and without the assistance of hormones, I didn't like my aging process. Sometimes on the phone people would pick me for a male, and at my age I don't need that. I shouldn't have to say excuse me it's a Lady your talking to, it interferes with whatever we are talking on the phone about, and it isn't very nice.
I get that on the phone like 90% of the time. It stings every time for tha past 15 years to correct them. I totally get that getting old and still have masculine stuff going on is not a desireable outcome. I would not want that either, so I am now thinking of doing some more "work", too. Should maybe have done that when I transitioned and save me some 10 years of having to deal with these
QuoteYeson is a world class Voice Surgery centre, no question about that...but this was my experience and you all have a right to know :)
That calms me down hugely, Kiwi - that you think so despite your experience... So I dont have to blacken that entry from my list after all. Not that I would have done so easily anyways, but still gives me more hope now again that if I cannot fix my voice in another way, this option still is a possibility.
I was told I didn't need to worry about HRT, post op I was 18. When I thought I would turn into a bloke (stupid!) I would take something and then my blinding migraines would start (hereditary I'm afraid) The only thing I had was a bone scan to see if my bones had become brittle - to my surprise, they didn't, they haven't. No, I don't think so...everyone thought I was a girl, that was flattering, so no, I obviously never did have a male voice. Can I just say (I could be wrong) but my understanding is that what determines a male/female voice is the length of the vocal chords. Male is longer, female much shorter.
There never used to be, but today there are "blockers" which block the direction the body is going in...I wish I had been born in the last decade, but now I'm being a little two-faced, as I never wanted to be born at all!
Am I happy? As much as I can be. Sadly, I have learned that human nature is not very nice. Human's are the worst predators in my experience. Not crocodiles or sharks...they do what comes naturally to them and human's don't have to make the choices they do...
I think anyone who can afford to should tidy themselves up. It is a great confidence booster (after the pain is over) but there is a cost to your body...each time you go under you notice changes...your hair thins etc.
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 22, 2013, 06:24:47 PM
I obviously never did have a male voice. Can I just say (I could be wrong) but my understanding is that what determines a male/female voice is the length of the vocal chords. Male is longer, female much shorter.
Simply put this is mostly right. But you should know that from your research about how voice works before you went to a voice surgery, right? I mean, you read up on the procedure and how it changes the length of these chords. So I still wonder, if you had SRS so early and never had a male voice, why the surgery now after it went good for so many years?
QuoteI think anyone who can afford to should tidy themselves up. It is a great confidence booster (after the pain is over) but there is a cost to your body...each time you go under you notice changes...your hair thins etc.
What do you mean with "tidy themselves up"?
Confidence boosters are great, I could use some :P
You probably refer to things like FFS and VFS?
Do you say that every time you do get anaesthesia for surgeries you are suffering physically so that hair gets thinner and you just show some ageing more because of that?
It's only my opinion...Just like personal hygiene we need to show respect for ourselves by looking as good as we can. I have a friend who is like us and she has a very large protruding Adam's Apple. She never covers it, and she wears clothes that accentuate her small hips. She has no meat on her as she suffers from (amongst other things) Hepatitis C.
Wearing make-up. The right clothes. Carrying yourself like a woman does.
It doesn't have to cost money, or a lot of money. It's about how we respect ourselves.
Just my opinion.
I've had my voice done because there is nothing else I can do (in my lifetime) to be more feminine. It's that simple. I did it because I could. Because I want a totally female voice...like Jennys. Because I deserve it.
Ok, Kiwi I understand that. I would not want to present things openly that do not fit my gender and I think it would cause me discomfort, though I guess to get over that discomfort is also a valid method to be happier. Instead of constantly worrying about these bits. One can get a bit neurotic aboout it. I tend to hand-comb my bangs all the time because I just dont want my "corners" and temples to show. If I could develop a "I dont care" attitude, I would probably be less affected my such things.
Carrying myself like any woman does, that is really good and I think I would like that. I sometimes feel like I am not able to do it always or in some cases not "allowed", which I know is nonsense, but still the feeling exists and has to be overcome. I am not that feminine though - maybe I dont allow myself to be, maybe I just am not. IDK.
Voice is a thing that really bothers me. I got it right for some time I think but lost it and I think it makes a huge dent in how others and I myself see me. The circle I am in seems to be that I feel like I am not really feminine because of my body, so I feel like I cannot use a feminine voice which in turn gives me the overall impression that my presentation is not feminine which... etc. Some thing has to change - either my mental state (if that is the problem in my self perception), my body (mostly face) or my voice and maybe the rest will be affected by that as well. Usually I would say that changing the mind is best as it does not need surgery, but IDK if that works and if it really is enough to compensat ein the other departments.
I totally get the longing to have a voice like Jenny has. I heard her first post op recordings as the first example of that procedure and I literally cried because she sounded so good. To just have such a voice would be really the greatest thing. But I also know that I will never have that, so I try not to be too excited about it, still it nags at me. Your experience sort of dampened that excitement, but I try not to look at the "surrounding" experience as much as to focus if they got done properly what was the main goal - that you get the voice you deserve to have! Be sure to check back here and tell us how it goes on from here. Did you have troubles in the first 1-2 weeks? Could you keep your voice rested despite the trouble you had?
btw can someone explain to me what is up with that botox injection against vocal tremours. Is that like your vocal chord just twitches by itself and has to be calmed so the voice can heal better?
Quote from: anjaq on October 22, 2013, 06:46:23 PM
So I still wonder, if you had SRS so early and never had a male voice, why the surgery now after it went good for so many years?
What do you mean with "tidy themselves up"?
Everyone tells me I had a female voice (I never thought so really) put it this way when making a voice recording (for answer machine) I would have to do it over and over until I was happy with it. You know how you can pick a Trans by their voice? To the extent that you'd check them out (if you hadn't already been triggered) I think I had a voice a bit like that. My surgery will (should) remove that and remove with it any suggestion that I am not as I appear...a female. It's that simple.
You probably refer to things like FFS and VFS?
Not necessarily...what about those of us who can't afford it? Why should they choose to die because they can't afford surgeries? There are many things we can do to improve our lot, to tidy ourselves up.
The most important thing I think, is positive affirmations "I am a beautiful caring woman" etc. These work on the brain, and they do work. Just as being told you are no good all your life will impact on you. Positive affirmations cost nothing.
Do you say that every time you do get anaesthesia for surgeries you are suffering physically so that hair gets thinner and you just show some ageing more because of that?
I don't know about the aging...LOL. But certainly my hair thinned after 10 hours in Chonburi. After Yeson, nothing obvious as it was only 1 hour.