Well, I wonder how people got used to use non-binary words.
I only have few friends which use non-binary pronouncing and it abit difficult getting used to and I often end up using he and she as a mix, so one day its he and other times it she.
I want it to be more natural.
Some cis gender been said "know we know whats it like to shift the pronouce" but I dont feel its the same.
"he and she" already exist as in everyone clearly know what it means. words like Zhe, Hir, hen*(swedish, pronounce) is often something people dont know even exist and somethimes it seams limited how much you can use it, I wonder how people react if I use it like in a hetronormative crowd how the reaction will be like?
anyway, how did you get use to use the words or how do you use them?
I use "they" a lot now, and "person". It's proven to be a lot easier than I thought, and they're such subtle changes when used regularly in conversation that no one has asked me about it like they might if I started introducing words they'd never heard of before.
To be quite honest, I'm glad that I don't know anyone that goes by neutral pronouns because I would slip up. Not in a misgendering way, but just the fact that pronouns are sets of words and none of them have any sort of standard that makes it easier to remember oh to conjugate them. Not to mention the some prouns are conjugated differently based on what the person in question likes, so you have to memorize like, two different sets for zir and it's just a headache sometimes. I can barely remember my timestables!
I don't think I can use they in my languarge as a casual way it may send the wrong signals.
so far the most used words are hen* (ze) den/det (it)
some people have problem with "it" I try to say it to babys which is "kinda normal accepteed"
but people often have the need to point out its a boy or a girl.
Is there a good non-binary equivalent for Sir/Ma'am? Or a good unisex one? Usually people using Sir/Ma'am don't know. Is there a polite way of calling someone who is presenting, possibly unintentionally androgyne's attention?
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 23, 2013, 01:07:58 PM
Is there a good non-binary equivalent for Sir/Ma'am? Or a good unisex one? Usually people using Sir/Ma'am don't know. Is there a polite way of calling someone who is presenting, possibly unintentionally androgyne's attention?
Here's a good article on some alternatives: http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Gender_neutral_titles
I'm partial to 'ser' myself and have used it in my own fiction.
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 23, 2013, 01:07:58 PM
Is there a good non-binary equivalent for Sir/Ma'am? Or a good unisex one? Usually people using Sir/Ma'am don't know. Is there a polite way of calling someone who is presenting, possibly unintentionally androgyne's attention?
"Excuse me"
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 23, 2013, 01:07:58 PM
Is there a good non-binary equivalent for Sir/Ma'am? Or a good unisex one? Usually people using Sir/Ma'am don't know. Is there a polite way of calling someone who is presenting, possibly unintentionally androgyne's attention?
I thought of that as well,
we dont use sir/maam in my country but I may work in one where they do and dont want to offend the costumers who may be transgender.
I thought saying "exuse me" and say guest/costumer, or something may work?
kinda depends where you are and what you work with I guess
Quote from: Natkat on October 23, 2013, 02:43:35 PM
I thought of that as well,
we dont use sir/maam in my country but I may work in one where they do and dont want to offend the costumers.
I thought saying "exuse me" and say guest/costumer, or something may work?
kinda depends where you are and what you work with I guess
I wouldn't say "excuse me guest" or "excuse me customer" unless you want to sound robotic. Just "excuse me" on its own is fine. It works for women, it works for men, it works for androgynes, it works for aliens from Mars as long as they can understand English.
I don't really get to talk about non-binaries outside this site in english, even if i do that'll be some written msg or chat. so i've settled for using they though it sometimes makes me doubt whether i had got my idea across. the thing is in my language we have only one word for both he and she in colloquial usage. in my language's written form the pronouns can go quite confusing in terms of gender unless it's your mother tongue. it has separate words for he she her his him her, but when referring to someone already mentioned in the same sentence, him her his her equivalents are gender neutral. himself herself are unisex too. we only lack a term for he she, so we go with that person. when i use they to imply singular, i use it as a substitute for such pronouns, but as they has its own meaning even i get confused by own writing at times. i wish english too had similar set of pronouns in the first place where emphasizing on gender would not be necessary, rather than having to invent pronouns by ourselves.
everyday conversation i use he him himself her she herself most of the time.
My use of non-binary gender neutral terms, when I don't use their name, is limited to mostly they them themself, one , a person, people, oneself. what's-their-name, who-ya-ma-call-it, what's-their-face
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on October 23, 2013, 03:18:06 PM
Do you have the equivalent of 'Y'all'?
* 'You Are Amazingly Attractive' might work as a greeting, it worked well for me if I wanted to know them more than as just a customer. ;)
We got a word for all/everyone? but honestly if I said a sentence like that people would think I was flirting, so unless it where the purpose it would be akward and they might get kinda unconfortable.
(or maybe I should just work somewhere only with attractive people who wont think twice about it, they would be like "sure we know XD)
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on October 23, 2013, 03:18:06 PM
Do you have the equivalent of 'Y'all'?
* 'You Are Amazingly Attractive' might work as a greeting, it worked well for me if I wanted to know them more than as just a customer. ;)
+ I am too buzy to flirt with all my costumers.
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on October 24, 2013, 03:30:12 PM
Y'all is how 'You all' is pronounced regionally in the US. So yes, it is a all/everyone greeting.
The other one is a total flirting greeting. I just threw that in for fun.
I do say that in place of a usual greeting at times. Most people will smile, so it's fun. :)
Ativan
I think I should be carefull I am very bad at reciving compliments and very bad at giving compliments, most people get pretty angry at me for trying.
hmm... as more I think of it as harder it get, maybe I should just learn the names of all the costumers and go by names. or call them all "persons"
hmm...
I guess its the thought who coint,
Do most non-binary people prefer these words? It doesn't really bother me at all if someone uses he and I kind of like it when they use she, I have to draw the line at it though.
I love this thread. It has made me realize that my whole life I have avoided using gender specific pronouns when ever possible. It wasn't anything I thought about I just seemed to do it. Anyone else like that?
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 27, 2013, 11:19:19 PM
Do most non-binary people prefer these words? It doesn't really bother me at all if someone uses he and I kind of like it when they use she, I have to draw the line at it though.
"Non-binary" includes a lot of different gender identifications, and some of those genders have people who use all sorts of pronoun sets, so, no. There is no "non-binary preference". ;)
Personally, I don't care about pronouns and will take whatever people call me.
epicene "they" is probably the safest pronoun in english. i use it all the time in english, when i know someone to not be binary, when i'm talking about a hypothetical person, when i don't want to disclose someone's gender etc.
it's fairly easy to get used to as well, can't be much weirder than it was for people to start using "you" all the time instead of "thou".
i use other 3rd gender pronouns when people request it. all i need to do to get used to it, is to use them. pretty simple really.
i avoid using any equivalent of "it" in germanic languages at least. in saami, there are cases where it's more natural to use "it" than "ze" about a person (we don't have gendered pronouns), kind of opposite of norwegian dialects where it is common to call thing "he" or "she" instead of it.
pronouns are fun. any words are fun. and the easiest way to make something new and strange natural, is to use it. i know a girl who uses gender neutral "hen" perfectly naturally in swedish. made me happy to see saami a pronoun translated to an equally ungendered pronoun in swedish.
Fortunately, in English, gender is basically only used in the third person singular and possessive. Is there more dysphoria in francophone and Spanish speaking countries where everything from tables to rocks has to have a gender for whatever insane traditional reason?
It's just the nature of the Romance languages that developed from Latin. I don't know about French and Italian-speakers, but I hear that most queer and nonbinary-identified folks in Latin America don't care. There really is no changing the gendered qualities of the language because it's so fundamental. At that point you might as well just speak English, but then that becomes a question of just a different sort if colonialization. Not a day goes by where I don't lament the fact that my own family stopped speaking Spanish a few generations ago so that they could have a "better life".
I tried figuring out genderless singular pronouns, but nothing flows as effortlessly and plays down the concept of gender as effectively as the singular they/them/their. Some grammar nuts will resist you, but while it's not the most "proper" manner of speaking, it's still correct.
Quote from: Kaelin on November 11, 2013, 08:12:21 AM
Some grammar nuts will resist you, but while it's not the most "proper" manner of speaking, it's still correct.
well, I already had alot of them, one more or less probably wont make a big diffrence,
Quote from: Lo on November 10, 2013, 12:20:58 PM
It's just the nature of the Romance languages that developed from Latin. I don't know about French and Italian-speakers, but I hear that most queer and nonbinary-identified folks in Latin America don't care. There really is no changing the gendered qualities of the language because it's so fundamental.
So essentially, there is no way of referring to nonbinary people in their own language then without giving them some sort of binary article...
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on November 11, 2013, 11:53:55 PM
So essentially, there is no way of referring to nonbinary people in their own language then without giving them some sort of binary article...
There are ways, but they just aren't so useful in spoken conversation even though they look good written. Like Latin@. There are a few ways to say that, but there's no consensus, and most spoken attempts, I've heard, end up sounding silly or too close to a gendered alternative anyways. I don't know what language is used to refer to groups of other-gendered people though, like the
muxes.
In the Philippines, Tagalog uses non-binary pronouns "siya" direct, subject, "kaniya" oblique/preposition, "niya" indirect/possessive/object for both she/he, her/ him, his/ hers.