Honestly, although it is helpful to many of you, I don't think I can do it, because I had a really bad experience with psychologists when I was a kid. Like a lot of us, I was picked on by the kids at school for being different, and I fought back and acted out. After my sessions with the school psychologist, he recommended to the principal that I be put in special education. He also convinced my parents that I needed therapy and I saw more psychologists and psychiatrists than I care to remember. I'm sure with my luck, if I saw a therapist wanting to get my gender dysphoria diagnosis letter, I'd instead get diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder or something and get committed for my own safety.
Psychology is so stupid anyway, one day everything Freud said was seen as fact, the next day it's all wrong, one day homosexuality is a mental illness, the next day it's not. I have a feeling one day gender dysphoria will not be either.
Baby, our stories are identical. I was actually abused by therapist's and psychiatrist's from about 1971-1975. I know first hand what you went through, but I started to see a therapist at OSU (a doctoral candidate) and they are a new breed today. I have actually relaxed and formed a trust with my therapist that I could only imagine long ago. It has been very good for me and when he officially diagnosed me with Gender Dysphoria I knew I had made the right choice to see him as it made HRT much easier to obtain. I know we should not have to prove ourselves to anyone before treatment and it is not fair, but you have to play the game if you want to change and do it in a healthy way. Just relax and check out the therapy options in your area. I was a Paramedic/Firefighter and thought I knew it all and did not need any help at all. It took a while to have the courage to walk in his office, but I did it and do not regret it for an instant. I am on the road to becoming who I should have been all along. Please do not skip this VERY important step. If you don't believe me read the stories of others here and how they had to learn to trust to let the real them out and enjoy life for maybe the first time in their lives. PM me if you have ANY questions on this or anything else. BIG HUG!! :)
I second Jessica's post and invite you to PM me, too...
Therapists these days are a very different breed, and a good gender therapist will talk to you, listen to your concerns, and help you. My GT is very practical and helpful. She understands that I am going to her to get a letter, and has offered her services in going over a number of legal things like name changes, etc. She has built a list over the years of trans friendly doctors *and* the ratings her clients give her.
So I know the endo she recommended is a good one; she's sent many trans* men and women to her over the years and has gotten glowing reviews. I've recently asked her to research trans aware GP's in the area and she is working on that for me. She understands my concerns about being tall and passing, and is setting up a meeting with a successful, tall trans woman she has helped who has helped her in the past.
Also, she has never once asked me to tell her about my mother. After listening to my reasons for being there and being reassured I know what I am doing, she is focused on who I am and where I am in my transition, and how to get me to where I need to be.
That being said, there *are* ways to transition without a therapist (read the WPATH standards), but given the help my own has been on a purely practical level, I can't imagine why I would want to transition without one.
*hug*
PS- I see Miss Bungle weighed in before I could hit "Post"... still posting this because there are *some* insights left... :)
As someone who has seen more than a dozen therapists, psychologists, counselors, and psychiatrists, I share your skepticism.
I once did an inventory. A third of them actually helped me a lot. A third of them did nothing. And a third of them did damage of some kind. And they all took my money.
All of that was decades in the past. I hadn't seen a therapist since the 1980s. At 52, I'm a stable, well-adjusted, longtime parent and professional who manages her personal and professional affairs effectively. I resent having to see a therapist just to "prove" I'm competent to decide what gender I am.
That being said, my insurance company is footing most of the bill for my current therapist, and I find seeing her somewhat helpful.
My father was a psychologist and one of the most unstable people I ever met. So no, I don't like them. However, I needed to find one so that I could get HRT. I took two months and found a good one having I screened a whole bunch before I found her. She's good. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for her guidance. So, I guess they can be OK.
I also think you were right. One day they will find a genetic cause for our condition. I can hardly wait.
Hugs,
Jen
The worst part was not that they convinced my parents and principal something was wrong with me, after years of special education and therapy, they eventually convinced me there was something wrong with me, that it was me that was being antisocial, that I was different in ways other than being trans*, that I was a bad person. It really took me decades to get past that. Going to a therapist to me is going back to that place, thinking there is something wrong with me. There's nothing wrong with me, there's something wrong with society, and if anything it's the kids that pick on gay and trans* kids that need therapy and special education. I think I'd rather not transition than ever go to a therapist again.
I could be wrong, but I think WHO you choose as a therapist will make all the difference in the world. Just like choosing a friend or partner. Each one is different. Some good some bad.
And you can shop around, too! I talked to my therapist on the phone for about 15 minutes first and didn't look any further, but there's nothing saying you can't call a few and choose.
Therapy isn't about the therapist... it's about you. If the therapist gets in the way of that, you need a different one.
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 25, 2013, 01:06:38 PM
The worst part was not that they convinced my parents and principal something was wrong with me, after years of special education and therapy, they eventually convinced me there was something wrong with me, that it was me that was being antisocial, that I was different in ways other than being trans*, that I was a bad person. It really took me decades to get past that. Going to a therapist to me is going back to that place, thinking there is something wrong with me. There's nothing wrong with me, there's something wrong with society, and if anything it's the kids that pick on gay and trans* kids that need therapy and special education. I think I'd rather not transition than ever go to a therapist again.
I can totally relate,
Since I was a kid I been dignosed, and sent to psycologic conversations over and over because people didn't get WTF was wrong with me?
aparently I was just "diffrent" and being trans and general having a queer mind is sure pretty challenging specially when you dont exist in the sociaty. I had to talk to diffrent adults each week for years who didnt knew anything about being transgender. its always something about I have to educate them about being trans and there speakless and knows nothing or also they are ignorant and try to talk it agenst me.
-
So yeah I also had pretty bad experience with them, the psycologict I got now is probably a nice guy but as mention he dont have much knowlegde what its like to be trans which make it seams kinda pointless.
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despite the fact I feel almost traumatic about the psycologic thing I belive its good that transgender are offered a short period of therapy. Transition IS very hard, even when it may bring alot of happyness it can also easy bring sorror with rejection from famly or friends or losing a job and such things.
I think its good for everyone to be able to talk with someone about there transition who wont goship about it, the problem is just that its not always easy to find therapist who really get whats it about, and for sure you dont get anything out from talking to a therapist who works agenst you they have to work with you and suport you in the procces to make the right decisions and to get on the other side as the best part of you.
my friends worked for me as a therapist, =) so if your good good friends you can talk to about everything then its also cool.
I currently do a small protject where I make a list of psycologist which other transgender had good experience with.
sure its not a green card to say that they would atomatically be good, But if someone other trans had a good experience with someone I belive there probably not too ignorant around the whole trans issue and it would make me abit more safe to know than if I went to a random therapist and they would start asking question "what is transgender?"
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If you have read Freuds three essays on sexuality, you will, like me, have a hard time understanding why anyone listened to a damned word he said. Amongst other assertions, he says that babies deliberately don't defecate, so that they might gain some sexual pleasure from the release. He was a nut job and didn't use scientific methods in establishing his theories, instead he offered personal thoughts based on personal observations as psychology.
I believe the Danish now teach that trans-genderness is not a mental illness now. It's coming.
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 25, 2013, 01:06:38 PM
The worst part was not that they convinced my parents and principal something was wrong with me, after years of special education and therapy, they eventually convinced me there was something wrong with me, that it was me that was being antisocial, that I was different in ways other than being trans*, that I was a bad person. It really took me decades to get past that. Going to a therapist to me is going back to that place, thinking there is something wrong with me. There's nothing wrong with me, there's something wrong with society, and if anything it's the kids that pick on gay and trans* kids that need therapy and special education. I think I'd rather not transition than ever go to a therapist again.
So find an informed consent clinic or get HRT directly through a primary care physician. Therapy is no longer a required step for any part of transition other than SRS. And if you want SRS you can deal with that when you reach that bridge.
I'd also point out that there are different kinds of therapists. A psychologist is not a psychiatrist is not a psychotherapist is not a social worker. They all have different training models and backgrounds. Maybe find out what the people who abused you were and find a very different kind of therapist?
At the moment I am only seeing my therapist if I feel like I want to talk to someone. She is not pushing me to see her on a weekly basis - mostly it is once per month - but if my insurance would cover that, I would see her more often, of course, but not because I need the therapy, but because she is a nice person for conversation :). Also, seeing her is in no way related to my transition, which is supervised by endo, thus doing or not doing therapy is indeed only my choice to make.
Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on October 25, 2013, 02:28:07 PM
I believe the Danish now teach that trans-genderness is not a mental illness now. It's coming.
they already changed the DSM too from disorder to dsyphoria I think, or they are about to, so that is a step in the right direction here in the U.S. at least.
http://www.hrc.org/blog/entry/apa-to-remove-gender-identity-disorder-from-dsm-5/
this is what happened with homosexuality too - eventually it was removed and left with some sort of placeholder
Good luck finding someone you can work with Veronica. It is worth it to spend time finding the right person. You also don't necessarily have to spend forever with them, depending on how you feel about everything and what the requirements in your area are. There may also be informed consent options available.
There may be something to be said for talking to someone about it even with informed consent, if you can find someone you trust. You may find that it allows you to resolve a lot of the damage that was inflicted from years of dealing with people who didn't understand.
Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on October 25, 2013, 02:28:07 PM
I believe the Danish now teach that trans-genderness is not a mental illness now. It's coming.
It's still a mental illness in Denmark. But I don't think it dose much to do with freud? ???
the changing of DSM should help changing it somewhere in the future I belive.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 25, 2013, 02:34:49 PM
At the moment I am only seeing my therapist if I feel like I want to talk to someone. She is not pushing me to see her on a weekly basis - mostly it is once per month - but if my insurance would cover that, I would see her more often, of course, but not because I need the therapy, but because she is a nice person for conversation :). Also, seeing her is in no way related to my transition, which is supervised by endo, thus doing or not doing therapy is indeed only my choice to make.
I want a therapist like that..
I personally want nothing to do with therapists.
I have found an endo in Denver that will prescribe HRT on the informed consent model, and have found therapists who will write SRS letters after a Skype interview.
I saw a legion of therapists when I was a teen. They could have saved me decades of misery by recognizing that I was trans back then....but instead they prescribed me Valium and collected their fees.
As the OP stated....some people may benefit from a good therapist, but I am not one of those people at this stage of my life. I know what I need, and the safe, proper way to get it, and I don't need permission from a shrink to do so.
Well there is one shrink I saw in the 90s, I'd gladly throw her under a bus.
There is a guy I think was mainly just useless.
I met a nice one in connection with my gender issues.
But my gold star goes to a woman who is really just a case worker. Just a woman with some basic background related training, and not an actual shrink or anything. But she earned my trust over the years. And thanks to many years of talking with her, I don't need the hassle of recanting my life to her when I need to talk about something.
The thing I hate about the field of psychiatry, is the need to spend 3 sessions getting them up to speed on my life story. I have gotten into the habit of telling them to come here, read my posts and then read some of my Facebook page. Well not so much a habit, but a plan.
I don't really need therapy, I just want to be told when it is my turn to get rid of the pecker and his friends and replace it with the right part.
That and the right hormone arrangement. I don't need a therapist, I have my friends at Susan's place when I'm feeling in need of talking. And at least you people understand the topic :)
I don't want anything more to do with therapists, and I feel I would've come out sooner if I had never came out to my last one. (and she didn't even say anything bad)
Quote from: Sarah7 on October 25, 2013, 02:31:30 PM
So find an informed consent clinic or get HRT directly through a primary care physician. Therapy is no longer a required step for any part of transition other than SRS. And if you want SRS you can deal with that when you reach that bridge.
I'd also point out that there are different kinds of therapists. A psychologist is not a psychiatrist is not a psychotherapist is not a social worker. They all have different training models and backgrounds. Maybe find out what the people who abused you were and find a very different kind of therapist?
I don't really care that much about HRT. It's less important to me because I don't really for whatever reason, have a very masculine body. I do want SRS, really the therapist isn't the primary thing preventing me from having it, it's the money. If I had the money or saw the money I need coming in the near future, I may see things differently.
I wasn't abused, that was another poster, just misunderstood. I didn't really understand what I was doing different, so I didn't really know how to answer the psychologists questions. At the time, I wasn't fully aware I was transgendered, or such a thing existed. I was also not even really gender aware, to where I didn't understand that unicorns, rainbows, and the Smurfs were things that gave off gay signals, I didn't even know what gay was, and that playing with the girls was somehow socially a bad thing, even though they were nice to me and fun to play with, and the boys were mean to me.
Do I relate to comments about damaging therapists! I shared some of my gender struggles with two therapists a few years back and the results were disastrous. One started treating me like a freak, the other like a repressed gay male. Because I'm neither, the whole thing was terribly painful.
So why did I seek out and find a third person to work with? Basically, I realized I could not walk this terrain alone. I was so terribly stuck and so terribly depressed and could see no way forward. Having learned so much from my first experiences, I was much more discerning third time around and it's been very helpful.
Perhaps this is one good guideline around the 'to therapy' or 'not to therapy' question: If you are moving forward on your own (or with the help of friends, etc...), by all means keep walking. If, however, you are as stuck as I was, seek help. If your seeking takes a while, keep at it.
I wonder how many people are going to someone who is actually damaging. I'd guess from what I read here that the no. is pretty high. I had a very great experience which I am very happy to have had. I didn't go to get T or anything. I needed to figure out what was going on with me. As it happened I got a primary care physician (actually a PA) and she prescribed the T. I didn't need a letter. I did need a letter for surgery.
--Jay
I don't know. This thread is scaring me. :o
Quote from: Natkat on October 25, 2013, 01:41:14 PM
my friends worked for me as a therapist, =) so if your good good friends you can talk to about everything then its also cool.
Bingo! My friends have always been the best and only support I'll ever need.
I'll need to see someone eventually to tick the required boxes for NHS funding of treatment, but I don't see how someone that doesn't know me could help with the few issues I have left since admitting to myself that I was trans.
They only have what you tell them to try and build a picture of your personality and who you are. People can quite easily be infallible narrators when it comes to themselves, whereas friends see you and how you are quite frequently get the widescreen version of you instead of the novelisation thats based on an earlier draft of the script...
(This is just me though, I'm quite lucky in the support network I have around me. Others that aren't so lucky may have more benefits from therapy, and that fits them fine as well)
Quote from: Kaylee on October 26, 2013, 03:30:05 AMBingo! My friends have always been the best and only support I'll ever need.
You're lucky to have offline friends. There are 3 therapists I see, and will need to add 2 more. All that I currently see are aware I'm trans. The only person who I may consider a friend (Don't know yet, only got to know her for a few hours at a hockey game and then dinner afterwards) doesn't yet know, as a few hours isn't enough to trust someone.
Quote from: Willow on October 26, 2013, 03:38:05 AM
You're lucky to have offline friends. There are 3 therapists I see, and will need to add 2 more. All that I currently see are aware I'm trans. The only person who I may consider a friend (Don't know yet, only got to know her for a few hours at a hockey game and then dinner afterwards) doesn't yet know, as a few hours isn't enough to trust someone.
Sorry to here that hun, at least you've got plenty of friends on here though... :)
To me my friends are my family, when first coming out it was loosing them that I was worried about, not my mother/brothers etc
Quote from: Kaylee on October 26, 2013, 03:46:06 AMSorry to here that hun, at least you've got plenty of friends on here though... :)
To me my friends are my family, when first coming out it was loosing them that I was worried about, not my mother/brothers etc
Not being able to tell people has been the difficult part. Woemn tend not to want male friends, and I don't act masculine enough to have male friends.I try though, and I guess that's what counts, I'd just like to see results.
My family is all I have. I loose them, I loose everything. Therapy isn't an effective replacement for friends or family, but it's all I've got, barring the transgender meeting I go to every Thursday for an hour, where I can be myself for a change.
Quote from: Kaylee on October 26, 2013, 03:30:05 AM
Bingo! My friends have always been the best and only support I'll ever need.
I'll need to see someone eventually to tick the required boxes for NHS funding of treatment, but I don't see how someone that doesn't know me could help with the few issues I have left since admitting to myself that I was trans.
They only have what you tell them to try and build a picture of your personality and who you are. People can quite easily be infallible narrators when it comes to themselves, whereas friends see you and how you are quite frequently get the widescreen version of you instead of the novelisation thats based on an earlier draft of the script...
(This is just me though, I'm quite lucky in the support network I have around me. Others that aren't so lucky may have more benefits from therapy, and that fits them fine as well)
Wow Kaylee! You put that very well. I went to a therapist a while back, thinking I need to work more on my womanhood issues than my gender issues. I spent more sessions educating her on transgender and intersex, than I received back in results. I booked! I am searching for someone for a different set of issues including a surgery letter. I quite agree my girl friends are my best hope in understanding me. Hug. Joann
Ok several points come to mind here, and none of this is official medical advice, just points based on my own individual experiences.
First VeronicaLynn you can't have SRS without HRT – seriously you just can't medically, or you will be in fairly terrible state within a decade. Your adult body can't function properly without enough steroidal hormones and once you have SRS your steroid factories are gone. So HRT is then pretty much a matter of life and death.
Second and more important point (which is also slightly more generally relevant) – you are assuming that all therapy and all therapists are the same which is like saying all fruit is the same and that because you had bad experiences with a banana an apple and a grape then you KNOW for sure that you also won't like strawberries.
Point is, taking the definition at its widest even a doctor is a therapist. Yes the therapy that they provide is mostly via the physical domain rather than the psychological, but if you look in the dictionary you will still find that treatment IS synonymous with therapy and thus all doctors are therapists. You don't want therapy now? – fine forget the whole darn thing and enjoy your life unaltered, because surgery is a radical form of therapy!
Ok you may think I'm just playing with words here, and in a way I am, but what I am trying to get you to see is the level to which you have pre-judged a whole class of things based on a few bad experiences – and that frankly defensive behaviour, however honest it is in motivation, will always tend to make clinicians worried, in case it comes with a hidden agenda.
In law all treatment is technically a form of assault. Which is why we have to get consent before we touch you. If I, as a medical student, or future doctor, treats you in any way without your informed consent we can be had up for a serious criminal offense – and it has happened. Doctors get struck off, put in prison even, because they failed to get meaningful informed consent before treating.
So what does this mean. Well unfortunately it doesn't just mean that you rock up and say "I want this, ergo I consent." We actually are required by the courts to demonstrate that the treatment was necessary, or at least had a rationale, that you understood what would happen, and that you were in your capacitous mind (that is to say you were not delusional or in an altered state of consciousness) at the time you consented.
If any of these tests fails and you later have regrets, suffer ill effect, or worse die as a partial consequence of the treatment we provide, then we can be, and indeed often are, criminally charged.
So the bottom line is this – no one goes into medicine wanting to say no to people. Every one of us does it because we WANT to help people live better, happier, healthier lives. But at the same time while we live in a society ruled by law and lawyers, we also have to take steps to protect ourselves, and that is where the screening requirements come in.
IT IS NOT repeat NOT supposed to be about stopping you doing something which you legitimately want to do, nor is it supposed to be about persuading you to do something else. It is about ensuring that when you give your INFORMED consent, that consent IS legally valid and properly informed.
To do this you don't have to go and sit in a psycho-analysts chair for weeks talking about the effect of way that you doggie barked at you when you were three.
What you do have to do is see, at least once, and probably two or three times, someone who is either psychiatrically trained, or a qualified analyst with experience of gender work. These people do NOT want to section you, analyse you, or indeed anything much. However without their sign off, any surgeon or doctor who lays a finger on you can be struck off, sued, and imprisoned for assault, and much as they would all love to help you, you can't ask them to take that much of a risk on solely the basis of the word of someone that they have never seen before (you).
I hope this helps. Believe me I do feel for you. I was mildly intersexed at birth, and was allowed to grow up androgynously. However I didn't have any corrective surgery until I was a young adult. I thought because I had a medical basis for the treatment that I would be allowed to go through on the nod. I wasn't – in fact my reluctance to see the therapist and get the paper signed cost me a few years delay. Ultimately I found a compromise that I could live with, but even then I had to go and see a psychiatrist and prove that I was sane, simply to protect the surgeon. The irony is, when I finally did it, I found the psychiatrist I saw to be very pleasant, and indeed we later became very good friends.
So my message is this – you don't have to spend years at this, and it doesn't have to be a battle, but you will have to compromise with the rules enough to protect your doctors. If you really can't do that, then sadly you may not be suitable for treatment, because part of being suitable is to be a reasonable adult person, and willing to work with your doctors rather than fighting them.
Is applause socially acceptable here? If it is I want to give Dr Who a standing ovation!
I would also like to add that in years of seeing therapists intermittently, I did receive good usable help.
When my then spouse discovered a TV program about ADD, we talked and it seemed I may have that problem. I was tested and I was in the bonus round. I have ADHD! I could not do the meds so I stopped, yet with therapy I learned to work with it.
Later, I had what felt all the world like heart attacks. Nope just anxiety attacks. Again I stopped the meds and therapy gave me my life back.
At one point seeing a counselor, she asked my why I always seemed like a third person narrator to my own life. Not too many sessions in, I finally found my true emotions. I cried a bucket of tears and I found a new me. It stemmed from the two distinct personalities I have. Not known then by her but by me, is the truth I have a male personality and a female personality, I always kept her hidden. Today I am the she that is me, he just fades into retirement I guess. Thank you HRT.
My latest in my mix is finding out I am intersexed. The hits just keep on coming! That is cool too. Good female coding makes my hormonal changes fabulous! I have to go through all the steps to be able to correct a wrong choice the doctors made at my birth. No balking here.
OK what's my point. Good things can come from therapy. It sound like you are replaying bad events in youth, like a taped loop in your head. Just a guess. As adults we have to erase the tapes so we can have a happier life. Maybe rethink this all and don't throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater. Luck on your journey. Hug. Joann
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 25, 2013, 12:04:07 PM
Psychology is so stupid anyway,
The most soul crushing thing is when the doctor tells you, "PEOPLE ARE BORN MALE OR FEMALE".
That's when you hit your doctor with everything you know about non-binary individuals. And that's when you find a new doctor.
Quote from: Doctorwho? on October 26, 2013, 04:57:41 AM
First VeronicaLynn you can't have SRS without HRT – seriously you just can't medically, or you will be in fairly terrible state within a decade. Your adult body can't function properly without enough steroidal hormones and once you have SRS your steroid factories are gone. So HRT is then pretty much a matter of life and death.
While I wasn't saying what I want to do is have SRS without HRT, rather I was not wanting to have HRT without SRS, I have to call BS on this one. How many thousands of eunuchs were there in ancient Rome and China? How many Hijra are there in India even today? Surely they didn't all die in less than ten years.
Didn't say death, said a terrible state, it does cause bone loss and therefore make you prone to breaks, sometimes fatal, but still painful and your bones will not heal as fast. There is some relation to other hormones in your body as well.
Quote from: LordKAT on October 26, 2013, 02:31:37 PM
Didn't say death, said a terrible state, it does cause bone loss and therefore make you prone to breaks, sometimes fatal, but still painful and your bones will not heal as fast. There is some relation to other hormones in your body as well.
Life or death seems like death to me. I do appreciate what everyone is saying. In some ways, I might be non-binary, but have a binary way of thinking, which is why SRS seems so important to me. HRT without SRS is definitely not what's right for me, but it is what's right for quite a lot of people. I actually don't mind most of the effects of testosterone has on my body, I like my sex drive and increased strength. My only issues with it are hair related, and there's other ways of dealing with that. I don't at all like the roles being a male forces on me, and people telling me I can't do this or can't do that because I'm a guy, or that women are fearful of me because of the way other men treat them, or expect that I'm going to treat them badly.
I guess it's just going to take me a while to figure out if I am non-binary, and what that really means for me.
I'm not interested in therapy for the time being for my depression (I've seen half a dozen folks in the past 15 years for months at a time, and none of them were able to help me in the way that I needed them to). I'm also not interested in gender therapy because I don't really need it. I'm non-binary and not planning on getting any surgery that a doctor would think is gender-related, so I don't need a sign off. I also don't need their approval... seems like it would be hard to find a doctor that would understand anyways. Husband and I are probably going to go ahead with a little online marriage counselling since we're LDR and he hasn't yet figured out how to sort through his feelings regarding my desire to transition, though he is 100% supportive, so this would just be to help aid communication between us.
But no, it's not necessary in my case so why even bother.
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 26, 2013, 02:13:48 PM
While I wasn't saying what I want to do is have SRS without HRT, rather I was not wanting to have HRT without SRS, I have to call BS on this one. How many thousands of eunuchs were there in ancient Rome and China? How many Hijra are there in India even today? Surely they didn't all die in less than ten years.
Do we know how long they lived compared to the general population and what their quality of life was as they aged?
Well DrWho....I feel that there's something that has been overlooked.
The fact that people go to cosmetic surgeons all the time, without psychological screening, sign a consent form, and have birth defects corrected.
I expect to be treated no differently, and I really see no logical, rational, realistic reason why I should be. If I were having a tail removed, or a vestigial appendage, it would be a simple matter of signing a consent form and providing insurance information.
It is ONLY because of the "moral and ethical" aspect of modifying one's gender that were are treated any differently, and I'm sorry but I find that unacceptable.
Thankfully, progress is being made on this front.
TaoRaven, you are exactly right.
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 26, 2013, 02:13:48 PM
While I wasn't saying what I want to do is have SRS without HRT, rather I was not wanting to have HRT without SRS, I have to call BS on this one. How many thousands of eunuchs were there in ancient Rome and China? How many Hijra are there in India even today? Surely they didn't all die in less than ten years.
Sorry but its not BS at all - most Eunuchs were castrated
before puberty. When you go through puberty it causes irreversible physiological changes which then need to be sustained. Thus the effects of the withdrawal of steroids after puberty has taken place will be more rapid in onset than they would have been if no puberty had happened at all. Thats why I said your
adult body - and not just your body. In medical science
all the words in the sentence do matter...
In any case I didn't actually say you would die within the 10 years but that within 10 years you would be in a very poor state. This is because in the absence of steroids at sufficient levels several types of dysgenesis take place. The most obvious being the formation of brittle bones, Osteoporosis, which can be mitigated somewhat with bisphosphonates as long as you do take them - however they are not the only potential issues, and while none of them will kill you outright, if you are one of the affected people they will seriously reduce your quality of life.
You have to remember that until recent times people only lived for an average of 40 years. Essentially what you would get without steroidal supplementation is a form of accelerated ageing. It might not kill you, but it would kill your lifestyle because, as I said you would likely become frail and several of your bodily systems could prematurely age. Osteoporosis alone can be fairly crippling. Ok its only a risk, not everyone ages the same way, but it is a high enough and serious enough risk not to be one worth taking.
In any case this is not me making all this up - next friday I'm taking a real live exam in my medical degree at the University of London on this very subject so I actually have the proper University of London recommended medical textbooks open in front of me as I write. For reference they are Kumar & Clarke - Clinical Medicine 8th ed, Brooke & Marshall - Essential Endocrinology 3rd ed and Johnson & Everitt - Essential Reproduction 5th Ed.
However you clearly believe that I'm talking a load of bull, so all I can say is good luck with your journey.
Quote from: Doctorwho? on October 27, 2013, 01:26:00 AM
Sorry but its not BS at all - most Eunuchs were castrated before puberty.
Most, but not all. It is also done physically and chemically as punitive measure for sex offenders and as an effective treatment for prostate cancer. I'm not saying there aren't some problems associated with the absence of steroids, just that you are overstating the problems, even by saying a very poor state.
Quote from: Doctorwho? on October 27, 2013, 01:26:00 AM
You have to remember that until recent times people only lived for an average of 40 years.
You are also neglecting to mention or understand that the average life span of 40 years is largely skewed by infants not making it past childhood, women not making it through childbirth, and warfare. Healthy people didn't just die when they turned 40, it was not uncommon for people to live to their 60's, 70's, and beyond throughout human history. I wish you luck with your medical degree, but it seems like you just read the current medical textbooks, and didn't pay much attention in your general undergraduate studies and develop critical thinking skills. You should not accept what's in those medical textbooks as the whole truth, just the best treatments currently known, because I guarantee they'll say something completely different 20 years from now.
There is much that is not known about the human body, and the brain is really the part least understood. Part of the reason I am so skeptical of psychologists is also that they are attempting to treat something they don't understand. The basic functions of memory and thought are not really fully understood at all, and if they don't know how the basic functions work how can they treat mental problems? It's like taking a broken down car to someone who has never even opened the hood of car, but drove a few, and asking them to fix it. They know what it's supposed to do, and that it's not doing that now, but not how it works.
If I remember right, prostate cancer is sometimes treated with estrogen which would provide the needed hormone.
It's treated with anti-androgens. Both normal and cancerous prostate cells need testosterone to grow, removing it stops or at least slows the growth of the cancerous cells.
I know someone who is on this treatment, which is why I know so much about it. He doesn't have any bone problems, just takes calcium supplements. It did somewhat change his personality though, which is really my primary reason for not wanting HRT. It's somewhat irrational to want SRS and then want testosterone, just so I look like a girl down there. I don't like my body looking like a guy, but I really like my personality. I don't want it to change.
Knowing one person doesn't mean knowing all. I did say sometimes.
I also understand better now your reluctance for HRT. Not all or even most people change personality by being on HRT. Perhaps look into the odds of that happening and then perhaps give it a trial run. It is reversible for the most part early on.
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 27, 2013, 11:40:27 AM
it seems like you just read the current medical textbooks, and didn't pay much attention in your general undergraduate studies and develop critical thinking skills. You should not accept what's in those medical textbooks as the whole truth, just the best treatments currently known, because I guarantee they'll say something completely different 20 years from now.
Maybe - maybe not... I happen to disagree based on both a reasoned argument and some personal experience, because I've been taking HRT for around 35 years.
You do make huge assumptions about me - a person whom you can have no knowledge of. The accusation that I haven't developed my critical skills is a little presumptuous, not to say rude, when in fact I am in my 50's already a double postgraduate already holding multiple degrees both in sciences and humanities in both of which fields I have taught and contributed. Medicine is a career development for me not a starting point.
I've actually thought through my position far more critically than there is scope for expounding in a place like this, and the fact that we have come to different conclusions doesn't necessarily mean that I haven't thought about it. Just that my evaluation and conclusions are different from yours. Yes I was possibly painting things in a slightly overstated simplistic way because I honestly don't believe this is the place for detailed arguments about statistical outcomes and other rather more in depth information, and indeed most people wouldn't have been that interested. The partial citation of texts was actually not intended to prove anything beyond the fact that there is an argument to be had, and therefore applying the black and white term "BS" was a little over the top in my view.
I do percieve you have a rather poor opinion of what doctors do and don't know, maybe with reason, I don't know, although of course I agree that it remains a developing field of knowledge. However ultimately I was just trying to help, but I can see that I'm not achieving that, so we shall agree to disagree and I shall trouble you no more. My sincere apologies that my well meaning original comments have not proved helpful on this occasion.
Quote from: Doctorwho? on October 27, 2013, 04:22:14 PM
Maybe - maybe not... I happen to disagree based on both a reasoned argument and some personal experience, because I've been taking HRT for around 35 years.
You do make huge assumptions about me - a person whom you can have no knowledge of. The accusation that I haven't developed my critical skills is a little presumptuous, not to say rude, when in fact I am in my 50's already a double postgraduate already holding multiple degrees both in sciences and humanities in both of which fields I have taught and contributed. Medicine is a career development for me not a starting point.
I've actually thought through my position far more critically than there is scope for expounding in a place like this, and the fact that we have come to different conclusions doesn't necessarily mean that I haven't thought about it. Just that my evaluation and conclusions are different from yours. Yes I was possibly painting things in a slightly overstated simplistic way because I honestly don't believe this is the place for detailed arguments about statistical outcomes and other rather more in depth information, and indeed most people wouldn't have been that interested. The partial citation of texts was actually not intended to prove anything beyond the fact that there is an argument to be had, and therefore applying the black and white term "BS" was a little over the top in my view.
I do percieve you have a rather poor opinion of what doctors do and don't know, maybe with reason, I don't know, although of course I agree that it remains a developing field of knowledge. However ultimately I was just trying to help, but I can see that I'm not achieving that, so we shall agree to disagree and I shall trouble you no more. My sincere apologies that my well meaning original comments have not proved helpful on this occasion.
I must agree with doctor who. I do so for two reasons: The endocrine system is very, very complex and there are control measures everywhere. The system affects virtually every part of our body, from brain function to metabolism and our senses. Estrogen and testosterone are two very powerful hormones and both are needed the by the human body regardless of the sex.
I am on Estrogen and spironolactoene. Parts of my personality are different. I believe (but cannot prove) that part of the difference is estrogen, part is simply my being the me I was intended to be. However, a cis-male who had his testicles removed will behave differently than he did previously due to the lack of T. It's the way the human body works.
There are other changes that occur to a cis-males who have had testicles removed. The largest body of knowledge is from Chinese history. Osteoporosis seems to be what everyone fixates on today. I'd fixate on weight gain. I'd fixate on the number of individuals who developed a variety of psychological problems. I would also worry about the immune system over time. We are not looking at a 60 year old cis-female living another 25 years at significantly reduced activity levels. We are talking about young people who may live another 60 years. There is a big difference. Take a little bit of E and a little more T. It won't be enough to changes things significantly but it would significantly reduce the effects of loss to the T makers.
I am a scientist: I am the endocrine expert for a major US based multinational. We are learning more about the endocrine system every day. Your body functions at its best with both estrogen and testosterone. Testosterone can be converted to estrogen. However, I would suggest that you speak with an MD about the possibility of taking a
little of each and adding in a little more of the one of your choice. That might give you a good chance of the smallest personality change. But you really need some.
Quote from: Doctorwho? link=topic=151366.msg1265141#msg1265141 date=1382908934.
You do make huge assumptions about me - a person whom you can have no knowledge of. The accusation that I haven't developed my critical skills is a little presumptuous, not to say rude, when in fact I am in my 50's already a double postgraduate already holding multiple degrees both in sciences and humanities in both of which fields I have taught and contributed. Medicine is a career development for me not a starting point.
My apologies for misreading you as a twenty something student with little life experience. My opinions about doctors also come from knowing pre-med majors, that I wouldn't want to go to even for something simple, or maybe the fact that all doctors were once pre-med majors, and that I don't have a positive view on the intelligence of people in general. You might very well be one of the good ones, and might make a great doctor. Thanks for trying to help me.
I guess I should have figured that most here would have positive views of gender therapy and HRT. It's not for me, at least at this time. I actually was happy when I was younger and just being an androgynous male. I made the mistake of listening to society and taking on a fake macho male persona when it came time for me to get a real job, and it made me miserable and it really didn't work at all with women. While most prefer macho male types, they like fake macho males much, much, less than androgynous males. So what if I come off as a gay guy? That's so far from what I actually am it's funny. I think I can be happy with presenting as an androgynous male/occasional cross dresser. If it turns out I can't, I can always revisit this issue.
Please don't take it lightly, that medical experts advise against having very low T and E levels, and that danger is a separate issue from your 'presentation'.
Sooooo, moving the thread back to therapy...
Quote from: Kaylee on October 26, 2013, 03:30:05 AM
Bingo! My friends have always been the best and only support I'll ever need.
I'll need to see someone eventually to tick the required boxes for NHS funding of treatment, but I don't see how someone that doesn't know me could help with the few issues I have left since admitting to myself that I was trans.
They only have what you tell them to try and build a picture of your personality and who you are. People can quite easily be infallible narrators when it comes to themselves, whereas friends see you and how you are quite frequently get the widescreen version of you instead of the novelisation thats based on an earlier draft of the script...
(This is just me though, I'm quite lucky in the support network I have around me. Others that aren't so lucky may have more benefits from therapy, and that fits them fine as well)
Kaylee, I think you're absolutely correct. Friends have seen you in the real world for decades and they know you better than you know yourself. They are often the best source for honest advice, less emotionally distorted than family members, and lack the self interest of a paid therapist.
That said, the reason I'm looking for a therapist is because I want someone who
doesn't know me. I want someone who is independent and who can act as a "reality check" and see the big picture, someone who I'll essentially be using as a person to make sure I'm not making a stupid mistake. A safety net. Sometimes a little distance is a good thing, especially for such a life changing decision.
I'm sorry that there are so many stories here of damage caused by therapists. For people that are supposed to be helping people it's sad to read these stories of harm done instead.
I found a fantastic therapist on my first try. She is essential in my life right now to help me navigate these waters and to think clearly. Our relationship has gone from me being extremely wary, stiff, and closed off on my first visit to me being open and telling her pretty much anything. A bond of trust has formed.
If you can find a good one IMO they are worth their weight in gold.