I maybe I'm stupid about some things and I know I'm not all knowing but what difference does it matter to anyone other than my SO if I go through transition? With what I'm spending on clothes, surgeries, hormones and a psyc, I'm even stimulating the economy! I'm not hurting anyone, I'm not threatening anyone, I'm not telling anyone they should do this, I work every day, I pay a bunch of money in taxes, I help my neighbors, I help people at work, I volunteer and help those with less than I. All I'm trying to do is pursue happiness in my life and not smash my car into a bridge at really high speed because life is so very painful at times. What is it about my being transgender that causes normal people to become hatred filled idiots?
Only my opinion my sister, but maybe they are afraid of what lurks in their own mind. Maybe they have looked into the abyss, and it looked back. They might use hatred because they do not have any other way of dealing with it. I have found that those who are the most vocal also have the most to hide. Love ya! :)
Sound like you are having a very bad time. Care to share?
It's because people on a fundamental level are insecure creatures who are always seeking to validate themselves and their own feelings and their own self-identity. Because of the binary nature of our society, where you have to either be male or female, and this is taken to be self-evident from pretty much the instant that we're born when we are instantly segregated and expected to live up to a million stereotypes about what that gender means, trans people unfortunately challenge that strictly binary nature, and therefore what people's internally-held notions of gender identity are. Because everyone is taught from infancy that they have to be men because of their anatomy and their chromosomes and therefore like sports and therefore wear blue and therefore be masculine and therefore ___ and therefore ___. People spend their entire lives fitting themselves in with those niches and stereotypes, asserting how well they fit their own category because that's what society has taught them they have to be like in order to be an ideal "male" or "female" specimen. So when someone comes along that challenges that binary nature, challenges the things about themselves that they are trying to prove, there is naturally a backlash. By lashing out at us, they are trying to protect their own sense of self-identity, re-affirming their own gender identity and their own worth by shunning that which doesn't fit into theirs.
That's my thoughts on it, at least. It seems to me that it's the most insecure people, the people who are constantly trying to live up to some societal notion of perfection, that have the most problems with anyone who goes against their own identity and yet claims to be equally as human as them. By knocking you down, they're subconsciously trying to build themselves up and reaffirm their own perfection and own worth.
Anyway, I know that's not the point of this thread. The point was to vent, and to make a point about how really our existence shouldn't challenge anyone. And I agree. We really are no threat to anyone. What we're doing, in absolute terms, has no effect whatsoever on anyone else. But perhaps you've noticed, as I have, that certain anti-LGBT media seems to use fear-mongering of the slippery-slope variety to make people afraid that "they're coming after YOU, and YOUR family." And because people have this perfect image, they're scared of anything that might challenge it. It's not a predisposed notion. We learn it. It only exists because this binary cisnormative nature and this pressure to conform is pushed onto us from a young age. But it can be changed. If kids grew up knowing that trans people exist, and that it's perfectly okay to be that, thus giving people a category to comfortably fit us into that doesn't challenge their own cisnormative notion of perfection, we wouldn't be having these problems. It's tough. But we can change this. So keep going. And don't let people get to you. We can change this.
Quote from: LordKAT on October 27, 2013, 12:54:02 PM
Sound like you are having a very bad time. Care to share?
It is the pain of a thousand little things and a few big things. It is frustration about my past and fear for my future. Huge fears there. But even more than that, I also see individuals on this forum and their pain from MaidofOrleans and her actions yesterday to Kim 526 with her love for her children plus a few thousand others, including the LordKAT. It does get a little overwhelming and it does get frustrating. However, it is also a desire to understand what it is that drives the hate in the hope that it can be more effectively overcome.
So, the question is more of a rant than I originally intended because I do in fact hurt and does reflect my frustration but it is also serious. Carrie Liz's and Jessica's answer's in part go there and are a good start (thank you two). Yet, I don't think they are specific enough.
If I understand, I can better avoid what I can't win and I can better fight when I can win.
Thank you for caring enough to ask,
Jen
QuoteIf I understand,
Which is why I asked in part.
I think sometimes what people say hurt us way more than the ignorant person speaking even realizes. It is both our being over sensitive and them being ignorant and insensitive.
The only solution for some is patience, persistence and education. Sadly, I lack in all three.
Quote from: JLT1 on October 27, 2013, 12:30:20 PM
I maybe I'm stupid about some things and I know I'm not all knowing but what difference does it matter to anyone other than my SO if I go through transition? With what I'm spending on clothes, surgeries, hormones and a psyc, I'm even stimulating the economy! I'm not hurting anyone, I'm not threatening anyone, I'm not telling anyone they should do this, I work every day, I pay a bunch of money in taxes, I help my neighbors, I help people at work, I volunteer and help those with less than I. All I'm trying to do is pursue happiness in my life and not smash my car into a bridge at really high speed because life is so very painful at times. What is it about my being transgender that causes normal people to become hatred filled idiots?
You are threatening the bedrock upon which many 'straight' males base their whole perception of themselves. They hate US because we make them question themselves, if one wishes to avoid knowing oneself one avoids reasons to look within........
Quote from: JLT1 on October 27, 2013, 01:28:29 PM
However, it is also a desire to understand what it is that drives the hate in the hope that it can be more effectively overcome.
I would venture that a large percentage of people don't even understand what, or why they hate. They do so because everyone else seems to do so. To fit in. To stand up among a group of people they want to be accepted by and say: "Yeah, I think like you do. Don't you like me now?"
Often it never occurs to folks to say "Hang on a minute...
why do you think like you do? And for that matter, why do
I think like I do?"
That, sadly, isn't limited to transgendered issues, but the world at large.
I think a lot of it is fear that we could enter a difficult or painful situation ourselves. When we hear about someone "screwed up" which is how transgender people are usually portrayed, we want to know everything. How did they get like this? Could that happen to me? No, no, they experienced (insert: abuse, bad experience, disease...), so it couldn't happen to me! Or to my children! We're normal!
I think that's also the reason why people are all over the "born this way" narrative, where kids know they're trans since they're like 3 years old. Because they think "well if my kid was trans, they'd be insisting as soon as they could speak", "if I was trans, I'd know by now. So no, we're safe."
That's not just with trans people - when people read a story about a woman getting raped, they think "what was she wearing? Where was she? Was she drinking?" So they, too, can assuage their fears that they may be the victim of a violent crime. Or if someone is poor or homeless. Or someone who caught a disease. Being trans isn't exactly a disease (more of a medical condition), but you know what I mean - difficult or challenging circumstances.
To answer your original question, no, it shouldn't matter. To anyone, except you and your SO, if you are trans. That's just my theory on why it does to many people.
People generally fear what they don't understand and too often hate what they fear. It's *le sigh* the American way.
Unfortunately most will not even attempt to understand trans people and we end up vilified. Far too many willfully ignorant people in this country for my taste...
I tend to feel sorry for myself on the hate who is put on being transgender.
but then I also feel sorry for those who want to put there energy in hating other people who is harmless for them, who maybe could even give them good friendship or advice. some of the most interesting people I meet or talked to have been people who was very diffrent from myself.
but well in general its best to use the energy on loving those who love you rather than those who hate you. its much better use.
I was thinking that very question while cutting the grass today.
In the Philadelphia gayborhood I feel a sense of community like no other place I have been. I would love to move there, perhaps some day.
A co-worker and I were discussing in private the fact that in PA you can be fired if you announce you are LGBTI, except for Philadelphia and I believe Pittsburg, while working for a private employer. I showed her an article stating such and the Councilman Kenny sponsored a law to provide protections ( employment, bathroom and HRT) which passed May 13. She had no idea. Then commented at her last job a he became a she. I said Philadelphia wants to be the most LGBTI friendly place in the country, she said why would they want to do that? I gave her the standard statistics concerning trans* then that I see a therapist. Oh she said, then I told her I started HRT May 28. She was speechless and needed time to process. We will have more conversations in the future.
I think one person at a time we can educate but there is risk and only some can be open minded enough to accept the information.
Why should it matter to others, other than your SO? My gender is basic to me and I should not have to hide from bigots and demeaning stairs or comments. My family was touring Drexel University Sunday. We were crossing the street in front of the Haggerty Library. I remembered crossing the same street 30 years ago and several students shouting ->-bleeped-<-ot and homo at me. Oh the fond memories of college.
People often hate what they can't understand or don't relate to. Some people can't accept differences in this world and it creates negative prejudices against the perceived outsiders. That's one of the reasons why there is racism, xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia, hatred of other religions, hatred of different cultures, political isolation, extreme nationalism, distrust of different social classes, etc... There is no one reason behind all of these things, but distrust and fear of the outsider is one of the motivating factors behind hate of all kind. Most transphobic people don't understand us and see us as different which can make them uncomfortable. Again, there are different factors behind transphobia, but I think this is the main issue for many.
It shouldn't matter to anyone outside of your immediate family, but as LtL said people are afraid of that which they do not understand. And unless they live it how can they understand? Case in point for me is I am physically disabled, I know that there are people in this world who feel incomplete because they are not disabled. They want to have perfectly functioning limbs amputated so that they can feel whole. (See Body Integrity Identity Disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder)) In a way I can kinda get it because of dealing with being transgender and not feeling right in my own body. Yet the thought of someone actually doing something so drastic as to have a limb cut off scares the hell out of me.
People hate us because they hate anyone does isnt a nonconformists to the standards their abide by, which they believe is an unbreakable human law. Its a good point that the people closets to you should matter and no one else. Why should a stranger enforce who you are, if they dont know anything about you other than assumptions.
Transgender is just something on a list of things that are a nuisance in my case.
Transgender.
Caucasian. Yes it seems being Caucasian annoys people. I didn't make the history eh.
NOT religious. Yes it is possible to be no religion and still not atheist. I am not saying there is no god for a reason. There is no proof there is, so why should a rational person think there is? That doesn't make me an atheist it makes me rational.
Those three details, they have been a pain for large swaths of my life in some cases.
Being TG is merely the most recent.
People seem threatened by my being TG and my expecting fair treatment. The insist on saying I can't get a break because of the past behaviour of whites. And the religious, well they insist the world has to be their way and to deny them this, is of course considered intolerant of me.
Some days, I just wish I could wake up next to my wife, as her wife, both of us called Mrs, and be in a word that really could comprehend the point of 'equality'. I have a right to my world as much as they to theirs.
I'm agnostic. I believe that there might be a god or gods but I don't follow a specific religion, I believe that's the position Lesley was also taking. (Though I could be wrong.)
Anyway, I don't have much to add to intelligent responses already here, my brain isn't as great as these very smart people. I am firmly in the camp that says the fact that you are transgender is between you and your SO and no one else should be able to say a thing, but I am sure that's nothing you don't already know...
Just wanted to chime in with some love and support on top of all this wonderous love and support. Let the insecure and unintelligent prattle on about how the world should fit into their tiny ideas. They are small minded and as a consequence lead small lives. I pity them. You are better than that, smarter than. So shine on you crazy diamond. And you are never alone. Hope tomorrow brings better and happier things, beautiful. :icon_flower:
love,
-maggie
It doesn't matter, don't let them get to you.
No matter what you do that is different, people are going to hate you for it.
People will hate you more if you are non-conforming in any way, not just gender. If you are, you have to develop a bit of a thick skin, not unlike a celebrity. How many negative articles are there on say, Brittney Spears or Tom Cruise? They just find a way to ignore it and live their lives the way they want to.
We are putting ourselves in the spotlight, but unlike actual celebrities, we don't have all the fans that support us, but really we do have to act like stars. A lot of stars have problems handling the constant criticism too, but in the end the successful ones brush it off.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on October 27, 2013, 10:21:04 PM
Caucasian. Yes it seems being Caucasian annoys people.
The insist on saying I can't get a break because of the past behaviour of whites.
Note: Caucasian does mean white. Caucasian is a particular facial structure, anthropologically speaking.
People in India are Caucasian and have brown skin pigmentation.
Search google images for "India people", and you can see that India people have the same facial structure as European whites. :)
I am going to play devil's advocate on this topic. Since I have only recently come to accept my gender identity issues, I can sympathize with all of the feelings expressed on this thread. I have known that I was born physically the wrong gender my whole life, and have spend the majority of my life wishing those feelings would go away.
Despite my transgender nature, I have have created a very stable life for myself and my family based on my biological sex. I have made a difficult choice NOT to transition, because I feel that my gender does matter to a lot of people besides my wife.
- It matters to my son. My son is 4 years old and deserves to have a father figure in his life. Yes I am aware that there are very happy, well adjusted, intelligent children who are raised by two loving parents of the same gender. Had I transitioned before he was born, he would not have been born. When he was born I accepted the role of father and I cannot carry out that role if I express a female gender to him.
-It matters to my employer and the employees of that company. I play a rather key role in a small company (of which I am well compensated for). This small company sells high tech equipment to several well know Asian companies. Despite what you may have heard, the Asian business world is extremely misogynistic. I am expected to interact with these companies on a professional level, and if I were to present as anything besides my biological gender, it could impact our small company's relationship with our customers. If this were to happen, my company would be put in an extremely difficult position. They could terminate my employment, which they would be in their right to do. They would not be firing me because they hate me or are have any prejudice against me whatsoever, they would be firing me because I am a financial liability to the company, and I would totally support their decision to do so. Or they could keep me employed (rather than loosing a fairly valuable human resource), and risk loosing a significant amount of business from our customers who will probably not be so open minded and accepting as my current American employers. In which case several other people might loose their jobs because of the financial loss incurred by my choice to transition. I cannot and will not put my employer (who is also a pretty good friend) and coworkers (who are also pretty good friends) in this situation.
The thing is, I have built a rather comfortable life for myself and my family (I'm pretty sure I could completely finance a full transition, HRT, FFS and SRS for myself if I wanted). However as the sole financial provider for that family, that comfort rests entirely on my shoulders. If I shrug, that life comes tumbling down, and I think a lot of people could get hurt by the fallout from that.
If I was single, 20 years younger, and just starting my career and had the resources I have now, I would totally transition. But that is not how it is. I might not get to choose the person that I am, but I definitely get to choose the life I live (even if it's not the one that makes me happy).
I don't expect anyone to make the same choice I have. You have your own life and your own decisions to make. I just want to express what I feel is a valid counterpoint to all of the equally valid opinions expressed in this thread thus far.
All the best.
J.
Quote from: SciNerdGirl on October 27, 2013, 11:50:02 PM
I don't expect anyone to make the same choice I have.
Think about your future. Think about looking at a sixty-five+ year old man face, and being disconnected from your inner self. You will be saying, "Who am I? Who is this old man in the mirror? Who could I have been?" You will have to accept that.
Janet,
I agree that it is the business of your children, you have me there. Beyond the immediate family, anyone else's judgement is irrelevant. In your case at work, if you decided to leave, gave them plenty of notice and helped get your replace on his feet before you left, they don't have the right to judge you for why you left. If you decided to transition and gave them plenty of notice, I'm sure an equitable solution can be reached. Either way, they don't have the right to why you did these things.
Does what you do have impact? Sure, we all have jobs that would be affected by our decisions day to day. I don't think that's the issue.
You've reached a balance. Not everyone is lucky enough to have found that. Personally, I'm not sure I could have made it five more years without putting a gun to my head. We do what must to survive, find happiness, flourish. It really is only our business and the business of our loved ones. There is no need to be made to feel like less of a person for it.
-maggie
Quote from: genderhell on October 27, 2013, 11:20:58 PM
Note: Caucasian does mean white. Caucasian is a particular facial structure, anthropologically speaking.
People in India are Caucasian and have brown skin pigmentation.
Search google images for "India people", and you can see that India people have the same facial structure as European whites. :)
A. you are correct, and B. sadly know one ever seems to be much interested in history. It is called Caucasian based on point of origin. But society has grown to expect 'Caucasian' is a weird way of saying white.
Why are we talking about race?
Quote from: <3 on October 28, 2013, 10:52:26 AM
Why are we talking about race?
Because I mentioned it.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on October 28, 2013, 11:12:17 AM
Because I mentioned it.
But it has nothing to do with the OP, along with religion.
Quote from: Magdalena on October 28, 2013, 07:15:22 AM
In your case at work, if you decided to leave, gave them plenty of notice and helped get your replace on his feet before you left, they don't have the right to judge you for why you left. If you decided to transition and gave them plenty of notice, I'm sure an equitable solution can be reached.
Hi Maggie,
It's not really an issue about judgement of my gender on my company's part. I have an extremely specialized skill set (maybe 10-12 people in the world could match, and I know them all). They might judge me, and not be comfortable around me, but I'm certain they would not fire me because of any discomfort with regards to the transition because I would be both expensive and difficult to replace. However if it cost them customers (and therefore sales dollars) then the libertarian in me would not fault them for nevertheless trying to find a replacement.
Quote from: Magdalena on October 28, 2013, 07:15:22 AM
You've reached a balance. Not everyone is lucky enough to have found that. Personally, I'm not sure I could have made it five more years without putting a gun to my head. We do what must to survive, find happiness, flourish. It really is only our business and the business of our loved ones. There is no need to be made to feel like less of a person for it.
I can totally sympathize with that. I have had fantasies about terminating my existence in this world for most of my adult life. Unfortunately my sense of responsibility basically has done a pretty good job of keeping those thoughts in the relm of fantasy, mostly because the wreckage I would leave if I did end my life would be much worse than the wreckage that would be left If I chose to transition.
A common topic on here is that choosing to transition is a difficult choice, I'm merely point out that in some cases choosing not to transition is also a difficult choice. But my current understanding is that the meaning of life is that we have choices. Our ability to choose the life we live is the most important thing that any of us has.
All the best,
J
Okay, let's try and stay on topic instead of generalising and bashing certain groups of people.
Thanks.
~Seph.
Quote from: <3 on October 28, 2013, 11:21:14 AM
But it has nothing to do with the OP, along with religion.
Has everything to do with it, although it appears religion is off limits. Ok to crap on anything, just so long as not religion. Nice to know that some things are off limits, but others not.
The point was, why does it matter to anyone other than my SO if I am TG. The thing is, why does it matter to anyone other than my SO whether I am TG or Martian, or a semi clever dolphin eh. Is that extreme? well yes, and that is the point. Society seems to think it is ok to say slanderous and biased and outright falsehoods about those of us that are TG (as well as the homosexual community), but hands off mentioning them eh.
I don't play by the rules though. Maybe not here, but I can assure you, in MY spaces, I call a spade a spade, and I bite back. I chew and I spit out too.
I don't generalize, I am ok with disliking entire groups. Why not, they are ok hating ALL of us without ever even knowing any of us.
Life is not about fair. I acknowledge that. I don't make a habit of being kind to those advocating I be put to death.
Entire groups don't hate us, Lesley.
There are people within every section of society who have feelings of hatred. Not just for us, but for other things, too. That's a reflection on the people themselves, not the section of society they belong to.
You can find people from the same sections who support, advocate and are even members of this community. Generalisations aren't helpful, and they aren't accurate, either.
I'll only say this once more: Can we please try and avoid the generalisation and bashing of certain parts of society? There's enough of that goes on from people with regard to our own community without the need for us to resort to the same thing.
Thanks.
Back to the OP (since I just discovered this thread)...
I really believe the problems that transgendered people have in integrating with society is down to societal issues, and that the broader context has to be examined in order to reach the particular. I think it's down to evolution. Hear me out... :)
Societies evolve over time. Survival of the fittest, so to speak. If your societal structure manages to unite more people than another, eventually your culture will dominate the surrounding cultures, either by conquest or by subversion. To do this, a common religion, creed, language, and/or identity is required. The culture, to survive, must have some fundamental level of cohesion. On a macro scale, this can be managed through laws and policies from a government or church body, on a micro scale this is managed by strict adherents in the populace.
So, a powerful, successful, cohesive culture *must* encourage conformity on some level or another. The way this is done is through the use of people's social desire to fit in, to belong (carrot) and a fear of being excluded (stick). The beliefs of people who are fully indoctrinated in such a culture and who are naturally are predisposed to desire conformity are rewarded by their culture for being upstanding adherents.
However, to thrive, a culture must also change with the times in order to survive environmental (geo-political now) changes. Thus, a certain degree of non-conformity *must* exists, and this role is filled by people who think in a more independent fashion... however, this is general. There are certain unifying cultural ideas that are preserved for the most part even in those people. And, people being what they are, there is a sort of bell-curve in how they respond to world-challenging ideas. On one end, with few adherents, is complete anarchy, where everyone is free to do anything they wish regardless of the consequences. On the other is complete conservatives who want nothing to change ever; new ideas, to them, are evil, even if it's just a new color of wax for their cars. Everyone else is scattered along the curve, with most in the middle.
The trouble, in my opinion, comes from the fact that gender roles are enshrined in our society (I blame the patriarchy, but this isn't about feminism, so I'll leave it there). They have historically been imposed on us since birth. There is a small percentage of the population who doesn't fit their assigned gender, but to *this* culture that is nearly unthinkable. To another culture, such as the Navajo, it's no big deal, accepted and dealt with. Unfortunately the Western European culture has nearly completely overwhelmed that of the native tribes... so this tenet, that men are men and do manly things and women are women and do womanly things, is enshrined as a pillar of society. Without knowing why, women and men, girls and boys, believe that these roles are correct. To avoid standing out, to gain acceptance, they will conform. To "help" others integrate, they will bully, tease, hurt, bribe, or any other tactic they think might work to get *them* to conform too.
The only way to change that (and it is changing, at least in the US) is to educate people... let them see that trans people aren't a threat to their country and their way of life. To come out in numbers and show ourselves to be the men and women and others that we are.
It's a slow battle. It has been said it takes three generations to create lasting change. We're almost there for lesbian and gay rights, and to some degree our wagon is hitched to theirs. There is promise; these are exciting times.
Much love,
Robin
Wow,
Thank you all for your thoughtful posts. I would agree that it is a human nature problem, that there is a societal problem in the western world, that people do not understand and a there is a potential problem for many due to their interpretation of their religion. I think that education is the answer but it is a rather formidable task to educate an entire society. However, I believe that is what we must do.
SciNerdGirl: The decision you have made is courageous and shows a depth of love that is remarkable. I'm in a slightly different situation. I'm 51 years old. My step children are out of college and raising the grandchildren. All are doing well. My sisters, who have had a difficult time due to our rather traumatic upbringing, have finally worked though the difficulties we all shared. I have fulfilled my promise to my Grandmother and Mother. I have waited and fulfilled my responsibilities to my family and really, society. Hey, this is my time. It is also my wife's time. However, I do not want to turn around at 65 or 75 and never have lived as me.
So, why are many people accepting while at the same time, so many more find me absolutely repugnant?
I just find that dichotomy to be very strange and while I agree with so many posts, it is sad and it is alien to my way of thinking.
Hugs to all,
Jen
Quote from: Sephirah on October 28, 2013, 01:10:07 PM
Entire groups don't hate us, Lesley.
There are people within every section of society who have feelings of hatred. Not just for us, but for other things, too. That's a reflection on the people themselves, not the section of society they belong to.
You can find people from the same sections who support, advocate and are even members of this community. Generalisations aren't helpful, and they aren't accurate, either.
I'll only say this once more: Can we please try and avoid the generalisation and bashing of certain parts of society? There's enough of that goes on from people with regard to our own community without the need for us to resort to the same thing.
Thanks.
I do not wish to nit pick, but, when I can mention one group, and it is not called hate, and then another group, and equally, and it is called hate, that is not 'equality' it is called prejudice. I am not prejudiced when I call out a group for their actions, and in this case, I am not selecting specific sub groupings, I am calling out the category.
It is a well established FACT, that it is ok to bash some groups, and yet not others, and all due to personal bias of the persons in control of what gets 'dealt with'.
I don't like hate, but, I am also no doormat.
The expression an eye for an eye, it's literal eh.
The saying, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It means, don't cry foul if you spite me, when I spite you in kind.
Those words of wisdom, they are not quotes from a science book.
I give as good as I get.
Do me a kind act, I will return it and likely add something.
Do me a disservice, and I won't feel guilt over responding in kind, and doing more so.
I don't support graduated response. I'd rather eliminate things from my life, that would gladly eliminate me.
The question, what should it matter to anyone other than my SO if I am TG, it basically illustrates the problem we have with society. Because clearly, society DOES have a problem with TG people, and really, the only person that has a right to complain or have anything to say, is our SOs who might not really like that fact that a spouse going and getting new parts, might make it so their spouse no longer gets to have fun with the parts they might normally prefer to play with.
My being female, and married to a female, is NOT going to adversely impact my neighbour's life, or the quality of play time they might enjoy with THEIR own spouse. It's not like they will be not getting quality play time from me eh :)
And it is the specific REASONS why all of the problem with this being made forcibly more than just my spouse's problem, that makes it more than just my spouse's problem, and it is the specific source of the motivation for that being the case, that I have issues with. In a world where no one supported those 'sources', those 'sources' would not be a factor, and would thus, cease to be a burden.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on October 29, 2013, 09:15:09 AM
I do not wish to nit pick, but, when I can mention one group, and it is not called hate, and then another group, and equally, and it is called hate, that is not 'equality' it is called prejudice. I am not prejudiced when I call out a group for their actions, and in this case, I am not selecting specific sub groupings, I am calling out the category.
It is a well established FACT, that it is ok to bash some groups, and yet not others, and all due to personal bias of the persons in control of what gets 'dealt with'.
I don't like hate, but, I am also no doormat.
The expression an eye for an eye, it's literal eh.
The saying, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It means, don't cry foul if you spite me, when I spite you in kind.
Those words of wisdom, they are not quotes from a science book.
I give as good as I get.
Do me a kind act, I will return it and likely add something.
Do me a disservice, and I won't feel guilt over responding in kind, and doing more so.
I don't support graduated response. I'd rather eliminate things from my life, that would gladly eliminate me.
The question, what should it matter to anyone other than my SO if I am TG, it basically illustrates the problem we have with society. Because clearly, society DOES have a problem with TG people, and really, the only person that has a right to complain or have anything to say, is our SOs who might not really like that fact that a spouse going and getting new parts, might make it so their spouse no longer gets to have fun with the parts they might normally prefer to play with.
My being female, and married to a female, is NOT going to adversely impact my neighbour's life, or the quality of play time they might enjoy with THEIR own spouse. It's not like they will be not getting quality play time from me eh :)
And it is the specific REASONS why all of the problem with this being made forcibly more than just my spouse's problem, that makes it more than just my spouse's problem, and it is the specific source of the motivation for that being the case, that I have issues with. In a world where no one supported those 'sources', those 'sources' would not be a factor, and would thus, cease to be a burden.
The point me and Sephirah are trying to make is that you are hating on whole groups of people and that is making you no better than the people that hate all TG people. Do you really want to be on their level?
I would say one of three basic reasons:
1) Religious bullsh"t. As if anything could be done that God disapproves of. To me, if something exists in the world it is because it was ordained by God/Goddess, all-that-is. If it was not approved by God, it would be impossible to do. That is where we get our limitations, things like laws of physics and such.
2) Just being different. It is human nature to like others like themselves and dislike people who are different from themselves. This has been show with a study of babies.
3) People with related suppressed personal issues. These are the potential crazies.
Over time, there will be more and more acceptance with each generation. It is still relatively new to our culture. The ones that help educate society the most are the ones that don't pass all that well.
"The point me and Sephirah are trying to make is that you are hating on whole groups of people and that is making you no better than the people that hate all TG people. Do you really want to be on their level?"
There's no way to answer that, without getting someone in a snit over the examples I'd need to offer (because without evidence, it is just someone bad mouthing on heresy).
I'm NOT on their level though. That's an oft made comment made by people that truly believe it I suppose. I don't.
Religion is responsible for it's actions, collectively and as a whole. I don't have a problem being brutally all inclusive. The reason, because it is being done to me. No they are not saying because so and so a TG raped a person in a bathroom, they need to prevent people from us. Nope, they don't even have the examples, but they are willing to condemn all of us all the same, it IS all of us, and I won't tolerate that.
I realize, some of the TG community is religious. Good luck with that.
I'm a scientist, I bear the shame of backing science, even though science has given us nuclear weapons, biological weapons, chemical weapons, machines of war, ill advised genetically modified foods, and technologies we likely should have taken a pass on.
THAT is why I am not interested in hearing the complaints that not all religious people are bad. I don't have time to keep track of all of you to make sure I know which is which.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on October 30, 2013, 02:47:29 PM
"The point me and Sephirah are trying to make is that you are hating on whole groups of people and that is making you no better than the people that hate all TG people. Do you really want to be on their level?"
There's no way to answer that, without getting someone in a snit over the examples I'd need to offer (because without evidence, it is just someone bad mouthing on heresy).
I'm NOT on their level though. That's an oft made comment made by people that truly believe it I suppose. I don't.
Religion is responsible for it's actions, collectively and as a whole. I don't have a problem being brutally all inclusive. The reason, because it is being done to me. No they are not saying because so and so a TG raped a person in a bathroom, they need to prevent people from us. Nope, they don't even have the examples, but they are willing to condemn all of us all the same, it IS all of us, and I won't tolerate that.
I realize, some of the TG community is religious. Good luck with that.
I'm a scientist, I bear the shame of backing science, even though science has given us nuclear weapons, biological weapons, chemical weapons, machines of war, ill advised genetically modified foods, and technologies we likely should have taken a pass on.
THAT is why I am not interested in hearing the complaints that not all religious people are bad. I don't have time to keep track of all of you to make sure I know which is which.
Perhaps then the best thing to do is to just keep your thoughts to yourself. This is a support site, not a bashing site, maybe you should treat it that way because nobody here is interested in hearing your complaints about all religious people.
I know i could really careless about someone else lumping me with every other hating religious person.My own actions speak for me and if thats not enough then whatever makes them happy i say,as long as they stay away from me.Though i havent went through the whole thread,i would like to know how this became the topic change? and if someone elses negative views are valid when it comes to degrading another? i mean for example,i feel everyone is a liar,fake and everything else but those are personal feelings and i treat everyone as the possible difference in the world.And unless its on a personal level with myself,i tend to keep those TO myself.Some people feel being *honestly cruel* is the same as being *bluntly honest* and i hate to say,they are nothing alike-in any form.
Quote from: JLT1 on October 27, 2013, 12:30:20 PM
I maybe I'm stupid about some things and I know I'm not all knowing but what difference does it matter to anyone other than my SO if I go through transition? . What is it about my being transgender that causes normal people to become hatred filled idiots?
It isn't anyone else's business if you go through transition. It isn't your parents problem, not your ex-wife, not your ex-husband, not your children.
It isn't anybodies, because it's yours...
It's your life, not theirs...
As as for them being "normal". What's normal?
Were all "normal" until we stop breathing, and then we are dead.
That's not normal because we are dead.
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 30, 2013, 04:36:10 PM
As as for them being "normal". What's normal?
Were all "normal"
Me and my best friend (call him my brother) used to say *Being normal is boring! its so much more fun to be different and NOT normal* though you were right about the rest,I think if people got the understanding of *not fitting in* and just being their self,i think alot of weight would be lifted off.
QuoteI realize, some of the TG community is religious. Good luck with that. I'm a scientist,...
The more I learn about science, the more spiritual I become (I've never been religious)... even evolution could have a creator.
Quote from: amZo on October 30, 2013, 05:40:31 PM
The more I learn about science, the more spiritual I become (I've never been religious)... even evolution could have a creator.
51 years of being exposed to religion has made me incapable of being nice to it. And vague conceptual notional creators is not what the Bible was referring to is part of the problem :)
Quote from: <3 on October 30, 2013, 03:46:17 PM
Perhaps then the best thing to do is to just keep your thoughts to yourself. This is a support site, not a bashing site, maybe you should treat it that way because nobody here is interested in hearing your complaints about all religious people.
It might interest you, or then again, you might not give a damn, your choice of course, but I HAVE been privately informed, that they value my comments, INCLUDING the religious ones.
Yes it is a support site. It's not a church, not a temple, not a mosque, not a synagogue or even a pile of rocks in the wilderness. It's a support site focused on TG issues. Hmm I'm TG, the OP is TG, and I think most of us here are TG. And it is a support site not surprisingly for TG persons.
It's not a support site for Religion. Nor is it a science classroom. Which is why I haven't been teaching anyone any science.
I'm not asking you to support religion. I'm asking you to support all of Susan's members, even the religious ones, and I believe that includes not bashing the groups that they belong to. Guess what, this is a TG support website, not a lesbian support website, does that give me the right to bash lesbians as a whole group just because I have been negatively affected by the ones that I have met?
Hi,
I would like to thank everyone for their responces. I now understand and it actually makes me sad. I do not think the way that most people do. However, I will transition and I will face the problems as they come. I will also help others as I can.
This topic has gotten off cource in an argument about religious bigotry. Please take that to the religion discussion area.
Hugs to all.
Jen
Moderator, would you lock this discussion down before things get out of contol?
I have to apologize for being a part of that. From now on I will use the report to moderator link anytime I see religion being discussed instead of arguing. I am sincerely sorry.
I don't think you were wrong. No need to apologize.
Thank you
Jen