In other trans spaces, I've noticed that most transsexual folks have one of two contrasting opinions on what defines one's gender. The two camps are roughly:
1) Gender as determined by self - a person's gender is whatever they say their gender is, and transition is a means of alleviating the dysphoria that stems from the discordance of one's gender and one's body.
2) Gender as determined by society - a person's gender is based on which sex they are read as most consistently in day-to-day life; transition exists to alleviate sex dysphoria, and relates to gender only to the extent that society mandates it should.
Obviously there are other opinions on gender beyond these two, but these are the most common ones I've encountered.
What do you lot think?
Great question Cassandra.
I think gender is very complicated. It's a combination of:
* Body Sex
* Internal gender signals from the brain
* How people treat you
* How you interact with people
* How you see yourself
* How you present
I actually believe that transition DOES change my gender. (I know, this is likely to prompt a midnight call from the Trans police).
I don't think it's as simple as having a structure in my brain that wants me to be a woman so I'm a woman.
This is one of those interesting things I can never quite answer. We call a spoon a spoon, because society has come up with the name spoon for it. Male and female however is such a shifting fluid concept. It could attach to body, genitalia, identity, self identity, presentation, or a mixture of the above.
Quote from: suzifrommd on November 19, 2013, 12:53:03 PM
I actually believe that transition DOES change my gender. (I know, this is likely to prompt a midnight call from the Trans police).
I don't think it's as simple as having a structure in my brain that wants me to be a woman so I'm a woman.
That kinda resonates with me too. I struggled with whether I was right, but at the start if my transition, I didn't think I woke up one morning and decided to be female and therefore was female, it's been more of a process. My gender
identity definitely changed quickly, but my gender itself? Not sure. I always preferred the term gender identity because that referred to what I thought. Gender seems like something more scientific and society driven.
Gender is actually defined as being a combination of several different concepts so I've never really understood why people single out and favor one concept over another. Here's my take on it:
Gender is mainly a mental, physical and social concept. To put it loosely: Mentally, gender helps define a person's identity. Physically, gender determines appearance. And socially, gender determines how others interact with you.
When one or more of those concepts clash with another, it causes dysphoria and leads people to seek alleviation from that dysphoria.
For example, many people who are transgender describe their bodies as not matching the gender they are in their minds. This means that the person's mental concept of gender and how it determines their identity is clashing with their physical gender. A person feeling dysphoria from this would probably want to transition so that their mental gender can match their physical gender. Then comes the social concept of gender. If a person's gender roles in society don't match their mental or physical concept of gender, it also causes dysphoria because the person isn't being treated as the correct gender by others. So not only do people transition physically they also transition socially into new gender roles and (as bad as it sounds) stereotypes, that's what passing is all about.
You can't really define gender as being just mental, just physical or just societal.
A agree with all three "It's complicated" posts above. For me to realize I needed to transition took several aspects.
The first was to reflect on my life and dig up memories I had buried: Finding my mother's lace and rose wedding hat in the attic, trying it on, imagining being a bride. Wanting to buy a doll when I was small, only to have my father get inexplicably prickly and angry about the idea. Thinking I had to be a good *boy* in order to have attention and love (which never really seemed to work). Sleepless nights crying during puberty because I couldn't have boobs or hips or a vagina. Cutting myself off from everything feminine because I was afraid that my secret would be out and I would disappoint my family. Desiring so much to be a part of girls' conversations, hating to have to put on a front and hide emotions to "fit in" (however badly) with the boys. Being relieved when I found someone I thought was a good match to marry; at last I could prove that I was a "male". Oh, and having to bury all these experiences and not think about them to avoid drowning in depression about it all.
A number of those things were socially derived. In a less gender-binary society, I may have been able to flourish to a degree. At least to a higher degree than I managed otherwise...
But then there are other things, purely physical, like the way I still on some level expect to encounter breasts when I run my hands up my body, or the disappointment I have always felt when I look down and see nothing but flat from my shoulders to my toes... the hatred and distaste I have for all the hair that has sprung up on my body.
And finally, the mental things, feeling like I have to hide my inner femininity. I'm old enough now to realize how senseless that was, and how harmful. Guilt can destroy a soul, given a chance.
So for me, the decision was made when I realized that on three separate levels I *needed* to. The thought that I could know all of this and not take action was intolerable. So now I'm transitioning, spending as much time as I can getting in touch with the real me and discarding bits and pieces of my male costume... it kept snagging on things and tripping me up anyway. :)
*hug* Neat topic... thank you.
I disagree with you ladies. The first definition is accurate for me. The 'physical gender' in earlier posts is more simply genitals, not gender. Related but not the same. I don't believe gender changes. We are who we are. What society says does not make me what I am, only affects how I act and feel. I have never been female and have not 'become' a man. I have always been a man.
Societal expectations change, but that does not change who I am nor can it. My identity is a solid unmoveable rock. People's perceptions of me are not. Their perceptions do NOT define me. My genitals do NOT define me. I am who I have always been, surgery or hormones or society does not matter.
Quote from: LordKAT on November 19, 2013, 03:14:59 PM
I disagree with you ladies. The first definition is accurate for me. The 'physical gender' in earlier posts is more simply genitals, not gender. Related but not the same. I don't believe gender changes. We are who we are. What society says does not make me what I am, only affects how I act and feel. I have never been female and have not 'become' a man. I have always been a man.
Societal expectations change, but that does not change who I am nor can it. My identity is a solid unmoveable rock. People's perceptions of me are not. Their perceptions do NOT define me. My genitals do NOT define me. I am who I have always been, surgery or hormones or society does not matter.
I agree. Gender expression can change, but gender itself, I believe, is internal.
Quote from: LordKAT on November 19, 2013, 03:14:59 PM
...
Societal expectations change, but that does not change who I am nor can it. My identity is a solid unmoveable rock. People's perceptions of me are not. Their perceptions do NOT define me. My genitals do NOT define me. I am who I have always been, surgery or hormones or society does not matter.
I agree with that statement. My comments were about the need to *transition*, to alter one's gender as perceived by the world at large. The reason I needed to transition was that my sense of *self* is harmed by trying to represent a false gender to society, no matter what my biology says.
How I came to understand that gender, though, is a complex mix of self and socially imposed values.
Quote from: Robin Mack on November 19, 2013, 03:40:41 PM
I agree with that statement. My comments were about the need to *transition*, to alter one's gender as perceived by the world at large. The reason I needed to transition was that my sense of *self* is harmed by trying to represent a false gender to society, no matter what my biology says.
How I came to understand that gender, though, is a complex mix of self and socially imposed values.
I wouldn't call that changing gender, just changing society's perceptions, sometimes known as a social transition, not a gender transition.
Quote from: LordKAT on November 19, 2013, 03:43:48 PM
I wouldn't call that changing gender, just changing society's perceptions, sometimes known as a social transition, not a gender transition.
Hence why I pointed out that people transition genders socially too, not just physically. It might be considered a social transition but it's directly affected by gender so it's a gender transition as well, just a different form of it.
I agree that society and physicality don't determine a person's gender. I believe the mental concept of gender identity, which is exactly what you mentioned, is what determines one's gender. But the social and physical constructs
do determine what gender others view you as regardless of what your gender identity is.
If gender was only a mental concept not affected by society or physicality people wouldn't feel dysphoria when their mental concept didn't match up with the others.
And I'm a guy, by the way. :P
Quote from: Orange Creamsicle on November 19, 2013, 03:19:43 PM
I agree. Gender expression can change, but gender itself, I believe, is internal.
I'm with The OC and others... I have
always been female. I realize my gender (all gender) is somewhat fluid as it is hormonally based, and that it will change somewhat (possibly significantly) on HRT... but my gender is made by my brain.
Society is responsible for gender role imposition. As much as my parents like to say they don't believe in gender roles (and brought us up that way), I know I still had lots of cars I never much played with... society imposes gender onto our sex, not our actual gender... which is why we, as transgender, have the problems we do.
Quote from: Contravene on November 19, 2013, 04:01:10 PM
Hence why I pointed out that people transition genders socially too, not just physically. It might be considered a social transition but it's directly affected by gender so it's a gender transition as well, just a different form of it.
Society's perceptions have nothing to do with gender. My gender does NOT change. Gender and society's perceptions of gender are not the same thing. My ability to survive depends on blood flow, so does breathing. Survival is not Blood flow nor breathing even though both affect survival.
I agree that society and physicality don't determine a person's gender. I believe the mental concept of gender identity, which is exactly what you mentioned, is what determines one's gender. But the social and physical constructs do determine what gender others view you as regardless of what your gender identity is.
Again gender is not society's perceptions.
If gender was only a mental concept not affected by society or physicality people wouldn't feel dysphoria when their mental concept didn't match up with the others.
Dysphoria affected me most because my body doesn't match my body map or internal view. The bit of society's perceptions played a far lesser impact on me. This statement is not true. Before ever meeting other people, My gender is what it is and my dysphoria just as real. People's mental concepts are not a big part of the problem.
I'm okay with people having different definitions of gender. We should try not to make generalizations or define gender for other people though. In the spirit of Susan's, that is.
LordKAT, I don't think you're understanding all the points I'm making. ::) No one's saying that gender is determined by society or people's perceptions of you nor are they saying that gender is determined by physicality.
Quote from: Contravene on November 19, 2013, 04:48:04 PM
LordKAT, I don't think you're understanding all the points I'm making. ::) No one's saying that gender is determined by society or people's perceptions of you nor are they saying that gender is determined by physicality.
I'm only reading what was written.
That is a tough question. For myself I was always a little girl as a child. I thought I was a girl until my first grade teached told me I was a boy & that I had to sit on this side of the room with the boys. I was always feminine & felt good being a girl however I was forced to do all the boy things to make me become a man. So I had to try & act male to make my parents/father happy & to fit in with other kids at school.
So I guess society kind of forced me to act & grow up as a male even thought I've always been a nice girl/woman inside.
I'd say gender is both in the brain and placed on us by society. If you break it down, there are the basic two sexes. And going back through history, if you simplify the two sexes, there are the basic roles which have evolved over time but remain essentially consistent. Women give birth and nurse their young, men provide and protect. This propagates the species ad nauseam. Now, for the most part I think that the biological functions of the sexes determines gender overall, both in the brain and in the roles. We're humans and we can overcome these things, but as simple animals we rely on procreation and physical strength to survive, and naturally those two things are divided up between men and women, and are codependent. And this is where gender roles spawn from. As a society, we've evolved from those roles but like every other antiquated notion we've dragged along with us, gender roles have remained and have unfortunately become synonymous with gender identity and biological sex.
So here in the present, I think that the function of gender identity is to determine which roles are appropriate for us so that 'society doesn't collapse'. ::) I think it acts as an internal compass separate from and redundant to our biological sex, maybe because (as evidenced by us) gender identity doesn't always align with the body. Obviously it's supposed to align, but I don't think it's necessary for it to anymore. Family units are varied now but still functional, and though men can't give birth (technically), woman CAN 'hunt and gather' and provide for the family. And men can still take care of the kids. But even if gender identity isn't biologically necessary anymore, society has lagged behind and still pressures people into the categories of the two sexes. So those with severe body dysmorphia and hatred for their genitals are likely battling the biological component of gender identity while everyone else is battling societal segregation, or of course a mix of the two.
Personally, I feel my internal gender compass does point to female more than male, and that there's a brain-structure issue/chemical or hormonal imbalance/whatever to explain it. But what makes it worse for me is that society doesn't believe that, and so I'm being shoved into the gender roles that society thinks matches my sex but not my gender identity. And of course ask any ignorant bigoted non-trans person and they'll go on and on about chromosomes and genitals, like that matters more than the mind and our sense of who were are. >.<
QuoteI think that the function of gender identity is to determine which roles are appropriate for us
I don't think anyone's identity has a function. It just is. It is who you are, and not directive on how to act.
Quote from: LordKAT on November 19, 2013, 08:43:48 PM
I don't think anyone's identity has a function. It just is. It is who you are, and not directive on how to act.
Metaphysics, philosophy, religion, psychology, and all that fun stuff aside, I think everything (or 'most things' so as not to seem so definite) has a biological basis. And I believe that gender identity may function to identify with those of the same gender (and ideally same sex). After all, we relate to and identify with women despite our biology, do we not? It likely plays a large part in social interactions, and who knows? Maybe it's the biological reason for social segregation of the sexes. Maybe it fosters a sense of community between women and other women, or men and other men. Gender identity isn't just a philosophical or psychological concept floating around in our minds, and it's not strictly societal, so it must have a biological purpose. So that's just my guess as to it's function. But then, I also don't know what the general consensus is on the overall definition of 'gender identity' and what the other aspects of it may be, but I'm sure there are purposes for those as well.
I also want to note, I'm not as cold and clinical as I come off as in these posts. I get like this when I'm trying to convey my thoughts, but my feelings are generally excluded. So how do I
feel about gender and gender identity? It sucks, and it's unfair. I feel like transitioning could almost be a spiritual experience and a big middle-finger to the cosmos/mother nature/god(s)/fate/whatever. I feel like at my core I'm this vulnerable little girl trying to find her way out of a cruel trap. Like I'm living this surreal alternate life in someone else's body, and that the life playing out in my head should be the real one. I feel disgusted by men and betrayed by women for playing a tennis match with my emotions every time I'm shoved into the wrong category. I feel like I should have some cosmic vindication for my thoughts and feelings, and that I have to constantly explain, evaluate, and quantify my fate to cope with the reality that there is none. My body is a rental car that I just don't give a ->-bleeped-<- about. I'm just waiting to trade it in for a model that will show the world what kind of a driver I really am.
Both. Neither. It's complicated.
Let's break it down using cis women as an example.
Body: If a "female" body is what makes a woman, then do women who have had double mastectomies cease to be women? No. Who have their hair cut short or shaved completely? No. Who have small hips and broad shoulders? No.
Genitals: If genitals make a woman, then do women who have had full or partial hysterectomies cease to be women? No. Who have had vaginectomies? No.
Hormones: If hormones make a woman, then do women who are menopausal cease to be women? No. Who experience other hormone imbalances? No.
Motherhood: If a the ability to be a mother is what makes a woman, then what about those who are infertile or otherwise cannot get pregnant or carry to term? Still women.
Social role: If social role is what makes a woman, then do those who are breadwinners, work in male-dominated or traditionally "masculine" fields cease to be women? Nope. What about those who are in relationships with other women so that it renders speculations about who is the "man" and the "woman" in the relationship meaningless? Still women!
Clothes: If clothing and presentation makes a woman, then do those who have never worn a dress in their life cease to be women? Those who wear suits and shop in the men's section cease to be women? Those who don't wear makeup? Not a chance!
Relationships: If a woman gets along with men better and has few, if any, female friends, does she cease to be a woman? If she prefers being the pursuer in dating, the top in the bedroom... I think you all know the answer. ;)
I think questions like this are interesting, but ultimately useless and unhelpful. We shouldn't be focusing on what criteria someone might need to meet in order to be allowed to identify and live as a gender, we should be talking about ways to break down those barriers so that more people can get the medical and mental heath care that they need so that they can start living as the person that they feel that they are. Doing this will also help out our nonbinary and other gendered siblings as well, who don't currently have access to the same social infrastructure to call upon that trans* men and women do for the purposes of transitioning and being recognized. Sure, it'll remove some of the shorthand cues and symbols that MtFs and FtMs find so helpful, but those cultural assumptions usually do more harm than good.
Well I think you're trying to define what a female is, and I think it's the biology. Everything that we lack and strive for (generalizing). Otherwise we have the mental component so we would be considered female by society if we had the biology to match. Ask the cisgendered and they'll constantly go on about chromosomes or genitals. ::)
Quote from: Ashey on November 20, 2013, 10:46:03 AM
Well I think you're trying to define what a female is, and I think it's the biology. Everything that we lack and strive for (generalizing). Otherwise we have the mental component so we would be considered female by society if we had the biology to match. Ask the cisgendered and they'll constantly go on about chromosomes or genitals. ::)
My point is... I'm sick of caring what cis folk say, lol. And that it's no one physical thing you can point to and say "yes, this is THE reason why someone is X gender". You can't, and I think it's dubious to want to even try. There's no gay gene (there's no ace gene either, and I for one am glad), and things are turning out for the better on that front without one. It freaks me out that we want a gender gene.
And when are generalizations ever good? I mean, really, when you get down to brass tacks?
I'm generalizing simply to summarize the MtF condition for the sake of conversation. I understand we're all different, and we could just say we all feel whatever way we feel and screw all other opinions, but where would that get us? We wouldn't bother discussing anything lol. In any case, everything I say is just my personal viewpoint. Feel free to disregard any of it if you'd like. I'm not trying to make everything into absolutes, just offering ideas. However, I still hold the belief that gender has a biological basis. Maybe not a gene but certainly a component of our brain structures, and therefore has a purpose. Whether we adhere to that or not is beside the point.
QuoteMaybe not a gene but certainly a component of our brain structures, and therefore has a purpose. Whether we adhere to that or not is beside the point.
And your appendix does what?
Quote from: Lo on November 20, 2013, 11:15:53 AM
My point is... I'm sick of caring what cis folk say, lol. And that it's no one physical thing you can point to and say "yes, this is THE reason why someone is X gender". You can't, and I think it's dubious to want to even try. There's no gay gene (there's no ace gene either, and I for one am glad), and things are turning out for the better on that front without one. It freaks me out that we want a gender gene.
And when are generalizations ever good? I mean, really, when you get down to brass tacks?
I personally believe that any gay or transgender gene is not something the baby needs, but the mother. A mother can be predisposed to induce the transgender condition in the fetus. Environmental factors come into play too. It's just my theory... the child could help cause the hormonal differences in the womb that cause these conditions.
Society is the problem with gender. Cissexuals just don't understand - my parents quoted some stat that 97% of marriages where one partner comes OOTC end in divorce. Well sure... over 97% of those marriages are with hetero cissexual spouses who, because of society, cannot handle it. How does that put me at fault? Societal gender roles are responsible for tearing apart non-gender-normative families... Societal gender roles are a perversion of biological gender (which includes intersex genders such as transgender).
Quote from: LordKAT on November 20, 2013, 04:04:43 PM
And your appendix does what?
Just because we don't know what it does, doesn't mean that it doesn't or never had a purpose. There are plenty of things about humans that are obsolete evolutionary throwbacks. They're called atavisms. Most people, if not all, have lots of junk DNA that isn't expressed and is essentially useless, but once upon a time it had a purpose. In the future, it's entirely possible that gender and gender identity will seem like an archaic concept (hopefully we're already starting to lean that way), and biology may shun the need for it. Consider it a possibility for a long off 'cure' for gender dysphoria. But right now it's still very much prevalent, and biology hasn't forsaken it yet. Just because you can't come up with a use for it, doesn't mean one does not exist.
Quote from: LordKAT on November 20, 2013, 04:04:43 PM
And your appendix does what?
Well current medical thinking is that in fact it does have a residual purpose as a reservoir of beneficial and necessary intestinal flora. So not entirely redundant. It will of course be 20 years before this new understanding percolates our of medical schools and into the wider medical population, just as it has taken a similar amount of time for the idea of trans as a normal medical condition to become established.
As far as the Appendix is concerned it had been noted that following any upsets to the balance of the intestine, those with an appendix are more successful at reestablishing healthy populations... they recover quicker, and seem less prone to chronic conditions which result from unhealthy flora balances.
Consequently the latest thinking in many UK med-schools is swinging against surgery for non ruptured inflamed appendix, and towards treating with antibiotics, based on the fact that we now believe the residual appendix DOES indeed have a function and thus it's retention confers a marginal evolutionary advantage which is why its hasn't just evolved out of existence.
So in fact, as a medical student, I'm here to tell you that I have been taught that we do in fact now know what it does... :)
Quote from: Ashey on November 20, 2013, 12:05:11 PM
I'm generalizing simply to summarize the MtF condition for the sake of conversation. I understand we're all different, and we could just say we all feel whatever way we feel and screw all other opinions, but where would that get us?
I dunno, I don't see this conversation going anywhere either. ;P
I think people should be allowed to identity however they want and have their bodies match inasmuch as possible. Nobody needs a brain scan to transition; let's keep it that way!
Quote from: Lo on November 20, 2013, 07:09:07 PM
I dunno, I don't see this conversation going anywhere either. ;P
I think people should be allowed to identity however they want and have their bodies match inasmuch as possible. Nobody needs a brain scan to transition; let's keep it that way!
If a brain scan could help with early detection, though... it's still worthwhile.
Convincing the parents it's real is important... convincing ourselves should be inconsequential (especially now that we're here at Susan's).
Quote from: LordKAT on November 19, 2013, 05:07:12 PM
I'm only reading what was written.
Look, I don't want to argue with you but I'll leave it at this. It doesn't mention anywhere, in my posts at least, that society
defines your gender. My point is that gender is an identity that's determined internally by the mind but the way gender is defined by society and the physical body are still a part of that identity, that's an undeniable fact.
Many people look at their bodies or their social gender roles and determine that they're male because the fact that they're physically male or fit male social roles matches the male identity they've given themselves.
But for transgendered people, we look at our bodies or our social gender roles and feel dysphoric because they don't match our internal gender identity. Transitioning is changing genders physically and socially. People don't transition to change their personalities or minds.
The physical body and society do not
define one's gender identity but they do affect it. And if you still refuse to believe that, take a look at all of your own social roles. Are you a son, a brother, a husband, a father? That's a rhetorical question but I'm sure there are many gender specific social roles you fit. Regardless of what they are, all of those are social roles don't
define your gender identity but they're part of it.
Quote from: kabit on November 21, 2013, 04:19:49 AM
If a brain scan could help with early detection, though... it's still worthwhile.
Convincing the parents it's real is important... convincing ourselves should be inconsequential (especially now that we're here at Susan's).
I could see that doing a lot of good and a lot of harm too.
What if the kid doesn't have the brain structure for it? Just more "proof" that they're being ridiculous and need fixing by already close-minded parents.
Quote from: Lo on November 21, 2013, 10:06:41 AM
I could see that doing a lot of good and a lot of harm too.
What if the kid doesn't have the brain structure for it? Just more "proof" that they're being ridiculous and need fixing by already close-minded parents.
That depends... we don't know if all transgender people have this brain condition or not. We do know the condition exists... and the only way to check is post mortem (as I understand it).
If all have it, and it could be checked accurately (zero false positives)... it would only be of benefit. Obviously this statement is impossible... no medical test is that accurate and we're likely dealing with a normal curve for brain gender structure, too...
On the other hand, there are lots of tests that have false positives and false negatives. These are just as damaging, but the overall benefit outweighs the overall detriment. Detection is important, but as with any medical test it shouldn't be the only determination depending on how accurate the test is.
I think we're a long way off from that, though... there's just not enough research in this area.
Quote from: Lo on November 20, 2013, 11:15:53 AM
My point is... I'm sick of caring what cis folk say, lol. And that it's no one physical thing you can point to and say "yes, this is THE reason why someone is X gender". You can't, and I think it's dubious to want to even try. There's no gay gene (there's no ace gene either, and I for one am glad), and things are turning out for the better on that front without one. It freaks me out that we want a gender gene.
And when are generalizations ever good? I mean, really, when you get down to brass tacks?
Yes there is. Several well done studies have shown that the brains of Trans folk are different. The areas that are different, closely resemble the size/make up of the "gender" Trans folks identify as. HRT has been ruled out as a cause for the differences. They still don't know why or how, but the evidence points to a biological "abnormality" that cause GID. But then again, science has just begun understanding the human brain.
For some reason, some members of the Trans community(Not pointing at anyone @ Susan"s) refuse to accept that something is different with us. The mere thought of being "Damaged Goods" makes them stop any form of critical thinking. Literally, some argue that there is nothing wrong with us and we're just different! Ohhh yeah, what happened is a Unicorn ran past my mom and farted right when she was giving birth! That's why my brain doesn't match my body! ::)
Heck, for all we know, this is some evolutionary adaptation in the works. In a 1000 years we'll grow are young in cocoons & look like the "Grey's". :P
Quote from: kabit on November 21, 2013, 10:54:22 AM
That depends... we don't know if all transgender people have this brain condition or not. We do know the condition exists... and the only way to check is post mortem (as I understand it).
If all have it, and it could be checked accurately (zero false positives)... it would only be of benefit. Obviously this statement is impossible... no medical test is that accurate and we're likely dealing with a normal curve for brain gender structure, too...
On the other hand, there are lots of tests that have false positives and false negatives. These are just as damaging, but the overall benefit outweighs the overall detriment. Detection is important, but as with any medical test it shouldn't be the only determination depending on how accurate the test is.
I think we're a long way off from that, though... there's just not enough research in this area.
I just think of it similarly to my depression.
I should have been put on this medication a decade ago, but neither of my parents really believed that depression is anything more than a phase with outside causes. Since before puberty my discontent and lethargy was continually excused as being from this or that thing going on in my life; my suicidal ideations too.
Now that I'm on the medication, I feel great. And I don't really give a hoot if it's the placebo affect or not. The point is that I'm functional in a way that I don't ever remember being, so to me, this stuff is worth its weight in gold. But I can also say that I would have never wanted to be tested a la brain scan, or something that gave similar results. If it would have turned up negative, it would have given my parents fuel to keep blaming me for being sad and lazy and negative (as one of them still does). It would have made made me feel like a fraud and probably made things worse. Idk. To me, "maybe" is a helluva lot better than "no" where this stuff is concerned. But that's just one person's opinion on the matter. :I
Quote from: DanicaCarin on November 21, 2013, 11:21:25 AM
Yes there is. Several well done studies have shown that the brains of Trans folk are different. The areas that are different, closely resemble the size/make up of the "gender" Trans folks identify as. HRT has been ruled out as a cause for the differences. They still don't know why or how, but the evidence points to a biological "abnormality" that cause GID. But then again, science has just begun understanding the human brain.
For some reason, some members of the Trans community(Not pointing at anyone @ Susan"s) refuse to accept that something is different with us. The mere thought of being "Damaged Goods" makes them stop any form of critical thinking. Literally, some argue that there is nothing wrong with us and we're just different! Ohhh yeah, what happened is a Unicorn ran past my mom and farted right when she was giving birth! That's why my brain doesn't match my body! ::)
I know that, but like I've said elsewhere and with other folks, that body of knowledge is woefully incomplete, and as such has the potential to do a lot of damage too. For instance, there's no room for nonbinary genders with that explanation, so it doesn't help someone like me at all. But I think words like "wrong" and "different" are pretty meaningless when you look at the situation you're describing: having the brain anatomy of X in the body of Y. To me, that's not
incorrect, it just
is. And it's up to the person with the brain in question to determine if that makes them damaged goods or just quirky. Just like any other kind of deviation from the norm when it comes to mental and physical health. My skeletal woes don't make me damaged goods, though it might to someone else. My bones and joints are shaped the way they are and that's that. It prevents me from doing some things that others with a more "normal" bone structure can do, but it allows me to do a couple things that they can't also. Isn't that the definition of "different"?
Quote from: DanicaCarin on November 21, 2013, 11:21:25 AM
Yes there is. Several well done studies have shown that the brains of Trans folk are different. The areas that are different, closely resemble the size/make up of the "gender" Trans folks identify as. HRT has been ruled out as a cause for the differences. They still don't know why or how, but the evidence points to a biological "abnormality" that cause GID. But then again, science has just begun understanding the human brain.
For some reason, some members of the Trans community(Not pointing at anyone @ Susan"s) refuse to accept that something is different with us. The mere thought of being "Damaged Goods" makes them stop any form of critical thinking. Literally, some argue that there is nothing wrong with us and we're just different! Ohhh yeah, what happened is a Unicorn ran past my mom and farted right when she was giving birth! That's why my brain doesn't match my body! ::)
Well... unicorn farts ARE special :P and so are we!
Seriously, though... yes we're different... yes we're broken... and yes we can be fixed. We're not "damaged goods..." that's self deprecating. Would you call someone born into a wheelchair "damaged goods?" I do not. Differences are exactly what the world needs to grow and our differences are fairly easily treated (medically speaking).
Quote from: Lo on November 21, 2013, 11:34:46 AM
I just think of it similarly to my depression.
I should have been put on this medication a decade ago, but neither of my parents really believed that depression is anything more than a phase with outside causes. Since before puberty my discontent and lethargy was continually excused as being from this or that thing going on in my life; my suicidal ideations too.
Now that I'm on the medication, I feel great. And I don't really give a hoot if it's the placebo affect or not. The point is that I'm functional in a way that I don't ever remember being, so to me, this stuff is worth its weight in gold. But I can also say that I would have never wanted to be tested a la brain scan, or something that gave similar results. If it would have turned up negative, it would have given my parents fuel to keep blaming me for being sad and lazy and negative (as one of them still does). It would have made made me feel like a fraud and probably made things worse. Idk. To me, "maybe" is a helluva lot better than "no" where this stuff is concerned. But that's just one person's opinion on the matter. :I
I know that, but like I've said elsewhere and with other folks, that body of knowledge is woefully incomplete, and as such has the potential to do a lot of damage too. For instance, there's no room for nonbinary genders with that explanation, so it doesn't help someone like me at all. But I think words like "wrong" and "different" are pretty meaningless when you look at the situation you're describing: having the brain anatomy of X in the body of Y. To me, that's not incorrect, it just is. And it's up to the person with the brain in question to determine if that makes them damaged goods or just quirky. Just like any other kind of deviation from the norm when it comes to mental and physical health. My skeletal woes don't make me damaged goods, though it might to someone else. My bones and joints are shaped the way they are and that's that. It prevents me from doing some things that others with a more "normal" bone structure can do, but it allows me to do a couple things that they can't also. Isn't that the definition of "different"?
Agreed, the medical community is far from completely understanding the human brain works. And, any difference in brain structure could easily include the non binary genders as well. But at the end of the day we(TRans folks) are different from the majority of people. So regardless of the cause of that difference, we have to accept the difference, and go from there. :)
Quote from: DanicaCarin on November 21, 2013, 11:47:10 AM
Agreed, the medical community is far from completely understanding the human brain works. And, any difference in brain structure could easily include the non binary genders as well. But at the end of the day we(TRans folks) are different from the majority of people. So regardless of the cause of that difference, we have to accept the difference, and go from there. :)
Yeah, don't get me wrong-- I like that many of us can call upon this evidence to help gain acceptance and support. It just makes me nervous when it's used not as another tool in the toolbox, but as THE ONLY tool, and apply it to every trans* person ever. It gives people like truscum fuel for their bigotry fires. :\
ETA: Speaking of, anybody remember that movie Gattaca?
Quote from: LordKAT on November 19, 2013, 03:14:59 PM
I disagree with you ladies. The first definition is accurate for me. The 'physical gender' in earlier posts is more simply genitals, not gender. Related but not the same. I don't believe gender changes. We are who we are. What society says does not make me what I am, only affects how I act and feel. I have never been female and have not 'become' a man. I have always been a man.
Societal expectations change, but that does not change who I am nor can it. My identity is a solid unmoveable rock. People's perceptions of me are not. Their perceptions do NOT define me. My genitals do NOT define me. I am who I have always been, surgery or hormones or society does not matter.
This is how I feel on the matter.
Quote from: kabit on November 21, 2013, 11:39:24 AM
Well... unicorn farts ARE special :P and so are we!
Seriously, though... yes we're different... yes we're broken... and yes we can be fixed. We're not "damaged goods..." that's self deprecating. Would you call someone born into a wheelchair "damaged goods?" I do not. Differences are exactly what the world needs to grow and our differences are fairly easily treated (medically speaking).
I didn't mean to suggest we are damaged goods, rather some Trans folks seem to feel that a brain make up that is different, makes them that way. That they are normal as can be, no matter what. Any suggestion that they(we) are different makes them defensive. :)
Quote from: DanicaCarin on November 22, 2013, 11:08:11 AM
I didn't mean to suggest we are damaged goods, rather some Trans folks seem to feel that a brain make up that is different, makes them that way. That they are normal as can be, no matter what. Any suggestion that they(we) are different makes them defensive. :)
That says two contradicting things, though... 1) we're different 2) we're not normal.
We're different and normal. Differences
are normal... our differences are just not currently very socially acceptable. Society tries very hard to make everyone the same... when that's not truly possible because everyone is different from everyone else. That's the problem with impossible standards of masculinity and femininity.
Quote from: kabit on November 22, 2013, 11:25:41 AM
That says two contradicting things, though... 1) we're different 2) we're not normal.
We're different and normal. Differences are normal... our differences are just not currently very socially acceptable. Society tries very hard to make everyone the same... when that's not truly possible because everyone is different from everyone else. That's the problem with impossible standards of masculinity and femininity.
Is a baby born with a "bad" heart" normal? No...... But we as society understand that its something that is abnormal, yet it doesn't make the child abnormal(As far as society goes). If the medical community could show society that Trans people literally have brains closer in size to the gender they ID with(or some other biological cause). That regardless of the physical body, there brain says the opposite. I believe society would understand, and not treat us as a group of people who choose this. Similar to how the majority of society has accepted that being gay is not a choice.
idk the answer to this? but i just feel like everyone could use a hug and maybe a chill pill :)
Yes... we're basically arguing semantics.
I'm normal and have a treatable condition. Abnormal is basically the same as saying "damaged goods" to me, unless the word is used scientifically.
I'm different. That's good and normal. The greatest good has always come from those who stand up against the neat little boxes society likes to make.
At this point, I honestly believe there's way more variables than people acknowledge but at the end of the day, I think gender itself is determined by a person's conscious brain. That said, I fully believe that one can be born with the brain of one gender and the body normally associated with another. I also think that society can certainly play an early and/or ongoing roll on your conscious mind.