Hi all,
I am just under two years post op by Brassard but I am quite shallow, I have never been able to reach the recommended dot on my largest dilator, and I almost had to get a skin graft going into surgery, thank god I didn't.
Anyways, I have not had a lot of intercourse, as you probably could have guessed by what I just said above. Apparently that helps to some extent. So the other night I stupidly when to some random guy's house for some, er, fun. I am as stealth as possible, we hardly knew each other, and as far as he knew I was cis. Especially around men I make sure my voice and overall appearance is in check.
So things started happening and he started to finger me, but stopped after a short while, which I thought was kind of wierd that he stopped so soon in the first place. Then out of the blue he asked if he could ask me something, and that I had to be honest. So of course I immediately knew what happened and almost had a heart attack. Busted?! Regardless, after a few minutes of super awkward silence he said that he can't really come up with how to ask this mystery question, but that this probably wasn't a good idea and he figured I should go home.
I mean, I do have a slight scar from my trach shave about three years ago, but it seemed like everything was going smoothly until he fingered me a bit. We didn't even have sex. So I'm really confused now because since I've had the surgery I've been poked and proded by all sorts of body parts by straight men who didn't even bat an eye, and the other night I get fingered for 30 seconds and I'm clocked? Wtf?
Were the men before that (who didn't know) just rookies? I didn't think a post op vag is THAT different, especially if done by brassard, who generally has a good rep.
Please help, now I'm paranoid and I do tend to obsess about things like this. ::) Thanks friends!
Frustratingly, since he didn't ask, you don't know what was going through his mind. It might have been that... it might've been some truly random and bizarre idea (he wondered if you were a virgin, maybe?!).
It seems as though you're fine, since so many other men didn't notice; the odds that ALL of them were so inexperienced don't seem high. Even if he had a sudden suspicion, it might not have been the vagina that did it; I hate to be cynical, but maybe he even tempted you into some fun so he *could* check his ideas, or verify some nasty gossip. Regardless, I'm sorry you had such a humiliating experience, and he acted kinda like a jerk there. No woman is going to enjoy that experience, trans or not!
(Personally, I went to Brassard over a year ago, and was shocked beyond belief to have a gynecologist mistake me for cis after the exam. That was about a year post-op. She did notice scars, but assumed they were episiotomy and hysterectomy scars.)
wow thats udd. i have never had that happen. i guess its possible ?
My goodness Jenna, it hasn't been THAT many men lol but it's interesting you also mention brassard's results. Hence my confusion lol.
Now I might as well wear a chastity belt since I'm too paranoid to put out going forward!
Quote from: Icephoenyx on November 28, 2013, 07:51:25 PM
Hi all,
I am just under two years post op by Brassard but I am quite shallow, I have never been able to reach the recommended dot on my largest dilator, and I almost had to get a skin graft going into surgery, thank god I didn't.
Anyways, I have not had a lot of intercourse, as you probably could have guessed by what I just said above. Apparently that helps to some extent. So the other night I stupidly when to some random guy's house for some, er, fun. I am as stealth as possible, we hardly knew each other, and as far as he knew I was cis. Especially around men I make sure my voice and overall appearance is in check.
So things started happening and he started to finger me, but stopped after a short while, which I thought was kind of wierd that he stopped so soon in the first place. Then out of the blue he asked if he could ask me something, and that I had to be honest. So of course I immediately knew what happened and almost had a heart attack. Busted?! Regardless, after a few minutes of super awkward silence he said that he can't really come up with how to ask this mystery question, but that this probably wasn't a good idea and he figured I should go home.
I mean, I do have a slight scar from my trach shave about three years ago, but it seemed like everything was going smoothly until he fingered me a bit. We didn't even have sex. So I'm really confused now because since I've had the surgery I've been poked and proded by all sorts of body parts by straight men who didn't even bat an eye, and the other night I get fingered for 30 seconds and I'm clocked? Wtf?
Were the men before that (who didn't know) just rookies? I didn't think a post op vag is THAT different, especially if done by brassard, who generally has a good rep.
Please help, now I'm paranoid and I do tend to obesses about things like this. ::) Thanks friends!
I would be feeling the same way...but that because I seem to take every little coincidence and relate it to me.
In reality I'm sure it has nothing to do with what you (or I would be) are thinking.
I can't imagine what he was thinking...since I have a hard time wondering what many men think (even though I once was one!!) It does remind me of a situation many years ago. I was being intimate with a woman and was trying to penetrate her but was unable too...me being me! blamed it on me being so small....but I did wonder a bit why she was so tight as well. She even had a child so I know she wasn't trans. I just ended up giving up!
I would like to believe he thought you may be a virgin....but I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't want to take advantage of that situation...like most men would want too!
yeah in 2nd thought if he was fingering you and you felt super tight. he might have thought you were a virgin and that it was weird if you were cuz he didnt want to be your first and have you being all clingy like alot of people are (girls) after your first
Whatever the heck his issue was it doesn't sound like he was worth sleeping with anyway. This may be insensitive of me to say, especially not knowing the full context, but that is how it looks from here.
My apologies. I misunderstood that sentence - but really, even a couple other men not noticing argues for it not being obvious. :)
And I have known men who didn't want to be with virgins, either b/c they didn't want the pressure to make it perfect or the "clingy" aspect.
Icephoenix he didn't clock you, so get that out of your head.
Quote from: Tristan on November 28, 2013, 08:32:01 PM
yeah in 2nd thought if he was fingering you and you felt super tight. he might have thought you were a virgin and that it was weird if you were cuz he didnt want to be your first and have you being all clingy like alot of people are (girls) after your first
Tristan is probably right, he probably also thought you where just a tight nervous girl. I always remember my first time with a guy, I was nervous and tight but did get easier over time. He didn't want to ask you straight out of you where a virgin.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on November 28, 2013, 10:17:03 PM
My apologies. I misunderstood that sentence - but really, even a couple other men not noticing argues for it not being obvious. :)
And I have known men who didn't want to be with virgins, either b/c they didn't want the pressure to make it perfect or the "clingy" aspect.
Jenna Marie is right, lots of guys just don't want a ''clingy virgin'' but a girl with lots of experience.
I now have a husband, but down the years I was always nervous with a guy the first time, thats just my experience.
Look I hate to disillusion you but I've seen results from Brassard, Mcginn, Meltzer, Supporn, Bowers, Bellringer, Thomas - in fact most of the well known surgeons. Yes they are good, and certainly a lot of progress has been made towards a more natural appearance over the years, but they are still far from perfect, and indeed knowing what I do of anatomy I think it is will be some time before complete perfection is attained.
For example the vaginal opening lacks the correct appearance, the vagina is lined with morphed exoskin as opposed to striated smooth muscle and gobet cells, the clitoris is seldom entirely correct, the labia minora are usually not semi erectile as they should be, the skenes and batholin glands are entirely absent, and finally there is no cervix to feel inside.
Now ok I have a lot more anatomical knowledge than most, and many people may not notice, but you don't have to know ALL of that to realise something is different. Some people just will... not all, maybe even not the majority, but some... as you have found out.
Even before my medical training I could personally spot those differences with ease, but then again I knew what I was looking for - and in my case it wouldn't have mattered anyway because I am attracted to people of either sex and - irrespective of how they arrived at their current anatomy.
So bottom line - you may get away with it most of the time, but you are never going to get away with it all of the time. This also is precisely why, although I don't routinely identify as being intersex these days, I do make a point of telling anyone that I am contemplating getting intimate with, that "I was once intersex."
You might think that this would be a risk, but I see it differently. I see it as a refiners fire, my gift of being able to sift out the worthless dross in advance. A gift that few cis people have... with this gift I can avoid unwittingly making love to a scumbag!
I only want to bed someone who will respect me and all that I stand for. The way they react to my disclosure tells me much about whether they are worthy of my intimacy. If they fail my test - I do not want them in my bed, my home, my life, or my body. They are not worthy of me, so far from them rejecting me I REJECT them.
Quote from: Doctorwho? on November 29, 2013, 07:44:27 PM
Look I hate to disillusion you but I've seen results from Brassard, Mcginn, Meltzer, Supporn, Bowers, Bellringer, Thomas - in fact most of the well known surgeons. Yes they are good, and certainly a lot of progress has been made towards a more natural appearance over the years, but they are still far from perfect, and indeed knowing what I do of anatomy I think it is will be some time before complete perfection is attained.
For example the vaginal opening lacks the correct appearance, the vagina is lined with morphed exoskin as opposed to striated smooth muscle and gobet cells, the clitoris is seldom entirely correct, the labia minora are usually not semi erectile as they should be, the skenes and batholin glands are entirely absent, and finally there is no cervix to feel inside.
Now ok I have a lot more anatomical knowledge than most, and many people may not notice, but you don't have to know ALL of that to realise something is different. Some people just will... not all, maybe even not the majority, but some... as you have found out.
Even before my medical training I could personally spot those differences with ease, but then again I knew what I was looking for - and in my case it wouldn't have mattered anyway because I am attracted to people of either sex and - irrespective of how they arrived at their current anatomy.
So bottom line - you may get away with it most of the time, but you are never going to get away with it all of the time. This also is precisely why, although I don't routinely identify as being intersex these days, I do make a point of telling anyone that I am contemplating getting intimate with, that "I was once intersex."
You might think that this would be a risk, but I see it differently. I see it as a refiners fire, my gift of being able to sift out the worthless dross in advance. A gift that few cis people have... with this gift I can avoid unwittingly making love to a scumbag!
I only want to bed someone who will respect me and all that I stand for. The way they react to my disclosure tells me much about whether they are worthy of my intimacy. If they fail my test - I do not want them in my bed, my home, my life, or my body. They are not worthy of me, so far from them rejecting me I REJECT them.
I whole heartedly disagree!! First she never said that he seen her va jay jay, second even if he had I doubt he would of noticed something peculiar.
I am by no means an anatomy expert but in my years of researching about who I am I have not come across too many MTF va jay jays that jump out as "whoa!! what is that" In fact I have seen some cis va jay jays that could be more questionable than MTF ones.
I really believe there is something else going on here...and it has nothing to do with what the op feels it is or what you may also.
yeah covering OB in the hospital perfect is not a word i would use to describe any bagingo.lol
all things aside i would say relax as 99% of guys dont examine a girls downstairs. they have other things on the mind. your cool girl. no need to worry about the difference from one girls bagingo to another. they all looks different
DoctorWho : I've mentioned before that I was examined by a gyn and some covering doctors in a hospital (the latter was superficial only) and no one twigged to anything. I suppose I have no way to prove I'm not lying, but I was as shocked as anyone. (As for the lack of cervix, a complete hysterectomy can also account for that.) There is a HUGE variation in cis anatomy, enough that even an expert may not be able to say for absolute certain that a given vulva and vagina were surgically created. Suspect, yes, be utterly sure, no. And I really doubt that the average guy on the street can outperform a gynecologist at that. :)
I do, however, agree that rejecting people who cannot accept all that you are is brilliant advice.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on November 29, 2013, 11:38:25 PM
DoctorWho : I've mentioned before that I was examined by a gyn and some covering doctors in a hospital (the latter was superficial only) and no one twigged to anything. I suppose I have no way to prove I'm not lying, but I was as shocked as anyone. (As for the lack of cervix, a complete hysterectomy can also account for that.) There is a HUGE variation in cis anatomy, enough that even an expert may not be able to say for absolute certain that a given vulva and vagina were surgically created. Suspect, yes, be utterly sure, no. And I really doubt that the average guy on the street can outperform a gynecologist at that. :)
I do, however, agree that rejecting people who cannot accept all that you are is brilliant advice.
I think you are missing something very fundamental about the doctor patient relationship, and its something that as a current medical student is being hammered into me and my colleagues again and again. Thing is as a decent doctor your focus has to be on meeting your patient's need first and foremost. This means that sometimes we do hold back on things we know if we feel that to come out with them would be damaging to the patient. If it's not important then, anyone any good would not wish to needlessly upset.
We are trained to be respectful, so we would rather "under perform" and have you leave feeling good than "show off" our knowledge and have you leaving upset. A principle that Ironically I am now breaking - but only because you have asked the direct question, and in this context I see the balance of risk and benefit as being in favour of telling the truth as I see it. In a clinic - even if I was asked directly I might perceive the balance the other way. If I did, and I thought that admitting my suspicion would upset her I would almost certainly deny that I had spotted anything, and she would leave feeling happy that I had not "known". This doesn't mean I didn't suspect, It just means I wanted her to feel good.
If I as a doctor spotted a trans woman I would never tell her and I would certainly feign great surprise if she told me. We have even been taught to take this to the point where even if you know that your patient likely does not menstruate, we should ask her about her periods if the clinical situation warrants it... that's just respect, not making hard assumptions on the basis of what you have observed. So you are taught to be careful about what you do and don't say and how you react. Of course I would be, because I would be utterly respectful of her feelings, and wouldn't want her to think that she is abnormal - because it's not abnormal - just different and that is not the same concept. To be different is not wrong. That is what I and indeed ALL of my classmates have been taught and indeed in relation to this very situation, handling any differences in someone who is trans.
To imply Abnormal would imply pathology - something which needs treatment, this is just human difference. A Trans VJ may not not look out of place to casual inspection, but it's basically made from the wrong tissue - it lacks certain bits that even post hysterectomy would be there - for example the glands I mentioned, and there will be incision marks. I'm sorry but we are trained to look for them in whichever body locations we are examining, because its often a very good clue to possible complications. You can't hide from that. That's just a medical fact.
The point about whether he saw it is moot, but irrelevant because I didn't mention the biggest give away of the lot which is that you still have a prostate - it's not removed in gender surgery, and so if you had one before you still will. In fact we use it as part of the suspensory material for the neovagina. I don't need to see your VJ to feel that.
I have done prostate exams - in a normal male we put two gloved fingers inside the rectum - you can clearly palpate the prostate. Through a trans woman's VJ it would be even easier. I don't know if this guy knew his anatomy? Some men do... Like I say you may get away with it some of the time, but not all.
I'm really sorry that this is evidently a disappointment, but like I say while the results are good but they really aren't anatomically identical.
I've though long and hard about what the balance of risk and benefit here is, since the last thread where I decided to back out because it was getting inflamed and unhelpful. I do NOT want to upset anyone and I would love to apply the normal clinical logic of making people feel good here, and pretend that things are different, so that you all leave the thread feeling good. The only reason that, in the context of this forum, I am not doing so is that I am concerned for your safety. As someone who has lived with a closely related condition all my life, I understand the pressures and risks involved. I've been there, and I don't want to be reading about one of you getting injured by a random partner who you got unlucky with and who reacted badly.
In short I'm trying to keep you safe and be a true friend. Now people can shout at me, and tell me all the reasons why I am wrong, and a fool, and I will just fade away and withdraw again with no argument, because I have no wish to force truth on someone who doesn't want to accept it. Winning or losing this discussion it won't change the facts. I just hope none of you ever get to the point of realising I was right, on the point of a fist or a knife.
Please understand - I agree you will probably get away with it the majority of the time - and if you want to take that slight risk and not adopt my precautions, then that is totally your decision. Just be aware that there is a very slight risk involved... that's all I am saying. I'm NOT saying or implying that you VJ looks abnormal
Tristan - and I never have - I am just saying that there certainly are small differences that can be found if you are looking for them.
I'm sorry, but it sounds very far fetched that some guy momentarily fingers a girl and instantly determines whether she is cis or not by feeling for the prostate. How often does he do this to girls to become so adept? There are an infinite reasons why a guy would not want to proceed. Occam's razor, anyone?
Quote from: Nicolette on November 30, 2013, 04:56:16 AM
I'm sorry, but it sounds very far fetched that some guy momentarily fingers a girl and instantly determines whether she is cis or not by feeling for the prostate. How often does he do this to girls to become so adept? There are an infinite reasons why a guy would not want to proceed. Occam's razor, anyone?
Dr Who doesn't count since Dr who is a dr. thats like having a male Gyno clock you in that situation. most guys who are not doctors aren't going to know :P
Dr. Who : OK, longer version of the story is that that gyno sent a letter to the insurance company stating that I was a cis woman in menopause post-hysterectomy. (New insurance company, who wanted justification for why a 35-year-old woman was on HRT.) Those letters are legally and medically bound to be true and accurate; lying on one would possibly be cause for malpractice, and at the very least get her in deep trouble with the insurance co. So I'm 99% sure she was not lying, particularly as she was shocked when I called back to say she'd have to fix it.
I wasn't talking about stuff she said to me; in fact, because she did NOT say much to me directly, I had no clue she was going to be confused until I saw the letter, and it listed me as having had a hysterectomy and oophorectomy, and certified that there was internal evidence of that surgery! I'd assumed it was all in my medical records, so I never said anything to her.
Now, it's possible that you do have a preternaturally good ability to clock people's genitals. I certainly wouldn't doubt that, nor that some experts are going to be better at it than others. But I do think it's a point worth making that sometimes people - EVEN the experts - see what they expect to see, and if they're not thinking about trans issues or super-aware of the level of surgical skill now available, they will presume what they see is cis. My GP, for example, admitted outright that he was shocked at how "realistic" things looked. He'd assumed it'd be a very crude approximation. So given the huge variation in cis bodies and the fact that not everyone has studied reassignment surgeries in excruciating detail for years, the flip side has to be that plenty of people will not leap to that conclusion. You've clearly spent a long time and a lot of effort focusing on specifically this issue, so it's no wonder that you're better than most at distinguishing. Probably trans-specific gynecologists would be, too; like any specialist, someone who's up to date on the literature and dedicates their career to thinking about one medical sub-issue will be aware of all sorts of subtleties that escape 99% of non-specialists. Whereas a regular gynecologist who sees 99.99% cis people AND realizes there is a tremendous range of possibilities, is not looking for the zebra that 0.001% of the time that they have a trans patient.
Personally, I have no intention of having additional sexual partners anyway. But I'm inclined to think that people who've had experience with the wide variety of cis genitalia out there are more likely rather than less to assume that what they see falls into that spectrum, and I'd be comfortable gambling on that at this point IF I were inclined not to tell partners about my history (I'm the up-front sort, too).
I'm not offended, I just think you've spent so long focused on this stuff that you already expect the zebras, you know?
That's a fair comment actually. I've lived with it all for so long that my objectivity may very well be a bit skewed. A kind of hyper awareness perhaps.
Personally I think you probably had a combination of having a good cosmetic result and a doctor who, as you admit, probably wasn't looking for that and so didn't see it. - However the original poster did get a reaction and hence was looking for an explanation. The fact that they posted the question suggests to me that they already have a suspicion about the reason that they were spotted ... my point was really that it is possible that this was the case. He may of course have backed out for all sorts of other reasons as someone pointed out. This doesnt detract from my point that it is possible that he joined the dots up so to speak
I will reiterate for anyone listening in, that I didn't say that anyone would always be spotted - just that it is possible... and statistically therefore it will happen some of the time because the differences, however subtle are there. Therefore because the consequences of that event could be serious if someone was really unlucky, and was with someone with a hang up, it is my perception that its usually best to play safe, and not to assume that it is impossible for it to happen to me.
My purpose is merely to point out that where personal safety can be at stake it is usually best to adopt the realistic and precautionary principle and accept that if a thing can go wrong it probably will... (at some point).
Doctor Who : It is possible, yes, and personally I totally agree that it's wise to bear that in mind when it comes to situations where one's life or safety are on the line.
In this particular case, who knows; I was mostly trying to reassure her that those same odds are probably in her favor. She didn't seem worried about her safety, so it's mostly a question of self-esteem - and the thing most likely to get ME clocked was lack of confidence, so it's also useful to point out that there are any number of other explanations. The only times I've heard of where someone was clocked by their genitalia, the person already had suspicions and/or was using the vagina as an excuse to avoid saying something more hurtful like "your voice is awful." So basically once someone *starts* looking for "trans clues" the vagina is likely a potential giveaway, but the average person won't even think of trans as an option most of the time without some other hints.
In other words, I think you and I are generally in agreement.
(btw, I've also had 3 different docs go chasing after my prostate, and no one can find it, vaginally or anally. I know from Brassard that a) it is in there still and b) I guess estrogen can shrink the prostate, and mine is tiny now.)
He's a guy...it could have been anything. Hows about this: He had to take a dump suddenly in the middle of it, was going to ask her to hang on while he used the bathroom, then was too embarrassed and took off. Stranger things have happened. >:-)
If a man was to clock you it would most likely be based on some other factor than a finger in a dimly lit room. I think you should not be too worried about this incident and keep on soldiering forward with your new sex life!
Doctorwho: how did you "used" to be intersexed? edit: meaning just cosmetic? I realise that may be too private sorry.
I read a story once (by a major douchebag, but I suppose that is not relevant) and he was asking his friends how he could know if he slept with a post-op trans girl. They asked him if she was able to self-lubricate, because apparently if she said she didn't and needed lube, that meant she was not cisgender. So when I read your story, that's the first thing that popped into my mind. I think if he clocked you for anything, it would be based on that. But there's also the possibility he was leaving over something else.
Of course, plenty of cis women don't self-lubricate enough for sex without some help... and some trans women do. (Doesn't mean that's not the assumption this guy made, just that if so, he'd ironically be right for the wrong reason.)
Quote from: MiaOhMya! on November 30, 2013, 06:47:52 PM
Doctorwho: how did you "used" to be intersexed? edit: meaning just cosmetic? I realise that may be too private sorry.
Some would contend that I'm playing with words. Technically I remain karotypically intersex just as an MtF technically remains karotypically male. However - and it is a very big however, if you believe that transition or genital surgery has any value then you presumably must also believe that you don't in fact remain what you once were... The whole idea of transition is of transformation so that you cease to be what you once were just as a baby ceases to be a baby through the process of growing up.
It is therefore my perception that whether you have been trans, intersex or whatever, there comes a point when the processes that you have been though and the experience of your life means that these terms no longer adequately describe you - they cease to have useful relevance because you no longer experience those things.
At this point I would argue that continuing to wear the label is actually serving to confuse more than it will clarify. For example I had my surgery nearly 30 years ago but somebody hearing me use the term trans or intersex may assume that I am still in that place, and may therefore expect a whole bunch of things about me that simply are not the case any longer. So while I may not be truly cis, I am not entirely trans or intersex either.
The upshot is as there isn't a term that will fit 100% therefore I choose the one which seems closest... The facts are of my 50+ years of life I originally "transitioned" aged 5 thanks to a highly progressive, if slightly eccentric, mother. I spent about 14 years as an androgynous "almost" girl... Following a very late and only partial puberty, I then experimented with being a very soft male for about 5 years before retransitioning to female including genital surgery which I have been for around 30 years... At no time did I experience much in the way of dysphoria, depresssion, or distress.
The final irony was that only when I was post surgery did I finally discover that I was in fact partial androgen insensitive. I have thankfully never had to see a therapist. My treatment was pretty much on demand. None of this fits any classical narrative, so I'm left with choosing my own label, and as I have experienced none of the distress that the other conditions often seem to cause, I tend to identify as cis. Yes I know it isn't entirely right... but none of the other labels fits either. Now as it is a central tenet of this site, and community, that people should have the right to "self identify" I am merely claiming my right to do just that, while not denying that I have a rather complicated atypical past.
However I feel we are drifting off topic so if you don't mind I'll leave it there... but perhaps I'll leave you with this ironic thought:
Cis people, on hearing my story, seldom question my self definition, while some trans people seem to have huge difficulties with the idea that transition might actually mean one ceases to be what one once was.
I can entirely relate with this....one reason I find it hard to define myself as trans.
When starting to transition I though I would just be another transgendered women (or the dreaded word transsexual) never did I think I would look, act, sound and definitely feel like a normal women. Something happened in my little over 2 years of FT....I became a woman!!!
You may have had some biological reasons for feeling the same....and maybe I do as well......and the 5 years of HRT I am sure plays a part....but by far the most significant things that made me a woman, was society. I am not longer that other gender and it almost (not quite 100%) feels as if I was this gender for most of my life. I do think the fact that you had transitioned so long ago does make a difference.
I will say that the only time my gender issues arise are in trying to date....I am pre-op!! I don't think its too common for a woman to have a penis!!! This brings with it a whole new set of problems!!
Ice Phoenix: I do think it is unlikely that he would have clocked you through your vagina alone. Not all people have discernible scars but even those that do could have had episiotomy. I think IF anyone is clocked, it usually is not about the vagina. I do disagree with Dr Who: I think our vaginas are completely within the range of normal female genitals. Natal women have great variation, too. I do agree with the point, however, that certain medical staff may feign surprise when learning we are trans, mostly out of respect and/or not knowing how else to react. BUT if this is the case, I think, unless a highly skilled gyno, they are not going to clock you on vagina alone. And even if they do 'perceive' a difference, there can be no absolute way for them to know one way or another. Lack of cervix does not equal trans.
Very annoyingly, the masses seem to have this notion of all trans people needing lubricant for sex. This is notwithstanding the fact that lots of natal females do too! Very unfair. And if you get some douchebag man who believes everything he reads then he will instantly assume you are trans just because you need lube! Of course this will not necessarily be the case. I happen to know lots of natal women who need lube for sex, and they are all young! Lots of ciswomen are tight and feel shallower than others. So you just have to forget about all this. There was, in fact, a similar posting on here to yours a while back; I'm sure you'll find it if you look back.
So yes: basically I believe IF he clocked you (he may not have) it would not have been due to your vagina. Perhaps it was another reason. I actually thought, as someone else has said here, that he may have thought you a virgin. Can you not contact him and casually find out what he thought to put your mind at rest?
Quote from: boddi on December 01, 2013, 11:33:43 AM
I do disagree with Dr Who: I think our vaginas are completely within the range of normal female genitals. Natal women have great variation, too.
yes - but not to the point of Batholin glands and Skenes glands being completely absent I fear... now yes you do have to be something of an anatomist to see that and I don't think most people would notice - but on a point of purely factual information while they may appear with the normal range - they are in fact not, if looked at in extreme close up - which is all I have been repeatedly saying actually.
Unfortunately this is a solid medical fact and not really therefore a matter of much potential debate.
doctor who: i guess its safe to say that your 'facts' were not asked for. ultimatly, it coils down to everyone is different. you would have to suspect it from a different reason before you suspect that someones vagina was not genetically made. this info is coming from a student of psychology.
wow. a lot of debate going on. i think if he doesn't want to be with you hos loss. that goes for any guy. i would tell him ,"move along. i have other applicants to be my boyfriend "
and as far as all the sex talk. sex is sex. just work with what you got ;)
Well the appearance of glands could even be added if one were so inclined, however such glands are not visible without labia spread; even then only in proper lighting conditions. If anyone is looking so close then they may as well deserve to know the truth.
Doctor Who (I am very much looking forward to the next doctor!) that is an interesting point about labels over time as I am reaching a period in my life where trans applies by definition only.
MiaOhMya!: Interesting...So we could simulate the appearance of these glands, could we? How? With make-up? Or surgery? And Dr Who: yes, I know you are right, but I am saying that, as you concede, generally we look the same as a natal female. And generally we are well within the range. So nowt to fear, I say!
I feel like I'm missing the point.
Way I see it, if my lady needs to hide her SRS from me, I haven't done enough to make her feel safe with me. And even if that isn't my fault, I'd want to do better.
I think I can try and grasp that life before transition might be best left alone, but I the level of stealth sought here bewildering, even heartbreaking.
Maybe HE was a virgin? Or just scared of you (some guys get scared of pretty girls), or maybe he's a self denying gay, or pretty much a infinite amount of things that are possable.
As for wether or not he looked down there, i doubt it, most guys don't even like foreplay and "dive" right in the first chance they get.
Quote from: Xhianil on December 03, 2013, 05:12:04 PM
Maybe HE was a virgin? Or just scared of you (some guys get scared of pretty girls), or maybe he's a self denying gay, or pretty much a infinite amount of things that are possable.
As for wether or not he looked down there, i doubt it, most guys don't even like foreplay and "dive" right in the first chance they get.
Or a Tlover who clocked you waaay before....and dissapointed because you turned out to be post op.
Icephoenyx,
I really understand your paranoia (ok since mine came out a mess but it's another topic)
But can you still life with this doubt ?
I don't want to sound too crude, but objectively, yes, it could even be that he suspected something from
the appearance of your genitals. It's hard for us to judge, without knowing what they look like. It's not so
much a matter of what surgeon made your work. I agree genetic vulvae largely vary between individuals,
but if one does present some feature(s) ways too off the average, then an experienced man could detect
something strange, expecially when he starts doing things like fingering and so on.
Please don't feel offended by my words, I'm just trying to help you understainding the truth. You might
also think to take some shots of your genitals and post them somewhere for us to tell you our opinion,
or even here (I don't know whether it is allowed or not ?) Or you could even post them privately to
somebody you really trust, asking her to be as honest as she can.
Another option for you could be to investigate together with another boy (if any) who enjoys making love
with you instead and who never suspected anything: then you could start talking with him of your bad experience, ONLY of course if you know he doesn't get annoied by you telling him of having had sex with another guy, something sounding like "Do you actually enjoy sex with me ? Since my old boyfriend, that bad
guy, didn't like my genitals at all... and I didn't like theirs of course, it looked really like a long crooked stick"
or such. It's to you to find the best words...
Quote from: Mirian on December 07, 2013, 08:00:54 AM
of course, it looked really like a long crooked stick"
or such. It's to you to find the best words...
Telling him something like that will make
him insecure about the shape and size of
his penis.....that can make him think 'but what does she
really think of mine?'
It's a bit crude, isn't it?
I have to say, there is a specific difference I have noted when with a post-op. The trimmed corpora cavernosa may be more apparent under the skin than anything a cis woman presents when aroused.
Just stating the most obvious thing I could determine blindfolded.
Quote from: Dahlia on December 07, 2013, 09:29:32 AM
Telling him something like that will make him insecure about the shape and size of his penis.....that can make him think 'but what does she really think of mine?'
'that mine is fine instead, since I neither criticized her nor I escaped from bed so I shouldn't worry of her critics' :D
Ok, it was just for saying :)
Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on December 07, 2013, 10:22:40 AM
I have to say, there is a specific difference I have noted when with a post-op. The trimmed corpora cavernosa may be more apparent under the skin than anything a cis woman presents when aroused.
Just stating the most obvious thing I could determine blindfolded.
I have to say that those surgeons who fail to remove the corpora cavernosa TO THE BONE should definitely go searching
another job, not SRS. Why am I telling that ? Cos my surgeon made such a disaster (as I explained in another post)
and I will have to fix this issue also. And from what I read, heard and seen, he was not the only one doing that.
I have read enough med publications now... residuals of erectile tissue (corpora spongiosa and cavernosa) is one of
the most frequent reasons for a revision surgery. Bad thing...
My surgery was very early (1974), not long after Dr. Biber first started his practice in Colorado, and is not nearly as refined as today's surgeries. Dr. Biber's objective was to enable me to have as enjoyable a sex life as possible and he succeeded in spades!
When I was young and dating young men who didn't have a lot of first hand knowledge of female anatomy, it wasn't an issue. (They had other things on their mind LOL!). Only once did a guy ever comment on me being "a little different" and asked what happened and that was "the morning after".
Later in life when I was dating men who had been married or had a lot more sexual experience, I simply told them before hand that I had had surgery and was a little "different" down there. Usually that was sufficient and no more was said.
Would I have surgery to look more "normal"? Hell no! Everything works fine!!! I have great sensitivity, more than GGs based on discussions with my closest friends, and I sure wouldn't want to loose that! I orgasm easily and often and natural lubrication is almost always sufficient if not more than sufficient! I will never be identical to those born female and even if I was completely and utterly indistinguishable, I would always know I didn't start out that way so it would just be an exercise in vanity.
Generally men don't give a rip about the aesthetics of a woman's lower end, besides there is such a vast variety of shapes and sizes of labia's and clitoris's and there are labia minora's that are hidden and some that hang way out. Men generally just want in and that's the bottom line! I would really question the motives of anyone who would "clock" or make any kind of disparaging remarks to any kind of woman about something as sensitive as that. Obviously he wouldn't be interested in getting any so his motives are extremely suspect and he may in fact be dangerous!
@Jane, I agree on you about the damn FEAR of losing sensivity and orgasms with a revision, unfortunately
I could not find any story or publication or whatever, to understand whether this concern is founded or not.
As for the rest, everybody lives with her dysphoria and accepts her being different her own way...
one who has accepted and metabolized her problem, as you did perhaps, can also accept to tell, while
somebody else, like me, who always aimed the negated normality, simply can't. And that is true also for
who started this topic, it seems. Then the greatest issue for those who can't tell is: are my genitals realistic
enough or rather they can rise suspects ? This is the point. It took me 10 years or so before realizing
mine are a mess. Other results I found on the Web are finer instead, some much finer.
@Shantel: yes that's the rule more or less UNTIL you find the man who wants to finger or lick you or so on,
and there're MANY. Well perhaps they still think they are doing something fine and pleasurable to you, but
then starts the nightmare if you're not passable.
I do know what means hearing words like "you're a little different, you're strange,..." etc. Your heart breaks.