Am I the only one who is bothered by the terms "real life experience" or "real life test"?
* It doesn't feel like a test to me. Really just feels like living.
* It was introduced by Harry Benjamin as "proof" that we should have a physical sex change. I know some people find it helpful, but for others, seems like it's only there to please the gatekeepers.
* I'm almost halfway through mine. While it tells me whether I want to go on living as a woman full time (Yes, please!) it hasn't been the SLIGHTEST help in deciding whether I need SRS. That seems more a function of my relationship to my body than of how I'm living.
* It invalidates the experience of people for whom the need for social transition (i.e. living as their true gender) and the need to change their bodies feels completely separate.
I agree 100%
Yes, another agree 100%. Test of what? We don't make cis people "test" whether they can survive as their gender - or as adults! - so why this patronizing approach for us?
Yes, 100%.
Plus it's tantamount to a human rights violation when someone is forced to live RLE for a year without HRT as a pre cursor to receiving HRT, as appears to be the case in a number of countries. My shrink once floated the idea and I gave him a very dirty look and rebuke... he backed down pretty quickly.
Quote from: Ms Grace on November 30, 2013, 12:49:34 PM
Yes, 100%.
Plus it's tantamount to a human rights violation when someone is forced to live RLE for a year without HRT as a pre cursor to receiving HRT, as appears to be the case in a number of countries. My shrink once floated the idea and I gave him a very dirty look and rebuke... he backed down pretty quickly.
That is downright evil.
I also agree that RLE is a stupid idea that has long outlived its usefulness. I am pretty much opposed to any universal guidelines for treating so many different people with so many different situations.
Kia Ora Suzi,
When I transitioned, I did so without having to go through any RLE/RLT...The reason being I had no interest (at the time) in having genital surgery, plus financially it was out of my reach...
When my endo applied for government funded surgery on my behalf, I have been living full time for around 4 and half years (I started HRT in 1998-went full time in 2000 ie 24/7/365 and had surgery in 2005) , so Real Life Experience was of no importance...
I think back then,(well in NZ this seemed to be the case ) one was not really pressured into going full time, you saw a doctor who started you on a low dose of HRT before referred you to a psychiatrist who gave you the stamp of approval ( I know I'm not nuts, I've got a psych letter to prove it ;) ;D ) and that was it-in your own time and at your leisure...
However I personally feel that 'screening' potential genital surgery clients by a RLE/RLT period is important, after all one can't stick it back on once its been cut off and sliced up so to speak, but HRT should be made available prior to starting it...But then this is my personal opinion, I've come across a few trans-women who rushed into having surgery in Thailand, without really having any real life experience in the 'real' world, and have come to regret rushing into it...
Metta Zenda :)
I thought the Benjamin stuff was from the 50's - 60's... I mean... we're not required to do RLT before HRT anymore!! This stuff has evolved.
Benjamin was the guy who said that maybe this stuff is real, and not just a psychosis. He was the good guy... and his ideas made a lot of sense back when he had them.
It sucks that our sisters lives were so affected by the evolution in psychology and neuroscience... but I'm thankful those ideas were hashed out and gatekeeping is slowly disappearing.
Quote from: kabit on November 30, 2013, 08:23:42 PM
I thought the Benjamin stuff was from the 50's - 60's... I mean... we're not required to do RLT before HRT anymore!! This stuff has evolved.
Sadly not in some countries.
Quote from: Ms Grace on November 30, 2013, 08:38:22 PM
Sadly not in some countries.
:( Sorry to hear that. I thought the DSM was an international standard. I didn't realize it was an American standard.
Still... you can't blame a researcher from the 50's and 60's for the problems you have today. Modern transgender science is still not as good as it could be, but we're way, way beyond the initial "hey we can't just electroshock these people" ideas.
Quote from: Anatta on November 30, 2013, 08:10:43 PM
However I personally feel that 'screening' potential genital surgery clients by a RLE/RLT period is important, after all one can't stick it back on once its been cut off and sliced up so to speak
I agree it's a big step, and requires deliberation and knowledge.
My question is, how will RLE tell someone whether she will be more comfortable with a female bottom?
RLE is about living as a female, right? That tells you what roll you might want to play in society, but does it tell you what the shape of your body should be? If it did, why would there be non-op women living 100% as female, but perfectly willing to spend their life with the parts they were born with?
Likewise, if you didn't have RLE before SRS, for example, and then later realized that you don't want to live like a woman, wouldn't the option still be open to live as a male while having a female bottom? Aren't there hundreds of members of Susan's who do just that?
So I'm still struggling to understand: How will RLE help someone decide what shape her body should be?
You're struggling to understand something that actually doesn't make sense. And you're right, living as a woman isn't going to give any indication of whether one is going to cope with corrective surgery. There are some (I don't know the number/percentage) who have regretted their surgery - not because they weren't trans* but because the surgery created a separate level of dysphoria...they might have hated being a man and hated their penis with a passion but losing it through surgery was akin to losing an arm or leg and suddenly they felt "wrong". RLE wouldn't pick that up, not in a million years let alone two.
As for having a "female bottom", the HRT has already given me one of those - don't need surgery for that! ;) Genitals though, that's a different story! :D
Quote from: suzifrommd on December 01, 2013, 08:15:36 AM
So I'm still struggling to understand: How will RLE help someone decide what shape her body should be?
Kia Ora Suzi,
Sadly it won't/can't...However, it is in the most practical sense just to prepare the trans-person for role shift long term, 'psychologically' and can be liken to "Running the social gauntlet" if you survive it, then you're good to go-mentally you have proven that you can hold you own in society-which is a bonus and
one less obstacle in the way of becoming your true self...
When it comes to the RLE and genital surgery...Though not perfect, it's the only screening tool any caring and compassionate mental health professional has got to work with, and as we all know, sadly it's not foolproof and can at time in itself become a hindrance...Such is life ..."One [wo]man's meat is another [wo]man's poison"...
Metta Zenda :)
Transsexuals are rare to begin with. Transsexuals who wish to change their bodies but continue living in their birth gender are extremely rare. Consequently, most transsexuals who do want gender surgery are going to live in their expected gender.
So the goal of RLE is to help ensure that the patient is really sure of what they are doing, that taking this irreversible surgical step is the right thing to do. Before these checks were put in place, reports of post-operative regret were higher. While not perfect, these checks have reduced post-operative regret so are good in that sense.
The question I would ask then, is if we don't have RLE as a check to help ensure certainty, how can we help the patient be certain this is for them? Remember, every single person who has gotten surgery has done so voluntarily and believing that they needed and wanted it. Yet a small percentage of patients do end up regretting the decision.
I suspect the concern for medical practitioners is how do they keep that post-op regret issue as small as possible?
And honestly, I really don't have a good suggestion other than the RLE.
I hate this one-size-fits-all approach imposed upon us by people who are not even transgender. How do they know better than we do about how we should be dealt with once we get past the initial confusion and accept who we are? There are as many ways to be transgender as there are transgender people, yet this protocol persists. Some of us can simply wear a different set of clothing now and again do deal with it, and some of us will need the whole shebang either installed or removed.
I simply stopped dressing in guy clothes because I no longer felt I had to meet that expectation, not because of some requirement. I'm not ever going back to my old hormonal profile nor wardrobe. Can I just get my walking papers yesterday?
The problem with RLE is, if you are not yet passible, you probably won't have a very good experience. So you aren't really living as a women. And it can be dangerous. So what are you setting yourself up for? It's probably not going to be a wonderful life changing experience, and might involve a lot of challenges. For many it is a good thing. Some don't even care about passing (which I don't get), and then in that case why the need for RLE?
I understand that having surgery (and HRT) is serious, and mostly irreversible, but the whole idea that you should try and live full time, especially when you might need FFS to pass, is absurd. It's like throwing someone into the middle of the ocean that can't swim, as a test before they can take swimming lessons in a pool. It's just stupid.
I feel Harry Benjamin's ideas are way out of date, and so is the Standards Of Care, which never even discusses FFS. These people (WPATH) are out of touch with reality and shouldn't be telling people what to do. Many doctors and therapists feel the same way.
I'd love to live full time and present myself as female now. But at this stage I won't pass, no matter how great my legs are, ;) and that's not the experience I want. I'd like to go to the supermarket and not create a scene. lol Sorry, but I'm vain. Some people are lucky, in that they are already very female looking. Most are not.
But for myself, that day will only come when I can look at myself in a mirror and be happy with what I see. So that will mean HRT and FFS before going full time. Oh and the voice too. IMO, and for me, that's the only way it makes sense. I'm not setting myself up for disappointment by not passing, and I'm also not delusional in thinking I look fabulous. lol
Sorry for the rant! ;D
Raven the grumpy
The SOC doesn't say anything about RLE before HRT or even FFS. You can do them in any order.
Quote from: LordKAT on December 13, 2013, 12:19:34 AM
The SOC doesn't say anything about RLE before HRT or even FFS. You can do them in any order.
You are correct. I just read through the most recent version. :)
They do suggest 12 months of RLE before SRS.
Quote from: RavenMoon on December 12, 2013, 11:48:04 PM
The problem with RLE is, if you are not yet passible, you probably won't have a very good experience. So you aren't really living as a women. And it can be dangerous. So what are you setting yourself up for? It's probably not going to be a wonderful life changing experience, and might involve a lot of challenges.
Yes, kinda agree.
The only part I don't agree w/ is the not really living as a woman bit. Passing is not the definition of living as a female. Being female is the definition of being a female ;)
But the relation to RLE requirement I do agree with. For some, who do care a lot about being passable before starting this ridiculous RLE, it could be downright traumatizing. Not helpful at all.
Bottom line. RLE = totally bogus! If I try to imagine having to go through that in my own transition, basically add a whole slew of discomfort, fear, and anxiety that would not have needed to be there.
Informed consent is the future
hmmmm
I'm quite possibly not as qualified to reply to this as everyone else i havent begun my transition yet (still trying to find a decent doc/therapist) but the more i read about everything, the more i spot terms and phrases that 'bother' me, "Real Life Experience" is one that's directly tied to another "pass" or "passing", i understand that people want to "pass" as female or male. i get no one likes to be mistaken for the wrong gender but i think the term should be to blend... even Cys-Women and men don't "pass" for female or male 100% of the time, in my opinion physically androgynous people make up possibly 1/4 of the planets population or so, why do you think you see so many scrawny little guys getting tattoo's and piercings all over their face and body? they know they're built like 14 year old girls, and they're trying to "muscle up" their appearance a little because they're self conscious about it.
RLE and passing are both a bit silly to me personally, because i can technically walk out of the house all clean shaven with my hair in a pony-tail, a singlet and old bike shorts and feel like i'm walkin the town in girl-mode, just out for my afternoon stroll, getting my exercise like most women, i'll stop and buy dinner then i'll come home and do all the cleaning in the house, wash the dishes do my laundry, and my brothers laundry, exercise and go to bed i mean, does that all count as RLE or do i have to be wearing a skirt and on hormones while doing so before it's considered RLE by a psych lol
The ideal to me is to to be indistinguishable from your preferred sex emotionally, mentally and physically, not to pass some style or spoken exam you feel you need to take in front of every stranger. i live in a somewhat eclectic area of Australia (beaches, farms, cities, mountains, we've got the lot) I've noticed women are just as diverse if not MORE so than men are in their occupations, appearance, style, mannerisms, hobbies etc. i know women from SO MANY different fields of work its crazy;
hair dressers, optometrists, electricians, mechanics, police, ambulance workers, nurses/aged care, barristers/legal secretaries, horse trainers, like the list just goes on... and i wont even get into the hobbies list i'd be here all night, now for me personally that crowd wont be especially hard to "pass" or "blend" into after all who's going to question the 5'10" arty looking brunette when there's a 6'5" Maori policewoman with a voice like thunder standing nearby or a blonde painter hauling 10 liters up a 2 story ladder and telling the "dudes" down below how he's supe'd up her mazda lol
but that's just my view.... :)
Quote from: Jennygirl on December 13, 2013, 01:41:58 AM
Yes, kinda agree.
The only part I don't agree w/ is the not really living as a woman bit. Passing is not the definition of living as a female. Being female is the definition of being a female ;)
But the relation to RLE requirement I do agree with. For some, who do care a lot about being passable before starting this ridiculous RLE, it could be downright traumatizing. Not helpful at all.
Bottom line. RLE = totally bogus! If I try to imagine having to go through that in my own transition, basically add a whole slew of discomfort, fear, and anxiety that would not have needed to be there.
Informed consent is the future
That is the crux of the problem for me. What is the definition of informed consent and who makes that definition?
From many transgender peoples view it is 'I will make the decision' from many therapists (inclusive of all concerned in the process from client, psych, endo and surgeon) is can the client make that decision? In
my opinion I can make that decision. But to be honest I needed help and guidance.
I suppose the real question here is 'does a one size fits all' protocol work? If not what should be in place?
Yeah... it definitely bothers me. Because I've pretty much known that I wanted SRS since I was like 13 years old, and my conviction has never waned in regards to that. My bodily dysphoria is still very high in that regard, to the point where I feel like I'm not able to have a normal healthy relationship with my body as long as that obnoxious appendage is still down there. Whereas the social aspects, although they do bother me, have never been as bad for me in terms of dysphoria.
Honestly, the current setup feels backwards to me. Genitals are something that, in the grand scheme of life, mean NOTHING. Maybe three or four people during your entire lifetime will ever care what they are. Whereas your gender presentation is something that affects your life on such a deep and complete level that it permeates every single facet of your existence and will permanently change how you interact with the world forever.
I can't socially transition yet because I'm still not getting gendered female by anyone, so I don't feel like I can reasonably expect people to accept me as female while they're still very clearly seeing a male. But I can't have this surgery, something that I've been convicted about getting for my entire adult life, something that I feel like I can't function sexually on a basic level without, and something that I'd be totally fine still having had done even if for some unforeseeable reason I decide to not transition fully, because my countdown clock doesn't even start until that major life-changing switch that I want to make absolute sure I'm completely 100% ready for is already over. That really rubs me the wrong way that I have to do something that could potentially destroy my entire life if I don't do it right, just in order to be eligible for a freaking cosmetic procedure that would do absolutely nothing negative socially and its only affect would be to make me feel better about my own body.
I can understand having an HRT requirement for SRS, since a trial run with hormones usually quickly separates out the fantasy-only crowd. And I can definitely understand requiring letters from therapists saying that you're mentally sound and doing this for a reason that they deem appropriate, and that you're willing to accept full responsibility for the outcome. But the 1-year RLE requirement, to me at least, I only see as an unnecessary hindrance keeping a lot of people who really would benefit from it from getting it done, and keeping them in a body they hate even longer.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on December 13, 2013, 03:45:48 AM
Yeah... it definitely bothers me. Because I've pretty much known that I wanted SRS since I was like 13 years old, and my conviction has never waned in regards to that. My bodily dysphoria is still very high in that regard, to the point where I feel like I'm not able to have a normal healthy relationship with my body as long as that obnoxious appendage is still down there. Whereas the social aspects, although they do bother me, have never been as bad for me in terms of dysphoria.
Honestly, the current setup feels backwards to me. Genitals are something that, in the grand scheme of life, mean NOTHING. Maybe three or four people during your entire lifetime will ever care what they are. Whereas your gender presentation is something that affects your life on such a deep and complete level that it permeates every single facet of your existence and will permanently change how you interact with the world forever.
I can't socially transition yet because I'm still not getting gendered female by anyone, so I don't feel like I can reasonably expect people to accept me as female while they're still very clearly seeing a male. But I can't have this surgery, something that I've been convicted about getting for my entire adult life, something that I feel like I can't function sexually on a basic level without, and something that I'd be totally fine still having had done even if for some unforeseeable reason I decide to not transition fully, because my countdown clock doesn't even start until that major life-changing switch that I want to make absolute sure I'm completely 100% ready for is already over. That really rubs me the wrong way that I have to do something that could potentially destroy my entire life if I don't do it right, just in order to be eligible for a freaking cosmetic procedure that would do absolutely nothing negative socially and its only affect would be to make me feel better about my own body.
I can understand having an HRT requirement for SRS, since a trial run with hormones usually quickly separates out the fantasy-only crowd. And I can definitely understand requiring letters from therapists saying that you're mentally sound and doing this for a reason that they deem appropriate, and that you're willing to accept full responsibility for the outcome. But the 1-year RLE requirement, to me at least, I only see as an unnecessary hindrance keeping a lot of people who really would benefit from it from getting it done, and keeping them in a body they hate even longer.
I may be reading this wrong, and please correct me, how will GRS allow you to be accepted? And what difference would that make to you?
I'm pretty sure most informed consent doctors are going to want to hear from a therapist at some point, at least all the ones ive looked at do.
Quote from: Cindy on December 13, 2013, 04:13:48 AM
I may be reading this wrong, and please correct me, how will GRS allow you to be accepted? And what difference would that make to you?
I read it as GRS is more important to her than the social transition. RLE stands in the way.
Quote from: kabit on December 13, 2013, 04:33:57 AM
I read it as GRS is more important to her than the social transition. RLE stands in the way.
I hate talking without the OP opinion but I would question why - and that is where a therapist is/maybe important. I don't care if I pass or not, but I do not need GRS to validate that opinion. I'll have GRS/SRS/GCS as soon as I can.
Maybe there is a confusion in my mind here? It can easily happen! :laugh:
Maybe I'm in total agreement and didn't understand what was being said.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on December 13, 2013, 03:45:48 AM
Honestly, the current setup feels backwards to me. Genitals are something that, in the grand scheme of life, mean NOTHING. Maybe three or four people during your entire lifetime will ever care what they are.
I really like how you worded this.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on December 13, 2013, 03:45:48 AM
I can't socially transition yet because I'm still not getting gendered female by anyone, so I don't feel like I can reasonably expect people to accept me as female while they're still very clearly seeing a male.
Carrie, can challenge this statement? Obvious it feels true to you, but I know a lot of people who socially transition who do not pass as female (though everyone treats them as women now). The gendering of female is a
result of transition, not a prerequisite.
It may be that you are uncomfortable transitioning with your current level of passability. I'm just inviting you to consider that that has more to do with your level of comfort and readiness.
Quote from: Cindy on December 13, 2013, 02:13:40 AM
I suppose the real question here is 'does a one size fits all' protocol work? If not what should be in place?
Very well stated. Hard to answer.
For me, I have no problem with RLE, I just find it a needless exercise. It isn't helping me personally figure out whether SRS is right for me. Given that, it seems wasteful to ask every one to do it when at least one person I know (and a few others by the posts in this thread) are not finding that it serves it's intended purpose.
The ancients used to sacrifice to their gods for rain each spring. We no longer do that, since we know that rain comes from weather, not deities. It was a useless activity. Problem is the people with the power to require RLE aren't the people who actually pay the cost of going through it so they see not reason to reevaluate their procedure.
Would a one-year waiting period work? Probably a question for the surgeons, since RLE is really for them, because they need to know they're not hopelessly screwing someone up by operating.
Quote from: Jennygirl on December 13, 2013, 01:41:58 AM
The only part I don't agree w/ is the not really living as a woman bit. Passing is not the definition of living as a female. Being female is the definition of being a female ;)
True, but I meant the experience as to how other people see you. We all relate to being female, but how does the rest of the world treat us? That's what I meant. :)
Quote from: Cindy on December 13, 2013, 04:13:48 AM
I may be reading this wrong, and please correct me, how will GRS allow you to be accepted? And what difference would that make to you?
Exactly. No one you interact with on a day to day basis knows what you have down there, they see your face first.
I think GRS is the last step to be done. And the SOC says that too.
Quote from: Cindy on December 13, 2013, 04:13:48 AM
I may be reading this wrong, and please correct me, how will GRS allow you to be accepted? And what difference would that make to you?
Yup, you're definitely reading it wrong. Because I never said anything about GRS making me more accepted. I actually said the opposite, that I'm well aware that SRS is basically something that has zero effect whatsoever on your social life. What I did say is that I feel like I can't function SEXUALLY with my current anatomy, and that I have very high feelings of genital dysphoria, where my social dysphoria isn't as bad.
Quote from: suzifrommd on December 13, 2013, 07:13:33 AM
Carrie, can challenge this statement? Obvious it feels true to you, but I know a lot of people who socially transition who do not pass as female (though everyone treats them as women now). The gendering of female is a result of transition, not a prerequisite.
Yeah, I guess that's a personal thing. In my own mind, I don't feel like I can reasonably expect people to accept me as female if everyone is still very clearly gendering me male even when I'm wearing female clothes. I'm not saying that I'm going to wait until I pass to everyone all of the time before I do it, because then I'd probably never make it at all. But until I get gendered female by at least SOMEONE, so that I can know that I look at least reasonably female, I don't feel like I can do it yet. I'd like to pass to at least a few people first.
I agree that the so called RLE or test is arbitrary, capricious, unenforceable and out dated. I am one of those who is having a fantastic time transitioning, passable or not and, will not allow the tyranny of the nameless majority to decide my fate. We really are so very unique and the decision to have GRS is dependent on more variables than the mere passage of time. Where's the proof we have to show a surgeon that we have been out all year? Daily pictures in a dress? How would that work for someone who never leaves the house?
The gatekeeper thing feels like the intrusive nanny state. I accept that HRT or surgery is my responsibility to understand. I accept that living with my true identity expressed has real value and is helping me learn and understand my new place in the world. For me that is voluntary and I reject the formulaic concepts that once required that only the passable could apply. Today's dogma, tomorrow's dog ->-bleeped-<-. ;)
We are still dependent, to a large degree, on the surgeon or clinic policy or standards. I am grateful to be living in a progressive era when understanding is changing the rules and hopefully a few hearts along the way.
Quote from: suzifrommd on December 13, 2013, 07:13:33 AM
but I know a lot of people who socially transition who do not pass as female (though everyone treats them as women now).
"Everyone" being friends or strangers? Sometimes strangers are just polite, but they know someone is not female. If that's acceptable to the person, then that's fine. Also depending on where you live it can get you killed. That happened not to far from where I live recently.
Clearly we all have different ideas of what we want in our transition. I know I'm not the only one who wants to just blend in as a female without even thinking about he word "passing."
Transition means to cross from one state to another. Worrying about passing means you didn't finish that transition yet.
That doesn't mean I'm trying to be "stealth" either per se, but I have
zero desire to be seen as a man in women's clothing. So my goal is to transition and then never have to use the word transition again. ;D
This is what my friend Victoria Esher calls the "Ick Factor" (she wrote this after a conversation we had about my concerns about passing)
http://tg.victoriaescher.com/ick-factor-let-others-transition/
As with everything this is just one opinion. :)
Quote from: Tessa James on December 13, 2013, 12:34:07 PM
Where's the proof we have to show a surgeon that we have been out all year? Daily pictures in a dress? How would that work for someone who never leaves the house?
Or never wears dresses? I know at least one women that never wears dresses, and pretty much dresses like me. Or maybe I dress like her. lol
Very nice post by the way. You have a way with words. :)
Quote from: RavenMoon on December 13, 2013, 12:48:25 PM
"Everyone" being friends or strangers?
One friend reports that she "never has problems" with anybody misgendering her. I've heard others say the same thing.
Quote from: RavenMoon on December 13, 2013, 12:48:25 PM
Worrying about passing means you didn't finish that transition yet.
Would this mean that a woman who will never pass - someone who has huge hands for example - can't complete her transition?
I've been thinking about this a lot, and having looked at this thread I have a few thoughts on it...
- I think the RLE (with HRT) can potentially be helpful in the sense that, perhaps someone would be happy presenting as their "new" gender in public without having to have surgeries. They may enter the process believing they want the "whole shebang" and then come out of it realizing that they were happy keeping the parts they were born with. And if that's the case, more power to them I say.
- I'm also not convinced it's 100% about whether or not you will be happy in your "new" gender (as in, proof that you re truly male or female). Transition comes with a great deal of other challenges, social, but also emotional. I can honestly say that as much as I thought through the challenges of transition, there were some that I just didn't see coming until I started HRT and began actually...being physically in-between. That was a very hard stage, where I didn't know if people saw a man or a woman and I occasionally heard people asking. No amount of surgery would have helped with that, and some people may end up not being able to pass perfectly or near perfectly. That's a HUGE challenge and a huge emotional hurdle to overcome, should that be a person's reality. So the question was never about, could Caleb function as male, it was could Caleb function being seen in between? Could I have emotionally handled SRS if that ended up being my life? Could I have gotten on with life and been a healthy, functional member of society if I was seen as female (or as visibly trans) for the rest of my life? I can't answer that question. But I could only begin to have an inkling of how this would make me feel by living as male and being visibly (by my appearance, not by outing myself) trans.
Quote from: suzifrommd on December 13, 2013, 12:57:06 PM
One friend reports that she "never has problems" with anybody misgendering her. I've heard others say the same thing.
And that's wonderful. ;D
Also some people are more gender nonconforming than a transsexual. I'm a transsexual and make no excuses about it. I've dressed gender nonconforming most of my life, and want to go further than that now. And that's for how I see myself, and not how others see me, but how others see me is part of who we are. Life is confusing at times, no?
Quote
Would this mean that a woman who will never pass - someone who has huge hands for example - can't complete her transition?
I have kind of wide hands, but long fingers. I attribute that to playing guitar and bass since I was 11. The rest of me is small, so they look out of proportion. :-\
But look at this woman's hands. They look just like mine!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.raven-nevermore.com%2Fimages%2FIMG_0532.jpg&hash=52ebfeb269f753c5e846f9332411edd48a605a73)
(Yes, that made me wonder if she was trans, but I don't think so, and if she is she looks great.)
I think there's more to it than hands. Honesty the biggest thing seems to be the face. The thing that always makes me spot a trans lady is an overly prominent nose. And yes, some cis women have big noses, but it's different, and even they should do something about it. (can you tell I don't like my nose? lol)
I'll be the first person to say I've become rather opinionated as I got older. I don't mean to ruffle feathers, and I'm really very open minded. I'm a very sweet Scorpio. :laugh: I just think some people don't try hard enough (trans, cis, or otherwise). And it's usually them saying they don't care, or believing they don't need to, and no one will tell them otherwise. Sometimes giving constructive criticism is a good thing. If I was out in public and looking bad I want someone to tell me... PLEASE! This is why I stopped posting in the "Do I Pass" threads, because sometimes they really don't and no one will say so.
But this is just my opinion. ;D
Quote from: caleb. on December 13, 2013, 01:31:55 PM
I've been thinking about this a lot, and having looked at this thread I have a few thoughts on it...
- I think the RLE (with HRT) can potentially be helpful in the sense that, perhaps someone would be happy presenting as their "new" gender in public without having to have surgeries. They may enter the process believing they want the "whole shebang" and then come out of it realizing that they were happy keeping the parts they were born with. And if that's the case, more power to them I say.
Good post!
I want the whole shebang, but at this stage in my life don't care as much about the bottom part. I don't hate it, but I also don't really use it much anymore. lol An orchiectomy might be enough for me at first. As long as my clothes aren't lumpy I'm happy.
I care more about how people see me. I've always been that way. I don't leave the house on bad hair days lol (not true, but almost true) It's a personality flaw I guess.
I seriously put off my transition because I disliked growing older. I figured if I was unhappy as a middle aged man I'd me more unhappy as a middle aged woman. But I got a lot of encouragement from a good friend who is a trans woman, and we are almost the same age. She started her transition in her mid 40s. She said "do you want to be at the end of your life one day and realize you should have done it? Major fail!" That woke me up!
Quote- I'm also not convinced it's 100% about whether or not you will be happy in your "new" gender (as in, proof that you re truly male or female). Transition comes with a great deal of other challenges, social, but also emotional. I can honestly say that as much as I thought through the challenges of transition, there were some that I just didn't see coming until I started HRT and began actually...being physically in-between. That was a very hard stage, where I didn't know if people saw a man or a woman and I occasionally heard people asking. No amount of surgery would have helped with that, and some people may end up not being able to pass perfectly or near perfectly. That's a HUGE challenge and a huge emotional hurdle to overcome, should that be a person's reality. So the question was never about, could Caleb function as male, it was could Caleb function being seen in between? Could I have emotionally handled SRS if that ended up being my life? Could I have gotten on with life and been a healthy, functional member of society if I was seen as female (or as visibly trans) for the rest of my life? I can't answer that question. But I could only begin to have an inkling of how this would make me feel by living as male and being visibly (by my appearance, not by outing myself) trans.
I really fear the in-between stage. I want to start HRT as soon as I can, but realize I would be happier with some FFS (and hair removal of course), and I need to start saving up for that. It's extremely frustrating, and takes everything I have not to jump out the nearest window! But I've had gender dysphoria my whole life, and made it this far (barely) so a few more years won't kill me (knock on wood). I wish I didn't care about my appearance so much, but that's who I am. :'(
You are so right about challenges. We did not grow up as girls. It's a whole different culture, and they are often treated differently, and not always in a good way. My mother raised me as a gentleman, but some men are asses. You have to walk in someone's shoes.. or pumps in this case. ;) As an example of culture shock, I was married to an African-American woman, and have two bi-racial kids. Talk about people staring? Even to this day, I'll be on the bus with my daughter, and people look at us like we have two heads... so she's a little tan girl with a huge bushy afro and I have on purple nail polish... lol Also, I remember my ex telling me once in a shoe store that we were being followed to make sure she wasn't shop lifting! She worked on Wall Street for crying out loud. That made me see that people are often treated differently because of how they look. And I had no idea because I don't live their lives.
So I'm expecting a whole lot of new experiences as a woman. Both good and bad. Just buying clothes has a learning curve!
But I can't wait...
Hope my experiences help shed a little light on this for others. We all seem to have similar stores to tell. That's why I love it here. :)
RLE/RLT never really sat well in my head either I just cant get past "test" or "experience" to me that wording emphasizes that you are in some study program or your trying to reach a qualification and that its "just" a temporary state, it leaves/ left a bad taste in my mouth, I feel it needs some rewording/ reworking to be more current and up to date perhaps mixed in with the informed consent as well kinda a 50/50 partake. like instead of it being a test perhaps it coul0d be just "has been living for at least" etc if ya get what I mean by that. sorta basically a minimum requirement. idk this is just a spurt out of my head
I can understand that they want people to be sure that this is what they want before having surgery. But I honestly think if you went that far you meant it!
I don't know what the day-to-day life is like for most women, but I don't see how it matters. It only matters for my day-to-day life. And I'm already living that, except I have to live it as a man, even though that's not how I feel.
So how could living as your true gender be anything but liberating? I mean please, I'd do it tomorrow if I could.
Maybe this is all about avoiding lawsuits?
what bothers me most is like, the concept of RLE/RLT makes it seem like trans people aren't leading lives in accordance to their gender, like. if you are a woman, you are leading your day-to-day life as a woman! your experiences as a woman are not less legitimate because you're not cis, your health issues are women's issues, it's not you who's leading a "false life", it's the rest of the world who's falsely identifying you. now, for people for whom social dysphoria is a thing, that doesn't mean it's wrong to feel like you're presenting yourself in a way you feel is insincere or not reflective of who you truly are. but in my opinion that's not something that has to do with someone's feelings about their body.
so what frustrates me about a lot of this construction is this idea that a lot of psychological establishments promulgate that you have to be seen/want to be seen as conventionally feminine/masculine, have to be seen/want to be perceived as cis in society and "disappear", and generally have to adhere to the orthodoxy of a bunch of old cis dudes who CANNOT POSSIBLY IMAGINE what it is to live our lives, feel what we feel, and have the relationship to gender that we do, in order to be legitimate. so—there's nothing WRONG with having those wants/desires/needs, but to impose it as a blanket on everyone, and to withhold recognition of people's lives as "genuine" or "real" unless they follow those rules? that strikes me as absolutely cruel.
Some of us also have extreme body dysphoria. On more than one occasion when I was young, I thought about "cutting it off". My marriage was wracked by long intermittent periods of being unable to function sexually at all, because I was dysphoric that I have a penis not a vagina.
So, quite honestly, even if I was gendered male in public for the rest of my life, if I could have SRS, I would, because for me every day when I get out of the shower, or go to the bathroom, this is a constant reminder of what is wrong with me.
Lots of others don't have body dysphoria like I do. I understand and accept that. Honestly, I plan to do SRS first (especially if I can get insurance coverage for it), then FFS, then probably VFS. So while it's not a big deal to society, it's a big deal to me. :)
Even so, as I've mentioned, RLE was one way for the medical profession to reduce "regret" issues with SRS surgery. It's not a very good tool but it's the only tool they had. And yes, it's giving way to informed consent. I wonder if cases of regret will rise again the way they were before the WPATH SOC earlier versions were published?
Quote from: LizMarie on December 17, 2013, 11:08:37 AMEven so, as I've mentioned, RLE was one way for the medical profession to reduce "regret" issues with SRS surgery. It's not a very good tool but it's the only tool they had. And yes, it's giving way to informed consent. I wonder if cases of regret will rise again the way they were before the WPATH SOC earlier versions were published?
Exactly.
I don't know when they changed the SoC (obviously I had an old version, and just got the new version), so if it's been changed for a while now it will probably stay that way. Doctors of course, often do things their own way, and don't always follow it. So if they want to cover their ass, they might insist on RLE. Then you need to find a new doctor.
I'm glad you highlighted how we are all different. I also don't need RLE first. I know who I am after all these years. I just want to get out of this shell! And I've talked to other people my age that weren't as sure, so they did RLE for a year just to see how they liked it.
And for me it's more about other people's image of me matching my image of me. The way people treat you has a big impact on your day to day life. And sad but true, more attractive women are treated better. >:( That's why I don't care as much about SRS as I do FFS, and plus I never minded what I had, even though I'd prefer a vulva. ;) (such a cute word lol)
Quote from: LizMarie on December 17, 2013, 11:08:37 AM
Some of us also have extreme body dysphoria. On more than one occasion when I was young, I thought about "cutting it off". My marriage was wracked by long intermittent periods of being unable to function sexually at all, because I was dysphoric that I have a penis not a vagina.
So, quite honestly, even if I was gendered male in public for the rest of my life, if I could have SRS, I would, because for me every day when I get out of the shower, or go to the bathroom, this is a constant reminder of what is wrong with me.
Lots of others don't have body dysphoria like I do. I understand and accept that. Honestly, I plan to do SRS first (especially if I can get insurance coverage for it), then FFS, then probably VFS. So while it's not a big deal to society, it's a big deal to me. :)
Even so, as I've mentioned, RLE was one way for the medical profession to reduce "regret" issues with SRS surgery. It's not a very good tool but it's the only tool they had. And yes, it's giving way to informed consent. I wonder if cases of regret will rise again the way they were before the WPATH SOC earlier versions were published?
This is exactly why I am reserving my decision on GRS. In high school my body dysphoria was much worse... I also tried removing the offending parts... though I didn't do a very good job, thankfully!
Now, my social dysphoria is worse... and I have a wife I love. If we stick together, I will probably not end up doing any experimentation (i.e. dating of men or women). Maybe I'll still want GRS, maybe I won't. I'm pretty abivalent toward GRS while the social aspect causes me significant pain... If I do end up dating (especially men) I may be much more interested in GRS it's not because of the dating... and only partly about sex... but I also never felt right having sex as a man with a woman... the only time it worked was when I successfully imagined our positions reversed.
Quote from: kabit on December 17, 2013, 12:18:53 PMbut I also never felt right having sex as a man with a woman... the only time it worked was when I successfully imagined our positions reversed.
I always loved it, however, I tend to pick very sexually aggressive women. So a lot of times they were in charge. I liked it that way. ;D So we didn't stick to gender roles.
So there's another option.
Quote from: RavenMoon on December 17, 2013, 12:29:23 PM
I always loved it, however, I tend to pick very sexually aggressive women. So a lot of times they were in charge. I liked it that way. ;D So we didn't stick to gender roles.
So there's another option.
I don't believe it is...! ;) At least not for me in my current situation ;D
Quote from: LizMarie on December 17, 2013, 11:08:37 AM
My marriage was wracked by long intermittent periods of being unable to function sexually at all, because I was dysphoric that I have a penis not a vagina.
So, quite honestly, even if I was gendered male in public for the rest of my life, if I could have SRS, I would, because for me every day when I get out of the shower, or go to the bathroom, this is a constant reminder of what is wrong with me.
I think you just said exactly what I was trying to say back on top of page 2, only better. Those who were confused about what I was saying, there we go. That's the exact same way that I feel.
I don't like it because there are so many factors with transition and this just acts as gate-keeping for us. To standardize such a personal surgery for who can get it when I don't think does us good. I believe receiving our letters for surgery should be highly personalized on a person by person basis. Some people are ready a lot earlier than others are and some need to wait for years to get it. It does us a disservice by forcing us to go through certain standards just to receive such a life enhancing surgery.
Honestly if I could I would be getting my surgery this summer but because of all this I need to wait another year and a half from now because my RLE is starting on my trans birthday 3rd January, 2014. Some people should be able to receive it much sooner than others, I've known since the spring that this is the right path and I really wish I could have scheduled my surgery back during the summer for the following year.
Reading about old-school RLE as a teenager likely delayed my transitioning by fifteen years. Back then, I knew what I needed to do, but couldn't face the thought of being that exposed. It's a wretched system, serving only as a barrier to appropriate care. :-\
Quote from: Riley Skye on December 22, 2013, 03:29:10 PM
I don't like it because there are so many factors with transition and this just acts as gate-keeping for us. To standardize such a personal surgery for who can get it when I don't think does us good. I believe receiving our letters for surgery should be highly personalized on a person by person basis. Some people are ready a lot earlier than others are and some need to wait for years to get it. It does us a disservice by forcing us to go through certain standards just to receive such a life enhancing surgery.
The reasons for it was because it's pretty much irreversible surgery (assuming we are talking about SRS/GRS). There are people who have changed their minds afterwards. One person went from male to female and back to male again. :o
QuoteHonestly if I could I would be getting my surgery this summer but because of all this I need to wait another year and a half from now because my RLE is starting on my trans birthday 3rd January, 2014. Some people should be able to receive it much sooner than others, I've known since the spring that this is the right path and I really wish I could have scheduled my surgery back during the summer for the following year.
I'm not exactly sure how it's "life enhancing" surgery though. What part of your life will be enhanced?
Realistically, my quality of life will be
much better after FFS and possibly breast augmentation (if needed). Then people will react to me as they would any other female. Currently that would NEVER happen. I have no plans on setting myself up for that kind of unpleasant experience. :-\
No one knows what I have down there if I don't want them to know. lol I'll like to get an orchiectomy even if I don't have vaginoplasty.
I understand everyone's wants/needs are different, but if you can't pass, your day-to-day existence might not be a lot of fun, because the world is filled with closed minded (and sometimes dangerous) people. Having SRS won't magically fix anything, because no one knows you had it but you.
Just something to think about.
Quote from: RavenMoon on December 22, 2013, 05:52:04 PM
I'm not exactly sure how it's "life enhancing" surgery though. What part of your life will be enhanced?
For me, I hope to be more at peace with my body.
Quote from: RavenMoon on December 22, 2013, 05:52:04 PM
I understand everyone's wants/needs are different, but if you can't pass, your day-to-day existence might not be a lot of fun, because the world is filled with closed minded (and sometimes dangerous) people.
And yet I know many women who don't pass but are very happy with their transitions.
Quote from: Jennygirl on December 13, 2013, 01:41:58 AM
Yes, kinda agree.
The only part I don't agree w/ is the not really living as a woman bit. Passing is not the definition of living as a female. Being female is the definition of being a female ;)
But the relation to RLE requirement I do agree with. For some, who do care a lot about being passable before starting this ridiculous RLE, it could be downright traumatizing. Not helpful at all.
Bottom line. RLE = totally bogus! If I try to imagine having to go through that in my own transition, basically add a whole slew of discomfort, fear, and anxiety that would not have needed to be there.
Informed consent is the future
This is a tough one for me. I got a medical waiver for RLE. The waiver was in part because of certain medical issues and was justifiable on it's own. It was in part due to a total inability on my part to do RLE without looking the part (jennygirl is absolutely correct, it can be traumatizing). I totally panicked every time I went out because I didn't look like a woman. It was also in part because I really frightened everyone when I purchased a beautiful and very fast car so that I could guarantee death when I hit a concrete embankment going 170 mph. And I was/am serious.*
However, I think some experience walking the walk (or as close to RLE as possible) is a good thing. One year is arbitrary and there should be flexibility there. But the flexibility should be between the person needing SRS and the professionals and family in their life. Ultimately, a person's life is their own. The intent of RLE is to prevent someone from making a permanent and life altering mistake. However, if the requirement for the prevention of one life altering mistake moves someone into making a different and possibly even more permanent life altering mistake, it is self defeating.
The requirement for one year RLE prior to HRT is cruel and insane.
So, my plan is chemical castration in January to help with the medical stuff. There will one surgery in Feb. to partially deal with one of the other medical issues. FFS is scheduled for March 8. SRS should be in Nov. and will deal the other part of the medical as well as the mental. There is several months of something very close to RLE in there.
*My transition and medical issues are both very complicated and play off each other. They are also inseparable to a certain degree. It is a beautiful body and an ugly face that drives fear. It is the physical pain that drives the sense of futility. It is aberrant hormonal issues that drive depression. When all of this hits simultaneously, continuing to desire to live becomes difficult. Sometimes, one just needs hope. And until recently, there really wasn't much. Now, there is at least some. It is better, in all areas.
Hugs to all,
Jen
Quote from: JLT1 on December 22, 2013, 10:59:16 PMIt was in part due to a total inability on my part to do RLE without looking the part (jennygirl is absolutely correct, it can be traumatizing). I totally panicked every time I went out because I didn't look like a woman...
It is a beautiful body and an ugly face that drives fear.
This is my exact feelings on this. And there is a big different between being a not so attractive woman, and looking like a man in a dress. I could
maybe handle the being the former, but have no interest in being the latter.
So I'm not rushing anything. I'll do it when I'm ready to do it the way I want. :)
And best of luck to you with your surgeries!
Jen,
I haven't been active here for some times and I have missed great news. Congratulations on your FFS and SRS dates. That is great news and a huge step forward into the womanhood. I think that Dr Z is a great choice and I wish you a very successful surgery.
Hugs,
Anna
ugh YES. Yes yes and yes.
I'll soon be dealing with a 'hormone readiness assessment', which is as awful as it sounds. So far I've convinced them that, yup, I am capable of making my own decisions by repeatedly bringing up the fact that I bind and wear a packer. Because that is definitely how you weed out the fakers.
Also, I don't understand how I'm supposed to go full time without hormones. For those of us without degrees, at least in my industry / city, that would mean losing our job. So all this RLE talk is garbage.
/rant
sorry to comment on a post that has gone a bit dead but I couldn't help it.
I had to wait 8 months for hormones whilst waiting for my legal permission slip. Despite the fact that I was fully socially transitioned and had been for some time, at one point my psych said "I think this is a good thing because it allows you to be really certain in your decision." I could've punched the man square in his face were I not constantly having to constantly prove I was emotionally stable.
The funny thing is I don't know how many times I have been told testosterone will make me aggressive by these people ::)
Quote from: swan on December 23, 2013, 08:30:38 PM
Jen,
I haven't been active here for some times and I have missed great news. Congratulations on your FFS and SRS dates. That is great news and a huge step forward into the womanhood. I think that Dr Z is a great choice and I wish you a very successful surgery.
Hugs,
Anna
Swan,
Thank you. I'm excited and terrified at the same time. Being beautiful would be wonderful. Heck, average would be wonderful. Passing is the goal.
Hugs,
Jen
Quote from: suzifrommd on December 22, 2013, 06:15:09 PM
And yet I know many women who don't pass but are very happy with their transitions.
Different strokes for different folks. I know some people for whom that is true. I know others for whom, if they could not pass as their target gender, they would not transition at all. Heavens, for me a big part of my issues was that I never fully mastered passing as a guy and fitting into that scene.
I think it's another case of different strokes for different folks. :). Everyone's goal and reason for transitioning differs.
I think that my issue with "Real Life Experience" is that they are trying to apply a one size fits all definition to something that can't be defined. No two people's (cis or trans) life experiences are the same. How does one define what qualifies as "Real Life Experience"?
I also realize that many medical treatments such as hormones or surgery are not easily reversed if they are able to be reversed at all. While I am all for the informed consent model of treatment, there does need to be some sort of measure in place to ensure that the patient understands what they are getting themselves into and if the treatments will actually help. There are many situations where we find that the true underlying issue is not what we initially thought it was.
There is an extremely delicate balance between responsible treatment and gate keeping. The first thing a medical doctor is taught in medical school is "do no harm". I would think that it has got to be difficult for a medical professional to decide what is more harmful... off label usage of medications, or allowing a person to live in a body they hate. While I am ecstatic that I have a caring and sympathetic doctor that is willing to help me, I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.
I don't really know about other people......everyone's transition is different.......
But I did "RLE" for well over a year before hormones....without a doctor or therapist's recommendation, and without knowing there was a word for it......I just got fed up, and started living as a woman one day......eventually I just realized that getting on hormones made sense and was more financially feasible and worthwhile.....
in the end, I'm glad I did.....I was a lot more prepared to handle everything for having spent that time as a woman before making permanent physical changes.....but, as I've come to find out, I'm pretty atypical.
Anyway just my two cents....
Quote from: Oriah on January 31, 2014, 10:30:29 PM
but, as I've come to find out, I'm pretty atypical.
Oriah,
You bring a different and much needed view to this forum. That is special. Thank you for being here and posting.
Hugs,
Jen
Quote from: KabitTarah on November 30, 2013, 08:23:42 PM
I thought the Benjamin stuff was from the 50's - 60's... I mean... we're not required to do RLT before HRT anymore!! This stuff has evolved.
Benjamin was the guy who said that maybe this stuff is real, and not just a psychosis. He was the good guy... and his ideas made a lot of sense back when he had them.
It sucks that our sisters lives were so affected by the evolution in psychology and neuroscience... but I'm thankful those ideas were hashed out and gatekeeping is slowly disappearing.
RLE seems to be a relic from a prior period, back when this was viewed as a psychosis. It's generally accepted to be a natural normal condition now, so why the need for psychologist letters and RLE? The reason it doesn't exist for FFS is because FFS came after this mindset. You can have surgery on your genitals for practically any reason with no approval, except when to change it to the other sex organ. You can essentially have plastic surgeons do anything except sex change. RLE prior to passing is like having people walk in public naked to determine if they really need that new suit or dress. It can be humiliating.
Quote from: Oriah on January 31, 2014, 10:30:29 PMBut I did "RLE" for well over a year before hormones....without a doctor or therapist's recommendation, and without knowing there was a word for it......I just got fed up, and started living as a woman one day......eventually I just realized that getting on hormones made sense and was more financially feasible and worthwhile.....
It's all a matter if you can pull it off or not, pre anything (HRT, FFS, etc).
I can't, at least not in a way I would be comfortable with or find acceptable. When I'm ready, I will. :)
Quote from: Ahn A. Sabbatical on February 01, 2014, 12:45:12 AMRLE prior to passing is like having people walk in public naked to determine if they really need that new suit or dress. It can be humiliating.
Exactly! ;D
I really struggle with this one, I have fought for 50 years to be perceived as a boy and lost, and finally realized that it is ok for me to feel and acknowledge that I am female, well me and some guy at a gate that i was not ready to go through.. I do believe that the process will give people a chance to explore how the impacts of transitioning will impact their lives. I do believe that not everyone waits until st peter sends them back to decide that they need to change. so it stands to reason that given time to explore makes since so that people do not make changes that can not be undone. I do have an issue with fixed time type markers i hate to give up another year of my life but in the same breath would give it all before turning back so no sweat. not like part of this process is fast anyways lol
xoxoxo
Jerri
I have always wondered about this. I was treated as a guy most of the time, until I actually did something about the female body.
I haven't read through all the replies in the thread (It's long!). But, throwing out my pair of pennies.
My understanding of how things work, is that someone, presenting totally as a man, could walk into a surgeons office, and get FFS, BA, and VFS, without having gone through any form of gatekeeping whatsoever. No shrinks. No RLE. Nothing. All it requires is money.
Now, it seems to me, that those things, being publically presentable, are waaaaay more likely to cause psychological issues and/or regret for someone who is "not really sure about changing gender."
It also seems to me, that most guys wont get their penis lopped off on a whim. Sure, perhaps there are a handful of people that regret GRS. But, given ANY choice there will ALWAYS be a handful of people who regret making the choice they made. And given that, again, most guys want nothing more than to keep their penis above all else, I can't see getting rid of the RLE increasing the number of people who regret GRS.
And also, because what's in my pants is private, and only I chose who gets to see it, if I should regret GRS then only I have to deal with it. Whereas all the other surgeries, being very prominently public, effect not only me but everyone else around me should I regret it. So, I don't get it. Why is getting a boob job and having my voice surgically feminized without RLE perfectly okay, but I have to wait a very dysphoric year to get a vagina?
Granted in my case it's a pointless argument. For me finances dictate when I can get it done, not the SoC - it'll be waaaaaay longer than a year for me to save up that kind of money. Unless I can rob a bank and somehow evade getting caught until after surgery ;D
Quote from: missadventure on February 01, 2014, 09:43:27 PM
I haven't read through all the replies in the thread (It's long!). But, throwing out my pair of pennies.
My understanding of how things work, is that someone, presenting totally as a man, could walk into a surgeons office, and get FFS, BA, and VFS, without having gone through any form of gatekeeping whatsoever. No shrinks. No RLE. Nothing. All it requires is money.
Now, it seems to me, that those things, being publicly presentable, are waaaaay more likely to cause psychological issues and/or regret for someone who is "not really sure about changing gender."
I think it is about the regret part, and maybe also so the doctors don't get sued?
But making someone go full time without electrolysis, FFS, BA, etc., can be cruel and humiliating! Tell a male doctor or therapist to dress up as a woman for a week and then see how they feel about it. ;)
QuoteUnless I can rob a bank and somehow evade getting caught until after surgery ;D
There's a movie from 1975 about robbing a bank to fund a sex change staring Al Pacino. ;)
I think the worst thing about being forced into RLE before passing is how those that haven't ever looked into all of this have no hope of understanding why. Its just almost certainly going to make us suffer even more, which is just plain cruel and wrong.
I've always thought RLE or RLT would be pretty hard to define. Women and Men present themselves in many different kinds of ways. Not everyone's a Marilyn Monroe and John Wayne... Before I started transitioning there were plenty of women that were more masculine than me. Personally I'm a bit of a barbie now and more feminine than many women, but I'm not sure for others how RLE might be defined. Does that mean they have to wear makeup? Have long hair? Wear skirts? What about the millions of women who don't do any of those things? If anything letters of recommendation confirming the validity of the patient's need and mental health to have the correct genetalia should trump whatever RLE means.
I read some of the posts and with most I agree. But why do we need to have this conversation and others like it? Because we live in a cruel world? No, because the idiots prevail! Yes yes! The gender police are on the move constantly scrutinizing us and our every move. it is nerve wrecking, annoying, frustrating and it makes us anxious, depressed, unsure of ourselves.
Some Japanese wisdom from my grandfather....
Hatori: "Listen my child, when you face opposition and great adversity for nothing more than who you are, you are on the right path. Going against the grain, out of the norm, is true courage, and is what a leader does. A follower goes with the grain and eventually falls down the waterfall into failure."
I think all of us do exceptionally well in spite of what is going on around us and in our lives. We are beautiful because we say we are. I don't go by the world standards of beauty because I look nothing like them! (Them ref. to sstandard black women or Japanese women or any other kind of woman some ding bat wants to compare me to) I look like me!I like me! I love me! The hell with anyone who has a problem with me!
Remember this my brothers and sisters" You are you, this will not change, how you choose to present yourself to the world can change on a whim! Therefore, live without fear, be you, be proud, have indomitable spirit, self integrity, respect, and loyalty!
Peace and love!