Right. Before I start... I am sorry if there are typos as I am on my phone hah.
Ok so first of all... To me, I go through transition to live a normal life as a guy. I think this is the case for everyone on here. But ideally, for me, no one would know... Not even an SO... Most people here I have seen post disclose to SOs... I was just wondering your opinion on lying to your SO.
Say you met them after having been on T and after having bottom and top surgery. Would you ever consider just making something up instead of saying "By the way... I am actually trans!"? Would you consider saying something like "I had a birth defect... Underdevelopped penis. So they had to reconstruct it." ? Lol. That wouldn't even be so much of a lie if you think about it...
I know many people think it is their partner's right to know. But I mean... Regular people do not tell their partners their entire medical history... Do they?!
That's pretty much exactly what I say. I do not consider it lying and I do not consider myself trans. I guess it's all about perspective.
And I think it's ridiculous that people feel like they have to disclose anything to their SO and especially to a casual partner. The only exception in my opinion would be HIV status or STI status. But why the heck do I need to give someone a run down of my genitals?
Bottom line for me is that it's my choice. If a woman has had an abortion should she explain it to her partner ? Is she LYING if she doesn't? Like I said, perspective.
I don't think it is lying. I'd have to tell a partner at this point as I am pre-surgery, but, afterwards I have thought there is not much need to tell someone.
Please excuse me for jumping in on this conversation.
In a perfect world everybody would be open minded and accepting, but this if far from a perfect world.
Lets say you are a cis male and meet this wonderful woman who just happens to be post op. But she never tells you this. You two get married and decide to start a family. She wants to adopt a chid and you want to have her give birth to you own child. She tells you she can't get pregnant but does not say why.
What would happen if you suggest going to a clinic to find out why she can't carry your baby? Then the doctor comes out and tells you the truth?
How would that make you feel? Would you trust her if she did not tell you why?
With holding such important information like this; to me is no different than telling a lie. A loving relationship has to be built on trust. Without trust there is nothing. And trust all starts with open conmunication.
Yes this is far fetched and would most likely never get this far without her breaking down and telling you the truth.
Yes I 100% get what you are saying, Bethany.
I would tell them beforehand though, that I am infertile, (Best term I can think of?) because I do believe that it is in their right to know before we would get into anything serious like marriage, whether or not we would be able to have biological children together.
As for whether or not I would feel lied to... I personally wouldn't, but of course, that is because I get the whole trans thing. My answer might or might not have been different had I been cis, I can't say for sure because I'm not. :P
For me it is less about having them accept me for it or not. It is more about me hoping I can one day just put this behind me and live my life like anyone else. I mean I know I will always be trans, there is nothing I can do about that, nor would I want to change it... After all it has made me who I am, and I must say I really do like who I am!
I think I would struggle to be with someone who, while they may be accepting, knew of my past. Maybe I am just afraid of always having them see me as a trans guy and not just a guy, even though they wouldn't say so, but I'm not sure... This is why I am just curious about what others think. Different opinions usually give you different perspective about something. :D
And chuck, that is kind of how I see it right now too... Of course any STD would have to be disclosed because it could potentially put your partner at risk.
Quote from: randomdude5 on December 05, 2013, 02:14:55 AM
Yes I 100% get what you are saying, Bethany.
I would tell them beforehand though, that I am infertile, (Best term I can think of?) because I do believe that it is in their right to know before we would get into anything serious like marriage, whether or not we would be able to have biological children together.
As for whether or not I would feel lied to... I personally wouldn't, but of course, that is because I get the whole trans thing. My answer might or might not have been different had I been cis, I can't say for sure because I'm not. :P
For me it is less about having them accept me for it or not. It is more about me hoping I can one day just put this behind me and live my life like anyone else. I mean I know I will always be trans, there is nothing I can do about that, nor would I want to change it... After all it has made me who I am, and I must say I really do like who I am!
I think I would struggle to be with someone who, while they may be accepting, knew of my past. Maybe I am just afraid of always having them see me as a trans guy and not just a guy, even though they wouldn't say so, but I'm not sure... This is why I am just curious about what others think. Different opinions usually give you different perspective about something. :D
And chuck, that is kind of how I see it right now too... Of course any STD would have to be disclosed because it could potentially put your partner at risk.
I agree people should be loved for who they are not what they are. I get that because I am not a cis gender person. I want to be loved, liked, and respected for the person I am; and not because of the trans label that society placed upon me. Again that would be my perfect world; but this world does not think like that for the most part.
Now how would you answer these two questions if you were asked them. "What happend? Why are you infertial?"
Quote from: Bethany Dawn on December 05, 2013, 02:37:11 AM
I agree people should be loved for who they are not what they are. I get that because I am not a cis gender person. I want to be loved, liked, and respected for the person I am; and not because of the trans label that society placed upon me. Again that would be my perfect world; but this world does not think like that for the most part.
Now how would you answer these two questions if you were asked them. "What happend? Why are you infertial?"
"That's just how I was born." "there was a problem with my testicles" "I never developed testicles correctly" "My hormones made me infertile"
I'd disclose my past.. If I didn't and my partner found out, there's grounds for a very painful divorce.. And that ignores the fact that I'm an honest person..
And in this digital age, stealth doesn't cost much to strip away.. Nor would it be hard..
Quote from: randomdude5 on December 05, 2013, 12:59:07 AM
I know many people think it is their partner's right to know. But I mean... Regular people do not tell their partners their entire medical history... Do they?!
You say that as if being trans isn't a big deal, it is. In some perfect, openminded world where everyone's accepting and trans people can have babies and whatever else, maybe it wouldn't be, but in this world? Yes, it is. Why do you need a serious relationship where you can't be honest with your partner? If you need to have such a big secret between the two of you to keep you together, then why is it worth it?
This is an easy topic for me -
It's no one's business. I don't need to tell anyone anything I don't feel like disclosing. If I were able to pass as a genetic male with all the right equipment, that's all they need to know. Questions? 'I was born with birth defects that left me infertile as a man and I had to have reconstructive surgery.'
If someone decided they want children after I'd married them? I'd leave them. I 100% refuse to have genetic children because I believe it's morally wrong to constantly breed like rabbits when there are already children out there that need loving homes. Anyone who'd ignore them lacks compassion and I don't want anything to do with someone like that. I'd leave them in a heart beat.
I think it just depends on how much you care about the person. I agree that there's no need to tell someone if you're only in a casual relationship with them and it may not even be a good idea to but I also wouldn't claim that a casual relationship is the same as having a significant other.
If you actually have a significant other and love that person you'll probably find that eventually you want to share who you are with them so that they can not only be a part of your life but a part of who you are as well. That being said, you don't have to rush into telling someone about your history. It's better to gauge how the person may react after finding out. I think it would become a huge burden to always hide or deny it and if they find out from someone else later they'll most likely feel betrayed, breaking the trust in the relationship. Plus why would you want to hide it and have a significant relationship with someone who may not completely accept you if they found out what you are or were?
You can go through life saying you had a birth defect for as long as you want but if you actually believe that all you had was a birth defect then you're probably in denial yourself. Your birth defect was having a body that was the wrong gender which makes you transgender. There's no getting around that. Instead of completely denying it, you can look at it as having been transgender if you've completed your transition.
I think it would be a very difficult thing to cover up permanently and it would be best to tell before they find out from someone else, but I agree there's no reason someone if it's just a casual relationship.
I think I understand the OP and IMO (and current situation) I have not told my BF about me. I currently have birth defects and the dr I see told me (without knowing) that for me to attempt to have children would be a bad idea, and no he isn't a doctor who has seen down there its just a circumstance of my defect and disease. I know this is a greatly conflictual argument but to be honest its not because I feel if I told him he would leave me (I don't think he would) its because its something I mentally need, that saying all I ever wanted is a normal relationship and to leave this defect behind me, as it sits now I am happier than I have ever been. I feel and this is purely on me that is I told him, and he stayed with me I wouldn't be able to get the thought that he would now see me as less than what I feel I am even though he may never admit it, it would be in my head that he had this thought in his head. I know that because of this makes me a bit insecure, but what is this really if all it does and make me happy and no harm is done ??? I applaud those who are out and proud, bur for me all I want/ever wanted is a normal life, to be done with the trans problem and up till this year I hadn't had it. So Randomdude I get it
Quote from: randomroads on December 05, 2013, 07:11:25 AM
I 100% refuse to have genetic children
That's actually something that is true for me as well - I'd never want to get a woman pregnant even if I was able to. I don't think I'd leave someone for wanting her own kids, but...I'd really like to be with someone who would prefer adoption as well.
I think I would feel incredibly hurt and betrayed if this issue came out accidentally. I'd take it personally: if my love has to hide such a significant chapter of her life from me, I must haven't done enough to earn her trust.
I honestly feel that lying to your significant other about something like that (I transitioned) is wrong. If its someone that you love, truly, you're honest. It's a basic curtesy. I would never lie about something like transition even if it meant that we separated. It's not up to you to decide how worthy your partner is of knowing you. If you think it is, the I don't think you understand what a long term relationship or marriage really mean.
In my husbands opinion as a long term spouse, lying about something like that is "a deal breaker. If someone doesn't consider their partner worthy of knowing the truth, maybe they aren't mature enough to be in any relationship."
Saying you were a good football player is one thing, but lying about a huge portion of your life experiences negates everything about who you are as a person. What happens if they want to see pictures of you in the past? Are you going to cut out your entire family? Why punish everyone because of transition?
Also, I don't care how good the surgeries get, it's never going to be authentic. Frankly? What we have now is a hell of a lot better than even five years ago. Does it pass completely? No. It looks good but it doesn't look or function like a natal penis. What happens when you have to replace the erection rods? What all the scars that all surgeries leave? What about your hormones? Are you going to do your shots in the woods?
Point is your partner will find out, and it will hurt them. Transition will never go away. You don't have XY DNA, and you never will. I'm not saying I negates being a man mentally, but it certainly affects you for the rest of your life.
I'm sorry for anyone who takes it personally, but that's just life. If you care about someone as a person, you are willing to be honest and deal with heartache. You don't have to tell on the first date, but I think not disclosing early is a recipe for disaster.
Lets try one more time (dverytine I reply it wipes my post clean and tries to make me start a new topic). .
Heres my post again in a nutshell:
- its easy to find anything out nowadays and people are curious. Saying "I have a birth defect, now shut up woman you ha e no business asking" isn't going to get a SO to not be curious. She'll type in "T shots, penis scar, chest scar" in google and will eventually come across an ftm site.
- Mom dies, you and SO go to clean out the house and SO find old photo album? Sister Sally let's it slip at Christmas after too much wine? Unless you're COMPLETELY cut off from your old life, it will come up at some point.
_Omissions and misrepresentations are often viewed as lies. Lies break down trust. Trust is need for a long term relationship. My husband told me a GIANT lie about his past, I discovered the truth on Facebook, now I don't trust anything he says and basically don't know him anymore. We're separated.
-Casual relationships are one thing, long-term is another. How would you feel if you discovered your wife lied about something? You have 2 kids, married 10 years, then discover she only married you for a green card, or that she survived a genocide as a child in war-torn country but didn't confide in you because she thought a dumb American wouldn't understand? You'd have questions, yiu'd wonder what else she felt you wouldn't get and didn't tell you, your feelings would be hurt. Just try to imagine something that woul d make you question your faith in someone you thought you knew, how would you feel?
Marriage or long-term relationships are supposed to be a union of two souls. You don't have that with secrets and deceipt.
I don't know if I consider it lying. lying for me is telling straightout "no im not transgender I always been cis"
not disclose that your trans just because it never really turns into a topic is just... well being stealth I guess..
when that said I don't think I would live in a relationship stealth,
I dont feel everyone need to know about being trans but I think it something a partner should know if you are serious about it. I never tried having a partner who didn't knew but I tried having a friend for a long period who didn't knew and it started to bug me because I felt there where things I couldn't tell her about but I somehow wanted to share. ex I couldn't tell her why I had the scars on my back from binding and it annoyed me even when I dont think she thought twice about it. I think as more I alow people into my life, as more can I get a deep connection with them, specially when I do not need to worry about them finding out out of sudden.
if people already know I also know how they would/have reacted and its a concern less.
Another far fetched (not really) hypothetical question. You don't disclose, and you're involved in a serious car crash. It happens every day. The emergency room doctors know nothing about your decision to conceal your past and merely communicate the truth as they see it to your SO. See the problem? Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on December 05, 2013, 03:55:09 AM
You say that as if being trans isn't a big deal, it is. In some perfect, openminded world where everyone's accepting and trans people can have babies and whatever else, maybe it wouldn't be, but in this world? Yes, it is. Why do you need a serious relationship where you can't be honest with your partner? If you need to have such a big secret between the two of you to keep you together, then why is it worth it?
If I have the need to seek validation about my past/share every detail of my past with my partner to keep us together then why is it worth it?
I think this is where I disagree - I don't think its some big secret. It's my private crap - I don't want to know the sordid details of every penis that has been in my girlfriends mouth and I do not feel like it's some dramatic secret. I do not see my gender as some big deal. I am a man, my genitals were misconfigured at birth, they re fixed. Why should it be some big thing? I guess if being 'trans' is a big part of someone's life, then it feels like they are living a lie to not disclose. For me, the shape of my genitals at birth is a small part of my past. I disclose the following: I have a medical condition that affected my genitals. and usually if its someone serious I tell them I use hormones because of an imbalance, just in case they see a bunch of needles.
I think its ridiculous to even call it lying. BRB let me frickin break out every damn detail of my past so that I am 'honest' "hey babe, just though you should know that I digitally penetrated a girl in my highschool bathroom" "just thought I should tell you since I don't want to withhold the truth"
I guess if I saw myself as something other than a man, I would feel like I was lying by not explaining the detailed of my genitals. What is wrong with "I would rather not discuss it, ever" Type in all the google search terms you want, doesn't mean you have discovered jack squat.
I just think it's a ridiculous question. I think it's fine for someone to share there medical history, and I find it sad that while I accept someone's choice to talk about it, the word liar is thrown out for those who choose not to share the exact number of pubes in their butt crack.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 05, 2013, 09:32:49 AM
Another far fetched (not really) hypothetical question. You don't disclose, and you're involved in a serious car crash. It happens every day. The emergency room doctors know nothing about your decision to conceal your past and merely communicate the truth as they see it to your SO. See the problem? Hugs, Devlyn
As someone who has been in that exact same scenario let me tell you what happened -
Doctor "you will be catheterized"
me "oh, uh my penis is a bit different"
Doctor "okay" * looks at my genitals
Doctor "oh you have a micropenis" "and whats this [referring to me phalloplasty] a transplant?"
Me "yep"
Doctor "okay we will use the small catheter then"
*jams catheter into my penis
Girfriend "Be careful with his micropenis - it's small but powerful" girlfriend giggles and leaves the room
See the not problem?
This is very controversial subject, and while I respect everyone's opinions I still have to say I wouldn't tell someone, its been brought up about not having trust, but IMO its not always about trust, I don't really want to get into about my past unless because its painful and complicated, their isn't picture's of me as a child. my life really began when I hit 21 which was when I transitioned. let me just say before I transitioned it was bad enough that my parents want me to forget it and live my life and they are on board in fact its now at a point we don't talk about it other than it was a tough time in my life and I got through it.
back again on opinions I respect everyone's opinion however if someone doesn't have the same opinion it should be respected equally because there can be more to it than just not wanting to tell because of it and it alone.
I'm kinda at loss for words at the moment all I can say is I am who I am as I always have been, if I cant have the normality I have always wished for than I would rather be dead and dust in the wind, as I said before just having the thought that my bf may think of be differently but not saying anything is enough for me to be unable to continue forward I wouldn't be able to get past it, and ultimately I would prob break it off just because I would have that thought in my head.
please don't be judgmental, we get enough of that already as it is that we don't need it from each other.
I had told my now ex-girlfriend on our third date. We were together just about ten years before other issues broke us up.
She was very accepting, and in fact she bought me my first pair of panties for a birthday gift. She allowed me to dress as long as we were not going out. We would paint each others nails.
We remain friends to this day we just can not be a couple any longer and it's not because I am transitioning. She is very supportive of that. We actually talk more now then we did when we were a couple.
Nothing good can come out of keeping this hidden from someone you supposedly love.
And if they can not accept you for who you are; then they truly are not deserving of your love.
This of course is my opinion.
Quote from: Bethany Dawn on December 05, 2013, 11:53:37 AM
I had told my now ex-girlfriend on our third date. We were together just about ten years before other issues broke us up.
She was very accepting, and in fact she bought me my first pair of panties for a birthday gift. She allowed me to dress as long as we were not going out. We would paint each others nails.
We remain friends to this day we just can not be a couple any longer and it's not because I am transitioning. She is very supportive of that. We actually talk more now then we did when we were a couple.
Nothing good can come out of keeping this hidden from someone you supposedly love.
And if they can not accept you for who you are; then they truly are not deserving of your love.
You are not first person to say this so its not personal - but how silly to suggest that you don't love someone because you choose not to share something with them. Good grief.
also
Who I am is a guy who doesn't talk about the exact details of genitals and their past appearance. So if someone cant accept me for that, then yeah they are not deserving of my love.
No need to get upset anyone, the OP asked for opinions, and opinions were given.
If I seemed disrespectful in my post, I apologize. As someone who was given flat out lies as well as omissions/misrepresentations in a relationship I know that as a SO to someone who was trans and didn't tell me, I'd be pretty pissed off and hurt.
It all depends on you, how you feel, and deal with life. If being stealth works in your relationship, cool, go for it if that's what you want. :)
Quote from: LearnedHand on December 05, 2013, 12:16:28 PM
No need to get upset anyone, the OP asked for opinions, and opinions were given.
If I seemed disrespectful in my post, I apologize. As someone who was given flat out lies as well as omissions/misrepresentations in a relationship I know that as a SO to someone who was trans and didn't tell me, I'd be pretty pissed off and hurt.
It all depends on you, how you feel, and deal with life. If being stealth works in your relationship, cool, go for it if that's what you want. :)
agreed
I was pretty wound up for a few minutes, so I took a little break from the topic. But yeah, bottom line is opinions are shared and in the end we do what works best for us.
Quote from: chuck on December 05, 2013, 11:47:26 AM
As someone who has been in that exact same scenario let me tell you what happened -
Doctor "you will be catheterized"
me "oh, uh my penis is a bit different"
Doctor "okay" * looks at my genitals
Doctor "oh you have a micropenis" "and whats this [referring to me phalloplasty] a transplant?"
Me "yep"
Doctor "okay we will use the small catheter then"
*jams catheter into my penis
Girfriend "Be careful with his micropenis - it's small but powerful" girlfriend giggles and leaves the room
See the not problem?
What happens when the person undergoes a procedure that reveals inner organs that are present or not present and reports these findings to the SO? Keep in mind, I'm asking questions, not questioning anybody. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: chuck on December 05, 2013, 11:57:01 AM
You are not first person to say this so its not personal - but how silly to suggest that you don't love someone because you choose not to share something with them. Good grief.
also
Who I am is a guy who doesn't talk about the exact details of genitals and their past appearance. So if someone cant accept me for that, then yeah they are not deserving of my love.
Don't worry no offence was taken. This is a good debate.
I am just curious, to those who prefer to be stealth in a relationship, what would you do if a SO actually asks "are you trans"? Or maybe "were you born with X (condition or intersex)"?
I'd leave someone over withholding that kind on info.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on December 05, 2013, 03:55:09 AM
You say that as if being trans isn't a big deal, it is. In some perfect, openminded world where everyone's accepting and trans people can have babies and whatever else, maybe it wouldn't be, but in this world? Yes, it is. Why do you need a serious relationship where you can't be honest with your partner? If you need to have such a big secret between the two of you to keep you together, then why is it worth it?
To me being trans isn't such a huge deal though. I don't even see myself as trans. I see myself as having had a birth defect. :P I have thought it since I was around 4 and thought I just had an underdeveloped penis that would grow eventually. Lol.
Also I hope no one will get into arguments, as I like this thread and don't want it locked!
Quote from: LearnedHand on December 05, 2013, 12:45:25 PM
I am just curious, to those who prefer to be stealth in a relationship, what would you do if a SO actually asks "are you trans"? Or maybe "were you born with X (condition or intersex)"?
Maybe I would just say I rather not talk about it as it makes me feel depressed or something along those lines. If they bring up the trans thing though, I really can't say for sure what I would say right now. It would depend on how I am feeling at that moment. But for any other questions about infertility or something, like has been mentioned, I would probably just go with something like it was a birth defect and they had to reconstruct. If they would want to know more information about it... (See first sentence of this paragraph...)
Quote from: chuck on December 05, 2013, 11:47:26 AM
As someone who has been in that exact same scenario let me tell you what happened -
Doctor "you will be catheterized"
me "oh, uh my penis is a bit different"
Doctor "okay" * looks at my genitals
Doctor "oh you have a micropenis" "and whats this [referring to me phalloplasty] a transplant?"
Me "yep"
Doctor "okay we will use the small catheter then"
*jams catheter into my penis
Girfriend "Be careful with his micropenis - it's small but powerful" girlfriend giggles and leaves the room
See the not problem?
The problem would arise when you are not conscious..
Quote from: randomdude5 on December 05, 2013, 02:04:21 PM
To me being trans isn't such a huge deal though. I don't even see myself as trans. I see myself as having had a birth defect. :P I have thought it since I was around 4 and thought I just had an underdeveloped penis that would grow eventually. Lol.
You might not see it as such but your partner probably would.
Quote from: Kelly the Post-Trans-Rebel on December 05, 2013, 02:05:48 PM
The problem would arise when you are not conscious..
Not necessarily. They probably wouldn't suspect you are trans right away. They would probably think it was due to something else. A lot of people know so little about transgenders (including believing there are only MTFs and no FTMs) that it probably wouldn't come to thought.
Also I am pretty sure they are not allowed to be telling your SO everything they discover about you while you might be in hospital. Even if they are your SO, as long as you are mentally sane, there is that confidentiality thing. Plus I would have already told them they had to reconstruct my penis so if they were to tell my SO for some reason, "You know... He has a reconstructed penis.." or something? (I truly do not know how they would bring this up to them... Sorry!) there wouldn't/shouldn't be an issue.
Quote from: LearnedHand on December 05, 2013, 12:45:25 PM
I am just curious, to those who prefer to be stealth in a relationship, what would you do if a SO actually asks "are you trans"? Or maybe "were you born with X (condition or intersex)"?
I would probably not straight up deny it, but I may not directly answer it. I ask "would it matter?" , if the answer was no then I would state "than lets leave it at that as it is a very complicated and depressing and delicate subject" and "if you must know I will discuss it and go from there"
if they said it mattered I would simply ask why and go from there.
as for sharing childhoods etc, I have very little sharable experiences, and I would touch on those as quite honestly they cant be view as just a normal experience, as for the rest. per therapist's, family, and personal reasons it is best for me to just see it as a bad dream or as it was an experience not my own.
see it this way there are several situations where sometimes things just are not discussed (traumatic experiences are one, for example they were raped by a family member etc.) just to traumatic of an experience, same with some who have came back from war.
but to each their own concerning this- I only state this as I have had a couple friends who have had such things happen, and its a don't speak about ordeal.
so if it ever came up I would cross the bridge when I get there. I will say as of this moment he knows I had a bad/traumatic childhood and he said he didn't need to know if it was that bad. He has experiences he doesn't want to speak about as well and I don't pry. but we do love and trust each other and that's what really matters
Quote from: randomdude5 on December 05, 2013, 02:13:35 PM
Not necessarily. They probably wouldn't suspect you are trans right away. They would probably think it was due to something else. A lot of people know so little about transgenders (including believing there are only MTFs and no FTMs) that it probably wouldn't come to thought.
Also I am pretty sure they are not allowed to be telling your SO everything they discover about you while you might be in hospital. Even if they are your SO, as long as you are mentally sane, there is that confidentiality thing.
That's for here in the US but other parts of the world may have different rules regarding situations etc
Quote from: randomdude5 on December 05, 2013, 02:13:35 PM
Not necessarily. They probably wouldn't suspect you are trans right away. They would probably think it was due to something else. A lot of people know so little about transgenders (including believing there are only MTFs and no FTMs) that it probably wouldn't come to thought.
Also I am pretty sure they are not allowed to be telling your SO everything they discover about you while you might be in hospital. Even if they are your SO, as long as you are mentally sane, there is that confidentiality thing. Plus I would have already told them they had to reconstruct my penis so if they were to tell my SO for some reason, "You know... He has a reconstructed penis.." or something? (I truly do not know how they would bring this up to them... Sorry!) there wouldn't/shouldn't be an issue.
While there are privacy laws, many spouses (well. . . at least those who go to an estate planner :laugh: ) get Health Care Power of Attorneys giving the attorney status to their spouse. With HCPOAs if you're unconscious, brain dead, on lots of morphine, or otherwise incompetent and unable to make your own health care decisions, who ever is your designated health care attorney/proxy makes all those decisions for you.
While, hopefully, no one here is in a horrible situation where your trans past would come up do to an accident or other illness, it possibly could. Like, get in an accident, you're out of it and need surgery, doctor says to SO "okay I see you're the health care proxy, do you consent to us removing your husband's ovaries?" (assuming you haven't had a hysto yet). While it's easy to just dismiss it as a slim possibility or that it won't happen to you, it's important to keep in mind that we're not invincible and something like this can occur. Of course, maybe it won't or it would be taken care of in whatever birth defect you tell your SO you have. Also, after a horrible accident, likely you'll have other big issues to deal with.
Quote from: LearnedHand on December 05, 2013, 02:56:01 PM
While there are privacy laws, many spouses (well. . . at least those who go to an estate planner :laugh: ) get Health Care Power of Attorneys giving the attorney status to their spouse. With HCPOAs if you're unconscious, brain dead, on lots of morphine, or otherwise incompetent and unable to make your own health care decisions, who ever is your designated health care attorney/proxy makes all those decisions for you.
While, hopefully, no one here is in a horrible situation where your trans past would come up do to an accident or other illness, it possibly could. Like, get in an accident, you're out of it and need surgery, doctor says to SO "okay I see you're the health care proxy, do you consent to us removing your husband's ovaries?" (assuming you haven't had a hysto yet). While it's easy to just dismiss it as a slim possibility or that it won't happen to you, it's important to keep in mind that we're not invincible and something like this can occur. Of course, maybe it won't or it would be taken care of in whatever birth defect you tell your SO you have. Also, after a horrible accident, likely you'll have other big issues to deal with.
A little over a half century on this planet has taught me this: Mr. Murphy sees to it that the "it's never going to happen to me" crowd are the most commonly disappointed group in the world. :laugh:
I think it's best to tell a SO ...maybe not a casual date or a one nighter. But with someone you are planing to be with for a long time. It is bound to come out. Weather a relative let's it slip or someone who knows your status. Or in my case when your girlfriend answers the phone when someone calls the house and uses your birth name and birth pronouns. We got through it but she was made at the fact that I "lied" . To me I don't see it as lying... I AM a man. But I can also see how my gf sees it that way. Even if I was fully post op, I would never be able to bring my wife ( future) around my family , or have them at my wedding or have her meet any of my old friend with fear she would find out.
Quote from: calico on December 05, 2013, 02:39:25 PM
That's for here in the US but other parts of the world may have different rules regarding situations etc
I'm not American! :P
Quote from: LearnedHand on December 05, 2013, 02:56:01 PM
While there are privacy laws, many spouses (well. . . at least those who go to an estate planner :laugh: ) get Health Care Power of Attorneys giving the attorney status to their spouse. With HCPOAs if you're unconscious, brain dead, on lots of morphine, or otherwise incompetent and unable to make your own health care decisions, who ever is your designated health care attorney/proxy makes all those decisions for you.
While, hopefully, no one here is in a horrible situation where your trans past would come up do to an accident or other illness, it possibly could. Like, get in an accident, you're out of it and need surgery, doctor says to SO "okay I see you're the health care proxy, do you consent to us removing your husband's ovaries?" (assuming you haven't had a hysto yet). While it's easy to just dismiss it as a slim possibility or that it won't happen to you, it's important to keep in mind that we're not invincible and something like this can occur. Of course, maybe it won't or it would be taken care of in whatever birth defect you tell your SO you have. Also, after a horrible accident, likely you'll have other big issues to deal with.
Yes. This would be assuming all surgeries have been done, so hysto would have been done as well. You are right though, I had forgotten about the unconscious thing, but if all the parts of your biological sex have been removed I don't think there would be reason for them to suspect trans right away. I really hope that doesn't happen to anyone though. I think you would need some pretty massive trauma to require emergency removal of something like ovaries. You know, assuming the cause was due to some accident. :L
Also to those who have mentioned it can be very difficult to remain stealth to that degree with the internet now. I know this all too well already! Someone almost found me out by googling something and having this site come up but I managed to keep stealth. I am much more careful now though...
I don't think it's lying if you don't disclose. I would just find it to be weird to not tell someone who I trust and plan a long-term relationship. And also don't want to worry about past friends, family members saying things about my past. Maybe if I would be post-op I would disclose later.
To each his own, but for me personally - if I was with someone whom I considered to be the person that I was going to spend the rest of my life with and my soulmate, I would disclose. I have disclosed to my wife - if I were on the dating scene, I would not disclose until I was certain that the person I was dating was going to be with me long-term.
As for everyone else in my life, it's none of their business.
IMO because being trans is a pretty defining thing in my life I wouldn't dream of not telling an SO. Even if later it won't be important, it's affected my past and I want to be able to talk about my past openly. I also would not want to get into a relationship with someone who is not open. I wouldn't be in a relationship with someone who hated me once I came out, so why would I want to be in a relationship with another who would?
I certainly cannot make a blanket 'right or wrong' statement about my beliefs because it really depends on an individual's view on their past.
Personally for me, I consider that deceptive. If I'm going to be with a partner for the long haul, I'm going to tell her and if she doesn't want to be with a trans person then so be it. It will come out eventually somehow and when it does, I wouldn't want my partner to feel as though I was lying to her or couldn't trust her with that information. Besides, I would want to talk about my trans experience with my partner so hiding it wouldn't be an option for me.
I think I am going to step out on this subject as I don't believe anybody got my point, its just the same repetitive thing over and over without the consideration that sometimes the past is best left where it lies.
I probably shouldn't have entered this discussion. Anyway my opinion has been voiced and it appears to have been taken as a grain of salt would.
Quote from: calico on December 05, 2013, 09:48:45 PM
I think I am going to step out on this subject as I don't believe anybody got my point, its just the same repetitive thing over and over without the consideration that sometimes the past is best left where it lies.
I probably shouldn't have entered this discussion. Anyway my opinion has been voiced and it appears to have been taken as a grain of salt would.
I don't see it as being a salt to a wound. People don't have to fully agree with you to not disrespect you. If someone sees it as being deceptive/misrepresentation
to them, it doesn't mean they're putting judgment
on you. We're al from different places, different experiences, and lifestyles. I only saw this as people citing their own opinions, as asked for in the OP, not a debate to try to prove others wrong.
I am sorry if I missed your point or if I contributed to you feeling bad.
I am just going to add:
Part of why I have my own view on this subject is from the whole "treat others as you want to be treated" saying I grew up hearing over and over again.
To me, being trans* is a big deal. I'd want a SO to share something that's a big deal, that made a big impact on them with me, and I'd feel cheated if she/he didn't share that with me because they didn't have faith that I'd see them the same way, or still love them. So, if I'd feel cheated by someone hiding something that was a big deal to them from me, it's only fair to consider it being the same for them.
To others here who said being trans* isn't a big deal to them, that's perfectly cool. There's no need to share something that's not a big deal. If I didn't think it was a big deal, and I wasn't afraid of him/her finding out later on, then I wouldn't share.
I also said that I had an experience of my SO both outright lying and hiding something important from me, and I see the result of my SOs bad deeds. I wasn't saying your SO finding out would result in divorce or bad feelings, lots of people find stuff out and become angry for awhile and then work through it. Maybe your SO wouldn't be angry at all, or wouldn't care. Again, it all goes back to your own personal experience, your own judgment, your own way of dealing with things. My experience likely gives me a bias to being more open in relationships.
It's all a matter of opinion and experience. The site is here so everyone can share their opinions and experiences, it wouldn't be as helpful if everyone was too afraid to reply, or is disrespected. And, once again, I am sorry if contributed to you feeling disrespected or not heard.
I apologize as well as I should have been aware of and minded my personal feelings concerning the afore written subject.
It just appears to me that certain circumstance's are not being considered or taken into consideration. That is it is like that as a grain of salt is taken with little to no acknowledgement. I have to keep in mind this is just opinion. :-\
If I perhaps offended anyone I apologize for it as well.
Quote from: calico on December 05, 2013, 09:48:45 PM
I think I am going to step out on this subject as I don't believe anybody got my point, its just the same repetitive thing over and over without the consideration that sometimes the past is best left where it lies.
I probably shouldn't have entered this discussion. Anyway my opinion has been voiced and it appears to have been taken as a grain of salt would.
I am sorry if you might have felt this way. I for one, completely agree with how you described it in an earlier post. I think you and I are kind of on the same page in regards to this, and others have a right to have their own opinion. Like LearnedHand said, I was asking to hear others' opinions, and that is exactly what I have been getting. I think everyone can learn from the opinions of others, and sometimes someone can say something that may make you see in a different light, but not always. This thread isn't supposed to be telling someone their opinion is wrong, because ultimately it is your own choice.
I was expecting to get many people disagreeing with my opinion and several others', so I am not taking offence to anyone disagreeing. I just like to see others' point of view too!
Hopefully we can continue without arguments. :D
Quote from: calico on December 05, 2013, 10:15:03 PM
I apologize as well as I should have been aware of and minded my personal feelings concerning the afore written subject.
It just appears to me that certain circumstance's are not being considered or taken into consideration. That is it is like that as a grain of salt is taken with little to no acknowledgement. I have to keep in mind this is just opinion. :-\
If I perhaps offended anyone I apologize for it as well.
I followed the discussion without commenting. I think people have expressed the opinions based on their own person experiences. I see no reason for apologies.
Quote from: LearnedHand on December 05, 2013, 10:05:48 PM
I am just going to add:
Part of why I have my own view on this subject is from the whole "treat others as you want to be treated" saying I grew up hearing over and over again.
To me, being trans* is a big deal. I'd want a SO to share something that's a big deal, that made a big impact on them with me, and I'd feel cheated if she/he didn't share that with me because they didn't have faith that I'd see them the same way, or still love them. So, if I'd feel cheated by someone hiding something that was a big deal to them from me, it's only fair to consider it being the same for them.
To others here who said being trans* isn't a big deal to them, that's perfectly cool. There's no need to share something that's not a big deal. If I didn't think it was a big deal, and I wasn't afraid of him/her finding out later on, then I wouldn't share.
I also said that I had an experience of my SO both outright lying and hiding something important from me, and I see the result of my SOs bad deeds. I wasn't saying your SO finding out would result in divorce or bad feelings, lots of people find stuff out and become angry for awhile and then work through it. Maybe your SO wouldn't be angry at all, or wouldn't care. Again, it all goes back to your own personal experience, your own judgment, your own way of dealing with things. My experience likely gives me a bias to being more open in relationships.
It's all a matter of opinion and experience. The site is here so everyone can share their opinions and experiences, it wouldn't be as helpful if everyone was too afraid to reply, or is disrespected. And, once again, I am sorry if contributed to you feeling disrespected or not heard.
Thank you for clarifying and giving me your experience. I can see the view as you may have, and as stated everyone has different experiences and opinions.
let me touch a lil on my experience and why I don't feel compelled to let my SO know everything.
First the trans is a big deal to me as well but perhaps not in the same way as which you view it. I view it as a big bad deal to me and that if given the option I wouldn't go trough it no matter what. I didn't have a childhood, other than thee little time before 10 than my life was just a joke. moved a bunch ended up going to several mental hospitals, 1 of which abusive, dealing with family issues all while growing up with the view that how I felt was wrong and was going to send me to hell, and that the best option would be to kill my-self. not a good time. my life started when I finally ran away and transitioned and started living full time. I didn't do no try out and see if I liked it I knew what I had to do and I jumped in and have done what was needed to fix my life and my issues in my head which for a while was medicated because it left a form of ptsd on me. only over the last 6-7 years have things patched with my family and we are now good, and over the course of this year things with my mother have finally be fixed and she now has an understanding of what I went through. and at this point while my family originally was an antagonist of my life they are now there for me, and agree my past is best left alone as all it has is hurt. regrets. and pain. there is so much more but... I have 3 friends total who knew me before and are still around and my old name isn't even a whisper on the wind. same with family. like I said tis just skims the surface but perhaps you can see why I have the feelings I do. I just want to forget about being trans and move on. its already messed up 20 years of my life. its time for me to finally have a normal life IMO
I hope this makes it a bit more understandable.
I do completely understand the desire to just leave the past alone and live a normal life. I truly do, I sometimes have fantasies about just dropping everything and heading out to a cabin in Wyoming or Montana.
QuoteFirst the trans is a big deal to me as well but perhaps not in the same way as which you view it. I view it as a big bad deal to me and that if given the option I wouldn't go trough it no matter what.
I do just want you to know that, while my childhood may not have been as dramatic (ah that's a bad word to choose but I can't think of another, it's past mid-night here and I am about to go to bed) as yours, that being a trans* kid wasn't pleasant for me either. So, I am not for disclosure because I think being trans* is something that's cool, fun, and makes me unique. Disclosure is just part of my philosophy, and knowing how I'd feel if I was the non-trans SO.
Also, because we all need some more Rafiki in our lives and this is basically my life philosophy in a nutshell (and I posted this recently on someone else's thread so it's still in my mind):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZfGTL2PY3E
(learning from it doesn't mean you have to tell anyone about it :) we all have pasts that hurt, it's what we do next that matters)
The origional post asked for our opinion on if not telling someone you are in a relatiionship with that you are trans is lying or not. Now just because someone does not agree with my thoughts on this does not make their opinion any less valid than mine, and vice versa. I respect all others opinions even though I don't agree with them.
The point of a debate is to make the other side see your point of view and to get them to agree with you. And in some cases it's a stalemate and everyone agrees to disagree. As in this thread.
I am now going to step away from this topic as I dont see it moving in either direction.
To the origional poster I wish you well in all your future relationships.
Hugs
Bethany Dawn
OP, you got a ton of opinions! Even in our small community we are a very, very diverse group.
I'll add that I'm not out to offend or put down anyone. To each his own. My father once told me "the only person who has to live with your choices forever is you." I have alway taken that as my personal motto when I make a huge choice. As long as it a choice you can live happily with then that's that.
To the OP, I hope that your future relationships are happy ones. I have been with my husband for ten years, and I love him more every day. I'm a happy man, and I honestly think that if everyone can find that same feeling, the world would be a much better place.
Quote from: CursedFireDean on December 05, 2013, 06:13:33 PM
IMO because being trans is a pretty defining thing in my life I wouldn't dream of not telling an SO. Even if later it won't be important, it's affected my past and I want to be able to talk about my past openly. I also would not want to get into a relationship with someone who is not open. I wouldn't be in a relationship with someone who hated me once I came out, so why would I want to be in a relationship with another who would?
I certainly cannot make a blanket 'right or wrong' statement about my beliefs because it really depends on an individual's view on their past.
PERFECTLY STATED ! it is a big part of YOUR life. So not disclosing would be so much different for you than for me. Thank you for taking responsibility for your feelings and not thrusting them on someone else.
Casual dates? No. Significant other? Yes. Not because you are hiding anything, but for me, being in a serious relationship with someone requires extreme trust on both sides. I'd share with them because it is an important part of my history, which, sadly, may be a dealbreaker for some. I'd rather be dumped from the outset than after a 5-10-20 year relationship because of trust issues even if they would have been fine with the trans thing had I disclosed.
I broke up with my last partner over trust issues. I disclosed all of my most personal details to him. He withheld stuff from me. Having open, honest communication is a must for me in a serious relationship.
Jay
The weight of the 'lie' would prevent me from connecting with the person in the same way as if I had been open.
I can understand the appeal of it, but what a hassle to manage the omissions and substitutions necessary to keep it up in a close long-term relationship. For me, the stress of it would be constricting.
For me it's some what different. I'm a lot older. children aren't in the picture. If a man saw me as a woman who am I to argue. I wouldn't have a problem telling him . I think I'd let the relationship flow and see what happens.
I'd disclose it to my future gf/wife, I think you can loose trust that way and in my case I'm sure a woman would get mad, But that's just me I don't see it as decieving I just see it as their gonna find out sooner or later why not tell her
Personally, if I was post everything - I would not say that I am trans. Instead I can explain it with phrases that are still true, like a birth defect which results in a hormone imbalance, rendering me infertile. The emergency situation has already been answered, and likelihood of having my chromosomes checked in the presence of my partner is close to nil, so why should it matter?
The reason why I wouldn't disclose? I don't want to be viewed relative to my birth sex, because that is the exact opposite of how I want to live in this world. I've encountered a similar sort of thing when changing my name. Before it was legalized, I used it as my preferred name, but still had to declare my birth name in certain situations. Often I'd get people ignoring my preferred name and calling me by the birth name, even when corrected.
It was disrespectful and showed a lack of understanding, which is inevitable when navigating the world as a trans person. It was a relief to get everything corrected so I could go by my chosen name with no questions asked. Hence, I go through the process of transition to be seen completely as my chosen gender and not be tied to my past.
[Edited because comment explosion..]
What if someone who you loved deeply and who returned that love, bought your story about "birth defects", and had a long term relationship or married you, found out the truth? My perspective is that if I were in someone else's shoes and found out something like that I might feel like that person I loved so deeply and thought I knew so well, didn't trust me enough to tell me the truth. The truth has a funny way of popping up.
If you're just after superficial hook ups, I really don't think there's any reason to disclose the truth.
I don't know. I'm out to my partner since I'm pre-everything. The fact that he and most of the people in my life know the pre-transition me kills me a little bit. Sometimes I want to move to a new province post-transition and start over, without the weight of physical and social dysphoria on my shoulders.
The question of disclosure is a tricky thing for me. I guess if a long term partner asked I wouldn't say no, but I'd definitely test the waters early into any relationship. At the same time, I'm a firm believer in treating people the way they want to be treated. If I don't like talking about my history, any aspect of my history and not just my trans history, I would expect my partner to respect that and I'd do the same for them as well. Personally, I do see my being trans as a birth defect of sorts. Ever hear of polar gynandromorphy? An animal-usually an insect-born with the head and brain of one sex and the body of another? I view my condition as something along the same vein (though yours may not be, and that's cool too). So, I don't consider simply not talking about my transition lying, though outright denying ever going through it if asked about it would be.
When I really think about it, the words 'lying', or 'telling the truth' in regards to nondisclosure kinda rub me the wrong way; it's as if they imply that I'm not really my identified gender, like when people use the term 'real name' in regards to a trans person's birth name. Tell me the truth, what's your real gender? That's just my own knee-jerk reaction to it though, I know gender identity and the act of transitioning are two different things-but cis people don't always know that, which is what worries me. I am who I am. I'm not trying to fool anyone.
I guess, if my SO broke up with me tomorrow, I'd just stay single. Don't get me wrong, not being sulky here, I am actually cool with that since it's less hassle. I wouldn't have to worry about disclosure, how my partner would view me, them 'finding out', dying inside if they did, dying inside if the pressure got to me and I told them myself, etc. etc. Add all that to the usual stresses one faces in a relationship and yeah. Don't think I could deal with all that at once.
A life of celibacy would totally be worth it in exchange for a kickass beard though.
QuoteA life of celibacy would totally be worth it in exchange for a kickass beard though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0kSuZFOwFE
Of course! I shall take my beard as my lawfully wedded beard! Why didn't I think of it before?
In The UK it's a criminal matter not to disclose.
Quote from: Zambie on December 07, 2013, 01:33:20 AM
When I really think about it, the words 'lying', or 'telling the truth' in regards to nondisclosure kinda rub me the wrong way; it's as if they imply that I'm not really my identified gender, like when people use the term 'real name' in regards to a trans person's birth name. Tell me the truth, what's your real gender? That's just my own knee-jerk reaction to it though, I know gender identity and the act of transitioning are two different things-but cis people don't always know that, which is what worries me. I am who I am. I'm not trying to fool anyone.
I get your point. for me it not about telling about gender but more about telling about other stuff in my life.
I think my life have been pretty much infected by me being trans in good and bad ways so if a person didn't knew about me being trans (which I got many friends who dont) then it means theres certain details I cant tell or cant tell all exactly.
giving an exemple I went to "girl-groups" when I where a kid for a couple of years and I still have a friend from the time, if people would ask me where we knew eachother from or what we had done together. I wouldnt be able to answer that tuthfully, who would bug me.
I understand people who dont want to dig up in the past, theres also certain details I just want to forget, but I think unlike some of the users here I have felt rather opposite as my trouble was not to be "stealth" but to be allowed to be open in the first place.
Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on December 07, 2013, 04:42:45 AM
In The UK it's a criminal matter not to disclose.
yeah but it sucks..
Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on December 07, 2013, 04:42:45 AM
In The UK it's a criminal matter not to disclose.
Wow, you're right! I hadn't heard of this!!
Wow, what an interesting discussion. I don't agree with it, but that's kind of what makes it interesting to me. I think LH and I are on the same page here of perhaps embracing being trans*. It seems like a small percentage of the population here ,though funny thing not so much in the rather large support group I am in. Now to the topic. I see the way of explaining it problematic. Even though I don't see it this way I don't really see it as lying either. But the thing is you are not the spouse and you don't know how they would see it. I think in some cases *they* would see it as lying. Plus you would have to either have cut off ties with your family (or they would have to) or everyone would have to agree to your presentation of the situation so you don't have some kind of situation that you would not think of. It's not things you think about that cause trouble, it's what you don't think of.
Funniest line so far: Take care of his micropenis, it may be small but it's powerful. LOL.
--Jay
Yeah, see to me, I already cut off ties with everyone I knew pre-transition. Wasn't that much people anyways. lol Except for my family of course, but they are 100% supportive and all which is cool. My mum understands the issue about baby pictures and stuff and said we could get rid of most of them in which I appear obviously female if I ever wanna show pictures of myself when I was younger to a SO. So for me there wouldn't have been as much risk I think in not disclosing, than some others. I was lucky to begin transition early, managed to get a name change before I got my first job too so I don't really have any records that I can think of right now that are under my previous name even.
To me, it's one thing if it is a casual date, one night stand, etc. I don't think there is a reason to tell necessarily. But for your life partner, you omit say living your life in a female body for ___ years and going thru the kinds of things many of us go thru. It seems like with a life partner you want the most honest open relationship possible. Lying by omission, regardless of how you see yourself, is still lying.
--Jay
Quote from: Orange Creamsicle on December 05, 2013, 01:22:30 AM
hmmm I don't know...I know it would be decreasing the dating pool by a whole lot, but I'm not sure I'd want to be with someone who has an issue with someone being transgender.
this.
Sure I don't feel like in that situation it is wrong for
you to fudge the truth a little bit, but I know for me that if she actually gave a ->-bleeped-<- why I had the surgeries I had ect. it wouldn't be a worthwhile relationship for me.
I may fudge it for a month or so, though, if someone is super hot and I know they otherwise wouldn't be down. =p
If it's just a one night stand, I wouldn't bother telling her as it's irrelevant.
If it's someone I'm getting into a serious relationship with though, I would absolutely tell her. My reasoning is that I don't get into relationships unless they're someone I could see myself spending the rest of my life with. When I'm in a relationship, I want to be able to tell her anything. I wouldn't like having to slightly modify my stories from childhood and such. I don't think people need to tell their partners everything, but this is a pretty big thing to keep from someone. If I didn't tell her, I'd never feel comfortable visiting my family together, I'd always be worried that pics from childhood might come up or something. It just seems very stressful to not tell them. Also I wouldn't want to dedicate a large chunk of my life to someone who would have an issue with my trans status, easier to just tell them before the relationship begins.
QuoteMy perspective is that if I were in someone else's shoes and found out something like that I might feel like that person I loved so deeply and thought I knew so well, didn't trust me enough to tell me the truth. The truth has a funny way of popping up. .
My last relationship ended like this. I felt that I had shared everything about myself (including this); yet he could not trust me with more mundane (to me) issues.
Jay
i would need to tell my partner if it was along term thing just because being trans really has shaped my past. even though i don't identify as trans its still a part of me. but if i was just having a casual thing i wouldn't tell them i was trans id tell them i had birth defects or something.
I think being honest about it is important. We can describe it as 'hormone problems' and 'birth defects' all we like, but I feel that's stretching the truth a bit too much. As far as I'm concerned, if my SO's feelings towards me were affected by my trans status in any way, I'd have to reconsider if she was the woman I wanted to be with - our values would be too different. By hiding that status, I wouldn't know what she actually thought. As well as that, there are practical concerns - family and friends from before transition, explaining scars, hiding letters from doctors?
If it's just a one night stand or a casual fling, I don't see the point though.
Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on December 07, 2013, 04:42:45 AM
In The UK it's a criminal matter not to disclose.
Does that just mean you have to disclose to your partner or do you have to disclose to employers and everyone else too? I know this is off topic but now I'm curious. When is it a criminal matter not to disclose in the UK?
I think this is the story that gets most of the attention: http://m.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/06/1199629/-Jailed-for-failure-to-disclose-trans-status
the santa clause myth is replicated generation after generation. we lie to children, though we've been lied to. Because there is a greater truth in the lie--the parable teaches children the power of generosity and helps them understand the power and place of gift giving in life, as adults. It is a lie that teaches them empathy. That is the paradox I want to bring out about the juxtaposition for this topic. Our memory of that amazing benevolent being that gives so generously, has life-long implications for our appreciation of giving.
So, I believe that moralities operate on multiple levels. Trans-gendered morality, I would argue, transcends conventional morality (it must because it is an experience not shared by everyone, and so insights originate from within this community) and so, there are ideas about 'lying' that, for this discussion, need to be 'fathomed' on two levels: the child not aware of Santa's truth, and the adult looking back upon the child who was lied to.
For the trans-gendered community, they have the wisdom of having lived through and suffered from societal lies about trans-genderism. That has to mean something about decisions about disclosure.
So, my short answer, then, is that I do not think that 'lying' to decide not to tell everyone everything, no more than 'lying' is the right word to characterise the Santa Clause parable. I think a person listening to us, needs to be ready to know and accept a deeper truth. If they're not, then that has big implications for relational functioning. And so that timing of the sharing of truth, trans-gendered wisdom, their preparedness and readiness are decisions for trans-gendered people to make.
Quote from: stavraki on December 21, 2013, 09:47:57 PM
the santa clause myth is replicated generation after generation. we lie to children, though we've been lied to. Because there is a greater truth in the lie--the parable teaches children the power of generosity and helps them understand the power and place of gift giving in life, as adults. It is a lie that teaches them empathy. That is the paradox I want to bring out about the juxtaposition for this topic. Our memory of that amazing benevolent being that gives so generously, has life-long implications for our appreciation of giving.
I must have missed the whole point of the Santa Claus lie when I was a kid because frankly, I felt betrayed when I found out that my parents had lied to me. It was a terrible thing to go through. I felt that I had been made a fool of because in a way, I had been. When my parents lied that Santa was real I didn't question what they told me because I loved them and put all of my trust into them no matter how implausible the Santa myth seemed. When I finally found out that my parents hadn't let me in on their little game of deception I was crushed and embarassed. I was sad that the people I loved and put so much faith in had kept up such a useless lie, angry that they hadn't trusted me enough to let me in on the secret, and embarassed because I felt that they viewed me as a naive idiot who would actually believe such an implausable thing which I did. It became difficult for me to believe in anything at all including religion. I developed a chip on my shoulder and became a guarded skeptic about everything. Of course, I couldn't articulate all those feelings then but when I reflect I can see the damage it caused me as a child. That's a pretty sad thing for an 8 year old to go through. If I had known that it was my parents who had bought me all those gifts and worked so hard to give me a nice Christmas every year maybe I would have appreciated them and enjoyed the holidays much more. After the truth came out though, I was sour about it every Christmas until I was old enough to just shrug it off.
So I guess my Santa experience is one huge metaphor for how a lot of people would feel if their partner wasn't open with them about being transgender or even just about things in general. Imagine having those feelings of sadness and betrayal on an adult level when you suddenly find out that the person you've loved and trusted has been unnecessarily hiding something from you. (I'm just using "you" as a general term here to put the reader in the mindset of someone feeling these things.) Maybe you don't even have a problem with the fact that they're transgender. Afterall, why should you if you've loved them without even knowing? But you sure as hell are going to have a problem with the fact that they didn't trust you enough to be open and honest with you in the first place. It's not a good feeling to have someone hide things from you because they think you can't handle knowing the truth either. You'll have to wonder what else they aren't telling you because they think you can't handle it. Perhaps you'll also feel that if they had just been open and honest with you, you would have appreciated your relationship so much more because the fact that they confided in you would have shown that they've placed a lot of their trust in you.
I think people have instincts for knowing what kinds of truths are going to trigger pathology in the perceiver. For the genital configurations of the trans-gendered community, this strikes the prejudices of a gender-locked society, head-on squarely.
I have empathy for the minority group in this instance. My close people may know about the mangled state of my genitals and how that occurred. And I reserve the right to use my judgment to decide who is worthy of knowing the truth. I judge you, first, about the quality and capacity of your empathy faculty, to tolerate ideas discordant with conventional realities. You will tell me where you hit a limit about what you think is 'normal'. If you fail the 'empathy test', you don't get to know my private truths. That's what having an 'inner circle' is all about. Not telling a prejudiced person a private truth about yourself is not lying. It's making a decision to respect and protect yourself by keeping someone unempathic out of your personal space. We get hurt by those close to us rejecting something fundamental about us.
For the person who feels betrayed about 'not' knowing the truth, earlier, I wonder if they need to scrutinise themselves, and, before centring on their own demand and need for truth, take a moment to see this, first, from the perspective of the disadvantaged minority group--with one of the highest suicide rates in the civilised world. I don't think it is lying to make a decision to disclose at your own rate. As far as I'm concerned, that gives them great leniency in this area.
Not telling is not necessarily lying not to tell the person you are having a relationship with that you are transgender. However, what you tell the person you are in a relationship depend upon how old you are and what stage you are in your life cycle. The question of your ability to bring children into the world, may well become an issue and then you will have to tell your partner you are infertile, unless you had your sperm or eggs put in fertility banks, which will again take some explaining.
Since I am in my sixties and in a partnership with another person while we raise our 10 year old son and am not into casual relationships, for myself, I accept that no matter how I change my body to appear more effeminate, for many who know me I will be a transgender lady. To acquaintances who see me as a lady, I don't feel that I have to out myself. Others whom I live with will do that.
But I am what I am, a lady. I am not what others think I am. But, this is just the world I live in and I helped create. I am responsible for my choice, which to my code of honor is not a choice, to stay in the relationships I involved myself in until they come to their natural end. Relationships are not all sunshine and lollypops, but have all of the elements that those whom climb Mt. Everest experience.
I have never, climbed Mt. Everest, but in my later years I walked out of Canyon de Chelly, with much shortness of breath and achy muscles. And I spent much of my working life in front of many different classrooms of children, so I have a rough idea. Raising ten children with two different spouses has many of the aspects that climbers of Mt. Everest must experience.
What I think is that you do not have to explain to everyone you have a relationship with that you are transgender, but it is important to know how they feel about being involved with transgender individuals emotionally. This is only for you to look out for yourself emotionally. Why put yourself in the same position of fear of exposure you had when you were first dealing with being transgender and were afraid of how those you had relationships with would feel about you?
Of course people in relationships don't tell each other everything about their pasts, but if they really love each other, if they find things out they don't like about each other, they will be able to forgive and forget. How would feel if you found out your spouse was a wanted felon and hid it from you for 20 years, and they it became public and they were arrested?
Now being transgender is in no way comparable to being a wanted felon, but some people feel that strongly about it, however wrong that is.
One of my blessings in being transgender and growing up in an alcoholic family is that I have become more tolerant of other people's short comings and temperments, sometimes too much so. My response to finding out some one I was having a relationship is was a wanted felon, I would probably think, "So, what else is new. It's pare for the course."
There is no one right answer for anyone and many people are becoming more accepting these day. At least they don't immediately stone you to death when they find out you are transgender. I get a lot of so what's, even from the police, your life style is your choice. But I have found that living in Florida as a senior age grandma, that older people for the most part are just invisible.
Each individual has to decide for themselves when it is important for them to out themselves as transgender, if they are not already out. There is not right or wrong answer. There is either some degree of happiness or some degree of sadness and grieve. And one is stuck with accepting whatever outcome happens.
Everybody else lives in a world
I never told my kids the Santa story other than some kids believe it. Sharing your trans status with someone you value, if you feel safer doing so, makes sense.
I'm curious to know if there is anyone here who is currently in (or has been in), a long term relationship where their partner does not (did not), know? If so, how long was the relationship?
Alternatively, is there anyone here who has known someone who has been successful in keeping this from their partner long term?
I would be curious to know what that experience was like.
I've always disclosed to a potential long term girlfriend. Even if I was post all of my surgeries I would still disclose. It would take too much energy and stress to try to hide this for the rest of your life if the person ended up being your lifelong partner. It would be about impossible to hide unless you said you had no family (a kid who was never adopted and aged out of the system?). It would just be too much effort. I'd rather disclose and face possible rejection then move on if they couldn't handle it.
Imagine loving someone for years, they didn't know, you walk in when they're watching a talk show with transsexuals, and you hear them say "Look at this...aren't they disgusting?". That would be a nightmare.