Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Just wondering there is a topic on the ftm forum that asks the question and the replies are curious. For the most part there seems to be no obligation to let any one other than yourself know your birth identity. I 'm curious how people felt about telling future partners their birth gender or the prospects of a change in gender prior to commitment.

I think so and I do. It's going to come up, better make sure they are fine with it immediately to avoid the drama and possible danger down the line.

You have no obligation as such, but it's definitely advisable. Then again, I'd be the sort of person to reveal it fairly early on, so as not to end up with somebody who would judge me for it further down the line. If it's going to be a problem for that person, then I don't want anything to do with that person.

What is an "obligation"?

To me it means that something bad might happen if I don't do it.

If I don't tell a partner that I'm trans, especially within a long term relationship, something bad will likely happen. Unless I completely wall off my past from them, they will find out on their own and be very unhappy that I wasn't open with them.

Does this form an obligation?

A question of definition, really.

Yes. Do it for yourself and avoid the pain of living in a closet.

I think it's important.

Maybe not wear a neon sign, but it's something I'd bring up within the first few dates. You don't technically have to, but you avoid problems by doing so.

ok girl code states that if its a one night stand then no you dont. your both just in it for a quickie. but now if its a relationship type thing you are supposed to tell. because if not it causes problems and makes guys feel like they have a get out of jail free card. examples of things to tell. is you use to be male, you have kids, your on parole, have super bad credit. y

You can not start a meaningful relationship on a lie. It will come out sooner or later. Later will more than likely end the relationship.

I would feel happier if they knew.  it is not nice to have this as a secret.

I've heard too many stories of transwomen getting badly injured or killed for not being honest with a partner.   Some men's sense of masculinity is a very fragile thing (ironic much?) and can have serious issues when their peer group begins to perceive them as gay.   Even finding out that someone they found attractive is trans can crush a macho man's ego to the point of violence.

This is why I am not going to get plastic surgery to the point of becoming drop dead gorgeous.  I'd like to be unmistakebly female, but being too pretty can be dangerous for you as well. 

Dudebro culture makes me sick.

Quote from: Jill F on December 07, 2013, 05:35:47 PMDudebro culture makes me sick.

AMEN sister and violence is a BIG part of that culture when things don't go how they want or if they are threatened.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on December 07, 2013, 03:07:17 PM
You can not start a meaningful relationship on a lie. It will come out sooner or later. Later will more than likely end the relationship.

why do people act like nondisclosure is a "lie"? someone's personal life is their own business, and they can choose whether to disclose it or not. i would never ask my partner's name she was given at birth, and i would feel very uncomfortable telling her mine. that doesn't mean we don't trust each other, it just means it's something that causes me a lot of pain to think about.

transitioning, being trans as a teenager, was a trauma for me. i'm not going to share or talk about that information unless i feel ready to do that. and i'm not "lying" if i choose not to share that with someone, whether in a relationship, or with anyone, ever.

Quote from: DrZoey on December 07, 2013, 10:16:24 AM
Yes. Do it for yourself and avoid the pain of living in a closet.

that's just it. it's not a closet for me, not really. not anymore. i've been post-transition long enough that it doesn't feel recent or relevant to even talk about it. there's no cis police demanding that every woman submit proof of menstruation or something, so from day to day life it's not even something i think about. it's not even something i think about in relation to those things; i mean, my first reaction to someone talking about uteruses or pregnancy or whatever is not "oh yeah, i'm trans" but "oh yeah, that's something some women can/do experience".

i don't know. my partner knows virtually everything about me. but that's not because it's my responsibility to tell her everything. it's because i feel safe in trusting her with the information.

Quote from: transtrender on December 07, 2013, 05:46:54 PM
why do people act like nondisclosure is a "lie"? someone's personal life is their own business, and they can choose whether to disclose it or not. i would never ask my partner's name she was given at birth, and i would feel very uncomfortable telling her mine. that doesn't mean we don't trust each other, it just means it's something that causes me a lot of pain to think about.

transitioning, being trans as a teenager, was a trauma for me. i'm not going to share or talk about that information unless i feel ready to do that. and i'm not "lying" if i choose not to share that with someone, whether in a relationship, or with anyone, ever.

Thank you for saying this.

Ok, let's throw another situation out there.. Say you're a post op, successfully transitioned, and intimately involved with someone of the opposite sex that knows nothing of your past. For us MTF's, this would be a man. This man says that he wants kids. What do you tell them ? Is this the point when the lies start or do you come clean to avoid potential heartache, possible violence and the stark reality that you have possibly messed someones life up. Sometimes, forgetting the friends and family you left behind to live life in your new role, you have to make it about someone else. Dont you ?

For those of us that identify as lesbians, for obvious reasons, that may well be a different matter. Then again I've seen some of the wrath that the butch, 1970's feminist transhaters can dish out and I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that either. :o

I'm not going to say whether someone should or should not tell somebody that's not my business. But for me if I can't trust someone enough to be able to talk about my whole life even the parts before transition then I have no business being with that person. A relationship is built off trust and if their is no trust then that relationship is doomed from the start. Sure I may not be happy about my birth defect but my life before transition wasn't so horrible that I wouldn't want to share them stories with the person I love. :)

Oh great, this thread again  ::)

Freedom to, freedom from

Every *trans person has the freedom to disclose. I see this as a very important part of your life and don't see why it should be hidden. When and how you go about this is completely up to you. And why wouldn't you? Forget about your partner for a second, think of yourself. Do you not want to share a relationship with your SO where they can see your very essence, your soul? Isn't that true love in a way, being completely naked and vulnerable to your partner? Almost as though you share the same mind?...

Every *trans person should have the freedom from disclosing. I understand that this is not always possible (don't pass, long past history etc) but as the expression goes, smoke em if you got em. Say you meet someone for a casual encounter, why are you obliged to tell? Are you seeking instant gratification with what this person has to offer? How is your transness (for lack of a better word) going to affect that situation?

TL, DR :Its your life, do as you wish!

The key word here is "obligation."  And it has made me think about the issue since this topic first was posted.

Disclaimer:  I am not post-op.  I probably never will be.  It is impossible for me to fully comprehend the issue from the perspective of a post-op woman.

With that said, I see no "obligation."  In a way, an obligation reinforces the idea that the transgendered woman is not a "real" woman.  That she is something less.

But the reality is that she is a woman.  She always has been.  No matter what Nature and society tried to do otherwise.

If I were ever in that situation, I would hope that I had a partner who loved me for who I am, flaws and scars and all.  Not for a body part.  I am not my body - I am my mind and heart and soul.

I see nothing wrong with disclosure; I just don't see it as an obligation.

Quote from: Jamie D on December 08, 2013, 11:53:02 AM
The key word here is "obligation."  And it has made me think about the issue since this topic first was posted.

Disclaimer:  I am not post-op.  I probably never will be.  It is impossible for me to fully comprehend the issue from the perspective of a post-op woman.

With that said, I see no "obligation."  In a way, an obligation reinforces the idea that the transgendered woman is not a "real" woman.  That she is something less.

But the reality is that she is a woman.  She always has been.  No matter what Nature and society tried to do otherwise.

If I were ever in that situation, I would hope that I had a partner who loved me for who I am, flaws and scars and all.  Not for a body part.  I am not my body - I am my mind and heart and soul.

I see nothing wrong with disclosure; I just don't see it as an obligation.

I can understand this perspective and somewhat agree.  Still, i can't imagine a meaningful relationship developing without disclosure.   Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel a personal obligation to tell someone.   With that said, I respect those who don't.   It's just not for me, and I wonder if a healthy relationship can really be forged under those conditions.

In the case of a long term relationship or even one that you have a hope will be long term I think you should tell your partner. There is a chance it will come out whether you like it or not and it would be terrible for a relationship to be destroyed by what is perceived to be a lie. As for casual encounters if I was postop I would not tell preop since there is a chance you could be found out it is better to tell so there are no surprises which could turn bad for you. Also for those in the Uk I recently saw this article http://www.lexplain.org.uk/criminal-law/334/ (http://www.lexplain.org.uk/criminal-law/334/) where a Transman's consent to sexual acts with a woman was nullifyed because he did not tell her of his birth gender (warning lots of legal jargon). This is a scary precedent where you could be charged with rape by not telling your partner about your birth gender.

personally one night stands we're both just there to have a good time not a big deal. I think as the  relationship started to move I think it would pop out of me if they didn't already figure it out.

A strong and resounding: No from me.

I never told unless there was a chance of a LTR and only after 3-4 dates pre-op... and now post-op, definitely not. Maybe if marriage comes in to the equation, then I'll cross that bridge.

Well I'm 30 years downstream from SRS, and despite being partially anatomically male at the time, I grew up as mostly female thanks to parents so far ahead of their time they were almost in the next galaxy!!!

So obligation to tell? NOPE!

Would I? YEP!

When? Quite early on actually and well before we move beyond casual friendship.

Why? Because I want to test their reaction to find out whether they are worthy of my affections or even interest. If they react badly I'm going to eject them from my life so forcefully they are going to wonder what the  heck just hit them. If they react with a reasonable or questioning response THEN and only then do we have anything worth wasting my time on. So I don't worry about them rejecting me, but they sure as heck better worry that I won't reject them.

Basically I'm almost arrogant enough to think that rare people like us are special and superior and we don't want to be wasting our time on a boring "norm" who isn't worthy of it! ;) (oh and please note the wink!)

So does this mean I am fully out and open? NOPE!

Explain...? Well at work or in casual social situations I don't see the need to tell anyone about something which happened so long ago that most of them weren't even born.  The only exception I make to this is if I think that telling someone will serve a useful purpose, such as for example enabling me to educate my fellow medical students about how to react to something like that - and of course to show that that with some of us, and contrary to popular belief, there simply are no tell tale signs...

But your signature says you identify as CIS - how does that work? Well I didn't experience gender dysphoria, I was intersex, I didn't have much difficulty getting my treatment and after this long I certainly don't have any issues - I also tend to assume most cis privileges, so its not a perfect fit, but then nor are any of the available labels and cis happens to be the closest I can find. Also it is a tenet of this site that people have the right to self identify as they wish.

Quote from: Doctorwho? on December 08, 2013, 02:16:28 PM
Well I'm 30 years downstream from SRS, and despite being partially anatomically male, I grew up as mostly female thanks to parents so far ahead of their time they were almost in the next galaxy!!!

So obligation to tell? NOPE!

Would I? YEP!

When? Quite early on actually and well before we move beyond casual friendship.

Why? Because I want to test their reaction to find out whether they are worthy of my affections or even interest. If they react badly I'm going to eject them from my life so forcefully they are going to wonder what the  heck just hit them. If they react with a reasonable or questioning response THEN and only then do we have anything worth wasting my time on. So I don't worry about them rejecting me, but they sure as heck better worry that I won't reject them.

Basically I'm almost arrogant enough to think that rare people like us are special and superior and we don't want to be wasting our time on a boring "norm" who isn't worthy of it! ;) (oh and please note the wink!)

So does this mean I am fully out and open? NOPE!

Explain...? Well at work or in casual social situations I don't see the need to tell anyone about something which happened so long ago that most of them weren't even born.  The only exception I make to this is if I think that telling someone will serve a useful purpose, such as for example enabling me to educate my fellow medical students about how to react to something like that - and of course to show that that with some of us, and contrary to popular belief, there simply are no tell tale signs...

But your signature says you identify as CIS - how does that work? Well I didn't experience gender dysphoria, I was intersex, I didn't have much difficulty getting my treatment and after this long I certainly don't have any issues - I also tend to assume most cis privileges, so its not a perfect fit, but then nor are any of the available labels and cis happens to be the closest I can find. Also it is a tenet of this site that people have the right to self identify as they wish.

While I am not intersex, much of what Doctorwho says I agree with.  Tell - yes.  Obligated - No.  When - if it may become more than just casual.

doctor who is an inspiration for me on this site.

No. And quite honestly my BF hates when I talk about hormones and whatnot. Personally, I think all the coming out talk and disclosing and such is quite unhelpful for someone early in transition or early in a relationship.

Yes, the perspective does change a lot when you are long term post everything... In the early days (pre surgery) I don't think I could have even considered having a relationship, so the issue simply wouldn't have arisen.

One final footnote worth adding is that since adopting this uncompromising stance I have never really had any lack of suitors or indeed encountered negative reactions, only one man has ever been rejected, and being up front saved me wasting my time on a him.

No you're obligated to do what you feel is right.

I feel it's right for me to never divulge and I'm going to run the risk unless they directly ask. If they do I will probably break it off or lie depending on the type of relationship. Once I fully transition I will be largely what I was supposed to be. I'm not transitioning to be thought of by my other half in a relationship as "My wife/girlfriend (who used to be a boy)" I don't want that hanging around my neck like a neon sign every time that person thinks of me or sees me. Life's tough. I didn't get to chose my gender nor was I blessed enough to be comfortable with it, and I was forced to tangle with being trans in the closet for twenty freaking years while the shame, guilt, and a lack of any information had me feeling like **** while all of my family, friends, and peers wondering why I was so strange. Life's tough for other people too though, like when closeted transphobes find out they have been married to a transsexual for a few decades. They didn't ask, I didn't tell and I will cross that bridge IF I even come to it. I'm tired of being male and I think I've suffered through enough without having to be seen as the token transsexual in my life by other people. That's just how I feel and you have to do what you feel is right.

yeah we cant tell each other what we should tell or not. but remember little black book. omission is betrayal. i dont see it that way but i know alot of people do.

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 08, 2013, 01:42:09 PM
I'm going to make a wild stab in the dark and suggest that you probably haven't been in that situation?

Most people have a handful of things in their life that they don't tell many people. I was the only person to carry a particular secret for my sis, until she decided to tell her partner. When she told him, after 5 years together, he wasn't mad at her for keeping it, he was grateful to be trusted. Because he's a really good guy... which is why my sister felt safe enough with him to tell him.

Very few people know that I tried to off myself. And that's not something I'd share readily in a new relationship. It wouldn't feel safe. And if a partner after 6 months or a year or however long I waited to tell them felt betrayed by my silence, then they wouldn't be the right person for me. Part of being in a relationship is respecting your partner's privacy until they learn to trust you.

I have a couple stories from my childhood that I don't even feel comfortable posting anonymously on here. And which nobody knows the full details of, and maybe never will. That's just how I am. I don't trust people easily and I don't form close relationships easily.

I think what's most glaring about a lot of the folks posting here is that they suggest only two forms of relationship: intimate-long-term and one-night-stand. There is a lot more out there. There are all kinds of casual and temporary relationships, and sometimes they evolve into something more and sometimes they don't. I mean, if someone came at me like, "I want a long term relationship and kids and you should tell me all your secrets and trust me 100% after 3 months together," I'd be like "go away you crazy person." :P

I am what I am. I am my eyes and lips and smile and charm and tits and ass. If someone wants to hook up with me, what they get is what they see. My history? That's the business of people I love. Same thing for them.

I don't feel like that's even a lie of omission. It's just not part of a sexual transaction like that. STIs and sexual preferences and boundaries are basically all you have a right to know in that situation. I mean, it would make my skin crawl if I accidentally slept with someone who had voted for Harper, but if I don't ask, that's my problem, not theirs.

My thinking has always been similar to what Road to Trista's is....BUT I struggle with feeling this way...at one hand I feel like I am really deceiving someone...on the other hand take sex out of the picture and what am I deceiving someone about. If I am going to feel like I am deceiving someone because I do not tell them from the first meeting or even the third meeting...then I must be deceiving everyone I meet.

I struggled with this early on in my transition with almost everyone I had contact with...men and women...even now at times when I am accepted in certain discussions between only women...I feel a little like I am deceiving them. But how am I deceiving them, I am a woman like any other unless you have some sort of special vision that would enable you too see what I have between my legs.

I currently struggle very much with whether I am deceiving someone or am just trying to live my life like any other WOMAN. Am I suppose to refuse friendship with a man because I am not an "actual" women WTF.

I have been on a couple of dates with a man I am very attracted to emotionally and physically. There has been some affection...but of course no sex. I never intended on being affectionate with him...it just happened. We have been in communication very much and I have tried numerous times to end things but was unable to do that...I then tried to tell him without actually saying "hey I was born a man" he knows very much about me and at one time through him researching more about me.... I thought he found out so I continued with the relationship only to find out he didn't know.

I have since become very fond of him and am attracted to him vey much emotionally and physically. I want to tell him so bad but not sure how to do this!! Yes I have deceived him to the fact I have something a woman cannot have....but in no way have I deceived him about who I am....I am woman!! that's that!!!

one possibility is that he does know and letting you be you. of course  then again maybe he doesn't know. I think I'd try searching him out with hypothetical questions and see where he's coming from

People in the UK should be aware that it is against the law not to disclose to *any* sexual partner and can and has led to at least one person I know of, being prosecuted and sentenced.

trust me he doesn't know!! I thought he found out and was a bit relieved to feel things hadn't changed....but found out rather soon this was not the case. I have tried to just end things rather than tell him....it would be easier for me, but I know this would hurt him too much. He is a very very nice man...decent job(s) good father, good morals, and treats me with respect.

The other thing is....I really do enjoy his company....he has been alone for a long time, and so have I. He has made me feel very good about myself for the first time in a long time.

Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on December 08, 2013, 04:28:52 PM
People in the UK should be aware that it is against the law not to disclose to *any* sexual partner and can and has led to at least one person I know of, being prosecuted and sentenced.

So we are suppose to assume that if meeting someone they will become our sexual partner....and if you are referring to post op then this is even more absurd!!

and...if they are already a sexual partner then I assume they would already know!!

Am I missing something ???

Quote from: Gene24 on December 08, 2013, 03:29:21 PM
No you're obligated to do what you feel is right.

I feel it's right for me to never divulge and I'm going to run the risk unless they directly ask. If they do I will probably break it off or lie depending on the type of relationship. Once I fully transition I will be largely what I was supposed to be. I'm not transitioning to be thought of by my other half in a relationship as "My wife/girlfriend (who used to be a boy)" I don't want that hanging around my neck like a neon sign every time that person thinks of me or sees me. Life's tough. I didn't get to chose my gender nor was I blessed enough to be comfortable with it, and I was forced to tangle with being trans in the closet for twenty freaking years while the shame, guilt, and a lack of any information had me feeling like **** while all of my family, friends, and peers wondering why I was so strange. Life's tough for other people too though, like when closeted transphobes find out they have been married to a transsexual for a few decades. They didn't ask, I didn't tell and I will cross that bridge IF I even come to it. I'm tired of being male and I think I've suffered through enough without having to be seen as the token transsexual in my life by other people. That's just how I feel and you have to do what you feel is right.

This is what I'm worried about, that it will change their view of me and instead of being the beautiful woman he fell in love with, he'll see me as trans. Of course not that being trans is a bad thing, but I want my man to see me as a woman since that's who I am and I know it can be hard for people who don't understand to wrap their head around. He may still love me and want to be with me, but the way he looks at me will be different and I don't want that. Still, I don't see how it's possible to spend your life with someone and they never find out you were born the opposite gender. If I was  developing strong feelings for a guy and felt like I could trust them not to tell anyone, I think i would definitely tell them. Otherwise, for casual hookups or deciding after a few dates that it's not gonna work out, I probably wouldn't tell.

OK, I'm going to get myself into trouble and join the conversation.

I'm putting myself on the other side.

I imagine I'm a guy. I'm dating my precious girlfriend for a few months. I go to meet her parents (or kids. Or cousins. Or some family or old friends that means something to her.)

We have a lovely time, but there are some peculiar things I don't understand. They seem reluctant to talk about her past. Occasionally I see her shoot them a look that says "don't talk about that." I'm wondering why the subject of what my girlfriend was like as a kid is avoided.

Then one of them slips up. Uses the wrong pronoun or talks about what a cute boy she was when she was young. I put two and two together.

And I wonder how many other people know, and why she didn't trust me enough to tell me. How do you imagine I'd feel about all that?

                                                                             just shelly                          I don't no you got a tough problem. You could just take it day by day or  just take that big step and be honest. the worst that will happen since you say he's a decent person is that he'll say good bye.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 08, 2013, 05:20:10 PM
OK, I'm going to get myself into trouble and join the conversation.

I'm putting myself on the other side.

I imagine I'm a guy. I'm dating my precious girlfriend for a few months. I go to meet her parents (or kids. Or cousins. Or some family or old friends that means something to her.)

We have a lovely time, but there are some peculiar things I don't understand. They seem reluctant to talk about her past. Occasionally I see her shoot them a look that says "don't talk about that." I'm wondering why the subject of what my girlfriend was like as a kid is avoided.

Then one of them slips up. Uses the wrong pronoun or talks about what a cute boy she was when she was young. I put two and two together.

And I wonder how many other people know, and why she didn't trust me enough to tell me. How do you imagine I'd feel about all that?

idk? maybe i feel differently about this because i went to high school and college as female so i saw the end result of girls lying to their parents/ boyfriends and friends and the results of doing so.from what i have seen (and taken part in having such a slutty past)people like to know about the person they love or like alot. guys hate lies and games. and nope im not saying im perfect i have lied to many guys about many things and gotten caught from time to time myself.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 08, 2013, 05:20:10 PM
OK, I'm going to get myself into trouble and join the conversation.

I'm putting myself on the other side.

I imagine I'm a guy. I'm dating my precious girlfriend for a few months. I go to meet her parents (or kids. Or cousins. Or some family or old friends that means something to her.)

We have a lovely time, but there are some peculiar things I don't understand. They seem reluctant to talk about her past. Occasionally I see her shoot them a look that says "don't talk about that." I'm wondering why the subject of what my girlfriend was like as a kid is avoided.

Then one of them slips up. Uses the wrong pronoun or talks about what a cute boy she was when she was young. I put two and two together.

And I wonder how many other people know, and why she didn't trust me enough to tell me. How do you imagine I'd feel about all that?

Well you don't know me...and that's understandable...but believe it or not I am a very honest and trustworthy person....but how can I honestly say this with what I am doing :(

I constantly put myself in the other persons shoes always!! and this is why I hate myself for doing what I am doing!!

I would never have it get to the point of me meeting his son or other people...and definitely not sleeping over and such...it is at the point of a girl getting to know a boy....just normal life....but apparently not!! that's what SUCKS!!!

Obligation?  No.  Should you?  Eh, maybe.  There are lots of reasons why it is probably a good idea to disclose when the time is right.  I don't personally see myself being long term with any guy and not telling them, but that is just me.  I wouldn't judge anybody else for doing differently.  There are many reasons why it might be a bad idea or completely unnecessary after all.

I thought I would just add one more point, I've heard far too many straight guys in my life say if they were ever tricked by a trans woman they would kill them that I know better than to push my luck with a man. Trying to be totally stealth is not worth losing my life over, I have no attention of having my name added to a list of trans women who have been murdered because some man found out about their birth status.
Btw I'm not advocating whether someone should be obligated to tell or not, I'm just saying for me I'm not willing to take that big of a gamble with my life and would rather spend the rest of my life alone than worrying whether or not my husband going to find out and divorce me or do something worse to me.  ;)

Quote from: Heather on December 08, 2013, 08:53:26 PM
I thought I would just add one more point, I've heard far too many straight guys in my life say if they were ever tricked by a trans woman they would kill them that I know better than to push my luck with a man. Trying to be totally stealth is not worth losing my life over, I have no attention of having my name added to a list of trans women who have been murdered because some man found out about their birth status.
Btw I'm not advocating whether someone should be obligated to tell or not, I'm just saying for me I'm not willing to take that big of a gamble with my life and would rather spend the rest of my life alone than worrying whether or not my husband going to find out and divorce me or do something worse to me.  ;)

What happens if your at the bar or something and something "just happens"? That is a thing. But I guess for me I am an okay judge of character and wouldn't make out with a guy who would do that. (not saying you aren't an okay judge, just more careful then me lol) Also, a lot of these murders tend to be trans girls who are prostituting themselves. Not saying that excuses it at all but the type of guy that would go that route, yeah, usually not the most moral of men.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on December 08, 2013, 09:02:52 PM
What happens if your at the bar or something and something "just happens"? That is a thing. But I guess for me I am an okay judge of character and wouldn't make out with a guy who would do that. (not saying you aren't an okay judge, just more careful then me lol) Also, a lot of these murders tend to be trans girls who are prostituting themselves. Not saying that excuses it at all but the type of guy that would go that route, yeah, usually not the most moral of men.

I've dealt with enough of a certain type of man that likes to go after the type of woman I am that it has made me mistrustful of all men now so I'm always careful. ;)

as one of the fast girls of Susans i must say i agree with heather. guys dont like being what they feel is tricked/ lied too. as they said in malibus most wanted.  the girl ,"baby its not what it looks like!"
the guy ," dont you use that line. thats my line and it always was what it looked like!"
at some point before marriage it just might be a good idea to tell them. or not. your life your relationship.  >:-)
im just sayin.....

I say yes, a big yes, because while you may hate your birth gender, it's still a part of you, you carry each and every experence from it within you and they make you who you are, if you didn't would you have been as strong as you are?

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on December 08, 2013, 01:46:11 PM
I agree about dudebro culture, though, but the first step toward changing this is not to tell WOMEN to act differently, it's to tell men to change this primitive behaviour.

I agree with that to a point but there's a difference between having a right to be beautiful with a right to safety vs showing a bunch of skin in front of some men with nothing to lose by violating a woman.

Quote from: Xhianil on December 08, 2013, 10:31:19 PM
I say yes, a big yes, because while you may hate your birth gender, it's still a part of you, you carry each and every experence from it within you and they make you who you are, if you didn't would you have been as strong as you are?

it is not still a part of me. i don't "hate my birth gender" (it is also not "my birth gender" because i was not born a dude, i was born a baby, do babies even HAVE a gender? the world may never know), but to make that kind of blanket statement about other people doesn't really strike me as right, especially if you're using that as a rhetorical argument in favour of compelling trans people to disclose the fact they're trans to other partners.

Quote from: Gene24 on December 08, 2013, 11:19:04 PM
I agree with that to a point but there's a difference between having a right to be beautiful with a right to safety vs showing a bunch of skin in front of some men with nothing to lose by violating a woman.

no. no no no nON NON NO. stop. please stop. it is not a woman's fault, no matter what she is wearing, no matter what she is doing, if a dude decides to violate her boundaries and her consent and there is no grey area or wiggle room about this. holding the survivor of a sexual assault accountable for what happened to them is really inappropriate and wrong and it's awful.

I would disclose right away. If they want to do anything with me they're going to have to be okay we me being trans. Especially because I'm pre-op and possibly non-op. As a unicorn they will notice my horn! But I'm not into going stealth anyway. Before coming out, I hated having to pretend to act like a guy. And I guess I wouldn't want to flip it around and pretend like I'm a cis-woman either. I don't want to be afraid to hide my past and feel I have to lie to people about certain things. Then there is the issue of safety. If I were post-op, looking for a one night stand, and I felt the risk wasn't great, I might not say anything. But in any other situation, if sex or intimacy of any sort was on the table, I would disclose. I don't really have any qualms with embracing being a transsexual anymore, and neither should my partner. It's a big part of my life.

Quote from: transtrender on December 09, 2013, 12:56:13 AM
it is not a woman's fault, no matter what she is wearing, no matter what she is doing, if a dude decides to violate her boundaries and her consent and there is no grey area or wiggle room about this. holding the survivor of a sexual assault accountable for what happened to them is really inappropriate and wrong and it's awful.

Yes, of course.

But it there is a difference between saying "it's her fault" and "here are some sensible precautions to take to avoid becoming a statistic."

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 08, 2013, 05:20:10 PM
OK, I'm going to get myself into trouble and join the conversation.
I'm putting myself on the other side.
I imagine I'm a guy. I'm dating my precious girlfriend for a few months. I go to meet her parents (or kids. Or cousins. Or some family or old friends that means something to her.)
We have a lovely time, but there are some peculiar things I don't understand. They seem reluctant to talk about her past. Occasionally I see her shoot them a look that says "don't talk about that." I'm wondering why the subject of what my girlfriend was like as a kid is avoided.
Then one of them slips up. Uses the wrong pronoun or talks about what a cute boy she was when she was young. I put two and two together.
And I wonder how many other people know, and why she didn't trust me enough to tell me. How do you imagine I'd feel about all that?

I'd probably feel like saying "Poor cisgendered you, you conveniently get to live a relatively normal life and your biggest secret is that you volunteer for block watch." At any rate, I put emphasis on the lover can never know. I would break it off soon after if that happened to me. Whether they know in advance or find out in 20 years, they will view you differently from that point on. Small family + we don't see each other much because we don't get along is an all too common story these days that closes that loophole.

Quote from: transtrender on December 09, 2013, 12:56:13 AM
no. no no no nON NON NO. stop. please stop. it is not a woman's fault, no matter what she is wearing, no matter what she is doing, if a dude decides to violate her boundaries and her consent and there is no grey area or wiggle room about this. holding the survivor of a sexual assault accountable for what happened to them is really inappropriate and wrong and it's awful.

Yeah, that's what everybody wants everybody else to think right now, but nobody is lining up to be a rape martyr so every woman has the right to walk half naked through East Saint Louis in the name of being beautiful. I know I wouldn't. And the point is that you are free to do it if you choose, but women choose to play it safe for a reason. And there is no grey area or wiggle room once rape happens, the rapist goes away as they should and the victim stays a rape victim forever. There are no winners.

Quote from: Gene24 on December 09, 2013, 02:05:02 PM
Yeah, that's what everybody wants everybody else to think right now, but nobody is lining up to be a rape martyr so every woman has the right to walk half naked through East Saint Louis in the name of being beautiful. I know I wouldn't. And the point is that you are free to do it if you choose, but women choose to play it safe for a reason. And there is no grey area or wiggle room once rape happens, the rapist goes away as they should and the victim stays a rape victim forever. There are no winners.

Rapists will attack a woman wearing conservative clothing too.  The idea that covering yourself will save you from being attacked is really flawed.  If someone will attack a women wearing a skirt, you can guarantee that wearing jeans won't stop him either.  Clothing isn't the problem.  There are ways to protect yourself and prevention tips that people should practice, but mentioning proper attire just seems to place the blame on the victim to justify why the rapist happened to rape.  While I understand your point is to mention safe practices, I really don't think clothing makes much difference. 

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 09, 2013, 01:19:16 PM
Yes, of course.

But it there is a difference between saying "it's her fault" and "here are some sensible precautions to take to avoid becoming a statistic."

I can see that you are trying to be reasonable, but that is what is so insidious about this mindset.  In a very subtle way it is saying that if a woman publicly puts her sexuality on display she is just asking to be raped, which softly implies that she shares some (even if a small amount) of the responsibility if something happens to her.

Somebody above said that if a woman is raped, the man goes to prison as a rapist and the woman has to live the rest of her life being a rape victim and nobody wins, but that is not exactly true is it?  Most of the time the woman feels such shame and deep down thinks that maybe she does share some of the blame that she doesn't even report being assaulted.  So yes the woman lives her life as a victim, but the man faces no consequence for causing life-long harm to another human being.

This mindset contributes in whatever small or large way to victims not seeking or getting justice imo, and we should stop it.

Everyone is getting way way off topic. Hugs, Devlyn

You're going to cause this thread to need a trigger warning as well.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 09, 2013, 02:37:07 PM
Everyone is getting way way off topic. Hugs, Devlyn

This topic always goes in this direction because there is just an implication held by the word "obligation."  I'm def not saying it's a good thing (cuz it isn't) just that it is to be expected.

Hon, if the topic is going to be about rape, it needs to say so or have a warning. That's why you can't just hijack a thread to a triggering subject. Anyone can start an appropriately titled topic to discuss just about anything here, but we shouldn't be waylaying people. It's common courtesy. Hugs, Devlyn

it's the exact same train of thought, and they both come from the same place. the idea that trans women are obligated to tell their partners of their status (implication being that if they do not, they open themselves up for violence, and that they will have brought about that violence due to a lack of being "honest") is very similar to the idea that women are responsible for protecting themselves against sexual violence (with the unspoken suggestion that "irresponsibly" failing to follow these "rules" is a way of "asking for it"). they're both symptoms of the same mindset and if they're repeatedly coming up in these discussions, i don't think it's fair to say that survivors and allies of survivors can't defend themselves against the implicit accusations that come tied into those statements.

i am sensitive to the idea that this thread now doesn't have a cw for extended discussion about sexual violence, but i don't feel right or safe about the idea of dropping the conversation because, like sarah said, i think there's a need to contradict victim-blaming. if it would help, i think it wouldn't be a bad idea to split off the topic into one that does carry the proper warnings.

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on December 09, 2013, 02:40:24 PM
@Gene,
I think you're missing the fundamental problem here: ANY time you blame a woman even slightly for what others do to her, you are taking the responsibility OUT of the perpetrators hands and putting it into the victims and saying for rape and violence to stop women need to change. Just...NOO. That's wrongg. Nothing a woman does makes her responsible for that kind of treatment, regardless.
How can you expect men to change when you make excuses for them or say that they don't need to or it's the victims fault instead of their own?? Men are NOT animals, they have self control and the only way to teach them self control is to change rape culture and the only way to change rape culture is to hold men WHOLLY and completely responsible for their actiond.
End of stoory.

Well that's kinda the trade off for beauty and attraction. The point is that SOME men do act like animals, they are out there, it IS their fault when they rape someone, and women tend to be keen on not giving any potential rapists an opportunity. The actions of the masses are saying that it's better to exercise good judgement and to play it safe than to be a rape victim and I happen to agree with them.

Quote from: learningtolive on December 09, 2013, 02:33:35 PM
Rapists will attack a woman wearing conservative clothing too. The idea that covering yourself will save you from being attacked is really flawed.  If someone will attack a women wearing a skirt, you can guarantee that wearing jeans won't stop him either. Clothing isn't the problem. There are ways to protect yourself and prevention tips that people should practice, but mentioning proper attire just seems to place the blame on the victim to justify why the rapist happened to rape.  While I understand your point is to mention safe practices, I really don't think clothing makes much difference.

So are those the politics of it all? It seems like when I say that "Women can and frequently DO play it safe" has many people hearing "She has SOME degree of control, which means getting raped was her own fault to some degree."  I don't see why people feel that saying a woman is able to exercise caution makes a rapist less than 100% at fault for their crime. It definitely IS NOT victim blaming. I just cannot understand why it has to be an absolute...

A subject such as this is a personal one.  Disavowing another view is not only bad form, but not very understanding.

Closing thread for now.

 If rape was about 'hotness', elderly women in nightgowns would not be raped. Little girls in nightgowns would not be raped. But they are. Basically, no female regardless of her looks or age is safe from rape (neither are many boys). Men are human beings, not wildlife. If a man cannot control himself in the presence of a scantily clad woman, he needs to be locked up.

Further, I don't see a problem with this subject being discussed. The topic itself invites the 'victim blaming' issue. I imagine sexual assault would be a pertinent topic on any support board for women. Trigger warnings are a good idea, but the topic is important and needed for many here.

Thank you.

I feel this whole idea paints an unflattering and inaccurate picture of men too.

Also, last thing I want to say for now, going with FA's thoughts, sexual assault is about power not sex.   Sex is readily available for everybody to get without having to overpower and shatter somebody's world.   So that isn't what it's about, and how scantily clad you dress really has nothing to do with something like this happening to you.

So do you disclose to a partner or not is the question, by the way. Hugs, Devlyn

I feel that disclosure is up to the individual to decide for themselves

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 09, 2013, 08:44:40 PM
So do you disclose to a partner or not is the question, by the way. Hugs, Devlyn

I disclose. It's loud and proud on my OKCupid profile. I've read so many advice tips about how to disclose after one has started dating: be sure you're in a public place that's well lit and has a lot of potential witnesses, be sure your date isn't your transportation, and that they don't know where your car or home is. The consensus seems to be that disclosing after one starts dating can be dangerous.

I also have 2 adult kids who call me "Dad." I'm not about to change that. I'm proud to be the woman who is their father.

But I also disclose to weed out those persons who are not comfortable with trans persons. I'm out, and I'm not about to hide who or what I am. If this has been one of the main reasons that sex has been so unavailable to me, then so be it.

What works for me will not necessarily work for others. The choice to disclose is very much like the choice to come out as gay/bi/ace/queer/etc: it should be done if, when, and how one chooses to do so.

We should respect each other's choices in this regard.

Peace.

<3

Quote from: Jen on December 09, 2013, 08:40:46 PM
sexual assault is about power not sex.

That is exactly what it is about.

Spot on!

Edit:  Post removed.   Sarah7 (below) is right.  I was too lazy to read from my itty-bitty smartphone screen & it's not a topic I shoulda' been lazy about.  My apologies.  I'ma' shut up now & not butt in till I've learned somethin'....and only if I have somethin' halfway intelligent to say. 

on the none rape side of the comment its just that when you dont tell your partner about your past it hurts them because this is often the person you intend to marry or you are married too. its kind of like getting married and not telling your spouse your transsexual and may have the desire or need to transition one day and then you just spring it on them 10 years into the relationship. we all want to erase things from our past but we cant. the things we share with our partners should only bring us closer together. i was so scared to tell my fiancé about my less than perfect past but in the end it actually brought us closer together. but i know disclosure is not for everyone . just know when they find out on their own and not from you it will hurt their feelings and make them less likely to trust you.
and it really sucks too when you do that to people because then you start to feel bad too.

Good discussion. This topic does come up often but I am surprised at the new responders and the lack of conflict. There has been some conflict but it has been worse in previous threads.

Ok, I agree that it is not an obligation. Not at all. Would I disclose? I want to think I would. Do I disclose? Well, sort of. I told my wife well before transition started. Until I did, she thought I was cis. Clearly I could not transition and live with her without her noticing.

I also told a previous potential life partner and that disclosure ended our relationship leaving emotional scars that have faded all too slowly. Personal harm is not the only fear. There is also the risk of heartbreak

That said, most pre-transition trans-folk who are in relationships would not be faced with such a question. If a trans-male presents as a cis-male this is almost a non-issue in the eyes of society. There would be no expected obligatory disclosures.

So pre transition, it is not required. It is fairly obvious during transition (especially pre OP) depending on well, being clothed or not, and presentability.

So... when this question comes up, it seems to be primarily a post OP issue. That or a pre-OP issue if someone passes very well. In either case, there is no obligation.

There are a couple reasons why I encourage people to disclose this information. These have been touched upon already so I hope to find some new nuances to add to the discussion.

First, it potentially opens up your ENTIRE life to talk about your being trans with your partner. Failure to disclose being trans limits the stories you can tell... assuming they are fine with it. Sure many of us wish we were cis women but we aren't. I would find it odd if my partner avoided talking about the first 18, 28, 35 years of their life and I would worry about the intelligence of my partner if they did not share those feelings.

Second, as a lesbian and a former straight male, I can sympathize with the potential betrayal one might feel if they were never told, or told after intimacy, kissing, touching... etc. I would have never resorted to violence if the rug had been pulled out from under me, but it really could have messed me up... and I have always been TRANS. Sure, with age my sexual preferences have opened and matured like a fine wine, but there was a time when I saw things in black and white, and back then, penises were entirely gross, I only was attracted to cis women, even post OP was off limits to my sexual desires. These things did not interest me. They did not turn me on. I had no problem with others being into men and trans folk, and I enjoyed platonic friendships with men and trans folk... but sexual attraction is sexual attraction, and part of attraction is physical, especially when young and male. I just don't find it fair, if you are looking for something long term and intimate. The earlier, the better.

Now, I know this is not a simple issue and there are legitimate reasons to stay stealth in some situations. In generalized terms, it is usually a bad thing for the relationship. It is a huge elephant in the closet, and in this day and age, with social media finding newer and newer ways to bring one's past back to haunt them, it is becoming harder and harder for people to avoid their former life entirely. If you are in a relationship with a good person, they still may feel betrayed or find their attraction to you reduces greatly, they may even be grossed out. If you are with a bad person... well...

The chances of a potential person just going, "Oh, OK, cool." after you failed to tell them for a length of time are not that great, no matter how much we wish they were. And, the longer the relation lasts, the greater the chances they will find out. The later they learn, the greater the risk of betrayal.

This really is one of those YMMV things, but I thought I would finally chime in on one of these threads.

Quote from: Tori on December 10, 2013, 12:49:02 AM
Good discussion. This topic does come up often but I am surprised at the new responders and the lack of conflict. There has been some conflict but it has been worse in previous threads.

Ok, I agree that it is not an obligation. Not at all. Would I disclose? I want to think I would. Do I disclose? Well, sort of. I told my wife well before transition started. Until I did, she thought I was cis. Clearly I could not transition and live with her without her noticing.

I also told a previous potential life partner and that disclosure ended our relationship leaving emotional scars that have faded all too slowly. Personal harm is not the only fear. There is also the risk of heartbreak

That said, most pre-transition trans-folk who are in relationships would not be faced with such a question. If a trans-male presents as a cis-male this is almost a non-issue in the eyes of society. There would be no expected obligatory disclosures.

So pre transition, it is not required. It is fairly obvious during transition (especially pre OP) depending on well, being clothed or not, and presentability.

So... when this question comes up, it seems to be primarily a post OP issue. That or a pre-OP issue if someone passes very well. In either case, there is no obligation.

There are a couple reasons why I encourage people to disclose this information. These have been touched upon already so I hope to find some new nuances to add to the discussion.

First, it potentially opens up your ENTIRE life to talk about your being trans with your partner. Failure to disclose being trans limits the stories you can tell... assuming they are fine with it. Sure many of us wish we were cis women but we aren't. I would find it odd if my partner avoided talking about the first 18, 28, 35 years of their life and I would worry about the intelligence of my partner if they did not share those feelings.

Second, as a lesbian and a former straight male, I can sympathize with the potential betrayal one might feel if they were never told, or told after intimacy, kissing, touching... etc. I would have never resorted to violence if the rug had been pulled out from under me, but it really could have messed me up... and I have always been TRANS. Sure, with age my sexual preferences have opened and matured like a fine wine, but there was a time when I saw things in black and white, and back then, penises were entirely gross, I only was attracted to cis women, even post OP was off limits to my sexual desires. These things did not interest me. They did not turn me on. I had no problem with others being into men and trans folk, and I enjoyed platonic friendships with men and trans folk... but sexual attraction is sexual attraction, and part of attraction is physical, especially when young and male. I just don't find it fair, if you are looking for something long term and intimate. The earlier, the better.

Now, I know this is not a simple issue and there are legitimate reasons to stay stealth in some situations. In generalized terms, it is usually a bad thing for the relationship. It is a huge elephant in the closet, and in this day and age, with social media finding newer and newer ways to bring one's past back to haunt them, it is becoming harder and harder for people to avoid their former life entirely. If you are in a relationship with a good person, they still may feel betrayed or find their attraction to you reduces greatly, they may even be grossed out. If you are with a bad person... well...

The chances of a potential person just going, "Oh, OK, cool." after you failed to tell them for a length of time are not that great, no matter how much we wish they were. And, the longer the relation lasts, the greater the chances they will find out. The later they learn, the greater the risk of betrayal.

This really is one of those YMMV things, but I thought I would finally chime in on one of these threads.

Tori you said it, i know when i told my fella he was surprised. but it was a good way to start the conversation on my past and his too. in the end he was fine with that but not so much with the bigger issues  ;D

Quote from: Valerie on December 09, 2013, 10:23:40 PM
Edit:  Post removed.   Sarah7 (below) is right.  I was too lazy to read from my itty-bitty smartphone screen & it's not a topic I shoulda' been lazy about.  My apologies.  I'ma' shut up now & not butt in till I've learned somethin'....and only if I have somethin' halfway intelligent to say.

Do not let one person's opinion drag you down. One person took issue with your posting. They said nothing of your point, they just invalidated it because you had not read the entire thread, which is a fallacious argument. You don't need to read this thread to tell us your cis perspective on the question.

You clearly stated you had not read the entire thread and were commenting from your current perspective. You never said your opinion was set in stone nor did you say you never intended to read the entire thread.

I read the whole thread, it took 15-20 minutes. Not everybody has that much time. You were honest.

No doubt, others have commented without reading this entire thread. If memory serves, some admitted it but, perhaps since they are trans, they got a pass...

It can be easy for us to take advantage of this forum. All we have to do is act offended and the "Support nature" of this website can kick in. This is a good thing as many trans folk are prone to depression and have varied triggers. Yet, it can lead to confusion when someone just takes offense when a differing opinion is offered... it can sometimes feel like navigating a mine field. "Did I trigger them, or do they just disagree?"

But I digress...

Hugs,
Tori

Im pretty sure I d let them know...

I wouldnt want to be with someone who dislikes lgbt people anyways...

Quote from: FalsePrincess on December 10, 2013, 04:16:55 PM
Im pretty sure I d let them know...

I wouldnt want to be with someone who dislikes lgbt people anyways...

I am pretty sure I see your point, but could you clarify?

Just because someone does not want to be in an intimate relation with a trans person does not mean they dislike LBGT people.

I like donkeys. I don't want an intimate relationship with one.

I hate tomatoes, but I respect many a tomato lover.

If someone is not physically attracted to trans people it does not mean they dislike them. You may miss out on some wonderful potential friendships if you fail to realize this. Many trans folk are already short on friends simply because we can put ourselves into social sequestration.

I have a few questions for those of you who don't disclose.  Do you feel comfortable with keeping this from a serious partner?  I think the word obligated is a bit strong, but do you feel like it's something you can keep from a  serious partner and maintain a healthy relationship?  Again, I respect the feelings of everyone here as it is a personal issue and we all have the right to disclose or not.  Nonetheless, I wonder how a healthy relationship can develop when you feel the need to hide something from your partner.  I've never been in a serious relationship before, but I imagine I'd like my partner to be willing to be open about anything and everything.   Still, I acknowledge that I haven't been in these shoes yet and will probably struggle myself with the disclosure dilemma when the time comes.  And for all I know there could be successful relationships built on trust without disclosure.  So, I admit that I'm a bit ignorant on this topic which is why I ask.  To be honest, I wish I didn't feel a "personal obligation" to tell because I fear I'll never find someone if do disclose. 

P.S.  Please don't take my questions as offensive or judgemental.  I respect both sides of this.  I'm just curious about your perspective and would like hear your experience.

Quote from: Tori on December 10, 2013, 04:35:15 PM
I am pretty sure I see your point, but could you clarify?

Just because someone does not want to be in an intimate relation with a trans person does not mean they dislike LBGT people.

I like donkeys. I don't want an intimate relationship with one.

I hate tomatoes, but I respect many a tomato lover.

If someone is not physically attracted to trans people it does not mean they dislike them. You may miss out on some wonderful potential friendships if you fail to realize this. Many trans folk are already short on friends simply because we can put ourselves into social sequestration.

Hhhhmm yeah I guess you are right , still though, why would I want to be with someone who would leave me when he/she finds out im trans?
In the end its about love isnt it?
Even if someone hates the lgbt for example wouldnt he try to understand and reconsider if he loved you ?

Im still early in transitioning so all this is hypothesis , I dont if Ill actually be like this...

But id rather have no friends than be with people who would suddently hate me when they find out about my past...
If they like me as a friend then its ok , I was talking about the potential hate though and not the "lets just be friends thing"

kinda,,,i guess...

Do not confuse attraction and intimacy with love.

I love my Dad. I am not attracted to him.

Imagine not wanting to be around a cis lesbian because she is not attracted to men. Is that not the same type of thing as not wanting to associate with a man who is not attracted to trans people?

I have countless gay friends, and I have even had the opportunity to be intimate with a few of them, alas, I am not physically attracted to men. Yet, they are still friends. I do not hate them. It does not make me a bad person. Wouldn't it be worse if I led them on?

Edit: Either I missed the last lines of your post or you made a stealth edit. Either way, it seems we agree.

Stealth edit lol
I m not a ninja so I didnt do that  :P

Anyway yeah we agree, and that kinda of thing once happened to me with a friend , I told him i like him and he said that he is not into that so lets just stay friends,,,Im ok with that , but Im not ok with someone hating on me etc
thats why Id let my partner know that Im trans, to make sure that he wouldnt hate me ...and not for his sake but for mine...

In the former topic I got a lil hurt, and irritated. however I feel I can post something of worth after reading all the replies multiple times over. This is my opinion and from my observations this truthfully is what I believe. First I feel the word obligation is a bit ominous being it has a tone to it that says "hey if you don't do this, your wrong!!" to it.  I believe that disclosure isn't for everyone, and there isn't nothing wrong with that, some people sure it is while others it isn't whether they wish to talk about or not no-one should have to feel that their opinion or what they believe in be put to the test or made to feel that their opinion is misguided or wrong. We as individuals who had to fight for what we feel and believe in should understand this most of all and if not than the ones throwing the one-sided views are no better than those who oppose anything we believe.   
1st It is totally dependent person to person. I for one feel disclosure is not for me. I had a very traumatic past that started at 4 years of age filled with bad experiences, I didn't have jr-high, or high school as I never went. Nor did I have friends that I spoke with or hung out in those times, after the age of 9 if I wasn't being moved town to town I was being moved hospital to hospital. when I reached 19 I started building something but at 21 I ran away and restarted as my self fulltime female so most of my life up to date has been on the female side of the boarder. I tried having a couple ts/tg/gay friend but it never worked out for me for one reason or another.
in total honesty I have maybe 5-6 friends who know I am tg. and they don't see me any other way than female- so no disclosure isn't for everyone.
2nd its not as bad or as big of a deal as everyone feels, I have talked to a few people I know about keeping traumatic secrets from their significant other and they all feel if its not causing an immediate issue than no it doesn't matter and they wouldn't bring it up.
3rd I am fortunate I have a bf that is kind and doesn't mind me not disclosing everything as he knows it is something that deeply bothers me , the children thing has been brought up and even if I were cis I wouldn't be able to carry if I wanted due to health issues, so he brought up adoption as an option.
Being trans has not been a good experience for me. In my past pre-transition it brought me nothing but confusion, pain, and a lot of bad experiences. I know some embrace it and live in the experience I applaud those and am happy for them but this isn't me, I wish I hadn't been born with this problem. That being said it has taught me a lot that I am thankful for but even those things don't change the opinion that if god came down and offered me to be reborn anew and correct that I would almost certainly take up the offer.
These are just my feelings and opinions, if you feel like disclosure is something you want to do for various reasons than good for you, if not terrific, its whatever as long as your happy and comfortable with your life. In the end the only obligation one has is to themselves and to what they believe is right which only applies to them and them alone.

I'm thinking it boils down to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." If you would be OK with finding out accidentally years down the road that your partner is transgender and felt you had no need to know, then don't disclose.

If you would be upset finding out years down the road that your partner is transgender, disclose.

My personal feelings are that I'm not the one who gets to decide for someone else what they're comfortable with.

Quote from: calico on December 10, 2013, 07:30:34 PM
In the former topic I got a lil hurt, and irritated. however I feel I can post something of worth after reading all the replies multiple times over. This is my opinion and from my observations this truthfully is what I believe. First I feel the word obligation is a bit ominous being it has a tone to it that says "hey if you don't do this, your wrong!!" to it.  I believe that disclosure isn't for everyone, and there isn't nothing wrong with that, some people sure it is while others it isn't whether they wish to talk about or not no-one should have to feel that their opinion or what they believe in be put to the test or made to feel that their opinion is misguided or wrong. We as individuals who had to fight for what we feel and believe in should understand this most of all and if not than the ones throwing the one-sided views are no better than those who oppose anything we believe.   
1st It is totally dependent person to person. I for one feel disclosure is not for me. I had a very traumatic past that started at 4 years of age filled with bad experiences, I didn't have jr-high, or high school as I never went. Nor did I have friends that I spoke with or hung out in those times, after the age of 9 if I wasn't being moved town to town I was being moved hospital to hospital. when I reached 19 I started building something but at 21 I ran away and restarted as my self fulltime female so most of my life up to date has been on the female side of the boarder. I tried having a couple ts/tg/gay friend but it never worked out for me for one reason or another.
in total honesty I have maybe 5-6 friends who know I am tg. and they don't see me any other way than female- so no disclosure isn't for everyone.
2nd its not as bad or as big of a deal as everyone feels, I have talked to a few people I know about keeping traumatic secrets from their significant other and they all feel if its not causing an immediate issue than no it doesn't matter and they wouldn't bring it up.
3rd I am fortunate I have a bf that is kind and doesn't mind me not disclosing everything as he knows it is something that deeply bothers me , the children thing has been brought up and even if I were cis I wouldn't be able to carry if I wanted due to health issues, so he brought up adoption as an option.
Being trans has not been a good experience for me. In my past pre-transition it brought me nothing but confusion, pain, and a lot of bad experiences. I know some embrace it and live in the experience I applaud those and am happy for them but this isn't me, I wish I hadn't been born with this problem. That being said it has taught me a lot that I am thankful for but even those things don't change the opinion that if god came down and offered me to be reborn anew and correct that I would almost certainly take up the offer.
These are just my feelings and opinions, if you feel like disclosure is something you want to do for various reasons than good for you, if not terrific, its whatever as long as your happy and comfortable with your life. In the end the only obligation one has is to themselves and to what they believe is right which only applies to them and them alone.

Thank you very much for sharing. I can very much relate to how you feel about being trans.  To this day, I still struggle with the fact I was born this way.  And I do hope to live in stealth in the future without telling anyone that doesn't need to know.  The one thing that I suffer with is whether or not I should tell someone I date.  It's not a matter of being "out" and letting others know about my past, but I feel wrong about not telling someone.  Yet, I don't want someone to know about my past because I really would like to leave the trans thing behind one day and just live a normal life like any other girl.  So, I'm very much conflicted all because of this "personal obligation" that I give myself.  I appreciate your answer and it gives me something to think about.  And your right that it is a decision we must all make for ourselves.  I'm glad it's been working for you. :)

Quote from: learningtolive on December 10, 2013, 04:47:23 PM
I have a few questions for those of you who don't disclose.  Do you feel comfortable with keeping this from a serious partner?  I think the word obligated is a bit strong, but do you feel like it's something you can keep from a  serious partner and maintain a healthy relationship?  Again, I respect the feelings of everyone here as it is a personal issue and we all have the right to disclose or not.  Nonetheless, I wonder how a healthy relationship can develop when you feel the need to hide something from your partner.  .   

LTL I will answer your question but please allow me to be a lil bit vague because of certain issues I have. Yes I am comfortable with keeping my past and that I am trans away from my Bf, why? because before I was fulltime female I had nothing other than trauma, and bad experiences..  sure maybe there was a few good moments but not any that are worth bring up and if I did they could be seen as a girl just growing up.
the other reason is if I brought it up and it was out it would then be an unhealthy relationship because of 2 primary reasons 1. it would unlock a lot of doors that make me start having issues that I took a long time to get under control. 2. I would feel that he would see me differently even if he didn't admit to it, this again is part of the 1st reason

Quote from: learningtolive on December 10, 2013, 04:47:23 PMAnd for all I know there could be successful relationships built on trust without disclosure

This is true there are, in my relationship he actually knows there is something I don't want to talk about.... ever, and he understand that it is because it would hurt me to much to discuss or bring it up so he understands and respects that board and says its not important because it isn't worth know if it brings me pain and issues. if it doesn't effect the relationship it isn't important to worry about.
and after asking around the act of non disclosure between couples is not as uncommon as we all think or thought.
as far as the possible option  of children well, even if I was cis I would be able to anyway because of certain health issues (which he knows about)

I will say this I do have 1 concern as of late and that is we are fixing to go to my parents at Christmas for a couple days, but I was reassured to not worry by my mother and other family members we shall see how this goes :-\

Thanks LTL I see you posted while I was answering yours questions, I am glad it is working out as well, I kinda feel also is if he found out by accident that well... I don't think it would bother him that bad we may have to talk a lil but I feel it would be able to be worked out.

Quote from: calico on December 10, 2013, 07:54:29 PM
Thanks LTL I see you posted while I was answering yours questions, I am glad it is working out as well, I kinda feel also is if he found out by accident that well... I don't think it would bother him that bad we may have to talk a lil but I feel it would be able to be worked out.

I think your mental and physical heath is the most important. Love is an amazing healer

Quote from: calico on December 10, 2013, 07:50:54 PM
I will say this I do have 1 concern as of late and that is we are fixing to go to my parents at Christmas for a couple days, but I was reassured to not worry by my mother and other family members we shall see how this goes :-\

I hope your family respects your right to privacy.  They have no business to dislcose something for you.  Do you think that will be an issue?  In any case, be sure to deal with any old family photos and make sure no one shares any damaging old stories (you know how family functions can be).  Just so he doesn't start piecing together something you don't want him to.  I know I'm going to have a tough time getting my mother to take down old photos of me.  That's probably a battle I won't win. 

Quote from: learningtolive on December 10, 2013, 08:03:25 PM
I hope your family respects your right to privacy.  They have no business to dislcose something for you.  Do you think that will be an issue?  In any case, be sure to deal with any old family photos and make sure no one shares any damaging old stories (you know how family functions can be).  Just so he doesn't start piecing together something you don't want him to.  I know I'm going to have a tough time getting my mother to take down old photos of me.  That's probably a battle I won't win.

Im sure Calico will be fine. her mom is really backing her up with everything and moms know how to keep secrets. Learning to love i hope your mom respects you enough to at least remove those photos for the holiday.

Quote from: learningtolive on December 10, 2013, 08:03:25 PM
I hope your family respects your right to privacy.  They have no business to dislcose something for you.  Do you think that will be an issue?  In any case, be sure to deal with any old family photos and make sure no one shares any damaging old stories (you know how family functions can be).  Just so he doesn't start piecing together something you don't want him to.  I know I'm going to have a tough time getting my mother to take down old photos of me.  That's probably a battle I won't win.

I am pretty sure there will not be any issues and my fears are probably unwarranted.  Picture are long  gone what there are are not where they are seen so I don't think I have anything honestly be concerned about just my self paranoia kicking in. Yea all my mom wants is my happiness so im sure there will be no issue

Quote from: gowiththeflow on December 10, 2013, 08:06:37 PM
Im sure Calico will be fine. her mom is really backing her up with everything and moms know how to keep secrets. Learning to love i hope your mom respects you enough to at least remove those photos for the holiday.

I live with my mother and am in the midst of transitioning.  When the time comes, I hope I can convince her to remove the photos, but I doubt that will ever happen.  She has tons of family photos and I'm going to have to get used to the fact that they will always be there.  She is having a really tough time with everything.  I just can't help thinking about what will happen if I ever start dating and want to bring them to meet my mom.  Whether I disclose or not, I really don't want my "boy mode" pictures all over the place.  There is so much I will be willing to share.  In any event, that's a future argument to be had, lol. 

Quote from: calico on December 10, 2013, 09:36:23 PM
I am pretty sure there will not be any issues and my fears are probably unwarranted.  Picture are long  gone what there are are not where they are seen so I don't think I have anything honestly be concerned about just my self paranoia kicking in. Yea all my mom wants is my happiness so im sure there will be no issue

That's great!  I'm sure it will be okay.  :)

learningtolove im sorry about that. i guess i got lucky in the fact that my mom doesn't like me so she never even cared about me transitioning or anything. i know she was fast to change the pictures and make new ones to put on the wall. (actually was a good idea). my dad hated it when i came out and had a really hard time for quite a while like your mom. but in the end im sure your mom will realize its just not worth the fight and give in. if your still living with her thats a really really good sign. just like steve urkle your wearing her down  ;)
hugs i reallly like you girl you seem down to earth.

Well I imagine if you have not had SRS you really have no other choice but to tell the person your gender because hey they sure as hell are going to find out.

Now if you have SRS. I would say no your not obligated to do anything you don't want to do. Some people can make some compelling points about why you should tell the other person but then those usually come from people that have yet to have SRS. Go figure....

Quote from: Katie on December 11, 2013, 09:09:44 AM
Well I imagine if you have not had SRS you really have no other choice but to tell the person your gender because hey they sure as hell are going to find out.

Now if you have SRS. I would say no your not obligated to do anything you don't want to do. Some people can make some compelling points about why you should tell the other person but then those usually come from people that have yet to have SRS. Go figure....

Katie,

I realize you're post op and our experiences are different and you have much to contribute; however,  you can sometimes speak in a way that can be interpreted ad condescending to those of us that are pre-op as though our feelings are irrelevant or that we are lesser. Perhaps you don't mean to, but it can come across that way.  You were once in these shoes yourself.  And while I haven't had srs yet, I doubt I will be a different person.  I've always been female and the person I am. The surgery will only make me feel happier about my body, but that doesn't change that I am me.  Some of us tell or believe we should do so because we feel that's the right thing for us, not necessarily because we must.  Maybe my opinion will change when I'm post op and stealth, but i know post ops that feel the same as I do now.  I don't see that changing for me.  But again I respect everyone's right to do what is best for themselves.

Quote from: learningtolive on December 11, 2013, 09:49:51 AM
And while I haven't had srs yet, I doubt I will be a different person.  I've always been female and the person I am. The surgery will only make me feel happier about my body, but that doesn't change that I am me. 

You don't think that altering the entire way your treated and viewed my every single person in the world not to mention altering your body's internal balance will change you. I like you LTL. I like you a lot but you really need to consider in five year's time you may (and prolly will be) and entirely different person. I think this is the thing trans people look over most. How are you going to deal with those changes when their pointed out and possibly used against you? Meaning by your mom. If your just talking about this silly birth gender question then yes that may stay the same.

It's a simple question that everyone is making hard. If you're pre-op you must disclose at some point. If not, it's up to you. It's no one else's business to say anything otherwise or to poke and prod people. No offense but most of the moralizing on this thread is from pre-op women telling post-op women if they don't disclose they can't have a healthy relationship. That ain't true.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on December 11, 2013, 11:04:14 AM
You don't think that altering the entire way your treated and viewed my every single person in the world not to mention altering your body's internal balance will change you. I like you LTL. I like you a lot but you really need to consider in five year's time you may (and prolly will be) and entirely different person. I think this is the thing trans people look over most. How are you going to deal with those changes when their pointed out and possibly used against you? Meaning by your mom. If your just talking about this silly birth gender question then yes that may stay the same.

It's a simple question that everyone is making hard. If you're pre-op you must disclose at some point. If not, it's up to you. It's no one else's business to say anything otherwise or to poke and prod people. No offense but most of the moralizing on this thread is from pre-op women telling post-op women if they don't disclose they can't have a healthy relationship. That ain't true.

First, I am not moralizing.  I think it's up to everyone to make that choice on their own.  I don't think it will work for me and I have my concerns that it can work, but i don't judge how anyone decides to handle it.  In fact,  I sympathize because I wish I didn't feel obligated to disclose. And I add in that I haven't yet been in those shoes, so there is an ignorance on my part.  Hence, the questions.

Sure, things will change and people will treat me differently.   I've already been experiencing that.  For the most part, it's very nice.  Still, i am me.  Perhaps I will change as things continue.   Without reading the future it's never certain.   My mom has pointed out my changes and is really struggling.   It sucjs, but i hope we can adjust and grow from it.  At the end of the day, I will still be myself, just a more experienced and more confident version.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on December 11, 2013, 11:04:14 AM
You don't think that altering the entire way your treated and viewed my every single person in the world not to mention altering your body's internal balance will change you. I like you LTL. I like you a lot but you really need to consider in five year's time you may (and prolly will be) and entirely different person. I think this is the thing trans people look over most. How are you going to deal with those changes when their pointed out and possibly used against you? Meaning by your mom. If your just talking about this silly birth gender question then yes that may stay the same.

It's a simple question that everyone is making hard. If you're pre-op you must disclose at some point. If not, it's up to you. It's no one else's business to say anything otherwise or to poke and prod people. No offense but most of the moralizing on this thread is from pre-op women telling post-op women if they don't disclose they can't have a healthy relationship. That ain't true.

This is very very true!! I have read other stories of this happening as well as my own.

Before transition and even during I would of told anyone pre-op or post that you HAVE to tell someone...it is a moral obligation!

Now 2 1/2 years FT and I would tell anyone that it is up to them....and I do consider myself to have decent morals and virtues. It shouldn't be a shock but when you transition into another gender you really do become that gender!! Having surgery will only reinforce the current gender you are transitioning too.

Now in saying this it doesn't help that I still feel like I am deceiving another of an important trait about me....I have to do what I have too...I could die tomorrow what good is it going to do trying to find someone that I am attracted  only because I have no choice...this was what I struggled with when my attraction changed to men, I still tried to pursue lesbians because I felt this was my only choice.

Quote from: Katie on December 11, 2013, 09:09:44 AM
Well I imagine if you have not had SRS you really have no other choice but to tell the person your gender because hey they sure as hell are going to find out.

Now if you have SRS. I would say no your not obligated to do anything you don't want to do. Some people can make some compelling points about why you should tell the other person but then those usually come from people that have yet to have SRS. Go figure....

Yes this will eventually be true...but it doesn't mean you have to disclose the very first time you communicate...unless you want to hop into bed right away.

Quote from: learningtolive on December 11, 2013, 11:18:48 AM
First, I am not moralizing.  I think it's up to everyone to make that choice on their own.  I don't think it will work for me and I have my concerns that it can work, but i don't judge how anyone decides to handle it.  In fact,  I sympathize because I wish I didn't feel obligated to disclose. And I add in that I haven't yet been in those shoes, so there is an ignorance on my part.  Hence, the questions.

Sure, things will change and people will treat me differently.   I've already been experiencing that.  For the most part, it's very nice.  Still, i am me.  Perhaps I will change as things continue.   Without reading the future it's never certain.   My mom has pointed out my changes and is really struggling.   It sucjs, but i hope we can adjust and grow from it.  At the end of the day, I will still be myself, just a more experienced and more confident version.

Yes, if you read my post up above....this is also how I once felt and still do a bit!! My morals and my need to just survive to conflict with one another during times like this.

You do change 200% more than you would ever think....I remember before transitioning and reading about pre-op women that would sit to pee, I thought to myself....why feel the need to do that?? I will if I have to but the heck if I will all the time. NOW, I can't imagine what it would be like to stand and pee....I would not even do it in an emergency...no other women can...why should I.....but its not something I ever intended to do...and I don't do it to feel more like a women...I do it because I am a women!!

this might sound weird ,but maybe not. I find it pretty awesome to hear the statement that you have to sit down to pee

Quote from: Just Shelly on December 11, 2013, 12:59:52 PM
This is very very true!! I have read other stories of this happening as well as my own.

Before transition and even during I would of told anyone pre-op or post that you HAVE to tell someone...it is a moral obligation!

Now 2 1/2 years FT and I would tell anyone that it is up to them....and I do consider myself to have decent morals and virtues. It shouldn't be a shock but when you transition into another gender you really do become that gender!! Having surgery will only reinforce the current gender you are transitioning too.

Now in saying this it doesn't help that I still feel like I am deceiving another of an important trait about me....I have to do what I have too...I could die tomorrow what good is it going to do trying to find someone that I am attracted  only because I have no choice...this was what I struggled with when my attraction changed to men, I still tried to pursue lesbians because I felt this was my only choice.
Yes this will eventually be true...but it doesn't mean you have to disclose the very first time you communicate...unless you want to hop into bed right away.

Yes, if you read my post up above....this is also how I once felt and still do a bit!! My morals and my need to just survive to conflict with one another during times like this.

You do change 200% more than you would ever think....I remember before transitioning and reading about pre-op women that would sit to pee, I thought to myself....why feel the need to do that?? I will if I have to but the heck if I will all the time. NOW, I can't imagine what it would be like to stand and pee....I would not even do it in an emergency...no other women can...why should I.....but its not something I ever intended to do...and I don't do it to feel more like a women...I do it because I am a women!!

I respect your view and everyone else's.  Like I said many times before, we all have our own path and have the right to follow it as we choose.

Having said that, I really don't see transitioning as changing into another gender or becoming a woman.  I see it as a way to embrace what I've always been.  Honestly, I don't get the becoming female notion.  I've always identified as such and physically transitioning is not changing that, only embracing it. There is really nothing for me to become.  While it's likely that transitioning will bring about many changes, I doubt the core of who I am or how I perceive the world will.  I've never been a masculine person and don't feel the need to relearn anything nor do I think that anyone has to do it.  Sure, it will be nice to have some more freedom to express myself as I desire without being self conscious (which I often feel and create walls for this reason), but it's not like my starting point was ever masculine, lol.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of changes physically and socially that I would welcome, but it doesn't make me feel that I'm a different person internally.  At the end of the day, we should be who we are.  Whatever that is.  Transitioning shouldn't be about making changes to who we are, in my own opinion, but rather embracing who we are.   

In any event, this is a bit of tangential conversation.  Again, I don't judge anyone that hasn't told their partner.  It's their choice and right to make that decision for themselves.  And I welcome the perspective of anyone in a relationship without disclosure.  I'd like to hear their thoughts, so I can form a better point of view on the subject. 

Quote from: learningtolive on December 11, 2013, 04:53:36 PM
I respect your view and everyone else's.  Like I said many times before, we all have our own path and have the right to follow it as we choose.

Having said that, I really don't see transitioning as changing into another gender or becoming a woman.  I see it as a way to embrace what I've always been.  Honestly, I don't get the becoming female notion.  I've always identified as such and physically transitioning is not changing that, only embracing it. There is really nothing for me to become.  While it's likely that transitioning will bring about many changes, I doubt the core of who I am or how I perceive the world will.  I've never been a masculine person and don't feel the need to relearn anything nor do I think that anyone has to do it.  Sure, it will be nice to have some more freedom to express myself as I desire without being self conscious (which I often feel and create walls for this reason), but it's not like my starting point was ever masculine, lol.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of changes physically and socially that I would welcome, but it doesn't make me feel that I'm a different person internally.  At the end of the day, we should be who we are.  Whatever that is.  Transitioning shouldn't be about making changes to who we are, in my own opinion, but rather embracing who we are.   

In any event, this is a bit of tangential conversation.  Again, I don't judge anyone that hasn't told their partner.  It's their choice and right to make that decision for themselves.  And I welcome the perspective of anyone in a relationship without disclosure.  I'd like to hear their thoughts, so I can form a better point of view on the subject.

I think most here share that same point of view. I have always felt that I was a woman but forced myself to be a man...quite frankly I did a fairly good job at it, I was and still am a really good father (parent).

The main thing your missing and you will understand this a few months or years down the road is YOU ARE NOT TREATED AS A WOMAN This and this alone will change your perception of yourself. I cannot tell you how much I feel like the same person I have always been...but at the same time I am completely different!!

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 11, 2013, 05:22:50 PM
Not from you LTL, but from this thread here are some comments by pre-ops on the topic of stealth post-ops choosing whether or not to disclose:

So, ya, I feel a wee bit judged. Particularly irritating frankly, is that some of these quotes are from people who were in long term relationships pre-transition and failed to disclose to their partners for many years that they were trans. I am not going to judge that situation. It is entirely foreign to me. I am going to trust that they tried to act in as ethical a manner as they were able. I wish they would trust me the same way.

I usually speak out against posts like Katie's that suggest pre/non-ops don't have the right to an opinion. I fought really hard on the non-op side, even though I was post-op, during some of the "trans elitest wars" that happened on this forum. I feel very strongly that we all have a right to live our own life, in the body that is right for us without being judged or disrespected. And on this issue... I feel like the disrespect is flowing in the other direction. And I get why post-ops get more and more reluctant to post about their experiences with non-disclosure, because the above quotes make it feel pretty damn unwelcome. Sorry. Just the way it feels.

It is very easy moralize decisions that you do not have to make or do not have the option of making.  That is why cis peeps and pre/non-ops seem so apt to say you must always disclose.

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 11, 2013, 05:22:50 PM
Not from you LTL, but from this thread here are some comments by pre-ops on the topic of stealth post-ops choosing whether or not to disclose:

So, ya, I feel a wee bit judged. Particularly irritating frankly, is that some of these quotes are from people who were in long term relationships pre-transition and failed to disclose to their partners for many years that they were trans. I am not going to judge that situation. It is entirely foreign to me. I am going to trust that they tried to act in as ethical a manner as they were able. I wish they would trust me the same way.

I usually speak out against posts like Katie's that suggest pre/non-ops don't have the right to an opinion. I fought really hard on the non-op side, even though I was post-op, during some of the "trans elitest wars" that happened on this forum. I feel very strongly that we all have a right to live our own life, in the body that is right for us without being judged or disrespected. And on this issue... I feel like the disrespect is flowing in the other direction. And I get why post-ops get more and more reluctant to post about their experiences with non-disclosure, because the above quotes make it feel pretty damn unwelcome. Sorry. Just the way it feels.

I hear you.  Those are some choice words.  Like I said, I'm conflicted on this issue myself, so I don't judge anyone for choosing what's right for them.  Everyone has the right to make the decision on their own. 

Quote from: Just Shelly on December 11, 2013, 05:37:40 PM
I think most here share that same point of view. I have always felt that I was a woman but forced myself to be a man...quite frankly I did a fairly good job at it, I was and still am a really good father (parent).

The main thing your missing and you will understand this a few months or years down the road is YOU ARE NOT TREATED AS A WOMAN This and this alone will change your perception of yourself. I cannot tell you how much I feel like the same person I have always been...but at the same time I am completely different!!

Hey Shelly,

I think are disagreement is based more in semantics than anything.  Truthfully, we can probably agree on most points.  I have no doubt that I will grow and develop as a person.  I just doubt my core beliefs will as well.  In my head, I would love the ability to not disclose, but I don't think I'd feel comfortable not doing so.  Again, it's not a knock on anyone else.  I just don't think I could make that work for myself, as tempting as it is, once I'm post-op and fully stealth.  It will be hard for me, but I feel like it's something I must do.  Like I said, it's a very personal choice and we must choose what's right for us. 

no need for anyone to feel judged. once you close that laptop or put your smartphones away the topics on susans are out of sight out of mind. you get to go out and live your life, tell or dont tell who ever you want. i have noticed people tend to have alot of negative things to say in general online. i say just chill and go with the flow. you tell if and when you want to.just live your life and have a little fun with it. no need to worry so much about some things 8)

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 11, 2013, 07:36:00 PM
I've been on this forum some time now. Fairly consistently for a good 3 years. I joined just after the reputation reset, which means every single one of the 116 points on my profile is from a specific, individual user. I don't really like the rep system very much, and argued against it when it was temporarily disabled at one point. But it gives some indication of the amount of effort I've put into this forum to try to help folks, to try to keep them feeling safe and secure here.

Some of those quotes above and other negative comments in this thread are from people who I've defended or supported or assisted. Some of them are among those who gave me that 116. There are people who aren't anonymous folks on the internets. There are people who I know something about their lives, who I genuinely respect, and who I thought respected me. They are part of a community that has a hard-earned reputation for welcoming everyone and anyone, as long as they respect everyone else.

So, ya, it does feel like a bit of a betrayal. To watch those same people stand up and tell me "this is what you should do, this is right and this is wrong, and how can you even doubt the difference?" To decide for me what I should be doing in my life, to tell me and people I care for that we are immoral, bad, wrong, stupid, unsafe for living our lives as we choose.

And this is hardly the first time. This is a topic that rises again and again to offer the opportunity for folks to spit out their judgements on us, to decide if the lives we live are worthy. To make me doubt if I have real allies here.

It makes me wonder, the years that I've fought to make this space safer, if I wasn't just fighting to make it safer for one group at the expense of another, at the expense of my own. Maybe there really are uncrossable lines between those who have surgery and live their lives like I do, and those who don't or haven't. Maybe all I've done is betray my own kind.

I don't think the issue is post op vs pre op. There are plenty of post op women that would agree with those quotes and plenty of pre ops that disagree.  This comes down to opinions which surgery status is irrelevant.   I hate silly distinctions.  I'm pre op today but will be post op when I can.  Why do we have to break into groups?  Should the current me not defend the future me and vice versa?  I do agree that this is the right of every individual and respect the stealth lifestyle.   It's something I aspire to with the exception of disclosure to a partner.  Live for you.

But, Sarah, isn't this what someone does to someone else if they don't tell them?

"To decide for me what I should be doing in my life"

Hugs, Devlyn

Your rancor sucks. Defend who you want.  I asked a simple question.  No need to get lit. Hugs, Devlyn

We each possess the right to make our own decisions.  We are free people, free agents.  No one owns us.  No one has the right to make decisions for us.

This subject is highly personal.  I will not make judgements about some one, or some group of people within our community, whose experiences are different from mine.  I have to trust they know their personal situation better than I ever could, and not get into arguments over hypotheticals.

It is called respect.

This topic should have been locked the moment it was posted.

I have to say this. The words I have written before have never been intended to be hurtful. They never were intended to create groups. They were not judgmental. They were simply sharring wisdom that came to me from working with countless trans people and my own transition. I actually lived what so few live. That does not make me better than anyone but I do know what I am talking about and if you don't agree that is totally ok with me. I really don't care. Lord knows I see a ton of posts in this section of the forum that I feel belong in a different section, I don't get upset I just ignore them.

Now I realize that a lot of trans people hear what they want to hear and when they see something they don't like they lash out. My only response to that is hey this is the internet....... If you have to last out at someone on the internet how can you be ready for the real world?

Finally my words are targeting transsexual women. A transsexual is a woman yes indeed. They yearn to do whatever is possible to be a woman. That often includes such things as FFS, BA, tons of work and finally SRS because SRS is part of the process. They may not have had SRS but they sure as heck want and yearn for it because it completes the process and gives them what current technology can offer to be as real a woman as they can.

I was not talking to the people that don't want SRS. Hey there is nothing wrong with that its your call.............I just was not talking to you.

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 11, 2013, 08:03:30 PM
That is simply inaccurate if you look at the breakdown of posts. The thing all of the stealth post-ops who are in favour of disclosing have in common? A lack of desire to judge those who don't. They all start with "no, you don't have an obligation to tell," and then go on to say but this is why it can be a good idea or this is why I do it. Because we get it, we understand why you would make that choice.

The post-ops I've seen make judgmental comments regarding disclosure weren't stealth and certainly hadn't transitioned young.

And ya, it does make sense to divide into silly groups. Because the people who are stealth and post-op have experience, and the rest of you have hypotheticals.

My own partner knows about my history. My choice. Not my obligation.

I'm going to bow out of this conversation because it's causing drama.  Like I said from the beginning it's everyone's choice to decide for themselves.  And while I have my reservations about how a healthy relationship being forged without disclosure, I did ask for people to enlighten me and provide another perspective (something which I thank Calico for).  On my part, I never intended to judge because I can understand why people choose it.  If it did come across that way, I do apologize.

But I won't join the notion that we should divide into groups.  I value the experience of people that have lived through it.  Post ops have direct knowledge on what pre-ops don't.  Still,  I really don't like the seperation tactics I've seen some transwomen do (not including you) and don't want part in it.  All post ops were pre ops one day.  Let's not forget that.

On the direct knowledge front, there is an interesting thing I never thought about.  Earlier in my life I had corrective surgery to "fix" a genital defect I had.  Much of that was a long time ago and I see know reason to bring that up to a partner.  Should I bring that up?  Honestly, I don't feel like I should, though, I probably will have to if it comes up.  Still, it's something long past and irrelevant at this time.  It doesn't change who I am and isn't being decietful.  I suppose SRS feels like that for a lot of post-ops.  And I don't blame you for that.  Still, I don't know if I can choose the non-disclosure path myself.   Nontheless, I respect anyone who does choose it.

First of all, Sarah, I just want to tell you that you are one of the people here that I absolutely respect without equivocation, and I appreciate so much the thoughtful, often brilliant, things you say here.  You are a gift.

Now, I have thought about this for a bit and I am going to give you all my actual thoughts on this business of obligations.  I know it will be too much of a soapbox for some, and I am sorry (kind of,) but I have to say this.

Saying it is morally wrong to not disclose is loaded with some pretty terrible subtext. Implicity it says that trans people are gross, that the feelings of transphobes and homophobes (these are the people that would be disgusted by the idea of "being tricked" by a trans person, right?) are more important to protect than our own feelings.  I guess because we agree that we are disgusting?  I would never disclose to a potential partner out of concern or in consideration of the terrible people out there who hold horrible, destructive worldviews.  Never.  I would do so only for my own internal reasons, or in consideration of the bond being created with somebody I like a lot.

I will freely admit that the social contract (which is written by the heteronormative majority btw) probably does currently state that trans people should always disclose their status no matter what.  However, when the social contract is unjust, the persecuted and their allies have an obligation to stand against it, in my opinion.  I hate to take an argument in this direction, but I'm gonna...  50 years ago there were people that were disturbed by the idea of using a toilet after a person of color, among other horrible things.  The social contract of that time basically agreed with them, even enacted laws that supported that way of thinking. The people being told they were worthless and lesser at that time created a whole movement against it and things changed.

Maybe we need to stand up against what society tells us, especially when it is so demeaning.  We probably never will tho, because we can't agree on much of anything and can't even get along with each other half the time.  We take all these distict groups and we try to put them under an umbrella and pretend we are all the same in the name of solidarity and for the power in numbers (even though consolidated we are still a super minority.)  It is a great and noble idea.  However, we want to pretend there aren't lines drawn between us underneath the umbrella, but the reality is we are disparate and have often competing agendas.  With the dynamics that actaully exist, any hope of all of us presenting a united front almost seems naive, especially to people that have been watching this for a while.

I personally do like the idea of coming together, and even totally support coalescing with the power held by the LGB community in hopes that maybe we can get some rights so that maybe one day we won't be so marginalized.  But then I see people within this community turn on each other, time and time again, and I wonder how can we even believe in it anymore honestly?

Sarah, I respect where you are coming from.

I only found fault when you failed to respect a cis opinion, even though she had not read the entire thread. If she had not been honest, and instead, kept that information (she hadn't read the whole thing) to herself, it seems you would not have taken issue with her post.

Ironic, since this is a thread about MTF's disclosing their past as men, and that information may cause others to take issue with us.

Really though, Sarah. You have made great points and I have learned from them. I only took exception when you ignored a cis opinion because she admitted to not reading the entire thread.

Your points though, are valid, smart and quite inspirational.

Peace,
Tori

Well, I don't know if it is always pre-op/post-op on the question of disclosure. I've had oral sex with someone in the last week and I didn't disclose. It was just something I did (that I shouldn't have done). But I shouldn't have done it because I have a BF not because of I should disclose because I might get hurt. I don't hook up (or even talk to) people who are potentially violent. And yeah you can tell if a guy is capable of murder. The guy wanted to have vaginal sex too and tried until I slapped his hand away and told him I was having my period. So, he didn't know that much I know.

Am I morally abhorrent for not disclosing? I don't think so. Was it smart? I don't know. I like to live life and make the best choices I can given my circumstances. Plus far too many trans girls are way, way too cautious and barely leave the house. I didn't do this to stay in. So people need to make their own decisions. But what I hope for each and every person here is to try what I try to do: LIVE. And often times, that requires not disclosing, especially up front. Now, I might not have the most experience but I am dating and have had sex and prolly coulda had a lot more. So, I think I know a lil something. Not much. But a lil. 

Everyone has to live by their own standards of ethics and it is a balance between what YOU need and what you feel is right.

After SRS in 1974, I did not disclose anything to anyone. I was thankful that horrid business was behind me and I just wanted to forget about it. I did not even disclose to my first husband and nobody around me knew. I didn't feel bad about it - I felt I was entitled to my privacy.

When I remarried in 1980 I made the decision to disclose to my second husband because I realized that stealth is fragile and can be shattered at any time quite unexpectedly and if my stealth was broken, I wanted him to be prepared. He took it remarkably well and we were even closer for my honesty. As it turned out, my background leaked out a few years later but I didn't even know it until much later. My  husband was my greatest defender and kept the crap away from me.

Now, so many years down the road, I prefer to be upfront. If someone can't handle my ancient medical history, I will not waste my time with them. On the other hand, I do miss being "a woman without an asterisk".

It is a tough choice and I respect every woman (and man's) right to make it for themselves.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on December 11, 2013, 09:18:10 PM
Well, I don't know if it is always pre-op/post-op on the question of disclosure. I've had oral sex with someone in the last week and I didn't disclose. It was just something I did (that I shouldn't have done). But I shouldn't have done it because I have a BF not because of I should disclose because I might get hurt. I don't hook up (or even talk to) people who are potentially violent. And yeah you can tell if a guy is capable of murder. The guy wanted to have vaginal sex too and tried until I slapped his hand away and told him I was having my period. So, he didn't know that much I know.

Am I morally abhorrent for not disclosing? I don't think so. Was it smart? I don't know. I like to live life and make the best choices I can given my circumstances. Plus far too many trans girls are way, way too cautious and barely leave the house. I didn't do this to stay in. So people need to make their own decisions. But what I hope for each and every person here is to try what I try to do: LIVE. And often times, that requires not disclosing, especially up front. Now, I might not have the most experience but I am dating and have had sex and prolly coulda had a lot more. So, I think I know a lil something. Not much. But a lil.

first and formost...giggdy giggdy.
its all about having fun and enjoying life which your doing :) right on

Life is full of land mines.    I don't think that we are obligated to tell those we become involved with every little detail about our past lives, nor do they need to tell us absolutely everything about theirs.  However as transgender men and women, I do think that we need to consider how the people we become involved with feel about the GLBTQ community.   If we become involved romantically with individuals and their families that strongly disapprove of  anything but heterosexual romantic relationships we are sitting on an emotional time bomb and we will always live in fear of being found out.   We will again feel trapped like we felt before we transitioned to our true selves.    And if we have not had surgery then there are things that we just can't hide and we will be found out.

If the people we become romantically involved with love us for whom we are and don't care if they become involved with a trans person and their families feel the same way, then it's just a matter of a personal inner decision as to wether we tell our partner or not.   Also if our partner expects a family and children, then we will need to give some reason as to why we can't procreate.   Also there is the matter of how we communicate our health issues to our romantic partner.   If we are young transgender women, our partner will in time notice that we never have our period or we have to fake one the rest of our lives until we reach menopause.

I don't feel that we have an obligation to tell our partner everything about our pasts,  but in close personal relationships there are some things we can't hide or fake over an expended relationship of years.    Also living with a spouse that hates transgendered people would be the same life of fear we faced before we transitioned and we would be back in our closet again dreading that at any moment our past would catch up with us and unable to share personal health issues that many couples share inorder to cope with every day life.

This is just how I feel, and what I think as a 67 year old transgender who only came out of the closet late in life,  and doesn't try and mess with people's perceptions of herself.   Some people see me as a woman, some as a cross dresser, some as an eccentric and as a senior citizen some people who just don't see me at all.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on December 11, 2013, 11:04:14 AM
It's a simple question that everyone is making hard. If you're pre-op you must disclose at some point. If not, it's up to you. It's no one else's business to say anything otherwise or to poke and prod people. No offense but most of the moralizing on this thread is from pre-op women telling post-op women if they don't disclose they can't have a healthy relationship. That ain't true.

I didn't directly want to say this but now that is has been mentions I will have to agree.
during the pre-srs period if you intend to take things to the sexual level you just can not, not disclose the situation..

Now I will admit that I had a relationship pre-srs and it did end due to issues on both side of the relationship, but when it ended I decided to wait, this was due to personal issues mainly with big-time body dysphoria.

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 11, 2013, 08:03:30 PM
That is simply inaccurate if you look at the breakdown of posts. The thing all of the stealth post-ops who are in favour of disclosing have in common? A lack of desire to judge those who don't. They all start with "no, you don't have an obligation to tell," and then go on to say but this is why it can be a good idea or this is why I do it. Because we get it, we understand why you would make that choice.

The post-ops I've seen make judgmental comments regarding disclosure weren't stealth and certainly hadn't transitioned young.

And ya, it does make sense to divide into silly groups. Because the people who are stealth and post-op have experience, and the rest of you have hypotheticals.

My own partner knows about my history. My choice. Not my obligation.

Sarah7 - I have nothing for respect of you for your posts, and that you defend those who have made choice's from those who are unknowing, unwilling, and or just well like you put it  "hypotheticals".

LearningtoLive - I love you doll just as many others here, you ask questions and genuinely want to gain more knowledge and don't seem to judge anyone even if their opining or feelings differ from yours.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 11, 2013, 08:04:04 PM
But, Sarah, isn't this what someone does to someone else if they don't tell them?

"To decide for me what I should be doing in my life"

Hugs, Devlyn

Dev - I love you as well, you have posted in several of my topics and have even gave me good advice from time to time. While I understand your comment here- sometimes it isn't so much as being a parent but doing what may be best for themselves or in my case "myself" also a note as an opinion sometimes healthy relations can became established even with secrets or off limit areas are on both sides of the fence. as I stated earlier he knows there are some things I don't wish to talk about and he respects that and as I with him and a couple of his areas, doesn't change to fact we love and care for each other or even damage our trust of one another.

on an ending note I feel that this topic has gotten a lil hot, and does need to cool down a bit, its a very personal topic for me as well but I am trying to take the 3rd person view and learn new things as well.
Cant we all just get along?

Hi,

For my self it would have saved a lot of heart ache and anger, having said that you have to go back to 1947 when i was born  no one would have known   i was different , i was fortunate in i accepted what i was, just had no words to explain that, or could i, at age 10, i knew .

So even in the 50's you keep your mouth shut unless you wonted a quick trip to the nut house, and have your life taken from you. i was very aware of that even at a young age.

had my birth cert's been what we can now have in Germany and open document Birth cert, till i was old enough to say in words what i was, not be told by some Dr. then things would have been very different .

Personaly yes i would have been open  it was not the time or place to do so plus there were  other details that may have and i know would have come to light that would have put my life in danger so my Mom shielded me ,

If you are looking at life or death in the face at a  very young age and you cant talk about things , what would you do. my answer is at an age that you are old enough then yes open up.

At the time when  i  was married age 24 my past was closed down and a mind blank for close on 10 years, from birth till age 10.and by that time i thought every thing was okay , was it , no  till 20 years ago then it came out by then we had our family ,

I can look at my background and past and say what if , theres just no point it wont change who i am now or then

Every thing is out in the open and is part of my life history and past. we must not so much for get our past just live our life be who we are , and work through  what went on then,

I wont say  whats happened to myself will be the same for others point is we can not live our life through another we are all different and have our own life to live and how we see things that will be best for our selfs and others around us,

...noeleena...

This topic wasn't worth the casualties.

Quote from: calico on December 11, 2013, 11:58:36 PM

LearningtoLive - I love you doll just as many others here, you ask questions and genuinely want to gain more knowledge and don't seem to judge anyone even if their opining or feelings differ from yours.

Thank you Calico.  I genuinely appreciate it.  I didn't want anyone to walk away feeling judged or ostracised and it saddens me that it became a post-op vs pre-op thing.  And it's so silly in my view because one day many pre-ops will become post-ops themselves (myself included) and all post-ops were pre-ops. 

Quote from: Jamie D on December 12, 2013, 04:53:33 AM
This topic wasn't worth the casualties.

I don't know who left, but I hope they consider coming back.  There is no reason for anyone to feel unwelcome.  At the end of the day, the whole point of transitioning is to do what's right for you.  And what's right for you, might not be right for someone else.   That applies to this situation as well. 

Let's all get along and respect one another. 

Quote from: Jamie D on December 12, 2013, 04:53:33 AM
This topic wasn't worth the casualties.

No it certainly was not.

Quote from: gowiththeflow on December 11, 2013, 11:18:37 PM
first and formost...giggdy giggdy.
its all about having fun and enjoying life which your doing :) right on

Uh, I don't if I meant it that way. Hmm, my BF is really hurt and I didn't expect that. I'm really ashamed and I'd give anything to take it back. Though, ironically, he is being so incredibly nice now.

Quote from: Jamie D on December 12, 2013, 04:53:33 AM
This topic wasn't worth the casualties.

Just finished reading up on everything since the topic was reopened and I liked all of it. There were a bunch of good topics discussed since the beginning and nobody seemed bitter despite the touchy nature.

I'm sorry, I had no intention of alienating any one by posting the question. I got it from the ftm site and thought it interesting. I'm pre-opt hopefully to become post opt. at my age it might be hard for some to not know with out telling them  my birth gender. also at my age the question could be totally  irrelevant  because both parties could care less. Although I'm hoping to turn out to be gorgeous

Quote from: evecrook on December 12, 2013, 01:01:37 PM
I'm sorry, I had no intention of alienating any one by posting the question. I got it from the ftm site and thought it interesting. I'm pre-opt hopefully to become post opt. at my age it might be hard for some to not know with out telling them  my birth gender. also at my age the question could be totally  irrelevant  because both parties could care less. Although I'm hoping to turn out to be gorgeous

I'm sure you will be. I understand your concerns though because I have them myself lol. I'm worried about my feet looking too big, especially for my height and for a woman's feet. I might not be able to be as stealthy as I'd like to >:(

It happens. We all give into some form of temptation at some point. Your boyfriend is still there so he obviously loves you and will forgive you with time. That's what life is all about. We make mistakes and learn from them. And yeah hurting someone does suck cuz then you feel bad. But at least you were honest with him about it so their is room to grow

Quote from: Joanna Dark on December 11, 2013, 09:18:10 PM
Well, I don't know if it is always pre-op/post-op on the question of disclosure. I've had oral sex with someone in the last week and I didn't disclose. It was just something I did (that I shouldn't have done). But I shouldn't have done it because I have a BF not because of I should disclose because I might get hurt. I don't hook up (or even talk to) people who are potentially violent. And yeah you can tell if a guy is capable of murder. The guy wanted to have vaginal sex too and tried until I slapped his hand away and told him I was having my period. So, he didn't know that much I know.

Am I morally abhorrent for not disclosing? I don't think so. Was it smart? I don't know. I like to live life and make the best choices I can given my circumstances. Plus far too many trans girls are way, way too cautious and barely leave the house. I didn't do this to stay in. So people need to make their own decisions. But what I hope for each and every person here is to try what I try to do: LIVE. And often times, that requires not disclosing, especially up front. Now, I might not have the most experience but I am dating and have had sex and prolly coulda had a lot more. So, I think I know a lil something. Not much. But a lil.

Assuming your boyfriend knows your history, why would you go behind someone's back who was man enough to accept you for who you are and give out head? Do you not have any idea of how lucky you're to have him?

 :police:

I just want to say something from a Moderators point.

For a variety of reasons we are very short on the ground at the moment and those of us who are around are working crazy hours on top of our normal lives.

There is no way that I can physically read every single post in every single thread.

We are dependent upon YOU the members to follow ToS and to report stuff that upsets you.

Please do so.

And please please please think of how your post may be perceived by someone else.

None of us are even close to perfect, most of us are not even close to being capable of dealing with our own situations current and past; including me.

Lets reflect on that.

We have no one who gets close to understanding and accepting us except ourselves.

Lets reflect on that.

Please.

Cindy

Quote from: Cindy on December 14, 2013, 01:56:03 AM
None of us are even close to perfect, most of us are not even close to being capable of dealing with our own situations current and past; including me.

Lets reflect on that.

We have no one who gets close to understanding and accepting us except ourselves.

Lets reflect on that.

Please.

Cindy

well put Cindy

Quote from: Doctorwho? on December 08, 2013, 02:16:28 PM
Well I'm 30 years downstream from SRS, and despite being partially anatomically male at the time, I grew up as mostly female thanks to parents so far ahead of their time they were almost in the next galaxy!!!

So obligation to tell? NOPE!

Would I? YEP!

When? Quite early on actually and well before we move beyond casual friendship.

Why? Because I want to test their reaction to find out whether they are worthy of my affections or even interest. If they react badly I'm going to eject them from my life so forcefully they are going to wonder what the  heck just hit them. If they react with a reasonable or questioning response THEN and only then do we have anything worth wasting my time on. So I don't worry about them rejecting me, but they sure as heck better worry that I won't reject them.

Basically I'm almost arrogant enough to think that rare people like us are special and superior and we don't want to be wasting our time on a boring "norm" who isn't worthy of it! ;) (oh and please note the wink!)

So does this mean I am fully out and open? NOPE!

Explain...? Well at work or in casual social situations I don't see the need to tell anyone about something which happened so long ago that most of them weren't even born.  The only exception I make to this is if I think that telling someone will serve a useful purpose, such as for example enabling me to educate my fellow medical students about how to react to something like that - and of course to show that that with some of us, and contrary to popular belief, there simply are no tell tale signs...

But your signature says you identify as CIS - how does that work? Well I didn't experience gender dysphoria, I was intersex, I didn't have much difficulty getting my treatment and after this long I certainly don't have any issues - I also tend to assume most cis privileges, so its not a perfect fit, but then nor are any of the available labels and cis happens to be the closest I can find. Also it is a tenet of this site that people have the right to self identify as they wish.

I think dr who nails this pretty good. for an older transitioner  like myself I doubt I'd have to worry about people not guessing and even if they didn't the older partner would most likely not care any way.  I think its more of a question on whether you want to be with that person in what ever capacity  regardless  of their past. Of course. unless you just want sex.     

For me it depends.a one night stand or fling of lust and probably someone I won't see again,probably not.friends maybe if they can be trusted but as someone who will be stealth (or at least try and disown those who out me) I feel its on an 'need to know' bases and nothing more.so if someone needs to know and I feel they should,then I will.but frankly no one is entitled to my past or who I am,I give it freely or not at all.

I haven't read this entire thread, so I can't comment on what others have said. Nor can I really honestly say for myself what my take on it is as I have yet to be put in that situation. I do know I had the desire to transition before meeting my last partner, and I buried it for her sake and tried to live and be with her as the man she wanted. The result was me feeling miserable for the two years it took the relationship to end. And having finally come out to her after the relationship died she told me she knew the whole time and that it's the reason she stopped loving me. Whether that's true or not, I don't know.

The lesson there is denying who you are only causes pain. And, a persons past is what makes them who they are. I lived, for better or worse, what probably amounts to half my life as a man. It shaped me, molded me, and had a big impact on who I am. The pain, the awkwardness, the confusion, it's all a part of me. And for me to be in a relationship pretending that it never happened is not only a lie to my partner, it's a lie to myself.

Plus my mom chronicled the first 18 years of my life with a encyclopedia sized set of photo albums. It's the only thing of hers I have left, and I have no plans to get rid of it or hide it, and that's a hard thing to explain to a SO without telling them.  ;D

Well, I'm only just starting on the road, so it'll be a long time before I'm ready to have ANY kind of sexual/romantic relationship as a woman. But here's what I've learned from my not-so-great attempt top live as a man: secrets always come out, and the always, always hurt.

My wife and children are devastated by the discovery that I'm trans. They feel lied to. They can't trust their emotions or even their memories any more because suddenly the person they thought they knew as their husband or father don't seem to be that person any more ... and maybe wasn't ever that person ... so what does that do to all the love they placed in me when they thought I was a man? They're confused, they're uncertain, they're scared, they feel betrayed ... and are they angry about that? Hell yeah!

Now, I try to tell them that I always loved them and always will, that I never lied to them or pretended to love them when I didn't. But they just don't know whether to believe that any more. And it's killing me.

So when I'm at a point to have a relationship with someone else that is going to involve any kind of emotional commitment between us, I'm going to make damn sure that the person I'm with knows exactly what they're getting. That way, if they're still interested, I'll feel secure. I won't ever be afraid of what might happen if they ever found out. I won't have to tell little white lies about growing up as a girl, or have to remember to get my story straight, or explain how come I know so much about sport and military history. I can relax ... and, if it ever comes to this, which I pray it does, I can know that I am loved form myself, as I truly am ... which is all I've ever wanted in the world.

Quote from: Katie on December 11, 2013, 08:21:25 PM
Finally my words are targeting transsexual women. A transsexual is a woman yes indeed. They yearn to do whatever is possible to be a woman. That often includes such things as FFS, BA, tons of work and finally SRS because SRS is part of the process. They may not have had SRS but they sure as heck want and yearn for it because it completes the process and gives them what current technology can offer to be as real a woman as they can.

I was not talking to the people that don't want SRS. Hey there is nothing wrong with that its your call.............I just was not talking to you.

Trans women who doesn't want SRS still does form part of the transexual women group too. I also find problematic this sentence "gives them what current technology can offer to be as real a woman as they can." or this one "They yearn to do whatever is possible to be a woman". It's not about being what you already are, but fixing your body.

If a man loses his penis, and then he needs to take HRT and undergo surgery to create another one, would you say that he was happy to do anything possible to be a man again?

Please, don't reduce us to body parts.

morally id say its pretty low on the list of offenses but i still see it as an obligation to let your partner know. actually from what i understand of ftm srs itd be hard not to let them find out ( i mean absolutely no offense to any ftm reading).

regardless. if you cant share that with them, how intimate can the relationship be?